Armourer reaction arts badly bugged

[Oakleafe]

My armourer got to level 50 before the last update and set of patches, and all was well enough.Since LU42 and the patches I've struggled to complete rush order writs (i.e. grind the levels) because successfully countering with my reaction arts has as much chance of giving a failure as a success.  Add in the number of critical failures that pop up and I'm having a really bad time. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />The issue is the same one that was fixed for the Sages.  Well, actually it is similar but worse.  The Sage issue happened on one or two of the failure types you react to, whereas the armourer appears to have a failure chance on all 6 failure types (and their varying levels).I have put in a /bug but what I couldn't say is whether the problem is for all armourers or just for the level 50 reaction arts, so I thought I'd put in a post here so that other armourers can feedback their current experiences.Would also be nice if Domino or whoever could confirm they are aware of the /bug and that it's being worked on.

[Motown]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have put in a /bug but what I couldn't say is whether the problem is for all armourers or just for the level 50 reaction arts, so I thought I'd put in a post here so that other armourers can feedback their current experiences.</blockquote>I've seen similar on my 57 armourer but don't have much to add in the way of specifics.  I'll pay a bit more attention in the next session and /bug it too.

[Snowdonia]

80 Armorer and I'm not seeing it. It's quite possibly only the level 50 range arts.

[Krelor]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>80 Armorer and I'm not seeing it. It's quite possibly only the level 50 range arts.</blockquote><p>Also not seeing it on my 80 armourer. </p><p>Side note, maybe I've not been paying attention closely enough - but aren't the reaction arts just one set for progress / durability now on the crafting window that don't need to be altered as you level?</p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Krelor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>80 Armorer and I'm not seeing it. It's quite possibly only the level 50 range arts.</blockquote><p>Also not seeing it on my 80 armourer. </p><p>Side note, maybe I've not been paying attention closely enough - but aren't the reaction arts just one set for progress / durability now on the crafting window that don't need to be altered as you level?</p></blockquote>Not exactly.  Yes, they are in the same window but they automatically update when you ding to the next tier.  Each tier has slightly improved stats, as a reward for you getting better at your craft.

[Motown]

Faulty arts that I've picked up:Strikes- RHM,OHMSteady Heat - SHW,SHD,HHD,HHW,HWAngle Joint - SRB,WB,OBHammering - RHM,OHMStoke Coals - HW,SHD,SHW,HHDBridle Joint - OB,SRBArmorer's Insight - No buffRHM = Red Hot Metal etc etcThey counter the reaction correctly as noted in the narrative text, but don't seem to guarantee success for that cycle.  This was my lvl 57-59 armourer doing the highest level rush orders possible.

[Freydinessa]

Hrmm, i haven't crafted for a while but my armorer when through the 50s after the update and had no problem finishing writs or countering the buffs. Now i come to think of it though, at the time i did notice that i'd not had the Armorer's Insight for a very very very, long time. Whether that's just coincidence and nothing more? can't be sure. But i know i've had it recently again.

[mindcooler]

I'm seeing the same thing on my armorer as he went from 70-71 (he's soon 72). Some events, even though they are successfully countered, do not lead to a success. I noticed the problem <b>instantly</b> and it makes tradeskilling, which I normally like, very irritating because I cannot use my reaction arts as I'm used to. I have several other tradeskillers: 70 weaponsmith, 73 woodworker, 73 jeweler, 71 provisioner, 54 alchemist and 58 tailor and they don't suffer from this annoying problem.

[Oakleafe]

Unlike when the sage reaction arts were bugged we don't appear to worth an acknowledgment from the devs, so can I ask armourers who are affected by this to continue to file the occasional /bug this until we know it's on their radar.  Many thanks.

[EverAfterIt]

I'm a 30 Armorer and I don't seem to see anything wrong.I counter, I don't get bad failures all that often, and I happen to get Armorer's Insight -- although not as often as my Prov. My only observation is the Armorer doesn't seem to get as much out of the "speed crafting" method as my other crafters, meaning when I try for more progress, I tend to not get as much as I would doing the same on say a Prov or Jeweler. Could just be how I'm using the keys though, maybe I haven't found the "magic" combination yet.

[Domino]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unlike when the sage reaction arts were bugged we don't appear to worth an acknowledgment from the devs</blockquote>Unlike the sage reaction arts, I don't seem to have a /bug in my queue yet ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Frijoles]

<p>Somebody please <i>/bug</i> this so it gets straightened out before I hit 50 in Armor crafting.</p><p>(Which I hope to do soon <b>if</b> I can find an <i>Advanced Armorer Volume 49</i> on the broker for less than a king's ransom!)</p><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unlike when the sage reaction arts were bugged we don't appear to worth an acknowledgment from the devs</blockquote>Unlike the sage reaction arts, I don't seem to have a /bug in my queue yet ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I've sent two bug reports so far Domino, sent in by character Medraut.  First was on the 21st and the second on the 22nd or 23rd when I had more information to share. Do I /bug the /bug system, as it's not getting our issues to you? LOL   Will bug again in a couple of hours time when I re-log in.

[Domino]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I've sent two bug reports so far Domino, sent in by character Medraut.  First was on the 21st and the second on the 22nd or 23rd when I had more information to share. Do I /bug the /bug system, as it's not getting our issues to you? LOL   Will bug again in a couple of hours time when I re-log in.</blockquote>Ok thanks <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />There's a number of reasons it might not reach me -- QA can't reproduce it, and conclude it's not really a bug, for example.  Or maybe they realize it's a code or some other issue, and it gets assigned to someone else.  Or, they might be just snowed under with other bug reports and haven't had time to test it yet.  I do try and skim the daily /bug report summary emails that go around but sometimes when I get busy I miss a few days and rely on QA to pass on the real bugs (often they are full of things that aren't really bugs, so it takes some filtering sometimes).  I'll try to be sure and keep an eye on the summary email for the next day or two so if it doesn't show up again anywhere I can follow it up!

[cooper9280]

<p>See, Domino, this is why we LUV you so much !!!</p><p>In your spare time (tee hee !), could you please give some lessons to the other devs on the benefits of COMMUNICATING WITH YOUR PLAYERS !!!!</p><p>You could have ignored these posts and just got on with the business of fixing the bug that was identified but then we would be sitting here with no love.  Instead, as always, you chose to take the proactive course of action.</p><p>3 thumbs up for Domino, may your work ethics rub off on the rest of the Devs.  And, please, please, please, keep up the great work !!!!!!</p>

[Rqron]

Ahhh then I was not seeing things ..I countered Jewelers insight with my 51 Jeweler last week and did NOT get a buff so this could be a broader issue then just armorer. I did not think much about it because ..very predictable... I got the icon making my last piece of the day so I did not cared much if I got the buff or not but afterwards I was wondering about this. I will need to keep an eye open for this.J.C.

[Oakleafe]

Insight issues are a different problem in my opinion.  I have been getting armourer insights on occasions and they have worked fine.  On my wood worker I rarely get the flashing pink light effect, but I do get the extra skill level.  On my jeweler I have definitely on one occasion had the insight and not had the flashing lights nor the extra skill points.  But I really don't think that Insight problems should be lumped into the specific issue that armourer general reaction arts are not working as designed.<b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Domino</span>, I have raised the bug issue as promised and I took great care to spell armourer as armorer, just in case some automated tools are being used.  As a side note, I am on the Runnyeye server so I don't know whether being an EU player sends bug reports via a different route but thought I'd mention it so you know (also explains my spelling).  Thanks for taking the time to explain how the whole thing works.  BTW, if you don't see a bug report in the next few days is it possible to get QA to view this forum note and see what's going wrong?  Thanks again.</b>

[Melena]

<p>Hallelujah.  I thought it was just me.  All through my armorer's 50s just constant failures and it was very difficult to make rush orders in time.  Even crafting grey recipes.. well let's just say my husband got an earful <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   I was leveling up a jeweler, tailor and woodworker in their 50s at the same time and had no issues with them.</p><p> Since I've dinged armorer 60, no problems at all.   </p>

[Domino]

Thanks!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    I'm sure if there's an issue we can track it down!

