Str AA - Bare Handed Vs Weapons

[RoguePyro]

<div></div><div>Okay, Lets get started on this.</div><div></div><div>So far from conversations and experience, I have found that the Str AA line is most useful leveling up. Given the rapid progression possible in todays game environment, the scalability of the AA line is a great benefit. With the traditional Mastercrafted weapons, you always experience a decline in damage towards the end of the tier. I know when I was leveling up, before I picked up the STR AA line, my damage suffered the last few levels before you gained access to next tier weapons. With the STR line, this just doesn't happen, as your fists scale with you each level.</div><div></div><div>I think most of us can agree that STR AA and bare handed is very viable pre-70. </div><div></div><div>The question I want to start a discussion on is when to switch? </div><div></div><div>Personally I am still using STR AA until I get my epic. I sadly only hit the 70 level cap the night before RoK came out, so was unable to raid a lot and gain the fableds many of you were/are using. Given how easy the epic is to acquire, I decided to just wait and get it before re-specing. </div><div></div><div>Please discuss in the thread your own opinions and experiences and I will update the OP as we go along. Given that this is a hot topic and there is no definite yes or no, I think having our reasons documented in the thread will be more helpful for new players to make their own decision. I just ask that we all stay on topic and keep attacks to a minimum. </div>

[Tuda]

<p>I am newly back to eq2 and i decided to pick the Monk as my class for tanking instead of the warrior which is trditional for me.</p><p>I havent even planted my first AA yet (just received it last night) but had done some research on what to expect.</p><p>I have learned that monks fight best (dps wise) bear fisted and i watched this myself this weekend equiping and unequiping my wraps and staff. So as for the bare fist fight (no weapons in my pri/sec slots) i fully agree and accept happily.</p><p>As for going STR in AA and when to switch... I am not sure, I think the time to switch would be when I plan to look into raiding and tanking for a raid. </p><p>I am still learning, however I`m sure there are more viable paths to take as a Monk to be a "survivable tank" then STR for Avoidance/Mitigation which is the one thing we can rely on to survive the big hits. (well besides a healer thats paying attention <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p>

[Herme]

<p>I may be the exception here as I am fully mastercrafted/mastered/ad3/half adorned and have previous experience on a higher level monk.</p><p>Personally I went 44862 int and am 4443 wis with 41 AA at level 35.  I prefer the weapons because I can't stand having that loss of stats, health, power and possible adornment options.  Just this tier I switched from the heal proc on my weapons to the +def adornment for 1 handed crushing. And still while tanking I notice on my parses I'm usually about twice as high as another similar equipped, similar level monk I group with in guild who went the str route. </p><p> I will always say go with the weapons over bare handed, but then again, I have the higher level cash flow that many don't.  I've seen a lot more new players to the game recently than I have over the last few years.  There's nothing wrong with saving your money for: 1) the next tier, 2) higher level masters 3) tradeskilling by going with the str route, personally it's not for me.  I can spend 10 plat on my level 32, 42, 52 monk for upgrades and make it back in a few hours easily enough to where it doesn't affect me much.  </p><p>Until I see someone able to outtank and outDPS me or out solo me going the bare fisted way I won't switch.</p>

[Teyaha]

<p>the above poster hit the nail on the head (with his fist!)</p><p>if you're new like me, 4/4/8 str should be where you begin. many reasons for this. firstly, just keeping yourself in mastercrafted armor every 10 levels starting at 22 will take you nearly all 10 levels to afford, and that's without buying new weapons. imbuing is out of the question entirely. the game is old, such things have had their prices overly inflated to meet the larger pockets of older players. master crafted gera isnt too bad - about 25g per piece on unrest at 22. but unless you are getting lucky with rares from t3 harvesting, are NOT crafting yourself, and are finding adept 1 books that actually sell it will take a while to get enough for all of the mc pieces.</p><p>also this frees up cash for the adept 1's of abilities that have a long time between upgrades, ilke our group haste and the multi hit CA which appears to upgrade every 12-16 levels. </p><p> this also saves you money so when you DO hit 70, you can afford the fabled weapons (which, according to these boards, is when weapons truly overtake bare fists in raw dmg)</p>

[RoguePyro]

I can agree that if you have the high cash flow and experience of other characters, that the STR AA line may not be for you. I still like it though, for the scaling of your fists vs your level. I first picked up Str AA at level 40, while using lvl 32 MC weapons and I saw an enormous difference in my damage. Plus not having to worry about finding weapons was rather nice. Its a given that the AA line won't be the best damage possible, but I still think is a solid choice for new players leveling up, or those with lesser cashflow. I'm more inclined to believe your having all adept3's and adornments may also have played a part in your higher damage.

