Epic weapon?

[Lansalas]

<p>Just curious about the opinion of other paladins about our epic <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>There was a post talking about it but it strangely disappeared from the forum <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>The content was something like : "We don't like it" if I remember well <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> Please try to remain polite, it would be regrettable to see another post disappear like the one before, right? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Gwarsh]

<p>it doesnt have enough int on it, the proc effect is not good enough, we deal low spell damage so we reach the cap easily, we dont need spell damage modifiers, we need crits on spells if anything.  even then, with maximum wis, 1200 i believe? = +420 spells and heals, well past half our max damage for most of our spell attacks and our heals are also close to capped with this... and how often does anyone have 1200 wisdom?  if they wanted heal stuff it should reduce castime or make them uninteruptable... i dunno guys, i personally hate this thing.  makes me want to go play something else... just that theres nothing else out there to play atm.... </p><p>I'll finish it to say i have it, but pretty sure i'll be using soulfire for awhile to come now</p><p>as for "epic" quests.. claymore was more epic than this questline... peacock was more epic than this, seriously i expected this quest to take months and months and involve many many more subquests and such, as it is its just a really annoying quest with a slap in the face for your reward</p>

[equinoxio]

<p>aITEM 438581840 1998801301:The Truth of Marr/a+32 str | +26 sta | +20 agi | +24 wis | +20 int+175 health | +160 power+5 slashing+3 Melee Crit ChanceMarr's FavorSwordMain Hand SlashingDamage 77-306 (95.8 Rating)Delay 4.0 SecondsWeight 2.5When Equipped:When target casts a spell this spell has a 9% chance to cast Marr's Favor on caster.Lasts for 15.0 seconds.Increases the healing and damage of spells by up to 35% of your total wisdom.This spell can not be modified except by direct means.</p><p> WOW when someone doesnt like something is get magically disapeared.</p><p> This is our epic, for those that havent seen it. I will refrain from repeating what I said before, since aparently I cant say negative things about this.</p><p> Our epic sucks for paladins, we are not healers, WE ARE TANKS!!! I hope some day someone will listen to our comunity. This sword has no sence at all, if I want to tank better I use the Soulfire, if I want to dps, I use a 2hnd sword, if by any chance i want to dps with a shield on, the Nathasar sword is better than this sword.... Seriously I dont know who thought this would please the paladin comunity, but this has made a lot of paladins upset and dissapointed, personally I decided to no complete this quest, is not worth all the trouble to make it</p>

[Echgar]

<cite>equinoxio wrote:</cite><blockquote>WOW when someone doesnt like something is get magically disapeared.<p> This is our epic, for those that havent seen it. I will refrain from repeating what I said before, since aparently I cant say negative things about this.</p></blockquote>That is not entirely true. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />The developers are interested in your feedback, good *and* bad.  You just have to be constructive and courteous in how you communicate that feedback (<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a>)Why did the other thread disappear?  Well, when the original post of a thread is inappropriate (<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a>) the way the forum software works I had to remove the entire thread.  If it were one or more posts after the original post I would have had additional options.There is an awful lot of emotion about these epics on nearly all the class forums as well as some of the more general forums.  Certainly give your feedback since as I mentioned, the developers are quite interested, but my best advice is to just make sure you keep a level head.  Last week we saw Game Update #42.  There is bound to be a #43, 44, etc. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[RaistNA]

I really wanna meet the person incharge of designing paladin gear...no really i do.

[equinoxio]

<p>Ok Echgar, there is animosity right now with epics, a lot of people are upset with how it turned out, not only paladins, but dont we get at least a word saying why the thread got deleted? Just saying if we have the obligation to follow the forums rules, dont we get at least the curtesy to say when a thread is deleted.... just saying...</p><p> The problem with the paladin epics is the fact that aparently someone in the itemization department thinks that the proc we get for our epic actually makes paladin happy, our spell cap for +spell items is low, since we not casters, our +heal is a bit higher but not by much, since we not healers, but we still get treated like one, seriosly, can a developer see how upset this has the paladin comunity and change the proc to something more usefull for a paladin, we are tanks even tho we can heal and cast spells, we are tanks, always been and always will be, we have tank as much as the guardians, and are the number 1 offtanks in raids, my guild use paladins for MT and OT, and I know for a fact that other guild also do the same</p>

[Verdyn]

Since the other thread got removed, I'll post again...The proc on the weapon is absolutely awful.  Regardless of what the itemization devs think we should be, we are a tank class and we should have a weapon with a tanking proc.  If we want to tank, Soulfire is so much better than this piece, it's not even funny.  If we want to DPS, we have better options as well.  In short, you've made an epic weapon that barely anyone in the class is going to use.  No one wants their epic to give + healing, as healing is a neat side ability but by no means is something to be included in an epic.  For an item that's supposed to be class defining and the be-all-end-all weapon for Paladins, the fact that it's going to be sitting in the bag doing nothing should tell you how poorly designed it is.I'd also like to comment about the artwork.  The whole point behind making epics look awesome is so that when you have them equipped, people say WOW.  They're supposed to look like they're special items.  IMO, this is the case with the Templar, Necromancer and Warlock epics for example, as the moving parts and bold look give them a unique feel.  The paladin epic, on the other hand, is bland.  No particle effects, no bold design, no exciting hilt or blade, just a plain old sword.  I'm sure it gets some kind of particle effect at the Mythical stage, but that's not enough of a change IMO.  If I didn't know what it looked like ahead of time, I can think of multiple weapons I'd guess were our epic before I'd guess the Truth of Marr.  That's very disappointing.Fix the proc.  Fix the art.  Fix the weapon.  Please.  Most of us want to use our epics regularly... as is, some of us may not even be using them sparingly. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Sarevok]

<p>I have played my Pally since EQ2 inception. I like to read these boards and answer questions as they come up, but haven't really spoke up much about personal opinions about the game. This post deserves a comment or two.</p><p> Thanks, Echgar, for letting us know someone is paying attention, beacuse the new Epic Weapon really doesn't help us out much. We are tanks who have battled against inferior hate gain, mitigation and a general conception in game of a less desireable class to have in groups.</p><p>I look forward to see how the devs respond.</p><p>Thanks,</p><p>~Serevok</p>

[Wildmage]

you know whats funny to me is that paladins are good tanks in FFXI for example because of how in addtion to taunts and damage healing also generates hate, Im curious if anyone knows how much healing = so much hate is it a 1-1 ratio like EQ1 had at one point or more like 2-1 ration or worse.

[lavasoul]

<p>I already posted my feeling about our epic on eq2flames and not very happy and expressed abit of anger. Paladins are tanks and even though we can heal and are part mage we don't like to have an effect on epic that makes us look more like healers/mage where we stand to cast spell to get a proc to better our healing or spell damage. There are currently alot of other item ingame that help us up our +heal/spell and reaching the cap for it isn't hard and the proc on this make us even more useless in playing a tank role.</p><p>In my guild I play either MT/OT which ever the role my guild needs me and I do my best at it. Avatar are already back in Norrath with this expansion and Paladin are a high canidate in offtanking adds in raid encounter. The current proc that is on our epic requires us to cast spell whether if its heal/spell but when you offtank with adds spawning every 30-40 sec you be running around alot to grab adds and not standing still to cast spell to get a proc off a weapon so you get a buff to try and help you get more dps. In every raid with encounter that spawns adds offtanks are require to run around to grab them not stand still and wait for adds to come to you its just as simple as that. Give us a proc that helps us in our tank survivability which we are having abit of problem in VP where DA becomes a useless AA skill which is only good for instance run.</p><p>With the current weapons available ingame Soulfire is still used for tanking by alot of tanks and why is this? Yes the +5 block on it make it a good weapon to use for tanking and that weapon is from last expansion. </p>

[lavasoul]

About the graphic of the epic itself I can see work has been put into it but the problem I see is when it is sheathe you can see that its a sword but when you unsheathe it the blade unfold or expands giving it a much more spear like head look. I see other epic has graphic that has moving parts. Why not make it so that when you unsheathe the epic the blade gives an animation of it being like sheathe then unsheathe in that kinda loop. This would give the epic a look thats its alive and when people look at it they can tell its a sword rather than the head of a spear.

