Time to betray?

[Beogon]

<p>     Well with the arrival of the epics it seems pretty clear that a dev is now playing a monk, as they have broke out the silver spoon for them, and continue to shove the middle finger down our throats. Question to all the raiding bruisers out there, is it time to betray? No way our dps will be able to keep up with rogues now with the epic piece of sheit they gave us, but oh yah, we can tank for 10 sec omgz!!!!!!!!!  This weapon is a pathetic attempt to fix the survivability issue and will do next to nothing to the poor souls that still think they are tanks, while completing leaving us behind on the dps front. Oh yah, dont even get me started on the 4k hate proc.</p><p>     As a bruiser who is nearly mastered out ( gut punch / def stance missing) , id hate to start all over but [I cannot control my vocabulary] im sick of being treated like a  second class player because i play a class that sony loves to sheit on.</p>

[Owa]

<p><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;">I agree with you on virtually every point: the bruiser class has been ***** consistently in every patch and expansion I can remember. Our AAs are cack, our itemization is about the worst in the game and our CAs are regularly nerfed. We have to compete with plate tanks with huge mitigation and uncontested avoidance. We have to compete with DPS classes for whom crazily-overpowered items litter the game like candy.But you know what? The reason Sony keeps nerfing the Bruiser class is that the small number of us who have stuck with it and mastered our ****** have managed to achieve things that get the plate tanks and the DPS classes all uncomfortable. I can outparse every single class and usually do. I can tank every non-raid zone in the game. I can solo better and more efficiently than anyone else. I can fall distances which would kill most other classes. I can explore zones myself which most classes need a full group even to consider entering. And so can you. So can all of us.And the reason we can do these things is precisely because the tools SoE have given us are imperfect and precisely because <i>we </i>have had to perfect them ourselves.  Losing aggro as a Zerker is impossible unless you fall asleep. Keeping upright against an orange ^^^ is cake for a Guardian. You can parse high with a well-equipped scout with your eyes closed. Killing a ^^^ mob with a caster is cake. All these things are difficult for us. We have to really be on our game to compete. But, aside from raid tanking, we have competed, brilliantly, for over four years. Gentlemen, you should be proud of what you can do because it's what <i>you</i> <i>have done</i>. The <i>players</i> themselves have 'overclocked' this class and made it into something special.So yes, at the moment, Monks have the edge but it's only an edge. If we try, if we use all the tricks we have learned over the years of nerfs, if we remember what we have achieved with **** all help from Sony,  and be the sort of stubborn ***** that playing this class has made us, we can still outtank,  out parse and outfight any of those other cookie-cutter, vanilla easy-mode classes. And not that most of you care about PvP (**** knows why - you're Bruisers for **** sake!) but we can beat Monks in PvP too, despite their zillion percent haste and fancy items.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;">~Edited to remove the crudely hidden profanity</span></span></p>

[Pnaxx]

/Claps for Owain.

[Thavek]

[Removed for Content] yea!   lol  Owain in 08!

[ganjookie]

42

[Aull]

<p>Beogon I am just making this statement, but you do what you want. Please just stick it out if you can with your bruiser for the time being. Having all those masters and loosing them will be a great loss. Again do what you feel is right. If it keeps on going the way it is I will just stop playing my bruiser till I get word that the class is getting some [I cannot control my vocabulary] from SOE on like the heal bug, changes for the strgth line aa's and other issues.</p><p>Wonderful post Owain. Makes me feel good reading that because it is so true and more of us should take time to realize that inspite of all that we are facing now.</p><p>I am not so big to the fact of my bruiser being a raid tank, but I would like to see bruisers having something to offer other group/raid members when we are present that is noticable! I also want to see the strgth line adjusted to where we can use it with weapons or our epic.</p><p>Any how I really enjoyed my bruiser and I still play him, but I would like for this stigma of bruisers not being a benefit to groups eliminated with some group buff in the near future. That + to accuracy and % to heals sounded cool that Crabbok posted a while back and the others he mentioned as well.</p><p>Laters</p>

[Beogon]

