Why did Guardians got the sugar on their epic weapons, esspecially proc

[Faelgalad]

<p>Even our Raid MT's (both Guardians) admit, the proc's are unfair and Guardians got the sugar. </p><p><b>Guardian:</b> </p><p>Proc by Melee Attacks, and percentage mitigation of incoming damage. All Damage, not melee only, all! Also a Damage proc. </p><p>Attributes: 102 in combat, 20 wisdom</p><p>Disadvantage: 3 seconds delay and a bit low in max. Damage. With the hard hitting T8 Epics, our Guards will take it 'cause superior proc. </p><p>Graphic: Not spectacular, a bit dull and basic. </p><p>Conclusion: Proc make it King!</p><p><b>Paladin:</b> </p><p>Proc: 9% on spells (all with long casting times) to get 25% of their wisdom as Spell/Heal Bonus. So the Joe-Normal Paladin with 500 wisdom is getting 125 on Spell and Heals for 15 seconds. </p><p>Attributes: 78 in combat attributes, 24 wisdom, 20 intelligence. </p><p>Opinion: 125 Points is a single item or three mastercrafted armor parts, which are better, as the work all the time. Paladins need no Spellbonus, they need defense or massive mana proc (warden style would be nice). Melee orientated Paladins who go for Str. Agi. Sta. get even less. </p><p>Graphic: Crap, a transparent [Removed for Content]!</p><p>Discrimination: Only +3 melee crit, while all other get +4. With Shadowknight together, the only one without an build in damage proc. </p><p>Conclusion: Crap, no Paladin will exchange this as we have Nathsar Shordsword, Sword-of-Destiny Gladius. Our T8 Epic is not worth switching a easily obtainable Crypt of Agony sword (Nathsar Shordsword). </p><p><b>Berserker:</b> </p><p>proc: the Epic "standart" proc seen on a lot of Epics. 12 second increase in a important stat, 8% melee crit in this case. Damageproc</p><p>Attributes: 110 in Combat attributes, 20 wis. </p><p>Graphic. After the Bruiser, the second in creative design</p><p>Opinion: </p><p>Disadvantage: Only double attack and not melee crit. Also Berserker can skill Double attack by achivment, won't hurt so much to have double attack on their weapon, in comparision to bruiser and shadowknight. </p><p>A bit low maximum damage, hard to believe that Zerker will swap from a 300 max. to a 230 max. Damage weapon. </p><p><b>Bruiser: </b></p><p>Proc:  Is unique with Tanking part by attacking frontal and not tanking side/rear attacking. </p><p>Graphic: Unique graphic. Creative Idea, a big compliment to the artist and graphic people. </p><p>Disadvantage: With the unsolved problem of avoidance, tanking is not really a bruisers strenght. And on the easy mobs, the proc isn't neccesary.</p><p>Not solved the problem of bare-handed Bruisers and epic weapon.  </p><p>Discrimination: No melee crit, only double attack. Bruisers can't skill double attack With the low number of Monk/Bruiser weapons in RoK until now (which is a discrimination), many will take it I guess. </p><p><b>Monk: </b></p><p>Proc: The "standart" proc with an temporary melee critical bonus, just like Zerker. (Wasn't epic procs to be unique? One more broken promise!)</p><p>Attributes: 102 Combat Attributes, 20 wisdom</p><p>Graphic: Uninspired, a Katar Weapon with klingon style blades in all directions, s bit childish (my weapon has more blades than you). But quantitiy not quality in this weapon. </p><p>Opinion: The Monk has nothing special, but no real weakness in it's weapon. With the low number of Monk/Bruiser weapons in RoK until now (which is a discrimination), many will take it I guess. </p><p><b>Shadowknight: </b></p><p>Proc: This is my uncertain candidat. how much aggo is got with the leech. But it works only on a third of the Shadowknights Problems. Aggro, Defense, Mana. </p><p>Attributes: only 72 in combat Attributes, 20 wis, 24 int. </p><p>Graphics: Weapon is to big, more a two-hander sword or a big one-and-a-half haned than a one-hand weapon. Grip and pommel are taken from a two-hander defintly. So old-stuff-recycling. </p><p>Disadvantage: Double attack instead of melee crit/spell crit. Double attack is not so good as crit. Weapon has 20 life less than the other epic weapons. </p><p>Opinion: The proc make this the uncertain candidat. </p><p><b>Final Conclusion:</b> </p><p>With the exception of Guardian Weapon, the procs are nothing. Let's compare. What is 5% damage reduction? Let talk about percentages. A 10% increase in Damage for Bruiser, a 50% decrease of Manausage for Crusaders (like wardens)...Even worse, Tanks are underpresented in Raids, so they get a far decreased chance for an Raidupgrade. My Paladin will not have the chance for an upgrade. </p><p>No, only the Guard get's the nice percentage. 5% of a 15000 points pboae in Protectors Realm are nice! Five Percent are five percent and guards are even good in mitigation. </p><p>It proves that SOE are liar. As the class text doesn't mention that crusaders and bruiser/monks are inferior tanks. This procs shows, Guardian is "THE" Tank, all other are downsized Tanks and inferior scouts (melee DPS classes). No unique Procs, no real creative design on four of six weapons. </p><p>Shame, shame on SOE for treating customers in this way. </p><p>I will not finish my Epic weapon. </p><p>Thanks for wasted hours, thanks for demoralising. </p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>How in the world can you possibly claim that the Berzerker epic is actually good looking? It's a 3 bladed mace that's not even worthy of being wielded by a zerker. It has no animations or any ornate detail. It needs a big-*** axe head 4 times larger than an ogre's head, just like in EQlive.</p><p>Guardian: Bad-***</p><p>Monk: Awesome</p><p>Paladin: Haven't seen it yet.</p><p>Shadowknight: Cool, but the EQlive epic is still better.</p><p>Bruiser: Meh. The scorpion tail would make it look cooler if it wasn't added on as an after-thought.</p><p>I agree with the procs though. Completely uninspired.</p>

