Suggestion for new/improved coercer spells

[Aurumn]

<p>Ok, there's been a bit of conversation going on lately in regard to the nerfs we hate and the improvements we want. In trying to come up with something constructive I'd like to propose the following for debate/consideration:         <i>(forgive me if this gets longwinded)</i></p><p><b><u>Scapegoat:</u></b> Infuriates enemy encounter causing them to turn against the targeted encounter member for the duration. Upon termination casts something like Thoughtsnap to turn the encounter back to the tank/fighter in group. <i>( I see this as an alternative to Encounter Mezz)</i></p><ul><li><div>I labeled this so that it would only work within a single encounter since I figured making it a blue AoE or somesuch would probably just grab adds that would be unwanted. Basically lets you charm an encounter into killing one of their own for you (or at least throwing it a beating). Not really a "pet", but more of one than you would have in a group otherwise. </div></li><li><div>The thoughtsnap at termination would be my ideal end effect, basically to prevent the spell from ripping agro away from the tank for little benefit. If that would be too much to ask then attaching an encounter stun at termination sort of like Psychic Wail would seem appropriate. They'd be "stunned" that they had turned on their friend after all.</div></li></ul><p><b><u>Confuzzle:</u></b> (sucky name, I know) Temporarily charms a single target (<span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>no concentration</b></span>) for a short duration and causes them to either /assist the caster or a random fighter in group. Basically a means to turn a single mob against another target for a while. <i>(I see this as an alternative to single target mezz)</i></p><ul><li><div>I'm thinking of this sort of like a confusion spell in D&D, but making sure they don't target any of the caster's allies. If they're not in an encounter then using /assist would force them to attack a desired target rather than grabbing the nearest mob agro to the caster resulting in possible adds. Not sure how/if this is doable code-wise.</div></li><li><div>It's better than a dumbfire pet because it takes one of your enemies out of the fight at least for the duration of the spell and forces them to do something of benefit to the caster. Even if they only autoattack it's better than them beating on you.</div></li><li><div>The short duration balances the advantage of it being 0 concentration. Perhaps a mezz or short stun on termination for good measure?</div></li></ul><p>For the sake of balance I'd say these shouldn't directly affect Epics (although that would be a hoot), but I'd like it to affect their adds. Since I don't raid I'll use Varsoon as an example. These spells would work on all the minions he sends out in waves, but not affect Varsoon himself. It would enable you to help in whittling down the adds in lots of situations. </p><p>I mezz plenty when I solo, but this utility would provide a viable alternative when in a group or raid. Encounter Add incoming? Rather than using the encounter Mezz making the mobs AoE immune, create a scapegoat and they'll be occupied for a bit and then politely run to the tank when they come to their senses. Put the coercer in the MT group for a raid and it could turn into a nifty Add management ability or to give the tank a break while the healer gets him out of the red. Single add incoming? Confuzzle it and not only will it leave you alone, it'll politely assist you or your tank. Better than having it stand there like a dummy until someone wakes it up. These spells could translate into a touch more DPS for us and would fit in with our personality of bending others to do our will. </p><p>I hope I explained my thoughts clearly enough. Any input?</p>

[Jesdyr]

 ... I like the ideas but ...One of the big complaints ends up being raid usefulness of the class. These do not really address that issue and honestly I am not a raider so others can speak more to that. The idea would be helpful to the group coercer but it would be a highly situational thing. For Scapegoat to "work" it would most likely get the same immunity as charm to prevent it being cast on a name. Since most groups don't have problems burning trash, I have to question what the end usefulness would be. I doubt it would ever be "acceptable" in the eyes of the devs since the remaining encounter would be at full strength and most likely would drop the scapegoat in a few sec. It would let the coercer trivialize just about any encounter link. Confuzzle could be fun as well but would end up needing the same limitations as scapegoat. (love the name)The class even in its current form is actually great .. the problem is that we are in the wrong game. If EQ2 required our skills, then we would be fine. Sadly most of this game is not about finesse but is all about DPS. This is why the Devs dont seem to know what to do with us. Our class is such an impossible balancing act that it seems they have given up. Here is my 5 fairly small changes that would help. 1 - Rework charm so that it is 0 break chance (leave duration just remove 30sec resist checks)2 - Retool our Epic to be more like the Illy (remove Conc on charm). 3 - Give us something to charm in raid zones (goes with 1 and 2)4 - Replace possession with a "pet rez" for mobs that die while charmed5 - Make procs trigger off puppet master pets when they are one shotted

