Tradeskill Epic Quest Bottleneck....

[Jacobian21]

Since my server seems to have either few lv 80 crafters who were playing today, or they were all lv 80/80 ppl who were working on their weapon epics instead... I have a VERY hard time finding anyone who got to the part where you collect the 9 crafted pieces.  I'm stuck there needing 6 more and was just wondering a few things from those who are on more TS-active servers.  Is that the last step in the quest or is there more after that?  And what are the actual stats/effects of the cloaks?  I've only done this on my provie so far and he's stuck... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Whilhelmina]

<p>I think I will have a hard time today on Storms finding anybody (except my husband) to do this ^^But wait and see, You don't have to get this cloak the first day of launch. </p><p>But I do hope there are no more steps after that, waiting will be quite time consuming I think... But being able to speak and interact with other crafters will be nice I think.</p>

[bks6721]

saw a jeweler in the crafting channel offering to make the items for 10p.   /rolleyes

[Smirkey_of_Nektulos]

Hey, Jacobian.  This is the Tailor you were chatting with last night.  Hopefully there will be enough of us in every tradeskill class around in the next few days so that everyone can get whatever they need without getting price gouged for the "favor" of some greedy idiot's "help".I hope the person offering their services for 10p got laughed right out of the crafting channel.  I honestly could understand reimbursement for fuel costs if there are any, and a few gold for time, but that just takes the cake.  As for me, my wife and I have all 9 crafting classes on the Nek server and they're all level 70 and up.  Once they're all 80 I will be going through this routine with all of them.  Any toon active at those crafting stations or camped there will be available for anyone who needs help, if they would be so kind as to return the favor if needed.

[Syndic]

This is the worst quest I have ever had the privilege of not really wanting to finish.  Do I really want to pay over 20p (and that's not counting the "charge" to make the item) to get a claok just for looks?Some might say "just don't do the quest", that would be just like saying "don't play the game", I like to quest, I have all 9 crafters at 80 - I did that so I could be self sufficient, well there goes that idea.You've made a quest wide open to abuse from other players.  Scintilating material went up 100 fold on the broker when 1 player bought them all up.  This also went for the T5 rares, some are over 5p now.OK so it's the first day and one would hope that these prices will settle down but that will be several months down the track, a bit of variety in what could be used in the recipe, or even components specifically for the item sold on vendor would have been better.But the commission system, come on it's bad enough we need 1 item from every class without making you have to stand next to the person.  Not only that your limiting it to people who have done the quest, I'm just hoping everyone only realises what a pita the quest is at the same step as me at least then they'd have the recipe .  As time goes by this cloak will die into obscurity through it's difficulty to obtain and other than a fancy look offers nothing.  I know you want to introduce interdependancy but commissioned crafting is not it.The effect I'm not worried about I agree with Domino when she says there is not really much in an epic way to improve crafts through stats on items.  I was after the look as I'm sure many others are.I have yet to make any of the 9 items, but guessing from the rest of the quest, you don't actually end up with an item but just an update (hence the commission part)  why not make it an item and LORE that way players can place it up for sale and trade them around, but not with any frequency that would mean 1 crafter corners the market.I'm a crafter not a banker, I want items/quests like this that I <b>craft</b> not that I have to get a loanshark to approve the purchase of, the quest was 100% top knotch best quest I have done in EQ2 so far until "Proof in the Pudding" came along and more than destroyed it all.  (gold sellers here we come).I would even live with the ridiculous rare requirements if the commission part of the quest was removed.  Although doing something about the ingredients would be nice also.Domino and other devs I love your work, but hoops are for dolphins and circus lions to jump through.

[Jacobian21]

<p>Well, I bought enough rubies for all 9 components under the erroneous assumption that the same components would be used for all the pieces.  I assumed this because both the jeweler and provie items require a ruby.  However, late last night I found a sage who was working on the quest and his item required a rhodium.. I was like.. oh jeeze, how dumb...  But we worked it out.  I made him the provie item with one of my rubies and he made me the sage item with his rhodium.  I think this might be the way to go for me since I still have the 6 other rubies in my inventory.  It's all about give and take, and I think most crafters would be willing to take a small hit and ignore the potential price differences in the rares.  I was lucky to find nice people who weren't out to gouge others for crafting and we just made the items for each other.  Tonight I hope to find more such people and get this done.  </p><p> However, I have yet to hear from anyone who has gotten past this step to find out what else there is to do (if anything).  And as for the prices of rares skyrocketing.. I knew that would happen so I bought my rubies right away (still cost me like 4 or 5p).  And as for that reject trying to gouge people, I have a feeling if he hasn't already finished the quest, he is going to have a hard time getting other crafters to make the items for him.  They'll probably just ignore him cuz he's an idiot.  </p><p> And for the last poster, FYI, the items you make at this bottleneck step DO actually appear in your inventory.  They are Legendary and No-trade.  They might even be Lore, but I can't remember and I'm at work so I can't check.  So they take up space until you completely finish that step in the quest, then that greedy little halfling will take them all!</p>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<cite>bks6721 wrote:</cite><blockquote>saw a jeweler in the crafting channel offering to make the items for 10p.   /rolleyes</blockquote><p>That's a bit steep. If you and the person need each others item, it's a nice deal to make for no cost. I have been thinking about what to charge because I'm not giving it away (doing EVERYTHING for EVERYONE free makes all the time I put into tradeskilling and this game worthless). It IS an epic quest for some hopefully uber item. I am considering 20-25g and they provide just the rare (don't forget 5g for fuel cost included in that). I'm sure everyone will have 1-3 items a friend can make at cost. II provide the rare (and everything, think of how easy I made it) I am considering charging 1p or 75g. </p><p>I have 6 lvl 80 TSers, what stinks is I can't make all my own stuff since a few are on same accounts (3 accts). But I know peoples.</p><p>Don't forget to get portable tinkered crafting tables for easy meeting up with people and keep your fuel on you!</p>

[Mystfit]

It only bothers me some that my toons can't make for my alts. (the mirror one bummed me out in that regard too), I'll find other peple, no question, that's rather the point of the excercise is to get us out and about, but if we do run into hassles it woulda been nice to fall back on.

[MrWolfie]

**** 'em. I'm not being forced out and about. I was quit over the Unrest cheating scandal. My subs will be up in March. The Epic quests the way they're currently set-up aren't going to win me back.IMO, they should be startable before 80, items should be tradeable (what are we: tradespeople who can't trade??)I'm sure as I learn more about them, I'll have more thoughts on how they could be improved. In the meantime, I don't care a fig about them.

[Syndic]

<cite>Jacobian21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And for the last poster, FYI, the items you make at this bottleneck step DO actually appear in your inventory.  They are Legendary and No-trade.  They might even be Lore, but I can't remember and I'm at work so I can't check.  So they take up space until you completely finish that step in the quest, then that greedy little halfling will take them all!</p></blockquote>Well that is goodish to know wouldn't take much to remove the no trade tag from the items.As for the you make my item I'll make yours, each crafter only needs one of each item, the chances of finding 8 other crafters who have yet to find a provisioner out there who hasn't made theirs yet.  As for the difference in the rare price it varies by huge amounts to the point of if I had 9 rubies it would reach just over 20p on the broker (ebon clusters would be nicer at 50p).  But makes for a very expensive cloak/earring.<span class="name"><b>Zehl_Ice-Fire</b></span><cite> wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span class="postbody">It IS an epic quest for some hopefully uber item.</span></p></blockquote>Actually it ISN'T an epic quest.  It is a quest for crafters, the epic part was tagged on by the boss, so what the boss says goes.  The reward is anything but epic.I still say have the crafting class interdependancy I don't have a problem with needing stuff from other classes, thats why I created all 9 of them, but to require them them to hold my hand while I make it serves no purpose than other than to sting those who have multiple crafters.

[Jacobian21]

<p>One obvious problem with removing the No-Trade tag, is that people would then start making lots of these items and putting them up for sale on the broker.  Then people would just "skip" that part of the quest as they intended, and buy all the pieces.  and... *poof* there's your cloak.  However, if it did change, I wouldn't really complain because then I could just get all my crafters to make 9 of their own item and keep one for themselves. and then I'd have all the claoks! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[NiamiDenMother]

Unfortunately, enough folks kvetched here in the past pretty much demanding that interdependency be brought back, that, well, we got interdependency returned to us.Sadly, there is no way to please everyone, on this, or on anything else, for that matter.I strongly encourage folks to use the Marketplace area of these forums, and over <a href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/forumdisplay.php?f=10" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">on my forums too</a>, to keep track of crafters willing and able to help others with combines on their server.  Especially since crafting channels on each server are split between good and evil, you won't always learn in-channel of folks who can help you (Teren's Grasp is a lovely neutral crafting area, that anyone working on this quest will have access to, due to level 80 requiring the expansion).  It may take a bit to coordinate timing, but it should be doable for those who want to put forth the effort.~Mum, who only has parts from 2 other classes so far for the first of her army to run through the quest, and will be chasing other crafters down "real soon now" for other bits.

[Rqron]

Hmm will need to check the broker after work..maybe the 30+ rubies and 45+ rhodium I have in the bank horded for my jeweler and sage will find someone else who can use them..same with the imbuing material..thanks devs, I actually tossed some out last week because I  only keep 2 stacks of anything. Interesting times we live in..and from the description the  'epic cloak"  is for looks only? No real stats to it that would set them apart from the cloaks that are out there?  Well, I guess for me its not even worth doing the quests then.J.C.

[Jacobian21]

<cite>NiamiDenMother wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, enough folks kvetched here in the past pretty much demanding that interdependency be brought back, that, well, we got interdependency returned to us.Sadly, there is no way to please everyone, on this, or on anything else, for that matter.I strongly encourage folks to use the Marketplace area of these forums, and over <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/forumdisplay.php?f=10" target="_blank">on my forums too</a>, to keep track of crafters willing and able to help others with combines on their server.  Especially since crafting channels on each server are split between good and evil, you won't always learn in-channel of folks who can help you (Teren's Grasp is a lovely neutral crafting area, that anyone working on this quest will have access to, due to level 80 requiring the expansion).  It may take a bit to coordinate timing, but it should be doable for those who want to put forth the effort.~Mum, who only has parts from 2 other classes so far for the first of her army to run through the quest, and will be chasing other crafters down "real soon now" for other bits. </blockquote>Aww, mum, if I were on your server I'd help you out.  All I guess I need is another lv 80 TS-crazy person who also has all 9 at 80 (assuming I get my last 2 to 80), and we could stand around in Wayfarer's or Teren's switching between all our alts a dozen or so times to get them each a full set of the pieces.  (wow that would cost a lot though! I heard T5 rares are up in the multi-plat range now on the broker!)  At least if I can get Kiana to catch up I can get the piece from her for WW.  And I think I got a tailor lined up to help me tonight, so that will be 5 of 9.  C'mon Nektulos people! get to work on your TS epic questing! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I NEED you! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jacobian21]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm will need to check the broker after work..maybe the 30+ rubies and 45+ rhodium I have in the bank horded for my jeweler and sage will find someone else who can use them..same with the imbuing material..thanks devs, I actually tossed some out last week because I  only keep 2 stacks of anything. Interesting times we live in..and from the description the  'epic cloak"  is for looks only? No real stats to it that would set them apart from the cloaks that are out there?  Well, I guess for me its not even worth doing the quests then.J.C.</blockquote>Well according to Domino's reply to another thread I have going about this, the cloak is not really "epic" and is only a reward for this part of the series.  The actual final reward is supposed to be MUCH better and more useful.  I have yet to see it, but I was told to go check it out on EQTraders.  I'm excited to get home and work on it more!

[Corgidad]

<cite>Jacobian21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>NiamiDenMother wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, enough folks kvetched here in the past pretty much demanding that interdependency be brought back, that, well, we got interdependency returned to us.Sadly, there is no way to please everyone, on this, or on anything else, for that matter.I strongly encourage folks to use the Marketplace area of these forums, and over <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/forumdisplay.php?f=10" target="_blank">on my forums too</a>, to keep track of crafters willing and able to help others with combines on their server.  Especially since crafting channels on each server are split between good and evil, you won't always learn in-channel of folks who can help you (Teren's Grasp is a lovely neutral crafting area, that anyone working on this quest will have access to, due to level 80 requiring the expansion).  It may take a bit to coordinate timing, but it should be doable for those who want to put forth the effort.~Mum, who only has parts from 2 other classes so far for the first of her army to run through the quest, and will be chasing other crafters down "real soon now" for other bits. </blockquote>Aww, mum, if I were on your server I'd help you out.  All I guess I need is another lv 80 TS-crazy person who also has all 9 at 80 (assuming I get my last 2 to 80), and we could stand around in Wayfarer's or Teren's switching between all our alts a dozen or so times to get them each a full set of the pieces.  (wow that would cost a lot though! I heard T5 rares are up in the multi-plat range now on the broker!)  At least if I can get Kiana to catch up I can get the piece from her for WW.  And I think I got a tailor lined up to help me tonight, so that will be 5 of 9.  C'mon Nektulos people! get to work on your TS epic questing! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /> I NEED you! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>A couple dozen?  If done right, the best I can come up is that one person would need to log 8 times and the other would need to log 63 times to get the 81 no-trade items on both users accounts... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />I really wish you were on AB, and I'd be right there with you... I'd even offer to be the 63-logger...!--Corgi

[Bakasen]

<p>when I saw this my jaw dropped and I wondered how in the heck I was gonna get this thing... but I started the bloody quest I was gonna see it through.. So I start trying to trade my solvent for other stuff.. only to find out there are more alchemists than blades of grass on my server... Ok... give up and just start asking how much to buy the stupid things...</p><p> Then a miracle happens and one of the traders set up a crafting raid... invited out everybody who was irked and we finished up about 20 sets of stuff all told between everybody who showed.. It was pretty amazeing and should transfer to other servers as well. Just hit up your channels and pull all the folks who needs stuff to one place and get to crafting.. Teren's is the obvious place for it with it haveing everything a tradeskiller needs on sight. If you've got the faction.</p>

[LivelyHound]

<p>When I got to thi step I thought ah this is gonna be a problem so I checked the chat channels and there were 4 of us (me included) looking for swapping comission stuff, so we set up a group and then searched for others we needed. /who trader 80 ftw!</p><p>In the end I set up a raid of 22 traders (my being the only jeweler on) who had got to this step. We all finished he quests a number of hours later for those who joined at the beggining and we got the cloak server discos for Unrest =)</p><p>My point is this is doable. It an epic quest and should not be easy. It wasnt easy finding all the classes necessary but we persevered and we got it done! And in the process I got to meet a lot of the top / dedicated crafters on my server in person. We all had a blast and everyone reckoned it was one of the best crafting experiences they had had in ages. </p><p>SO for my 2c's ...</p><p>Thanks Domino for this. It was awesome fun! And I love my new purple cloak. The only one so far for my server. (Guilty pleasure @ uniqness for a few more hours I hope)</p>

[katalmach]

<cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When I got to thi step I thought ah this is gonna be a problem so I checked the chat channels and there were 4 of us (me included) looking for swapping comission stuff, so we set up a group and then searched for others we needed. /who trader 80 ftw!</p><p>In the end I set up a raid of 22 traders (my being the only jeweler on) who had got to this step. We all finished he quests a number of hours later for those who joined at the beggining and we got the cloak server discos for Unrest =)</p><p>My point is this is doable. It an epic quest and should not be easy. It wasnt easy finding all the classes necessary but we persevered and we got it done! </p></blockquote><p>Of course it's doable now. The quest just came out, every single level 80 crafter out there did it the day it came out or will in the following week. But what about six months from now? What about a year from now? How easy do you think it'll be for a newly level 80 crafter, a year from now, to find 8 other crafters willing to make the items for him? Most people will already have done them by then - I can pretty much promise you that a year from now, there won't be any raids of tradeskillers amassing to craft each other these updates. Most likely is, the poor newly level 80 will have to ask around in channels for days, maybe weeks, and offer lots of cash for anyone to help him. And THAT is why I think it's a badly designed step of an otherwise really cool quest.</p>

[Lodrelhai]

I can see how it might be a problem for crafters down the line, but for myself, I know unless I'm doing either a timed quest/writ or a guild event, I'm quite happy to drop whatever to make something for someone in need.  Kariah on Crushbone, 80 woodworker, pst!As far as charging 10p, that's highway robbery and one guy I wouldn't make the rod for.  Seemed most of the Crushbone crafters I dealt with were for exchange or fuel cost, with highest asking 20g.  And most people who came to me for rods tipped me at least that much.  Heck, we had people run fuel and common supplies to one girl in Bathezid's Watch who was grinding her faction so she could get the quest (she reimbursed for those).  Overall the tradeskillers I've worked with the past couple days have been wonderfully generous and helpful.Not that I ever want to see interdependency be a requirement of all tradeskilling again, please!  But for a large-scale quest like this, for something really nice by crafters for crafters, I'll live with it.Talk on the lvl 70-79 and lvl 80 channels today was a flood of questions about the TS epic and interest in the rewards.  Also was able to point a couple low adventurer/high crafter people to the TS faction quests, which they had not known about before.Oh, and the actual epic reward?  Mother's got it <a href="http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/article_page.php?article=q27&menustr=060020000000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here</a>, along with a complete walkthrough.

[Thormiel]

<cite>Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Of course it's doable now. The quest just came out, every single level 80 crafter out there did it the day it came out or will in the following week. But what about six months from now? What about a year from now? to ask around in channels for days, maybe weeks, and offer lots of cash for anyone to help him. </p></blockquote>So, in your world there's only one level 80 crafter six months from now or a year from now? Only one level 80 crafter working on this quest at that time?

[Katsi]

<cite>Thormiel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Of course it's doable now. The quest just came out, every single level 80 crafter out there did it the day it came out or will in the following week. But what about six months from now? What about a year from now? to ask around in channels for days, maybe weeks, and offer lots of cash for anyone to help him. </p></blockquote>So, in your world there's only one level 80 crafter six months from now or a year from now? Only one level 80 crafter working on this quest at that time?</blockquote>"in my world" ....Sadly sometimes that is EXACTLY how it feels when I need help.  I know the others are out there, but they sure don't seem to be "in my world"(Oh, and this applies to both adventuring and tradeskilling, for me.  There's a good reason I took Jynx for my main's last name.)- Katsi  (Cerilynn Jynx 61 ranger/50 jeweler on Lucan, with a LONG way to go before Epics. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> )

[MrWolfie]

<cite>NiamiDenMother wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, enough folks kvetched here in the past pretty much demanding that interdependency be brought back, that, well, we got interdependency returned to us.<span style="color: #ff6600;">But, interdependency before it was removed didn't necessarily rely on the commission system. It always allowed tradespeople to be tradespeople.If you needed an item and didn't already have a crafter of the required type (like so many of us do) you could always resort to the broker.</span>Sadly, there is no way to please everyone, on this, or on anything else, for that matter. <span style="color: #ff6600;">Yes, there is.Make the items tradeable.Then those who have all the crafter types can supply their own characters, and those that have a few crafters can source the extra items without *having* to be right next to the other guy at the time the item is created.So what if someone puts them on the broker??People are already charging premiums for their time, attendance and the item. Brokering the items would only ensure a fairer price for those who want to buy them.Also, the commission system is supposed to be a game mechanic to facilitate secure transactions.I don't believe it should be used as a quest mechanic if there's any other viable method.</span></blockquote>

[Qandor]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>NiamiDenMother wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, enough folks kvetched here in the past pretty much demanding that interdependency be brought back, that, well, we got interdependency returned to us.<span style="color: #ff6600;">But, interdependency before it was removed didn't necessarily rely on the commission system. It always allowed tradespeople to be tradespeople.If you needed an item and didn't already have a crafter of the required type (like so many of us do) you could always resort to the broker.</span>Sadly, there is no way to please everyone, on this, or on anything else, for that matter.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Yes, there is.Make the items tradeable.Then those who have all the crafter types can supply their own characters, and those that have a few crafters can source the extra items without *having* to be right next to the other guy at the time the item is created.So what if someone puts them on the broker??People are already charging premiums for their time, attendance and the item. Brokering the items would only ensure a fairer price for those who want to buy them.Also, the commission system is supposed to be a game mechanic to facilitate secure transactions.I don't believe it should be used as a quest mechanic if there's any other viable method.</span></blockquote></blockquote>Exactly. All the items being put into that commission window are freely tradeable, so why is the result "no trade". There was no reason to use the commission system for this and in fact, for the original solstice earring in EQ, the items were freely tradeable. It is a mystery why this is a commission item only. For folks playing at other than primetime, they are pretty much screwed by this system.

[callahan]

The cooperation required for this quest was a lot of fun on CB, and certainly wasn't any price whoring./wave <span class="postbody">KariahReminded me of the frantic Spire building for pre-KoS.I'm just bitter about faction required for new recipes, being an Olde Society crafter, and how crafting may as well be one click now.</span>

[Gorhauth]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">Also, the commission system is supposed to be a game mechanic to facilitate secure transactions.I don't believe it should be used as a quest mechanic if there's any other viable method.</span></blockquote>The commission system was implemented specifically for quests.  Being a secure transaction was a side effect.

[SirDinadan]

<p>Our server had one weaponsmith, and one alchemist, that had done the quest on the first day.  So yeah, it was quite a bottleneck.. but does everyone want the quest reward just handed to them?  I'd certainly rather spend a few hours horse-trading with other classes to get the items I need in exchange for the items I can make than camp a named somewhere.</p><p>It was a new experience, and a fun one, considering how little excitement tradeskillers get in general.  And we all felt like we were working together for each of us.. haven't had that much interpersonal contact ever.</p><p>Now, the part about rare hoarding by the world at large is something of a concern.  But if you're higher adventure level, getting T5 rares isn't really that difficult.  Perhaps a bump in the rare rate for that tier for a lil bit?  <poke> <poke></p>

[eqaddict101]

<cite>callahan44 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The cooperation required for this quest was a lot of fun on CB, and certainly wasn't any price whoring./wave <span class="postbody">KariahReminded me of the frantic Spire building for pre-KoS.I'm just bitter about faction required for new recipes, being an Olde Society crafter, and how crafting may as well be one click now.</span></blockquote>LOL Please don't say that too loud >.< .. On EQlive crafting was baiscly "one click" OMG I lost so much plat from failed Aug combines and GM Armor smithing!! I had Maxed crafting AAs ... Its funny you said that becasue I was just thinking the other day that I love EQ2 crafting casue I have controll over the combine instead of it being all RNG ...

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Grayven@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So yeah, it was quite a bottleneck.. but does everyone want the quest reward just handed to them?  </p></blockquote>More people /= more effort I would rather earn my epic every step of the way by proving how skilled and Master of a craftsman that I am, rather than having a step where you get a bunch of items handed to you from other classes. It would feel more epic to me if either I had to quest all 9 recipes myself and produce them all myself, or if there were a tradeable item from other classes to be gathered that I would then have to refine with a recipe that I had quested for.