[Motown]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unlike when the sage reaction arts were bugged we don't appear to worth an acknowledgment from the devs</blockquote>Unlike the sage reaction arts, I don't seem to have a /bug in my queue yet ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Bugged it the at the same time I made my post on the 22nd.  Someone's holding out on you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Unfortunately(?!) I'm level 60 now and can't help test T6 any more.

[Gunsod]

Great work finding (and hopefully fixing) this.  I have been wondering why my jeweler is soo much easier to level up than my armorer and feel much better knowing there might be a real reason.

[Oakleafe]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />    I'm sure if there's an issue we can track it down!</blockquote>No "if" about it, there is an issue.It's been a week now and I've bugged the reaction arts issue every day except Sunday (didn't think it fair to bug on a day I didn't craft).  I'll be out of the 50-59 level range today or tomorrow so will report back on the 60-69 level range, but from  the above posts it appears only to be affecting 50-59 and 70-79.

[Domino]

Just confirming that QA is reading this thread (*wave* say hi, everybody!  They're awesome!) and I'm actually trying to reproduce the issue at the moment on my local server.  So far it's behaving perfectly for me and I haven't had any failures when I've correctly countered events (as a level 58 armourer).It also seems that my previous statement about how /bug reports circulate wasn't entirely correct, and apparently I don't actually see the emails from some of the live servers, including the UK ones.  I did follow up to make sure that they are going to QA, but if you happen to have a copy of what you wrote, feel free to post the details here too and it'll save me interrupting QA asking for a copy.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  In the mean time I'll keep poking this on my local server and hoping it'll misbehave for me, when I have time between the other things I'm doing this week.

[Oakleafe]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just confirming that QA is reading this thread (*wave* say hi, everybody!  They're awesome!) and I'm actually trying to reproduce the issue at the moment on my local server.  So far it's behaving perfectly for me and I haven't had any failures when I've correctly countered events (as a level 58 armourer).It also seems that my previous statement about how /bug reports circulate wasn't entirely correct, and apparently I don't actually see the emails from some of the live servers, including the UK ones.  I did follow up to make sure that they are going to QA, but if you happen to have a copy of what you wrote, feel free to post the details here too and it'll save me interrupting QA asking for a copy.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />  In the mean time I'll keep poking this on my local server and hoping it'll misbehave for me, when I have time between the other things I'm doing this week.</blockquote>Hello again Domino and thanks for the response.  Hello QA, thanks for coming to take a look.I'm afraid the /bug system doesn't have a recall/review facility that I am aware of and I've filed far too many /bug reports to keep copies of them.  However, this thread does already contain the basics of the issue.For me it looks like there's a small error in the programming logic that means a successfully countered event still goes to the RNG for a decision on success or failure, which isn't what happens else where (hence the bug report).An example of the issue:If I get the "failure icon" (made up term as I don't know what it's called officially) Heat Wave and I press Stoke Coals (the durability based reaction art) I may get a success (+18 +50) or a failure (-22) or a critical success or critical failure.  However, what I should get is just the chance of a success or critical success.I do always get the "successfully countered" message so I know it is not a case of me (and other posters) pressing the wrong art.As far as I can tell this happens regardless of the "failure icon" and regardless of whether the appropriate durability or progress reaction art is used (as suggested earlier in this thread by Motown).If I "spam" the durability arts without a failure icon I get a random chance of success +71 +43 or failure +31 -7; exactly the same as I get if I successfully counter & "spam" the durability arts in reaction to a "failure icon".  The numbers for progress are -15 +122 or -55 +62.For the record, the arts I have are (durability) Hammering, Stoke Coals, Bridle Joint, (progress) Strikes, Steady Heat and Angle Joint.From Motown's post I'd suggest that by his spelling he is also on a non-US server so is there a chance of different code being used and that's the reason you and QA aren't finding an issue?  Having said that, I've suggested before that your RNG is a much friendlier beast than mine! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Last thing that may be of some note to your testing.  I've made 4 ebon and 1 feysteel armour pieces while I've been in the 50-59 trade skill range and have NOT had a failure response on any successful counters.  Obviously I have no way of knowing whether this is just because the RNG is kinder for lower level recipes.All of the failures I've reported have been on armour in the 50-59 range AND every item I have made in this range has had multiple occurrences of this issue.I'm clarifying this because I'm wondering whether this level 58 armourer of yours' Domino is a true level 58 or whether you use some facility of level adjustment, which may affect how the level but not readjust the RNG factor.  Anyway, if I give you all the facts as I understand them it'll hopefully make life easier for you and anyone else investigating the issue.Thanks again for progressing this Domino.  I know you are busy and that this affects a small percentage of Sony customers so will not have the highest priority etc.  I just felt that I needed to get it firmly on the radar scope while I was still in a position to do so.  My armourer will be level 60 within the hour so I may not be able to provide much more feed back unfortunately (as there's no TS XP lock facility <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />).  I will however, as previously mentioned, confirm whether or not the level 60 range is also affected for me (and I am praying to Tunare that it isn't).

[MrWolfie]

It happened to me. Once.I'd just levelled to 47 Armorsmith, so my skills hadn't reached their max yet.When successfully countering White Hot Heat with a combination of ALL the progress buttons, I got a -55, +something result. Which indicates I got a failure result while still successfully countering the reaction.This was /bugged, but I'm on one of those servers which gets ignored <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Personally, I'd like to see the return of automatic critical success when successfully countering events...

[Oakleafe]

As I said in my opening post, I wasn't sure if the issue was connected to LU42 or specific to the level 50 arts as I had leveled to 50 before LU42 and only crafted at that level after its' implementation.Well, I've done my first rush order as a level 60 armourer today and got a failure on Heat Wave and Red Hot Metal from the durability arts and on Heat Depletion from the progress arts.  It was only one of each and this is far less than I had been experiencing, but they were failures none the less.  Having said that it's just one rush order (no vitality left so won't be doing another for a while) so I'm personally not reading any positive into the lower number of failures.From the previous post it's starting to look like the LU42 implementation came with a bug, as I never experienced any problems during the 40-49 range.

[Domino]

Thanks for the further details, we will keep poking at it!

[Mynervia]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>It happened to me. Once.</blockquote>Likewise. Exactly one time (that I noticed) when I successfully countered a complication, I still failed the round.It was on my armorer, who was in the 20s or 30s at the time and would've been during GU42 or GU41 (a little fuzzy on when it happened, sorry, but definitely remember the event itself because I was so surprised). Also, I'm on a US server (Guk), unlike the above posters.

[Motown]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>It happened to me. Once.</blockquote>Happened to me consistently over the period mentioned in my last post on this matter.  Would be greater than 30 times, definitely.  'Shaping was maxed in the usual manner after levelling and I saw no striking correlation between fail rates when 'shaping < max or otherwise.  FWIW, I'm in Australia so my ping is almost certainly >200ms if that matters.  OTOH, I didn't see this on any other of my crafters, and I craft a lot.

[Oakleafe]

Update: Still broken; still frustrating; still unfair.