[Alienor]

So, still the question: When to switch? Switch at all if not having the epic?Btw, any good weapons available in T7/T8 which are easily available (ie. quested/broker)?

[Herme]

At t7 there's closing time - Farmed in Unrest off first namedFists of Bashing and Fists of Pain - both out of HoS in KoSThere's the Swords of Destiny quest rewardAs far as t8, I haven't had the opportunity to browse the market much as my previous monk never made it past lvl 70 and then I played a guard to 80. But I believe there is a nice sticky up top about t8 fabled and legendary items and where they drop.

[Zash711]

So...I have decided to take the unarmed/Str AA route to leveling. I have noticed no drop in my ability to solo. It is on par and maybe a little better in someways than having weapons. I have decided to stay this way until upper lvl 60's or 70's till I can get some decent droppable weapons. My one question I have though: Is farming "Closing Time" doable solo? and if so...what lvl can you start farming it? Thanks Zash 50 Monk

[Herme]

It might be doable solo at 80, but the mobs are lvl 72+ heroics and then you have the named.  Thinking about it though...you could sprint/fd to get the keys to the house, FD around the ghosts and then clear the bar area if you're talented around level 75.  The hardest part would be killing the named, especially with the new nerf to DF.  But with the right gear I think it'd be possible to start at lvl 75.

[RoguePyro]

Question is, by the time you can farm it, do you want to? I see them on the broker for less than I can make in an average night of questing/fighting.Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts on when to switch? Like I said before, I'm just waiting til I have my epic since I never ran across anything worthwhile while leveling up. I was eyeing the Star of morning glory/Deklurim Cudgel duo until Epic's came out. I would only use them for a week if I had, so why bother?Anyone know what the break even point would be in terms of ratio anymore?

[Alienor]

<cite>Strayslayer@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote> But I believe there is a nice sticky up top about t8 fabled and legendary items and where they drop.</blockquote>Err.... of course <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Keikoku]

After talking with Lyndro, and asking if this line would be revisited, this is what was said:The brawler strength line was changed to remove the no weapon requirement.  It was added back ast the behest of the community on a whole.  Allowing use of the strength line with the epic would either mean re-evaluating the epic or re-evaluating the strength line.  It was an unpopular change originally.  Monks use that line to level up.  Changing it for the epic would make it much less useful for that.  I'm not going to flat out say no, but I'd put the chances of that happening as low.That was taken directly from the Allakhazam Dev chat that occurred today. I did inform Lyndro that there were some good suggestions here on the forums on this could be changed/looked into.  But as was said, chances are low. =(

[RoguePyro]

Awesome! Thanks digitalbandit! I'm just glad he actually knew the AA line well enough to describe it like that... He pretty much hit the nail on the head. What about the nay sayers? I know there are plenty more of you out there that dislike the STR line in any way shape and form. I'd like to get your input on it also. Most especially, I'd like to get some more info from those of you that leveled up without using Str line, what weapons did you use and such? I want to get a complete picture here, not just pro-Str line. And again.. if you switched, when, why, and where can I get some of those?

[Keikoku]

I'm 77 and I just switched, actually.  After looking at it, I figured I'd do it now than later for when I do get my epic.  I'm just glad the epic is crushing at least.  Makes all that time of fighting with no weapons worth it.  I am however, using the Pitchka's.  I've still noticed a huge difference in my killing speed.  Maybe it's just me, I dunno.  But I saw a lot of great ideas on this board about what to do with that line.  I just hope Lyndro and company take a look at it.

[Solu]

Fixing the STR line for the epic is easy enough.  Keep it as is with no weapons equipped and when secondary slot is empty you get the double attack but not dps buff.  Done, get to use your epic and keep double attack boost to auto-attack damage.

[jonatho]

eh ya barehanded is better, but i like the look of my weapons to much <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Herme]

Here's some empirical evidence for you hardcore numbers people.My monk is level 38, 45 AA. He is in full MC gear with all ad3s or master spells minus the taunts since I don't group often.(although my hate gen is mastered....)With my monk specc'edStr 4484 Int 44862He is doing on average 340 DPSWith str 448 agi 444 int 448 He did 420 DPS on avg with spikes up to 521 depending on my luck with crits.When I specc'ed him to 44862 int 4484 agihe averaged 230 dps with 1.6s delay pristine oak quarter staff duel wields and a pair of legendary lvl 38 fists.  I forget the name of them. If there were lvl 30s fabled on the broker I would test those as well.  If anyone wants me to test any easily gotten weapons from quests or open dungeons let me know and I'll start camping or questing so I can provide a bit more variety to the tests.As it is right now, I'm experimenting between survivability with the added DPS of 3 lines only going 448 and of going to at least the 4th ability for extra avoidance in str and int lines.  I will probably max out with 50 AA before I throw up any more test results.  If there are any other specs pre-lvl 70 someone would like for me to test out post them here and give me a few days.