[bks6721]

edit...off to start faction grinding so i can get quest ... boo

[Meirril]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>NiamiDenMother wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately, enough folks kvetched here in the past pretty much demanding that interdependency be brought back, that, well, we got interdependency returned to us.<span style="color: #ff6600;">But, interdependency before it was removed didn't necessarily rely on the commission system. It always allowed tradespeople to be tradespeople.If you needed an item and didn't already have a crafter of the required type (like so many of us do) you could always resort to the broker.</span>Sadly, there is no way to please everyone, on this, or on anything else, for that matter.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Yes, there is.Make the items tradeable.Then those who have all the crafter types can supply their own characters, and those that have a few crafters can source the extra items without *having* to be right next to the other guy at the time the item is created.So what if someone puts them on the broker??People are already charging premiums for their time, attendance and the item. Brokering the items would only ensure a fairer price for those who want to buy them.Also, the commission system is supposed to be a game mechanic to facilitate secure transactions.I don't believe it should be used as a quest mechanic if there's any other viable method.</span></blockquote></blockquote>Exactly. All the items being put into that commission window are freely tradeable, so why is the result "no trade". There was no reason to use the commission system for this and in fact, for the original solstice earring in EQ, the items were freely tradeable. It is a mystery why this is a commission item only. For folks playing at other than primetime, they are pretty much screwed by this system.</blockquote><p>Is any portion of this quest difficult other than finding 8 other crafters to make an item for you? No.</p><p>So you want to dumb down the only difficult portion of this quest? Why? So you won't have the epic on day 1 or day 2 like people that play during prime times. I'm sure if you keep looking at your server forum for lists of epic crafters and keep asking in the crafting and 80's channel (plus offer your own services) you'll find people willing to help you. I dare say you might even ask your friends for help. You do bother to talk to other people in game, right? Maybe some of them craft? If your arn't talking to anybody else...why are you here? It is a multi-player game. The people buying your stuff...you know customers...their people. Get to know them. It will be fun! Honest.</p><p>Yeah, getting 9 characters through an epic quest will be difficult and time consuming. If you make some friends along the way I'm sure they won't have problems doing 9 combines for you. Maybe not all at once, but then again your not going to get the faction for all 9 in one day are you?</p><p>And the longer this quest is along, the more people that will be able to craft this for you. While I don't normally do combines for free (if your a real newbie to the game, I'll make you bring me a stack of roots. On principle.) I'd do this one for free. Why? Because you've taken the time to show that you care about crafting. I respect that. For everybody that did a combine for me that didn't need a combine in return, I tipped them a plat. Every one of them said are you serious and most of them wanted to give me the money back. They never asked for payment. I think they would of done it for fuel cost. I gave them the coin because I apreciate that they offered their time. And I value their time and generosity as much as my own. I think you'll find more crafters that have done this quest like myself and the others that helped me than people that demand even 1p for a combine. </p><p>I look at my earring and cloak and I see something that inspires me. It isn't a symbol of my crafting prowess, it is a symbol of community. Thank you Domino.</p>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">Also, the commission system is supposed to be a game mechanic to facilitate secure transactions.I don't believe it should be used as a quest mechanic if there's any other viable method.</span></blockquote>The commission system was implemented specifically for quests.  Being a secure transaction was a side effect.</blockquote>Whatever. It's not there to screw over people who already have 9 crafters on their account.

[katalmach]

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Is any portion of this quest difficult other than finding 8 other crafters to make an item for you? No.</p><p>So you want to dumb down the only difficult portion of this quest? Why? So you won't have the epic on day 1 or day 2 like people that play during prime times. I'm sure if you keep looking at your server forum for lists of epic crafters and keep asking in the crafting and 80's channel (plus offer your own services) you'll find people willing to help you. I dare say you might even ask your friends for help. You do bother to talk to other people in game, right? Maybe some of them craft? If your arn't talking to anybody else...why are you here? It is a multi-player game. The people buying your stuff...you know customers...their people. Get to know them. It will be fun! Honest.</p><p>Yeah, getting 9 characters through an epic quest will be difficult and time consuming. If you make some friends along the way I'm sure they won't have problems doing 9 combines for you. Maybe not all at once, but then again your not going to get the faction for all 9 in one day are you?</p><p>And the longer this quest is along, the more people that will be able to craft this for you. While I don't normally do combines for free (if your a real newbie to the game, I'll make you bring me a stack of roots. On principle.) I'd do this one for free. Why? Because you've taken the time to show that you care about crafting. I respect that. For everybody that did a combine for me that didn't need a combine in return, I tipped them a plat. Every one of them said are you serious and most of them wanted to give me the money back. They never asked for payment. I think they would of done it for fuel cost. I gave them the coin because I apreciate that they offered their time. And I value their time and generosity as much as my own. I think you'll find more crafters that have done this quest like myself and the others that helped me than people that demand even 1p for a combine. </p><p>I look at my earring and cloak and I see something that inspires me. It isn't a symbol of my crafting prowess, it is a symbol of community. Thank you Domino.</p></blockquote><p>So you are in favour of using artificial shortcuts to making a quest more difficult, rather than just, oh I don't know, designing a difficult and interesting quest? Making me seek out 8 other crafters is an artificial bottleneck in the same vein as named camping, making clicky updates take forever to respawn, lock-outs and staggered release of quest steps (a la SoD). </p><p>Oh, and no, I don't bother talking to other people in this game. It is a multi-player game, yes, which is great because that means I can play it with my RL friends. I honestly do not care about talking to my customers - it's more of a hassle than anything else (that said, I am a very friendly crafter when sought out, and ALWAYS make combines for free, and I always help out when needed). However, while I am interested in helping others, I am not interested in talking others into helping me - that's why I made my crafters in the first place, so that I could be independent (and also helpful to others).</p><p>My tradeskill epic should be a sign of my epicness, my skill at crafting. It should not be a sign of me being able to nag 8 other people into doing something for me - which is what it is now, you even admit it when you say that none of the other steps are difficult. And as for community, honestly, who cares? Most of the people I saw with the epics are people that are on my ignore list. It certainly won't bring me any closer to them, having to fork over cash to ignorees just to have them make a combine for me. They'll go straight back onto ignore after it. It's supposed to be a tradeskill epic, not a happy-cuddly-let's-all-be-friends-and-hold-hands epic (if it was, I wouldn't even have bothered, but it IS a tradeskill epic with a cloak specifically made for my crafter, and therefore I do think that MY CRAFTER should be able to get it). I do think the items should be made tradable. If they were, I would've been done with the quest by now (there was an epic crafting raid going on on my server the other night - unfortunately for me, they held it in Danak, where I am KoS. Because I had to be there, I couldn't get my updates. If the items had been tradable, I could've gotten them.).</p><p> I look at the earring, cloak and title on other players, and the unfinished quest in my journal, and log out. I don't think it's fair that my crafters (who are seriously dedicated, with max faction and whathaveyou) can't get their epic, whereas CyberslutX, who spends most of her (well, not necessarily HER) time flirting in the chat channels, already has hers. While yes, I do think the community on my server is normally quite good, but this forced commission step has got me pretty upset.</p>

[Whilhelmina]

<p>The difficult part for me was reaching the -20 000 faction for bathezid.</p><p>The difficult part for my alts will be to reach -20 000 faction for Bathezid AND harvest in steamfont amongst big red aggro mobs. </p><p>I'm not the friendly type. I don't like to interract with others, but doing this quest and being the raid leader of our final stage was one of the best times I had in this game. It's fun. Really. I was wis dedicated crafters, some from my own guild, others I didn't know prior to that time. We all had a lot of fun, even our poor Weaponsmith that had to craft 18 times his combine in a row. But we all loved it, loved the cloak, loved the earing, loved the title. And now we're all in touch, ready to help others achieve our goal. It's an Epic quest, yes. For Epic quests, you need to group. Grouping as a crafter is somewhat alien but it IS nice.</p><p>(by the way, the list of crafters for storms server is in the french board)</p>

[Gorhauth]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">Also, the commission system is supposed to be a game mechanic to facilitate secure transactions.I don't believe it should be used as a quest mechanic if there's any other viable method.</span></blockquote>The commission system was implemented specifically for quests.  Being a secure transaction was a side effect.</blockquote>Whatever. It's not there to screw over people who already have 9 crafters on their account.</blockquote>And this is why interdependency will never work.  People whine to have it added, then they whine more when they realize it still applies to them, even if they think they are God's gift to crafting.

[quamdar]

i personally find this fun.  i bet after this there is ZERO chance at getting some kind of tradeskill raids in game, too many people complain when they have to find 8 other people to do 1 combine each for them.  i honestly wish these quests were quite a bit harder than they are, my adventure class's epic is too easy too.  kinda boring to be able to get both in under a week <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gorhauth]

<cite>quamdar wrote:</cite><blockquote> i honestly wish these quests were quite a bit harder than they are, my adventure class's epic is too easy too.  kinda boring to be able to get both in under a week <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Feel free to do the Defiler epic if you think they are too easy.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gorhauth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">Also, the commission system is supposed to be a game mechanic to facilitate secure transactions.I don't believe it should be used as a quest mechanic if there's any other viable method.</span></blockquote>The commission system was implemented specifically for quests.  Being a secure transaction was a side effect.</blockquote>Whatever. It's not there to screw over people who already have 9 crafters on their account.</blockquote>And this is why interdependency will never work.  People whine to have it added, then they whine more when they realize it still applies to them, even if they think they are God's gift to crafting.</blockquote>This isn't interdependency.It's forced cameraderie.Which, in a few months, will be forgotten.Anyone who wants to do this quest then will have to scour their server for anyone willing to take thime out to help a stranger (without wanting some plat up front).I forsee this requirement being removed in about six months' time.Remind me to say "I told you so".

[Domino]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This isn't interdependency.It's forced cameraderie.Which, in a few months, will be forgotten.Anyone who wants to do this quest then will have to scour their server for anyone willing to take thime out to help a stranger (without wanting some plat up front).I forsee this requirement being removed in about six months' time.Remind me to say "I told you so".</blockquote>I'll take that bet.  What do I win if you're wrong?  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't think it will be a huge problem to find your 8 crafters down the line, nor do I think they will charge huge fees (well, some will because some are always jerks -- but many will not).  It may take a little big longer to gather the 8 items since people won't be standing around just to make them, but I think there will be plenty of people willing and able to make them when asked.  In fact I could probably name a couple dozen crafters on my own server that I already know I will be able to ask if I level up another alt to do the quest 6 months or a year down the line.  I wouldn't have designed the quest this way if I didn't believe this was true.  But we will see in 6 months (assuming US immigration decide to renew my visa and I'm still here...)!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[AratornCalahn]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This isn't interdependency.It's forced cameraderie.Which, in a few months, will be forgotten.Anyone who wants to do this quest then will have to scour their server for anyone willing to take thime out to help a stranger (without wanting some plat up front).I forsee this requirement being removed in about six months' time.Remind me to say "I told you so".</blockquote>I'll take that bet.  What do I win if you're wrong?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />I don't think it will be a huge problem to find your 8 crafters down the line, nor do I think they will charge huge fees (well, some will because some are always jerks -- but many will not).  It may take a little big longer to gather the 8 items since people won't be standing around just to make them, but I think there will be plenty of people willing and able to make them when asked.  In fact I could probably name a couple dozen crafters on my own server that I already know I will be able to ask if I level up another alt to do the quest 6 months or a year down the line.  I wouldn't have designed the quest this way if I didn't believe this was true.  But we will see in 6 months (assuming US immigration decide to renew my visa and I'm still here...)!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Maybe someone in charge in that particular area of immigration is a EQ2 player and has 9 crafters on the same account and feeling bitter?

[Domino]

<cite>AratornCalahn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Maybe someone in charge in that particular area of immigration is a EQ2 player and has 9 crafters on the same account and feeling bitter?</blockquote>Heheh ... let's hope not!  But if so, I heard rumours Beghn's looking for a job.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[KerowynnKaotic]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>AratornCalahn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Maybe someone in charge in that particular area of immigration is a EQ2 player and has 9 crafters on the same account and feeling bitter?</blockquote>Heheh ... let's hope not!  But if so, I heard rumours Beghn's looking for a job.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>OUCH!  A solid hit, I think ..  lol. </p><p>Well, if you need people to personally attest to whether or not you are really needed here in the US .. try to schedule a personal interview around the time of the FF and where ever it's being held this year and then ask for volunteers from the FF to be your witnesses.   *laugh*</p><p>I've rather enjoyed this quest.  I had a few stumbling steps along the way but otherwise totally enjoyed it, even when I was cursing Domino for the NO Zone books/pieces for the Scholar quest.  I've only ran into one "grumpy-gus" but as he's always been a "grumpy-gus" and always will be, I truthfully wasn't surprised, annoyed but not surprised.   As Domino says there will always be Jerks.  Luckly for most people the Jerks are out-weighed by the dozens of other people that are genuinely happy to help out for this quest. </p><p>I, myself, have camped back and forth a few times to my Alchemist & Provisoner to help someone out with their parts.   Working on getting my Sage the levels and factions to do her next.  This quest has given me that little extra push to actually level her as my Adventurers aren't going to be T8 for some time so I have been dragging my feet on most of my crafters.   /shrug.   </p>

[Calthine]

<cite>Kaisha@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>AratornCalahn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Maybe someone in charge in that particular area of immigration is a EQ2 player and has 9 crafters on the same account and feeling bitter?</blockquote>Heheh ... let's hope not!  But if so, I heard rumours Beghn's looking for a job.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>OUCH!  A solid hit, I think ..  lol. </p><p>Well, if you need people to personally attest to whether or not you are really needed here in the US .. try to schedule a personal interview around the time of the FF and where ever it's being held this year and then ask for volunteers from the FF to be your witnesses.   *laugh*</p></blockquote>I can just see the queue...  complete with protest style signs declaring our love of Domino, and chants.

[ashen1973]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><b></b>This isn't interdependency.It's forced cameraderie.Which, in a few months, will be forgotten.Anyone who wants to do this quest then will have to scour their server for anyone willing to take thime out to help a stranger (without wanting some plat up front).I forsee this requirement being removed in about six months' time.Remind me to say "I told you so".</blockquote><p>why so negative about this quest, that it seems 99% of people that have completed it really enjoyed doing.</p><p>I see we play on the same server. In all my time here I have never struggled to find a crafter to make any item i needed, and at a reasonable rate.</p><p>I know, i for one will always make the item for anyone that asks and at the same rate I charge for any craft I do, fuel cost + whatever the customer wants to tip. And i know there are plenty of other crafters on our server that will happily do the same.</p><p>It may have been 'forced cameraderie' for you, but for most of us, it was an enjoyable rare event for crafters to come together to achieve something.</p><p>Where you there for the building of the griffon towers or the spires? this was another example of people working together. I was involved in both these events, and lost count of the amount of people that passed fuels around to strangers or obtained components for them.</p><p>Its events like these that show we are a great community as a whole and not everyone is as insular and mean spirit as some may have us think.</p>

[bks6721]

I was dreading the Great Bottleneck as I finally got to that part of the quest.Within 15 minutes I had my first 4 updates.   The hardest class to find was a weaponsmith, but I had that too within the hour.Great Quest.    I went from -40k faction with BW to Master Provisioner with a nice robe in about 10 hrs.

[Raislisa]

<p>I agree that it is a good quest upto the commissioning part. This has annoyed me, what has getting 8 other pieces from other crafters got to do with being a Master Provisioner, master trader maybe. </p><p>I would rather have had to get all three ROK factions, and have a 3 special recipes from each for the class to turn in.</p><p>I believe all characters on an account are seperate bodies (we just can't log them in together) and therefore should have been able to make the items for each other.</p>

[illaria]

<p >I had a great time doing the epic quest series on my carpenter. I did the initial BW faction quest (New Lands, New Profits) with a level 28 dirge. I did spend some time thinking angry words at Domino Dev when I kept getting one shotted on my way up the hill but it seemed like a huge accomplishment when I finally was not agro to the beasties there. When the epic quests where released I didn’t have the required faction but I did enough writs the first night.</p> <p > </p> <p >I had no problem running around zones with beasties that conned orange or red to me. I did have a bit of a bottleneck on the final quest as my crafting raid could not find a tailor who could make our robe. Once I did finish I have made several picnic baskets for other crafters at cost (with the occasional one plat tip). They either came to me or I met them on the Sinking Sands docks. I personally liked the interdependency of this quest and hope that someday we can do a fabled version of the epic quest like the adventurers : D </p>

[pebyr]

well ebon clusters are 6p and climbing on my server.  Thank god for the dfc armor, or t5 fighters would be hosed.  With all the prices on t5 rares skyrocketing, i pity the first time player who wants t5 mastercrafted.  At least I dont think the pelts or roots have climbed.

[Verky]

Crafters on Crushbone have been super fantastic. Crafters who are able to make the items often log on, spend 30 minutes to an hour in Teren's Grasp advertising they are making the TS Epic items. No one is charging anyone anything but fuel costs. People are all being very nice and taking the time out to help their fellow crafters. I find this attitude so refreshing. Of course we are back to business undercutting everyone the very next minute. But Hey, its been fun so far.

[ashen1973]

<cite>pebyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>well ebon clusters are 6p and climbing on my server.  Thank god for the dfc armor, or t5 fighters would be hosed.  With all the prices on t5 rares skyrocketing, i pity the first time player who wants t5 mastercrafted.  At least I dont think the pelts or roots have climbed.</blockquote><p>the price of ebon and the other required items did shoot up on my server (ebon up for just under 1pp a piece to about 6pp), but has now settled back down to usual prices.</p><p>Also, Hidebound pelts shot up to 12pp at one point (these are used for the new mannequins) , but they have also dropped to the usual 2-3pp price.</p><p>A lot of this was caused by the re-sellers trying to exploit the demand, buying up the cheaper items and reselling them.</p><p>Although, one thing that did make me smile and have a 'you deserved that' thought was the player on my server that bought up all the smoldering material on the broker (usually <1g each) and re-proced them all at 6g. He had 400 for sale Thursday evening.</p><p>Yesterday, he still had the vast majority of them up for sale at 2g, and had been undercut by many more people at the normal rate.</p><p>Apart from these resellers (who are thankfully in the minority), everyone on Splitpaw has been really great. With most of the crafters that I have had help from not requiring any more than the rare resource. And I can see this continuing. As I have posted before, anyone I can help on Splitpaw, just bring me the rare and the fuel cost and i'll be more than happy to help <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll take that bet.  What do I win if you're wrong?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Never say never.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>This isn't interdependency.It's forced cameraderie.Which, in a few months, will be forgotten.Anyone who wants to do this quest then will have to scour their server for anyone willing to take thime out to help a stranger (without wanting some plat up front).I forsee this requirement being removed in about six months' time.Remind me to say "I told you so".</blockquote><p>why so negative about this quest, that it seems 99% of people that have completed it really enjoyed doing.<span style="color: #ff6600;">When there's only ONE way to achieve something in a game, I see that as being unnecessarily restrictive. I don't like being held back by mechanics.I also know this will lose its flavour over time, and will then become more difficult and expensive to finish.There's LOADS of great content in EQ2 that is now underutilised because it is no longer flavour of the month.IMO, that's bad design. It may have been funky and popular when it came out, but if it doesn't stand the test of time...ultimately, it's a waste of everything good that went into it.</span></p><p>I know, i for one will always make the item for anyone that asks and at the same rate I charge for any craft I do, fuel cost + whatever the customer wants to tip. And i know there are plenty of other crafters on our server that will happily do the same.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Same here. I made a T8 adornment only yesterday for a couple of gold. But, it seems, you and I are the exception to the rule. And even then, it's only if someone catches me while I'm in zone and with spare time. So that's the reality: so long as the crafter isn't on his way someplace else and they're in the same zone, you might get lucky. That's what it will be like two/four/six months from now, when the casual players start hitting 80.</span></p><p>Where you there for the building of the griffon towers or the spires? this was another example of people working together. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=150&topic_id=406146�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...46�</a>My partner and I were the ONLY ones working at Bone Lake. Swapping crafters in and out, and never saw another person. That station BELONGS to us! It should have a ****ing plaque on it!</span></p><p>Its events like these that show we are a great community as a whole and not everyone is as insular and mean spirit as some may have us think.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Being insular is a choice that needs to be addressed. It's not an "evil" thing to want to stick with ones RL friends in an MMO.If I were insular, it's precisely because I'm not interested in "community". To have it rammed down my throat to become a "master crafter" is a slap in the face for all the hard work I put into my character. As one poster put it, it's a reward for those people who like to flirt in chat channels rather than a serious quest and mark of achievement for crafters.Not only that, but anything I achieve in game it is that much more rewarding because I didn't need the help of anyone else to do it. When was the last time you duoed Cyenadros? Now that was FUN!!No hanging around waiting for 10 other people to be ready, for them to get to the place without dying, no asinine Ratonga scouts with itchy feet who can't keep their mouths shut. Just two (no raid equipment) against a monster and a twenty minute battle.</span></p></blockquote>

[ashen1973]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>This isn't interdependency.It's forced cameraderie.Which, in a few months, will be forgotten.Anyone who wants to do this quest then will have to scour their server for anyone willing to take thime out to help a stranger (without wanting some plat up front).I forsee this requirement being removed in about six months' time.Remind me to say "I told you so".</blockquote><p>why so negative about this quest, that it seems 99% of people that have completed it really enjoyed doing.<span style="color: #ff6600;">When there's only ONE way to achieve something in a game, I see that as being unnecessarily restrictive. I don't like being held back by mechanics.I also know this will lose its flavour over time, and will then become more difficult and expensive to finish.There's LOADS of great content in EQ2 that is now underutilised because it is no longer flavour of the month.IMO, that's bad design. It may have been funky and popular when it came out, but if it doesn't stand the test of time...ultimately, it's a waste of everything good that went into it.</span></p><p>I know, i for one will always make the item for anyone that asks and at the same rate I charge for any craft I do, fuel cost + whatever the customer wants to tip. And i know there are plenty of other crafters on our server that will happily do the same.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Same here. I made a T8 adornment only yesterday for a couple of gold. But, it seems, you and I are the exception to the rule. And even then, it's only if someone catches me while I'm in zone and with spare time. So that's the reality: so long as the crafter isn't on his way someplace else and they're in the same zone, you might get lucky. That's what it will be like two/four/six months from now, when the casual players start hitting 80.</span></p><p>Where you there for the building of the griffon towers or the spires? this was another example of people working together. <span style="color: #ff6600;"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=150&topic_id=406146�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...46�</a>My partner and I were the ONLY ones working at Bone Lake. Swapping crafters in and out, and never saw another person. That station BELONGS to us! It should have a ****ing plaque on it!</span></p><p>Its events like these that show we are a great community as a whole and not everyone is as insular and mean spirit as some may have us think.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Being insular is a choice that needs to be addressed. It's not an "evil" thing to want to stick with ones RL friends in an MMO.If I were insular, it's precisely because I'm not interested in "community". To have it rammed down my throat to become a "master crafter" is a slap in the face for all the hard work I put into my character. As one poster put it, it's a reward for those people who like to flirt in chat channels rather than a serious quest and mark of achievement for crafters.Not only that, but anything I achieve in game it is that much more rewarding because I didn't need the help of anyone else to do it. When was the last time you duoed Cyenadros? Now that was FUN!!No hanging around waiting for 10 other people to be ready, for them to get to the place without dying, no asinine Ratonga scouts with itchy feet who can't keep their mouths shut. Just two (no raid equipment) against a monster and a twenty minute battle.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>There are agreat, great many things in this gamer that only have one way to complete them, would u like all of these changed to?</p><p>Im all for content that can be solo'd or duo'd, i do a huge amount of duoing with my wife and i find it highly enjoyable. But, we have to realise that just because we choose to play in a certain way, doesnt mean that we are entitled to achieve everything. It goes back to the old argument of 'just because i choose not to group with 23 other people, why should i not have access to the best fabled gear?'</p><p>I do understand the sense of achievement you get from completing hard content as a duo, one of my favourite things to do is to see just how hard a mob i can solo with my wiz, and you would be very surprised just what can be achieved with a little effort and persaverance.</p><p>As much as I enjoy this, I also enjoy the very different aspect of completing something as part of a greater-whole, working together with others to achieve something that couldnt be achieved solo.</p><p>I really enjoyed this quest, and the working with others was a fun part. I really dont see getting the updates for this in the future being difficult at all. There will be a growing number of lvl 80 crafters as time goes on, and i would guess most would want this quest done.</p><p>As I said before, in all the time I have played on this server, even back in the days of true inter-dependancy (which i would hate to see the return of btw), I have never had a problem finding a crafter to help me and always at a reasonable rate. There are a lot more helpful people out there than you seem to think. By the way u describe your playstyle, as trying to be as self-sufficient as possible, i would guess you rarely try and find someone else to help, which is probably why you dont realise the help is out there.</p><p>There will always be under-utilised content, as the game grows and levels rise, the lower level areas will become less used. This is a common factor to almost all MMO's. I dont think this means that the content is wasted. As long as people enjoy it for a time, even if its only a year between expansions, then it was content worth having.</p><p>If you are not interested in 'community' you did have a choice, dont do the quest. You dont have to have that master crafter title, you dont need the cloak, the earring isnt a 'must have'. You can still craft just as well without any of them. No-one forced you to go out and interact with others.</p><p>But if you do want the nicer items, you do have to put a little more effort into it. What is the alternative? If the items for the quest where no-trade, you pop to the broker and buy them, or log an alt and make them, either way, its just a matter of crafting a few more items, wheres the challenge or fun there??</p><p>When the griffon towers where being made, i started at the nek dock station, there where a whole bunch of us there helping each other and getting it done. We then moved, as a group, on to nmarrs and commonlands, by the time we got to bone lake, it was done, by you it seems. Now great that you did that, but you made the choice to hit that tower on your own, and bypass the groups working on the others. because you chose not to participate in the community there, doesnt mean it didnt happen.</p><p>Overall, I really believe that this quest is a roaring success and wil continue to be so. And it seems the vast majority of people thathave done it agree. There will always be those that would like things done differently, but you cant please all of the people all of the time, just aim to please as many as possible.</p><p>I read in another of your post that you have cancelled your account already. I wish you well in whatever you decide to play after EQ2, i;ve tried many, and none come close for me. But its the community that make it, which you seem not to want to be a part of, so i would guess you will find somewhere that you are happy.</p><p>Have you tried oblivion, perfect world for the insular and self-sufficient.</p>

[VolgaDark]

<p>I have 7 crafters and am rather shy when it comes to approaching strangers in game and asking for anything .... (yes I solo a lot coz if it too lol)</p><p>So I guess I should be bitter that I can't do it all myself without having to depend on anyone else. Well, I'm not. I love the quest the way it is and really don't believe I will have an impossible time with any of my alts 6 months or so from now trying to complete their's.  I may not be able to finish it as fast as I did with my main, thanks to all the awesome crafters on Najena. It may take me weeks or even longer when my alts are ready, but I don't see it as quest-breaker or anything. Norrath ain't gonna stop turning just coz one of my twinks ain't got her cloak yet.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And as for new player's, I really believe if they ask for help in proper channels they will get it. I know I will never mind helping others. </p><p>Just my 2cp worth ... </p>

[Gorhauth]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span style="color: #ff6600;">If I were insular, it's precisely because I'm not interested in "community". To have it rammed down my throat to become a "master crafter" is a slap in the face for all the hard work I put into my character. As one poster put it, it's a reward for those people who like to flirt in chat channels rather than a serious quest and mark of achievement for crafters.</span></blockquote>It isn't limited to people who aren't insular.  It definitely isn't a reward for flirting in chat.  I am not a member of any chat channels except the ones for my guild.  I find the others beyond distasteful.  I joined the level channel to see if anybody would help with the Pudding combines I needed.  There were no lack of offers, even though I rarely interacted with any of them - and never in a public channel.I think it is more of a reward for people who aren't complete [censored] to others.  Once people know your bubbly and cheerful attitude, it doesn't surprise me that you would have a hard time getting help with anything.