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Update: Still broken; still frustrating; still unfair.</blockquote><p>I am having a big problem with my armorer too, but I can't pinpoint it to the reaction arts.  I don't have the same symptoms.  When I counter an event, it does get countered.  I get message that something was countered.  However I don't see any figures, numbers.  I don't know the numeric value of what happened. I certainly don't see any improvement in progress most of the time.  </p><p>I'd love to find out that this is bugged and can be fixed.  I really can't understand why my armorer is so terrible at crafting when I raised sage, tailor, and carpenter with no probelems. </p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Update: Still broken; still frustrating; still unfair.</blockquote><p>I am having a big problem with my armorer too, but I can't pinpoint it to the reaction arts.  I don't have the same symptoms.  When I counter an event, it does get countered.  I get message that something was countered.  However I don't see any figures, numbers.  I don't know the numeric value of what happened. I certainly don't see any improvement in progress most of the time.  </p><p>I'd love to find out that this is bugged and can be fixed.  I really can't understand why my armorer is so terrible at crafting when I raised sage, tailor, and carpenter with no probelems. </p></blockquote>I'd suggest that your armourer is terrible at crafting because the arts are bugged, i.e. what I've been reporting via this post.The bug that I've reported is that when you successfully counter (and know that you have because you get the "successfully countered" message), you still head to the RNG process.  This means that you may get progress and duration for <i>success</i> or <i>critical success</i>, but that you can also get values for <i>failure</i> and even <i>critical failure</i>.  I posted examples of the numbers involved earlier in this thread.Not seeing any number at all is a different issue to the one I am reporting via this thread (and numerous bug reports).  On very rare occasions I also feel like a set of numbers just didn't appear or that there's a missed beat in the processing cycle.  I've always put this down to some sort of server disconnect / packet loss issue.  It may be worth you displaying the new connection stats window (via F11) and clicking on the packet loss graphic to see if you can spot on-going packet loss issues.

[Sapphirius]

<p><seems to remember a similar thread that was mistitled about this very same topic> Sadly, the poster of the topic, who was an armorer, was bashed for posting anything when the base of his complaint was exactly this.</p><p>As of yesterday morning, my armorer's arts still were not working as intended. The problem was exactly as you described: countering an event and being pushes to the RNG for both success <i>and</i> failure.</p>

[Frijoles]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sadly, the poster of the topic ... was bashed for posting ...</blockquote><p>Oh my - that doesn't happens on <i>these</i> boards, does it?</p><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Lodrelhai]

Ran into this on my level 21 Armorer.  /bug sent, here's the contents:"While crafting a Carbonite Tower Shield, the crafting event White Hot Metal came up.  I used the skill Hammering to counter, followed by Angle Joint and Steady Heat for the extra progress.  I did get the message "You successfully countered White Hot Metal," but my results for the round were -30 durability, +24 progress.  This would be a round failure (-50d, 0p) adjusted for the benefits given by these counters.  My Metal Shaping skill at the time was 97/105"As my plan is to grind my Armorer to 30 over the next couple days, I'll continue to report incidents of this as they occur.Edit: Exact same thing happened again:  Lvl 22 this time, skill at 110/100, but the rest of it was identical - White Hot Metal, skills used were Hammering (-7 progress, +20 durability) for the counter, Angle Joint (+16 progress) and Steady Heat (-8% success chance, +15 progress) for additional progress.  Result of the round -30 durability, +24 progress.  Got a <a rel="nofollow" href="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2170/2337306198_8586d9ecd7_o.jpg" target="_blank">screenshot </a>of the numbers over the forge with the message "You successfully countered White Hot Metal."I have gotten other successful counters of White/Red/Orange Hot Metal and noticed something else.  Usually, if you successfully counter an event, in addition to the guaranteed success of the round, there's a bit of an extra bonus to either durability or progress - in other words, if the results of using that counter without an event would normally give +15 progress, using that counter successfully against an event would give +20 progress.  But the same combo of counters listed above, when used to in response to one of the Hot Metal events, gives no extra bonus.  Even if the round is a success, the numbers are +10 durability, +74 progress.  I don't know if that's an indication it's going straight to the RNG without adjustment, or if Hammering just doesn't give a bonus reward, so I didn't include that in the bug report.Hope this helps!Edit again: quitting for the night, got 3 more cases of the same thing, for a total of 5.  The fail always seems to happen with White Hot Metal countered by Hammering, though it doesn't happen every time I counter White Hot Metal with Hammering.  I estimate 1 in 3 times, it results in a fail.  I'll continue to monitor, and if it happens with any other events or counters, I'll make sure to post on it.

[Domino]

Thank you very much!  Last I checked in with QA they were having trouble reproducing this, so hopefully those details help.  I also stopped by EQ2Traders and left a note there in case any of the armorsmiths there had noticed the same thing.  Sorry this is proving difficult to track down!

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Update: Still broken; still frustrating; still unfair.</blockquote><p>I am having a big problem with my armorer too, but I can't pinpoint it to the reaction arts.  I don't have the same symptoms.  When I counter an event, it does get countered.  I get message that something was countered.  However I don't see any figures, numbers.  I don't know the numeric value of what happened. I certainly don't see any improvement in progress most of the time.  </p><p>I'd love to find out that this is bugged and can be fixed.  I really can't understand why my armorer is so terrible at crafting when I raised sage, tailor, and carpenter with no probelems. </p></blockquote>I'd suggest that your armourer is terrible at crafting because the arts are bugged, i.e. what I've been reporting via this post.The bug that I've reported is that when you successfully counter (and know that you have because you get the "successfully countered" message), you still head to the RNG process.  This means that you may get progress and duration for <i>success</i> or <i>critical success</i>, but that you can also get values for <i>failure</i> and even <i>critical failure</i>.  I posted examples of the numbers involved earlier in this thread.Not seeing any number at all is a different issue to the one I am reporting via this thread (and numerous bug reports).  On very rare occasions I also feel like a set of numbers just didn't appear or that there's a missed beat in the processing cycle.  I've always put this down to some sort of server disconnect / packet loss issue.  It may be worth you displaying the new connection stats window (via F11) and clicking on the packet loss graphic to see if you can spot on-going packet loss issues. </blockquote><p>Oakleafe, thank you very much for that good explanation.  I don't know how to see actual values for what happens.  I see critical success or failure *sometimes* when I click a reaction not in counter to an event.  More often nothing seems to happen.  The only time I see numbers is with a heal when I counter  or power hit if I fail to counter.   I also get the successfully countered or failed to counter messages when an event does occur.  </p><p>Abd thank you Lodrethai for the screenshot.  Now I know where to see the numbers.  I never looked outside the crafting window.  I will now.  </p>

[Domino]

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>The only time I see numbers is with a heal when I counter  or power hit if I fail to counter.   I also get the successfully countered or failed to counter messages when an event does occur.  </p></blockquote>Tradeskill numbers are also turned off when you turn off the overhead combat feedback, so you might have those off.  They're also a bit hard to see at the forge as they appear very high up.  In your options, go into "user interface" then "name and chat bubble" and tick the "show overhead combat feedback" box.  Then mousewheel back in 3rd person view as far as you can, and tilt your camera up slightly so you can see the top of the forge's chimney.  The numbers should be visible floating up from there.  They appear in pairs: the first number is progress, the second is durability. 

