Constructive feedback for Developers on what is preceived to be a MYTHICAL design flaw

[Excalibre33]

<p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="color: #ffffff;">Although </span><b>+100 combat art damage</b></span> is very impressive for many classes, respected members of our raiding community feel that this fantastic effect is sadly wasted on The (<b><span style="color: #cc66cc;">MYTHICAL</span></b>) Truth of Marr. Paladin base Combat Art damage is relatively low and Combat Art Damage enhancements are easily capped in raiding scenarios for this class. This effect being on the this version of the weapon, used only by raiders, in place of comparative useful effects that compliments this class has been perceived as a possible design flaw that can easily be rectified.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0033;"><i>Please only respond with constructive recommendations in answer to the following question:</i> </span></p><hr /><span style="font-size: small;">What should replace the design flaw of the <b><span style="color: #3366ff;">+100 combat art damage</span></b> on the <span style="color: #6666ff;"><b><span style="color: #cc66ff;">MYTHICAL</span> </b></span>upgrade of The Truth of Marr?</span> <hr /><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;color: #ff0033;">(Refrain from comparing classes or epic rewards as, those volatile topics are being debated in other threads. This thread is intended to only be constructive feedback. I am confident that we can phrase our suggestions in such a way that a unified recommendation might be made.)</span></p>

[Excalibre33]

<p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #66ff00;">+7 Extra Shield Block Chance</span></b></p><p><span style="color: #ff0033;">(EDIT: It should be stated that many Paladins feel that superior Shield Block is one of the most important defining & complimenting attributes of the Paladin class, thus the suggestion. We feel that +5 to +7 would fall in line with the logic behind Epic weapon design.)</span></p>

[Tames]

<p>The relatively low spell and CA damage done by Paladins means buffed and geared Pally's easilly hit caps so boosting these with a +100 etc  isnt much help. If you want to increase our damage while in Def stance for instance, to help agro etc then a % increase would be the way to go. This design flaw applies to both fabled and mythical weapons.</p><p>In any case we would prefer (consensus) +BLOCK to be a feature of the fabled and mythical weapons, I  support +5 Block for Fabled and +7 Block for the Mythical Epic. Block supports our role as sheild bearing Def Tanks for the really tough kills.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<cite>Oisin@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #66ff00;">+7 Extra Shield Block Chance</span></b></p><p><span style="color: #ff0033;">(EDIT: It should be stated that many Paladins feel that superior Shield Block is one of the most important defining & complimenting attributes of the Paladin class, thus the suggestion. We feel that +5 to +7 would fall in line with the logic behind Epic weapon design.)</span></p></blockquote>Aye, right what I was thinking and even I agree to those numbers.

[Lunachick]

<p><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #999999;">I have to agree</span><b> +100 combat art damage</b> </span><span style="color: #999999;">doesn't benifit us much, especialy as it's really only going to be raiding Paladins using the weapon who will be maxed or almost maxed out anyhow. Would sooner see it replaced with something that would benifit the Paladin better.<b> </b></span></span><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #66cc00;"><b>+7 Shield Block</b></span> <span style="color: #999999;">would be an obvious choise & usefull ability to have on the sword or even increase<b> </b><span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>Melee crit to +8</b> </span><span style="color: #999999;">& have<b> </b></span><span style="color: #66cc00;"><b>+5 Shield Block<span style="color: #999999;">.  </span></b></span></span></span></p>

[Kahling]

<p>Personally after using the Fabled for a while now I am really liking everything it brings me, the proc rate is perfect and it increaes my spell damage and the ward which I use often by a nice ammount for the effort involved in getting it.</p><p>The mythical also seems to suit us if u ask me, surely you can spec your equipment differntly so you dont reach ca cap?</p><p>What I will say though is the soulfire and lucanic swords in T7 both had +5 shield block on them.  Allot of people are going to miss this and are not going to use the epic in its fabled form because of this loss.</p><p>My opinion, the fabled needs +5 shield block adding for all plate tank weapons and the mythical needs +7 shield block adding for all plate tank weaps.  That way every plat tank wont have the option of a lvl 67 sword outshining their lvl 80 meant to be a special one off.</p><p>Dont remove a thing just add the above to all the plate weaps is my thought.</p>

[Tames]

<p>Kathless I can see how the existing design benefits would be there for soloers or people doing small groups with no real buffs, however these weapons are supposed to be designed to help raiding Paladins tank T8 zones. </p><p>To tank nasty mobs you need survivability, some extra DPS or healing (when you arent healing in a raid anyway) doesnt help you survive in this situation. Not many Guilds will be outfitting with mythical this expansion as most wont be doing VP, but the fabled should still be able to help their Paladins tank and survive lower level T8 raids. The current design doesnt help much with this.</p><p>If you get good gear with +damage on it why shouldnt you use it? Nearly all our spells/CA's do low level damage compared to other classes, its easier to hit the 50% cap with decent buffs and some plus spell/CA gear.</p>

[Obfw Striker]

I would like to see at least +7 shield block on the Mythical Paladin weapon. Plus CA damage does not help me.