[Rainmare]

the thing about the paladin epic people aren't getting is it works on ALL my spells. every heal I throw, every ward, every nuke I have. prolly work on every trigger of consecration as well. it's very comparable to the nath shortsword, and I'd use the epic over it.damage is not a big deal to most paladins. we have Sigil, Amends, and now Holy Ground. I got plenty of aggro tools that don't need me to dish out super dps. I have support buffs for raids, and I can heal pretty [Removed for Content] good, and I can even tank with my 25% increase to block/shield effectiveness.As far as looks...it looks like a sword to me. it has some extra 'blade' ridges that seem to be transluecent. but I think it looks pretty nice.

[Screengu]

Isn't the guardian weapon limited to physical damage? OP sounds like an anti guardian.

[Faelgalad]

<p>Anti-Guardian?</p><p>No. </p><p>Anti-Discrimiation, yes</p><p>Anti-SOE, growing</p><p>Against sugar policy, definitly</p><p>The line haa crossed. This should be an epic paladin weapon? Slap into our face, they spit on us. </p><p>5% vs. all physical Damage, which is 50-90% of all Damage. </p><p>@Cusashorn</p><p>The Zerker weapon is creative in design. Good looking depends on personal taste. </p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

The SK one is quite nice actually, and the proc is decent. 15 second proc 1.8 times/min can add substancial hate with a series of taps. DA instead of crit is fine too considering we already have crit achievements, and much of our dammage is not melee based. Overall, its decent...still hard to swap away from the block of the SoD though (but not everyone has that as well I suppose).

[Rainmare]

Tell me why you think that a Guard, who gets a mitigation buff, that we can easily overcome through our AA lines, is so super powered. I'm sorry, but 5% less damage does not trump 25% more chance to completely avoid damage through Block. and our weapon, helps us do what we're supposed to help do when not tanking. DPS and Healing. and we could tank with it just as easy.Now, if the Mythical version of the Guardian weapon has a bunch of mitigation/taunt/hat etransfer effects, I might call foul. but right now it gives them a little boost in survivability, and ours gives us a boost in dps/healing. I don't see that big a deal, especially since when tanking, using self heals and self wards should come as naturally as taunting.