<p>Fair weather? I've played this class for 3 years, and i have very fond memories. But in the current state its just more depressing than anything. They've been chipping away at this class for years now, and frankly i think sony is rather content to see the class in the dumps. I really have very little hope left at this point.</p><p> Owain great post indeed.  But at what point is it time to stop being stubborn and face the music. If your guild is only gonna roll 1 brawler strong, at what point are you hurting your raid? I was enjoying a dps role in RoK, but now with epics, which are class defining, i envision dark times ahead. Hopefully they will throw us a bone, but tbh i really dont see it happening as our voices go on deaf ears.</p>

[CorpseGoddess]

Great post, Owein, but just a small tweak...not all of us who are dedicated bruisers are "gentlemen".  I, for one, am a lady that takes great pleasure in punching the snot out of things.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[ganjookie]

<span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><i>42</i></b></span><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" class="postbody"><span><i></i></span></span>

[Beogon]

Bruiser have problems with aggro ? You cant be serious. As far the epic graphic its more of a love/ hate than a slam dunk. Personally i like the graphic, but would gladly trade it for a plain lil bo that isnt complete crap. As far as being tanks, that pretty much went out the window with uncontested avoidance, and yes it was intended that way. We are lacking as tanks, and its not in the aggro department, and if you are then your doing something wrong. The strength of this class is the dps, and it has been for awhile, and now that edge is gone. Leaving us as what ? The only redeeming factor was seeing my name at the top of the ZW, and those days are gone. As far as your post on flames, great head scratcher, gratz.

[CorpseGoddess]

/yayThanks for the love for the lady bruiser.  Though we be little, yet we are fierce.I play my bruiser because I'm a melee class at heart and that's what I'm good at and that's what I love.  They can nerf us, ignore us and give us silly looking weapons, but I will still be here.  Because, at the end of the day, a bruiser is what and who I am and what I do well.  Betray---never!*punching the snot out of things since 2006...*

[Pnaxx]

<p>I've been playing a Broozer for a long time...off and on as real life permitts. But I have been one of the few who have been here for the Broozer hayday and now. Yea, we are not as uber. But I honestly can't think of a better, more versitile class to play.</p><p>Everytime I log on, I know I can group as a tank I think any instance. I havn't done some of them, but I have been in some real tough ones. Just led a group through Chardock last night for epic updates. And I am not really uber geared at all. I can solo around all sorts of places to do my quests and I can off tank as a pure dps player.</p><p>I really how other people can play other classes...lol. I have other classes and there is nothing like my Broozer Psok D'Phace.</p><p>The only issue that I covet from the monks is the haste. I would imagine that they do alot more damage during these long fights in the instances where there is alot of time between CA's to refresh, but since we have more burst DPS, in the end we may all be the same.</p><p>So, yea, I understand why you may want to betray, but how in the world could you change from an evil tough [Removed for Content] Broozer to a mellow good natured Monk? How.....how?</p>

[tt66]

<cite>Owain wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody"><p><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;">~Edited to remove the crudely hidden profanity</span></span></p></span> <span class="postbody">Message edited by Gnobrin on <span class="date">02/15/2008 10:45:42</span>.</span></blockquote>See? I <b>told</b> you guys the mods read this forum <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Oh! Does this mean Owain counts as one of the "usual few voices" that the Devs automatically ignore when it comes to bruiser issues now?

[ganjookie]

<cite>42</cite>

[Rayche]

It appears that since Kunark, every Bruiser I know has betrayed to Monk besides me and one other friend.Not that I know a TON of bruisers, but no top end raiding guilds on Antonia Bayle appear to have any full time bruisers.Something about raid mobs constantly mem wiping and Monks having Peel.I'm not betraying, but that's lame that the perception (And apparent need for class that ability) is there.