[Chooba]

<p>  Not sure if anyone else is experiencing this but, we seem to have a shortage of weaponsmiths on Nektulos. I got a late start on this quest due to the brain melting faction grind with Bathezid's but so far have no major complaints. I rather enjoyed smoking out the bee-hive and throwing books around the library. Anyhow, if anyone from Nek is reading this, i still need WW, WS, and Prov. i'll be spending most of the week at Terens Grasp to help out anyone else who needs the Solvent (and no, i'm not going to charge anyone out of respect for the other crafters who are kind enough to help out).</p>

[Meunayil]

<cite>Smirkey_of_Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I honestly could understand reimbursement for fuel costs if there are any, and a few gold for time, but that just takes the cake.  As for me, my wife and I have all 9 crafting classes on the Nek server and they're all level 70 and up.  Once they're all 80 I will be going through this routine with all of them.  Any toon active at those crafting stations or camped there will be available for anyone who needs help, if they would be so kind as to return the favor if needed.</blockquote>Nice to see my GF and I aren't the only crafting geeks on Nek server.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  We have all 9 at level 80 and 6 after this past weekend have their cloaks.  This weekend it was pretty easy to get as many formed up in TG to help each other.  I can say however as more finish and get their cloaks the harder it may be to get yours.  You all know the "I got mine already" mentality of quite a few people.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Meunayil]

<cite>Chooba@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  Not sure if anyone else is experiencing this but, we seem to have a shortage of weaponsmiths on Nektulos. I got a late start on this quest due to the brain melting faction grind with Bathezid's but so far have no major complaints. I rather enjoyed smoking out the bee-hive and throwing books around the library. Anyhow, if anyone from Nek is reading this, i still need WW, WS, and Prov. i'll be spending most of the week at Terens Grasp to help out anyone else who needs the Solvent (and no, i'm not going to charge anyone out of respect for the other crafters who are kind enough to help out).</p></blockquote>One of the 4 I personally finished was a a weaponsmith ... just look me up if you still need help.  I can be found easy enough usually.  /who all crafters  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Crafters R Us where all your crafting needs are fulfilled  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Saev]

<cite>Kesugeo@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chooba@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  Not sure if anyone else is experiencing this but, we seem to have a shortage of weaponsmiths on Nektulos. I got a late start on this quest due to the brain melting faction grind with Bathezid's but so far have no major complaints. I rather enjoyed smoking out the bee-hive and throwing books around the library. Anyhow, if anyone from Nek is reading this, i still need WW, WS, and Prov. i'll be spending most of the week at Terens Grasp to help out anyone else who needs the Solvent (and no, i'm not going to charge anyone out of respect for the other crafters who are kind enough to help out).</p></blockquote>One of the 4 I personally finished was a a weaponsmith ... just look me up if you still need help.  I can be found easy enough usually.  /who all crafters  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Crafters R Us where all your crafting needs are fulfilled  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>/wave Kesugeo (from Master Provisioner Bammur)</p><p>I too am pretty insular and tend to stick with my guild or solo, but getting together for this quest was a lot of fun. I have 7 more levels to go on my WS, and then I hope the to repeat the good times. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>*Edit: Forgot to add, if you still need provisioner Chooba, look for Bammur or Toksik.</p>

[CelandineStar]

<p>Wow, I was really surprised to read the responses here.  FWIW, this was the most fun I've had in game in a long time.  I started a crafting group Sunday morning and the crafters trickled in... after a while we had all nine classes and then new crafters started swapping out as others finished.  I'm glad the items have to be comissioned, it would definitely have been lame to just buy them off the broker, and would have cost me a lot more because I'm sure folks would have price gouged.  Everyone in our "raid" paid fuel costs and no one asked for more than that (though some tipped).  I also made mirrors at cost for anyone who worked on the quest with us, and so did a few others.  Good times were had in Teren's Grasp by all!</p><p>The only real feedback I would have is 2 Ebons needed but no pelt?  /cry... this is encouraging those dens to stay up again in Feerrott while people strip mine for the Ebon.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Other than that, I love the cloaks, and I think the rewards are lovely and fitting.  IMO this kind of interdependency is wonderful... you don't have to do the quest if talking to other people bothers you so much.  I'm hardly CyberslutX, thanks, but I got my first crafter through in a little less than 2 hours, start to finish.  It's hardly impossible (though I agree that the lack of Weaponsmiths is frustrating... please give them more shiny things so people will want to level them up!!)</p><p>Also, if you're on Mistmoore, send me a tell and I'll be happy to make the Carpenter/Alchemist item at cost for you... and can probably recommend a few other crafters to pester if you still need other items /evil grin.  The items can be made by people who have finished, btw, for those of you who think it will be impossible to complete 6 months from now.  By then we'll have a whole army of crafters done, and if anything it should be easier.</p>

[Wallzak]

I know I'm going to get glared at...Got to the crafting stage at 9 pm last night... by 10:30 I had all but one. At one point we had night people in "raid" running around Teren's grasp crafting stuff. The one thing I'm really grateful for is you don't need all the crafters together at the same time at the same place (like a real raid), that would just suck.That said... if I'm going to ask someone to come up to craft an item then I will pay them well for their time.Supply and demand... sigh... I hear you... although I got lucky, lots of supply so the most I paid was just over a plat, I also had several rares stored from a while ago.

[Chooba]

  Great, i'll look for both of you tonight. Like I said earlier too, I'll be at Terens Grasp at least a few hours a night all week to help anyone else get their Solvent. Will always be happy to come help if i'm not there as well, just send me a tell. (I might be on my Monk too - Curinai)

[Meirril]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaisha@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>AratornCalahn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Maybe someone in charge in that particular area of immigration is a EQ2 player and has 9 crafters on the same account and feeling bitter?</blockquote>Heheh ... let's hope not!  But if so, I heard rumours Beghn's looking for a job.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>OUCH!  A solid hit, I think ..  lol. </p><p>Well, if you need people to personally attest to whether or not you are really needed here in the US .. try to schedule a personal interview around the time of the FF and where ever it's being held this year and then ask for volunteers from the FF to be your witnesses.   *laugh*</p></blockquote>I can just see the queue...  complete with protest style signs declaring our love of Domino, and chants. </blockquote>Or the offers of marriage to keep her in the country...

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>If you are not interested in 'community' you did have a choice, dont do the quest. You dont have to have that master crafter title, you dont need the cloak, the earring isnt a 'must have'. You can still craft just as well without any of them. No-one forced you to go out and interact with others.</p><p>But if you do want the nicer items, you do have to put a little more effort into it. What is the alternative? If the items for the quest where no-trade, you pop to the broker and buy them, or log an alt and make them, either way, its just a matter of crafting a few more items, wheres the challenge or fun there??</p></blockquote>The part that bothers me about all this is how is requiring items from 8 other classes displaying your own crafting talent? I don't think the problem is with effort, but where the effort is coming from. Gathering 8 items from 8 other people isn't all that challenging, anymore than logging on alts to get the items would be, but getting 8 items from 8 other people is somehow more "effort"? I'm not seeing it. I would rather have to do something that displayed my crafting prowess at every step than have a "gimme" sort of step where things are just handed to me. An artificial limitation on getting these rewards based on the definition of effort being more people is faulty logic.

[ashen1973]

<cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>If you are not interested in 'community' you did have a choice, dont do the quest. You dont have to have that master crafter title, you dont need the cloak, the earring isnt a 'must have'. You can still craft just as well without any of them. No-one forced you to go out and interact with others.</p><p>But if you do want the nicer items, you do have to put a little more effort into it. What is the alternative? If the items for the quest where no-trade, you pop to the broker and buy them, or log an alt and make them, either way, its just a matter of crafting a few more items, wheres the challenge or fun there??</p></blockquote>The part that bothers me about all this is how is requiring items from 8 other classes displaying your own crafting talent? I don't think the problem is with effort, but where the effort is coming from. Gathering 8 items from 8 other people isn't all that challenging, anymore than logging on alts to get the items would be, but getting 8 items from 8 other people is somehow more "effort"? I'm not seeing it. I would rather have to do something that displayed my crafting prowess at every step than have a "gimme" sort of step where things are just handed to me. An artificial limitation on getting these rewards based on the definition of effort being more people is faulty logic. </blockquote><p>To me it seems totally logical.</p><p>To me, being a Master of a crafting art, is not just being able to make the hardest items. </p><p>During this quest you have -</p><p>Already crafted to the highest level you can obtain (Level 80)</p><p>Created high- quality items (the 20 items crafted in Bathezids, or even gaining the faction required for those non-adventurers) for Bathezids watch in order to gain trust and access to information that allows you to embark upon your journey.</p><p>Shown you are willing to take huge personal risks to obtain your master title (Sneaking around a dungeon containing creatures extremely more powerfull than you)</p><p>Crafted an item of huge complexity (the level 100 item you need to craft. I know that this was not exactly a difficult step but discussion on the difficulty of combines is something for another thread)</p><p>Shown you have the ability to form a business relationship with other crafters in order to obtain items you could not make yourself.</p><p>I would not normally compare what we do in EQ2 to real-life (we are playing a fantasy game after all) but...</p><p>Would just being able to make the best items put you at the top of a real-life creative proffession? Or would you not have to form relationships with others to be a true 'master'? No one person can create every item they require, everyone that creates items for a market needs to form relationships wether with customers, wholesalers, re-sellers, advertisers even with the competition.</p><p>Would a master artisan, who required an item made by another, have the ability to kneel down, close their eyes for 20 seconds and transform into another person? (mind you, I know I would love that ability at some times <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />)</p><p>It seems the only people who have not enjoyed this part of the quest are those that have multiple level 80 crafters on the same account and are put out by not being able to craft the items for themselves.</p><p>I myself have multiple crafters on my account, but had no problem with finding others to make items for this quest.</p><p>I still say that , even in months to come, it will not be difficult to get others to help you with thios quest. It just takes the effort of looking and asking.</p><p> Is it more or less effort to stand at a workstation and hit a combinatiopn of 3 buttons 10-15 times or to spend time using the character search tools or chat-channels in game to find someone else to push those buttons?</p><p>All this said, I have read many posts praising Domino and the devs on the implementation of a fun quest and a very small amount of people who didnt seem to enjoy it.</p><p>Those that have posted negative comments dont seem to have offered any alternative ideas.</p>

[Poetelia]

<cite>Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When I got to thi step I thought ah this is gonna be a problem so I checked the chat channels and there were 4 of us (me included) looking for swapping comission stuff, so we set up a group and then searched for others we needed. /who trader 80 ftw!</p><p>In the end I set up a raid of 22 traders (my being the only jeweler on) who had got to this step. We all finished he quests a number of hours later for those who joined at the beggining and we got the cloak server discos for Unrest =)</p><p>My point is this is doable. It an epic quest and should not be easy. It wasnt easy finding all the classes necessary but we persevered and we got it done! </p></blockquote><p>Of course it's doable now. The quest just came out, every single level 80 crafter out there did it the day it came out or will in the following week. But what about six months from now? What about a year from now? How easy do you think it'll be for a newly level 80 crafter, a year from now, to find 8 other crafters willing to make the items for him? Most people will already have done them by then - I can pretty much promise you that a year from now, there won't be any raids of tradeskillers amassing to craft each other these updates. Most likely is, the poor newly level 80 will have to ask around in channels for days, maybe weeks, and offer lots of cash for anyone to help him. And THAT is why I think it's a badly designed step of an otherwise really cool quest.</p></blockquote><p>Absolutely right Possumu. This is going to be almost impossible for any character after the initial fever has elapsed, unless you are charged big time for the comission. Let me ask... whats the difference between buying the item at the broker because the NO-TRADE tag is removed and paying a comission to another trader? The difficulty is just the same, its not easier one way or the other, so we are not talking about easy buttons, silver platters, dumbing-downers and lazy bodies here. We are talking about money on the broker or money in hand.</p><p>The only difference is that people who have worked hard to have 9 crafters going (yeah, a real easy job this one, a breeze I would say) are penalised for daring to such outrage as to level 9 toons to 80. The guy who has the plat, wont have to do nothing of the sort. Will have the epic just spending plats.</p><p>And, btw, <b>Kalyyn </b>said: "<i>Is it more or less effort to stand at a workstation and hit a combination of 3 buttons 10-15 times or to spend time using the character search tools or chat-channels in game to find someone else to push those buttons?</i>". To stand at a workstation and hit a combination of 3 buttons 10-15 times in a do it yourself way, first you have to have 9 lvl 80 crafters. Thats the effort youre not counting. I would say that its a lot more difficult level a crafter to 80 AND then hit a combination of buttons, than searching for a comissioner paying 20 plats.</p>

[Rainmare]

and again, the only people we see complaining are the people with 9 crafters on one account.you're just going to have to suck it up and realize they made a quest for crafters that doesn't allow you to make all your own components.You are a tradeskiller. a craftsman. part of being that is having the ability to interact with others to form business relationships.here's the big difference in EQ1. becuase all the components were tradeable, they sold for outrageous prices. why? because those tradeskillers that had all the trades could charge any price they wanted, due to the fact that they would never have to need anyone else's help. Thus, they would never have to worry about someone extorting <i>them</i> for components.now in this setup, you have to have the assistance of other master tradeskillers in various trades. which means, unless you want someone to charge you an arm and a leg later (and word does spread fast) or make any money at all, you better keep your prices reasonable.Oh, not to mention, you can't even start this quest unless you are an 80 crafter. so most people trade the components between eachother, and many traders are more than willing to lend assistance. especially if you provide the materials. 10g is nothing in RoK.

[ashen1973]

<cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When I got to thi step I thought ah this is gonna be a problem so I checked the chat channels and there were 4 of us (me included) looking for swapping comission stuff, so we set up a group and then searched for others we needed. /who trader 80 ftw!</p><p>In the end I set up a raid of 22 traders (my being the only jeweler on) who had got to this step. We all finished he quests a number of hours later for those who joined at the beggining and we got the cloak server discos for Unrest =)</p><p>My point is this is doable. It an epic quest and should not be easy. It wasnt easy finding all the classes necessary but we persevered and we got it done! </p></blockquote><p>Of course it's doable now. The quest just came out, every single level 80 crafter out there did it the day it came out or will in the following week. But what about six months from now? What about a year from now? How easy do you think it'll be for a newly level 80 crafter, a year from now, to find 8 other crafters willing to make the items for him? Most people will already have done them by then - I can pretty much promise you that a year from now, there won't be any raids of tradeskillers amassing to craft each other these updates. Most likely is, the poor newly level 80 will have to ask around in channels for days, maybe weeks, and offer lots of cash for anyone to help him. And THAT is why I think it's a badly designed step of an otherwise really cool quest.</p></blockquote><p>Absolutely right Possumu. This is going to be almost impossible for any character after the initial fever has elapsed, unless you are charged big time for the comission. Let me ask... whats the difference between buying the item at the broker because the NO-TRADE tag is removed and paying a comission to another trader? The difficulty is just the same, its not easier one way or the other, so we are not talking about easy buttons, silver platters, dumbing-downers and lazy bodies here. We are talking about money on the broker or money in hand.</p><p>The only difference is that people who have worked hard to have 9 crafters going (yeah, a real easy job this one, a breeze I would say) are penalised for daring to such outrage as to level 9 toons to 80. The guy who has the plat, wont have to do nothing of the sort. Will have the epic just spending plats.</p><p>And, btw, <b>Kalyyn </b>said: "<i>Is it more or less effort to stand at a workstation and hit a combination of 3 buttons 10-15 times or to spend time using the character search tools or chat-channels in game to find someone else to push those buttons?</i>". To stand at a workstation and hit a combination of 3 buttons 10-15 times in a do it yourself way, first you have to have 9 lvl 80 crafters. Thats the effort youre not counting. I would say that its a lot more difficult level a crafter to 80 AND then hit a combination of buttons, than searching for a comissioner paying 20 plats.</p></blockquote><p>First , I strongly believe that it will only get easier to find someone to craft the items for you as time goes on. There will be crafters hitting the appropriate stage of the quest all the time. </p><p>I cant understand why people think it will be more difficult to get these items made, than it is to get any other item made. i have (and i know I have posted this before, but it seems to require saying again) never had a problem finding a crafter to make any item for me, and always at a reasonable rate. And if the crafters you have found in the past have charged you 20pp for a combine, then more fool you for paying it and I expect you havnt looked hard enough. (as you have all of the proffesions at cap, i expect you haven't had to find someone else to make an item for you in a long time, so how exactly do you know just how hard it is?)</p><p>No-one is being penalised here. Just because you have all of the crafters at 80, is the quest any harder for you than someone who only hs the one? or is the quest EXACTLY the same. It is no harder for you, just no easier either.</p><p>I appreciate the effort put in to raising so many characters to level 80- (I have all except 2 in the high 70's, and those 2 well on the way). And there are many, many advantages to being so self-sufficient. But, for the purposes of this quest, I don't see why that should give anyone an advantage. </p><p>A lot of time has been spent here arguing over this step. Its all pretty mute. As the quest stands (and I know 99% of people, I have spoken to or read posts from,wouldnt want it changed) the final part of this quest is designed to get you out working with your fellow crafters.</p><p>If you choose that you don't want to do this, thats fine. If you choose to be completely self-sufficient and dont want to approach another player for help, again, thats completely fine. These are your choices and there is nothing at all wrong with this style of playing.</p><p>But, if you do make those choices, you are also choosing not to complete this quest. And thats about all there is to it.</p>

[Qandor]

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>here's the big difference in EQ1. becuase all the components were tradeable, they sold for outrageous prices. why? because those tradeskillers that had all the trades could charge any price they wanted, due to the fact that they would never have to need anyone else's help. Thus, they would never have to worry about someone extorting <i>them</i> for components.</blockquote><p>You missed the real big difference. Higher prices had nothing to do with them being tradeable. Higher prices were due to the fact that anyone could do the quest. You didn't have to be a crafter. So you had many non-crafters looking for the pieces. If those pieces in EQ1 had been on a commission system, the price would have skyrocketed. </p><p>I see a lot of jealousy here for folks with 9 crafters. It seems many feel they should be punished for some reason. Seems very odd just as it seems peculiar that this was placed on a commssion system for no apparent reason. Why not put the mannequins on commission, the AA miror is on commission due to .........well, why is it commissioned anyway? They already have it locked down so that you can only use one mirror so why the need for a commission to make it? It seems a coin toss is being made when new items are being introduced, tails = no commission, heads = commission. Are they that proud of this commission interface that they have to stick it in when it serves no purpose?   </p>

[erin]

I don't know about other servers, but on blackburrow I've participated in a couple different crafting raids.I know that anyone in my guild is set, I've got all 9 crafters (5 are on PotP or complete already) and there's several of each of the crafters.And even if you aren't in my guild, if, 6 months from now, you need a combine, I'm willing to help. Don't expect me to drop everything and come to you, but if I'm in the city or in a crafting instance, I'll certainly help.And I know that this is true for many crafters.  If you see a 80 <insert class> and you say "excuse me, do you have your crafting epic, would you be willing to do my combine?" At least 50% of the time they'll help you.  I think in some ways it will be easier in 6 months because more people will be done.Yes, its been frustrating finding a ws (mine's not done), but we've managed.  And soon there'll be more of them available!