[Kahling]

<p>Please register me as being unhappy with the weapon as well, i wont be using it, If i want to tank ill use my soulfire, if I want dps Ill use a 2 hander.  </p><p>Personally there needs to be two changes to this weap, firstly Paladins are the shield block masters, soulfire is a lvl 70 (or lucanic a 67) weapon and has +5 shield block.  Give the pally epic +5 to +10 (hehe +7 or <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> shield block on it in place of the melle crit.  Secondly change the proc to proc on all things we cast, I counted and with my aa line I have 12 combat arts and only 6 spells, reduce the proc chance to 7% instead of 9% if you must, also change the proc to increase all the things we cast so not just spells and heals but spells and combat arts, again reduce the amount from 35% of wis to lower if you must to achieve this.</p><p> I want a tank weap, if the above changes or somthing similar was implemented then I would have an awsome wow factor (epic!) weapon that means when Im in def stance i can do more damge IE for off tanking.</p><p>Please devs give us somthing that shows us off as tanks, we have enough trouble at times convincing others, Paladins can and have been MT against every raid mob you have thrown out in ROK (well on my server they have) so stop shoving the (well you have heals) thing on us, sure there nice to have but what you have basically given us is maybe a soloing weap, nothing usefull worth carrying the fabled monica and epic status.</p><p> BTW Paladins if your unhappy with this please post in here in a kind and curteous manner, if not it will be against the forum rules and they will close the thread again, the important thing is we get as many people posting that there unhappy so that somthing is done,  rants wont change anything.</p><p>Also if you support my changes or have change ideas of your own then please say, my ideas above are not overpowering the weap at all when you compare it with what is already available (eg I get a permanent +155 to combat art damage (thats 12 ca's) from wearing 3x ravaged onslaught which is easily available from any group instance and is legendary in quality)</p><p>Regards</p><p>Kahling</p>

[Tames]

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Please register me as being unhappy with the weapon as well, i wont be using it, If i want to tank ill use my soulfire, if I want dps Ill use a 2 hander.  </p><p>Personally there needs to be two changes to this weap, firstly <b>Paladins are the shield block masters</b>, soulfire is a lvl 70 (or lucanic a 67) weapon and has +5 shield block.  Give the pally epic +5 to +10 (hehe +7 or <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> shield block on it in place of the melle crit.  Secondly change the proc to proc on all things we cast, I counted and with my aa line I have 12 combat arts and only 6 spells, reduce the proc chance to 7% instead of 9% if you must, also change the proc to increase all the things we cast so not just spells and heals but spells and combat arts, again reduce the amount from 35% of wis to lower if you must to achieve this.</p><p>Regards</p><p>Kahling</p></blockquote><p>/agree Kahling (my bold enhancements) he has summed it up very well, the existing procs when buffed and with gear plusses to damage/heal  spells are pretty useless. <b>This is supposed to be a class defining weapon</b>, we are a "sword and board" class, work with this the way SoD did and boost block. </p><p>Unfortunately the trend with upgrades to Mythical is that you get more of the same so we are likely to get even more of what we dont want. The people who do class design should talk to those who do itemisation, if they are, it doesnt appear to be working.</p><p>By all means put in an effect that speeds casting of heals to reduce interrupts (slow casting of interruptable heals in a class desined to tank and be hit is a major design flaw) but the focus should be on our ability to stand there and be hit. We have Block AA, build on that as a bonus for using a sheild.</p>

[Verdyn]

<cite>Abel@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>About the graphic of the epic itself I can see work has been put into it but the problem I see is when it is sheathe you can see that its a sword but when you unsheathe it the blade unfold or expands giving it a much more spear like head look. I see other epic has graphic that has moving parts. Why not make it so that when you unsheathe the epic the blade gives an animation of it being like sheathe then unsheathe in that kinda loop. This would give the epic a look thats its alive and when people look at it they can tell its a sword rather than the head of a spear.</blockquote>I think the reason it looks so much like a spear is the hilt.  The grip is way too long for a sword and the guard is too tiny. If the grip were shortened, the guard were made much more illustrious (maybe even given a moving effect like other epics) and the features on the blade were highlighted in a more pronounced way and given a glow, I'd love it.  Most of the design is actually really classy but the overall sword is bland and doesn't look like an epic weapon.I'm not sure if Epic look is something that SOE is willing to tweak but seeing as how these were big projects and are supposed to be key weapons for each class, I hope they consider upgrading our look - there's a lot of potential there if fixed properly.

[motogp]

I think i got banned for a day or something? But anyway,    Step 1...Make it better than SOD.    Step 2. Give it +5 Block         Step 3. Give it a 10% chance "when Pally is damaged" to proc +5 more block for 20 seconds.   Crits and other stuff like that, i dont really care about.  /Punches his pally in the face

[Boethius_Permafrost]

It doesn't seem all that bad for an offensive one hander, and I often find myself in that gear setup, when I can't go full damage gear because I might have to take hits, but I'm not actually planning on it full time.  I don't see why this isn't at least situationally usable.  Just pretend it doesn't have an effect.  I haven't met anyone likes thier "epic effect," anyway.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't want my epic to be situational gear, either.  But I'm just saying I wouldn't just destroy it when I finish the quest.Someone would really have to parse the effect on damage output of the effect, but it doesn't look too hot.  Still, I remember how much my eq1 class hated their epic, until they started using it and then couldn't bear to live without it.  But I don't see that happening with this effect ... still, someone should parse it.

[lavasoul]

<p>As you can see many paladin or I should say all the paladins want tank survivability and we all seem to agree that blocking on our epic is the way to go. You can start off the fable version with +2 or +3 block and on the mythical make it +5 block. </p><p>Another thing I want to add in is our DA skill that we get from our AA line which is completely useless with mostly VP where everything just goes thru it. Probably add something to our epic that makes DA block all attack instead of attack that does 50% or less of our total hp.</p><p>As for proc we certainly don't want a proc that will add plus to healing/spell cause we are tanks. Too many other item ingame that already exist for us to do that so we don't need more of it to make it useless when we can hit the cap easily. You can probably make a proc that increase effectiveness of our shield that has 9-12% chance to proc off of any of our attack combat art/spell. Please don't limit our proc to go off of just combat only or spells only cause we have both combat art/spell on our hotbar. </p><p>I explain one of the flaw of the current effect on our epic. We all know the effect and it has a 9% chance to proc off any spell cast which last for 15 sec. The paladin class itself at the base with no AA line to get more spell has like 4 things that is consider an offensive spell ranging from 20sec to 1 minute recast. While a paladin is tanking a raid mob he rarely use heals because cast timer on our heal/ward are long and not very effective during tanking raid mob. So in order for us to get this effect to proc we spam thru 4 of our offensive spells (mind you we are tanking so we need offensive spell to hold agro and healing doesn't generate enough agro, amends alone won't keep a mob on you) and by the time the proc does go off all of our spells are down so we won't be getting anyting from it cause by the time our spells pop back up the buff is gone. So please when you are designing  a proc effect for a paladin make it proc off both combat/spell or make it proc when we get damage.</p>

[Tames]