[Excalibre33]

<p>Another <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/20507-paladin-mythical-epic-suggested-changes.html#post464186" target="_blank">thread </a>that is truly shaping up to be quite constructive and will stay that way as flames are unwelcome in that thread. So feel free to chime in with all of your positive ideas unrelated or in addition to the replacement of <span style="color: #00ccff;"><b>+100 combat art damage</b></span>. </p><p><i>(On a side note: I am a bit unsure how the word "f"eedback get's gobbled up by the [I cannot control my vocabulary] goblin. nbd /shrug)</i></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;color: #ff0033;">EDIT: Lack of spell check ftl</span></p>

[Kahling]

<p>Hmm Ive run some numbers and ok yeah I am hitting ca cap on allot of the them when my leviathan girdle goes off, plus some combat adorns so I hear what your saying with the +100 ca.</p><p>I still wouldnt want that changing in to somthing else though, I would still preffere to see +5block and +7block respectivly on all the plate tank weaps.</p>

[Kahling]

Maybe change the 100ca to +400 to Prayer?  Overpowered at 400, no I dont think so it would bring the ward up to being more usefull when allied with the 10% + 10% heal.

[Excalibre33]

<p>That is out of the box thinking. I like it, Kahless. I'd say I agree with the community that <span style="color: #99ff00;"><b>+5 Shield Block Chance </b></span>is the right way to go for all raid tank weapons as the standard was set in the endgame of the last expansion. With the expectation that <span style="color: #99ff00;"><b>+5 Shield Block Chance</b></span> will be added in the line of bonuses above (possibly in place of <span style="color: #99ff00;"><b>+8</b></span> to <span style="color: #99ff00;"><b>+10 Slashing </b></span>depending on the weapon), I concur that a <span style="color: #00ffff;"><b>boost to our ward</b> </span>would fall right in line with the expectations that players have for this class. Nice thinking.</p>

[motogp]

Not many Paladins are posting anymore about this so called Mythical weapon. Looks too me like we lost the fight and Guardians will remain the 1 Tank too Tank them all. Congratulations on your Victory Guards, you are now Better for the MT roll and the Off Tank roll. Heck, with all the dps you will be doing now. Why have any Plate tank in a raid but a Guard.  " wish i had your connections".    My Guard will be lvl 80 soon. See you at the TOP buds.

[Excalibre33]

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not many Paladins are posting anymore about this so called Mythical weapon. Looks too me like we lost the fight and Guardians will remain the 1 Tank too Tank them all. Congratulations on your Victory Guards, you are now Better for the MT roll and the Off Tank roll. Heck, with all the dps you will be doing now. Why have any Plate tank in a raid but a Guard.  " wish i had your connections".    My Guard will be lvl 80 soon. See you at the TOP buds.</blockquote>Nothing has been lost. At this point there is only a chance at gain. Paladins will be just fine if we don't loose heart friend.

[Anurra]

I support a replacement for the +100 CA damage as well. I have hit the cap (before) in causal/solo play and I do not raid. Dealing damage is the least of my problems and I would enjoy seeing more +block items out there. I support +5 block on fable and +7 on the mythical version.

[Kahling]

<p>I support +5 block fabled, +7 block mythical accross the board for plate tank weaps.</p><p> I also say as the above should be standard that the +100ca be changed to between +400 and 1000 on Prayer.  This weap is going to be used in raid content therefore the ward needs to be usefull in that situation.  (I could be way off with 400 to 1000, but it should be based on other wards and the 15 sec recast time and the cast time of other wards)</p>

[Tames]

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I also say as the above should be standard that the +100ca be changed to between +400 and 1000 on Prayer.  This weap is going to be used in raid content therefore the ward needs to be usefull in that situation.  (I could be way off with 400 to 1000, but it should be based on other wards and the 15 sec recast time and the cast time of other wards)</p></blockquote><p>If we want to go with big damage/heal increases then they need to be immune to the caps otherwise they are worthless. Personally I am still pushing for Block as a primary feature. </p><p>The Holy Avenger isnt as good as it first appears as most raid encounters are single mobs which limits whatever healage it will be providing in theory, I would like to see some figures on what it does but doesnt seem that useful.</p><p>Anyway the longer it takes for a design flaw to be fixed the more entrenched it becomes, I had hoped to see some indication that a fix was in the works by now.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Boli32]

opps wrong post... but yeah fully in favour of +5 shield block... as it stands right nwo I don;t xonsider the epic to be an upgade of SoD.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Just to belabor the obvious, +5 block, please.

[JFanta]

I think the effect of <b>Marr's Favor</b> is a <span style="color: #cc0033;">wrong </span>design. It only affects 3 of our attack spells, so it's useless for our dps. It boosts heals only. Then 2 of the 3 effect on mythical version is for HEAL. None of them helps our dps. We r more like a healer ( than a priest). I think there is one effect  which helps our dps at least. So please change it to increase all of heals, spells, and combat arts, and proc by any attacks, not cast a spell. proc by spell is very hard for a paladin.

[Madbiker]

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The mythical also seems to suit us if u ask me, surely you can spec your equipment differntly so you dont reach ca cap?</p></blockquote>Let me find my legendary quest reward gear i suppose and trash everything I've gotten from VP, not to mention the pally BP has +125 combat art too

[Boethius_Permafrost]

I've heard that marr's favor procs frequently.  It's probably just worded wrong in the description.It would be nice if the proc also had a direct damage component, but if the sword had 5% block chance, everyone would be happy.