[Solu]

If you are specing solo or dps going 4/4/8 in as many trees as you can is better than reaching for defense of any sort.  Especially true since another tier 2 skill adds to your utility.  Until 70 I am 4/4/8 STR/INT/WIS.  At 70 probably respec to 4/4/8 in STR/INT/WIS/STA with the balance in %hp since the other options are primarily mt choices.

[Herme]

<p>Why would you go wis and not sta or agi as your third road?  Especially as a solo player, which even though you didn't outright say it, I'm going to assume you are because you said "If you are specing solo or dps ... Until 70 I am 4/4/8 STR/INT/WIS"</p><p>IIRC wis is +18% chance to proc against multiple mobs and an extra AoE.  If you're running solo then you don't really want a lot of extra mobs on you.  </p><p>Sta the 2nd line is a decent sized debuff and IMO an awesome pull method to help you up your DPS and the third ability is a single target proc.  </p><p>Agi is a double attack CA(depending on if the first one lands or not) with a hefty reuse timer drop and the third ability permanently drops reuse timers by 12% with 8 AA pumped into it.</p><p>Currently my spec is Str 448, Agi 446 Int 448 but I'm also looking into checking out the sta line to see what it's like once I cap out my AA. </p><p>Disclaimer:</p><p>This is not a flame or an attempt to flame or trivilialize someone else's opinion, I'm just curious as to why he went that route instead of other possible routes.  Maybe he knows something I don't.</p>

[Solu]

<p>WIS v. STA v. AGI is an easy one.  Start by saying I was originally str/int/agi.</p><p>The agi attack drops recovery not reuse, third tier drops reuse.  Recovery lets you spam more attacks inside a window but only if you never auto attack.  Roughly 40% of my dps is auto attack, so spamming is a drop of dps.  The reuse lets me use my big guns more often but really I'm never waiting on a CA to mash so it didn't increase dps in the end.  Where agi line shines is tanking bringing your taunts, defense buffs, heals and cures up faster.</p><p>Bruiser soft spot is AE, wis gives you another stun/ae and a 16% chance at a good chunk of damage to everything around you.  WIS tier 3 scales in chance and damage and hits everything around you.  This ranges from 6-12% overall dps increase depending on how much group combat you see.  Fact of the matter is, solo or not you will fight linked mobs... a lot.  WIS helps.  Monks might get more ae I'm not sure.</p><p>STA ranged sta debuff is great but the tier 3 skill is low damage and single target and not crushing and only the chance scales not the damage. So top tier its a 24% at about 50% of my auto attack damage to a single target.  Very poor investment for dps especially with str line and its crush debuff that the wis line benefits from.  </p><p>But if I have to chose between poor dps increase with a single target start of fight debuff or a line that looks good on paper but offers nothing on a parse, for dps, then its sta.  Essentially str, int and wis in that order are the dps lines and sta is the better of the bad choices.  But end game it might be better to go sta to 5 for the debuff and the rest in AGI to make the most of the class tree choices.</p>

[RoguePyro]

Right now my current spec is str/wis/int. Once I get my epic and switch out, I will probably go Agi/Wis/Int and test it out. I like Wis line for the added AE.. although RoK is most about single targets, so I have considered swapping out of that if it becomes an issue once I start raiding.    Anyone that is one of them hardcore raidin' types want to chime in on their thoughts? Still looking also for a good time/weapon set to switch to weapons. And thanks for the numbers! Thats exactly what I was wanting for the thread.

[Herme]

<p>I'm going to look into this a bit more, but from the discussion I think I'm going to test out str, sta, in and str, wis, int.  As far as the crushing debuff, yes it debuffs the mob and when the wis line procs it will be beneficial, but the crush debuff is single target, and wis procs aoe, so I don't think it would make much of a big difference.  </p><p> I'm also looking into acquiring some fabled weapons off the broker.  Both 2 handed and 1 handed/duel wield to test DPS with.  Butcherblock broker sucks though, so it might have to wait until I can raid t7 for that test.</p>

[Tuda]

not to derail...but where could i find a good parser for monk in eq2?

[Errolflynn]

Go to your favorite search engine and look for "act eq2".Or try <a href="http://home.maine.rr.com/eqaditu/ACT/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://home.maine.rr.com/eqaditu/ACT/</a> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[RoguePyro]

Any updates on the testing?