[Junaru]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It appears that since Kunark, every Bruiser I know has betrayed to Monk besides me and one other friend.Not that I know a TON of bruisers, but no top end raiding guilds on Antonia Bayle appear to have any full time bruisers.Something about raid mobs constantly mem wiping and Monks having Peel.I'm not betraying, but that's lame that the perception (And apparent need for class that ability) is there.</blockquote>Thats odd cause I know 3 Monks that Betrayed to Bruisers when RoK came out. Personally I wouldn't betray my Monk for a Bruiser. But on the other hand if I had a Bruiser I wouldn't betray him for a Monk. The classes are so close that I don't think it's worth it. I agree that the Monk epic is pretty killer. But thats hit expansion. Anyone who has played for a while knows it seems to flip flop back and forth. Who knows what SOE will do next expansion.

[Rayche]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It appears that since Kunark, every Bruiser I know has betrayed to Monk besides me and one other friend.Not that I know a TON of bruisers, but no top end raiding guilds on Antonia Bayle appear to have any full time bruisers.Something about raid mobs constantly mem wiping and Monks having Peel.I'm not betraying, but that's lame that the perception (And apparent need for class that ability) is there.</blockquote>Thats odd cause I know 3 Monks that Betrayed to Bruisers when RoK came out. Personally I wouldn't betray my Monk for a Bruiser. But on the other hand if I had a Bruiser I wouldn't betray him for a Monk. The classes are so close that I don't think it's worth it. I agree that the Monk epic is pretty killer. But thats hit expansion. Anyone who has played for a while knows it seems to flip flop back and forth. Who knows what SOE will do next expansion.</blockquote>I can't imagine why a Monk would betray to a Bruiser (Unless they Solo and Group a lot because we're badass mofo's) but in the raiding scene it appears to be so all about peel that it's not even funny.It wasn't even the Bruiser that decided to betray in some cases, it was the raid leaders that asked them to betray so they could have peel. (Sometimes bringing two Monks onto a raid for multiple peelers.)

[Junaru]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>It appears that since Kunark, every Bruiser I know has betrayed to Monk besides me and one other friend.Not that I know a TON of bruisers, but no top end raiding guilds on Antonia Bayle appear to have any full time bruisers.Something about raid mobs constantly mem wiping and Monks having Peel.I'm not betraying, but that's lame that the perception (And apparent need for class that ability) is there.</blockquote>Thats odd cause I know 3 Monks that Betrayed to Bruisers when RoK came out. Personally I wouldn't betray my Monk for a Bruiser. But on the other hand if I had a Bruiser I wouldn't betray him for a Monk. The classes are so close that I don't think it's worth it. I agree that the Monk epic is pretty killer. But thats hit expansion. Anyone who has played for a while knows it seems to flip flop back and forth. Who knows what SOE will do next expansion.</blockquote>I can't imagine why a Monk would betray to a Bruiser (Unless they Solo and Group a lot because we're badass mofo's) but in the raiding scene it appears to be so all about peel that it's not even funny.It wasn't even the Bruiser that decided to betray in some cases, it was the raid leaders that asked them to betray so they could have peel. (Sometimes bringing two Monks onto a raid for multiple peelers.)</blockquote>I have to agree when it comes to raiding Monks get the upper hand. But as I said before this wasn't always the case and who knows what will have next.Peel is a God sent. But if ever a class needed it, it was the Monk. Put betraying to a Monk seems pointless since SOE has a way of nerfing thing for no reason or warning. You might betray to a Monk only to find Peel, epic, etc etc was nerfed and now Bruisers have the upper hand. Or maybe they give Peel 6k mitigation added to it and Monks become Gods. The point is a near mastered out Bruiser would IMHO be a waste to betray.

[Couching]

The only reason that monk is over bruiser in raid is raidwide buff. Peel is good but it's not good enough to have monk over bruiser. The root problem is why we need 4 bard/enchanters to beat top end encounters?In most min/max guilds, they have 4 bards and 4 enchanters. It means 4 classes have to sit out. Who are going to sit out then?If dev keep buffing some unwelcome classes to welcome, it didn't solve the problem since another classes will sit out.The best example is bruiser and monk.Bruiser is over monk in almost every aspect in KoS and EoF. A lot of monks betrayed to bruiser and most high end guilds have bruiser rather than monk.Then suddenly, it's changed after monk receiving raidwide buff. Did dev solve any problem? Yes, they made monk welcome in min/max raid but they also created another problem, bruiser is unwelcome now.It's not because bruiser sucks, it's because bruiser is not good enough to replace 4th dirge or 4th enchanter. See the problem here?However, even if Dev gave bruiser some god abilities to make it welcome in min/max raid, it still didn't solve the problem since another class will sit out of the raid because people still want to have 4 bards and 4 enchanters.