[Aurumn]

<p>Thanks for the response, Jesdyr. I understand what you're saying. I'm also pretty clueless on the raiding side of things so I'm really guessing there. </p><p>I see your point about Scapegoat trivializing encounters. Perhaps giving it a long-ish recast timer would mitigate this somewhat? I was working on the assumption that the encounter would remain agro to the group/raid and still take damage. Basically just force the scapegoat to be at the top of their hate list for the spell duration, or at least start at the top. I've no clue if that's possible or not.  </p><p>I'd agree that they'd probably need to make named mobs immune to either spell to keep us from nuking them with abandon (hence the sidenote on epics), but even then I figured it might be something *more* than mezz to fall back on. Again, I consider myself a novice here so I'm looking for wisdom from the vets. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I absolutely love your #1 and #2 ideas. Heck, I'd even take a reduced duration if it's a guaranteed timer of when the mob will break. I'm only level 56 so the epic weapon, Possession and Puppetmaster points I'll have to plead ignorance to except from second hand information. Anyone else have some thoughts?</p>

[Depheni]

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The class even in its current form is actually great .. the problem is that we are in the wrong game. If EQ2 required our skills, then we would be fine. Sadly most of this game is not about finesse but is all about DPS. This is why the Devs dont seem to know what to do with us. Our class is such an impossible balancing act that it seems they have given up. </blockquote>The thing is that they wanted (it has been sad many times) to move away from the eq1 holy trinity ofwarrior - cleric - enchanter that was a requirement in almost every high end zone in eq1.In many ways they eliminated it as several classes can tank and all healer classes can take the role of the cleric.But in order to achieve this they had to eliminate the requirement of mez, because if it was in play it would in most cases destroy the ability of some classes to effectively heal or effectively tank without a mezzer.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Depheni wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The thing is that they wanted (it has been sad many times) to move away from the eq1 holy trinity ofwarrior - cleric - enchanter that was a requirement in almost every high end zone in eq1.In many ways they eliminated it as several classes can tank and all healer classes can take the role of the cleric.But in order to achieve this they had to eliminate the requirement of mez, because if it was in play it would in most cases destroy the ability of some classes to effectively heal or effectively tank without a mezzer.</blockquote>Never played EQ1  soo ..  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Without the need for CC it is just a tank and spank. It is all about brute force. I am not saying this is good or bad, but it means that as a class we feel so nerfed. I say with good CC, who needs the tank and healer. This is what I am doing rightnow (3 box Coercer(80) Wiz(62) and Lock(63) ). I know I will have problem with RoK dungeons because the room for error is 0 when you get 2 killed in 2 hits, but I will do it because I play the control game very well. Really most of the zones would be easy enough with just DPS CC and a single healer for "mistakes".

[shogun007]

How about just putting Avatars of Devs in game.  Obsidiann will be placeholder epic X4 and after u kill him , Developer responsible for nerf will spawn with adds (nerf team) wielding  nerf bats. After u kill them u loot a token with minor coercer improvement written on it . (10% extra power regen , certain T8 named mobs losing CC immunity , 10%-50% pet damage improvement) and so on. I mean come on why put fake gods , if we all know who  our gods are-)

[Depheni]