[KerowynnKaotic]

<p>To the people that are worried that in 6 months this quest will be too freaking hard to complete ... </p><p>Do you have any idea how many people in the Crafting Side of things have multiple Crafters at max level?</p><p>If someone is willing to make 1 combine more than likely they will be willing to log on every single one of their Crafters and go through the combines for someone. </p><p>Yes, I would expect someone to ask a maybe a plat or 2(or more) for their time but it won't be impossible.  </p><p>Will it take a day or 2 to find a Crafter willing to do the combine?  .. maybe .. but it can take a few days to find a Crafter willing to do a Combine for a regular craft-able at times.  </p><p>Eventually, this will be just like any other item.  </p><p>*shrug*</p>

[Aethn]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This isn't interdependency.It's forced cameraderie.Which, in a few months, will be forgotten.Anyone who wants to do this quest then will have to scour their server for anyone willing to take thime out to help a stranger (without wanting some plat up front).I forsee this requirement being removed in about six months' time.Remind me to say "I told you so".</blockquote>..............I don't think it will be a huge problem to find your 8 crafters down the line, nor do I think they will charge huge fees (well, some will because some are always jerks -- but many will not).  .............</blockquote><p>Your kidding, right?  This is the same game that has Fat Grubs for a lvl 20 collection quest selling for 2pp on average acrosss all servers.  No, I think you are very wrong in your assumption that people wont be trying to retire on one sale in 6 months.  I am willing to bet you the farm that in 6 months you wont be able to find all 8 crafters for less then 20-25+ pp total to do the combines, and that will be if you supply then 100% of everything.  You under estimate then internet and its unwavering ability to bring out the worst in people.</p><p>I am going to go with MrWolfie on this one and say that in 6 moths, unless you have 9 crafters close friends, a guild that is willing to step in or ust plain find that one guy on the server who has some integreity your are not going to be able to complete this epic without laying out your life savings for it.</p>

[Aethn]

<p>As for removing the No-Trade aspect of the items, i dont see why they are No-Trade to start with.  To this day the original items are still tradeable in EQ1, it did not destroy the economy but infact bolstered the economy and gave a huge boon to crafters in the Bazaar for sales.</p><p>Since you need to get others to make the items anyways, why not just remove the No-Trade tags, and let them post them on brokers, make the items lore, so you can only sell one at a time, and this way you dont need to worry about one broker flooding the market with hundreds of items at a time.  Problem solved.  Fits the original storyline / system for the item.</p>

[Domino]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I see a lot of jealousy here for folks with 9 crafters. It seems many feel they should be punished for some reason. Seems very odd just as it seems peculiar that this was placed on a commssion system for no apparent reason. Why not put the mannequins on commission, the AA miror is on commission due to .........well, why is it commissioned anyway? They already have it locked down so that you can only use one mirror so why the need for a commission to make it? It seems a coin toss is being made when new items are being introduced, tails = no commission, heads = commission. Are they that proud of this commission interface that they have to stick it in when it serves no purpose?   </blockquote>There is nothing whatsoever about this quest that punishes people with 9 crafters, they do the exact same quest as everybody else in exactly the same way.Also, just because you don't see the reason for some items requiring commissioning, doesn't mean that there isn't one.  There were good reasons for each decision and those remain.  If there are equally good reasons for them to change in the future then they will.  But buying your epic off the broker is not something that adds any fun to anybody except the exact same people who are currently selling ebon for 6p.  As I've already stated, this is not going to change unless I see clear evidence there is an issue down the road, which is definitely not the case at the moment - quite the opposite.  Working exactly as intended, move along, nothing see here.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Jacobian21]

<p>Thank you Domino.  I was talking to Kiana about this a bit the other day too. I have all 9 crafters and only 2 aren't at 80 yet.  I think as time passes more people will be available who have the recipes, and I think you will be able to take bids on getting the items made for reasonable prices.  I mean, I was paying people 20g for each combine, in addition to the imbuing material and the rare.  And I was charging the same for other people once I got my cloak and earring.  I think there will always be people who are gonna price gouge, and I will just ignore those people.  And this is probably just my personal perspective on this quest, but after getting one of my toons through it, I'm not in a hurry to get my other 8 through it as well.  I got my earring.... yes, the cloak is nice, but the earring is the real reward... and I just wanted it so I could be an UBER harvester (now I just need those leather insoles for my DWB and I'll be set).  So I think all those people who don't like to get help from others, or are thinking they will be charged an arm and a leg... I just say.. keep looking for other people who are willing to help you out at a reasonable price.  I mean, 20g a piece is only 1.6p for the set (since you can make one yourself), which isn't that bad considering how badass that earring is and the fact that you get one of EVERY T8 rare at the end!  Besides.. if you really don't like interacting with other people that much, well then you either don't do the quest... or you just suck it up for the few days it might take to find all those people, and then you can go back to your regular way of doing things.</p>

[ashen1973]

<cite>Aethn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your kidding, right?  This is the same game that has Fat Grubs for a lvl 20 collection quest selling for 2pp on average acrosss all servers.  No, I think you are very wrong in your assumption that people wont be trying to retire on one sale in 6 months. <span style="color: #cc3366;"> I am willing to bet you the farm that in 6 months you wont be able to find all 8 crafters for less then 20-25+ pp total to do the combines</span>, and that will be if you supply then 100% of everything.  You under estimate then internet and its unwavering ability to bring out the worst in people.</p><p>I am going to go with MrWolfie on this one and say that in 6 moths, unless you have 9 crafters close friends, a guild that is willing to step in or ust plain find that one guy on the server who has some integreity your are not going to be able to complete this epic without laying out your life savings for it.</p></blockquote><p>I take that bet. take my name, shoot me a tell/mail in 6 months time. I if I cant get all of the items made for less than 25pp, i'll give you 25pp. </p><p>As I and others have stated time and time again in this post and others, The majority of players in EQ2 are nice people. I have become really interested in peoples perspectives on the community they play withtin since this thread started, and have made a point of asking many people their experiences. Yes most people have the one or two stories of someone trying to charge rediculous amounts for crafting an item. But for every one of those, I've heard many more of how friendly and helpful people can be. I've heard of crafters refusing any more than costs, i've heard many, many accounts of crafters trekking to sinking sands, terens grasp or bethizids watch to make an item for a player of the opposing faction. I've heard of more than one crafter that has gone all the way to the SoS forge and crafted HQ items just for an unspecified tip.</p><p>The more I hear these stories, the more I am proud to be part of the EQ2 community. I've been a part of other MMO communities in the past and found nothing like the friendliness I find here.</p><p>It does make me wonder just what causes some people to have so many bad experiences that they believe that there is no good-will out there at all.</p><p>The big complaints are coming from those with all the classes themselves. These people will have little experience in co-operation and I feel are probably baseing their posts on what they think it is like, not the reality.</p><p>Could it be the complainers have experience in that big MMO thats out there, where I would expect the sort of unhelpfull and unfriendly community they say we have here, and are just expecting the EQ2 community to be the same?</p><p>Anyway, the quest is great</p><p>most people that have done it seem to think it was great</p><p>i wouldnt expect to see any changes to it, which is great</p><p>Those that dont like it, make a choice, dont do it, just stop trying tar everyone else with the same brush that you have used on yourself.</p><p>p.s  i know some collectables do sell for more than they should, but thats the broker market for you. But I would like to know where you got the information on Fat grubs from?? Did you personally log in to every server and check the price?</p><p>Well, you must have missed splitpaw, this morning anyway, I had one up for sale for 35g and I wasnt the cheapest.</p>

[Qandor]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I see a lot of jealousy here for folks with 9 crafters. It seems many feel they should be punished for some reason. Seems very odd just as it seems peculiar that this was placed on a commssion system for no apparent reason. Why not put the mannequins on commission, the AA miror is on commission due to .........well, why is it commissioned anyway? They already have it locked down so that you can only use one mirror so why the need for a commission to make it? It seems a coin toss is being made when new items are being introduced, tails = no commission, heads = commission. Are they that proud of this commission interface that they have to stick it in when it serves no purpose?   </blockquote>There is nothing whatsoever about this quest that punishes people with 9 crafters, they do the exact same quest as everybody else in exactly the same way.Also, just because you don't see the reason for some items requiring commissioning, doesn't mean that there isn't one.  There were good reasons for each decision and those remain.  If there are equally good reasons for them to change in the future then they will.  But buying your epic off the broker is not something that adds any fun to anybody except the exact same people who are currently selling ebon for 6p.  As I've already stated, this is not going to change unless I see clear evidence there is an issue down the road, which is definitely not the case at the moment - quite the opposite.  Working exactly as intended, move along, nothing see here.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Who is asking you to change anything? Certainly not I. I'm just remarking on the current situation as I see it. I know full well that it is a rare event indeed for SOE to ever go back and revisit an issue. They are always full speed ahead on to the next expansion sale. </p><p>Strange that you would quote me, about punishing folks with 9 crafters. That was not a statement I myself made. I was just reiterating what others had said in the thread. I have 9 level 80 crafters and would have no intention of getting them all cloaks if you arrived at my doorstep and handed the items to me. Most of them have no need of a fancy cloak to log in and churn out crafting writs.  Two of those crafters are level 80 adventurers also and therefore the cloak could have been a nice appearance item so I went for the cloaks on those toons. The weaponsmith cloak is so hideous I didn't even bother picking it up however. Those 9 crafters were made back in the day when there was still hope that crafting would play a meaningful role in EQ2. I continue to level them out of either sheer stubborness or stupidity, not sure which. I'm certainly not leveling them to craft much of anything aside from the occassional twink gear or house item. </p><p>But since I have your ear, I was wondering when we move on to tier 9 one day, will we be using the tier 2 or tier 3 models for the tier 9 crafted weapons? The shiields I 'm pretty sure of, I think we are due for the tier 3 models again. Although in the greater scheme of things it really doesn't matter, no one will use them anyway. I take that back, some will use the tier 9's in tier 13. Twinks and all, you know how it goes. </p>

[Anestacia]

Id like to see something added to the game that would allow no drop things able to be passed to alts from the shared window.  This window would not be good or evil faction based; it would be available to all characters.  This would be a benefit in this case if you had all the crafters.  I mean, you did put in the long hours to have one of each crafter only to have to hunt down one anyway.  This could also help in the transmutation process for your alts to give their no-drop trash loot to your transmuter.  Of course this will probably never happen and a few ways to abuse this system come to mind but if those things could be prevented I think it would be a useful tool added to EQ2.  Just my 2 cents.

[Motown]

<cite>Aethn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Your kidding, right?  This is the same game that has Fat Grubs for a lvl 20 collection quest selling for 2pp on average acrosss all servers.</p></blockquote>That is purely a laziness tax.  Everyone - and I do mean everyone - has the ability to complete that quest, without levelling anything, at absolutely no cost to themselves, as is the case with most collections.I can't see any reason why one shouldn't be able to complete this quest at nominal cost with a modicum of networking skill, effort and a bit of horse trading.<i></i>

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Those that have posted negative comments dont seem to have offered any alternative ideas.</p></blockquote>Funny that you quote me and make this sort of comment, given that I *have* posted an alternative idea on this subject. I posted that the items from other crafters should be tradeable, but would only be a step in the process for the individual doing the epic. The individual would need to quest a recipe for each item they receive, or the one they make themselves, to further refine it to be used in the quest. That way the option is there for everyone, either they can get the item from another crafter, which they're doing with the commission system anyway, or they can make it on their own on an alt. Either way, the item would still require further refinement on the part of the crafter doing the epic. The way its set up now is effort on the part of the individual doing the quest, then a gimme step, and that just cheapens the whole process.

[Calthine]

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aethn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your kidding, right?  This is the same game that has Fat Grubs for a lvl 20 collection quest selling for 2pp on average acrosss all servers.  No, I think you are very wrong in your assumption that people wont be trying to retire on one sale in 6 months. <span style="color: #cc3366;"> I am willing to bet you the farm that in 6 months you wont be able to find all 8 crafters for less then 20-25+ pp total to do the combines</span>, and that will be if you supply then 100% of everything.  You under estimate then internet and its unwavering ability to bring out the worst in people.</p><p>I am going to go with MrWolfie on this one and say that in 6 moths, unless you have 9 crafters close friends, a guild that is willing to step in or ust plain find that one guy on the server who has some integreity your are not going to be able to complete this epic without laying out your life savings for it.</p></blockquote><p>I take that bet. take my name, shoot me a tell/mail in 6 months time. I if I cant get all of the items made for less than 25pp, i'll give you 25pp.</p></blockquote>I'll take that bet too.  When I finally get there I'll make 'em fuel + tips with your rare.  Just like I do morrors and Adornments.

[erin]

Ok here's a helpful tip for those that think that in 6 months they won't be able to find a crafter.Do it now.  Don't wait.  I was in a whirlwind of ts epics, and forgot to get the final quest with my carpenter.  /shrug so I'm a bit blonde!!However I did an exchange of services with an alch.  Huh... no update.  Oh crap, forgot to get the quest!!Well, ran to rivervale, got the quest, and the alch item instantly updated!So you can get all 9 items today, and then do the quest in 6 months and still benefit.Tada.  Problem solved!

[ashen1973]

<cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Those that have posted negative comments dont seem to have offered any alternative ideas.</p></blockquote>Funny that you quote me and make this sort of comment, given that I *have* posted an alternative idea on this subject. I posted that the items from other crafters should be tradeable, but would only be a step in the process for the individual doing the epic. The individual would need to quest a recipe for each item they receive, or the one they make themselves, to further refine it to be used in the quest. That way the option is there for everyone, either they can get the item from another crafter, which they're doing with the commission system anyway, or they can make it on their own on an alt. Either way, the item would still require further refinement on the part of the crafter doing the epic. The way its set up now is effort on the part of the individual doing the quest, then a gimme step, and that just cheapens the whole process. </blockquote><p>That's not a viable alternative to me (and im guessing the majority that have done this quest). That would just be adding another 'make or buy 8 items' step, and who really wants that?? that would just be giving those that seek to profit from it another set of items to throw on the broker.</p><p>Most of the people that are unhappy with this quest (thankfuly a very small minority) have said that they believe it will be far to difficult to find other crafters in the future to help with this step, or will be charged far to much the combines. If this is the case (and I dont for one minute believe it will be), then how is such a difficult step a 'gimme' step?</p><p>How does developing relationships (no-matter how brief) with others in the crafting community cheapening the process? </p><p>This quest has stages that prove you can craft the most difficult items. This quest has stages that prove you are willing to take risks to further your craft. This quest has stages that proves you are willing to invest coin or harvesting time to show your a master of your profession. </p><p>And, the most relevant point to this discussion, this quest also has a stage that proves that you are willing and capable of communicating with and bartering/negotiating with your peers to obtain items that your character cannot manufacture themself.</p><p>I dont believe this cheapens the process one bit. In fact it strengthens your right to use the title 'master'.</p><p>So, show me an alternative idea that still ticks all those boxes and I'll happily listen. Until then, if you dont want to get invovled with your fellows, dont do this quest. Just dont whine about it, suck it up and carry on as you did a couple of weeks ago when we didnt even know there was such a thingas an epic TS quest.</p>

[Poetelia]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I see a lot of jealousy here for folks with 9 crafters. It seems many feel they should be punished for some reason. Seems very odd just as it seems peculiar that this was placed on a commssion system for no apparent reason. Why not put the mannequins on commission, the AA miror is on commission due to .........well, why is it commissioned anyway? They already have it locked down so that you can only use one mirror so why the need for a commission to make it? It seems a coin toss is being made when new items are being introduced, tails = no commission, heads = commission. Are they that proud of this commission interface that they have to stick it in when it serves no purpose?   </blockquote>There is nothing whatsoever about this quest that punishes people with 9 crafters, they do the exact same quest as everybody else in exactly the same way.Also, just because you don't see the reason for some items requiring commissioning, doesn't mean that there isn't one.  There were good reasons for each decision and those remain.  If there are equally good reasons for them to change in the future then they will.  But buying your epic off the broker is not something that adds any fun to anybody except the exact same people who are currently selling ebon for 6p.  As I've already stated, this is not going to change unless I see clear evidence there is an issue down the road, which is definitely not the case at the moment - quite the opposite.  Working exactly as intended, move along, nothing see here.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Its always nice to have a developer so devoted to the community that she is always ready to come down to the coliseum arena with the rest of us to become involved. Thanks again for that.</p><p>I dont doubt there will be reasons for every decision made for every quest, and thats, both, the right and duty, of a good developer. I dont doubt either, that the quest is working as intended. But with all due respect, I dont think its a bad idea to discuss over concepts and mechanics... now that we are all talking about building a sense of community, this is what its about, isnt it? I agree that buying an epic off the broker is not something fun..., I cant agree more with that. What I fail to see, again, with all due respect, is why its funnier buying it off other crafters in person instead of via broker, because, when all the fuss of the first days passes and all the fun and camaraderie of "lets do a crafting raid" its over, thats what will happen. The making of those items wont be more camaraderie and community building than the making of a set of ebon vanguard armor. If we are looking for that close contact between customer and crafter, wont that question the very existence of the broker for every crafted item? Im just trying to play devil advocate here, again, with all due respect. I will leave it at that and thank you again for your interest in us.</p><p><b>Rainmare</b> wrote: "<i>you're just going to have to suck it up and realize they made a quest for crafters that doesn't allow you to make all your own components.You are a tradeskiller. a craftsman. part of being that is having the ability to interact with others to form business relationships</i>."</p><p>I do "suck it up". Im not quitting or anything about this minor issue. But I have the right to express my opinion, as good or bad as anyone else's. And the business relationships needed for any crafter are pretty well established in this game via the broker, that wonderful tool. I "suck it up" and give my opinion.</p><p><b>Kalyyn</b> wrote: "<i>I cant understand why people think it will be more difficult to get these items made, than it is to get any other item made. i have (and i know I have posted this before, but it seems to require saying again) never had a problem finding a crafter to make any item for me, and always at a reasonable rate. And if the crafters you have found in the past have charged you 20pp for a combine, then more fool you for paying it and I expect you havnt looked hard enough. (as you have all of the proffesions at cap, i expect you haven't had to find someone else to make an item for you in a long time, so how exactly do you know just how hard it is?</i>)"</p><p>I cant understand how you cant understand it, frankly. Try to find an armorer to make you a full suit of steel chainmail. I can guarantee you this: it will be a lot harder and slower than it was at launch, when most of the population was 20-30, and a loooot more expensive. Now you have to look a lot more for an armorer if you want a full set of ebon than you had to look before DoF. I have never paid 20 pp for a combine, obviously. I havent been the one putting that number on the table, just took it from another poster that stated that was the price some people were asking. I never said I had all the crafters at cap, and of course I know the availability and prices of items, being a crafter myself, and also, I play the game, so I know exactly how hard everything, more or less, is.</p><p>Also wrote: "<i>A lot of time has been spent here arguing over this step. Its all pretty mute. As the quest stands (and I know 99% of people, I have spoken to or read posts from,wouldnt want it changed) the final part of this quest is designed to get you out working with your fellow crafters</i>."</p><p>Absolutely correct, except the 99% part. I wouldnt say 99% agree with this. But youre right, the quest is as it is and you can choose to do it or not. As it should be. You also are entitled to give your opinion as long as its respectful... this is what a forum is about.</p><p>And, Kalyyn, in any serious discussion about anything, you can ask people to give you alternatives. What you cant seriously ask is that those alternatives be viable for you. I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours... I wont ask you to give me ideas acceptable to me to value your points... that way there wouldnt be an argument, would it?</p><p>You make the point of us not wanting to interact with other crafters, I would say you almost revolve your entire argument around that idea. I assure you I have no problem whatsoever interacting with other people. Fortunately, I belong to a wonderful and numerous guild and I think we dont miss any 80 crafter, so I will have no problem whatsoever whenever I feel like getting that cloak. But if you ask me if I think that the quest has a good design and will last in the future, I point out I have doubts on both accounts. Sorry not to agree with you. I respectfully claim my right to disagree. </p>

[ashen1973]

<cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I see a lot of jealousy here for folks with 9 crafters. It seems many feel they should be punished for some reason. Seems very odd just as it seems peculiar that this was placed on a commssion system for no apparent reason. Why not put the mannequins on commission, the AA miror is on commission due to .........well, why is it commissioned anyway? They already have it locked down so that you can only use one mirror so why the need for a commission to make it? It seems a coin toss is being made when new items are being introduced, tails = no commission, heads = commission. Are they that proud of this commission interface that they have to stick it in when it serves no purpose?   </blockquote>There is nothing whatsoever about this quest that punishes people with 9 crafters, they do the exact same quest as everybody else in exactly the same way.Also, just because you don't see the reason for some items requiring commissioning, doesn't mean that there isn't one.  There were good reasons for each decision and those remain.  If there are equally good reasons for them to change in the future then they will.  But buying your epic off the broker is not something that adds any fun to anybody except the exact same people who are currently selling ebon for 6p.  As I've already stated, this is not going to change unless I see clear evidence there is an issue down the road, which is definitely not the case at the moment - quite the opposite.  Working exactly as intended, move along, nothing see here.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Its always nice to have a developer so devoted to the community that she is always ready to come down to the coliseum arena with the rest of us to become involved. Thanks again for that.</p><p>I dont doubt there will be reasons for every decision made for every quest, and thats, both, the right and duty, of a good developer. I dont doubt either, that the quest is working as intended. But with all due respect, I dont think its a bad idea to discuss over concepts and mechanics... now that we are all talking about building a sense of community, this is what its about, isnt it? I agree that buying an epic off the broker is not something fun..., I cant agree more with that. What I fail to see, again, with all due respect, is why its funnier buying it off other crafters in person instead of via broker, because, when all the fuss of the first days passes and all the fun and camaraderie of "lets do a crafting raid" its over, thats what will happen. The making of those items wont be more camaraderie and community building than the making of a set of ebon vanguard armor. If we are looking for that close contact between customer and crafter, wont that question the very existence of the broker for every crafted item? Im just trying to play devil advocate here, again, with all due respect. I will leave it at that and thank you again for your interest in us.</p><p><b>Rainmare</b> wrote: "<i>you're just going to have to suck it up and realize they made a quest for crafters that doesn't allow you to make all your own components.You are a tradeskiller. a craftsman. part of being that is having the ability to interact with others to form business relationships</i>."</p><p>I do "suck it up". Im not quitting or anything about this minor issue. But I have the right to express my opinion, as good or bad as anyone else's. And the business relationships needed for any crafter are pretty well established in this game via the broker, that wonderful tool. I "suck it up" and give my opinion.</p><p><b>Kalyyn</b> wrote: "<i>I cant understand why people think it will be more difficult to get these items made, than it is to get any other item made. i have (and i know I have posted this before, but it seems to require saying again) never had a problem finding a crafter to make any item for me, and always at a reasonable rate. And if the crafters you have found in the past have charged you 20pp for a combine, then more fool you for paying it and I expect you havnt looked hard enough. (as you have all of the proffesions at cap, i expect you haven't had to find someone else to make an item for you in a long time, so how exactly do you know just how hard it is?</i>)"</p><p>I cant understand how you cant understand it, frankly. Try to find an armorer to make you a full suit of steel chainmail. I can guarantee you this: it will be a lot harder and slower than it was at launch, when most of the population was 20-30, and a loooot more expensive. Now you have to look a lot more for an armorer if you want a full set of ebon than you had to look before DoF. I have never paid 20 pp for a combine, obviously. I havent been the one putting that number on the table, just took it from another poster that stated that was the price some people were asking. I never said I had all the crafters at cap, and of course I know the availability and prices of items, being a crafter myself, and also, I play the game, so I know exactly how hard everything, more or less, is.</p><p>Also wrote: "<i>A lot of time has been spent here arguing over this step. Its all pretty mute. As the quest stands (and I know 99% of people, I have spoken to or read posts from,wouldnt want it changed) the final part of this quest is designed to get you out working with your fellow crafters</i>."</p><p>Absolutely correct, except the 99% part. I wouldnt say 99% agree with this. But youre right, the quest is as it is and you can choose to do it or not. As it should be. You also are entitled to give your opinion as long as its respectful... this is what a forum is about.</p><p>And, Kalyyn, in any serious discussion about anything, you can ask people to give you alternatives. What you cant seriously ask is that those alternatives be viable for you. I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours... I wont ask you to give me ideas acceptable to me to value your points... that way there wouldnt be an argument, would it?</p><p>You make the point of us not wanting to interact with other crafters, I would say you almost revolve your entire argument around that idea. I assure you I have no problem whatsoever interacting with other people. Fortunately, I belong to a wonderful and numerous guild and I think we dont miss any 80 crafter, so I will have no problem whatsoever whenever I feel like getting that cloak. But if you ask me if I think that the quest has a good design and will last in the future, I point out I have doubts on both accounts. Sorry not to agree with you. I respectfully claim my right to disagree. </p></blockquote><p>First of all, if anything I have posted has not come across as respectful of other peoples opinions, i apologise, this was not my intention.</p><p>There seem to be 2 views from those that see the final part of this quest in a negative way, and not all hold both views. Sorry if I seemed to be addressing my resposnes to any person in particular, just more at the general views.</p><p> firstly, people think that it will be difficult to find someone to craft the items in the future.</p><p>I really believe strongly that it will not be any more difficult than it currently is to get any normal item made. I can only go on my own and others that I have spoken to's experiences. But I have never had a problem finding someone to make me any item for a reasonable price. I posted previously of all the good stories I have heard while chatting to various people over the last few days. And these good stories seem to be multiplying. Yes, I agree it may not be quite as easy as it is at the moment. But I don't foresee it taking more than a couple of days to find the crafters you want, at most. Just putting a message into level chat or your servers trade channel every half hour or so, while your crafting or out adventuring, will soon get you a response.</p><p>In my experience the hardest thing to get done is a full-set of armour or a full-set of jewellery. As you need to find someone willing to spend the time making multiple combines. It can take a little while to find someone, but it can always be done.</p><p>With these items, we are going to be looking for multiple crafters, but each crafter will only be making one combine. So only a small amount of their time is needed and more chance of finding someone willing to do it.</p><p>As a test, try on your server to find a sage to make you a lvl 60 spell, or a jeweller to make you a lvl 52 earring. I am betting it wont take long to find someone.</p><p>But, what the situation will be in 6 months is pure specualtion on our parts. Im just willing to stand by my bet that it will not be as difficult as some foresee.</p><p> I have been trying to think why I feel so strongly about this. And have come to the conclussion that I feel this quest was a huge step in the right direction for tradeskilling in EQ2. Crafting has long been the little-thought-of cousin of adventuring here, and thats a shame. Anything that can be done to make it more fun, to appeal to others, to add some new element to the whole crafting world is a great thing. We have had more love thrown our way since Domino took over than we have had since the game launched.</p><p>This quest has people coming together as a community. Something a lot of people have enjoyed and something I hope people can enjoy in the future.</p><p>We have all seen cases in the past where a vocal minority moan about something enough that it is changed. And I would hate to see this changed in anyway.</p><p>And looking to the future, I would hate to see a full-reversion to the inter-dependancy of the old days. This took it to far.</p><p>Normal and mastercrafted items should be made, from scratch, by one artisan at a workstation.</p><p>But , maybe, if we had a few more items thrown in, that required some co-operation between different people, then more people will start to see the good that can come from working together. Then , maybe, there will be more people available to spend a few minutes just to help another person out.</p><p>Again, I would want this for only a small amount of items and the vast majority left as-is. But a few more no-trade, commission only items would be great.</p><p>Maybe, after someone has been through this quest, and called in the help of 8 other crafters, they will realise just how good it felt to be helped. then next time they are asked, they will be more inclined to help themselves.</p>