[Kahling]

<cite>Madbiker wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The mythical also seems to suit us if u ask me, surely you can spec your equipment differntly so you dont reach ca cap?</p></blockquote>Let me find my legendary quest reward gear i suppose and trash everything I've gotten from VP, not to mention the pally BP has +125 combat art too</blockquote><p>Aye mate your right I ran the numbers and the 100+ca that the above quote referes to is a daft addition meaning you will reach level cap.  </p><p>As I said after this and before you quoted me a good idea would be to change the CA damage to an increase in our ward to a usable in VP ammount.</p><p>Regards</p><p>Kahling</p>

[Madbiker]

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Madbiker wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The mythical also seems to suit us if u ask me, surely you can spec your equipment differntly so you dont reach ca cap?</p></blockquote>Let me find my legendary quest reward gear i suppose and trash everything I've gotten from VP, not to mention the pally BP has +125 combat art too</blockquote><p>Aye mate your right I ran the numbers and the 100+ca that the above quote referes to is a daft addition meaning you will reach level cap.  </p><p>As I said after this and before you quoted me a good idea would be to change the CA damage to an increase in our ward to a usable in VP ammount.</p><p>Regards</p><p>Kahling</p></blockquote>If they add an effect to increase ward amount I will choke someone.  Where on earth do you get the idea that enhancing 1 spell makes this thing useful, especially for raiders. I am struggling to parse 2.2k while my guard is now parsing up to 5k. What this weapon needs is a short range aoe divine proc, that does a substantial amount, with a high proc rate. Good luck holding agro in avatar encounters

[Tames]

<cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've heard that marr's favor procs frequently.  It's probably just worded wrong in the description.It would be nice if the proc also had a direct damage component, but if the sword had 5% block chance, everyone would be happy.</blockquote>Proccing frequently when you are at cap or near it and dont get any benefit is a 'no result' as far as I am conerned. If it procs 10 times a minute for 10 extra dam or heal before you cap out is only 100/min net benefit, for example.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

I was talking to the person who thought it wouldn't even proc (because the description leads you to think it requires a cast spell).  I didn't comment on whether +spell/+heal would help you.  Just that it will happen.

[Kahling]

<p>Well the problem then Madbiker is that you are more qualified to comment on this than me as you have the weapon, it will be June ish I would say before I am in a position to comment.  I was just throwing the idea of increasing the ward out there instead of the +100ca.</p>

[Meirril]

<p>Two thoughts. Instead of a block increase, how about a percentage increase to damage output? Like say a 5% increase to spell and CA damage instead of +100CA damage? This would have the same result and be more consistant.</p><p>Instead of the proc effect that raises our spell damage and healing instead put in a proc that increases all healing we receive by 20% and gives us 50% of the agro caused by healing us for that duration? While our DPS wouldn't change, we would receive a significant bonus towards tanking. </p><p>Another alternative would be a proc reactive shield that reflects an attack and maybe heals the entire raid for a small amount. This is similar to the dispersion effect, and should result in significant agro to make up for a lack of DPS.</p><p>Also, how about an effect to remove the 50% limitation on DA? The limitation as it stands means this AA line is good for group tanking, but significantly less effective for raiding. </p>

[Excalibre33]

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Two thoughts. Instead of a block increase, how about a percentage increase to damage output? Like say a 5% increase to spell and CA damage instead of +100CA damage? This would have the same result and be more consistant.</p><p>Instead of the proc effect that raises our spell damage and healing instead put in a proc that increases all healing we receive by 20% and gives us 50% of the agro caused by healing us for that duration? While our DPS wouldn't change, we would receive a significant bonus towards tanking. </p><p>Another alternative would be a proc reactive shield that reflects an attack and maybe heals the entire raid for a small amount. This is similar to the dispersion effect, and should result in significant agro to make up for a lack of DPS.</p><p>Also, how about an effect to remove the 50% limitation on DA? The limitation as it stands means this AA line is good for group tanking, but significantly less effective for raiding. </p></blockquote>Nice post. Good stuff.

[motogp]

The Guardian Mythical is still an Awsome Tank weapon. And the Paladin Mythical is still a crap box.  All the post's about making it a tank item has fallen on deaf ears. IMO we should all stop playing the Paladin class and allow it to dissolve into nothingness. The world of EQ2 will soon run with Guard as MT and Guard as OT.  Math does not lie. Good luck to those who hold on to the pally class. You will need it.

[Tames]

<p>Well while I am pretty keen ro see the +5/+7 block on our epics I do see the point to a DPS increase, and an increase like a +% isnt subject to caps and therefore of some use to us.</p><p>DPS isnt just agro but in raids where max DPS counts for a lot (as mobs have 100000000000hp) everyone must max their DPS. </p><p>In my Guild We run with Guard MT and Zerk OT, this is pretty much rusted on, when I have got a run as MT etc I have done well but it hasnt been in top tier zones and often I am not placed on a raid at all. Therefore I dont have the same damage output etc as the Guard MT and Zerk OT because I dont have the gear that they have. You end up in a feedback loop, because you dont have the gear you dont get on the raids, that get you the gear, that gets you raid spots etc. I am my Guilds only Pally mainly because of the stigma against Pals btw, I was invited initially to use my Swashy and only after a looong time using my Pal in Guild groups was I offered the chance to return to my Pally (former main in a previous guild).</p><p>So having a damage increase component to the Epic is still very useful and it should be at least on par with Guards and Zerk epics if not better.</p>

[Excalibre33]

<p>Using this reasoning, it does not seem to be working as intended for dramatically improving our DPS in place of tankability. I've yet to be convinced the weapon's design is not to be questioned and strongly believe <span style="color: #00ffff;"><b>+100 combat art damage</b></span> on top of already capped combat art damage is one reason for this.</p><p>Does this single item mean that an entire class and community of players is now worthless and we should bail from a sinking ship? Certainly not. A great Paladin is still a great Paladin and it doesn't matter what sword is in their hand. We keep fighting the good fight with our heads held high and hold fast on the thought that this was just an accidental lack of testing and not blatant neglect. </p><p>We are tankers and SoE is designing and itemizing the Paladin class in this direction. This <b><span style="color: #9966ff;">MYTHICAL</span></b> design flaw could not have been intentional.</p>