<cite>Abel@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As you can see many paladin or I should say all the paladins want tank survivability and we all seem to agree that blocking on our epic is the way to go. You can start off the fable version with +2 or +3 block and on the mythical make it +5 block. </p><p>Another thing I want to add in is our DA skill that we get from our AA line which is completely useless with mostly VP where everything just goes thru it. Probably add something to our epic that makes DA block all attack instead of attack that does 50% or less of our total hp.</p><p><b>As for proc we certainly don't want a proc that will add plus to healing/spell cause we are tanks. Too many other item ingame that already exist for us to do that so we don't need more of it to make it useless when we can hit the cap easily. You can probably make a proc that increase effectiveness of our shield that has 9-12% chance to proc off of any of our attack combat art/spell. Please don't limit our proc to go off of just combat only or spells only cause we have both combat art/spell on our hotbar. </b></p><p><b>I explain one of the flaw of the current effect on our epic. We all know the effect and it has a 9% chance to proc off any spell cast which last for 15 sec. The paladin class itself at the base with no AA line to get more spell has like 4 things that is consider an offensive spell ranging from 20sec to 1 minute recast. While a paladin is tanking a raid mob he rarely use heals because cast timer on our heal/ward are long and not very effective during tanking raid mob. So in order for us to get this effect to proc we spam thru 4 of our offensive spells (mind you we are tanking so we need offensive spell to hold agro and healing doesn't generate enough agro, amends alone won't keep a mob on you) and by the time the proc does go off all of our spells are down so we won't be getting anyting from it cause by the time our spells pop back up the buff is gone. So please when you are designing  a proc effect for a paladin make it proc off both combat/spell or make it proc when we get damage.</b></p></blockquote><p>The <b>bold </b>sections make excellent points, basically we have procs that arent suited to our class and do no good in any case. It does better DPS than SoD and has better stats so is situationally useful if you dont want to use your 2H when going for DPS, but thats it. For many Paladins for whom this will be the Epic they will be using (not in raiding Guilds so no Mythical for them) I am sure this will be a big dissapointment.</p><p>Its a pity they didnt go with "flaming sword" graphics for the famous sword of Marr!</p>

[txleathertx]

<p>Pretty much what I want to say I said in EQ2flames.com....with a few changes for language and such....I've very disappointed in SoE on this "epic piece of trash"</p><p>I don't chime in too often since I'm not a high end raid guildee and really don't know much about the upper tier raid zones....but...I am as it sits now 1 of the 2 tanks my guild leans on for us to [Removed for Content] our way through Protector's Realm...I'm proud of the steps my guild has made with me at point man for them. I am a proud pally....I would never choose anything over a Pally to try and tank with. I am not a healer...I am certainly not utility by any means....and yes...my dps is kind of gimptastic....so be it. I am a good tank or so I've been told. This epic weapon is an epic piece of trash. It is a slap in the face to everything I have worked for as a Pally. I lived through the stigma of not being a true tank and shining as an off tank. When the chips are down, my guild would tell you to let TxL tank it. This weapon and it's crap for a proc is just sony's way of teabagging what seems to be a soon dying breed. I'm happy for my brother Pallies that have cleared us other Pallies a path to follow. I chose to follow the harder path of being a main tank...everything I take in loot is geared toward a tank. I would by no means consider this weapon even CLOSE to being a tank weapon. The stats are decent, but I would rather finish up my SoD quest and at least get the legendary weapon with the +5 to shield block and carry it...I don't see any way that this epic weapon would help my avoidance any. I don't see how this would make me a better tank....in fact I'm sure it would [Removed for Content] me more than I'm already gimped. If we are lucky enough that a developer is reading this, then I mean no disrepect when I say "what the heck were you thinking????" It is time that a dev follow a true Pally tank around and let him see for himself where our weaknesses lie. Aggro control??? Nope....not a prob...never has been a prob. Dealing damage??? As far as I've seen a guardian and a Pally in equal gear and both using a tower shield are on par. Taking damage?? To me this is where the Pally's one weakness shows up. We've never had the best tools for taking a beating when it got heavy. We don't get tower of stone....we get a ward (oh joy...another interuption...doh...another interupt...screw it)...we have heals (shoot interupted again....screw it...Holy touch). I would have been happy with some sort of proc that we could activate that would absorb or maybe even absorb say 50% of incoming damage. or a 9% proc chance to have the next to hits hit less or not at all. Devs you have no idea what a Pally is anymore. I might be alittle off from what the high enders think....but at least I'm in the ballpark of what a Pally is and isn't....you aren't even in the same state as the ballpark. Thank you very much for screwing us over yet again.</p>

[Satyrfawn]

<p>This Epic weapon is the suck for Paladins, and I am not going to invest another hour of my time to get it.  I'm a tank...and this sword is useless for tanking.  Continue using that (outdated) Soulfire, my brethren.  Sony has apperantly reverted to the opinion that our mediocre healing abilities are what defines us as a class...  anyone get invited to a raid for their uber healing prowess lately?</p>

[Kahling]

<p>I have given this a little more thought.  This could be an awsome weapon, the idea behind the more damage while in defensive stance due to higher WIS really is a good one.  It would be awsome to have a weapon that does more damage when it procs when your in def stance while OTing or MTing.</p><p>I have given the block chance idea more thought and as I say Paladins are the master shield blockers then I relly think it needs somthing on it that goes allong with this, I did say in my origional post put + block on it, what about swapping the +3% melle crit to +3% shield block instead?  Overpowered? No I dont think so, you already have a legendary item with that on and this item is fabled, 3% would not be huge but it would give the feel of it being very special as its suppose to be.</p><p> Do that and change the proc to proc off ca's and spells and effect ca damage as well and its a good weap and fits our class more.  I dont care if you lower the % chance of the proc to do this and lower the % effect but at least your not relying on us casting one of 6 spells to get any benefit as thats just a 1/3rd of what I cast.</p><p> Regards</p><p>Kahling.</p><p> PS Regarding the look of it my wife says it looks like a carboard cutout christmas tree and I have to agree, personally i would of preffered a moving part on it to make it stand out more, maybe segment it or somthing like the very well designed look of the segmented serrator.</p>

[Tames]

<p><i><b>"So in order for us to get this effect to proc we spam thru 4 of our offensive spells .....and by the time the proc does go off all of our spells are down so we won't be getting anyting from it cause by the time our spells pop back up the buff is gone. So please when you are designing  a proc effect for a paladin make it proc off both combat/spell or make it proc when we get damage." - Abel</b></i></p><p>I think this sums it up Kathless. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> The other issue is that the extra damage/heal wont be much because of Wis or 50% caps.</p><p>To be constructive I know they designed these things in secret, but next time get a Dev that plays a pally involved and gear him up with the item and parse it to see if it makes a difference. Also get the item makers and the Class designers in the same room at the same time on it.</p>

[Nazani]

Well, I see a big problem with the topic "paladin can heal itself". Versus big monsters, that hit you each 0,000 secs,we really have only one heal, the single target one, the rest: ward, sacrament, group heal, can't be casted without interrupts. But people (Devs?), think that we resolve our difference in Mit-Avoid, Uber tank skills-AAs and CAs of guardians with our heals. If our epic at least will allow us to cast quickly, with less power, or with 0% interrupt rate, maybe epic will give us the same that guardian raid epic gives to them.