[Poetelia]

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But, what the situation will be in 6 months is pure specualtion on our parts. Im just willing to stand by my bet that it will not be as difficult as some foresee.</p><p><span style="color: #009900;">It IS speculation. And we will see what happens. I wont be shy if in that time I have to say here or anywhere you were right.</span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> I have been trying to think why I feel so strongly about this. And have come to the conclussion that I feel this quest was a huge step in the right direction for tradeskilling in EQ2. Crafting has long been the little-thought-of cousin of adventuring here, and thats a shame. Anything that can be done to make it more fun, to appeal to others, to add some new element to the whole crafting world is a great thing. We have had more love thrown our way since Domino took over than we have had since the game launched.</p><p>This quest has people coming together as a community. Something a lot of people have enjoyed and something I hope people can enjoy in the future.</p><p>We have all seen cases in the past where a vocal minority moan about something enough that it is changed. And I would hate to see this changed in anyway.</p><p>And looking to the future, I would hate to see a full-reversion to the inter-dependancy of the old days. This took it to far.</p><p>Normal and mastercrafted items should be made, from scratch, by one artisan at a workstation.</p><p>But , maybe, if we had a few more items thrown in, that required some co-operation between different people, then more people will start to see the good that can come from working together. Then , maybe, there will be more people available to spend a few minutes just to help another person out.</p><p>Again, I would want this for only a small amount of items and the vast majority left as-is. But a few more no-trade, commission only items would be great.</p><p>Maybe, after someone has been through this quest, and called in the help of 8 other crafters, they will realise just how good it felt to be helped. then next time they are asked, they will be more inclined to help themselves.</p><span style="color: #009900;">I wish it could be that way. I would hope you were right. But Im very very skeptical. People are too competitive for that. They help each other at first because they want to have the epic themselves. After that, some stay to just help. Most move on and we are again basically on square one. Anyways, I share your good hopes. I rest now my case.</span></blockquote><p>Unfortunately, I honestly think crafting will always be second to adventuring, at least until people begin to think that the effort and time you spend at a crafting station equals time adventuring. Its all about making things people may desire. I kind of laugh when I hear the risk-v-reward argument. I always answer that Ive never received an electrical discharge from the keyboard when I died, so the risk is kinda relative. So, in the end, it measures on time lost playing the game. Thats the risk.</p>

[erin]

Maybe the reason people have so much trouble finding someone to do a lower level combine is because they don't put in the effort?If someone does a /who all <insert crafter> and sends me a tell "excuse me, I need a t4 combine, I have all the ingredients <lists ingredients> and fuels, and will come to you.  Would you do the combine for me?"  I'm all over that.  Lets see.  They come to me.  They hand me every single item needed plus the fuels.  All I have to do is spend just under 2 minutes to do the combine?  And I'm already in a crafting instance?  Yeah I'll do that.On the other hand, what most people do is say "hey I need a combine, will you do it?  I'll donate".  Me:  "what do you need?"Them: "you know, like t4 armor"Me:  "plate, chain?"them:  "I'm a <insert class>"And on it goes.  In other words, they want ME to do all the work for a combine that's 40 levels or more below my current level.  For, maybe, if I'm lucky, a 5gp tip, but most likely barely the fuel costs.I'm doing all the work and its to your benefit?  HUH?  So yea, I don't wonder at the fact that people have a hard time finding crafters.  Its not cause we aren't out there.  Its because you (generic you, not directed at anyone here) are too lazy to put in any effort.  Send me a tell asking for the recipe if you don't know where to look it up, then go get the ingredients. Buy them, harvest them, I don't care.  You make the effort, and a lot of crafters will be happy to help out.Don't put in any effort, expect me to drop everything I'm doing, guess what?  Yes you are going to get the cold shoulder.Sorry I know I'm ranting, but this bothers me no end.  Why will people just not put in any effort of their own? POTP is the same way, make sure you have all the ingredients and the fuel.  Don't expect the other guy to have it all.  If you are having trouble, put together a PotP party.  Yes even 6 months from now it will still happen.  Not every night but its doable.  Announce it on the server forums.  You can get this done.

[Valdaglerion]

OMG the sky is falling!!!!!!!Well, not right now but it's going to....someday...I swear it! And its all going to be because of this...just you wait and see...Its going to happen on some idle day ending in "Y" between 0:00:01 AND 24:59:59 come rain or shine when the server is full of peeps or empty and I wont be able to find anyone willing to help me at all and then you'll see what I am talking about.Honestly, are you going to come back in 6 months and tell us you were wrong?As cynical as I am I would gladly take your bet and accept your plat. Until the Earring item is replaced with something more useful which I dont see happening in the very near future this will be a viable quest. The combines dont take anything extra for crafters to make, same harvested materials, same old workstations, same locations. If anything I am, as are many other people I know on our server and apparently in the forums, more willing to help you with an item needed for a quest than just some MC upgrade you want or need to be more uber. I am doing the combines for gratis, I ask that the materials be supplied, nothing else. Dont expect me to do that for things like AA mirrors, A3 spells, weapon upgrades, housing items, etc. I hate having quests in my journal I cant complete <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Vonotar]

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the other hand, what most people do is say "hey I need a combine, will you do it?  I'll donate".  Me:  "what do you need?"Them: "you know, like t4 armor"Me:  "plate, chain?"them:  "I'm a <insert class>"And on it goes.  In other words, they want ME to do all the work for a combine that's 40 levels or more below my current level.  For, maybe, if I'm lucky, a 5gp tip, but most likely barely the fuel costs.I'm doing all the work and its to your benefit?  HUH?  So yea, I don't wonder at the fact that people have a hard time finding crafters.  Its not cause we aren't out there.  Its because you (generic you, not directed at anyone here) are too lazy to put in any effort.  Send me a tell asking for the recipe if you don't know where to look it up, then go get the ingredients. Buy them, harvest them, I don't care.  You make the effort, and a lot of crafters will be happy to help out.Don't put in any effort, expect me to drop everything I'm doing, guess what?  Yes you are going to get the cold shoulder.Sorry I know I'm ranting, but this bothers me no end.  Why will people just not put in any effort of their own? POTP is the same way, make sure you have all the ingredients and the fuel.  Don't expect the other guy to have it all.  If you are having trouble, put together a PotP party.  Yes even 6 months from now it will still happen.  Not every night but its doable.  Announce it on the server forums.  You can get this done.</blockquote>QFEThat said I must collar den-mum at some point and ask if she can add a list of resources below her screenshots of the 'full sets' of clothing/armor.  Would save a lot of trouble as the poor non-crafter and look at the website and thing "I want that one"!

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Kalyyn@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Most of the people that are unhappy with this quest (thankfuly a very small minority) have said that they believe it will be far to difficult to find other crafters in the future to help with this step, or will be charged far to much the combines. If this is the case (and I dont for one minute believe it will be), then how is such a difficult step a 'gimme' step?</p></blockquote>You won't be able to include me in that camp because I haven't posted that sort of opinion. That facet of things isn't part of my dissent with the quest as it stands. I don't think it will be difficult to find someone to make the combine in 6 months, nor do I think that they will charge an arm and a leg. I think that step of things will be the same sort of "gimme" step that it is right now. There's a lot of dislike of "buying your epic off the broker" in regards to this issue and having tradeable items in the quest, but having tradeable items involved in the quest is no less buying the epic than if you could go look someone up on the broker and get the items from them. How much personal effort does it take to do a /who on a certain type of crafter that you need and send a tell, or put out a message in a channel and send a tell? Now how is that more effort than finding someone on the broker who has an item and either buying it straight out or going to their house? I speak up on this sort of thing because this isn't a trend I like to see at all, differing from your stance on it. I don't want something made more "hard" because it involves more people. More people does not automatically equate to more challenge or more effort. If a group of crafters had to get together and accomplish some goal together, such as with the griffon towers (which I missed unfortunately due to work) and the spires (which I did get to have a lot of fun participating in) then I could get behind the idea. But the only requirement here is to stand there while someone else does work and you get the item. This artificial limitation on the quest that requires other people but has no logical reasoning why one should need another person is what I disagree with.

[MrWolfie]

<span style="color: #ff6600;">I have many reasons to be against the quest implementation as it stands, not just one. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'll list the top ones:</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">1. It's not a true judge of your crafting ability.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">2. There's only one way to achieve the goal. It's a limiting and artificial mechanic.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. It's undeniably a slight at those people who have worked 9 times harder* than anyone with a single crafter.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">4. In the future, in my opinion, it will be harder to get all the required items due to lack of interest on the part of others.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">The counter-arguments are:</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">1. Crafting requires community.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">2. Suck it up or don't do the quest.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. Tough. See #1 about not being insular.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">4. No, in my opinion, it won't. Nyaa nyaa nyaa.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">OK, we'll wait and see on #4. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">However, the other three counter arguments hold no weight whatsoever. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">Crafting isn't about community, it's about crafting and supplying desirable products; it's about business (and I think you'll find that Richard Branson is not friendly with Rupert Murdoch). If being a master craftsman is about the quality of your wares, then the quests should reflect that and should test your ability as a crafter. I'd have had bake-offs against the clock, or perhaps having to make food for an ogre, and if you don't make it with 100% in both progress and durability, then the ogre beats you to death (not that the quest tells you this beforehand).</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'm sure that we could come up with other quests specifically tailored to test each class.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">Suck it up? Don't do the quest?</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">This is Ever</span><i><span style="color: #ff6600;">Quest</span></i><span style="color: #ff6600;">!! We are all here to do as many quests as we can. The developers are there to put in as many quests as they can for us to do. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;">Players not doing them is a failure of the game's primary function.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">I don't have 9 crafters on one account. If I did, I'd feel aggrieved. I can sympathise. You should try it the next time someone complains, maybe they have a valid point.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><div align="right"><span style="color: #ff6600;">*small exaggeration, but you'll forgive me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></div><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span>

[Barx]

I hear a lot of whining... so you have to find 8 other crafters. It's not like you're going to die if you don't. I think this interdependency builds a lot of server community -- I know it has on AB, with crafting raids and all. While I'm sure the "crafting raids" will become rare as time passes I imagine they may become scheduled events instead. And on a regular server I can't see how it's so bad to rely on other crafters. Maybe AB's community is just so good and maybe some aren't so great but in a time span of say a week I can't see any way to *not* find all 9 crafters willing to make it for cheap.<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>AratornCalahn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Maybe someone in charge in that particular area of immigration is a EQ2 player and has 9 crafters on the same account and feeling bitter?</blockquote>Heheh ... let's hope not!  But if so, I heard rumours Beghn's looking for a job.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>No! Not that! Anything but that! AHHHHHHHHHHH *jumps off a cliff into lava... and slowly takes fire damage*OK, not as dramatic... stupid lava...

[Domino]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">I have many reasons to be against the quest implementation as it stands, not just one. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'll list the top ones:</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">1. It's not a true judge of your crafting ability.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">2. There's only one way to achieve the goal. It's a limiting and artificial mechanic.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. It's undeniably a slight at those people who have worked 9 times harder* than anyone with a single crafter.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">4. In the future, in my opinion, it will be harder to get all the required items due to lack of interest on the part of others.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote>All right, out of curiosity and perhaps for future reference:1. but what would be?  You already have to make a level 100 item with a higher than usual fail rate not using your "best" class buffs.  Without rewriting the entire mechanics of crafting, what would be a "true judge"?  As someone earlier posted, this quest already makes you craft your normal stuff, has you harvest, tests your knowledge of how to get around Norrath, tests your nerve and ability to sneak around, tests you on a level 100 recipe, tests your patience in gaining faction, tests your knowledge of your community and ability to work with others ... what more do you feel is missing?2. this being a game created with the use of artificial mechanics, our quests do tend to be like that ... I'm unclear how this differs from any other quest however.  What would be an example of another quest that's different?3. I find this entirely and 110% deniable.  It isn't a slight in the tiniest bit.  It treats them exactly and 100% the same as every other crafter.  What it doesn't do is say "ooh you're special" and give them any advantage either ... but it in no way slights anybody.4. time will tell on this one.

[Motown]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>Crafting isn't about community, it's about crafting and supplying desirable products; it's about business</b> (and I think you'll find that Richard Branson is not friendly with Rupert Murdoch).</span></blockquote>Part of business, an essential part, is networking.  Part of business is supplier and distributor relationships.  Branson mightn't be buds with Rupert, but you can bet he has the odd game of golf with his fuel suppliers, telcoms partners and others who contribute to the running of the empire.Personally, I think this quest is more like real business than any other aspect of crafting,  as much as our inner control-freak may rebel.

[Kain-UK]

<p>I don't know about other crafters, but the response to this quest on the AB server has been very good.</p><p>Every crafter i've ran across has only asked for help in making an item in return and fuel costs for their time... and that's it. No-one is charging stupid prices for actually making the items. The earring is very nice, but I have to admit that I was slightly disappointed with the cloak. I only use it in my apperance slot or if i'm crafting. Yeah, I know it's a reward for a crafting quest, but it would've been nice if it was slightly more useful. The heat resist isn't useful for me as a 78 Berserker, so I continue to use my Garanel's Mantle. A + to your crafting skill would've been very nice, IMO.</p><p>However, getting one of every T8 rare rocked. I shipped the Incarnadine to my 80 weaponsmith, sent the fire emerald to my girlfriend who is a Warden so she can get an AD3 and used the loam to get one of my skills made. The rest got sold. I was a bit annoyed to see that the quest used rares though. Because of this... on a good day, ebon clusters are sitting at 4.5p. On a bad day, they're right up at about 9p. I don't know about other servers, but the amount of people doing this quest has made the nodes very contested. That doesn't even factor in the people who harvest JUST for cash.</p><p>That's pretty much my only complaint with this... the cloak reward and rare requirements.</p>

[SilkenKidden]

<p>I know some people on Butcherblock have completed this quest, but I've been broadcasting requests for crafters to help for two days now.  I still need five of the items.  </p><p>The OP is right.  It's a bottleneck.  </p><p>One nice thing, no one is charging to make the Pudding item, although the prices for the rares are through the roof.  </p><p>Of course, the RNG is working correctly as it always does.  It is just pure luck that for the last day and half I've been harvesting everything in the Lavastorm and Everfrost harvesting areas and have gotten many, many figwarts but no ebon.  And, of course, figwart is going for about 50 g on the brpler while ebon is 2 p or more.  </p><p>Every time someone complains that certain rares are rarer than others, some one else explains to us ninnies that the RNG is node blind.  Ok.  So we need more ebon nodes.  How can we get them?  All I can do is clear the area of everything and then wait for the stuff to repop, in the same ratio it previously did, which leaves ebon more scarce than hen's teeth.  Can't this be changed? </p>

[MaelieJade]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">I have many reasons to be against the quest implementation as it stands, not just one. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'll list the top ones:</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">1. It's not a true judge of your crafting ability.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote>All right, out of curiosity and perhaps for future reference:1. but what would be?  You already have to make a level 100 item with a higher than usual fail rate not using your "best" class buffs.  Without rewriting the entire mechanics of crafting, what would be a "true judge"?  As someone earlier posted, this quest already makes you craft your normal stuff, has you harvest, tests your knowledge of how to get around Norrath, tests your nerve and ability to sneak around, tests you on a level 100 recipe, tests your patience in gaining faction, tests your knowledge of your community and ability to work with others ... what more do you feel is missing?</blockquote><span style="color: #660099;"><b><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Bravo. Domino, you make a fantastic argument.<span style="font-size: x-small;"></span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">(To be fair: I have not done this epic yet, because my crafter isn't 80 yet - BUT, I have read all about it and it seems fine to me, and I am very excited to get to 80 and do this quest. The rare part is a bit daunting, and I'll probably be really annoyed, but I can deal with that. I guess it also helps that I have a guild full of very nice people who I'm more than sure will help me out with the "community" part. I have to say that on the AB server, people seem really helpful a good deal of the time, and I can't even imagine asking someone to craft something for me and asking for anything more than fuel cost, raws and an optional tip. Maybe the other servers are full of jerks. =P )</span></b></span>

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite></cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. It's undeniably a slight at those people who have worked 9 times harder* than anyone with a single crafter.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote></blockquote>Excuse you? Because you chose to have 9 crafters that  means you worked harder then those who chose to have 1 or 2? Thats bull. Having more in game time over those people who say work more then you does NOT mean you worked harder at your craft.I am with Domino on this one and will take that bet.. I have had no problem logging my crafters in for anyone who needs something made, even for strangers.  Just because YOU do, doesn't mean the majority does also.

[TaleraRis]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>tests your knowledge of your community and ability to work with others </blockquote>How does it test this, though? How is jumping into chat and asking for a certain crafter or doing a /who a test of your knowledge of the community? Which is what you would need to do to find a crafter to make the item for you unless you already had those crafters in your repertoire of people you knew.Then there's the idea of testing your ability to work with others. How is this quest testing that? You add items to a box, they add items to a box, and you get your item. Do you have to do anything in tandem with the other person? No. Do you have to work together with the person, fighting durability losses and trying to inch out every bit of progress you can? No. You stand there while someone else does all the work and then you have your item. How can that conceivably be working with others?As to the idea of there being quests like this in game so it's okay for this quest to be like this - why? I personally find it incredibly unfun when I'm boxed into having to do something one way. Anyone who's seen me post in the adventuring area knows I'm a strong advocate for multiple ways to accomplish the same or similar ends in regards to quests. So to see the mindset that I rail against constantly in regards to adventuring starting to be included in crafting is depressing and disheartening.

[NalerianC]

<p>Gwyn:  </p><p>You must be describing another game.  I think that Domino has developed a strong series of quests that involves most if not all aspects of what crafting currently is in the game.  The comments about fighting durability with another player and having essentially group encounters for crafting simply does not exist in the current game mechanics.  I would be intriqued by such a system if it were put into place.  As long as we are changing mechanics, I also believe that the way harvesting works in Vanguard is something that all games should adopt and include.  Group participation in harvesting materials!!!  </p><p>But with the current game mechanics available, Domino did a fantastic job.  Huzzah!</p><p>(Domino:  Since you are learning all the aspects of the development team though, get working on group crafting and group harvesting!!  =P )</p>

[Ssyzr]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">1. It's not a true judge of your crafting ability.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">2. There's only one way to achieve the goal. It's a limiting and artificial mechanic.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. It's undeniably a slight at those people who have worked 9 times harder* than anyone with a single crafter.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">4. In the future, in my opinion, it will be harder to get all the required items due to lack of interest on the part of others.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote><p>1- By "crafting ability" you mean clicking three buttons right?</p><p>2- One way to achieve a goal? You mean like harvest/broker? Or are you saying there are multiple ways to click three buttons?</p><p>3- Those with 9 trades have 9 opportunities to get the epics. Simple.</p><p>4- In the future it will be harder to get the items due to lack of interest. Obviously! Has there been a time in any MMORPG where outdated quests/items/raids/groups/named/instances/epics aren't harder to get when the community moves on to other content?</p><p><b> Mr Wolfie wrote: "We are all here to do as many quests as we can"</b></p><p>Thats simply not true. Some are here to raid, group, tradeskills, farm, decorate, solo, writs, collect shinies... I think Domino has done a great job of trying to include multiple aspects of playstyles in a single quest. </p><p><b>Mr. Wolfie wrote: "Players not doing them is a failure of the games primary function"</b></p><p>Players<b> are</b> doing them. So may I suggest that its a failure of some players to overcome one of the games many challenges? Providing a challenge is also one of the games 'primary' functions.</p>

[MrWolfie]