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>The only time I see numbers is with a heal when I counter  or power hit if I fail to counter.   I also get the successfully countered or failed to counter messages when an event does occur.  </p></blockquote>Tradeskill numbers are also turned off when you turn off the overhead combat feedback, so you might have those off.  They're also a bit hard to see at the forge as they appear very high up.  In your options, go into "user interface" then "name and chat bubble" and tick the "show overhead combat feedback" box.  Then mousewheel back in 3rd person view as far as you can, and tilt your camera up slightly so you can see the top of the forge's chimney.  The numbers should be visible floating up from there.  They appear in pairs: the first number is progress, the second is durability.  </blockquote><p>I was just fooling around with "show overhead combat feedback."  I originally had it checked but saw no feedback.  Then I unchecked it and still see no feed back.  I'll try using 3rd person and setting mouse back as you suggested.  </p><p>Thanks very much.  I'll be back if I still don't get it<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">  </p><p>Back later.  I finally got to see the numbers. Using 3rd Person and zooming way back with camera up was the thing that did it. Thanks Domino.  </p><p>I can confirm that a few times when I had successfully countered the event, I did get a huge negative number.  That was while doing bridal joint, a durability reaction.  I didn't see it on hammering.  </p><p>Steady Heat (progress buff) would also generate some huge durability hits when I used it outside of an event - when I was just hoping to increase progress.  I don't know if this was to be expected.  I'd get -50 +22.  That happend a number of times.   When this happened, I had not failed to counter anything.  I simply used the reaction for progess.  </p><p>Strikes would also give -50 +22 if used unprovoked.  But I guess it is right in this case, since Strikes is -durability +progress.  </p><p>Still, someone in this thread defined failure as -50.  I hadn't failed anything in either of the two instances just described.  There were no events to fail but still I ended up with -50d.  Is this the way it is supposed to be?</p>

[Tuday]

After reading this thread I must say, I was about to quit crafting all together as I just started playing the game.  I am level 17 so I am just an outfitter, but I will tell you this.  When making armor, there's NO rhyme or reason to why you fail EVERY time. You can successfully counter the event and you'll lose massive durability.I've tried every which way, read guides, read FAQ's and I cannot complete any sort of armor.  Now, when I switch to the weapons, everything works just the way it should.  Since this thread is like over a month old, I definitely wil be picking weaponsmithing as armour sounds like a bunch of frustration until they can get this fixed.

[Espio]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>The only time I see numbers is with a heal when I counter  or power hit if I fail to counter.   I also get the successfully countered or failed to counter messages when an event does occur.  </p></blockquote>Tradeskill numbers are also turned off when you turn off the overhead combat feedback, so you might have those off.  They're also a bit hard to see at the forge as they appear very high up.  In your options, go into "user interface" then "name and chat bubble" and tick the "show overhead combat feedback" box.  Then mousewheel back in 3rd person view as far as you can, and tilt your camera up slightly so you can see the top of the forge's chimney.  The numbers should be visible floating up from there.  They appear in pairs: the first number is progress, the second is durability.  </blockquote>Would it be possible to add the option to have the crafting progress numbers presented in the chat window?   Maybe as a new filter option under the Tradeskills filter.  Just a simple message like "Tradeskill round: +23 progress, +14 durability" would be wonderful.Oh oh, and while you are at it, moving the existing tradeskill progress messages (counters, criticals, etc) to their own filter instead of being under nearby-narrative would rock too, so we could throw all our tradeskill messages into a 'tradeskill spam' window without also removing non-tradeskill messages along with them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Still, someone in this thread defined failure as -50.  I hadn't failed anything in either of the two instances just described.  There were no events to fail but still I ended up with -50d.  Is this the way it is supposed to be?</blockquote>Silken, when you're crafting you've got 4 possible results you can get each round.  Critical success is +100 progress with no durability hit.  Success is +50 progress, -10 durability, and is the most common result.  Failure is -50 durability, no progress.  And critical failure is -50 progress, -100 durability.If you successfully counter an event, you're supposed to be guaranteed a success at least for that round, with a chance of a crit success.  Just using the arts without an event to counter will not keep you from having a fail or crit fail that round.  So if you used a +progress skill but got a fail for the round, you'd still have the -50 durability, plus whatever progress the skill used adds.

[Lodrelhai]

QA is going to get so sick of me...Armorsmithing again, ran into another case of White Hot countered by Hammering resulting in a failed round.  Also got White Hot countered by Strikes causing a failed round.Seems like White Hot is the culprit so far.  Of course, just because I haven't seen the failure with other events doesn't mean there aren't other events causing it.  I won't rule out the fact that every time I've seen this, I've followed the counter by using Angle Joint and Steady Heat - maybe it's the combination of the arts causing the bug.  Still, so far that's the only common denominator.  Will update if I find different errors!Edit: 9 levels, 43 incidents of White Hot Metal successfully countered, including the 3-4 tonight, 8-9 times that successfully countering the event resulted in a failure for the round.  This includes once of using different follow-ups (Stoke Coals and Brittle Joint rather than Steady Heat and Angle Joint), and once using no follow-ups, just Hammering for the counter.  But every single time did occur when White Hot Metal was the event requiring countering.  Looks to me like White Hot Metal is the culprit.  All /bug'd, hopefully Domino and QA will be able to figure it all out and have it fixed by the time I do my grind to 40 in a week or so.Now I'm going to bed!  ^_^

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Still, someone in this thread defined failure as -50.  I hadn't failed anything in either of the two instances just described.  There were no events to fail but still I ended up with -50d.  Is this the way it is supposed to be?</blockquote>Silken, when you're crafting you've got 4 possible results you can get each round.  Critical success is +100 progress with no durability hit.  Success is +50 progress, -10 durability, and is the most common result.  Failure is -50 durability, no progress.  And critical failure is -50 progress, -100 durability.If you successfully counter an event, you're supposed to be guaranteed a success at least for that round, with a chance of a crit success.  Just using the arts without an event to counter will not keep you from having a fail or crit fail that round.  So if you used a +progress skill but got a fail for the round, you'd still have the -50 durability, plus whatever progress the skill used adds.</blockquote>Thank you very much.  That's a great explanation.  I looked through all the faqs yesterday hoping to find such information.  Next time I craft with my armorer, I'll watch again,  From my notes yestereday, I see Success followed by -10d, +72p a couple of times.  However, that is success, isn't it.  It seems my crafter is just plain lousy on her own.   

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>QA is going to get so sick of me...Armorsmithing again, ran into another case of White Hot countered by Hammering resulting in a failed round.  Also got White Hot countered by Strikes causing a failed round.Seems like White Hot is the culprit so far.  Of course, just because I haven't seen the failure with other events doesn't mean there aren't other events causing it.  I won't rule out the fact that every time I've seen this, I've followed the counter by using Angle Joint and Steady Heat - maybe it's the combination of the arts causing the bug.  Still, so far that's the only common denominator.  Will update if I find different errors!Edit: 9 levels, 43 incidents of White Hot Metal successfully countered, including the 3-4 tonight, 8-9 times that successfully countering the event resulted in a failure for the round.  This includes once of using different follow-ups (Stoke Coals and Brittle Joint rather than Steady Heat and Angle Joint), and once using no follow-ups, just Hammering for the counter.  But every single time did occur when White Hot Metal was the event requiring countering.  Looks to me like White Hot Metal is the culprit.  All /bug'd, hopefully Domino and QA will be able to figure it all out and have it fixed by the time I do my grind to 40 in a week or so.Now I'm going to bed!  ^_^</blockquote>Thanks for continuing the feedback.For me the failure can happen on any of the messages/icons to counter, so if you're mainly getting it on just one please count yourself lucky. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[NiamiDenMother]

For the record,i t is *darn* hard to see the numbers as a fae smith, as I have to use a pretty severe up-angle to see the numbers above me.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Level 58 armorer, making various pieces of pristine forged cobalt melodic tonight.  I did notice that I was getting a high number of fails, so I was using: bridle joint (+25 dur), stoke coals (+28 dur) and strikes (-5 dur, +22 progress) on many rounds, varying the order as needed by events.So far, countering the more ciritical events has been behaving.  {fingers cross}.  On less-critical events, such as "Slight heat wave", a successful counter with the above 3 arts (Starting with stoke coals), resulted in two rounds of -2, +22 on several occasions.  One successful counter of "orange hot metal" using those three arts (countering with stoke coals, then calling up the other two), gave me a -22, +something round.Whether any of that is useful or not, I dunno.  I rarely watch the numbers - I just know the perception is there, at least, that I'm fighting with my armor making a lot more than I struggle with other classes.  (Which is part of why she's fallen by the wayside, level-wise, compared to my alt-army.)