[Adasci]

As I newcomer this confuses me quite a bit.I usually keep my tradeskill above my character lvl, and spend time farming rare stuff of tiers my char don't belong, for instance TS farming with lvl 17.I do rather fine when it comes to gold, due to legendary/master/named farmings with a bit of luck of course, therefore I too have the advanced books for my tradeskill, which is tailoring.Pretty much means, that I'm able to mastercraft myself out at this point, and I want to keep it that way. However, coming from "typical" mmo's, I can't see how barehand would out damage actual weapons, anyone may explain that one? What I've noticed is, that weapon damage apperantly does not affect skill damage. Though I'm doing fine crafting wise, I'm not mastered out, actually most of my skills won't go higher than adept. This might changes when I'm good enough to take on SH nameds. So far I'm having 4/1 in str and 2 in agi. I actually stopped going strenght when I read you had to be barehanded, gave me quite a shock, which is why agi is 2 now.I'd be thankfull for some input.

[Deeply]

My take on the fist v weapons is this ..Barehanded I lose valuble stats which weapons benefit me withIm in the lucky position to have several nice raid weapons which on the A.C.T parse blow barefists away.I did recently respec to see if I could improve my bareknuckle DPS,if it could be improved to a point that I would consider leaving my weapons behind .I did parse after parse after parse and though it was close ,, it wasnt close enough.The other down sides were the loss of resists , mana and Hps .Suffice to say im usually running round with weapons equipped.--Shirak-- 80 Monk----Crushbone----Reckless Abandon--

[ShashLigai]

<cite>Deeply wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did recently respec to see if I could improve my bareknuckle DPS,if it could be improved to a point that I would consider leaving my weapons behind. I did parse after parse after parse and though it was close ,, it wasnt close enough.</blockquote>However, was it close enough so that a player who wanted to RP monk with no weapons could still do respectible damage?

[Herme]

<p>If you wanted to go barehanded strictly for RP purposes yes, it's fine, but if you want to do hardcore raiding, I would suggest one or 2 of those AA mirrors so you could swap to a raid spec and equip your fabled weapons while raiding, and spec to your RP spec when not.</p><p>As far as testing goes, I ran out of free respecs on my card, and am currently lvl 50 monk with 64 AA.  I'm specc'ed 44862 wis, 44872 int with the other 14 points in the far left column of my monk tree and my heal maxed out.  Going strictly by the numbers my average zonewide parse is 340ish.  That's a little misleading though because while I'm running through zones I tend to train a lot and the way I have ACT setup it still parses those encounters that hit me that I don't hit.  My average parse when I do fight is around 550 and at level 44 fighting a group of heroic level 38s in zek I broke 1k parse.  </p><p>Crane flock is an astounding DPS ability, especially when coupled with me being below 30% hps and getting that huge crit bonus from the int line.  I think the 3 minute reuse timer is great and short enough to use regularly without it being too long of a wait.  IMO this is probably one of the best thought out abilities the devs have given us. The only downside is that it's entirely situational.  While original content through EoF content is group mob oriented, from what I've seen of RoK while playing my guardian, the mobs are solo, so once I hit 70 I'll more than likely spec away from wis and move to agi, sta, int full line specs.</p><p>I don't think eq2players shows adornments, but the way I'm specc'ed, I believe is a good DPS spec, and the way I'm adorned is primarily for tanking.  Agi and def adornments where possible with a smattering of DPS and Str thrown in.  In full MC since I have yet to find a legendary piece that would be an upgrade, I solo pretty well, and when grouped with my wife a lvl 46 bruiser, we can pretty much take on any even level content zone with minimal delays from HP regen.  </p><p>So to sum it up, 44862 wis, 44872 int, defensive adorned all MC gear(including CAs now since once t5 sets in the masters start getting to be more expensive than they're worth IMO) I solo pretty decently.  Just last night in SF I took out the lvl 48 heroic named shaka scathar(sp??) easily enough.  It all depends on your playstyle though.  I'm a soloer so I spec the way that will keep me alive and that fits my playstyle.  If I was grouping and going for DPS primarily, I would go with a combination of str, int, wis.  For group tanking I would take str to the 4th line and wis to the 4th line with the rest pumped into agi.  </p><p>I didn't outright state it, but so far in my experience, at the lower levels, these specs don't make much of a difference DPS wise, but do make a ton of difference as to your survivability or usefulness in your preferred playstyle.  Spec how you want until you have access to the better gear, then spec according to your play style.  Monks aren't like warriors where they have a big difference between tank spec and DPS spec, or dirges where their spec is according to the group, but if you look at the AA trees, there are slight differences that would improve your role in whatever route you decide to go, be it tank, dps, or solo.</p>

[Herme]