I love how nobody bothers to read a full post.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">I have many reasons to be against the quest implementation as it stands, not just one. </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'll list the top ones:</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">1. It's not a true judge of your crafting ability.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">2. There's only one way to achieve the goal. It's a limiting and artificial mechanic.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. It's undeniably a slight at those people who have worked 9 times harder* than anyone with a single crafter.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">4. In the future, in my opinion, it will be harder to get all the required items due to lack of interest on the part of others.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote>All right, out of curiosity and perhaps for future reference:1. but what would be?  You already have to make a level 100 item with a higher than usual fail rate not using your "best" class buffs.  Without rewriting the entire mechanics of crafting, what would be a "true judge"?  As someone earlier posted, this quest already makes you craft your normal stuff, has you harvest, tests your knowledge of how to get around Norrath, tests your nerve and ability to sneak around, tests you on a level 100 recipe, tests your patience in gaining faction, tests your knowledge of your community and ability to work with others ... what more do you feel is missing?<span style="color: #ff6600;">I enjoyed most of the quest, although I never felt my ability to craft things perfectly was being tested... in my previous post I wrote an example for a provisioner:</span><span style="color: #ff6600;">"perhaps having to make food for an ogre, and if you don't make it with 100% in both progress and durability, then the ogre beats you to death (not that the quest tells you this beforehand)."Perhaps we could do something with the durability as a result to test craftsmanship?What if the pre-requisite were the last 50% of the 4th durability bar, not over or under.In the case of scholars, the NPC asks for a spell to be made, the scholar makes it (100% progress and 45% of the last bar of durability). The quest dings. The scholar takes it back to the NPC, who says, "OK. Cast it."The scroll is read, and... BOOM!It goes off in the scholar's face!When it's finally crafted with a durability between 50% and 100% of the 4th bar, it works fine and the quest moves on.There's lots that can be done to actually test skill. Maybe timers which penalise if a task is made too quickly and too slowly.Maybe talking to NPCs and selecting recipes based on what they say, rather than an immediate requirement to make a specific item.Even so, remember, I had some fun doing the quest as it stands.But dodging librarians doesn't make me a "master" crafter. (or cheating to avoid them, like it suggests in the eq2i article. I'm really against that!)</span>2. this being a game created with the use of artificial mechanics, our quests do tend to be like that ... I'm unclear how this differs from any other quest however.  What would be an example of another quest that's different?<span style="color: #ff6600;">This one is artificially restrictive.A quest that requires a crafted item can be commissioned, bought, crafted oneself, crafted by a friend, crafted by another of one's own characters. But not here, this step excludes all but one of these solutions.It's exactly the same as not being able to traverse Nek Forest when it first opened, continually bumping into "walls" in the middle of the zone (or so it feels to me). There's a way I *could* do this, but the game is preventing me....I already know other crafters (be they on my account or not), why do I have to be present when the item is made?</span>3. I find this entirely and 110% deniable.  It isn't a slight in the tiniest bit.  It treats them exactly and 100% the same as every other crafter.  What it doesn't do is say "ooh you're special" and give them any advantage either ... but it in no way slights anybody.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Of course it does.It specifically and, imo, deliberately excludes them from using their own crafters. It forces them to seek out another person, which means that, in this case, their other 8 crafter characters are not good enough. You're saying not all characters are of equal value ~ only the ones with another person behind them is required for this step.I can see why they'd be pretty upset.</span>4. time will tell on this one.</blockquote>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Motown wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>Crafting isn't about community, it's about crafting and supplying desirable products; it's about business</b> (and I think you'll find that Richard Branson is not friendly with Rupert Murdoch).</span></blockquote>Part of business, an essential part, is networking.  Part of business is supplier and distributor relationships.  Branson mightn't be buds with Rupert, but you can bet he has the odd game of golf with his fuel suppliers, telcoms partners and others who contribute to the running of the empire.Personally, I think this quest is more like real business than any other aspect of crafting,  as much as our inner control-freak may rebel.</blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;">I already have my network of supplies and distribution. Why do I need to talk to my competitors?Because this quest forces me to take business to them.Other crafters are NOT suppliers or distributors. They're competitors.If the devs do follow your advice, maybe the next quest line will be for us to score some drugs for the wholesaler, employ the banker's useless cousin, or indeed, take Jayak out golfing......but, remember, they're all NPCs.</span>

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. It's undeniably a slight at those people who have worked 9 times harder* than anyone with a single crafter.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote></blockquote>Excuse you? Because you chose to have 9 crafters that  means you worked harder then those who chose to have 1 or 2? Thats bull. Having more in game time over those people who say work more then you does NOT mean you worked harder at your craft.I am with Domino on this one and will take that bet.. I have had no problem logging my crafters in for anyone who needs something made, even for strangers.  Just because YOU do, doesn't mean the majority does also.</blockquote>Oh, Sidori, Sidori. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" />I quote from my post:<span style="color: #ff6600;">"I don't have 9 crafters on one account."</span>also:<span style="color: #ff6600;">"*small exaggeration, but you'll forgive me"</span>I never said that a person who has 9 crafters worked harder at their craft. Please don't misinterpret my words.A person who has one crafter has worked equally as another with the same crafter, to get to level 80. Some may have worked harder on writs and faction too.This does not make one person more righteous than another, or more deserving than another.However, a person who has ready access to all 9 crafter types should also not be passed over simply because the designer of a quest wants you to seek out another <i>person</i>.That's like saying that players matter more than characters. And, in my opinion, they don't. One characters' worth is the same as another, and who (or what) is behind the keyboard is entirely another matter, one perhaps, that the game itself should never address. 

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Ssyzr@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1- By "crafting ability" you mean clicking three buttons right?<span style="color: #ff6600;">Yes. Now can you design a quest that will test the ability to craft an item perfectly? Because I did in my earlier post, that you obviously didn't read all of.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">And, btw, there's six buttons.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p>2- One way to achieve a goal? You mean like harvest/broker? Or are you saying there are multiple ways to click three buttons?<span style="color: #ff6600;">Well, obviously, there are multiple ways to click three buttons. Duh. Maybe as many as 81 different ways. And there's six buttons, so more ways again.But we're not talking about buttons. Please read the whole thread before you come back to this one.</span></p><p>3- Those with 9 trades have 9 opportunities to get the epics. Simple.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Nope. Those 9 will have to seek out, at least, nine other real life people.They will be more inconvenienced than any other crafter, by nine times.When they could have used the resources they already had.</span>4- In the future it will be harder to get the items due to lack of interest. Obviously! Has there been a time in any MMORPG where outdated quests/items/raids/groups/named/instances/epics aren't harder to get when the community moves on to other content?<span style="color: #ff6600;">Well, nearly everyone else seems to be in denial about this.I'm glad we agree about something.</span><b> Mr Wolfie wrote: "We are all here to do as many quests as we can"</b></p><p>Thats simply not true. Some are here to raid, group, tradeskills, farm, decorate, solo, writs, collect shinies... I think Domino has done a great job of trying to include multiple aspects of playstyles in a single quest.<span style="color: #ff6600;">LOL. There is no-one playing this game who has never done a quest.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">It's the name of the game.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">Don't pick hairs. Or quote out of context. This is a response to the lame idea that we simply "avoid doing this quest" instead of getting it improved.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> </span></p><p><b>Mr. Wolfie wrote: "Players not doing them is a failure of the games primary function"</b></p><p>Players<b> are</b> doing them. So may I suggest that its a failure of some players to overcome one of the games many challenges? Providing a challenge is also one of the games 'primary' functions.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Again, a direct response to posters suggesting that we don't do quests that have components that we find upsetting, distasteful or just plain wrong, instead of attempting to show why there's a problem and what can be done to rectify it (aka improve the quest).</span></p></blockquote>

[MrWolfie]

I'm going to do the dishes and have a cup of tea.Thank you all for your input <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[katalmach]

<p>Okay, so I got about half of my updates done yesterday thanks to some lovely people. However, I still hate the commission part of the quest and maintain that it's poorly designed. First of all, it's quite time consuming. All week long, I've seen people offering to make the items I needed - but I couldn't get it done, because I was busy, in an instance, in a group, on the other side of the world, about to go to uni class, about to make dinner. If the items were tradable, I could've sent a tell or a mail to the crafters offering, and have them make the item (and me make theirs) and mail them to each other. But because we have to actually meet up and be in the same zone, I've had to pass up on several people offering (as well as several people asking me to make theirs). That sucks, because I hate to miss opportunities almost as much as I hate having to decline people who are in the same boat as me. Not to mention that I will have to go through all of this again, on multiple crafters... it's really quite a huge energy drain of a quest, to be honest.</p><p>So Domino asked what makes a test of your tradeskill abilities. Well, my most favourite tradeskill quest ever was the cook-off competitions in Suikoden II. What made them so great was that you were presented with an NPC opponent as well as an NPC jury. Now, the members of the jury all had different personalities, and it was up to you to talk to them and find out what they might like through dialogue hints. Then you picked three courses - depending on what you think the jury would like - from a list of many, and then you made those dishes. In EQ2, I'd have the cooking (or whatever other craft you're doing) be against the clock, and the results from the jury would depend on if you picked recipes the jury would like, and how well you made them. That would test your deductive skills, your crafting speed and your crafting skill. Heck, maybe even let us combine different ingredients from a list to make a whole new item - and test our knowledge/instinct of what ingredients would make the best product.</p><p>(By the way, if I had made the rewards, I'd have put something more fun on the cloak, too. Like "Third Bar = Fourth Bar", "5% chance to get back all resources as well as product", "5% chance to make double the product", "5% higher chance of getting a rare reaction" or something like that.)</p><p>I'm perfectly fine with having to interact with the community to get my updates - I just wish that you could get the updates via the broker/mail too, because it really is a pain having to actually be there when the item is crafted.</p><p>I would like to say that I think it's great that this quest line was put into the game, and the rewards - for what they are - are lovely. I just don't like this one tiny little part of the quest one bit - everything else is great.</p>

[Ssyzr]

Ssyzr previously wrote: <span style="color: #0000cc;">1- By "crafting ability" you mean clicking three buttons right?</span> <span style="color: #ff9900;"> Yes. Now can you design a quest that will test the ability to craft an item perfectly? Because I did in my earlier post, that you obviously didn't read all of. And, btw, there's six buttons. </span> Sure I can design a quest. Why bother however when there is a portion of the epic that does in fact require you to make items, I suppose you could quibble and say that that particular portion should be timed. I am curious if you could point out a particular reason why you feel that I did not read all of your post? Is it that I did not address each and every sentence? I could do so if that would help you from making incorrect assumptions. And BTW - there are 6 buttons, 3 of which work at one time. So be it 6 buttons or 600 - only 3 are relevant to the discussion. Ssyzr previously wrote: <span style="color: #0000cc;">2- One way to achieve a goal? You mean like harvest/broker? Or are you saying there are multiple ways to click three buttons?</span> <span style="color: #ff9900;"> Well, obviously, there are multiple ways to click three buttons. Duh. Maybe as many as 81 different ways. And there's six buttons, so more ways again. But we're not talking about buttons. Please read the whole thread before you come back to this one. </span> First you assume that I have not read your post, now you assume that I have not read the thread. You suggested an alternate option for how you feel the quest should have been done, fine. Perhaps someone will like the idea and a future quest will reflect just what you suggested. This however does nothing to change the fact that <b>this</b> quest had a <b>different</b> idea that you simply object to. I am glad you don't wish to talk about buttons. I was attempting to make the subtle point that in the process of clicking those three buttons the impied challenges that you suggest are nonexistent. I will be more clear however : <u>making something in tradeskills is absurdly easy and any challenge that you can imagine is simply not challenging</u>. If in fact the developers do find a better method to increasing the "skill" required for trades I will be the first to congradulate them. For now however it appears they are stuck with the mechanic that exists currently, and are trying to find new and innovative ways to make crafting a challenge. Ssyzr previously wrote: <span style="color: #0000cc;">3- Those with 9 trades have 9 opportunities to get the epics. Simple. </span> <span style="color: #ff9900;"> Nope. Those 9 will have to seek out, at least, nine other real life people. They will be more inconvenienced than any other crafter, by nine times. When they could have used the resources they already had. </span> You mean players will have to seek other players to accomplish goals? This is a disturbingly familiar idea, perhaps raids and groups could be considered for a valid analogy? I remember way back when I raided with 71 of my competitors for 1 piece of gear. Personally I found it enjoyable. Ssyzr previously wrote: <span style="color: #0000cc;">4- In the future it will be harder to get the items due to lack of interest. Obviously! Has there been a time in any MMORPG where outdated quests/items/raids/groups/named/instances/epics aren't harder to get when the community moves on to other content?</span> <span style="color: #ff9900;"> Well, nearly everyone else seems to be in denial about this. I'm glad we agree about something. </span> It doesn't bolster your point however. You appear to be in denial that this is in fact a MMORPG. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> </span> <b> Mr Wolfie wrote: "We are all here to do as many quests as we can"</b> Ssyzr previously wrote: <span style="color: #000033;"><span style="color: #0000cc;">Thats simply not true. Some are here to raid, group, tradeskills, farm, decorate, solo, writs, collect shinies... I think Domino has done a great job of trying to include multiple aspects of playstyles in a single quest.</span> </span> <span style="color: #ff9900;"> LOL. There is no-one playing this game who has never done a quest. It's the name of the game. Don't pick hairs. Or quote out of context. This is a response to the lame idea that we simply "avoid doing this quest" instead of getting it improved. </span> True, everyone has done a quest. The fact remains that everyone has done all or many of the examples that I listed previously. So your assertion that "we are all here to do as many quests as we can" is simply false. The fact of the matter is that a majority of the population do in fact avoid quests. People do not scour the game in an attempt to complete each and every quest available to them. If your claims that everyone is here to do as many quests as possible, then the top 100 questers would be vastly different. Do not accuse me of picking hairs or quoting out of context when I am directly responding to your incorrect claims that we are all here to do as many quests as we can. I can attest to my assertion based soley on personal experience if need be, I do play this game to do each and every quest possible and I have met very few people who do the same. I will once again suggest a review of the top 100 on your server to see what I mean. <b>Mr. Wolfie wrote: "Players not doing them is a failure of the games primary function"</b> Ssyzr previously wrote: <span style="color: #0000cc;">Players<b> are</b> doing them. So may I suggest that its a failure of some players to overcome one of the games many challenges? Providing a challenge is also one of the games 'primary' functions.</span> <span style="color: #ff9900;"> Again, a direct response to posters suggesting that we don't do quests that have components that we find upsetting, distasteful or just plain wrong, instead of attempting to show why there's a problem and what can be done to rectify it (aka improve the quest). </span> You have not shown any portion of the quest to be upsetting, distasteful, or wrong for the community as a whole. If your claims of personal distastfulness had equal relevance to all the other folks who found parts of this game to be distastful we would not have a game. Did you know that some people do not like tradeskills, soloing, grouping, raiding, collecting shinies, doing writs, grinding, questing, decorating homes, using the broker, or playing alts? I did notice however on a different reply that you said: <b>Mr. Wolfie wrote: Other crafters are not suppliers or distributors. They are competitors.</b> Your inability to put aside your competitive nature for the furthering of a quest is an apparent weakness on your part. It is also a narrow minded opinion unless you are also pushing for EQ2 to become a completely solo game. Group and raid drops also "force" you to compete with other players for gear, money, and spells. Do you refuse to group with players if they share your same tradeskill? Do you refuse to help a guildy if they could someday be a competitor? If you can make 1 of 9 trades and need to seek out the other 8 - why are they competitors to you at all? If you have all 9 trades why can't you simply ask a person who does not sell the same items that you sell in the broker? Surely there is a tradeskiller that has done the epic but is not a direct competitor for your wares. Additionally; are you really on non-speaking terms with each and every person who sells the same wares as you? Do you refuse to buy from them if they are selling something you need/want?

[Motown]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Motown wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>Crafting isn't about community, it's about crafting and supplying desirable products; it's about business</b> (and I think you'll find that Richard Branson is not friendly with Rupert Murdoch).</span></blockquote>Part of business, an essential part, is networking.  Part of business is supplier and distributor relationships.  Branson mightn't be buds with Rupert, but you can bet he has the odd game of golf with his fuel suppliers, telcoms partners and others who contribute to the running of the empire.Personally, I think this quest is more like real business than any other aspect of crafting,  as much as our inner control-freak may rebel.</blockquote><b></b><span style="color: #ff6600;"><b>I already have my network of supplies and distribution. Why do I need to talk to my competitors?</b></span><span style="color: #ff6600;">Because this quest forces me to take business to them.</span></blockquote>Unless you hired an alchemist to make your solvent when you are yourself an alchemist, you didn't hire your competitors.  Your <i>character </i>as opposed to the a<i>ccount holder</i> is the business.  Unless you outsourced your own trade, you didn't hire your competitors.You do see the distinction, don't you?<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span style="color: #ff6600;">Other crafters are NOT suppliers or distributors. They're competitors.If the devs do follow your advice, maybe the next quest line will be for us to score some drugs for the wholesaler, employ the banker's useless cousin, or indeed, take Jayak out golfing......but, remember, they're all NPCs.</span></blockquote>Other crafters are suppliers when the supply you with things you cannot make yourself.  My alchemist doesn't compete with weaponsmiths.If one wants to argue from a somewhat realistic, business point of view,  I take it that you're assuming that an account (or two) covering the nine crafts makes one some kind of self-sufficient conglomerate who should be able to do this quest without any interaction with the world.  I would contend that one is not such an entity unless one has nine accounts and can produce in parallel.  The other eight crafts are unable to supply the ninth because they do not exist at that time.  My sage cannot supply my alchemist for the purpose of this quest because she does not exist at the time.  I have to shut down my alchemy operations to bring my sage enterprise online, as I have only one factory, capable of running one line at a time, but with the capability of producing nine lines of product.  Unless I can operate and interact all nine crafts simultaneously, I don't have "all bases covered" and, for the purposes of this quest which requires a cooperative key process, will have to outsource.It is possible, of course, to expand and buy another eight or so factories, thereby enabling all nine lines to run at once.  Then, and only then, can this quest be completed using in-house resources exclusively.

[Domino]

I think most of MrWolfie's comments have already been answered by others!  The suggested mechanisms like requiring exactly 50% durability through the 4th bar aren't currecntly possible without a code request change - you either get the product, or you don't, so far as our quest system can detect.  Trying to detect exact values of what bar was where and when would require a programming change which was not going to happen if this quest were to be out with the other epics -- and quite honestly I really can't see why we'd want to do this.  One critical success or failure at the wrong time and you'd fail the quest completely beyond your control and where is the fun in that?  This would just be annoying.Talking to NPCs to get 'hints' about what to make will only work for the first person to do it, and then it's straight to a spoiler site or in-game chat channels.  Look at the cloaks; they were a 'hidden' reward, you were supposed to remember that you promised Jayak you'd bring him news if you visited Rivervale, but your quest didn't prompt you to go back, and in all other ways it looked as if you'd finished your epic at step 5.  I imagine the first people through the quest took a while to figure out maybe they should go back to him.  But since then every walk-through tells you where to go and the chat channels have just been full of people saying "where do I get the cloak" and "don't forget to go back to the sarnak" etc.  Dialog hints don't work so well in a MMO, particularly one with so many spoiler sites as we have.  And even if the dialog was slightly random (which would take a LOT more work to do) there would still be a limited number of possible combinations and it wouldn't take too long for the spoiler sites to figure them all out.  Ask yourself how many of you actually sit and listen to the old guy in the courtyard in the Isle of Mara before answering the tower guards' questions ... and how many just do a Google search or check a spoiler site for the answers.  It's unfortunate, because I'd love to write lots of clever dialog for people to puzzle through, but that's just the way this type of game seems to work.As for the commissioning ...<cite>Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, so I got about half of my updates done yesterday thanks to some lovely people. However, I still hate the commission part of the quest and maintain that it's poorly designed. First of all, it's quite time consuming. All week long, I've seen people offering to make the items I needed - but I couldn't get it done, because I was busy, in an instance, in a group, on the other side of the world, about to go to uni class, about to make dinner. If the items were tradable, I could've sent a tell or a mail to the crafters offering, and have them make the item (and me make theirs) and mail them to each other. But because we have to actually meet up and be in the same zone, I've had to pass up on several people offering (as well as several people asking me to make theirs). That sucks, because I hate to miss opportunities almost as much as I hate having to decline people who are in the same boat as me. Not to mention that I will have to go through all of this again, on multiple crafters... it's really quite a huge energy drain of a quest, to be honest.</p></blockquote>As others have pointed out, crafters of other classes are not competitors, they are suppliers.  Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships with them is important.  Also, participating in the crafting community on a server strengthens it, imo.  Personal contact is more meaningful, and making that extra effort to complete your quest makes it mean more.  I'm all in favor of strengthening ties and making acquaintances within the community.  But that said, from another practical level this is also a quite deliberate time sink.  It takes time to colled 8 items in person.  That time sink would not exist if you bought them from the broker, or mailed them.  If the pieces were brokerable there would be dozens listed, it would take approximately 60 seconds to complete this step of the epic, and the entire quest could be done in under 2 hours from when you are given the starter - much less if you can port.  That's not an epic quest, that's a bit of running around and a shopping errand.  Of course, there are various other ways to increase the time commitment that a quest requires -- anybody doing some of the adventuring epics can tell you that.  Waaaaay more faction grinding, camping rare spawns/drops, requiring you to harvest 10 T8 rares, finding a group to escort you to a special crafting station ... these are all present in the adventuring epics.   Personally, I feel that making friends with 8 other crafting classes to commission the items needed is much more fun, less annoying, less artificial feeling, and much more fun, which is why this step is the way it is.  If it were changed so the items were tradeable, this quest would be trivially fast and easy and not worthy of the rewards you get unless some other requirement were added -- such as having to personally harvest all those T5 rares after getting the quest, for example.  The quest is supposed to be challenging in many ways, and being willing to commit time and effort in some way is one of those challenges and one of the reasons that we can give nice rewards at the end.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />  Edit to add:  and yes, some of the adventuring epics require you to harvest for HOURS in T8.  And I haven't heard them complaining "omg I'm an adventurer not a harvester".  So be very happy the tradeskill quest doesn't require the same ... it easily could have been justified!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Illmarr]

Domino is soooo my hero!

[MrWolfie]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>The suggested mechanisms like requiring exactly 50% durability through the 4th bar aren't currecntly possible without a code request change - you either get the product, or you don't, so far as our quest system can detect. <span style="color: #ff6600;">But not impossible. And even so, just an alternative idea.I'm not suggesting you implement my quest ideas, but you asked me what I thought could have been done...</span>Trying to detect exact values of what bar was where and when would require a programming change which was not going to happen if this quest were to be out with the other epics -- and quite honestly I really can't see why we'd want to do this.  One critical success or failure at the wrong time and you'd fail the quest completely beyond your control and where is the fun in that?  This would just be annoying.<span style="color: #ff6600;">And, yet, a truer judge of mastercraftsmanship I can't think of.Crafting items is what it's about, not how many friends I have in game.Perhaps also, in the event of failure, having the patience to get an item just right is also something a "master" crafter should have.</span>Talking to NPCs to get 'hints' about what to make will only work for the first person to do it, and then it's straight to a spoiler site or in-game chat channels.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Not everyone checks the spoilers first. And you shouldn't be designing quests for people who do. If someone wants to "cheat", they're only spoiling it for themselves. Not to mention, it never stopped people mentoring to defeat your trickery in the library.</span>As for the commissioning ...<cite>Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, so I got about half of my updates done yesterday thanks to some lovely people. However, I still hate the commission part of the quest and maintain that it's poorly designed. First of all, it's quite time consuming. All week long, I've seen people offering to make the items I needed - but I couldn't get it done, because I was busy, in an instance, in a group, on the other side of the world, about to go to uni class, about to make dinner. If the items were tradable, I could've sent a tell or a mail to the crafters offering, and have them make the item (and me make theirs) and mail them to each other. But because we have to actually meet up and be in the same zone, I've had to pass up on several people offering (as well as several people asking me to make theirs). That sucks, because I hate to miss opportunities almost as much as I hate having to decline people who are in the same boat as me. Not to mention that I will have to go through all of this again, on multiple crafters... it's really quite a huge energy drain of a quest, to be honest.</p></blockquote>As others have pointed out, crafters of other classes are not competitors, they are suppliers.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Beg to differ.Every other player, adventurer or crafter, I'm in competition with. What's the point of EQ2Players.com if not to show how much better someone is than anyone else?There are league tables for everything, deaths, money, discoveries, recipes known.As players, we're all in competition with each other...(...especially since interdependency was removed from tradeskilling.)</span>That's not an epic quest, that's a bit of running around and a shopping errand.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Irrespective of how long it takes, that's a good d escription of the quest as it stands.It still does n't test me as a crafter. </span> Of course, there are various other ways to increase the time commitment that a quest requires -- anybody doing some of the adventuring epics can tell you that.<span style="color: #ff6600;">What's that? Thank your lucky stars this quest isn't more annoying?!?You want to compare your quest to others that you think we'll find annoying.Well, I think you're on a winner there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" />There are some abominable quests in game. You're right; this isn't one of them.Although, at least, with the adventuring epics, we won't be doing the same quest nine times over and hitting the same bottleneck each time.</span>Personally, I feel that making friends with 8 other crafting classes to commission the items needed is much more fun, less annoying, less artificial feeling, and much more fun, which is why this step is the way it is.<span style="color: #ff6600;">But in reality, these people are friends with me for exactly as long as it takes me to make their item. Which is 30 seconds.These people aren't my friends. Not now, not later. (and vice-versa)</span>If it were changed so the items were tradeable, this quest would be trivially fast and easy and not worthy of the rewards you get unless some other requirement were added -- such as having to personally harvest all those T5 rares after getting the quest, for example.<span style="color: #ff6600;">I might have preferred that.(I'll leave a bit of space here at the bottom so other people can say they wouldn't prefer harvesting.)</span></blockquote>

[MaelieJade]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I feel that making friends with 8 other crafting classes to commission the items needed is <b>much more fun</b>, less annoying, less artificial feeling, <b>and much more fun</b>, which is why this step is the way it is. </blockquote>Domino, do you really think it's <i>that </i>fun?Honestly.Reading this thread is starting to feel like watching someone beat a dead horse.