[Tames]

<p>Since you can check my earlier posts on the +100CA disaster you will know that I agree with you <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I do think that DPS increases for spells/CA's shouldnt be subject to caps on the Epics for a start and for +Block to be on both.</p><p>Its not just the +100CA but also the +spell proc (based on wisdom) which is also subject to caps (therefore of little use when capped out in raids). So we are stuffed both ways.</p><p>Since there is wide agreement that  these procs and effects are design flaws producing a net nil improvement for the raiding these weapons are designed for I am left still waiting for an SOE response. I would have thought a simple <i>"We are working on addressing these unintended design issues and a fix should be in 2 patches from now" </i>would have at least let us know progress was being made. They have said in the past that they are itemising Paladins for their tank role, if thats the case then the Epics are a logical place to have done it properly and put some effort into getting it right. We have apparently fallen into a chasm... between what is said and what is done  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>However at the end of the day we must judge them by results, since what is said cant be counted on (although nothing is being said so far, so we dont even have that) and so far we are still waiting for anything to be done. </p><p>Cheer up though, they found time to fix the Thuuga Bangle for casters <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Fellindar]

First off im not a true raider so this may be way off but I think the Mythical version of Truth of Marr would look better like this:Add a plus block to it and scrap holy avenger for an on equip effect that makes heals + wards instant cast. Instant cast heals + wards might be overpowered in solo/group but since this weapon is only really going to see raid content I dont see the issue.Edit: Removed dodgy image after vit pointed out it was wrong! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Felindar, have you considered using the existing focus skill and "beneficial spell haste" effect to obtain the outcome you want?Also, I was wondering how +spell/+heal compare to direct intelligence for the purposes of spell damage with our low damage procs and spells.  What if that particular proc made our int and wisdom both effectively equal to their sum?  Just brainstorming.  I haven't parsed raw int vs. +spell damage.

[Keff]

Paladin on Antonia Bayle from Day 1, and now on Venekor (PVP), I always having to fight the "Not a Raid Tank" Stigma. I completely agree with the change of CA boost to +5 and +7 block chance on the fabled and Mythical weapons respectively.

[Fellindar]

<cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Felindar, have you considered using the existing focus skill and "beneficial spell haste" effect to obtain the outcome you want?Also, I was wondering how +spell/+heal compare to direct intelligence for the purposes of spell damage with our low damage procs and spells.  What if that particular proc made our int and wisdom both effectively equal to their sum?  Just brainstorming.  I haven't parsed raw int vs. +spell damage.</blockquote>I have looked at reducing my casting times with those methods although i haven never impacted on my casting timers much as I wear mostly EoF/RoK legendary equipment.Can you feisably reduce your casting times all the way down to instant on wards etc?

[Gwarsh]

+5(Epic) +7(Mythical) shield blockand fix marr's favor so it actually does somethingnice idea, poor execution

[Demoley]

sheild effectivness is not block.........its how well the shield is used adding over all 1.5 block....

[Fellindar]

<cite>Virutis@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>sheild effectivness is not block.........its how well the shield is used adding over all 1.5 block....</blockquote>Ah ok. my bad, tnx for letting me know lol <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Tames]

<p>GU43 on test?</p><p>If you read it you will see <b><i>no</i></b> changes to Paladin items or abilities. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Judging them by what they do.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Prrasha]

<cite>Felindar@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Can you feisably reduce your casting times all the way down to instant on wards etc?</blockquote>No, you can't ever cast a spell faster than half of its base casting time, regardless of how much casting haste you can stack up.

[motogp]

Truly, If the weapon is not changed the Paladin community should all quit the game. Why settle for  2nd place? That weapon is a 2nd place item. Its not a mythical weapon when looking at the guard mythical. If the Guardians got the Mythical we got do you think they would settle? Cmon lets not accept that as our Class defining weapon. I know most have given up already. "you have and use the weapon daily"  For real...what would the Guardians have done if they got our Mythical and we got thiers?  What ever, the yo yo's at the dev team are happy with there creation but im not.

[Gwarsh]

i agree with moto, as a stand alone weapon, it isnt bad, but there is nothing "Epic" about it.  It does not play on our strengths or mitigate our weaknesses, it's "special" abilities are intentionally or not, subpar with other tanking epics.  I would just like one dev to step in here and say whether they are working on it or not, so i know if its time to retire my favorite toon for one that gets more love from the powers that be.

[NANEEJE]

<p>I am kind of curious what role the Dev's think we are supposed to be playing, they give us holy ground, which puts us 24 places up... but then give us divine aura with an ungodly long casting time and reuse timer...and force you to either take up a struggling healer role or a main tank role with a few shortfalls. How often is reinforcement recast on a guardian by the way? </p><p>But back to the Mythical, what do you think the exact role that weapon was created for? Obviously not main raid tank, but what is the role?</p>

[ArcticFlare Arcadi]

<p>The weapon is more for a secondary tank and thats what SOE sees us as. At the end of the day SOE holds all the cards to the game and were stuck with the joker card. I do feel the weapon is not well suited to our class due to the fact the community most of the time uses a  secondary tank to fill the main tanks void.I see this everyday when I log on rarely im invited to a group just to be a secondary tank. About 98% of my time in groups is main tanking period. As how my pally stands for now this weapon does not fall into my effectiveness with my Pally's server community. They expect me to tank and I have to deliver and I need the weaponds,armor,adornments,and buffs to work for me. Soo in closing since this weapon dosent serve me in any way shape or form I have just move on and not let this affect my other goals and quests I have set for my pally. </p><p> Its interesting If SOE creates a weapon and no one uses it..Then they have wasted their time and resourses.</p>