<cite>Adasci wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I newcomer this confuses me quite a bit.I usually keep my tradeskill above my character lvl, and spend time farming rare stuff of tiers my char don't belong, for instance TS farming with lvl 17.I do rather fine when it comes to gold, due to legendary/master/named farmings with a bit of luck of course, therefore I too have the advanced books for my tradeskill, which is tailoring.Pretty much means, that I'm able to mastercraft myself out at this point, and I want to keep it that way. However, coming from "typical" mmo's, I can't see how barehand would out damage actual weapons, anyone may explain that one? What I've noticed is, that weapon damage apperantly does not affect skill damage. Though I'm doing fine crafting wise, I'm not mastered out, actually most of my skills won't go higher than adept. This might changes when I'm good enough to take on SH nameds. So far I'm having 4/1 in str and 2 in agi. I actually stopped going strenght when I read you had to be barehanded, gave me quite a shock, which is why agi is 2 now.I'd be thankfull for some input.</blockquote><p>It's not so much that going barehanded in itself is a better route, but the way the AA spec is that makes it a viable option.  Once you get 17 AAs, you can pump str 448 which will give you a nice crushing debuff(a lot of your CAs are crushing even if your fists aren't) and also makes it so that your fists double attack 96% of the time.  That double attack is what gives barehanded it's DPS.  Do a /weaponstat when barehanded and it'll give you all the details to what your fists do, their proc rate, their base delay and I believe what type of damage they do.  If they don't give you the type of damage, then download ACT, run a few parses and look at your outgoing dmg.  The largest chunk of the pie should be what they do.  </p><p>Also, if it hasn't been states already, with MC or barefisted a good % to aim at for your auto attack damage should be in the 39-50% range, the higher % your autoattack the fewer you miss due to spamming combat arts.  One last note before I get back to work, barehanded is based on being a 2 handed weapon, NOT duel wield, so if you're expecting 4 attacks every time, it won't happen.  Hope that helps, if you have any more questions this is the place to post and ask.</p><p>BTW, vote for the devs to roll a monk on test.  We need all the help we can get.</p>

[Derang]

Here something everyone is forgetting about the STR line. Ill admit its ok while leveling up solo but once you hit 70-80 weapons do more dmg + its duel wield instead of using unarmed which is only 1 fist. You cannot increase fist skills beyond 400 at 80 which therefore makes you miss any mob yellow to orange a lot more than you would with weapons in your offense stance. This tree is now useless ever since EoF imho opinion something needs to be changed or allow the high end monks to use this tree without losing our weapons. STOP IGNORING US SOE!

[Herme]

<cite>Deranged wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here something everyone is forgetting about the STR line. Ill admit its ok while leveling up solo but once you hit 70-80 weapons do more dmg + its duel wield instead of using unarmed which is only 1 fist. You cannot increase fist skills beyond 400 at 80 which therefore makes you miss any mob yellow to orange a lot more than you would with weapons in your offense stance. This tree is now useless ever since EoF imho opinion something needs to be changed or allow the high end monks to use this tree without losing our weapons. STOP IGNORING US SOE!</blockquote><p>It's not just at lvl 70-80, if you can get your hands on some top of the line fabled weapons per tier weapons will beat out unarmed.  This tree was useless when introduced since top end fabled weapons have always performed better, given you more stats, and able to be adorned.  The biggest reason I don't like going barefisted is because you can't adorn your fists and you miss out on some really beneficial stats that way.  I use riposte adornments on my 1 handed weaps and +def adornments on my 2 handed bo.  </p><p>If you want numbers strictly speaking, they've been given, in a test with a constant environment leveling up, the str line will out DPS the other specs.  In my personal experience, I prefer the added tanking stats my weapons give me, the adornments and the damage types.  Also, leveling up, people aren't really concerned about their DPS.  If you spec the style that fits your playstyle, you can't go wrong.  Make sure you space your combat art spams enough to get in the autoattack, make sure you have an appropriate tier weapon(or fists) make sure you're close enough to the mob to hit with autoattack and ALWAYS upgrade your combat arts, if you can manage to do this, in my experience, the only players who will be able to outDPS you leveling up are DPS twinks, or mentors.</p><p> If you keep yourself upgraded and max twinked with just MC plan on spending about 10-20pp per tier. At level 50, I've already spent 16pp on my lvl 52 gear, and am about half adorned.  All of this has been funded solely by harvesting for 45 minutes every morning in Lavastorm.  I average about 6 rares per session, I sell those and make between 5-8pp a day.  You'll see a huge difference from treasured/adpt 1 to MC/adorned/ad3.  </p>

[DVang]

<p>Just thought I'd make a mention.  I have a 44 monk that was originally specced in the Agi line and wielding a (Legendary)Thulian Claw and a MC lvl 42 imbued cestus.  </p><p> I originally saw the STR line and thought it was weak, liking the stat bonuses from weapons.  After hearing some good stuff about the STR line I went ahead and used my free respec and went into STR line to try it.</p><p>While, I have not run a parser, I have found that I do much more damage and receive less damage than I did DW.  So far, this has only been fighting greens, green ^^^ heroics, and blues.  I have not tried against evens or tougher yet, but I generally don't solo those (as I typically quest rather than grind).</p><p> While I can see once getting into the 60+ range switching back to weapons if I can get some special ones, until then I have been converted to a STR believer.</p>