[Undorett]

<p>The guardian proc is basically a second mitigation vs physical damage...its not very good imo unless it is changed to a higher percent.</p><p>Let's assume a standard guardian has about 60% mitigation.  When this proc is up (for what 20 seconds a minute, and it would probably only fire after hitting it a few times ie. after the mob is debuffed and you dont need the extra damage absorbtion anymore) instead of the 40% damage you would have taken from the mob, you take 38% of the damage the mob would have dealt anyway, not 35%.</p><p>100% damage x 0.6 = 60% mitigatated with the first check, now only 40% damage is coming through and you are mitigating that with 5% which equals an additional 2%.  The proc is underpowered imo, because remember it is only up about 30% of the time and not at the begining of the battle.  The proc is still underpowered on the mythical version, but the other abilities on it definately make up for it.</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tell me why you think that a Guard, who gets a mitigation buff, that we can easily overcome through our AA lines, is so super powered. I'm sorry, but 5% less damage does not trump 25% more chance to completely avoid damage through Block. and our weapon, helps us do what we're supposed to help do when not tanking. DPS and Healing. and we could tank with it just as easy.Now, if the Mythical version of the Guardian weapon has a bunch of mitigation/taunt/hat etransfer effects, I might call foul. but right now it gives them a little boost in survivability, and ours gives us a boost in dps/healing. <b><span style="color: #ffff00;">I don't see that big a deal, especially since when tanking, using self heals and self wards should come as naturally as taunting.</span></b></blockquote>Eehhehehehehe.. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Ama]

<p>Personally i'm wondering why developers even put epics in if all players do is complain at them.  They are literally damned if they do cause you people open them a new hole and their damned if they don't because people want epics.  Stop gripping about the epics already yesh</p><p>These group epics are freakin sweet imho and already as a warden i'm gonna be trading out my anaphalxis reward for my warden epic very shortly.  I'm going to be mega [Removed for Content] off if all your whinning causes my weapon to be nerfed to 10% and has the mana boost reduced to 50-70.  </p><p>The raid epics will more than make up for the shortcommings of some weapons.  I've seen the guardian raid epic and any guardian will be proud to have that sucker.  Right now personally the only class that should even have the right to complain imho are the assassins for how their weapon looks.  </p>

[Windowlicker]

It kills me when people start complaining about balance when the full set of Mythical items haven't come out.  Go Armchair Dev's!

[Zeuhl]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tell me why you think that a Guard, who gets a mitigation buff, that we can easily overcome through our AA lines, is so super powered. I'm sorry, but 5% less damage does not trump 25% more chance to completely avoid damage through Block. and our weapon, helps us do what we're supposed to help do when not tanking. DPS and Healing. and we could tank with it just as easy.<b>Now, if the Mythical version of the Guardian weapon has a bunch of mitigation/taunt/hat etransfer effects, I might call foul.</b> but right now it gives them a little boost in survivability, and ours gives us a boost in dps/healing. I don't see that big a deal, especially since when tanking, using self heals and self wards should come as naturally as taunting.</blockquote>  Saw the guard mythical yesterday, it removes shield requirements(not sure of exact wording, but they still have to have a shield equipped). So they could get the double attack and buckler reversal of STA line with a tower shield.

[LygerT]

i won't complain about the epics until i start seeing more of the mythicals coming out. honestly though i don't think my zerk mythical will compete with guardians and if it does and is better then people will cry nerf for our mythical. its a lose/lose situation for us...

[Faelgalad]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>It kills me when people start complaining about balance when the full set of Mythical items haven't come out.  Go Armchair Dev's!</blockquote><p>95% of all Paladins and Shadowknights will not own a Mythical version of their weapon, 'cause they are the least desired Raid class. </p><p>Even if these two epic myticals are over-the-top and uber items, it will not comensate for the widely spread fabled version. </p><p>Let's talk about the Average-Joe who has done a lot for his weapon. Tank Community on Innovation is dying,  people are looking longer and longer for Tanks on our server. So upgrading the non-guardians is highly recommended. </p><p>My Raid lost nearly it's Shadowknight and Bruiser, as they are bitter! Beyond the fact that they feel both inferior to Monk and Paladin and we all feel as stepchilds to the Guardian. My own Paladin (not my Raid Char, that's my Troub) is on strike for Group play. </p><p>I have switched account for fun for a few days with my Raid MT (Guardian). He is a well versed tank player, as an T8 Raidtank. I was easily fighting with his Guardian, tanking all T8 Instances and T7 Pickup Raid for fun. His conclusions on the Paladin, bad mitigation, bad DPS, not enough Goodies in the attacks/spells, healing is worthless. </p><p>I know not a single Bruiser happy with his Epic weapon, mythical or not. As long as Bruiser's have no uncontested Avoidance, the weapon is nonsense. Making their deflection uncontested like block, would improve the tank situation for groups as for raids. </p>

[Kizee]

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally i'm wondering why developers even put epics in if all players do is complain at them.  They are literally damned if they do cause you people open them a new hole and their damned if they don't because people want epics.  Stop gripping about the epics already yesh</p></blockquote><p>SoE said that the mythical versions of these weapons would be the best of the best but most of them missed the mark so bad that they really don't deserve the mythical tag.</p>

[SisterTheresa]

<p>Interesting ... </p><p>Should this go in with all the other threads of opposite classes complaining the other class has a better epic?</p><p>I never even had an Epic weapon before.  When I get mine I think I'll whiz in my chair.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>a transparent [Removed for Content]!</blockquote>How did that one slip by<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Bruener]

<p>Well mythical's coming out basically nerfed SK's in a round about way.  Everybody's DPS goes way up except a SK moving them down overall to number 5 on the DPS scale for fighters.  Brilliant, make an offensive tank epic with basically no DPS increaser on it...</p><p>Seriously, some classes have every right to be happy about epics, but than there are plenty of classes that get a kick in the nuts for the best weapon for their class.</p>

[Vendolyn]

@ Rahatmatta: I almost spit all over my monitor!  Haha, teach me to drink and read ;p

[FinalOrder]

<p>Its not the proc that makes the Guardian epic so uber, it is the weapons passive ability which remove's the buckler requirement of the warrior stamina line. So, Guardians can now use tower shields with the epic while having 60% double attack, and still make use of the 9% 360 avoidance and 4.5% frontal riposte, and shoot, even gladiater's reversal is still nice for some dps I guess..</p><p>The proc is nice, yes, and the weapon has a great spread.. 3 second delay is about the best u can ask for imo and the min and max is gapped very large, making for very nice crits. Im happy for them that they got something so nice.. its not like, when people think uber, they think guardian anyways, its usually a scout or mage class that people always talk about. Spread the love~</p><p>Berserker epic blows though, no arguement there..</p><p>Rottk</p>

[Rainmare]

I'm not sure how the Paladin mythical will compare, really. the Guard tanks will get that super extra mit. they are going to be the hands down without question best tank in the game, bar none for mit/avoidance.but that mythical effect we get, the 10% of damage becomes a heal...unless that has some kind of 'if this hit kills you, you'll be alive with 10% of it's damage as your health' just doesn't work I think I good as it might sound on paper. I mean epic type mobs hit for 5-7k easy in RoK. so for every 5000 pts damage I get, I get healed for 500. sounds good, except the next hit I'm taking negates that heal by being for another 5000.getting a 100 pt heal when a mob hits me for a thousand isn't as impressive in action as it sounds on paper. But since it'll be a long time before I get a mythical version, I'm making due with the fabled, which is actually pretty nice so far. that spell proc works wonders for warding/healing/curing. and does give a decent little jump to spell damage. and with proper symbol/ranged it can parse pretty close to my spine of scorpkis

[LygerT]

<cite>FinalOrder wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Berserker epic blows though, no arguement there..</p><p>Rottk</p></blockquote><p>gee thanks...</p><p>i love being the class everyone looks at and goes "i wonder why they're still a zerker"</p><p>just want to thank all the little people (devs) who have basically forced my brothers/sisters to betrayal and forcing us to be a bland heroic tank with no snap aggro tools, without a good group makeup and buffs even offensively we still have aggro issues with our lack of survivability. *golf clap*</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>For some reason, the idea of zerkers betraying for a weapon they will very likely never obtain, makes me smile.</p>