[motogp]

I hope we understand, The Epic weapon you see in game will not be changed in anyay. All the super cool pally help we have been offering might help in making a very small change to the mythical. But the epic you see in game "will" not be changed. i will bet my account on it. Now i ask, what will we do now knowing the weapon will never be what we want it too be?  I personally want to quit on the class. "im not going to kid my self in thinking the weapon will actually get changed". Any chance we can get  some information on this? I need to PL my guardian if that weapon stays as is.   kk thks  kk have a nice day kk oxox  kk  thks XD kk.     " lots of KK and xoxo thks kk"  keeps me from getting banned.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

The paladin class is solid, but appears to be having some issues with itemization (hardly unique in that regard.)I started to think, if you could wear any gear, regardless of class restrictions, how much would that change your paladin setup?  Of course, you can still only use the types of armor and weapons you are able to use (no mages in plate, please), and effects specific to another class would give you no benefit.At first, you might think warrior armor doesn't have the INT we need, but wait, neither does ours.  Heh.  Sorry, I couldn't resist making that jab.  But, I'd certainly use the guardian epic I saw linked, regardless of the fact that its effects would not work for me.  Would the class be fixed if instead of itemizing the class, we were able to use armor designed for other classes?

[Kahling]

<p>Erm, the weap has to be changed period, just keep posting in here constructively and lets get as many Paladins as possible to post, they have to listen surely?  Can we have a dev please post in here that it will be looked at.  Im working on the quest now in the hope that I will have the feeling of having somthing special like the rest of the classes seem to feel.</p><p>I aint giving up hope yet, still using my soulfire for now.</p>

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Turns out I was looking at the guardian raid epic link vs. a paladin group epic we finish last night.  Now that I've seen the comparable guardian weapon, I am still quite jealous of their effect, which seems much better designed for their class as well as much more powerful in general.

[Obfw Striker]

<p>I am officially displeased with this weapon - it fits a templar more than a Paladin. We need class defining weapon that we can use while tanking (one handers are used with a shield, hint hint - that means while tanking) It is virtually impossible to heal much while main tanking - we need a weapon that gives us more survivability as a tank - that is what we are supposed to be - that came directly from SOE original blueprint of the Paladin - a main tank, not necessarily better than Guardians - but at least as capable.</p><p> Just take a look at the Guardian Mythical - it is geared around tanking - we need something similar to that.</p>

[Tames]

<p>BTW for those that dont know there was another thread on this topic put up here and then removed by the mods, so save yourself the effort it looks like only one thread is being allowed on Pally Epic feedback.</p><p>The other thread featured logs from online reactions after the first epic was linked to the Pally community (with expletives removed).</p><p>Can anyone advise me on whether there is a central designer/dev for Crusaders/Paladins to whom we can direct suggestions, if there isnt one it appears that there should be. Mistakes like the current fabled usually only occur from inexperience or poor communication within teams, but there could be a simple answer such as sudden illness and the person standing in only knowing about Furies etc.</p>

[StrollingWolf]

<p>Please post your feedback, but keep it within the forum rules, and not with a bunch of jumping up and down screaming. The developers value the feedback provided from the community, so please post it. Whether or not things will change is up to them, but they always value the feedback they receive from the community, provided it's not just a bunch of ranting.</p><p>The moderators are not here to "silence" people, just keep things from getting out of hand.With that said, please keep your feedback on this weapon here.Thanks.</p>

[Tames]

<p>Put simply there is almost unanimous feedback that there has been a major error in designing this item, so we should ask ourselves:</p><ol><li>will it be fixed and how (consensus is that continuing the success of SoD by reinforcing the sword and sheild tank paradigm eg +block is the way to go)</li><li>is it an indicator of difficulty in understanding the role of Paladins by Devs ie Ancient Dreadscale Greaves issue ?</li><li>how did the error occur in the first place?</li><li>how can SOE avoid it happening again?</li></ol><p>So its not simply what has happened, but is it an indicater of wider issues?</p><p>Is there someone to whom we can direct feedback, who handles Paladin design and class balance?</p><p>Since we dont have access to information on all the background we can only judge by what we see happening. Its not likely that we will be told about any changes behind the scenes, so we can only wait and see what happens as a result of all the feedback on this and other forums.</p><p>In the past there have been major issues with mage items and they were changed, we can only hope that Paladins enjoy the same priority.</p>

[Meirril]

<p>Considering how the bonus damage and healing are stated I'm not sure if it modifies the base or is a bonus. If it is just a bonus...then its not overly useful. If it is a modifier to the base, then the effect is quite good except that it won't proc enough for us to actually get any benifit out of it. </p><p>The primary comment against this item is that it helps us do more damage with spell casting and healing. For every heal and spell I throw I'll do about 6 CAs in between. This is when I'm soloing. When I'm in a group I generally lay off the heals unless the fight turns desperate. The few spells paladins get have long refresh timers. This is hardly a bonus. Even if the proc effect was a permanent ability it wouldn't make this epic compair with other fighter epics. </p><p>How about replacing this proc with a 9% dispersion effect? Right now I think my pants are better than this epic. (Dispersion is a proc that casts a 1 hit rune that gives your group power.)</p>

[Tames]

<p>There should at least be a major effect that helps us survive as a group or raid tank, a basic block or parry plus and for procs a Stoneskin or similiar proc would be good for a start. The Mythical can increase the basic block or parry plus and add spell/CA haste/reduce recast and a boost to LoH perhaps? A Reflection proc is another option, why not go with a 9% chance on casting a CA or spell of a 15 sec Reflection proc?</p><p>I favour +block over parry because it reinforces the Sheild aspect of the class but theres no reason you cant have both with a parry proc perhaps?</p><p>Whatever is chosen should at least be tested first so we dont get effects that are almost useless due to our spell/CA makeup and cast times.</p><p>SoD was done extremely well for Paladins, I have no idea why the trend got reversed this time.</p>

[Nazani]

At the bottom of the idea, to give extra Dmg and Heal bonus based on our wisdom, since we have 5 main characteristics, and all the times we cannot find equipment with the 5 stats, it's original and could be good. Buuuut, to choose between 1h and add 150 bonus if item procs while in offensive mode or dps role is to lost much more dmg compared to a 2h with dmg procs. While in def mode... the only Big problem are the SoD and the pally class characteristic "Hero line AA", since if paladin wants to approach or surppas guardians in avoidance terms, it's the ONLY way: SoD+Green Dragon Shield+Hero Line. That is, at least for me, the reasons because I will never use this fabled. 2h better than epic for damage, and Sod+board for tanking.

[txleathertx]

<cite>StrollingWolf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Please post your feedback, but keep it within the forum rules, and not with a bunch of jumping up and down screaming. The developers value the feedback provided from the community, so please post it. Whether or not things will change is up to them, but they always value the feedback they receive from the community, provided it's not just a bunch of ranting.</p><p>The moderators are not here to "silence" people, just keep things from getting out of hand.With that said, please keep your feedback on this weapon here.Thanks.</p></blockquote><p>With all due respects....</p><p> I have read some of the posts that have been removed. This form letter of a responce to why posts are removed are just as counterprodutive as our epic weapon is. Why are jumping up and down?? Pure and simple....we never hear anything from the devs and when we do what do we get??? We get insulted (Dreadscale Greaves post)....may not have meant to be an insult, but as a Pally that my guild leans on to take our first steps in T8 raiding; it was taken as a MAJOR insult. Quite frankly I am sick and tired of hearing that the Devs are listening to us, then turn out a piece of crap weapon they did for our epic. It is brutally obvious what the Devs think of us with their silence. We jump up and down because we feel like we're OVERLY ignored. There's a saying about the squeaky wheel getting the grease, but it appears that SoE is going to continue to give it to us without the benefit of proper lubrication. Our feedback on this weapon is obviously hostile and will continue to get even more hostile the less we hear from Devs. We've asked openly for a name or feedback from the Dev that is responsible for the Paladins. I'm still looking not only for a response to who it is (which I don't expect) or a direct response from this person (which I highly doubt). Until that day happens what is left for us to do? Continue to post "feedback" that falls on deaf ears. </p>

[StrollingWolf]