[Meirril]

<cite>NANEEJE wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am kind of curious what role the Dev's think we are supposed to be playing, they give us holy ground, which puts us 24 places up... but then give us divine aura with an ungodly long casting time and reuse timer...and force you to either take up a struggling healer role or a main tank role with a few shortfalls. How often is reinforcement recast on a guardian by the way? </p><p>But back to the Mythical, what do you think the exact role that weapon was created for? Obviously not main raid tank, but what is the role?</p></blockquote><p>I'm thinking the epic was designed by well intentioned people that looked at what paladin abilties do and said to themselves "lets give them more!" </p><p>Honestly, we don't need another heal. While we're kings of holding agro on a group of mobs...the entire paradim of mob placement has gone away from multiple mobs in a single linked encounter and thus away from our tanking strength. Giving us huge bonuses to spells and healing because that is was is unique to us as tanks...we just don't have enough spells to make this worth while. Also as a tank, its difficult to use spells due to interupts and movement. </p><p>So really, I don't think they intended any role here. I think they just wanted to give us more of the same. Too bad they didn't ask "what do paladins lack?" instead.</p>

[Kahling]

<p>Ive posted this in flames as well but wanted to put the idea out there here on the official forums.</p><p> Would be nice if the mythical did somthing with our aa's what if it increased every aa by x1.2 or x1.4 or somthing, imagine it, shield block would be 24x1.2 = +28.8%, divine aura would be 50%x1.2 =60%, just check out the rest even x1.2 is nice everything is 20% better, haste, melle aoe. And it would fit us cos its our aa's (hp increase of sentrys bulwark another good example = 4.8% insead of 4% with 8 points in it)Of casue I preffere the x1.4 idea (40%) but x1.2 would be very nice.Just think the above would be an awsome thing to have, would be individual to us and would improve our dps and tanking but allow you to tailor just as u we do now.</p>

[Tames]

<p>When is some official indication (apart from an ad hoc response to a webcast question) of change is to be made on SOE forums?</p><p>So far we have an unofficial "trust us we are working on Epics and VP gear" which is hard to accept since this would have been the same response before the flawed itemisation occured in the first place.</p><p>I suppose its hard to give any indication when GU44 changes can be bumped by other priorities that can occur on an ad hoc basis ("Barbies new hat&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that can occur with any large organisation.</p>

[Meirril]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When is some official indication (apart from an ad hoc response to a webcast question) of change is to be made on SOE forums?</p><p>So far we have an unofficial "trust us we are working on Epics and VP gear" which is hard to accept since this would have been the same response before the flawed itemisation occured in the first place.</p><p>I suppose its hard to give any indication when GU44 changes can be bumped by other priorities that can occur on an ad hoc basis ("Barbies new hat"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> that can occur with any large organisation.</p></blockquote><p>It would be very difficult to think that development could come up with a higher priority issue than epics for the people involved. It isn't like they have to monkey around with art assets. (maybe they should, but that's another matter entirely.) Your talking about revamping base effects on at most 24 items. After they come up with a good idea of what they want the changes to be it shouldn't take too long to impliment unless they come with something totally new and they need code people to help out. </p><p>Of course, if they actually are listning to this feedback we're giving they are going to have to choose one and figure out how to make it fit with their own idea of game balance. </p>

[Tames]

<p>Hmm but it <i>must </i>be very hard for them to do because it isnt happening.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I always though good CS was keeping customers in the loop, when this doesnt happen I expect the worst. </p><p>How much effort does it take for an update paragraph on this issue?</p><p>I am beginning to think GU44 will be an exciting new pet or new town clothes from the faction vendor!</p><p>However theres always always GU45 in 6 months time isnt there? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Kratoswra]

<p>Just giving my support to the cause.</p><p>All SKs also want the change in epic so i have made a post in gameplay discussion with what i think would help all crusaders. If anyone got a dev response let us know.</p>

[VerdicAysen]

I think a very interesting effect would be a more novel effect. While it doesn't focus on "Block" it would focus more on hate gain and supporting the healers in the group. Like 65% Chance to Cast "Wave of Marr" on group/raid on succesful melee hit. An often proccing large group heal that maybe  increases our threat spot may add to the healing and taunting utility. I mean, if they are trying to increase our utility afterall, a damage dealing/threat dealing + Group Heal combo supported by an Epic weapon might not be a horrible way to go. I'm sure it's not the popular opinion, but just throwing some constructive suggestion out there.

[Hoppit]

<p>I realize that I'm a long way from getting this Mythical weapon, and that when I do it will most likely be grossly outdated (I finally got my Fiery Avenger in EQLive and it was just a pretty thing I would wear around PoK on my pally (non-unicorn thank you) mount for looks.</p><p>I would suggest that for this incarnation that Sony put a lot more thought into what Pallies CAN be rather than what they ARE (a sentiment that I feel is common on this thread). We currently seem to be offtanks primarily, and occasionally main tank some of the lower content. The best comment I saw on another thread was that there shouldn't be "1 tank to tank them all." After I left EQ1, I went over to WoW and found that this phenomena there relegated virtually all tanking duties to 1 class. The problem with that is that it marginalizes the possible variety. EQ2 has tons of choices for race and class. Why make it so that I have to play Guardian to be a real tank? I understand balance is hard to achieve, but +100 to combat arts? LOL even a very high DPS rating 2hander with mitigation on it and inherent 2H bash (Pally epic from EQLive) would be better in a lot of ways.</p><p>That said, I put several years into my paladin on EQLive, and will likely do the same here. I just hope that I'm not the gimptarded 2nd rate OffTank that SOE seems to be turning us into by the time I can really enjoy endgame.</p>