[Oakleafe]

<cite>NiamiDenMother wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the record,i t is *darn* hard to see the numbers as a fae smith, as I have to use a pretty severe up-angle to see the numbers above me.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I'd recommend 1st person view rather than 3rd person, especially for any classes that are vertically challenged.

[Mynervia]

Since I finally ding'd 50, I noticed this twice during RO runs to get to 51.  Both successful-counter-but-fail-round were with "Red Hot Metal".Since others above have mentioned White Hot Metal and Orange Hot Metal, I wonder if it's something with the 50s Hot Metal line, or if it's just randomness masquerading as a pattern. <cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>NiamiDenMother wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the record,i t is *darn* hard to see the numbers as a fae smith, as I have to use a pretty severe up-angle to see the numbers above me.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>I'd recommend 1st person view rather than 3rd person, especially for any classes that are vertically challenged. </blockquote>Agreed - I'd originally tried crafting on my dwarf & fae as zoomed out, tilted up 3rd person, since it "seemed" like it should work better; but in practice, I have found it *much* easier to just stay in my normal 1st person and look up.

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Mynervia@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since I finally ding'd 50, I noticed this twice during RO runs to get to 51.  Both successful-counter-but-fail-round were with "Red Hot Metal".Since others above have mentioned White Hot Metal and Orange Hot Metal, I wonder if it's something with the 50s Hot Metal line, or if it's just randomness masquerading as a pattern.<cite></cite></blockquote>Just randomness masquerading as a pattern I'm afraid. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  You can see from a study on the first page of this thread that someone counted the failures against most of the events.  I didn't bother doing a study as doing 8-9 rush orders per level I'm seeing so many failures I just "know" that it's everything.You only saw two successful counters fail for a whole level, whereas I have 2+ successful counters fail per rush order!  I'm very jealous of some of the RNGs you folks seem to have. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Lodrelhai]

I'm starting to wonder if the problem isn't in the events/reactions, but something in the character data.  My armorer had it only ever happen with White Hot Metal, and had it in T3, on average once per level.  Others have it happening on multiple events and far more frequently.  Some are reporting having it only within certain tiers, others across every tier.  And QA/Domino can't seem to replicate it.So... what if it is an error in the character data, or some wonky piece of code that slipped onto Live by mistake?  Of course, if that's the case than it might not ever be found.  But perhaps the characters who are having the problem can be copied/borrowed by QA and see if they have the problem with those?The only other thing I can think of is to have someone from QA sitting right beside our chars while we craft and monitoring/logging every bit of data from the crafting session that they can.

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm starting to wonder if the problem isn't in the events/reactions, but something in the character data.  My armorer had it only ever happen with White Hot Metal, and had it in T3, on average once per level.  Others have it happening on multiple events and far more frequently.  Some are reporting having it only within certain tiers, others across every tier.  And QA/Domino can't seem to replicate it.So... what if it is an error in the character data, or some wonky piece of code that slipped onto Live by mistake?  Of course, if that's the case than it might not ever be found.  But perhaps the characters who are having the problem can be copied/borrowed by QA and see if they have the problem with those?The only other thing I can think of is to have someone from QA sitting right beside our chars while we craft and monitoring/logging every bit of data from the crafting session that they can.</blockquote><p>Duskie, a templar, is my awful armourer.  She just made it to level 40 and did manage to complete the one and only rush order she tried but just by one of her fuzzy kerra hairs.  I won't consider her problem fixed until I can get through at least three without failing, unless I do something incredibly stupid to cause the fails. </p>

[Lodrelhai]

Just FYI, started my armorer on the T4 grind today, and ran into the bug again.  Filed a /bug report with the details, but it's pretty much same old.  White Hot Metal countered with Hammering, followed by Angle Joint and Steady Heat.  Round results -30 durability, +24 progress.I'm sorely tempted to /testcopy with all my materials, run through a tier, delete from test, and repeat until we get a handle on this.Edit: Ran out of feyiron, so I'm done for the night, but it happened 5 times total, including once that resulted in a critical fail for the round.  Seems to hit me only on the White Hot Metal event.  /bug'd all 5.

[Domino]

Bingo!With many thanks also to Elspaeth over at <a href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/showthread.php?p=54882#post54882" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">EQ2traders</a> who caught the thing in a log file, between the info here and there, today we have identified the culprit!  It was mainly the White Hot Metal event causing the issues although there were some other irregularities particularly in the level range mentioned in this thread.  We getting it fixed up and now we know what to look for, QA is now scanning all the other level ranges and tradeskill classes to make sure there aren't any other similiar issues too.Many thanks to everyone who contributed time and data to tracking it down!  Sorry it took so long, but we got that elusive little bug in the end, and learned how to catch similar ones in the future too!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Oh]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bingo!With many thanks also to Elspaeth over at <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/showthread.php?p=54882#post54882" target="_blank">EQ2traders</a> who caught the thing in a log file, between the info here and there, today we have identified the culprit!  It was mainly the White Hot Metal event causing the issues although there were some other irregularities particularly in the level range mentioned in this thread.  We getting it fixed up and now we know what to look for, QA is now scanning all the other level ranges and tradeskill classes to make sure there aren't any other similiar issues too.Many thanks to everyone who contributed time and data to tracking it down!  Sorry it took so long, but we got that elusive little bug in the end, and learned how to catch similar ones in the future too!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Might i suggest a way to capture the +'s and -'s ever round to our chat log that in turn can be put to a log file. I "believe" that would have helped in identifying this. Then again i could be completly wrong. Anyways Great job finially getting this one nailed down!

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bingo!With many thanks also to Elspaeth over at <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/showthread.php?p=54882#post54882" target="_blank">EQ2traders</a> who caught the thing in a log file, between the info here and there, today we have identified the culprit!  It was mainly the White Hot Metal event causing the issues although there were some other irregularities particularly in the level range mentioned in this thread.  We getting it fixed up and now we know what to look for, QA is now scanning all the other level ranges and tradeskill classes to make sure there aren't any other similiar issues too.Many thanks to everyone who contributed time and data to tracking it down!  Sorry it took so long, but we got that elusive little bug in the end, and learned how to catch similar ones in the future too!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>I'm so glad you found the bug or bugs.  Thank you and thank the others involved.  </p><p>However, I'm not sure what level range you mean.  A number of ranges were mentioned in this thread.  My armorer was in tier 4 (levels 30-39) when she had most problems. but others were having problems in higher tiers.  She is in tier 5 (level 45 now) and doing better, although it seems she'll never be as good a crafter as my sage and tailor.  </p><p>When will there be a fix?  </p><p>Again, thanks.  </p>

[Lodrelhai]

Woohoo!  Success!  Wish I'd known you needed the logs, I've got them for every instance of it.  Though the log only shows if it's a critical failure...Glad it got traced.  I agree with Ohiv, maybe being able to capture the result numbers in logs would help in catching future bugs?

[tmg]

I just started crafting and no problems so far. I'm a lvl21 Armorer. The only problem I ran in to so far is that I got a work order in Nettleville for 12 Carbonite Kite Shields, but I don't have the option in my list of lvl 20 or 21 items. Please help. Did they get rid of the carbonite stuff? I do have all the "Steel" items available.