[Cmos]

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For some reason, the idea of zerkers betraying for a weapon they will very likely never obtain, makes me smile.</p></blockquote>Please do not post on a topic you have no idea about what-so-ever... zerks are not betraying because of this one sole weapon... this is the straw that broke the camels back... please go get a clue then come back with something intelligent... ffs

[LygerT]

well he is sort of right but not by our choice, only a few raiding guilds capable of clearing the content even bother carrying a zerk OT. i'm sure as time goes on more guilds will clear the content and zerks will get their mythicals, if they are still around at that point. the few zerks who currently have it don't seem very impressed with it, for good reasons.

[Cmos]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>well he is sort of right but not by our choice, only a few raiding guilds capable of clearing the content even bother carrying a zerk OT. i'm sure as time goes on more guilds will clear the content and zerks will get their mythicals, if they are still around at that point. the few zerks who currently have it don't seem very impressed with it, for good reasons.</blockquote>agreeable... but the idea of someone getting pleasure from someone else's dismay... he needs to take that bs somewhere else.

[LygerT]

i found it rather ironic that most of the ones who find delight in it is from the guardians, telling us to betray or [Removed for Content], more or less telling us to flood the game with yet more of the class for competition. i'm sure i would make an exceptional guard but i don't want to be a fairweather player moving from one side of the field to the other when things get rough. why would we only want 1 tank class running around the game? i just don't see that as something i really want from an MMO

[Arkinon]

First of Pallys DONT get an extra 25% block chance. If you actually read it its an additional 25% of the block value.<div><span style="font-size: 13px;font-family: Helvetica;" class="Apple-style-span">Example</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 13px;font-family: Helvetica;" class="Apple-style-span">"This will increase your blocking by 24% of your base blocking stat when you have a shield equipped"</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 13px;font-family: Helvetica;" class="Apple-style-span">Say, for example, your blocking is 20% before Blocking Mastery. With this AA you will now have a blocking of 24.8%.<p >Equation: 'current block %' * 1.24 = 'new block %</p><p ></p><p >Where the additional 4% or so is nice its by FAR not the be all to end all.  I getting really tired of people that dont play a Pally making comments about how superior this AA line is.</p><p ></p></span></div>

[Barakuz]

<p>Ironic, especially when Zerkers were saying "betray" after the LU13 Guardian nerf.</p><p>Man I wish this thread would just die, I get so tired of people bleating about other classes and crying for nerfs. Even the title is annoying - it might be slightly less annoying if it was either spelled correctly or was constructed using the english language. The OP must be a "Larry the Cable Guy" fan.</p><p>Regards</p><p> Bara</p>

[LygerT]

<cite>Barakuz wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ironic, especially when Zerkers were saying "betray" after the LU13 Guardian nerf.</p></blockquote><p>why don't we just go over the complete history of the game? i thought it was 2008, my clock must be broken. i wasn't around back then but i guess i'm paying for sony's big blunder from years ago though. slightly different in a now aged game too where it takes a little more tact to keep people happy vs the middle school kid lineup for choosing teams</p>

[Bu]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>why don't we just go over the complete history of the game? i thought it was 2008, my clock must be broken. i wasn't around back then but i guess i'm paying for sony's big blunder from years ago though. slightly different in a now aged game too where it takes a little more tact to keep people happy vs the middle school kid lineup for choosing teams</blockquote><p>I really think the Devs are caught up in a concept v. execution debacle. The original idea was not to have 24 completely different classes, but 12 classes and 2 subclasses from each class. Each sub class being the opposite side of the same coin and originally raid content was almost nothing. Raiding in EQ2 is much more evolved, but the concept is still suppose to be simple. The concept, at least to the appearance, is all too forgotten. </p><p>It seems like we (the players and the devs) are through the looking glass. Originally the concept formed the execution, now the execution reforms the concept. </p>