[Sorffats]

<p>My little diddy for the bruiser (sang to the toon of "Peace Sells" by Megadeth)</p><p>----------------------------------------------------------</p><p>What ya mean I got nerfed again? Why's my avoidance crap?</p><p>What ya mean I didn't make the parse? Where'd my dps go?</p><p>What ya mean I get hit too much? The mage parries more?</p><p>What ya mean I can't tank that mob? Why do ya think my armor's broke?</p><p>"Nerf the Bruiser!", Says the SOE dev!  Another patch, another nerf!</p><p>What ya mean I can't raid with you? The apprentice 1 alt got in?</p><p>What ya mean I got no skills? What you think feign death is?</p><p>What ya mean I can't take no hit? I wear leather, you nub.</p><p>What ya mean I got no skills? SOE made me useless!</p><p>"Nerf the Bruiser!", Says the SOE dev! Another patch, another nerf!</p><p>Nerf! Nerf the Bruiser!</p><p>Nerf! Nerf the Bruiser!</p><p>Nerf the Bruiser! One more time!</p><p>Nerf the Bruiser! One more time!</p><p>Nerf the Bruiser! One more time!</p><p>Nerf the Bruiser! One more time!</p><p>Nerf the Bruiser!</p><p>-------------------------------------------------------------</p>

[Rayche]

heh, I was totally singing that as I read that.Good cover <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Lizardling]

<p>'04 beta bruiser here. We will never be great at tanking or dps but we can always make exceptions. We are in fact hybrid.</p><p> What we really need though is better raid utility. Other than that, just perfect what you do.</p>

[Sorffats]

<p>There are really only two things that we are good for in raids.   One is Bruising Cry (group/raid buff that increases effectiveness of taunts and detaunts for the raid; and increases melee dps).  The other is drag.</p><p>Only one bruiser really ever gets in a raid with my guild.   We occaisionally have two bruisers in a raid, but that isn't something that happens often.   SInce our Bruising Cry is a raid buff, only one of us can have it activated at a time.    As for drag needed for raids, I don't mean that it is needed all the time, but certain situations.</p><p>I've had to drag mobs back to the MT that some over zealous wizzie or warlock spent his wad on one mob and grab agro.   And more recently, I've been the key to killing the second encounter in Kor'Sha.   Sonic Fist + drag one of the nameds in that encounter to the Second Tank group while the Main Tank grabs everything else.   That particular encounter requires that the two nameds are seperated.  Well, maybe not requires, but sure makes it a helluva lot more doable as a city factioned guild on a pvp server.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<p>How much of a difference does haste make on long fights? I know a Monk will have more haste, thus have better AT all things being equal.</p><p>BUt, when Bruisers hit with CA's, do the Bruiser CA's, which are better than Monks I assume, make up for the difference dps wise?</p><p>I am talking about the long fights in the higher instances and raids.</p>

[Aull]