[Oakleafe]

<cite>tmg74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just started crafting and no problems so far. I'm a lvl21 Armorer. The only problem I ran in to so far is that I got a work order in Nettleville for 12 Carbonite Kite Shields, but I don't have the option in my list of lvl 20 or 21 items. Please help. Did they get rid of the carbonite stuff? I do have all the "Steel" items available.</blockquote>The carbonite kite shield is in the Armorer Essentials Volume 20, which you buy from the dude that stands just outside the trade skill places.  The steel versions come from the Advanced Armorer Volumes.

[Odys]

It's very obvious too anyone having two toons of the same craft level ...Armorer are much more likely to fail or at least finish with less extra time. I m a fae and never saw the numbers i just learned that the do exist. But the feeling is cleareven when i m doing a armor for a command i fight more with my armorer than with others.

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Oustafiak@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very obvious too anyone having two toons of the same craft level ...Armorer are much more likely to fail or at least finish with less extra time. I m a fae and never saw the numbers i just learned that the do exist. But the feeling is cleareven when i m doing a armor for a command i fight more with my armorer than with others. </blockquote>As someone who is leveling 9 toons through the same tier simulaneousy... um, no, it isn't.My armorer tends to have less time left than my provisioner or tailor, that's for sure, but even when the reaction arts were bugged he was finishing faster and with more durability than my alchemist (who has a tendency to get as many as 3 crit fails in a row towards the end of a combine).  That was in T3.  Since starting T4 (post the bug fix), the armorer is smoking all my scholars in recipe completion times.  The only reason they got to lvl 40 before him is I keep running out of feyiron.My guild's full of people doing multiple tradeskills, and everyone has a different TS that is difficult for them.  For me it's alchemist, for my guildleader it's armorer, another friend's jeweler has the unluckiest RNG on Norrath, and another guildie has a mutual hatred relationship with woodworking.  I might buy that for some reason or other characters end up predisposed to succeed or fail at certain tradeskills, but armorers are not by default the hardest.

[Jrral]

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Might i suggest a way to capture the +'s and -'s ever round to our chat log that in turn can be put to a log file. I "believe" that would have helped in identifying this.</blockquote>Second this. Having the round results and the events that come up in the log along with the other messages would help with things like this. And to be honest it'd be interesting to parse the same way things like ACT parse combat logs, to get a definitive answer to "Is something I started doing helping or not?".

[tmg]

Ahhhh. TYVM.

[Kaldrin]

For the original topic of this thread, the reaction arts for my, now 56 armorer are still not creating positive results. From what I can tell any positive result just happens to be a roll that turns a positive result and has nothing to do with the reaction arts or counters. I tried keeping track of the events, but by the end of the 3rd writ I think I managed to get a negative result on most of the successful counters to events. Tonight was about the fourth time I've bugged this since it's been 'fixed'. Still nothing. Oh yeah, and Armorer's Insight didn't buff when I successfully countered that one too.

[Torri]

<p>I think my Armorer ran into this same problem last night. There she is, hammering away at the forge when an event pops up. She takes the appropriate action to counter the event, the icon goes green and the sucessfully countered the event message pops up, but the numbers overhead are -55 + 40. It seemed to happen on about half the events that used the firey red icon. It didn't stop her from finishing her level 50 rush orders at 51 with time to spare, but it's pretty annoying, especially when I seem to get critical sucesses about 25% of the time when I'm NOT paying attention and don't properly counter things with my Tailor. To try and work around it I started using durability counters when that event icon popped up if I was close to the finish and I don't recall getting a negative number that way</p>

[Rhouvus]

Just to make sure the voice of people gets heard:I have the same problem with my level 50 armorer. Rush orders have become a dangerous game.I /bug'ed it, too.

[Jrral]

I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?</blockquote><p>Thanks for tuning me in on what it means to "necro a thread."  Never knew that before.  I think it is better that you use an old thread, especially in a case like this where the problem was never resolved.  </p><p>I just outgrew my problems with rush orders.  My armorer is high enough now to finish the rush orders despite the bugs.  However, I'm not sure that seeing a red durability number is a bug when you have done a successful counter.  Not sure it isn't either.  A low number might be considered success and a high negative as failure.  In one of these armor threads, there is a good write-up on what to expect in the numbers.  </p>

[Oh]

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?</blockquote>Leveled my alchemist from 56-80 on writs this weekend didn't see a problem with it (surprizingly I see hickups from time to time), did 3 levels on my armorer today (ran out of parts what's new) and didn't see it either. >.< My armorer is level 65 now soo it might be the level range he's in. Now what I did see is when there was no event to be countered I sometimes got HUGE durability hits and sometimes when I am spaming durability (1, 2 and 3) I sometimes get diddly for durabilty a round. Can't say they are bugs thou. /shrug

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?</blockquote>Negative durability can still happen with a successful round.  The basic results for success/failures, unaltered by any counters, are as followsCritical Failure: -100 durability, -50 progressFailure: -50 durability, 0 progressSuccess: -10 durability, 50 progressCritical Success: 0 durability, 100 progress.A successful counter means you are (or should be) guaranteed a success or crit success for the round.  However, unless the counter(s) you use add at least +10 durability, you may still get a durability hit.  And if the counter you use is the -durability/+progress one, that durability hit can be as much as -18 (depending on crafter class and level).  However, it should never be worse than that, so if you're getting -50 durability on a round where you successfully countered an event, that definitely needs to be /bug'd!

[Jrral]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>A successful counter means you are (or should be) guaranteed a success or crit success for the round.  However, unless the counter(s) you use add at least +10 durability, you may still get a durability hit.</blockquote>Then there's something seriously weird between my alchemist and my armorer. When my alchemist counters an event, I only occasionally get a durability loss and mostly the progress gain is  +100 before arts (I'm using +progress counters, and accounting for the -durability/+progress art). With my armorer I'm always ticking -10 or -50 durability on a successful counter before arts are factored in. And I don't think I'm getting a critical success that often on my alchemist to account for it. I may simply be confused here, but there's a big difference in behavior between the two.

[Calthine]

Something to remember is that successfully countering an event only guarantees that you <i>start</i> the round with a "normal" result of -10/+50.  There's still a bunch of stuff that can occur after that.(see this <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/images/Random%20Images/FanFaire2007/Cals_pics/Tradeskill_flow_chart.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">huge flow chart</a> Domino gave me last Fan Faire.  Her detailed explanation of the tradeskill process can be found at <a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides...html?guide=1057</a> - scroll down to <b><i>Exactly how does the mechanics of item creation work? </i></b> Dang, I knew that'd come in handy one day.)<b><i></i></b>

[Caet]

I just continued the thread on EQ2TC documenting another instance of this. I'm not certain that it's the same problem that I caught earlier, but the new version is quite real.<a href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/showthread.php?p=55833#post55833" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/sh...55833#post55833</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/showthread.php?p=55834#post55833" target="_blank"></a>

[Caethre]