[Wallzak]

<cite>Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, so I got about half of my updates done yesterday thanks to some lovely people. However, I still hate the commission part of the quest and maintain that it's poorly designed. First of all, it's quite time consuming. All week long, I've seen people offering to make the items I needed - but I couldn't get it done, because I was busy, in an instance, in a group, on the other side of the world, about to go to uni class, about to make dinner. If the items were tradable, I could've sent a tell or a mail to the crafters offering, and have them make the item (and me make theirs) and mail them to each other. But because we have to actually meet up and be in the same zone, I've had to pass up on several people offering (as well as several people asking me to make theirs). That sucks, because I hate to miss opportunities almost as much as I hate having to decline people who are in the same boat as me. Not to mention that I will have to go through all of this again, on multiple crafters... it's really quite a huge energy drain of a quest, to be honest.</p><p>So Domino asked what makes a test of your tradeskill abilities. Well, my most favourite tradeskill quest ever was the cook-off competitions in Suikoden II. What made them so great was that you were presented with an NPC opponent as well as an NPC jury. Now, the members of the jury all had different personalities, and it was up to you to talk to them and find out what they might like through dialogue hints. Then you picked three courses - depending on what you think the jury would like - from a list of many, and then you made those dishes. In EQ2, I'd have the cooking (or whatever other craft you're doing) be against the clock, and the results from the jury would depend on if you picked recipes the jury would like, and how well you made them. That would test your deductive skills, your crafting speed and your crafting skill. Heck, maybe even let us combine different ingredients from a list to make a whole new item - and test our knowledge/instinct of what ingredients would make the best product.</p><p>(By the way, if I had made the rewards, I'd have put something more fun on the cloak, too. Like "Third Bar = Fourth Bar", "5% chance to get back all resources as well as product", "5% chance to make double the product", "5% higher chance of getting a rare reaction" or something like that.)</p><p>I'm perfectly fine with having to interact with the community to get my updates - I just wish that you could get the updates via the broker/mail too, because it really is a pain having to actually be there when the item is crafted.</p><p>I would like to say that I think it's great that this quest line was put into the game, and the rewards - for what they are - are lovely. I just don't like this one tiny little part of the quest one bit - everything else is great.</p></blockquote><looks at his monitor... baffled...>Hey Domino, next time, make it so it's truly an epic experience, make it so you have to have all nine crafters available... at the same time, in a raid. (when I got to that stage, I was relieved that I could do it... one person at a time, when I could find them, as oppose to the adventurer version who you need a whole group, together, at the same time)Come on people... I'm busy doing something else?  Give me a break!Next... the adventurers are going to be asking for updates for quests remotely... because I'm too busy crafting to do a COA update. Or even better... "Hey Domino... I'm too cheap to pay my SOE subscription... can you take me to level 80 and give me my epic just because I think I deserve it??" /turns off sarcasmDomino, the quest line was great... I would even argue too easy.  I was thinking last night as I was doing the original 10 and 10 combines in the watch, "shouldn't this be timed... like a rush order... that would be a test of skill." (and for those who don't think there is skill involved, when you do commissioned work, watch how some people whip it out fast... while others take forever)Or better, make it so the quest line requires at least one of each main classes (outfitter etc)

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Wallzak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Come on people... I'm busy doing something else?  Give me a break!</blockquote>CASUAL. This is a casual game. Chillax!Getting things done when you want to.Not reliant on others.Unplanned.Yes. If a person also happens to be in a group deep in COA then they cannot leave to go do another quest. At least, as Domino said, if the harvesting was a requirement, it could be done without recourse to other players (who, imo and that of some others, will be a problem down the line when no-one wants to have anything to do with this quest ~ it's not like we casuals can grey this part out later).Not only that, but this person is getting tells from other crafters to come help them and, as much as they want to, they cannot because they're stuck in a dungeon. Does that help make a relationship friendlier, having to say "no, sorry, I'm busy"? Yeah, that's just what people who want to help others want to be saying to improve their relationships and make new friends.The player isn't saying they won't make the item. They're complaining about the process of comission ing as a quest update. They're not complaining about communicating with other players. They're complaining about not being able to help out, when normally they could.They're not complaining about not having a update quest "now" button either. But they are complaining that time sinks have no place in modern gaming.And I'm 100% in agreement.

[katalmach]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p>Okay, so I got about half of my updates done yesterday thanks to some lovely people. However, I still hate the commission part of the quest and maintain that it's poorly designed. First of all, it's quite time consuming. All week long, I've seen people offering to make the items I needed - but I couldn't get it done, because I was busy, in an instance, in a group, on the other side of the world, about to go to uni class, about to make dinner. If the items were tradable, I could've sent a tell or a mail to the crafters offering, and have them make the item (and me make theirs) and mail them to each other. But because we have to actually meet up and be in the same zone, I've had to pass up on several people offering (as well as several people asking me to make theirs). That sucks, because I hate to miss opportunities almost as much as I hate having to decline people who are in the same boat as me. Not to mention that I will have to go through all of this again, on multiple crafters... it's really quite a huge energy drain of a quest, to be honest.</p></blockquote>As others have pointed out, crafters of other classes are not competitors, they are suppliers.  Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships with them is important.  Also, participating in the crafting community on a server strengthens it, imo.  Personal contact is more meaningful, and making that extra effort to complete your quest makes it mean more.  I'm all in favor of strengthening ties and making acquaintances within the community.  But that said, from another practical level this is also a quite deliberate time sink.  It takes time to colled 8 items in person.  That time sink would not exist if you bought them from the broker, or mailed them.  If the pieces were brokerable there would be dozens listed, it would take approximately 60 seconds to complete this step of the epic, and the entire quest could be done in under 2 hours from when you are given the starter - much less if you can port.  That's not an epic quest, that's a bit of running around and a shopping errand.  Of course, there are various other ways to increase the time commitment that a quest requires -- anybody doing some of the adventuring epics can tell you that.  Waaaaay more faction grinding, camping rare spawns/drops, requiring you to harvest 10 T8 rares, finding a group to escort you to a special crafting station ... these are all present in the adventuring epics.   Personally, I feel that making friends with 8 other crafting classes to commission the items needed is much more fun, less annoying, less artificial feeling, and much more fun, which is why this step is the way it is.  If it were changed so the items were tradeable, this quest would be trivially fast and easy and not worthy of the rewards you get unless some other requirement were added -- such as having to personally harvest all those T5 rares after getting the quest, for example.  The quest is supposed to be challenging in many ways, and being willing to commit time and effort in some way is one of those challenges and one of the reasons that we can give nice rewards at the end.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />">  Edit to add:  and yes, some of the adventuring epics require you to harvest for HOURS in T8.  And I haven't heard them complaining "omg I'm an adventurer not a harvester".  So be very happy the tradeskill quest doesn't require the same ... it easily could have been justified!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>But crafters of other classes are NOT suppliers, and have not been since inter-dependency was removed, what three years ago? Since then other crafters have been people whose listings I see on the broker. Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships has not been important at all for a very long time, and outside of this quest, will continue to be unimportant. Heck, the harvest bots that dump 1000s of raws on the broker are far more important "suppliers" than any other crafter. And yes, if the items were tradable, there would hopefully be some on the broker - but guess what, the broker and the market are pretty huge parts of being a tradeskiller! I know I spend far more time on the broker - looking for deals, checking prices, seeing what's selling and what's not - than I ever will interacting physically with the rest of the crafting community. After all, what good is being a crafter if you can't SELL what you make? </p><p>Yes, it's a deliberate time sink. That is partly why I am complaining. Time sinks are not acceptable replacements for challenge or difficulty. If you had created the exact same quests, but instead of having to get 8 items from 8 other crafters, "Proof of the Pudding" required me to simply sit on my behind and wait for two weeks as a timer ticked down, that would be a time sink too. It would certainly make the quest more "difficult" and require more "time and effort" spent on it, but would it be good quest design? Would it be FUN? No, not really, and neither is "Proof in the Pudding". Yes, I realize that some people had fun teaming up to make these updates for each other - but guess what, you could've done that and had your fun even if the items were tradable. Or do you community-happy guys actually NEED to be forced into doing things the way you like to? If so, it kinda sucks that you force it on me too.</p><p>I will do the epic adventuring quest eventually (not quite 80 yet), but I have already heard and read all about it and know what is required of me - and guess what, it's far easier and more fun than the epic tradeskill quest. Harvest for hours in T8? Sure thing, yeah it's pain but at least I'm *doing* something (as opposed to spamming the chat channels looking for other crafters to make my updates, or sitting around monitoring the chat channels all day - I can't go DO anything, because I need to be available for the commissioning, or doing /who all woodworker 80 over and over all day long). By the way, if you haven't heard the complaints of "omg I'm an adventurer not a harvester", you obviously don't go to the same forums or listen to the same channels as I do. </p><p>I've been playing this game since release, and I've done pretty much every single non-raid (and some raid) quest out there on one character or another, so yeah, I know all about faction grinding, camping and grouping. Unfortunately, I don't think "but there's worse stuff out there!" is a particularly good reason to add a bottleneck like this to a quest. The one other quest in the game that I would liken it to is farming the eyes to finish the Peacock line - it's pretty much exactly the same in the way it deliberately annoys and wastes the player's time. I farmed loads of eyes, by the way, but never got to finish the quest line myself - and that's how it's looking to be with this quest too - me making loads of champagne and picnic baskets for others, but never (or at least not anytime soon) getting what I need - ONLY because of the way the quest is designed. It really does make me feel like, that despite all the work and effort I put in, I'm "always the bridesmaid (churning out champagne), never the bride (hello woodworkers/armorsmiths where are you?)". Bleh. </p>

[katalmach]

<cite>Wallzak wrote:</cite><blockquote><looks at his monitor... baffled...>Hey Domino, next time, make it so it's truly an epic experience, make it so you have to have all nine crafters available... at the same time, in a raid. (when I got to that stage, I was relieved that I could do it... one person at a time, when I could find them, as oppose to the adventurer version who you need a whole group, together, at the same time)Come on people... I'm busy doing something else?  Give me a break!Next... the adventurers are going to be asking for updates for quests remotely... because I'm too busy crafting to do a COA update. Or even better... "Hey Domino... I'm too cheap to pay my SOE subscription... can you take me to level 80 and give me my epic just because I think I deserve it??" /turns off sarcasmDomino, the quest line was great... I would even argue too easy.  I was thinking last night as I was doing the original 10 and 10 combines in the watch, "shouldn't this be timed... like a rush order... that would be a test of skill." (and for those who don't think there is skill involved, when you do commissioned work, watch how some people whip it out fast... while others take forever)Or better, make it so the quest line requires at least one of each main classes (outfitter etc)</blockquote><p>What's so baffling about being busy, exactly? I play a healer - when I come online, there will generally be people wanting me to go with them to some instance. Am I supposed to tell them "sorry, I'm going to sit around spamming channels until I get a crafter to make me something"? Am I supposed to go with the group, but then dump them, healer-less, inside a dungeon with a lockout when some crafter I need does come along? When someone asks me to make something, am I supposed to dump my group? When people ask me to come to a group which will get adventuring updates or loot that I need, am I supposed to stay stuck in Qeynos in the hope that maybe, just maybe, a friendly woodworker happens to pass by? </p><p>It doesn't compare to interrupting crafting for adventuring, because crafting generally takes place in one's hometown, or at least a friendly place with lots of connections. Crafting also doesn't give you lockouts, and if I decide to stop crafting to go get an adventuring update, I don't disappoint 5 other people. Crafting can be dropped any time you like, without penalty (unless you just drank a tradeskill xp potion, I guess), but dropping adventuring just like that does have penalties associated with it (I repeat, lockouts, disappointed group memebers, disappointed guildies that needed me, and to be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure your reputation would drop like a rock if you left a group to go craft. Whereas pretty much nobody would care if you took time out from crafting to adventure...).</p><p>The quest line was too easy, I agree with that, though I did enjoy what was there. Even "Proof in the Pudding" is easy - the only difficulty is finding someone to make my update. I would much rather still be out there, harvesting, making level 100 recipes, dodging red mobs, looking for clues as what to do next or doing timed recipes than SITTING doing NOTHING and HOPING that someone who can make my update will log on (it doesn't even compare to camping, because NPCs *will* spawn eventually. Who knows when a woodworker, who is 80, who has the quest, who isn't busy, who will make me my item, will log on?). To be honest, I would actually have preferred it if you DID need all nine crafters available at the same time, in a raid - because guess what, I'd have my nine updates by now and so would everybody else. There would be no inequality between those who got lucky/play in a good time slot/play in big guilds/play a rare crafter class/etc, because if a raid was needed, it would mean that if ONE person get the updates they need, so do everybody else that are there and participating.</p>

[Illmarr]

<p>What is baffling is the way some people come across. "I'm busy with some adventuring, just let me buy my crafting update (Or let me somehow get it exactly when I deem I have 5 spare minutes between the "real" gameplay of doing instances and am in Teren's Grasp where other crafters have been hanging out so alignment is not an issue)." This is a <b><i><u>crafting</u></i></b> epic! This is a game that requires you to make some choices. You have to choose between running CoA or running Maiden' or running Vaults. You can't do all those things at the same time. Should you be entitled to buy your CoA updates because you were already in a Chelsith group and could not join the one advertising for a healer for CoA? You people need to stop thinking of the crafting epic the way many of you think of crafting in general...something to do as a sidebar during your adventure downtime. </p>

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is baffling is the way some people come across. "I'm busy with some adventuring, just let me buy my crafting update (Or let me somehow get it exactly when I deem I have 5 spare minutes between the "real" gameplay of doing instances and am in Teren's Grasp where other crafters have been hanging out so alignment is not an issue)." This is a <b><i><u>crafting</u></i></b> epic! This is a game that requires you to make some choices. You have to choose between running CoA or running Maiden' or running Vaults. You can't do all those things at the same time. Should you be entitled to buy your CoA updates because you were already in a Chelsith group and could not join the one advertising for a healer for CoA? You people need to stop thinking of the crafting epic the way many of you think of crafting in general...something to do as a sidebar during your adventure downtime. </p></blockquote>In full agreement with this quote..What it looks like to me is MrWolfie does not like Domino and is just trying to argue with her at this point and its getting highly frustrating to see, considering Domino has done alot for this community.

[Wallzak]

I'm not baffled at being busy, but rather people's attitude that this should be handed to them on a silver platter.  As an adventurer, people should understand the interdependancy of classes... in fact, adventuring is even harder.  If you don't have a tank and a healer... your heroic plans are really limited.  Several times i have sat around with my assassin looking for a chardock update... for hours.  Hey... can you make this easier please, maybe give me updates by killing rats in Temple street... that would be great.As an adventurer and crafter... I make decisions nightly... craft and make money, or work on a quest... do I epic tonight, or do a COA run for a chance at a Master or an item I want.  Because there is choice doesn't mean it should be easy.  I wanted my cloak... that means I passed up chances at working on my weapon epic to do that... it was my choice.  If you want to do a COA run, raid... whatever... don't be mad because Domino supplied us with what we were asking for... more challenge.It took me less than 2 hours over two days to get all 9 updates, and it was several days after it came out.  Park yourself in Teren's grasp and form yourself a crafting raid... I did it twice on two separate occasions.  THIS IS NOT THAT HARD PEOPLE <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Boyar]

<p>I don't know about the servers y'all are on, but the crosscrafting part has totally rocked on mine. Within a couple minutes of asking in 'good_crafting' I was directed to the tsepic channel someone had made up. A bunch of crafters had all decided to get together in TG and help each other. Thenceforth, TG(KP1) became the standard meeting place for helping folks through their epics. Every day new folks come through asking for help, getting directed, finding each other, and the 'old masters' jump in to fill gaps regularly. </p><p>Before this quest, the crafters were friendly enough, at least to say 'hiya' in crafting channel, but we never <i>knew</i> each other. Our crafters are now seriously more a community. Even raiders, whom many think of as standoffish, have been cycling through with the 'wow, I didn't know you crafted' and getting involved and social. </p><p>Some folks tried to charge for the commission early on, but they were always thwarted by kindly folk offering for free. If you're willing to ping the list periodically, you can get pretty much any class to come in within and hour. If you ask at a peak crafting time, you'll get inundated with offers to help.</p><p>Yes the quest isn't as hard as maybe it could be (I thought the lvl 100 rat trap was easier than most of my nest combines) but I'm okay with keeping it accessible. Though it's meant to be a major quest, I doubt that Domino was wanting to make it exclusive so only the top 10% of crafters would have a chance at it, like some folks clearly want it to be.</p><p>In the real world, manufacturing and sales is a competition to win over everyone else, but that really sucks for a game that wants everyone to have fun. I think what some of these folks really want, is something they can get but others can't so they can lord it over others how uber they are; I don't see crafting ever becoming a venue for that.</p>

[Cadori Seraphim]

Exactly, it took me little time to get all of the components I needed from people. And I do get that in 6 months time (or more) there wont be as many people wanting to get them done all at once, I still think it will be easy to find people to make the items needed. The only reason I see that someone would have an issue getting something commissioned for them, is if they are a [Removed for Content] with a bad attitude and have dug themselves into a really bad rep on their server. And even then, everyone doesnt know everyone else so there will always be someone able to make your items.

[Illmarr]

<p>*Gasps* Sidori nerfed her sig! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p><p>Edit: And now it's not</p>

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>*Gasps* Sidori nerfed her sig! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p><p>Edit: And now it's not</p></blockquote>LOL  No way I am getting rid of my cute lil waggly butt <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have my sig set to random rotate, using Seagoat's awesome tut over in the signature forum <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I just added to it hehe.

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>  Ask yourself how many of you actually sit and listen to the old guy in the courtyard in the Isle of Mara before answering the tower guards' questions ... and how many just do a Google search or check a spoiler site for the answers.  It's unfortunate, because I'd love to write lots of clever dialog for people to puzzle through, but that's just the way this type of game seems to work.</blockquote><p>I guess you are right that not many listen, but when I sense a puzzle is something that I can figure out logically (by listening to the game NPCs or simply reading the puzzle presented) I do spend time figuring it out.  I rally do enjoy such puzzles and quests in a game and wish there were more of them.  </p><p>And I have learned to read most of the NPC dialog for a hint of where to go next.  It really is easier and more fun than looking up each step on the spoiler boards.   Unfortunately, not all quests, espeially the earlier ones in the game, give sufficient direction.  Kunkark quests are very good in this regard. </p><p>So, please do write the clever dialog.  Some of us will appreciate it.  This crafting epic is one of the best written quest lines in the game.  I just hope TPTB in SOE don't cotton on to the fact and snatch you out of Tradeskilling.  </p><p>Now, hope you don't mind a trip down memory lane, but here are a few of my favorite puzzle type RPG games.   Krondor was a long time ago and full of great puzzles.   Star Wars KOTR (Knights of the Old Republic) was not too long ago, maybe three or four years. It had great story line and long quests involving that.  The entire Ultima (not on-line) series had good puzzles.   And........ </p>

[Xanzibar]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>As others have pointed out, crafters of other classes are not competitors, they are suppliers.  Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships with them is important.  Also, participating in the crafting community on a server strengthens it, imo.  Personal contact is more meaningful, and making that extra effort to complete your quest makes it mean more.  I'm all in favor of strengthening ties and making acquaintances within the community.</blockquote>You know, this might sound silly, but as a new(ish) player, I think it's accurate.A few days ago, I finally commissioned some armor for my main character (in the mid-50s somewhere), and it was <i>enjoyable</i>.  Previously, I'd either crafted stuff I needed with an alt, or just bought it off the broker.  But being able to deal with someone who's put time and effort into being a specialized crafter (and Armorer, in this case), getting an excellent product at a good price, and being able to give him a little ROI for his work, was fun.I don't mean to be accusatory, but I think a lot of veteran players might be a little jaded, and have maybe forgotten the idea of how the whole adventurer-crafter and crafter-crafter relationship is/was supposed to work.  Sure, the broker is a lot easier (I've sold exclusively through it, so far), but personal contacts with suppliers & customers really adds something to the game.  I look forward to delving a little more into the personal aspect of it, both from the adventurer side, as well as the crafter side.That said, there are two things that immediately come to mind that go "against the grain" if EQ2 is indeed a more casual game:1) Writs for the factions in Qeynos/Freeport - yes, I will continue to fuss about them; considering people have gotten their Epics faster than they could max faction with these guys... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />2) Travel time - granted, I come from City of Heroes, where travel is <i>very</i> fast; it's not that EQ2 is bad, it's just that I'm not used to having to leg-it all over the place.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Anyway, I'm still a long way from 80 with any of my crafters, but in the end, I think the networking involved in the Epic will be good for the community.

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>As others have pointed out, crafters of other classes are not competitors, they are suppliers.  Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships with them is important.  Also, participating in the crafting community on a server strengthens it, imo.  Personal contact is more meaningful, and making that extra effort to complete your quest makes it mean more.  I'm all in favor of strengthening ties and making acquaintances within the community.  But that said, from another practical level this is also a quite deliberate time sink.  It takes time to colled 8 items in person.  That time sink would not exist if you bought them from the broker, or mailed them.  If the pieces were brokerable there would be dozens listed, it would take approximately 60 seconds to complete this step of the epic, and the entire quest could be done in under 2 hours from when you are given the starter - much less if you can port.  That's not an epic quest, that's a bit of running around and a shopping errand.</blockquote>People speak up when they have a gripe, so I'm sure this thread is unfairly weighted with complaints, and it'd be easy to say "it's obvious most people want this changed, just look at this thread!".Umm... no.Don't change this Domino, this is perfectly in line with a Tradeskill "Epic" quest. Your thinking is sound, your intentions are grand, and the execution is fairly perfect.

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Nalerian@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The comments about fighting durability with another player and having essentially group encounters for crafting simply does not exist in the current game mechanics.  </p></blockquote>When you go out with a group to get something done, and you have someone that just stands around while others do the work, are you going to manage to get that something done or are you going to fail? Everyone in a group is important. If all the people involved in a commission aren't going to be important and creativity isn't going to be put into making them important, then including such a step is just an artificial limitation and a pointless timesink where something much more worthwhile could have been placed.