[Aull]

<p>The strgth line is "good" for a young brawler. It has been said by many bruisers/monks that at the end game weapons will be a better choice and makes the strgth line not usable and not usable with the epics!</p><p>It may be good while a brawler is at the low to mid levels, but the top brawlers weather monk or bruiser have said weapons will outshine the barefists at higher lvls are correct! </p><p>It is a shame that brawlers cannot utilize strgth line in the brawler tree while using the epic weapons or any weapon for that matter. With weapons it should not loose the ability to use pressure point, allow 20 dps mod and 15 to maybe 20 percent double attack, and still be able to use the repostie benefits as well. If not using weapons then it will work as it currently does. That is just my thoughts.</p><p>Again for the low lvls strgth line 4,4,8,&8 will do a decent job for a soloer and group content. The strgth line will help make you a bit tougher as long as you have eight points into the fourth ability down that gives a repostie chance.</p><p>Thanks</p>

[Bewts]

<p>First let me start off by saying that I am not a supporter of the monk STR line due to the limitations it puts on you.  I do support it for lower tier leveling however.</p><p>As an example I can use myself.  By no means raid geared, I run with </p><p>Star of Mornings Glory : 25 wis 10 int 75 Health 55 Power 112-208 4.0 Base delay 25 Haste 363 heat proc 2.0 per min</p><p>Ykeshan War Club : 35 Sta 28 Agi 115 Health 55 Power 73-115 2.5 Base Delay +1 crushing and a Stun proc</p><p>Both weapons are easy to obtain.  With no buffs and a clear Class AA tree, I run with 10355 Health 4991 Power 465 STR 337 AGI 573 STA with those weapons equipped.  Vice the weapons, I lose 245 Health, 110 Power and the obvious stats if you wish to subtract them.</p><p>In my opinion, as long as I'm not tanking I really could care less about the 245 Health and 110 power when mobs hit for 2k+ on me as a monk.</p><p>Now, looking at the UI this is the breakdown of with the weapons and again a blank sheet of mods from AA:</p><p>Glory: 365-677 4.0 Delay 16% Proc chance or 2.4 a minute!</p><p>Ykeshan: 247-439 2.5 Delay 10% Proc chance or 2.4 a minute due to the 4.0 delay being the primary number procs are based off of.</p><p>Now... compare that to barehanded just the STR tree 4/4/8:</p><p>Barehanded 249-416 2.4 Delay 7.5% Proc chance or 1.8 a minute</p><p>Throw in double attack for barehands and you see that the possible max melee damage before any other buffs/debuffs/modifiers IE crits, haste you are looking at in a single 4.0 second round (take the highest delay you are using) of 677 + 702 = 1379 for weapons and 1331 for barehanded.</p><p>So lets think about weapons versus hands for a minute and look at what we know.  Using a 4.0 delay weapon in primary significantly increases your proc rate.  Using weapons gives you procs to take advantage of that increased proc rate.  Using weapons give you more health, power and strength a thought not too important when you focus entirely on DPS and take all other factors out of it.  The ability to hit harder to hit mobs can be improved with weapons because they are +crushing based.</p><p>With barehands you can do just about as much potential melee damage in the same timeperiod as you can with a typical, easy to obtain weapon.  You cannot increase your ability to hit a mob.  You have a lower proc rate.  You lose typically up to 4 procs or 2 procs and 2 adornments.  You have less health, power.  Strength is made up mostly from the loss of weapons due to the added strength from the STR tree.</p><p>Now, I do know that increasing +crushing skills versus raid mobs is relatively futile, the modifier you need has to be significant to see even a small percentage of a difference.  I'm talking +100 crushing just to see that.  So we can throw that out the window versus raid content.  Versus heroic content I haven't seen much of a difference either versus yellow cons, but versus orange cons it 'seems' to help but I dont have raw info to determine that.</p><p>In my humble opinion, you may be able to meet JUST melee damage with easy to obtain weapons compared to barefists.  Beyond that though, you sacrifice potential damage from every proc, proc buff, adorn or otherwise you have.  You give up a little bit of health, some power; both nonfactors when just looking at DPS.  </p><p>From an AA perspective you can obtain Chi by going down the STR line, you would be able to still obtain the max crits from intelligence as well as getting Crane Flock from the wisdom tree but you would only realize the area affect hits because you'd already be double attacking at near 100% to begin with.  In short terms you might be able to make up or even surpass typical easy to obtain weapon setups by using CHI and or Crane Flock.  In a zonewide parse, you'd probably lose out though due to the loss of consistent DPS from procs.  On a side note, by taking the wisdom line you can make up most of that lost health from not using weapons by obtaining crane flock at the bottom of the wisdom tree.  Also, taking the STR line you won't be able to hit mobs easier, but you can drop their mitigation versus your crushing damage when you do hit them.  I don't think this makes up the difference, but with almost 700 less mit to crushing on the mob, it just might.  Close call, probably does versus most heroic content.</p><p>In regards to something not so obvious, you would be able to completely ignore any equipment that gives +double attack because with STR you'd be running  near 100% double attack all the time.  This would allow you to focus much more on +criticals which IMO is very significant.  Crits from what I understand can be anywhere from max damage to 1.3 times your max damage for melee; thats when you roll for a successfull crit and you hit the mob.  That basicially means if you can run 50% crits, you'd see a significant amount of your hits landing for anywhere from 419 to 545.  Thats almost a 25% increase in max potential damage from melee alone, not to factor your combat arts into the picture.  Monks who run with weapons... they are always looking for double attack to increase their max damage potential so with one less thing to worry about, you might be able to tip the scales in your favor by running barehanded and focusing on crits.  I offer no guarantee because I don't have the endgame items to verify such a claim by running comparitive parses.</p><p> 100% double attack, 50% critical is not without of reach in a STR setup - I'm at 100% DA and 33% crit in the STR setup currently - a dirge and a potion puts you at 45% crit.  Nor is running easily 120% Haste and DPS mods as well - 109% haste 31 DPS mod currently solo self buffed in STR setup - a dirge and an inquis or corecer put you right up there at those numbers.  In a group setting you could make up the difference in equipment until you obtain the end game weapons to bring your DPS up to the par with raiding monks.  Versus heroic content, I don't think anyone would be the wiser to your DPS numbers regardless of your choice.  Just use devastation fist a lot and your numbers should be comprable for DPS.  You are a paper tank though, so remember that if you go down the STR line.  There are far better choices if you wish to tank occasionally, even with the offer for uncontested avoidance from the STR line in claw reversal.</p><p>My personal preference is weapons, but I don't think you would be too far off a typical casual raider in DPS by using fists provided you werent thrown into a group that brought little to the table to bring you any forms of DPS.  I've found more often than not, when I do raid that many people don't know where to put a monk in a raid so we don't get many chances to realize our potential DPS.  Bear that in mind.</p>