<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">OOC.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I have just seen this thread for the first time (because someone bumped it I guess).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">At the time of writing this, Valerianna is currently a level 58 armourer.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">At the time this thread was raised, I did not have an Armourer. However, I noticed that once Valerianna entered her 50s, successfully countering events whilst working on rush orders was not guaranteeing a successful round in the combine process, indeed, it was seemingly making no difference one way or the other to the chance of a failed round. To be honest, I do not know if this started at level 50 or before, I can only say I *noticed* it at this level range.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I /bugged this a couple of weeks back (l cannot recall when).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">This is still an issue. I was making some combines tonight, this time not part of a rush order, and I am still getting rounds where an event appears, I counter it successfully, and it still results in a standard failed round.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Just posting to give feedback that this is still happening.</span></p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something to remember is that successfully countering an event only guarantees that you <i>start</i> the round with a "normal" result of -10/+50. There's still a bunch of stuff that can occur after that.(see this <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/images/Random%20Images/FanFaire2007/Cals_pics/Tradeskill_flow_chart.jpg" target="_blank">huge flow chart</a> Domino gave me last Fan Faire. Her detailed explanation of the tradeskill process can be found at <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides...html?guide=1057</a> - scroll down to <b><i>Exactly how does the mechanics of item creation work? </i></b> Dang, I knew that'd come in handy one day.)<b><i></i></b></blockquote>Thanks for the link Calthine, but I'm afraid the point is that the "guarantees" bit is NOT working.From the linked explanation, I think one of the following two bits are failing to happen: "It then checks for a reaction event that guarantees success or failure.""If you were successful it will check if it was a critical success; if not it checks for critical failure."I can imagine that the latter sentence could be an IF-THEN-ELSE piece of code.  Or more accurately, that it was but the ELSE got lost and that piece of code is executing regardless.Kind of boggling that this bug has been going since February! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Ghouti]

<p>Hi Guys,</p><p> regarding the topic of this thread, i read this thread a few months ago when i started a new armorer. And wanted to comment that the same problem happened to me too, once my armorer hit lvl 50. Before that time succesfully countering an event always lead to a positive result, but since lvl 50 it's random either positive or ... negative.</p><p> Haven't seen any news about this, latest patch didnt fix it either. Any word about this problem ?</p>

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something to remember is that successfully countering an event only guarantees that you <i>start</i> the round with a "normal" result of -10/+50. There's still a bunch of stuff that can occur after that.(see this <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/images/Random%20Images/FanFaire2007/Cals_pics/Tradeskill_flow_chart.jpg" target="_blank">huge flow chart</a> Domino gave me last Fan Faire. Her detailed explanation of the tradeskill process can be found at <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides.html?guide=1057" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides...html?guide=1057</a> - scroll down to <b><i>Exactly how does the mechanics of item creation work? </i></b>Dang, I knew that'd come in handy one day.)<b><i></i></b></blockquote>Thanks for the link Calthine, but I'm afraid the point is that the "guarantees" bit is NOT working.From the linked explanation, I think one of the following two bits are failing to happen: "It then checks for a reaction event that guarantees success or failure.""If you were successful it will check if it was a critical success; if not it checks for critical failure."I can imagine that the latter sentence could be an IF-THEN-ELSE piece of code.  Or more accurately, that it was but the ELSE got lost and that piece of code is executing regardless.Kind of boggling that this bug has been going since February! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Sounds like you are a programmer, Oakleafe.  The process you described actually happened in many AS/400 COBOL programs when IBM added a new function "continue" as an enhancement for the old function "next sentence".  Both methods were left in the language, but "next sentence" was labeled obsolete. .  There was a tricky difference in the results when one was substituted for the other in a convoluted "nested if."  Unfortunately, not all programmers appreciated the ramifications and jumped in to simply replace the outmoded code with the new.   As a result code that had not been executed in years was now creating havoc. </p><p>Thank you, Calthine.  I downloaded that flow chart.  It is interesting.  However, I need to find a way to darken the ink.  Maybe Photoshop will do it. </p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Ghouti wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hi Guys,</p><p> regarding the topic of this thread, i read this thread a few months ago when i started a new armorer. And wanted to comment that the same problem happened to me too, once my armorer hit lvl 50. Before that time succesfully countering an event always lead to a positive result, but since lvl 50 it's random either positive or ... negative.</p><p> Haven't seen any news about this, latest patch didnt fix it either. Any word about this problem ?</p></blockquote>As far as I can tell the Devs and QA cannot replicate what we see and so don't really believe there is still an issue.  They did do a "fix" a while back but I don't believe that fix was for the problem as originally described.  It's been my personal opinion for some time that until someone captures the action, and posts a link to YouTube or whereever, that this issue will not be resolved.  I did change one of my characters to a newbie armourer to try and do this but with TSRs accusing me of "stuff", with the changes to crafted items that removed wanted gear and with the whole increased adventure-XP scenario I killed off my project.If any armourers who are still affected by this bug are willing to take the time to capture the crafting action so the Devs and QA can see exactly what is happening then I for one with laud you as a hero. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />P.S. Yeah Silken, I'm a programmer <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Whilhelmina]

I'm currently level 54 armorer and I never saw any problem at any tiers and was able to complete rush orders at each level. I'm not sure there is still a problem.

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm currently level 54 armorer and I never saw any problem at any tiers and was able to complete rush orders at each level. I'm not sure there is still a problem.</blockquote>Why mention rush order completion?  That's just a potential by-product of the actual issue, and if you are paying attenbtion yopu can still complete rush orders anyway (unless very unlucky).If you are going to contribute at least say something like "... crafted for 2 hours and all reactions gave the appropriate success results ...", so that we can see that you understand the issue (as many have not).  A response along these lines will be better respected and will allow others, if they are still experiecing the issue, a chance to counter with similar details.Ghouti reports that there is still an issue so I'd suggest that it is still in existence.  Please remember (or at least note) that this is affected by the RNG, so it is likely that some players will be affected more than others (yeah, that does mean that I don't think the RNG is truly random).I still say that we need someone to capture a video of what happens if this is going to be addressed.  If there's no video then there's no proof (as a video is the only way to capture the numbers and the actions together).

[Bratface]

<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I agree that rush orders can still be done even with the bugged armorer reaction arts, I did it but it took longer than other classes (I have all 9 epic'd) and I could not multitask while doing it because it could go bad very quickly even when hitting every event properly. I had to keep on top of it every second or risk losing the combine or failing the writ. Eventually I was able to shave time off the writs, but that was only after she was much higher in level, before that it was a close call even with every skill boosting item you could put on her.I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they <i>always</i> reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.The event numbers +/- durability/progress at the end of a round should be put into a chat channel so it can be recoded and studied, as it is now we would have to video it to prove what is happening when it would be so much easier to prove whether it is broken or not by having those numbers feed into a chat channel.Actually I don't think I could record them since I have a ratonga armorer and she barely sees the numbers since they show at the tippy-top of the forge and she is so tiny. I wish they were character relative instead of being relative to the forge =/</span></span>

[Ghouti]

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I agree that rush orders can still be done even with the bugged armorer reaction arts, I did it but it took longer than other classes (I have all 9 epic'd) and I could not multitask while doing it because it could go bad very quickly even when hitting every event properly. I had to keep on top of it every second or risk losing the combine or failing the writ. Eventually I was able to shave time off the writs, but that was only after she was much higher in level, before that it was a close call even with every skill boosting item you could put on her.I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they <i>always</i> reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.The event numbers +/- durability/progress at the end of a round should be put into a chat channel so it can be recoded and studied, as it is now we would have to video it to prove what is happening when it would be so much easier to prove whether it is broken or not by having those numbers feed into a chat channel.Actually I don't think I could record them since I have a ratonga armorer and she barely sees the numbers since they show at the tippy-top of the forge and she is so tiny. I wish they were character relative instead of being relative to the forge =/</span></span></blockquote><p>After a few more days and few more lvls i cant conclude otherwise that it is bugged, seems to happen mostly with countering heat reactions. As for being able to prove it, video might indeed work but never done that, i was thinking of making screenshots with time being shown (in seconds) one showing you countered an reaction and the other the +/- durability/progress, but to get that time shown clearly any ideas how to do that ?</p><p> Also what ive noticed compared to pre lvl 50, is that countering some reaction used to give me some power, and now it doesnt, which means i have much bigger power problems then before (from none to watch out during rush orders), anyone else notice this too ?</p><p>Despite all this i can still do rush orders, but where i used to have 4+ min left, now it's 2-3 min unless things really bum up at the end. Gonna send a /bug see if they might do something with it, perhaps if we all send one they might see its not just a one-person problem ?</p>

[EQ2Magroo]

Not quite sure what's wrong with Armorer reaction arts, but I'm always either low or out of power on my Armorer when crafting. It been the same all the way from level 20 until level 50 where I'm currrently stalled <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I have a level 80 Woodworker, Provisioner, Carpenter, Alchemist and Jeweler and none of them have ever had a power problem at all.Very strange...