[Tames]

<p>Well GU 44 has come and no changes to Fabled or Myth Epic, no official word from Devs on when/if it will be fixed or if they are looking at it.</p><p>/crickets</p>

[motogp]

Its odd a "tank" class does not have 1 single  0 nada zip abilty to prevent incoming damage. I think we all know that Paladins will never get a TOS - stone sphere -mit buff - self AE immunity- AA line block or taunt while stunned.  There was alot of hope in that Paladin Mythical. Only to be let down hard<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.  I have been told by some, to just accept that we will not get any abilty to keep us on par with Guards. When i read the test notes Paladins were getting Holyground,   to me that was a sign that SOE had good plans for the class. I dont find it fun putting all my time into a class thinking its going to be a viable main tank. To only see guards lock down that roll better than ever.

[Brizlor]

<p>I know a lot of classes complain about their Epic and I believe if they revamp / update them, it will be all at once. Mainly to try to keep stuff as balance as possible.</p><p>A nice way to increase our dps would be also to change the Proc Effect to boost the BASE Damage of Spell and Arts. If the base damage is increase, then our "cap" will also get increase and will make high end pally have a better use of their gear. </p><p>A bonus to shield of some sort would be nice to make Paladin, once again, the class that benefice the most of a shield. </p><p>3rd but none the less make the Damage rating much higher then a regular 1hander (180+). You might think its very high but since Paladin (like SK) cant DW, I dont think it would be over power (they did something similar with sk/pally only weapon with a much higher damage in eq1 to help their dps).</p><p>On side note to me, a paladin that complain that cant tank as well as a guard is very similar to a illu that complain that he cant dps as high as a wizard. Answer is simple, ITS NOT MEANT to be like that and will never be. But then again, to some people since I dont have my access to VP I am a total ignorant that doesn't know crap about this game even if I've been around since day 1.</p>

[motogp]

<cite>Brizlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I know a lot of classes complain about their Epic and I believe if they revamp / update them, it will be all at once. Mainly to try to keep stuff as balance as possible.</p><p>A nice way to increase our dps would be also to change the Proc Effect to boost the BASE Damage of Spell and Arts. If the base damage is increase, then our "cap" will also get increase and will make high end pally have a better use of their gear. </p><p>A bonus to shield of some sort would be nice to make Paladin, once again, the class that benefice the most of a shield. </p><p>3rd but none the less make the Damage rating much higher then a regular 1hander (180+). You might think its very high but since Paladin (like SK) cant DW, I dont think it would be over power (they did something similar with sk/pally only weapon with a much higher damage in eq1 to help their dps).</p><p>On side note to me, a paladin that complain that cant tank as well as a guard is very similar to a illu that complain that he cant dps as high as a wizard. Answer is simple, ITS NOT MEANT to be like that and will never be. But then again, to some people since I dont have my access to VP I am a total ignorant that doesn't know crap about this game even if I've been around since day 1.</p></blockquote>Yes, ignorant does best describe you. If you play a tank class and your main concern is dps? Then you have gone and fooled your self my friend. Tanks number 1 priority is reducing the amount of "incoming" damage. "Not there out going damage".  You have been playing since day 1 huh?   Have a nice day.......

[Demoley]

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brizlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I know a lot of classes complain about their Epic and I believe if they revamp / update them, it will be all at once. Mainly to try to keep stuff as balance as possible.</p><p>A nice way to increase our dps would be also to change the Proc Effect to boost the BASE Damage of Spell and Arts. If the base damage is increase, then our "cap" will also get increase and will make high end pally have a better use of their gear. </p><p>A bonus to shield of some sort would be nice to make Paladin, once again, the class that benefice the most of a shield. </p><p>3rd but none the less make the Damage rating much higher then a regular 1hander (180+). You might think its very high but since Paladin (like SK) cant DW, I dont think it would be over power (they did something similar with sk/pally only weapon with a much higher damage in eq1 to help their dps).</p><p>On side note to me, a paladin that complain that cant tank as well as a guard is very similar to a illu that complain that he cant dps as high as a wizard. Answer is simple, ITS NOT MEANT to be like that and will never be. But then again, to some people since I dont have my access to VP I am a total ignorant that doesn't know crap about this game even if I've been around since day 1.</p></blockquote>Yes, ignorant does best describe you. If you play a tank class and your main concern is dps? Then you have gone and fooled your self my friend. Tanks number 1 priority is reducing the amount of "incoming" damage. "Not there out going damage".  You have been playing since day 1 huh?   Have a nice day.......</blockquote>come out from anon, let us see who you are, if you cant dps you cant hold aggro, aggro is our number one priority, staying alive is 2nd. so in a way dps is key....so once again who are you again? seems to me just another bitter person who got shafted in because they werent very good, and instead of figuring out how to improve you would rather rag on everyone else, come over to flames see how ya do there <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[motogp]

Nice try Bud. Since when does identity coincide with fact?  Im going to let you in on a secret, Zerkers and Guards need dps as there main agrro control. You are a Paladin, Agrro is effortless . The main concern as a Paladin should be the lowering of incoming damage.   Go to eq2flames?  You need back up or somethig?   SOE no longer recognizes that site. Neither do i ...