<p>If you wish to post contrary to the forum rules then you can expect:</p><p>1. Post removal2. Possible suspension/banishment from the forums.</p><p>You agree to post according to the forum rules when you sign up for posting here. I would expect you all to follow the forum rules of conduct.</p><p>This thread is not about forum moderation, so if you would like to continue discussing the Paladin epic weapon then feel free to do so.</p>

[txleathertx]

<cite>StrollingWolf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you wish to post contrary to the forum rules then you can expect:</p><p>1. Post removal2. Possible suspension/banishment from the forums.</p><p>You agree to post according to the forum rules when you sign up for posting here. I would expect you all to follow the forum rules of conduct.</p><p>This thread is not about forum moderation, so if you would like to continue discussing the Paladin epic weapon then feel free to do so.</p></blockquote>And My post is also about that as well....but it was also mentioned that we'd like to hear from the Devs and the Devs are only getting a tip of the iceburg about unhappy we are about our epic weapon. One post in particular was a post from what was said in the Pally WW channel when we seen our epic weapon. That was a from the gut reactions to seeing our weapon for the first time. I honestly thought that was within the rules of the forum, but the Devs won't see that now. The point of my post was to show that we aren't being fully represented in the forums when posts that show actual reactions to something that has happened in the game. The Devs need to get the full story about this. We'd like to hear something...anything from the Devs about what they are going to do about this. There is a SEVERE unbalance in the plate tanks and our epic weapon reflects that.

[Anurra]

I am not a raid tank, probably never be. So I just do groups and tank for that (fantastic, I might add).I currently wield a pristine imbued incarnadine long sword that I got forged for a total of 18 gold.This weapon has +45 STR (++DPS for my MANY combat arts), +35 STA (slightly less HP bonus, see below) and +35 AGI (++avoidence so I don't get hit and..live longer). It has the basic damage proc (gleaming strike) and I put a divine proc + heal on it. The first time I saw the group epic, I was like wow my current weapon is a better tank weapon. The +int and +wis, to me, is not very useful. Most of my dps comes from my CA's and I rarely cast my spells because they have long casting times (I use them during soloing though between stuns and as openers).The melee crit on the epic is alright, I guess - but I already have 30% so 33% isn't going to matter much. The extra HP/power is alright, I guess, but:MC sword: 35 STA = 35 *5 =  175 HP + 90 from the weapon = +265 total HP.Epic: 26 STA = 26 * 5 = 130 HP + 175 HP from weapon = +305 total HP. A 40 HP difference.I would lose about 0.5% avoidance due to the agility loss from wielding this weapon.The only thing that it has going FOR ME is the higher damage and weapon delay.What would I want? +avoidance! Be it more agility or +% shield block instead of melee crit.The proc is useless!! I never heal myself during a group. The only time I heal myself (during groups) is when it has gone down hill and we really need that extra boost....but - the chance to start this proc is so low, and the odds of me casting a spell right BEFORE I have to heal myself is very low. I mentioned that I rarely use my longer casting spells as I am tanking. I need to react fast and quick to generate my DPS for aggro.What would I like to see for a proc?+shield block! Have it proc at some reasonable % whenever we take damage or deal damage. Then have it raise our shield block % by some nice %. Or have it raise our parry. Here are some examples:Has a 10% chance to proc Marr's Shield when caster takes damage. Lasts for 15 seconds.Increases shield block % by 24% (IE: Works like our shield block AA).orHas a 10% chance to proc Marr's Shield when caster takes damage. Lasts for 15 seconds.Increases parry by 40 (IE: 4 points of parry per 1% avoidance. 40/4 = +10% avoidance).<b><span style="font-size: medium;">SUMMARY</span></b>-Remove melee crit, replace with +% shield block.<span style="font-size: small;"><b>-MAKE THE PROC BETTER AND USEFUL FOR TANKING IN GROUPS/RAIDS!!!!!!!</b><span style="font-size: x-small;">Thank youPS: This weapon should be viable in ALL cases: solo/group/raid. Currently, it is not.</span></span>

[Boethius_Permafrost]

If you really want to design a proc effect to help us cast spells (heal or damage) while fighting, then it'll need  reduced cast and recovery time, a long swing delay, and a very large +Focus bonus.  I'm not saying it is a great idea and will make anyone happy, but if that's your design goal of the group epic effect, then at least achieve the goal.  We aren't prevented from using our spells due to a lack of +spell/+heal modifiers.

[Kahling]

<p>Ive been using this weap a bit today and found it seems to proc a hell of allot, really odd Im sure it procced against ca's being cast as well.  The damage modifier does only effect spells I can confirm that.  It ups my adept 3 ward to 1765 which is pretty nice.  </p><p>Good points:</p><p>Seems to proc alot!, like almost up all the time in fights, when it says it procs off spells it includes taunts heals wards and seems to proc off of any other procs that go off eg, reet helm procs is classed as a spell cast which can fire off the sword proc.</p><p>My ward while its proccing is 1765 at adept 3 which isnt to be sniffed at, (I use my ward quite allot to help out in raids as its the lowest power heal vs ammount we have)</p><p>Spells do increase in damage and there is a big chance the weapon is proccing when u cast them in your cast cycle as you normall procc the sword on the first taunts.</p><p>Its a high damage weap compared with other groupable stuff, nice damage spread and nice delay.</p><p>Bad points:</p><p>Ive grown to like the proc so Im not going to say this anymore, its special and individual to the weapon, the only thing I would say is I would preffere the damage modifier to effect ca's as well (I have a belt that procs +300 damage to ca's) so this isnt out of the question.</p><p>No shield block increase,  I think that alot of people will be upgrading from the lucanic (lvl 67) or the souldfire (lvl 70) gladius, this item has +5 shield block, this is +5% unmitigated shield block chance, this is a huge huge loss.  I feel every plate tank epic weap should have +5 shield block on it like the SOD weapons had.</p><p>Oddities:</p><p>The proc goes off on the most unlikely spells cast, it can go off when you cast your horse, it can go off when you cast a tinkered parachute.</p><p>Reccomendations.</p><p>1.  Every single plate tank epic weap should have without question +5 shield block to be inline with the SOD weapon, if this is not implemented your asking people to choose between a lvl 67 or 70 weapon and a meant to be once in a game groundbreaking class defining weapon, and the epic is going to loose in allot of cases cos no one is daft enough to loose 5% unmitigated avoidance.</p><p>2. Change the proc to effect ca's, Lower the % of wis vs damage (not heals and wards I dont want that % changing) if you have to but personally it needs to effect all our abilities.</p><p>Regards</p><p>Kahling.</p><p>PS.  I would use this weap if number 1 above was implemented and I would be happy with it.  Currently Im using it for a laugh to see what it does, I will be switching back to my soulfire when I have got bored of this stage as it has +5% shield block on it and what tank in their right mind would like to go up a little in dps and loose such an ammount of tanking ability.</p><p>PPS Ive posted somthing about the block in the items and equipment section so that all the plate tanks can voice their opinion on this, I imagine there are other classes other than us that feel the loss of 5% shield block.</p>

[lavasoul]

After looking at all the effect on the mythical version epic and recalling SOE mention that mythical epic is needed for killing Avatar and higher end raid content because of the effect thats on it. Not sure if I'm missing anything but I don't see any of the effect thats on our epic that will contribute to taking down higher end raid content like contested or trakanon. Trying to look at everything in a positive way so when I do get my mythical version of epic I will wield it with a smile. It has a 120 dmg rating which is a big plus so yea I'm gonna wield it over one of my other 1hander from VP for dps. The 10% damage reduction is good can't argue on that. Here are the effect thats on the weapon that I'm trying to find a good use for. Marr's Favor Holy Avenger 10% repent or scale of justice Like to see what some of you think.