[Oh]

<cite>Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not quite sure what's wrong with Armorer reaction arts, but I'm always either low or out of power on my Armorer when crafting. It been the same all the way from level 20 until level 50 where I'm currrently stalled <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I have a level 80 Woodworker, Provisioner, Carpenter, Alchemist and Jeweler and none of them have ever had a power problem at all.Very strange...</blockquote>The power issue is one I run across with a few different TS classes. Basically there are a few ww and sage off the top that when you succesfuly counter an art you will gain power. Alchemist get health (yea my monk leaves his haste buff up is how I found that one out). The way to really solve the lack of power while crafting is simple, craft nekid with good food then you won't have an issue with power. On my druid when doing rush order writs I have to do it nekid else I will blow through power really fast, my woodworker never has a power problem. The other alternative you could do is use 12 and 45 more then you use 3 and 6 since it's those two that actually use power. Me personally I'd just rather strip and use the full guantlet.

[Ghouti]

<p>Well the thing that bothers me the most, is that im pretty confident that until lvl 50 i'd actually would gain power when countering certain reactions, i never even bothered looking at my power during those lvls as i never ran out, but at the moment im more focused on power during rush orders then on other things as i need to have plenty of reserve, i know you can craft neked but i never fancy that so i am indeed using 12 en 45 and every now and then 3 and 6 when power permits. But it just made me wonder might the gaining of power also have been lost along with always succes on countering reactions ?</p>

[Calthine]

Something to remember is you got new arts at level 60, and I'll bet they use more power than your old ones.

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I agree that rush orders can still be done even with the bugged armorer reaction arts, I did it but it took longer than other classes (I have all 9 epic'd) and I could not multitask while doing it because it could go bad very quickly even when hitting every event properly. I had to keep on top of it every second or risk losing the combine or failing the writ. Eventually I was able to shave time off the writs, but that was only after she was much higher in level, before that it was a close call even with every skill boosting item you could put on her.I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they <i>always</i> reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.The event numbers +/- durability/progress at the end of a round should be put into a chat channel so it can be recoded and studied, as it is now we would have to video it to prove what is happening when it would be so much easier to prove whether it is broken or not by having those numbers feed into a chat channel.<b>Actually I don't think I could record them since I have a ratonga armorer and she barely sees the numbers since they show at the tippy-top of the forge and she is so tiny.</b> I wish they were character relative instead of being relative to the forge =/</span></span></blockquote>Mrs D Mother ma'am mentioned a similar issue to this (her issue including wings!).  The solution is to switch into (via the mouse scroll wheel) first person view and then look up.

[Terron]

<cite>Bratface wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they <i>always</i> reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.</span></span></blockquote>I haven't had a problem with my lowbee armourer, but I don't bother trying to counter events.

[Ghouti]

<p>Hi Guys,last night i spent a few more hours tradeskilling and managed to reach lvl 60 (and later on 61), upon which i made some excavation hats (lvl 60 item as i got the quest at lvl 60), i then noticed something different compared to the previous lvls.</p><p>Upon countering an heat event it would refresh my mana (which is how its supposed to be or at least was before lvl 50), well after making 10 off those hats i decided to be sure and make a lvl 60 rush order, and again countering heat events resulted in refreshing my mana. As for that during those 16 items countering a heat event never failed.</p><p>After that i wanted to check up on the lvl 50 stuff, so i started two lvl 59 rush orders. And yup what do you guess ... countering a heat event dit <b>not</b> result in refreshing my mana as it did for lvl 60 items. I tried a few loose items between lvl 56 and 59 that i didnt get from rush order and same result. During all that time im pretty confident at least once or twice countering an event lead to a failure, but it wasnt often and not that noticable (could be due to the 1,1% success increase from hat or new skills).</p><p> But this would conclude to me that making lvl 50 to 59 items is bugged, at the very least countering an heat event should be the same and refresh mana. And i have the feeling its probably related to the failure (as if it doesnt handle the countering correctly). Countering some of the events did heal me as they did for lvl 60+ so cant be sure if there are other events that are bugged but heat definitaly.</p><p>I sent a /bug report and hopefully QA can reproduce it, perhaps if you our fellow armorer could try this aswell, at whatever lvl you are make a few items and see if countering heat events refreshes your mana, and if you can make a few items between 50 and 59 and see if that still refreshed your mana.</p><p>Dunno much about coding but i have the feeling the problem is in the items and not in the armorer lvl / skills.</p><p> Greetings Ghouti</p>

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Ghouti wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hi Guys,last night i spent a few more hours tradeskilling and managed to reach lvl 60 (and later on 61), upon which i made some excavation hats (lvl 60 item as i got the quest at lvl 60), i then noticed something different compared to the previous lvls.</p><p>Upon countering an heat event it would refresh my mana (which is how its supposed to be or at least was before lvl 50), well after making 10 off those hats i decided to be sure and make a lvl 60 rush order, and again countering heat events resulted in refreshing my mana. As for that during those 16 items countering a heat event never failed.</p><p>After that i wanted to check up on the lvl 50 stuff, so i started two lvl 59 rush orders. And yup what do you guess ... countering a heat event dit <b>not</b> result in refreshing my mana as it did for lvl 60 items. I tried a few loose items between lvl 56 and 59 that i didnt get from rush order and same result. During all that time im pretty confident at least once or twice countering an event lead to a failure, but it wasnt often and not that noticable (could be due to the 1,1% success increase from hat or new skills).</p><p> But this would conclude to me that making lvl 50 to 59 items is bugged, at the very least countering an heat event should be the same and refresh mana. And i have the feeling its probably related to the failure (as if it doesnt handle the countering correctly). Countering some of the events did heal me as they did for lvl 60+ so cant be sure if there are other events that are bugged but heat definitaly.</p><p>I sent a /bug report and hopefully QA can reproduce it, perhaps if you our fellow armorer could try this aswell, at whatever lvl you are make a few items and see if countering heat events refreshes your mana, and if you can make a few items between 50 and 59 and see if that still refreshed your mana.</p><p>Dunno much about coding but i have the feeling the problem is in the items and not in the armorer lvl / skills.</p><p> Greetings Ghouti</p></blockquote>Good QA analysis.  Clear explanation.  I hope it gets some attention.

[Domino]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite>As far as I can tell the Devs and QA cannot replicate what we see and so don't really believe there is still an issue. </blockquote> We believe you are seeing an issue, but believing that and reproducing it and locating the cause are different things! This is a very elusive occurrence, and this post alone shows not even every full-time armorer has seen it. I know QA have looked into it several times, and I'm certain they will continue to do so as time permits, however there are many other things that need testing more urgently (e.g. the entire upcoming expansion). Since this issue is not actually preventing anybody from levelling or progressing or making items, it's not going to get top priority over issues that ARE breaking the game for somebody. I'm sorry we don't have infinite time and resources to dedicate to tracking this down right now, but alas, with a finite number of staff and a finite amount of time, prioritizing is a fact of life. It certainly does not mean we aren't aware of it, and we absolutely do want to track it down when we can spend that time on it. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Unfortunately there's a lot of other things we also need to track down and fix with a higher priority. (<em>*mutters about the Senior Crafter Service quest, for example*</em>)