[Demoley]

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice try Bud. Since when does identity coincide with fact?  Im going to let you in on a secret, Zerkers and Guards need dps as there main agrro control. You are a Paladin, Agrro is effortless . The main concern as a Paladin should be the lowering of incoming damage.   Go to eq2flames?  You need back up or somethig?   SOE no longer recognizes that site. Neither do i ...</blockquote>lol try holding aggro based on amends and sigil with the dps some of the top end guilds are pushing out....you wont do it, you have to dps too. you have no leg to stand on with your facts. so once again come over to flames. you'll find more fact there than you ever will on these boards.

[Kahling]

<p>What about adding a clicky that changes trample from aoe melle to DA until cancelled.</p>

[Brizlor]

<p>I though you were gonna quit your pally ? bah false hope I guess. And yes, I am more concerne about my dps then anything else. Why ? Because I am one of those ignorant pally that think we should never tank over a guardian. And to correct myself, I've been around the game since day 1 but I've been only playing paladin for about a year. So yeah, I dont have as much experiance as some of you but at least I dont whine everywhere about Pally not being to tank as good as Paladin.</p><p>And Motogp what is your problem? All you do on those boards is either flame someone, oh sorry flame some ignorant person, or whine at how you cant tank as well as guard or just paladin class. And then you wonder why Sony stop checking this forum ? lol, people like you amaze me.</p><p>**Removed swear</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Brizlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I though you were gonna quit your pally ? bah false hope I guess. And yes, I am more concerne about my dps then anything else. Why ? Because I am one of those ignorant pally that think we should never tank over a guardian. And to correct myself, I've been around the game since day 1 but I've been only playing paladin for about a year. So yeah, I dont have as much experiance as some of you but at least I dont whine everywhere about Pally not being to tank as good as Paladin.</p><p>And Motogp [I cannot control my vocabulary] is your problem? All you do on those boards is either [I cannot control my vocabulary] at someone, oh sorry [I cannot control my vocabulary] at some ignorant person, or [I cannot control my vocabulary] at how we cant tank as well as guard or just paladin class. And then you wonder why Sony stop checking this forum ? lol, you people amaze me.</p></blockquote>who are you? and not everyone complains, i have no real issues with the paladin class....if you would do your research im the one who's been banned/suspended from these boards countless times for defending our class...as far as your statement bout paladins never tanking over guards, i lol'd ive tanked everything our guard has, on the important kills such as avatars i handle adds, he handles the mob, our tank set up works well.....paladins are great tanks, just lacking the oh crap stuff like tos but that is what a guard does best, our bread and butter is aggro control. hence we are used in different roles....

[Brizlor]

<p>I never meant to target you Demoley. I know you are one of the core defender of our class and you have learn to be best with what SoE give us. I should have quote motogp to imply i was targetting him mainly, all the whiners that complain they dont have ToS or toy like that or people that call me ignorant for thinking Guardian are and should be better MT then pally.</p><p>I am sorry I explain myself very poorly, what I meant is Paladin can tank stuff guardian can, of course we can. All I was saying is if you have a guard MT with equivalent gear, its just easier for the healer to keep him up. Multi encounter adds ? Of course paladin are better choice. Like you said, we just have 2 differents role.</p><p>btw I play Brizlor on crushbone and working on VS with the people I raid with. All I wanted to do is post a few ideas I didn't saw to change our mysthical, lol bad idea I guess. I will just go back to my no posting state since I express myself poorly. lol.</p>

[Tames]

Hmm Devs are strating to comment on GU 45 (Coercers info), nothing yet on Paladins or Epics in general. I wonder if Wis AA and our 3 "oh sh*t" spells will get a look also? /crickets

[motogp]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm Devs are strating to comment on GU 45 (Coercers info), nothing yet on Paladins or Epics in general. I wonder if Wis AA and our 3 "oh sh*t" spells will get a look also? /crickets</blockquote>Coercers are being looked at because they were all quiting the game. Every time you log in your Paladin and swing that so called Mythical-fable epic, you just prolong any chance of the class being looked at. If Guardians keep getting all the upgrades they are getting, Do you really think Paladins have a future....?    I rolled a tank class to tank.  Or i was lead to believe Paladins were Tanks. The class should be renamed -->  " the x2 or heroic adds getter guy"

[Tames]

Still no response from Devs /crickets <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[motogp]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still no response from Devs /crickets <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>There was a very important response......... <li><i>Crusader</i>The Paladin and Shadowknight squires should no longer look differently after zoning.</li>

[Tames]

<p>Ah yes the much anticipated GU45 changes for Crusaders, I could barely contain my excitement when I saw the results of all our feedback. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=416561�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...416561�</a> </p><p>When there is no response to our posts it appears that there really <i>is </i>nothing going on behind the scenes... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>No timelines for change, indeed nothing at all about anything...</p>

[Caetrel]

<p>At least they aren't fixing other epics while leaving ours as is <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.  Coercers do need some love.  </p><p>I'm saving up my angst for when they fail to change our epics, or make them worse. </p>

[Tames]

<p>Still nothing, /crickets <img src="http://eq2flames.com/images/smilies/smiley-surprised.gif" border="0" alt="" width="16" height="16" />Despite massive feedback on this there hasnt been an official acknowledgement that they were even aware of it on official forums. </p><p>At least we could have been told "its working as intended, dont bother posting" have we wasted our time trying to put forward constructive suggestions? How many GU and still no action, or even a response?</p>

[Tames]

<p>OK so we are getting any response on our concerns? We are getting publicity blurbs for GU up to GU 49 atm, has anybody seen anything relevent to Paladins in all the froth?</p><p>Not holding my breath but you never know... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Pnaxx]

I see the devs are hard at work responding. What a joke. They say they don't answer if the post sounds too negative, but when the OP goes out of his way to be uber respectful, still there is no freakin response. NICE!