[Crackja]

For those who havn't seen the mythical version yet : aITEM 1771025486 1998801301:The Truth of Marr/aOk so our fabled version is awfull... everyone keep saying wait for the mythical version'cause it's going to be so better and all ...And now this morning i see this link and can't imagine hows devs could create such a piece of ...The stats are awfull, bonus are subpar compared to the other epics.... and the weapon effects are still that bad ( the damage reduction is nice .... but why do the other classes all have 3 nice effects and we only got one ..... ).Something has to be done... right now i'don't care if i have my mythical or not...wich is kind of pathetic as it was suposed to be the best weapon available for RoK and futur expansion...

[Geekyone]

<p>Ok, firstly all of you hot heads out there...if it says Fabled that is NOT our epic weapon...so try not to get to worked up about the stats on that weapon.  Our epic weapons, just like everyone elses will be rated <b>Mythical</b>.</p><p>Secondly, yeah, our weapon is a slap in a Tank Paladins face.  I don't care about the stats...when I'm in raid gear, I'm at the soft cap anyway, what I care about is that this weapon doesnt' provide any type of mitigation to us when we tank.  No I don't what Mitigation on the weapon, I want, Defense, or Parry, or +5 to Reposte...as a tank, I don't want to use this because when it comes to enhanceing my abilty to avoid taking damage, this is a seemingly useless weapon.</p>

[Tames]

<p>It should be remembered that for 99% of Paladins the Fabled will be their Epic for some time as their Guild isnt raiding VP and isnt likely to for this expansion.</p><p>So unless high end Guilds sudenly require 'pick up' Paladins to round off their raids the concerns over the Fabled are valid for the vast majority.</p><p>The only reason for the current itemisation on both Epic versions is that they consider us a Sword and symbol class, not sword and board! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>SOE did a good job with SoD Fabled why on earth do this? All I can say is "Dreadscale Greaves". <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Meirril]

<p>I think all of the previous commentary on the fabled epic is valid. </p><p>If anyone thinks the <b>mythical epic</b> is underpowered in any way shape or form I respectfully state: It has <b>18% built in uncontested mittigation</b> with 8% of your enemies damage going straight to your agro in the form of healing 10% of 90% of the damage your taking. This is the <b>best tanking mod in the game</b>. End of statement.</p><p>Who cares what else the weapon does? The proc rate goes up to 15%, and if it goes off on other procs I can't help but wonder if it will go off on the heal procs the weapon has? If this is the case...you'll have a constant bonus based on your unmittigated wisdom. For ease of number crunching lets call it 1000 wis. That's a constant 300 point buff to your healing and nukes. While it isn't as good as the 120 CA bonus, it isn't laughable either. It is icing on the cake that is the huge uncontested damage mittigation.</p><p>All in all, while the fabled epic basically serves as a place holder, our mythical should have other tank classes screaming that their epics arn't powerful enough.</p><p>Now saying that 99% of us won't get this weapon is more or less true. But at least we know its worth the effort to get it.</p>

[Tames]

<p>CA and spell bonuses are subject to caps which with buffs and gear bonuses may make them useless, depending on your gear. The uncontested 19% is great of course but why make the rest so useless? As tanks, Survivability is our big issue and these items are the result of flawed design.</p><p>There should be a +7 Block instead of the +100 CA for the mythical for instance.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p>The general idea is: Give us block!</p><p>Since EoF and the Blocking Mastery, the Paladin class went towards a heavy armor avoidance tank with significant differences to a Guardian. With the introduction of RoK we were drwan to the OT role as we got Holy Ground. </p><p>According to these changes and looking at the primary role of Paladins on high end raids (and only those Paladins can get the mythical versions in the end), the mythical reward should honor this fact and help the Paladin to fill this role.</p><p>And this role is: Tanking.</p><p>I won't remember that the Guardian weapon is like a godly weapon for every Guardian, as its strenghtens his role in a Raid. How does our weapon strenghten our role? I cant imagine that it was designed to do damage, because its using Wisdom instead of Intelligence, so we have to be in def stance to maximize the gains from the proc, but who wants to DPS in def stance? Missing Str and INT that way is just ridiculous.</p><p>So far I don't see anything where I would take this mythical weapon over my good old SoD, because that one adds the block, wich the guardian weapon also gets. Btw, why do we loose our precious block advantage to guardians that way, that guards can reach our -by AA reached- block value just by using guardian only items? Its like giving Paladins something like a bucklerline with dragon shield req through an Paladin-only item, sounds not fair? Right, it isn't.</p><p>I admit that the 10% dmg reduction and 10% healed incoming damage is a step into the right direction, but due to our nature as avoidance tanks and therefore the expected spike damage when avoidance fails, its just a drop on a boiling stone imho.</p><p>So the idea is to add block to the mythical weapon and think again about this +heal and spelldmg proc thing, wich really no Paladin ever wanted or needed on a high end raid tank weapon.</p>

[Meirril]

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The general idea is: Give us block!</p><p>Since EoF and the Blocking Mastery, the Paladin class went towards a heavy armor avoidance tank with significant differences to a Guardian. With the introduction of RoK we were drwan to the OT role as we got Holy Ground. </p><p>According to these changes and looking at the primary role of Paladins on high end raids (and only those Paladins can get the mythical versions in the end), the mythical reward should honor this fact and help the Paladin to fill this role.</p><p>And this role is: Tanking.</p><p>I won't remember that the Guardian weapon is like a godly weapon for every Guardian, as its strenghtens his role in a Raid. How does our weapon strenghten our role? I cant imagine that it was designed to do damage, because its using Wisdom instead of Intelligence, so we have to be in def stance to maximize the gains from the proc, but who wants to DPS in def stance? Missing Str and INT that way is just ridiculous.</p><p>So far I don't see anything where I would take this mythical weapon over my good old SoD, because that one adds the block, wich the guardian weapon also gets. Btw, why do we loose our precious block advantage to guardians that way, that guards can reach our -by AA reached- block value just by using guardian only items? Its like giving Paladins something like a bucklerline with dragon shield req through an Paladin-only item, sounds not fair? Right, it isn't.</p><p>I admit that the 10% dmg reduction and 10% healed incoming damage is a step into the right direction, but due to our nature as avoidance tanks and therefore the expected spike damage when avoidance fails, its just a drop on a boiling stone imho.</p><p>So the idea is to add block to the mythical weapon and think again about this +heal and spelldmg proc thing, wich really no Paladin ever wanted or needed on a high end raid tank weapon.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, as avoidance tanks (when did we become avoidance?) how many attacks in 100 generally hit us? Figuring that the mob is over our level and probably underconned...60%? 70%? Lets be outrageous and say that half the incomming attacks hit us. This means the 18% uncontested damage reduction the paladin epic offers results in effectively another 9% "damage avoidance". This is better than what your asking for. More over, it actually reinforces that we are <b>plate tanks</b>, not avoidance tanks like brawlers. We are suppose to suck a lot of punishment before we go down. </p><p>Also the +CA damage helps to normalize us with other fighters who have all seen significant increases in their DPS. The proc is marginal, but the rest of the item makes up for that I think. In the mythcial at least.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The general idea is: Give us block!</p><p>Since EoF and the Blocking Mastery, the Paladin class went towards a heavy armor avoidance tank with significant differences to a Guardian. With the introduction of RoK we were drwan to the OT role as we got Holy Ground. </p><p>According to these changes and looking at the primary role of Paladins on high end raids (and only those Paladins can get the mythical versions in the end), the mythical reward should honor this fact and help the Paladin to fill this role.</p><p>And this role is: Tanking.</p><p>I won't remember that the Guardian weapon is like a godly weapon for every Guardian, as its strenghtens his role in a Raid. How does our weapon strenghten our role? I cant imagine that it was designed to do damage, because its using Wisdom instead of Intelligence, so we have to be in def stance to maximize the gains from the proc, but who wants to DPS in def stance? Missing Str and INT that way is just ridiculous.</p><p>So far I don't see anything where I would take this mythical weapon over my good old SoD, because that one adds the block, wich the guardian weapon also gets. Btw, why do we loose our precious block advantage to guardians that way, that guards can reach our -by AA reached- block value just by using guardian only items? Its like giving Paladins something like a bucklerline with dragon shield req through an Paladin-only item, sounds not fair? Right, it isn't.</p><p>I admit that the 10% dmg reduction and 10% healed incoming damage is a step into the right direction, but due to our nature as avoidance tanks and therefore the expected spike damage when avoidance fails, its just a drop on a boiling stone imho.</p><p>So the idea is to add block to the mythical weapon and think again about this +heal and spelldmg proc thing, wich really no Paladin ever wanted or needed on a high end raid tank weapon.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, as avoidance tanks (when did we become avoidance?) how many attacks in 100 generally hit us? Figuring that the mob is over our level and probably underconned...60%? 70%? Lets be outrageous and say that half the incomming attacks hit us. This means the 18% uncontested damage reduction the paladin epic offers results in effectively another 9% "damage avoidance". This is better than what your asking for. More over, it actually reinforces that we are <b>plate tanks</b>, not avoidance tanks like brawlers. We are suppose to suck a lot of punishment before we go down. </p><p>Also the +CA damage helps to normalize us with other fighters who have all seen significant increases in their DPS. The proc is marginal, but the rest of the item makes up for that I think. In the mythcial at least.</p></blockquote><p>Usually on Raids I do avoid 65-67% of incoming attacks without Dirge, this includes uncontested Block and Parry. If you think that 74% avoidance on a raid is NOT avoidance and therefore not avoidance tank, then I would be interested to know what you consider avoidance then. Also I am really interested to know, how you compare the lousy Paladin Mitigation to Guardian Mitigation, to say that we are mitigation tanks then. Just curious...</p><p>On the other hand, please stop talking about 18 or 19% uncontested damage reduction. It is straight 10% damage reduction with a 10% heal AFTEr damage applied, so if you dont survive that damage unhealed, those 10% healed damage wont help either. </p><p>For the math:</p><p>incoming hit say 17k</p><p>Hitpoints paladin, 15k</p><p>10% less damage due to the sword makes 15300 damage that comes through (1700 damage reduced by sword ability)</p><p>15k hiptoints minus 15300 hit, makes a dead paladin (-300 hitpoints)</p><p>dead paladin try's to heal himself for 1530 hp (10% of the damage applied)</p><p>result: still a dead paladin</p><p>all those maths are without any wards or other heals from raidmembers, as we cant them count in as "always existing" on incoming hit</p><p>So please stop that 18 or 19% talking, its 10% not more, with an 10% applied-damage-instantheal afterwards, wich is good, but doesnt count toward the damage reduction in the first place.</p>

[motogp]

If the guardian weapon fell off the face of norrath the palading mythical would be "mythical" . The Paladin mythical does not have to do what the Guard one does. But it should be as good in its own way. Tonight is my last night raiding as a paladin anyway. Good luck, i hope the weapon is changed and is no longer a crap box.  Its sad someone out there thinks they did a good job on that paladin epic.

[Excalibre33]

<p>In many ways (without comparing the weapon to ANY other epics) it is very exciting yet, there does appear to be at least one fundamental mathematical <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=407701" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">design flaw </a>even before the weapon receives extensive testing. Please provide simple and constructive <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=407701" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">feedback</a> (without comparing the item or class to any other) and keep the rest right here in this thread.</p>

[Excalibre33]

In case there may be some confusion, the sky is not falling. We're OK folks. No one needs to /quit. More updates will come. /wink hehehehe

[lavasoul]

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The general idea is: Give us block!</p><p>Since EoF and the Blocking Mastery, the Paladin class went towards a heavy armor avoidance tank with significant differences to a Guardian. With the introduction of RoK we were drwan to the OT role as we got Holy Ground. </p><p>According to these changes and looking at the primary role of Paladins on high end raids (and only those Paladins can get the mythical versions in the end), the mythical reward should honor this fact and help the Paladin to fill this role.</p><p>And this role is: Tanking.</p><p>I won't remember that the Guardian weapon is like a godly weapon for every Guardian, as its strenghtens his role in a Raid. How does our weapon strenghten our role? I cant imagine that it was designed to do damage, because its using Wisdom instead of Intelligence, so we have to be in def stance to maximize the gains from the proc, but who wants to DPS in def stance? Missing Str and INT that way is just ridiculous.</p><p>So far I don't see anything where I would take this mythical weapon over my good old SoD, because that one adds the block, wich the guardian weapon also gets. Btw, why do we loose our precious block advantage to guardians that way, that guards can reach our -by AA reached- block value just by using guardian only items? Its like giving Paladins something like a bucklerline with dragon shield req through an Paladin-only item, sounds not fair? Right, it isn't.</p><p>I admit that the 10% dmg reduction and 10% healed incoming damage is a step into the right direction, but due to our nature as avoidance tanks and therefore the expected spike damage when avoidance fails, its just a drop on a boiling stone imho.</p><p>So the idea is to add block to the mythical weapon and think again about this +heal and spelldmg proc thing, wich really no Paladin ever wanted or needed on a high end raid tank weapon.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, as avoidance tanks (when did we become avoidance?) how many attacks in 100 generally hit us? Figuring that the mob is over our level and probably underconned...60%? 70%? Lets be outrageous and say that half the incomming attacks hit us. This means the 18% uncontested damage reduction the paladin epic offers results in effectively another 9% "damage avoidance". This is better than what your asking for. More over, it actually reinforces that we are <b>plate tanks</b>, not avoidance tanks like brawlers. We are suppose to suck a lot of punishment before we go down. </p><p>Also the +CA damage helps to normalize us with other fighters who have all seen significant increases in their DPS. The proc is marginal, but the rest of the item makes up for that I think. In the mythcial at least.</p></blockquote><p>Usually on Raids I do avoid 65-67% of incoming attacks without Dirge, this includes uncontested Block and Parry. If you think that 74% avoidance on a raid is NOT avoidance and therefore not avoidance tank, then I would be interested to know what you consider avoidance then. Also I am really interested to know, how you compare the lousy Paladin Mitigation to Guardian Mitigation, to say that we are mitigation tanks then. Just curious...</p><p>On the other hand, please stop talking about 18 or 19% uncontested damage reduction. It is straight 10% damage reduction with a 10% heal AFTEr damage applied, so if you dont survive that damage unhealed, those 10% healed damage wont help either. </p><p>For the math:</p><p>incoming hit say 17k</p><p>Hitpoints paladin, 15k</p><p>10% less damage due to the sword makes 15300 damage that comes through (1700 damage reduced by sword ability)</p><p>15k hiptoints minus 15300 hit, makes a dead paladin (-300 hitpoints)</p><p>dead paladin try's to heal himself for 1530 hp (10% of the damage applied)</p><p>result: still a dead paladin</p><p>all those maths are without any wards or other heals from raidmembers, as we cant them count in as "always existing" on incoming hit</p><p>So please stop that 18 or 19% talking, its 10% not more, with an 10% applied-damage-instantheal afterwards, wich is good, but doesnt count toward the damage reduction in the first place.</p></blockquote>Finally there is someone out there that thinks like I do. I posted that on several thread explaining it but some just dont understand a 10% heal don't do anything to a dead paladin and we can't just add both together to get a 18-20% dmg reduction, one is apple and the other is orange.

[Excalibre33]

<p>Just curious, is it expected that a tank will survive a 17k hit without any help, even from their own hotbar?</p>

[Niou]

<cite>Strikkeer@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am officially displeased with this weapon - it fits a templar more than a Paladin. We need class defining weapon that we can use while tanking (one handers are used with a shield, hint hint - that means while tanking) It is virtually impossible to heal much while main tanking - we need a weapon that gives us more survivability as a tank - that is what we are supposed to be - that came directly from SOE original blueprint of the Paladin - a main tank, not necessarily better than Guardians - but at least as capable.</p><p> Just take a look at the Guardian Mythical - it is geared around tanking - we need something similar to that.</p></blockquote>   Actually, for those of us that actually played the first SoE design for Paladin. We were not made to be main tanks then, we were able to parse with the best of dps on raids and in group. We were able to heal effectively, and in raids we made great off tanks and support. The role has changed much. The only problem is, we are now incapable of doing any damage effectively and our rez timer is off the charts, leaving you people that half know your class to cry about the fact that you cant tank as well as a Guardian. Guardians and Zerkers have always and will always end up being the preferred tanks. Why? Because paladin's can heal and provide better support. I also noticed many people saying that heals are a nice side attraction for a Paladin. How can you possibly not understand your class to this level?The epic is....fine, it is not a weapon that should be classified as epic, but what are you going to do? Scream that the epic should allow you to be a Guardian? Paladin's have been trying for that from the time of the game's release and it has not happened yet, nor will it. The only thing I don't understand is, Why does SoE keep putting us in this category? Their obviously not bumping us up to the level of Guardians, yet they design a weapon that is meant to be used when tanking and in defensive stance. Are they simply attempting to cater to the mass of paladin's crying to tank?   SoE needs to make up their mind and determine the role they want Paladin's to take. You gave us Holy Ground, we're now one of the best off tanks in the game. What exactly do you intend for us to do in the meantime? minimal dps, waiting on the side lines and casting our heals? What honestly needs to be looked at here is the class itself, if anything the epic's are a clear sign that they don't know what to do with the Paladin.   SoE, Either attempt to make the Paladin a viable option for tanking raids or give them another role entirely. Yes, I have tanked and continue to tank some raid mob's, but the Guardian's are preferred and it isn't a secret. When fighting epic's, change DA from an effect that prevents damage if below half the Paladins health, to an effect to prevents damage if it is over that amount. There are any number of other changes that might serve to improve our status in the raiding stance.   The other option would be to return us to what we once were. A class unique out of all the others. Able to heal and rescue their group and the raids main tank out of situations, provide some buff's and quick rez's for the raid, while also putting out a respectable amount of damage. Paladin's are not asking to be able to do everything at once, such as Monks can. A simple redesign of an AA line, or redesign of our offensive stance. Something that would allow us to do damage at the cost of our other ability's.    This would also of course need the redesign of the epic, which I think everyone would be happy with. The problem is, The Paladin's on this forum will not go for it, They are determined to be tanks without playing a Guardian. Many sit here, half understanding their class, and say that healing is not a Paladin's job. Like it's some kind of extra ability tacked on to their taunts. Key Here is: The Paladin epic reflects the problem with SoE's design of the class, they don't have any idea what they want Paladin's to do, and so the epic is flawed from the start.

[Cyrdemac]

<cite>Oisin@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just curious, is it expected that a tank will survive a 17k hit without any help, even from their own hotbar?</p></blockquote><p>Of course not. It was a simple math, to show how this sword works. Usually its smaller hits, but mostly on an already damaged Paladin (typical raid situation). So you can think of incoming hits of something like 7k with 6k hp left that moment, wich a Paladin would survive, if it were rally a 18% damage reduce, but he dies, because it isn't.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<cite>Niou wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Strikkeer@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am officially displeased with this weapon - it fits a templar more than a Paladin. We need class defining weapon that we can use while tanking (one handers are used with a shield, hint hint - that means while tanking) It is virtually impossible to heal much while main tanking - we need a weapon that gives us more survivability as a tank - that is what we are supposed to be - that came directly from SOE original blueprint of the Paladin - a main tank, not necessarily better than Guardians - but at least as capable.</p><p> Just take a look at the Guardian Mythical - it is geared around tanking - we need something similar to that.</p></blockquote>   Actually, for those of us that actually played the first SoE design for Paladin. We were not made to be main tanks then, we were able to parse with the best of dps on raids and in group. We were able to heal effectively, and in raids we made great off tanks and support. The role has changed much. The only problem is, we are now incapable of doing any damage effectively and our rez timer is off the charts, leaving you people that half know your class to cry about the fact that you cant tank as well as a Guardian. Guardians and Zerkers have always and will always end up being the preferred tanks. Why? Because paladin's can heal and provide better support. I also noticed many people saying that heals are a nice side attraction for a Paladin. How can you possibly not understand your class to this level?The epic is....fine, it is not a weapon that should be classified as epic, but what are you going to do? Scream that the epic should allow you to be a Guardian? Paladin's have been trying for that from the time of the game's release and it has not happened yet, nor will it. The only thing I don't understand is, Why does SoE keep putting us in this category? Their obviously not bumping us up to the level of Guardians, yet they design a weapon that is meant to be used when tanking and in defensive stance. Are they simply attempting to cater to the mass of paladin's crying to tank?   SoE needs to make up their mind and determine the role they want Paladin's to take. You gave us Holy Ground, we're now one of the best off tanks in the game. What exactly do you intend for us to do in the meantime? minimal dps, waiting on the side lines and casting our heals? What honestly needs to be looked at here is the class itself, if anything the epic's are a clear sign that they don't know what to do with the Paladin.   SoE, Either attempt to make the Paladin a viable option for tanking raids or give them another role entirely. Yes, I have tanked and continue to tank some raid mob's, but the Guardian's are preferred and it isn't a secret. When fighting epic's, change DA from an effect that prevents damage if below half the Paladins health, to an effect to prevents damage if it is over that amount. There are any number of other changes that might serve to improve our status in the raiding stance.   The other option would be to return us to what we once were. A class unique out of all the others. Able to heal and rescue their group and the raids main tank out of situations, provide some buff's and quick rez's for the raid, while also putting out a respectable amount of damage. Paladin's are not asking to be able to do everything at once, such as Monks can. A simple redesign of an AA line, or redesign of our offensive stance. Something that would allow us to do damage at the cost of our other ability's.    This would also of course need the redesign of the epic, which I think everyone would be happy with. The problem is, The Paladin's on this forum will not go for it, They are determined to be tanks without playing a Guardian. Many sit here, half understanding their class, and say that healing is not a Paladin's job. Like it's some kind of extra ability tacked on to their taunts. Key Here is: The Paladin epic reflects the problem with SoE's design of the class, they don't have any idea what they want Paladin's to do, and so the epic is flawed from the start.</blockquote>Actually, you are right with that first version of a Paladin, but it changed. Right now, a Paladin on a Raid is not a healer or buff-bot supporter, he actually is a tank, one of the best OTs atm. If you need a proof: Holy Ground, Level 80 Paladin Special, designed to pull aggro of an entire room if necessary (and in range), something futile if you do it as healer or supporting buff-machine. Thats why most of the Paladins demand a Tank-weapon for a raiding Paladin instead that mixed something we have there right now. It has to be a tanking one, because only raid Paladins will get this, and the majority of them have this role on raids today. Just mho.

[Excalibre33]

<cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oisin@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just curious, is it expected that a tank will survive a 17k hit without any help, even from their own hotbar?</p></blockquote><p>Of course not. It was a simple math, to show how this sword works. Usually its smaller hits, but mostly on an already damaged Paladin (typical raid situation). So you can think of incoming hits of something like 7k with 6k hp left that moment, wich a Paladin would survive, if it were rally a 18% damage reduce, but he dies, because it isn't.</p></blockquote>That makes very sound sense. Thank you for insuring the reasoning is not distorted.