[RoguePyro]

Yes I'm reviving this dead horse again. I have some time now to hopefully keep it up and clean it up enough to make it presentable. I'm going to guess that nothings changed really however... STR AA still good for leveling. Its the mysterious change over point that still has everyone scratching their heads. There IS no real solid, definite Change moment. I'm going to go through the info again and start putting it into the OP. Chime in with further observation or things you felt should be mentioned. I want to be fair to both sides of the argument for and against the AA line.

[Oh]

I "beleive" with the weapon revamp that MC weapons are MUCH MUCH better then spending those points into str and going with crit or someother line with your ap's. There are numerous threads on/about/dabble into this very topic.

[RoguePyro]

Alright... I'll just let the horse die. With all the changes they keep doing to items, its just too hard to predict and put out a must read statement on the issue it seems like. Maybe I'll try to revisit after I see the level spread and items for the LDON expansion...err I mean Shadow Odyssey.

[MadBarman]

<cite>Arshe@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>After talking with Lyndro, and asking if this line would be revisited, this is what was said:The brawler strength line was changed to remove the no weapon requirement. It was added back ast the behest of the community on a whole. Allowing use of the strength line with the epic would either mean re-evaluating the epic or re-evaluating the strength line. It was an unpopular change originally. Monks use that line to level up. Changing it for the epic would make it much less useful for that. I'm not going to flat out say no, but I'd put the chances of that happening as low.That was taken directly from the Allakhazam Dev chat that occurred today. I did inform Lyndro that there were some good suggestions here on the forums on this could be changed/looked into. But as was said, chances are low. =(</blockquote>It always annoys me when people quote this, not because it's wrong but because the dev's completely missed the point. When the changes to the strength line were put on test the brawler community complained because the change was rubbish. Instead of double attack there was 7.5% increase to combat art damage (at max points). Given most of a brawlers DPS comes from autoattack the increase to combat art damage was too small to be viable compared to the other achievement lines. No one would use the strength line at all. The feed back thread was full of dozens of ideas presented by brawlers as replacements or small changes to the unarmed strength achievement. In the end rather than use some of the ideas presented by the players it was decided to rever the strength line back to the unarmed double attack and not bother making any changes to it. In answer to the original question. The changes to how dual wielding works and the improvment of mastercrafted weapons makes the use of the strength achievements questionable. I'll explain why.While unarmed you are only swing one fist. Your unarmed attack is equivilent to a shop bought 1 handed weapon of your level. Before the changes a one handed weapon had a higher damage rating than a dual wield weapon. This gave the stength line better DPS as having 96% double attack meant you would, in effect, be dual wielding 2 one handed weapons.Dual wielding was then changed. All dual wield weapons were reclassified as one handed and had their damage ratings increased to equal previous one handed weapons. To balance this dual wielding weapons incurs a 33% penalty to attack speed. This removed the major advantage of using the strength acheievement line.With the improvement to mastercrafted weapons as well as the introduction of imbuements the strength line has lost a large part of its advantages. Now the main advantage is that you can level without having to buy new weapons.This is not the first time various different game mechanics changes have combined to the disadvantage of brawlers. Originally bralers had a different autoattack damage table to the 4 other fights (as we were meant to be the DPS tanks) when achievements were first introduced the int line + critical chance maxed out at a higher amount (22% i think, equal to what other fighters can get). This combined with our higher base autoattack damage to open a larger DPS gap than wanted between us and the other fighters. In response to this the devs reduced our critial chance achievement to what it is today (18%). A few updates later all fighters base autoattack damage was made equal, but brawlers did not get the critical hit chance back to what it had been originally. In this way 2 different changes made at different times have combined to reduce an aspect of our class.Our acheievments have always been substandard compared to warriors (especially guardians), I expect this trend to continue with the new achievements being added with the new expansion. Our acheivements need to be revamped to bring them more in line with other classes, but I doubt this will happen for a long while. Until then we can open doors, set off traps and click shinies on raids and harvest better than most other classes.

[Svann]

<cite>MadBarman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arshe@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>After talking with Lyndro, and asking if this line would be revisited, this is what was said:The brawler strength line was changed to remove the no weapon requirement. It was added back ast the behest of the community on a whole. Allowing use of the strength line with the epic would either mean re-evaluating the epic or re-evaluating the strength line. It was an unpopular change originally. Monks use that line to level up. Changing it for the epic would make it much less useful for that. I'm not going to flat out say no, but I'd put the chances of that happening as low.That was taken directly from the Allakhazam Dev chat that occurred today. I did inform Lyndro that there were some good suggestions here on the forums on this could be changed/looked into. But as was said, chances are low. =(</blockquote>It always annoys me when people quote this, not because it's wrong but because the dev's completely missed the point. When the changes to the strength line were put on test the brawler community complained because the change was rubbish. Instead of double attack there was 7.5% increase to combat art damage (at max points). Given most of a brawlers DPS comes from autoattack the increase to combat art damage was too small to be viable compared to the other achievement lines. </blockquote><p>I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems like you just said that our autoattacks are >50% of our total damage.  Im not seeing that.  Act shows autoattack to be close to 1/3 of my total damage output.  You may ask if I am losing dps from mistiming ca's but I dont think so.  Act shows my autoattack delay to be very close to what the /weapon command says it should be ideally.  </p><p>Unless I am wrong about that, a 7.5% increase to 2/3 of our damage output would not be insignificant.  Then again Im only L65 with L62 MC fistwraps.  Do things change at 80?</p>

[MadBarman]

It depends on what your fighting. My numbers for autoattack being most of my damage comes from zone wide parses in heroic instances. You may want to look at getting different weapons though. Monks have a lot of self haste and fistwraps do not make the best use of it because they are fast to begin with. Weapons with 2.5 or 3.0 second delay work well. Ideally you want your weapons to have a delay of about 0.8-1 second after haste. (this is just my opinion, others may disagree)

[Svann]

<cite>MadBarman wrote:</cite><blockquote>It depends on what your fighting. My numbers for autoattack being most of my damage comes from zone wide parses in heroic instances. You may want to look at getting different weapons though. Monks have a lot of self haste and fistwraps do not make the best use of it because they are fast to begin with. Weapons with 2.5 or 3.0 second delay work well. Ideally you want your weapons to have a delay of about 0.8-1 second after haste. (this is just my opinion, others may disagree)</blockquote>Thats it!  Im sure it must be lack of haste buffs/gear.  My fists are 2.5 and I think I normally end up just under 2.  So that could be better.

[Yliax]

I just hit around 75 with my monk.  Most of that time was using the strength line (though he is a revisited character I created before AA's were available so his first 20 lvls were with weapons...nightmare).  I switched to weapons around lvl 68 and honestly think I should have waited 'til 72 at least for the mastercrafted weapons.  until you start getting the weapons with the really nice mods on them you still do nearly as much damage without them.  That being said...the weapons start becoming necessity after that and it took a lot of killing to get my piercing and slashing skills up in level.  If nothing else it might be worth it to carry around one or two weapons you find in your travels to use as soon as you level to keep your skills up and then throw in your inv. until your next level.