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Never played EQ1  soo ..  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> Without the need for CC it is just a tank and spank. It is all about brute force. I am not saying this is good or bad, but it means that as a class we feel so nerfed. I say with good CC, who needs the tank and healer. This is what I am doing rightnow (3 box Coercer(80) Wiz(62) and Lock(63) ). I know I will have problem with RoK dungeons because the room for error is 0 when you get 2 killed in 2 hits, but I will do it because I play the control game very well. Really most of the zones would be easy enough with just DPS CC and a single healer for "mistakes". </blockquote>The only problem is that in eq1 it was simply impossible to do anything worthwhile without a chanter. Now perhaps the model could be better applied in eq2 as there are more mezz classes, but I still think it would eventually limit the game far more.On the other hand it would be nice to have some places where mezzes are a necessity, or at least dangerous enough that mezzes would make a difference even for a top notch group. Still I wouldn't suggest it as the norm (like it was in eq1) it would deffinetly create allot f problems for allot of classes.Nizara (especially in the begining) and CMM to some extend offered some opportunity for mezzers.Sebilis and Chardok are either badly designed or maybe just too hard because prior to the introduction of epics I almost never saw any groups for them.Your play style seems somewhat unique and while more cc would suit you I think the majority of the population would not eye it kindly.2 hits ? in high end RoK zones mobs kill me simply by looking at me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[GinasiBryn3r]

Well they did a great job, now instead of... finesse and strategy = warrior, chanter, and cleric it's (as stated above) brute force and heals = zerker/guardian, defiler, druid, cleric

[Xethren]

<cite>Depheni wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Never played EQ1  soo ..  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /> Without the need for CC it is just a tank and spank. It is all about brute force. I am not saying this is good or bad, but it means that as a class we feel so nerfed. I say with good CC, who needs the tank and healer. This is what I am doing rightnow (3 box Coercer(80) Wiz(62) and Lock(63) ). I know I will have problem with RoK dungeons because the room for error is 0 when you get 2 killed in 2 hits, but I will do it because I play the control game very well. Really most of the zones would be easy enough with just DPS CC and a single healer for "mistakes". </blockquote>The only problem is that in eq1 it was simply impossible to do anything worthwhile without a chanter. Now perhaps the model could be better applied in eq2 as there are more mezz classes, but I still think it would eventually limit the game far more.On the other hand it would be nice to have some places where mezzes are a necessity, or at least dangerous enough that mezzes would make a difference even for a top notch group. Still I wouldn't suggest it as the norm (like it was in eq1) it would deffinetly create allot f problems for allot of classes.Nizara (especially in the begining) and CMM to some extend offered some opportunity for mezzers.Sebilis and Chardok are either badly designed or maybe just too hard because prior to the introduction of epics I almost never saw any groups for them.Your play style seems somewhat unique and while more cc would suit you I think the majority of the population would not eye it kindly.2 hits ? in high end RoK zones mobs kill me simply by looking at me. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>You speak very truely Depheni. I remember the 'good old' days of EQ1, and to enforce the facts as you said: You had to get a group to do ANYTHING. In that game, if you couldnt kite you HAD to group to get exp. And Sony more or less killed kiting in the later expansions, where even trash mobs could summon you. One add would usually mean a group wipe if the mezzer wasnt paying attention, or if the other group members liked to break mez. Im only in the 40's and havent grouped much, but so far it almost seems like CC isnt really needed that much when you are with others. I only use it when trying to save my butt when soloing.

[Asmara]

An idea I had for a coercer spell was being able to "link" 2 or more mobs together (inside our outside encounter) so that they feel each others' pain, ie. if you cause X amount of damage to Link A, Link B will receive X/2 or X/3 or whatever depending on quality as damage. Or make it so you it always attaches this link on a party/raid member?Or giving us a temporary group buff for a short time that will disable all party members CAs and Spells, but will reduce all their autoattack to 0 delay (hence only recovery). We'll call it "Berzerk Frenzy" (who said we can't "coercer" our own friends ... =) we are evil after all) This might give us a bit more viability in scout heavy groups.Another "coercing our friends" idea is to give a short buff on a party member so that for a short amount of time all their spells and abilities do no consume power, but rather 1.3 times the amount of HP instead, sort of 'forcing them to go beyond their limits'. After the spell has finished it will deplete maybe 20% of power, but if the power is less than 20% the difference is paid for doubly in HPjust a few more ideas, thought i'd throw them in here in hopes that at least <b>something</b> will happen for coercers