<p>The only place where I am seeing that a monk's haste comes into play is when out of power, and then monks should have the upper hand. However if a bruiser is placed in a proper group that gives haste and other melee bonus's they should parse in most cases just a few hundred dps higher than the monks. Bruisers where meant to be the dps of the brawlers, but that doesn't mean that monks can't dps higher than a bruiser either.</p><p>The other night my bruiser was in a raid and he was placed in a very odd group of four guardians, sk and a templar. My bruiser was still hitting the parse usually 6th to 3rd place with no melee support buffs. If he could have been with a dirge, illusionist, and a zerker he possibly could have been a constant #3 on the parse.</p><p>Bruisers with the proper buffs or say equal haste, dps mods, and equipment should parse higher than all the fighters and just slightly behind the scouts if not rivaling a scouts dps.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p>This argument has been going on for ever, though it has really picked up since monks got peel.  Now with the epic, monks get 50% strikethrough, which is pretty awesome, but wait.... just wait.  </p><p>First off....  strikethrough is really only NEEDED against orange mobs. It won't make much difference in T1-T2 raid zones, nor in any heroic/solo content.  It will basicly just help monks in VP, a zone they can most likely already clear if they were able to get the mythical.  </p><p>Second of all, do you know what SoE does when they get a new keyword?   next expansion, almost every piece of melee gear will have +2% strikethrough, +5% strikethrough....  so on and so forth.  Same thing with wizzy epic and it's double Attack for spells, (should be called doublecast).  you will see it again.  </p><p>3rd of all, we are fighters, which means we are tanks.  we have needed some form of a "Oh Crap" ability for a long time and now we finally have one on the epic, plus 10% damage absorbtion which just rules.  Raid buffed, we can get our mitigation pretty darn high, and with this extra 10%, we could actually take LESS damage than plate tanks.  </p><p>And DPS.... well it's a mythical weapon with a high dmg rating and a dmg proc.  Granted the dmg proc from behind coudl be a bit more, but still if you use this weapon your dps will increase.  Not as much as some other classes, but yoru dps will increase.  </p><p>  I'm sick of bruiser complaining that they won't be able to top the assasin on parse anymore.   Honestly if you are beating your assasin.... get a new assasin.    Bruisers aren't SUPPOSED to be top tier dps.   We are supposed to be good dps, but not top tier. </p>

[Aull]

<cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar</cite> <b><i>wrote:</i></b> <blockquote><p>I'm sick of bruiser complaining that they won't be able to top the assasin on parse anymore.   Honestly if you are beating your assasin.... get a new assasin.    Bruisers aren't SUPPOSED to be top tier dps.   We are supposed to be good dps, but not top tier. </p></blockquote>I agree totally with this statement. We are nice dps and at times can rival scouts if the group make up we are in is great, the scout is in a bad group, or the scout is afk 50% of the raid.

[Rayche]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crabbok@The Bazaar</cite> <b><i>wrote:</i></b> <blockquote><p>I'm sick of bruiser complaining that they won't be able to top the assasin on parse anymore.   Honestly if you are beating your assasin.... get a new assasin.    Bruisers aren't SUPPOSED to be top tier dps.   We are supposed to be good dps, but not top tier. </p></blockquote>I agree totally with this statement. We are nice dps and at times can rival scouts if the group make up we are in is great, the scout is in a bad group, or the scout is afk 50% of the raid.</blockquote>In a bubble that statement sounds fine.I don't hear anybody asking to top scouts in the parse. They're asking for raid utility.Honestly, if a raid force is requiring more than 1 Dirge or Coercer or what have you, consider sharing some of their core abilities to the less raid useful classes.Then they could say "We need at least 2 dirges or a dirge and a bruiser or ranger" etc...They have class ability bleed over all the time. Give Bruisers some form of crowd control (They have wimpy stuns and mezzes already, expand on that?) or turn DEV Fist for Bruisers into a decent stun with small damage on Epics.Give them something akin to Coercer's channel ability where they can take the power and equalize it group-wide. Perhaps give them a power/hp regen buff similar to what Beastlords got in EQ1 to make them raid welcome.It's not hard to come up with some ways to make Bruisers (I add Rangers in there because I hear them having trouble as well?) more desirable in raids, and make them somewhat interchangable with the "Must-Have" classes.

[CorpseGoddess]

I've had a few ideas in that arena myself...pick and choose from the list:Give us more group/raid buffs.  Useful ones. Give us better hate buffs or procs.Give us group rez (I know you can get this from Karana but the reuse timer is bleah).  Great pairing with FD.Give us group invis.Give us track.Basically, we're such a mixed-up muddle of a class anyway that they might as well continue down that path.  Being "useful" in a raid doesn't immediately mean to me that I need to be able to tank or top the dps parse.  Being useful means I can bring something to the raid that another class can't.

[OmniDrac]

<p>I need to first find a group of people that can kill their way into the dragon lair before I can even think about Mythical.   </p><p>Sadly most of those people are now exile on my server.  </p>

[Owa]

<span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;">Yeah no [Removed for Content] mate. Me too.</span>

[Junaru]

It's funny about this thread. Sure come on over to the Monk side where SOE nerfs Peel for no reason.I hate to say I told you so about one or the other being better but sadly SOE just does things, well because.In case you guys don't know what I'm talking about. It seems Peel is being nerfed from 90 second to 9 seconds. I haven't confirmed the length yet but a nerf is a nerf.

[Novusod]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's funny about this thread. Sure come on over to the Monk side where SOE nerfs Peel for no reason.I hate to say I told you so about one or the other being better but sadly SOE just does things, well because.In case you guys don't know what I'm talking about. It seems Peel is being nerfed from <span style="color: #ff0000;">90 second to 9 seconds</span>. I haven't confirmed the length yet but a nerf is a nerf. </blockquote>That is horrible nerf.

[Junaru]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's funny about this thread. Sure come on over to the Monk side where SOE nerfs Peel for no reason.I hate to say I told you so about one or the other being better but sadly SOE just does things, well because.In case you guys don't know what I'm talking about. It seems Peel is being nerfed from <span style="color: #ff0000;">90 second to 9 seconds</span>. I haven't confirmed the length yet but a nerf is a nerf. </blockquote>That is horrible nerf. </blockquote>Hopefully it's wrong. That is what was said in WW Monk channel by two people. I don't see 90s to 9s s slight change like SOE said so I'm more willing to think it's not that bad. Well that my hopes anyways.

[ganjookie]

<cite>42</cite>

[Junaru]

With Peel and Strikethrough nerfed I really think you should betray to a Monk. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Sorffats]

<cite>Owain wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;">Yeah no [I cannot control my vocabulary] mate. Me too.</span></blockquote><p>Ditto.   But I did disco bruiser t8 pvp forearms yesterday. :p   Another bruiser on nagafen disco'd the chest and legs.  I was thinking of saving for the chest and legs, but darn it, I wanted to disco a piece too!   They did replace my t7 pvp forearms and I just happened to have a t8 forearm adornment in my bank ready to apply, so I got a really huge upgrade with the forearms.</p><p>Another couple of pvp writs completed today (I know!  two pvp writs completed in one day!), and with the one I completed yesterday after getting my pvp forearms, I only need another 385 tokens to get another pvp piece!   Thinkin' I'm just going to replace the t7 pvp gear i'm wearing now, then start getting the other pieces.</p>

[novafluxx]

I think its brawlers as a whole, over on the Monk forums anyway, people are saying both Monk and Bruiser are nerffed.Is it true a guardian or zerker can get more avoidance??!?! That  seemingly defeats the whole brawler idea...

[Junaru]

<cite>novafluxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think its brawlers as a whole, over on the Monk forums anyway, people are saying both Monk and Bruiser are nerffed.Is it true a guardian or zerker can get more avoidance??!?! That  seemingly defeats the whole brawler idea... </blockquote><p>In raids I sit around 69% avoidance and 3700mit. Our MT is 65% avoidance and well over 5k mit I'm sure it's 6k or more at this point. Also I'm sure his uncontested avoidance is near double mine.</p><p>In raids he puts around around 1k to 1.5k less DPS then me but thats while I'm full blown offensive. Meaning I'm like 2200mit and 55% avoidance. He on the other hand still hasn't switched to offensive stance.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>novafluxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think its brawlers as a whole, over on the Monk forums anyway, people are saying both Monk and Bruiser are nerffed.Is it true a guardian or zerker can get more avoidance??!?! That  seemingly defeats the whole brawler idea... </blockquote>It's funny, in a Chelsith group last night, there was just 5 of use...we had a 75th level Troub(it was so slow that all we could get  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), 80 Wizzy, me, 79 Zerker, and 80 Fury. He tryed to tank a named and got killed. I got buffed and did just fine...we both used def stance. He told me my mit was just about what his was. I'm sure it has no relevance, but felt like shring it here.