[Tames]

<p>I regret to say that Oisin, the thread starter, has since left EQ2 out of sorrow and despair. He tried the high road and found it led nowhere...</p><p> Meanwhile /crickets...</p>

[Gwarsh]

<p>considering it took them over 2 weeks to shut down the "born followers" thread.. and that was only because it was reported, i'm not sure why anyone is suprised.  maybe if If this thread got reported someone would look at it?</p><p>edit.. </p><p>/salute oisin, you always had good advice on these forums, and on flames.  the game is a sadder place with you gone.</p>

[Tames]

<p>/crickets once again <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>As ye sow, so shall ye reap...</p><p><a href="http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html</a> <a href="http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/</a> FYI <img src="http://www.boohaar.com/cotd/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="Very Happy" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Effie]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>/crickets once again <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>As ye sow, so shall ye reap...</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html" target="_blank">http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/" target="_blank">http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/</a> FYI <img src="http://www.boohaar.com/cotd/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="Very Happy" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>FYI what?</p><p>The most recent subscription figures they have for any SOE game is like 18 months out of date.... and those figures are <i>estimates</i>.</p>

[Wulfborne]

I can't imagine the figures are very accurate anyway... I still have an account, even though I haven't logged in for over a month now. I'm just enjoying other things better at present and trying to wait out some of the 'cleaning up' of the Pally class. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Hawke

[Effie]

The summer is a good time to take a break anyway. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tames]

<p>/crickets</p><p>Still waiting...</p>

[Gwarsh]

<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=422082" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=422082</a>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>Right now the changes are unsatisfactory. We should be getting some kind of block or shield effectiveness buff because mitigation...damage reduction...whatever you call it, isn't what saves you in VP.  Sure it helps but avoidance is king right now and as it stands, people still use Soulfire Gladius when MTing over the Truth of Marr.  I'm also not sure why we never got +defense or +parry but were instead given 2% less melee crit and +CA/spell dmg when we cap out from other items without VP set gear which has +275 total.  Our CAs and Spells just don't do enough damage to make +spell/CA useful.</p><p>If concerns aren't addressed, I will likely be retiring.  I don't see a point to playing a game where the developer does not understand it's own game, it's own game's mechanics, and it's own player base.</p>

[Tames]

<p>/agree with Tharinor</p><p> /bugger</p>

[Tames]

<p> First I would like to say THANK YOU Aeralik for providing some action on this area and inviting feedback as part of the process.</p><p>Our considerable feedback (above) does not seem to have been addressed re: the avoidance issue ie block/parry.</p><p>"Some of you are curious of the epic changes coming in GU47. Below is the list of preliminary changes that you will see with the update. As usual these are subject to change before the update goes live. Feel free to add in any constructive feedback you might have on the changes outlined below. - AeralikThe Truth of Marr ( Paladin )The delay is now 6 seconds.Added a damage proc to the weapon.Should now give both spell and combat art damage bonuses"</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=422082" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=422082</a></p><p>No Avoidance and the +100CA and spell and "combat art damage bonuses" are useless because of the ease of capping out for Crusaders.</p><p>So the answer to "does this help me survive as a tank in 'Epic' situations?" Is no <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Tames]

<p>I asked a Dev whether there would be any additional changes (based on our feedback) to: </p><p><i>The Truth of Marr ( Paladin )The delay is now 6 seconds.Added a damage proc to the weapon.Should now give both spell and combat art damage bonuses</i></p><p>and have recieved an answer, the bottom line is that they are relatively happy with the Epic as it stands and with the above changes. They arent saying there will be no future changes, but none are flagged at this time.</p><p>We as a community can continue to push for the things we think are needed, but thats the state of play atm.</p>

[Madbiker]

anyone worried a 6 second delay while MT in def stance will add up to several misses and serious agro issues? lol hate to steal from monks, but im thinking we are gonna need some kind of "strike through" bonus.

[Tames]

<p>Well I suppose the 6 sec delay is really 3 secs after haste and you fill the gap with spells/CA's. Hopefully the spells/CA's arent resisted or highly reduced. The 6 sec delay gives higher crits but only if you land the hits.</p><p>They are probably also assuming the uber spells/CA's bonuses to the weapon are hugely boosting your DPS, however with the cap, to 'quote' <i>The Simpsons </i>"the spells/CA's bonuses, they do nothing!" due to the cap. </p><p>We have 2 effects affected by the spell/CA cap, the +100 and proc based on Wis, so potentially we have 2 useless effects for those at or near the cap.</p><p>However I take your point, I wouldnt like a line of resists/missed results againsy something nasty, you lose agro, the mob turns and frontal AE's the raid. Yes we have our great agro tools but currently we need DPS agro as well to keep the mob on us unless your raid dps classes arent very good.</p><p>It has been reported that the Holy Avenger dps/heal ae can be resisted in raids, we dont know if the new dps proc can also be highly resisted, if the dps effects that are being relied on to boost DPS rather than fix the itemisation issues with spells/CA's bonuses and the low +6 crit etc dont land much on bosses then the purpose of the Mythical is undermined ie to boost effectiveness agianst top mobs.</p><p>In the case of the Guardian AA and Mythical Epic effects massively boost DPS so missing a few hits etc doesnt have the same result.</p>

[DragaconDark]

Instead of CA addition they should let our ammends be able to be put on anyone in the raid. This would at least allow us to have a MT raid group. 3 healers, power regen and a dirge. We still wouldn't have the dps, and emergancy saves that a guard has so that should equal things out.