[RightInTwo]

<p>I think possession should be changed to this:</p><p>Target will run around in random directions for 8-12 seconds and throw their hands up in the air screaming "OMG, I'm on fire!!!!" If target is attacked, spell is broken. Resistability 5% easier. Epic targets are immune. Recast is 5 minutes. PVP targets will gain immunity from the duration of the spell multiplied by 5.</p><p>lol...sorry, I'm just bored at work. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Taharn]

<p>Change the Despotic Mind line to something called Stinging Lethargy. It's a debuff that causes X% of power drained from the mob to be done as damage. The AA acts exactly like the Despotic one does now.</p><p>Get rid of Possession and replace it with something called Forced Inhibitions. This is a temp buff that converts X% of the damage received by the person into health. Obviously it would be a very low percentage, or it would be overpowered, and we dont want to take the spot of a healer.</p><p> Puppetmaster... Puppetmaster... The idea of the spell is great, it would be fantastic if the three puppets WERE mini-replicas of the mob, but this could become overpowered, and cause a lot of issues (especially on names.. imagine 3 mini-drusellas..) Maybe making them similar to warlock's broodlings in that they nuke from range would be better. To keep the RP aspect of the spell, they could call the nuke Essence Shift, where the puppets are gradually absorbing the mobs reality to make themselves real.. blah blah blah</p><p>A few other ideas would be some spells similar to bard debuffs, where they take power-over-time to use. I mean, we ARE the masters of power, we may as well do something with all that regen. A debuff that increases the mobs attack speed, but reduces it DPS by more (essentially making it more likely that our reactives will proc, while reducing spike damage which can be a big problem for us). The nature of the spell could make the numbers fairly high, Even to the point of increasing attack speed by 30 while reducing DPS by 50 or something similar.</p>

[Illine]

<cite>Asmara wrote:</cite><blockquote>An idea I had for a coercer spell was being able to "link" 2 or more mobs together (inside our outside encounter) so that they feel each others' pain, ie. if you cause X amount of damage to Link A, Link B will receive X/2 or X/3 or whatever depending on quality as damage. Or make it so you it always attaches this link on a party/raid member?Or giving us a temporary group buff for a short time that will disable all party members CAs and Spells, but will reduce all their autoattack to 0 delay (hence only recovery). We'll call it "Berzerk Frenzy" (who said we can't "coercer" our own friends ... =) we are evil after all) This might give us a bit more viability in scout heavy groups.Another "coercing our friends" idea is to give a short buff on a party member so that for a short amount of time all their spells and abilities do no consume power, but rather 1.3 times the amount of HP instead, sort of 'forcing them to go beyond their limits'. After the spell has finished it will deplete maybe 20% of power, but if the power is less than 20% the difference is paid for doubly in HPjust a few more ideas, thought i'd throw them in here in hopes that at least <b>something</b> will happen for coercers</blockquote>The first spell would more be illusionnist like and the secound more inquisitor.I think The class is great. Take a monk as MT, a Inquisitor as MH and go down in sebilis, in the jail. You'll have to mezz mobs lol... I had to otherwise we would have wiped.as a coercer, the spell I'd love to see is making mobs linked fight each other as long as they are not damaged by anyone else. A mass short duration charm.The spells I don't like are Possession, completly useless and puppetmaster ... we were the only class without pet ... Why did they give us a useless swarm. It's a bit more dps .. but long cast, long recast, and they don't resist AE.If they are supposed to "annoy"the mob, Why don't they debuff it? At least it could be nice... for a couple of seconds loland what would be cool is for mana drain spells and tyrannical mind to stack. If you drain him some mana, he would loose health in the same time. Because, bonnestly, some dots arenot that effective since mana drain is useless on heroic and epic ... and no point of using it for a single target, or for fun lol.Plus it breaks mezz ... illusionnists are better, it's a massive drain and so a stun+drain before mezz is great, but we can't use our solo stun just before a mezz; <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />things are not logical ...