[Sayne]

<cite>Xanzibar@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>As others have pointed out, crafters of other classes are not competitors, they are suppliers.  Knowing how to find suppliers and establish relationships with them is important.  Also, participating in the crafting community on a server strengthens it, imo.  Personal contact is more meaningful, and making that extra effort to complete your quest makes it mean more.  I'm all in favor of strengthening ties and making acquaintances within the community.</blockquote>You know, this might sound silly, but as a new(ish) player, I think it's accurate.A few days ago, I finally commissioned some armor for my main character (in the mid-50s somewhere), and it was <i>enjoyable</i>.  Previously, I'd either crafted stuff I needed with an alt, or just bought it off the broker.  But being able to deal with someone who's put time and effort into being a specialized crafter (and Armorer, in this case), getting an excellent product at a good price, and being able to give him a little ROI for his work, was fun.I don't mean to be accusatory, but I think a lot of veteran players might be a little jaded, and have maybe forgotten the idea of how the whole adventurer-crafter and crafter-crafter relationship is/was supposed to work.  Sure, the broker is a lot easier (I've sold exclusively through it, so far), but personal contacts with suppliers & customers really adds something to the game.  I look forward to delving a little more into the personal aspect of it, both from the adventurer side, as well as the crafter side.</blockquote><p>It's a rare case that I sell items that I have crafted from my broker.  I'm usually LFG when I'm on my carpenter, I advertise in channels, and I don't feel overconfident in saying that some of the higher level people on the server know where to find their quality furniture, AA mirrors, Mannequins, and carpenter-made adornments.  I was quite giddy the first time I saw someone asking for me by name in the crafting channel - I wonder if Mheryl ever felt that way <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I love being able to meet up with someone and comission something for them, I love the little interactions you have where you wave and bow and thank and smile.  Sure, I'll mail items if someone asks me to, but I love making stuff like the mirrors because I get to meet up with people and provide them with a great product that they're very excited about.  It's a part of why I love crafting!  And when I'm not doing that, I decorate for various people on my server and bring them another special aspect of my craft that I supremely enjoy.  I wish that more people had this point of view - that interacting with clients (I say "clients" because it sounds all sophistocated) and other crafters can be a great and fun thing.  There's still a big drive on Kithicor to help people get their epics, and I think there will always be friendly crafters willing to help out.</p>

[Sayne]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Talking to NPCs to get 'hints' about what to make will only work for the first person to do it, and then it's straight to a spoiler site or in-game chat channels.  Look at the cloaks; they were a 'hidden' reward, you were supposed to remember that you promised Jayak you'd bring him news if you visited Rivervale, but your quest didn't prompt you to go back, and in all other ways it looked as if you'd finished your epic at step 5.  I imagine the first people through the quest took a while to figure out maybe they should go back to him.  But since then every walk-through tells you where to go and the chat channels have just been full of people saying "where do I get the cloak" and "don't forget to go back to the sarnak" etc.  Dialog hints don't work so well in a MMO, particularly one with so many spoiler sites as we have.  And even if the dialog was slightly random (which would take a LOT more work to do) there would still be a limited number of possible combinations and it wouldn't take too long for the spoiler sites to figure them all out.  Ask yourself how many of you actually sit and listen to the old guy in the courtyard in the Isle of Mara before answering the tower guards' questions ... and how many just do a Google search or check a spoiler site for the answers.  It's unfortunate, because I'd love to write lots of clever dialog for people to puzzle through, but that's just the way this type of game seems to work.</blockquote><p>I honestly feel a little bad because I was so eager to help other crafters with their quests when they came out, since Greatly and I discovered the quest on our server and worked hard to get through the first parts together.  I just didn't want people to be frustrated - I suppose I imagined I was making it more fun for them.  Ah well, can't go back and change it.  At least I tried to get people to read the quests and pay attention to what the NPCs were saying by directing them to it when they had questions about where to go <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> And Domino please, please, please keep including clever dialogue for these quests.  I can't explain the gut busting laughter that came out of me when I was conversing with the strange gnome about laden or unladen bixies.  Little parts like that make these quests all the more worthwhile, and if people skip through it, then that's their loss.  I attentively read through each part of the quest, figuring out each step without any silly spolers, and it was all the more rewarding for it.  I powered through it the second time on my provisioner and it felt like something was missing when I was just skipping over dialogue so I could get to where I needed items made, so I slowed down and took it all in.  I think the epic crafting quest line is just perfect - it takes time, thought, and companionship.  Well done, Domino - I hope we can see more cool stuff like this in the future!</p>

[erin]

I can't believe people are bagging on Domino over this.We finally got a real quest for crafters.  Not too difficult if you are an adventurer/crafter, but try it with a level 16 adventurer!!  It was fun.We got one of the coolest earrings in the game out of it.  All the people looking at their 5pp or 14pp horses are envious <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We got a beautiful cloak out of it.  The only one that I don't care for is the armorer so far, and other people are raving about how pretty it is.I got master <insert class> floating over my head, which I wear proudly on all my crafters as they get this complete.I'm sorry but I just don't see the complaint.  I've been part of several crafting raids.  I've helped a number of people.Tonight, one guy was offering 4pp PER combine, I did all the ones I could for him for free, and he was tickled pink.  I plan to continue to do so, yes even 6 months from now.This was the first real crafting event, as far as I'm concerned, and personally I think its a blast.Thanks Domino, you rock.  Simple as that.  Do it again!  Doesn't have to be this elaborate, throw in a few quests that give us some house items.  Or just "a spoon". Everyone loves "a spoon".More quests please!!

[Shazzie]

I too don't see any problem with this quest.I got my main character's done the day the quest came out. I had to get my final 2 Carpenter levels, do adventure writs to gain enough faction with Bathezid's Watch to get the quest, and harvest 2 Ebon (because I'd made all my Ebon into Chandeliers the DAY BEFORE). I wasn't the first Carpenter on AB to get my earring & cloak, but I was immensely satisfied when I did. Since that day I've been in 3 Crafting raids. I've made dozens of Picnic Baskets for people. Gladly, and happily, and without even considering charging for it. And I always will. Just like my T8 Alchemist (one level to go before she can begin her quest) has always been happy to make CAs of any tier. If someone needs T3 made, I'm just as happy and willing to help them as someone needing T8. Am I a rarity? I dunno. Maybe.I loved this quest. If anyone ever needs a Picnic Basket on AB and is having trouble, look me up or send me a letter. My name's Arilae.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is baffling is the way some people come across. "I'm busy with some adventuring, just let me buy my crafting update (Or let me somehow get it exactly when I deem I have 5 spare minutes between the "real" gameplay of doing instances and am in Teren's Grasp where other crafters have been hanging out so alignment is not an issue)." This is a <b><i><u>crafting</u></i></b> epic! This is a game that requires you to make some choices. You have to choose between running CoA or running Maiden' or running Vaults. You can't do all those things at the same time. Should you be entitled to buy your CoA updates because you were already in a Chelsith group and could not join the one advertising for a healer for CoA? You people need to stop thinking of the crafting epic the way many of you think of crafting in general...something to do as a sidebar during your adventure downtime. </p></blockquote>In full agreement with this quote..<span style="color: #ff9900;">Then why does the crafting epic require you to sit around doing nothing, waiting for that rare spawn: the level 80 woodworker (on your server), with the recipe, with the time to spare, who doesn't want to gouge a fortune in plat out of you?That's not "</span><b><i><u>crafting</u></i></b><b><i><span style="color: #ff9900;">"</span></i></b><span style="color: #ff9900;"> I think you ought to read the post again and try to see it from their point of view. I'm not in that poster's situation, but I can clearly sympathise.</span>What it looks like to me is MrWolfie does not like Domino and is just trying to argue with her at this point and its getting highly frustrating to see, considering Domino has done alot for this community.<span style="color: #ff9900;">I've nothing against Domino. But what she's done for this community has no bearing on the argument at hand.I've frequently commented on how she's far and away the best developer at SOE and makes the rest of them look like crap.But I don't feel the need to suck up, like some sycophants with useless one line posts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> , and I will BE HONEST with her.This is how I see the quest, and some people (even those who dislike what I'm saying) agree with some of the things I'm saying.Not only that, but I didn't start this thread, so someone else felt more strongly than I did and kicked this off.If it upsets you, I apologise, but I will not back down from my opinion.I also like you, and usually, I welcome your posts, but this time they're framed around what you think I meant, rather than what I'm actually saying.I'm a casual player who can see all the sides of this argument, I can also make educated guesses at what will happen in the future in regards this quest (and its difficulty).I can see why people with 9 crafters on one account would feel slighted by the use of the commissioning system.I can see why people who are adventurer/crafter won't like the commissioning system because it limits their ability to a) help others, and b) play the game as they hang around online, doing nothing, while waiting for that elusive last update.Also, I can see why some people might feel that this quest, as a whole, has not tested their ability nor made them feel like a "master crafter".What I can't understand is why some people are a) so defensive of Domino, she's a grown up and can take this crit icism with the intent in which it is made, b) so c lose-minded they can't see anyone-else's point of view but their own, and c) are defending a mechanic which has now been admitted to only exist as a pathetic time sink!</span> </blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span>

[Sayne]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>In full agreement with this quote..<span style="color: #ff9900;">Then why does the crafting epic require you to sit around doing nothing, waiting for that rare spawn: the level 80 woodworker (on your server), with the recipe, with the time to spare, who doesn't want to gouge a fortune in plat out of you?That's not "</span><b><i><u>crafting</u></i></b><b><i><span style="color: #ff9900;">"</span></i></b><span style="color: #ff9900;"> I think you ought to read the post again and try to see it from their point of view. I'm not in that poster's situation, but I can clearly sympathise.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Why do you just have to sit around and wait?  While waitnig for my own updates I helped other people, I did some of my own crafting or worked on writs...I actually "crafted" and enjoyed it instead of sitting in QH begging for an update.  I actually made use of my time, but I suppose if people just want to sit around for that then it's their right.</span></span>What it looks like to me is MrWolfie does not like Domino and is just trying to argue with her at this point and its getting highly frustrating to see, considering Domino has done alot for this community.<span style="color: #ff9900;">I've nothing against Domino. But what she's done for this community has no bearing on the argument at hand.I've frequently commented on how she's far and away the best developer at SOE and makes the rest of them look like crap.But I don't feel the need to suck up, like some sycophants with useless one line posts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> , and I will BE HONEST with her.This is how I see the quest, and some people (even those who dislike what I'm saying) agree with some of the things I'm saying.Not only that, but I didn't start this thread, so someone else felt more strongly than I did and kicked this off.If it upsets you, I apologise, but I will not back down from my opinion.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">And some people will disagree *shrugs* just as you are entitled to your opinion, they are entitled to theirs.  Either side arguing that the other side is wrong is really a moot point, since it's probably not going to sway anyone's opinion <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span>I also like you, and usually, I welcome your posts, but this time they're framed around what you think I meant, rather than what I'm actually saying.I'm a casual player who can see all the sides of this argument, I can also make educated guesses at what will happen in the future in regards this quest (and its difficulty).I can see why people with 9 crafters on one account would feel slighted by the use of the commissioning system.I can see why people who are adventurer/crafter won't like the commissioning system because it limits their ability to a) help others, and b) play the game as they hang around online, doing nothing, while waiting for that elusive last update.Also, I can see why some people might feel that this quest, as a whole, has not tested their ability nor made them feel like a "master crafter".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">I may be confused here, but why would the comissioning system limit the ability for adventurers and crafters to help other people?  The comissioning system is a great tool for helping others - I've comissioned many AA mirrors for adventurers who don't craft and don't want to grind up the 40k faction (or more, depending on if they did writs waaaay back in the day) just to get a mirror.  I love the comissioning system - it's a safe, easy way for people to get items from crafters that everyone can feel comfortable with.  </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">And again, I don't know why you have to sit around doing nothing.  There are plenty of situations in the game where you don't have to be either doing something that can't be interrupted or not doing anything at all - doing writs, making items to sell, doing comissioned work for people who need it (such as making spells or armor etc), harvesting, soloing...I can think of a number of things to do while waiting on an update.  Sitting around would just waste my playing time, and I don't think I'd want to do that - indeed I didn't when I was waiting for my updates.  I made the best of it.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">I felt like this was a great test of my abilities as a crafter.  Making me brave many mobs without the benefit of adventuring levels to hide behind really tested my skills as a non-adventurer.  Those times when I'm slipping into Freeport to meet a client, I think of dodging mobs in the Fens or gigantic rats and it makes me smile.  Slipping into Neriak is even worse, but it's still amusing - a good crafter has a lot of skills they need in their pocked other than just pushing buttons to make items.</span>What I can't understand is why some people are a) so defensive of Domino, she's a grown up and can take this crit icism with the intent in which it is made, b) so c lose-minded they can't see anyone-else's point of view but their own, and c) are defending a mechanic which has now been admitted to only exist as a pathetic time sink!</span> </p><span style="color: #0000ff;">People are just defensive because everyone loves Domino so much.  I know that she's capable of taking care of herself, but honestly it's like someone picking on Betty Crocker or something.  Domino has such a wonderful reputation and she's done so much for us that most people tend to get a little defensive when someone butts heads with her, even if it is civil and warranted.  And honestly, so what if the quest is designed to be a time sink?  I would have been incredibly unhappy if it had taken me 10 minutes to get my epic, and in fact I expected it to take longer than it did.  I'm sure you would have been just as disappointed if all you had to do was make 15 chairs and you got your epic, as we all would.  It may not be the most perfect quest, but it could have been a whole lot worse too.  The quest is very likely not to change, so arguing against it probably won't achieve anything.  Try to relax and enjoy the game, it'll make it so much more worthwhile for you <span style="font-size: small;"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></span></blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote>

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is baffling is the way some people come across. "I'm busy with some adventuring, just let me buy my crafting update (Or let me somehow get it exactly when I deem I have 5 spare minutes between the "real" gameplay of doing instances and am in Teren's Grasp where other crafters have been hanging out so alignment is not an issue)." This is a <b><i><u>crafting</u></i></b> epic! This is a game that requires you to make some choices. You have to choose between running CoA or running Maiden' or running Vaults. You can't do all those things at the same time. Should you be entitled to buy your CoA updates because you were already in a Chelsith group and could not join the one advertising for a healer for CoA? You people need to stop thinking of the crafting epic the way many of you think of crafting in general...something to do as a sidebar during your adventure downtime. </p></blockquote>In full agreement with this quote..<span style="color: #ff9900;">Then why does the crafting epic require you to sit around doing nothing, waiting for that rare spawn: the level 80 woodworker (on your server), with the recipe, with the time to spare, who doesn't want to gouge a fortune in plat out of you?That's not "</span><b><i><u>crafting</u></i></b><b><i><span style="color: #ff9900;">"</span></i></b><span style="color: #ff9900;"> I think you ought to read the post again and try to see it from their point of view. I'm not in that poster's situation, but I can clearly sympathise.<span style="color: #cc00ff;">As someone just mentioned, you dont have to sit around and do nothing. If you wanted to you could.. after all for me personally it was nice to talk with other crafters and actually interact with people *gasp.. this is an MMO for a reason, otherwise I would be playing my playstation*</span></span>What it looks like to me is MrWolfie does not like Domino and is just trying to argue with her at this point and its getting highly frustrating to see, considering Domino has done alot for this community.<span style="color: #ff9900;">I've nothing against Domino. But what she's done for this community has no bearing on the argument at hand.I've frequently commented on how she's far and away the best developer at SOE and makes the rest of them look like crap.But I don't feel the need to suck up, like some sycophants with useless one line posts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> , and I will BE HONEST with her.This is how I see the quest, and some people (even those who dislike what I'm saying) agree with some of the things I'm saying.Not only that, but I didn't start this thread, so someone else felt more strongly than I did and kicked this off.If it upsets you, I apologise, but I will not back down from my opinion.<span style="color: #cc00ff;">I dont expect you to change your opinion, its rightfully yours to keep. But when Domino (many times) explained to you her reasons for doing things you seem to want to keep arguing just to argue.</span>I also like you, and usually, I welcome your posts, but this time they're framed around what you think I meant, rather than what I'm actually saying.I'm a casual player who can see all the sides of this argument, I can also make educated guesses at what will happen in the future in regards this quest (and its difficulty).<span style="color: #cc00ff;">If its any one thing we agree on, even though not 100%, it would be this.. and the *down the road* view.. though I still firmly believe that even though it will be harder to find people to commission these items, I dont think it will be impossible. As you stated, only time will tell.  (btw this is what guildies are for.. to help one another out on stuff like this)</span>I can see why people with 9 crafters on one account would feel slighted by the use of the commissioning system.I can see why people who are adventurer/crafter won't like the commissioning system because it limits their ability to a) help others, and b) play the game as they hang around online, doing nothing, while waiting for that elusive last update.Also, I can see why some people might feel that this quest, as a whole, has not tested their ability nor made them feel like a "master crafter".<span style="color: #cc00ff;">I don't get why you think this. Is it because you made all 9 crafters so you didn't have to interact with other people? You chose the wrong game if your answer is *yes* because this is a Massively MULTIPLAYER Online game. Multiplayer emphasized for a reason.. If you wanted to play by yourself being 100% self sufficient with no contact from other people then the playstation would have worked alot better. Each one of those crafters that is on the same account has the same quest to work on with the same difficulty, its all equal. Just because you cant do it all by yourself doesn't mean that its not good.. on the contrary.. I would think *epic* to mean very difficult and something you CANT do alone. </span>What I can't understand is why some people are a) so defensive of Domino, she's a grown up and can take this crit icism with the intent in which it is made, b) so c lose-minded they can't see anyone-else's point of view but their own, and c) are defending a mechanic which has now been admitted to only exist as a pathetic time sink!</span> <span style="color: #cc00ff;">I did get defensive and you are right, she is a big girl and can take care of herself. But I also got annoyed and tired of reading your posts as they all sound extremely aggressive and rude in some places. Which prompted my reply. Especially considering she explained to you her reasonings yet you still continue to argue with her..</span></blockquote><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></blockquote>

[Illmarr]

Save your breath/bandwidth Sidori. Wolfe is of the unshakable opinion that everything in the game should be able to be completed in an hour by a duo and is never shy of making his displeasure known when they are not. He's more than welcome to that belief, but a productive discourse on anything that deviates from that belief is impossible due to his "Anti-vision" of how his gameplay should be. Just look at his sig for your clues. Duos FTW and gameplay>realism.

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Thud@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know about the servers y'all are on, but the crosscrafting part has totally rocked on mine. Within a couple minutes of asking in 'good_crafting' I was directed to the tsepic channel someone had made up. A bunch of crafters had all decided to get together in TG and help each other. Thenceforth, TG(KP1) became the standard meeting place for helping folks through their epics. Every day new folks come through asking for help, getting directed, finding each other, and the 'old masters' jump in to fill gaps regularly. </p></blockquote><p>All week it was slow on Butcherblock.  Not too many crafters to do the epic were available.  </p><p>But today we had a party at BW.  Everyone who is anyone in crafting was there and a fine time was had by all.  The hall was packed.  Every crafting station was in use, and players were lined up waiting.  </p><p>You may now address me as Master Sage.  One problem, where am I going to get a snappy red cloth suit to go with my lovely cape? </p>

[Syndic]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it were changed so the items were tradeable, this quest would be trivially fast and easy and not worthy of the rewards you get unless some other requirement were added -- such as having to personally harvest all those T5 rares after getting the quest, for example. </blockquote>Actually yeah do that, I would much prefer to have to harvest the rares my self.  As it stands I'm going to have to do that anyway since the prices for the rares are ludicrous.  So really having to jump through both hoops anyway.

[SilkenKidden]

<cite>Syndic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>If it were changed so the items were tradeable, this quest would be trivially fast and easy and not worthy of the rewards you get unless some other requirement were added -- such as having to personally harvest all those T5 rares after getting the quest, for example. </blockquote>Actually yeah do that, I would much prefer to have to harvest the rares my self.  As it stands I'm going to have to do that anyway since the prices for the rares are ludicrous.  So really having to jump through both hoops anyway.</blockquote><p>No way.  I've been harvesting the T5 rares for three days now, non-stop, hours on end.  I've gotten zillions of figwarts, fused loam,  and rhodium clusters,  but only 1 severed cedar, and 1 ebon cluster.</p><p>The results really defy randomness.  I clean up the entire three zones along the left side of lavastorm, harvesting everything there is.  It might be better if there were more ore and wood notes, but I think there is a problem with whether you get fused loam or ebon clusters once you have hit the jackpot.  You get far more fused loam than ebon.  You get far more rhodium than rubies.  You can tell this is true overall by the price of ebon and ruby on the broker now.  Figwarts and rhodium go for about 40 or 50 gold.  Ebon and cedar go for 2 plat.    I still have to get the rares for my tailor, although sage is done now.  I figure four figwart equal 1 cedar and buy the cedar after I've managed to sell all the figwart. </p>

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>Problem is that when the level limit is raised, all previous content - including epics will become obsolete once again as its totally eclipsed by the next tier's stuff. After being thoroughly depressed seeing my Vhalen's gear on my Troub that took me months to collect being immediately made obsolete by treasured stuff pathetically easy to gain I am now *very* cautious about doing very long, very hard quests for items with limited lifespans.</p><p>You only have to look at the sorry state of the old world heritage quest items to realise how very obsolete they are now. Ghoulbane still requires a raid and the item is woefully bad now.</p><p>I would be very suprised if anyone bothers with epics in 6 months, especially the crafter epic. It looks nice but thats about it.</p>

[Motown]

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would be very suprised if anyone bothers with epics in 6 months, especially the crafter epic. <b>It looks nice but thats about it. </b></blockquote>Well, for some of us looks >>> all.As you've pointed out, stats are relative and become obsolete.  Looking sharp, however, is timeless. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Gargamel]

<p>You people are annoying.</p><p>First you cry about having nothing to do then given something complain you can't do it in a week.</p><p>Get a life.</p>

[erin]

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Problem is that when the level limit is raised, all previous content - including epics will become obsolete once again as its totally eclipsed by the next tier's stuff. After being thoroughly depressed seeing my Vhalen's gear on my Troub that took me months to collect being immediately made obsolete by treasured stuff pathetically easy to gain I am now *very* cautious about doing very long, very hard quests for items with limited lifespans.</p><p>You only have to look at the sorry state of the old world heritage quest items to realise how very obsolete they are now. Ghoulbane still requires a raid and the item is woefully bad now.</p><p>I would be very suprised if anyone bothers with epics in 6 months, especially the crafter epic. It looks nice but thats about it.</p></blockquote>I seriously doubt that a 45% run speed earring will be obsolete in 6 months.  The cloak?  Well I use it for the look, not for the stats.  That's true already.  The title? I wear it proudly.

[Sayne]

<cite>Silken@Butcherblock wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>The results really defy randomness.  I clean up the entire three zones along the left side of lavastorm, harvesting everything there is.  It might be better if there were more ore and wood notes, but I think there is a problem with whether you get fused loam or ebon clusters once you have hit the jackpot.  You get far more fused loam than ebon.  You get far more rhodium than rubies.  You can tell this is true overall by the price of ebon and ruby on the broker now.  Figwarts and rhodium go for about 40 or 50 gold.  Ebon and cedar go for 2 plat.    I still have to get the rares for my tailor, although sage is done now.  I figure four figwart equal 1 cedar and buy the cedar after I've managed to sell all the figwart. </p></blockquote>Consider that the epic crafting quest takes <i>2 each</i> of ebon, ruby, and cedar, and only <i>1 each</i> of rhodium, figwart, and fused loam.  The prices on the previous 3 are bound to be higher simply for the fact that there are many crafters working on this right now, so saying that they are more "rare" isn't exactly true.  The system truly is random, and if you don't believe it, just remember that you <i>could</i> flip a coin 100 times and it be heads every single time.  It's not likely, but it can happen statistically <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sayne]

<cite>Gargamel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You people are annoying.</p><p>First you cry about having nothing to do then given something complain you can't do it in a week.</p><p>Get a life.</p></blockquote>Ah yes, I forgot you were so much better than all of us because you spend your time searching for topics you disagree with and posting non-constructive posts about how much of losers <i>we</i> are and completely ignoring the intent of the entire post.  Truly it must be wonderful to be you.

[Domino]

This thread seems to be deteriorating into personal arguments and repetitiveness.  I think the main topic can be summed up as Some people: "I think in 6 months there'll be a bottleneck"Other people: "I don't think there'll be a bottleneck"Domino: "I also don't think it'll be a problem but if in 6 months or a year I'm proven wrong we can look at it again"That said, there's no point in continuing to poke each other with pointy objects since it's an argument nobody can win right now, so let's move on to other topics for a while!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />