Undercutting on the broker

[Thunderthyze]

<p>I like many others become hugely vexxed when we log on to find that someone has undercut my Drolvarg Battleaxe on the broker by 1cp to 8p 99g 99s 99c. However, recently I heard an alternative viewpoint voiced, albeit on the EVE forums.</p><p>EVE, as you may or may not know, employs a professional economist to monitor its broker market. By and large, the "full time" market operators on that game don't really worry if someone undercuts by a small amount, indeed many actually prefer that to those that cause a fire sale by undercutting dramatically. The theory is that small undercutting has less long term effect on the economy.</p><p>Take an example of a high volume item with a generally low unit cost....a raw harvestable. Normal price on the broker 2cp. At certain times of the week (usually Sunday evenings) the prices can inflate dramatically due demand being greater than supply and climb to maybe 70~80sp. Pretty soon however, usually by Tuesday, prices will be back to "normal".</p><p>OK, change the example to a mid level master spell. Normal cost on the broker, say, 70gp. If you get 2 or three people actively marketing the price can quite easily drop to 25gp which, in some cases is lower than the price of the rare needed to produce the Adept 3. This will consequently have an effect on the price of Adepts 1 versions until it really isn't worth brokering the items. The issue will not return back to "normal" until the masters are sold or else the vendors stop chasing eachother's prices downwards.</p><p>So what you may say? Well this effect, which WILL happen with everything at some point, results in items very often being hideously OVERpriced initially (eg t8 Master spells) until sufficient supply quenches initial demand. Maybe if you were not able to change the price of brokered items more than, say, once a week the economy would become more stable. Is this neccessary? Would it be welcome? What are your views on the habitual undercutters?</p>

[phoenixshard]

I may be getting this wrong, but you seem to be saying that undercutting both ways is bad. I personally don't buy from someone that undercuts someone by 1 cp and just buy the other item, the only exception being if I can get the item in the other person's home and save at least a few gold that way. If the price of those masters is bothering you so much and you have the same item on sale and you want that 70 g, buy up the other 2 masters and take a risk on being able to sell all 3 at 70 g.

[Thunderthyze]

I'm not looking for advice, rather trying to get a discussion going over what other people feel about the broker market. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[XAvengerX]

Collectables are FREE, you get them for nothing, people can charge what they like.If someone is undercutting you its quite simple, you adjust your price so you are the cheapest if you are looking for a quick sale. Either that or wait it out until the undercutters mechandise is gone and you are the cheapest again.Undercutting will always happen, its part of life in a competitve market, and you have to adjust your prices too if you want to be competitive.Its that simple im afraid. You have to learn to adapt.Also concerning overpriced items you have the choice to pay the price or not. The only other solution is to go and find that item yourself in the dungeon if you dont like what they charging.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Daig@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Collectables are FREE, you get them for nothing, people can charge what they like.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Well that's not quite true as if you want to SELL them then you need to be competitive.</span>If someone is undercutting you its quite simple, you adjust your price so you are the cheapest if you are looking for a quick sale. Either that or wait it out until the undercutters mechandise is gone and you are the cheapest again.Undercutting will always happen, its part of life in a competitve market, and you have to adjust your prices too if you want to be competitive.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">My original point was however to question what is "better" for the market as a whole......1cp undercuts or more significant discounts?</span>Its that simple im afraid. You have to learn to adapt.Also concerning overpriced items you have the choice to pay the price or not. The only other solution is to go and find that item yourself in the dungeon if you dont like what they charging.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Of course you always have that option....and it really IS that easy isn't it <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></p></blockquote><p>I suppose the reason I posted this thread was to explore the trickle down effect that undercutting has at the lower end of the market.</p><p>Consider a new player......I mean a REALLY new player....new to EQ2. If systemic undercutting has made it unrealistic for players to broker adept 1 skills because the masters aren't that much more expensive then it is these new players, who don't have the option of being twinked and have to subsidise their gear and abilities themselves, who are affected the most.</p><p>How often do you hear new players complaining in these forums about the cost/availability of the stuff they need? Is this going to drive them away?</p><p>Recently I decided to make a totally untwinked character, receiving no help from my stable of alts whatsoever....no free crafting etc etc. Over time my experience has shown me the best places to go to earn money. I created an Inquisitor and started farming the names in The Graveyard. 10gp a pop for t1 masters.....very nice thank you. Eventually however the filters SOE puts in place to combat this (conspiracy theory #1) meant I was no longer getting the exquisite drops. As Treasure chests really don't create much wealth I moved on to harvesting in t1. HUGE profits to be made from the lazy players who buy rather than gather. Make the character an armourer and get fully kitted out in mastercrafted gear. By the time I had got to level 12 I had getting on for 10pp. Pretty nice but this is progression by an experienced player. New players wouldn't know where to go or what to do. More likely they will create a "popular" class whose spells/combat arts cost the earth.</p><p>My point is that a more stable economy would surely benefit the newer players we are trying to attract?</p>

[XAvengerX]

I see nothing wrong with the in game economy right now, I am making plenty of cash from adornments, and occasionally collectibles.The point about collectibles I made is they are FREE, anyone can get them and no one need pay money for them, they are freely available to whoever visits the zone they are in, so I dont really understand your rebuttal on that point.If you were in real life business you would have to deail with competition too, its no different in game, its a lot harder to make money from a primary tradeskill these days on the broker than any other activity, and that is quite sad for the full time tradeskillers.

[MrWolfie]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> If systemic undercutting has made it unrealistic for players to broker adept 1 skills because the masters aren't that much more expensive then it is these new players, who don't have the option of being twinked and have to subsidise their gear and abilities themselves, who are affected the most.<span style="color: #ff6600;">Except that, Adept 1s have more uses than just spell upgrades. They sell for a premium to transmuters. In fact, since the introduction of Transmuting, the going price for Adept 1s has risen considerably. There used to be a time that you couldn't sell an Adept 1 for anything substantial over the vendor price - in some cases, and I used to do this, you could buy Adepts off the broker and sell it to the right vendor for a PROFIT! Can't do that now.</span></p><p>My point is that a more stable economy would surely benefit the newer players we are trying to attract?<span style="color: #ff6600;">Rampant undercutting only assists the new player with little coinage. It leads to App IVs being sold for little more than cost, cheap rares, and even mastercrafted items on the broker at LESS than the cost of the rares. However, as a long-time player, and crafter, I feel that my skills are devalued - especially as crafting gets easier and my produce is outclassed by drops and quest rewards - does that mean I should quit???</span></p></blockquote>

[Mayl]

<p>You get upset when you get undercut..    ie, you are greedy and wanted the plat.</p><p>You don't care anything about the economy of the game..  Don't even play that card.  You care about your pocketbook.</p><p>I have zero issues with folks (and I do it) undercutting someone on the broker.    People do it to me all the time.   Heck you can say it helps the consumer as they get a lower price.  /shrug</p><p>It is a freaking game with freaking pixels that YOU decide who much time, effort and in game coin you want to spend.   Nobody else..</p><p>Stop making it more then it really is..   Go solve cancer or something.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

Not sure what's up with the "collectables" are free argument, or what the point is. Everthing in the game can be obtained for free except little trinkets and odds & ends off NPC merchants.I don't mind undercutting. Sometimes it gets a little ridiculous, but it's no big deal. For example I had a conj master on broker a while back for 30p. Me and this other seller get in an undercutting game until we both go down from 30p to like 9p. I simply bumped my price back up to 30p and waited for him to sell his for 9p. Undercutting is only really an issue if you're in a hurry to sell something. Most of my high dollar stuff can sit there for a few weeks for all I care. It will sell when it sells and if it doesn't sell for the value I want, I either lower the price or mute it or give to a friend or whatever.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Mayl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is a freaking game with freaking pixels that YOU decide who much time, effort and in game coin you want to spend.   Nobody else..</p><p>Stop making it more then it really is..   Go solve cancer or something.</p></blockquote><p>ROFLMFAO!!</p><p>And there speaks the voice of Mr "I use to play WoW"</p>

[Dreadpatch]

Sometimes things are just ridiculously overpriced, and I will undercut significantly. I'm not out to gauge my fellow gamers, I'm not saying I'm going to undercut so much it's going to kill the other people selling on the broker, but there is a big difference between what people will pay sometimes (realistically) vs. what some idiot puts it on the broker for because it's the "only one". That's my 2 copper...

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sometimes things are just ridiculously overpriced, and I will undercut significantly. I'm not out to gauge my fellow gamers, I'm not saying I'm going to undercut so much it's going to kill the other people selling on the broker, but there is a big difference between what people will pay sometimes (realistically) vs. what some idiot puts it on the broker for because it's the "only one". <span style="color: #cc0000;">That's my 2 copper</span>...</blockquote><p>Hah! I undercut you........1cp!! </p><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Miladi]

Most of what I sell on the broker is way underpriced compared to other sellers. Why? Because mine sells and their's sit there for weeks. I'll vendor it if the competition sells below vendor cost or within a few silver/gold of vendor price, doesn't matter to me. If your price is lower than what a vendor pays, even WITH the broker fees, then I'm buying your's and either selling it myself for more, or I'll vendor it and make the profit you're too stupid to make. If someone goes and undercuts me again, I'll adjust my price lower if I'm looking for cash...any money is better than having it sit there doing me no good.

[Karlen]

If someone undercuts your price, they are saying in effect that your price is too high.  If you do not believe this to be the case, buy their (underpriced) product and resell it yourself at the more appropriate price.

[Gladiia]

<cite>Karlen@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If someone undercuts your price, they are saying in effect that your price is too high.  If you do not believe this to be the case, buy their (underpriced) product and resell it yourself at the more appropriate price.</blockquote><p>That isn't what I'm saying when I undercut someone.  I'm saying I want mine to sell first when I undercut.</p><p>OP, the 1cp undercutting probably leaves a more stable economy then the mass undercuts.  But the 1cp undercuts are also the ones that I think aggravate people the most.  I try and find a happy medium, but not everyone is going to do that.  The economy is what it is, and it is probably way to late to try and adjust broker mechanics for this game.</p>

[Karlen]

<span class="postbody">>>>That isn't what I'm saying when I undercut someone.  I'm saying I want mine to sell first when I undercut.<<<You are also saying that the price you are willing to sell at is lower than the others selling that product.  If not, you wouldn't bother putting the item up on the broker at all.Everyone want to sell their item first.  Everyone wants to make as much profit as possible.   Each person has to make their own judgement on which of those two priorities is more important to them.</span>

[Bledso]

<p>hmmm</p><p>Undercutting means someone is less greedy then you.</p><p>Colelctables sell for 7c to an npc - anything above that is profit.</p><p>I am out to dump my inventory loot items as quickly as possible - so I post it to be more than what the auto amount pops up and what the highest amount it is selling for I post mine for less.</p><p>Welcome to a free market and welcome to a player run economy - or are you (OP) saying we should all be together and price fix items.</p><p>rare collectables that are used to finish a line and also needed for the glasses - those will always be my money makers.</p><p>I price to sell - if you don't like it - sorry, too bad so sad.</p>

[Ama]

<p>Have to say undercutting someone's sales by 1cp is a pain and I actually boycott that.  When i'm selling stuff on the broker I usually go by standard prices I set.  If a person is selling an item for say 30g I will first look at that item seeing if it is really worth that amount.  To me if the item isn't worth 30g I will set mine lower than that person at 20-25g hoping to turn a profit.  </p><p>I'm in the market to make some coin, but not to be super greedy undercutting people by cp and silver.  If it becomes necessary I will play the gold game lowering my item by 1g a set number of days.  Once I reach a fair price I will leave it on the broker till it sells and if it doesn't i'll sell to a merchant or give to an alt of mine. </p>

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

And here we go again with the same issue about the broker.I am surprised it's so soon after the last expack./shrugIf you don't like MR/MRS Iundercutyouby1cp, then don't buy from them. It's that simple, lastnight I watched 5hrs in level chat about the broker and all the crap about undercutting/overpricing that has been beaten to death. You can either buy up the excess items that you feel are a threat to your product and mark them all up or you can stop being greedy. I constantly mark and remark items down on my broker if I start out to high. I like to make my coin but not at the cost of screwing over someone to do it.Sheesh people, like it or not we have a player driven market and it will always have it's up and downs. And tbh if SoE were to impliment some sort of limiting option on how many times and a high low on item I can insure I would end up being very vocal. Oh and before the morals guys spout off, bite me, Coin in this game is so stupidily easy to make it's not funny. I have on my assassin/jeweler 7plat from runes/jewelry and he is level 25 assassin and 30 jeweler. I harvest all my mats, and pass down the low level mats from high level ones to him as well. I only deal in the adept3/MC market as well.Keep in mind I have spent 4plat in advanced books as well, 2 of them were 3p50 gold. Gotta love rare books./rant off *Edit and I use a medium under cut 5silver to what ever. I drop things in incriments of 5.*

[Ishina]

I get a feeling some people don't even read a thread before they post. I think they just jump at the chance to throw in their pre-conceived opinion about all threads even remotely related to the subject.

[UlteriorModem]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not looking for advice, rather trying to get a discussion going over what other people feel about the broker market. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Again ! ? /rolleyes</p><p>Undercutting by 1 copper is just silly but it happens. End of discussion.</p>

[Jrral]

Myself, I look at what percentage the undercutting is. When an item's priced at 1g, 1s is a 1% difference. If I see someone undercutting an item priced in gold or plat by 1c or 1s, I look at that as them saying "I don't want to sell at a lower price, I just want my name listed first so you'll be more likely to select mine.". When I'm shelling out gold or plat for an item, 1s is negligible. So I'll put the undercutter <i>after</i> the nominally higher-priced people he's undercutting, and buy their items before his. If you're going to undercut, undercut by enough to make it worth my while to buy from you.What's even more amusing are the undercutters who price 1c below the going price, but the people they're trying to undercut have a house box and the undercutter doesn't. I'm always careful to check further down the list to see if someone's box price is lower than the lowest broker price.

[Polyneikes]

Undercutting by 1cp (on high-priced items) is annoying, it makes silly prices with absolutely no benefit for anyone. If you want to sell your item fast you undercut, but hell do you need those extra 99s99c that you can't discount your price by? On items that I don't need to sell fast, I try to decide what is a reasonable price and stick with it. I don't mind if someone undercuts me, someone will snatch his item, then mine is cheapest again. If I cannot sell the item for a reasonable price, I would rather transmute it.

[KBern]

<p>I dont even like the word undercutting...it is a tag with a semi derogatory meaning about the person pricing their goods.</p><p>I prefer to think of it as simply someone trying to get a small profit over the NPC vendors while ridding themselves of some unwanted loots in a fast way.</p><p>My prices are usually the lowest for that particular item because I would rather get rid of the item and make some money than have that Troubadour Adept sit on my broker for a year.</p><p>And it is all relative...the higher people charge for adepts, gear, or rares, the higher the new player to the game can charge for the items they have looted/harvested/crafted.</p><p>Do they have to put in the time to make the money?  Of course they do, same as everyone else has in the game.  They are just making much more at an earlier level than any of us who started at game launch, so in reality, they have it even easier then many of us did early on.</p>

[Alis_Landale]

I undercut for 10 silver at least, in some cases I want to sell so badly a hard-tosell item that I can undercut it to a price slightly better than selling to a NPC. Fuuny thing is im trying to sell a master for the initial price of 96g. Now I've put it at 35g and still nobody wants and I'm the first of the list lol.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Have to say undercutting someone's sales by 1cp is a pain and I actually boycott that.  </p></blockquote><p>I hear this a lot, and yet those lower priced items will always sell.  You're not hurting anything or anyone with a personal boycott.  Want to know why?  Because nearly all goods listed on the broker are fungible.  </p><p>My "Golden Cockatrice Feather" is exactly the same as the "Golden Cockatrice Feather" you're trying to sell.  If I decide to sell mine for just one copper/silver/gold lower than yours, it doesn't matter if someone "boycotts" me to buy from you.  Unless you can organize a significant number of buyers to act in the same way, the majority of players (hint: the vast majority of players don't participate in these forums) are likely going to buy the first listed item because it doesn't matter who found the item, or who's listing it - the items are completely interchangeable.  </p><p>That's right - my copper cluster is the same as your copper cluster.  My pristine forged iron leggings are the same as your pristine forged iron leggings.  My Sarnak Hide Buckler is the same as your Sarnak Hide Buckler.  The only difference on the broker is price and who's listed as the seller.  </p><p>If you feel it's a good principled approach for you to pay more coin for the same item, that's for you to decide - but you're not going to alter behavior over it.  Because so long as players exist who continue to buy cheaper, it doesn't matter whether or not you and others keep paying more.</p><p>...</p><p>As a seller, I love undercutters.  I love to send them tells and get into price wars with them.  I love to watch them push their prices lower and lower.  When they finally push low enough, I swoop in, buy the item, and put it back up for sale at a higher price.  People try to bring personal ethics into an open market, and then get upset when other players don't play by the same arbitrary imaginary moralistic rules.  It's an open market.  Don't list an item for less coin than you're willing to accept, and don't become upset if someone actually buys the item you were listing (even if they are listing higher than you were).  </p><p>It's a market.  The point is profit.  I'm not there to make friends.  I make friends grouping in dungeons, interacting in channels, and through the memberships in my guild.  On the broker, I'm there to make a profit.  Frankly, you should be, too.  </p><p>The healthiest economies are competitive.  From a consumer perspective especially, you need players who compete against each other.  Any possible effort to break the cycle of competition (i.e. - personal boycotts against lower prices, for example) are counterproductive towards the idea of a "healthy" economic model.  Fall back to Smith and remember enlightened self-interest and you'll do just fine.  We all will.</p>

[Jovie]

<p>Specifically on shineys, im kind of a freak and will pay more for them from someone who isn't a known shiney farmer or have several of them for sale at once.</p><p>I generally don't care much about undercutters. </p><p>Beyond that i am still utterly baffled when people sell exactly at or below what they would get from a vendor.(i.e. a common shiney that sells to a vendor for 7cp and they have it on for 2......</p><p>Another example are some of the more common tradeskill books. It will vendor for 5gp, yet they put it on for the same amount. (yes i know that some times there is a varience in what the vendor will give)</p>

[Karlen]

<span class="postbody">>>>Beyond that i am still utterly baffled when people sell exactly at or below what they would get from a vendor.<<<I'll do that sometimes if I can't be bothered to head back to an npc to sell.   I usually sell to an npc before heading to my house to unload the rest of my loot onto the broker.  At that point, if one item is selling on the broker for npc price, I might throw the item up at npc price just to get it out of my pack.</span>

[prusso1970]

"<span class="postbody">Maybe if you were not able to change the price of brokered items more than, say, once a week the economy would become more stable. Is this neccessary? Would it be welcome? What are your views on the habitual undercutters?"Horrible idea  - totally unnecessary.  By what measure do you conclude that the economy is unstable and needs fixing? Once a week price changing would do nothing but slow down transaction rates and lead to stagnation. Habitual undercutting moves product and puts money in my pocket to buy other things - don't mess with it.</span>

[Grong]

Here is how I have worked the broker so far.<div></div><div>Yesterday looted a Wizzy master in RE and returned home to find only one on the broker for 4P 50G.  Since this is a level 30's spell I felt that was way overpriced to actually sell and priced mine at 1P 50G.  Even then I feel it is overpriced, but since I am coming in much lower than the other person I will let it sit there for awhile until someone comes in lower.  </div><div></div><div>Being my first character and knowing I didn't have that much money to spend on one spell in my 30's I am hoping to get bought out by someone twinking their alt.  Having only one master on the broker at over 4P I think it benefits the community by a few more showing up to lower the prices so that they become attainable by first time players.  If first time players feel things are attainable and not completely out of reach I feel it will help to keep people enjoying and subscribing to the game.</div><div></div><div>I also looted a dirge master in the 20's and found the price on the broker down to 14G.  I felt this was too low and priced mine at 25G and will leave it there for quite awhile and just monitor the price fluctuations.  </div><div></div><div>My pricing isn't driven by other people as much as it is driven by what I think will sell and what a average player can afford and strive to attain.  I still want to make money-but I also throw into the mix a care for first time players, such as myself, and keeping things dangling in front of them to encourage their participation in this fun game.</div>

[Kendricke]

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I have worked the broker so far. <div></div><div>Yesterday looted a Wizzy master in RE and returned home to find only one on the broker for 4P 50G.  Since this is a level 30's spell I felt that was way overpriced to actually sell and priced mine at 1P 50G.  Even then I feel it is overpriced, but since I am coming in much lower than the other person I will let it sit there for awhile until someone comes in lower.  </div><div></div><div>Being my first character and knowing I didn't have that much money to spend on one spell in my 30's I am hoping to get bought out by someone twinking their alt.  Having only one master on the broker at over 4P I think it benefits the community by a few more showing up to lower the prices so that they become attainable by first time players.  If first time players feel things are attainable and not completely out of reach I feel it will help to keep people enjoying and subscribing to the game.</div><div></div><div>I also looted a dirge master in the 20's and found the price on the broker down to 14G.  I felt this was too low and priced mine at 25G and will leave it there for quite awhile and just monitor the price fluctuations.  </div><div></div><div>My pricing isn't driven by other people as much as it is driven by what I think will sell and what a average player can afford and strive to attain.  I still want to make money-but I also throw into the mix a care for first time players, such as myself, and keeping things dangling in front of them to encourage their participation in this fun game.</div></blockquote><p>From "<a rel="nofollow" href="http://clockworkgamer.com/2007/05/22/the-root-of-all-annoyances-pt-i/" target="_blank">The Root of All Annoyances, Part I</a>" article I wrote at Clockwork Gamer:</p><p><b>Complaint:</b>  <i>It's too hard to make coin at low levels.  Low level itemson the broker are overpriced.  How can a new player possibly be expected to gear up? </i></p><p><b>Response:</b>  If the items sell for that amount to low level players, then low level players can also sell the items for the same amounts. </p><p>No, seriously.  I still start up new characters on different servers from time to time just to see how hard it is to make coin.  In nearly every case, I've managed to earn my first 50 gold by the time I hit level 10.  I can usually manage a platinum by the time I hit level 12 or so.  Level is NOT the limiter, folks.</p><p>...</p><p>If you want to help first time players, find a first time player and sell them the master directly.  Putting a master up on the broker for a quarter of the current lowest price won't necessarily help first time players.  The broker doesn't have a clue what type of buyer you want.  You're not finding a good home for that master.  You're putting a product up on the open market for an openly listed price.  If I come along and see that master selling for a quarter of the current price the market will bear, you can bet I'll buy it and put that same master back up for sale again at a much higher price. ...and if I don't, someone else likely will.  </p><p>You can't choose your buyers if you choose to use the broker.  You're not helping out the common man by selling at lower than the price you think you should.  You're only hurting yourself.  </p><p>Oh, and by the way - it's far easier to make platinum now than it was when you first went through those lower levels.  Just because it was hard to scrounge up a few gold pieces back in 2004 doesn't mean it's hard to do so now.  Better starting zones, better starting quests, and a more robust marketplace mean that first time players have it easier now than we ever did.  Just because a candy bar sold for 5 cents back in your day doesn't mean you should price those snickers for a nickel today - the same principle applies.</p><p>I've had to recondition my own members to realize that the higher prices on the broker today are simply an indication of changing times.  Platinum flows like water in the higher levels, and that's why we're seeing masters selling for 120 platinum (my members walk away from raids with 2-5 platinum in their pocket AFTER repair costs now).  Quest rewards and random treasured drops sell for 15-20 gold to NPC vendors, and a nice legendary drop often moves for 15-80 platinum now (at least on Guk, it does).  That means there's more money in the economy now, which means prices tend to raise...even on those lower priced goods.  </p><p>Dropping or maintaining an artificially lower price than the market can bear isn't helping the new guy.  You're not looking out for Joe Average at that point.  You're only providing a vehicle by which broker hawks like myself can find a tasty bargain here or there.  You're dangling bait in a big lake and that means you don't get to pick the fish that takes it.  </p>

[Gladiia]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is how I have worked the broker so far. <div></div><div>Yesterday looted a Wizzy master in RE and returned home to find only one on the broker for 4P 50G.  Since this is a level 30's spell I felt that was way overpriced to actually sell and priced mine at 1P 50G.  Even then I feel it is overpriced, but since I am coming in much lower than the other person I will let it sit there for awhile until someone comes in lower.  </div><div></div><div>Being my first character and knowing I didn't have that much money to spend on one spell in my 30's I am hoping to get bought out by someone twinking their alt.  Having only one master on the broker at over 4P I think it benefits the community by a few more showing up to lower the prices so that they become attainable by first time players.  If first time players feel things are attainable and not completely out of reach I feel it will help to keep people enjoying and subscribing to the game.</div><div></div><div>I also looted a dirge master in the 20's and found the price on the broker down to 14G.  I felt this was too low and priced mine at 25G and will leave it there for quite awhile and just monitor the price fluctuations.  </div><div></div><div>My pricing isn't driven by other people as much as it is driven by what I think will sell and what a average player can afford and strive to attain.  I still want to make money-but I also throw into the mix a care for first time players, such as myself, and keeping things dangling in front of them to encourage their participation in this fun game.</div></blockquote><p>From "<a rel="nofollow" href="http://clockworkgamer.com/2007/05/22/the-root-of-all-annoyances-pt-i/" target="_blank">The Root of All Annoyances, Part I</a>" article I wrote at Clockwork Gamer:</p><p><b>Complaint:</b>  <i>It's too hard to make coin at low levels.  Low level itemson the broker are overpriced.  How can a new player possibly be expected to gear up? </i></p><p><b>Response:</b>  If the items sell for that amount to low level players, then low level players can also sell the items for the same amounts. </p><p>No, seriously.  I still start up new characters on different servers from time to time just to see how hard it is to make coin.  In nearly every case, I've managed to earn my first 50 gold by the time I hit level 10.  I can usually manage a platinum by the time I hit level 12 or so.  Level is NOT the limiter, folks.</p><p>...</p><p>If you want to help first time players, find a first time player and sell them the master directly.  Putting a master up on the broker for a quarter of the current lowest price won't necessarily help first time players.  The broker doesn't have a clue what type of buyer you want.  You're not finding a good home for that master.  You're putting a product up on the open market for an openly listed price.  If I come along and see that master selling for a quarter of the current price the market will bear, you can bet I'll buy it and put that same master back up for sale again at a much higher price. ...and if I don't, someone else likely will.  </p><p>You can't choose your buyers if you choose to use the broker.  You're not helping out the common man by selling at lower than the price you think you should.  You're only hurting yourself.  </p><p>Oh, and by the way - it's far easier to make platinum now than it was when you first went through those lower levels.  Just because it was hard to scrounge up a few gold pieces back in 2004 doesn't mean it's hard to do so now.  Better starting zones, better starting quests, and a more robust marketplace mean that first time players have it easier now than we ever did.  Just because a candy bar sold for 5 cents back in your day doesn't mean you should price those snickers for a nickel today - the same principle applies.</p><p>I've had to recondition my own members to realize that the higher prices on the broker today are simply an indication of changing times.  Platinum flows like water in the higher levels, and that's why we're seeing masters selling for 120 platinum (my members walk away from raids with 2-5 platinum in their pocket AFTER repair costs now).  Quest rewards and random treasured drops sell for 15-20 gold to NPC vendors, and a nice legendary drop often moves for 15-80 platinum now (at least on Guk, it does).  That means there's more money in the economy now, which means prices tend to raise...even on those lower priced goods.  </p><p>Dropping or maintaining an artificially lower price than the market can bear isn't helping the new guy.  You're not looking out for Joe Average at that point.  You're only providing a vehicle by which broker hawks like myself can find a tasty bargain here or there.  You're dangling bait in a big lake and that means you don't get to pick the fish that takes it.  </p></blockquote><p>I couldn't agree more.  If you sell around the same price as others when you are new, then you will be able to afford most of the things that long term players can afford.  On the flip side, if you sell low, because you want to give new players a break, you will likely not be able to afford some of the basic essentials your character needs.  (besides, when you sell really low to give new players a break, I can bet that most of those items go to people that play the broker game instead...the broker game is fun at times though).</p>

[azekah]

I don't understand why undercutting by 1cp annoys people???Can someone please explain the reasoning behind that?Ever seen The Price is Right?When I see something 1cp cheaper I don't freak out! Zomgz he only went under 1cp, omg boycott him....ahhH!I usually buy it, 1 cp is 1cp

[Karlen]

<span class="postbody"><div>>>>Yesterday looted a Wizzy master in RE and returned home to find only one on the broker for 4P 50G.  Since this is a level 30's spell I felt that was way overpriced to actually sell and priced mine at 1P 50G.  Even then I feel it is overpriced, but since I am coming in much lower than the other person I will let it sit there for awhile until someone comes in lower.  <<<I'll do this as well. If someone really wants to buy up that level 30ish spell at 1p50 and put it back up at 4p50, they are welcome to it.  I got adequate compensation so I'm happy.It is worth pointing out that in this case, 4p50 isn't the going price at which the item is selling, it is the going price at which the item is NOT selling.</div><div></div></span>

[Karlen]

<span class="postbody">>>I don't understand why undercutting by 1cp annoys people???<<<I have to admit I don't understand this either.As a matter of interest, to the people that don't like undercutting by 1cp:  What are we supposed to do?  Undercut by full golds?  Price higher than the existing items (which are obviously not selling since they are still listed)?  Price at the same?</span>

[Gladiia]

<cite>Karlen@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">>>I don't understand why undercutting by 1cp annoys people???<<<I have to admit I don't understand this either.As a matter of interest, to the people that don't like undercutting by 1cp:  What are we supposed to do?  Undercut by full golds?  Price higher than the existing items (which are obviously not selling since they are still listed)?  Price at the same?</span></blockquote><p>I think the annoyance comes from the player who puts an item on the broker for one plat, and goes about there business.  Then they come back later to find out they have been removed from the top of the list by someone who put it up for 99 gold 99 silver and 99 copper - which is essentially the same price some would say when you are dealing with something of that value.  The person may feel like someone cut in line so to speak.  I don't really think people get upset when something that was on the broker for 50 copper gets undercut by 1 copper.  </p><p>What are you supposed to do?  Well, whatever you want to I would say.  I am of the group that thinks undercutting by on copper on something that is 1 plat or more is not very nice, but my opinion doesn't mean you aren't allowed to.  And certainly not everyone agrees with me on that.</p>

[Grong]

I agree that 4P 50G was NOT the going price for that master.  It was the only one available and so the owner priced in abnormally high in order to see if someone would bite.  What level 30's toon would pay 4P 50G for one spell if they were a first time player?  Not many.<div></div><div>I just started playing in December and now at level 52 have almost 20P.  I am not hurting for money and have made that money doing exactly what I described.</div><div></div><div>If you "broker hawks" want to buy up my level 30's master at 1P 50G and reprice them higher then go for it- I just made ALL of that in profit and didn't lose anything.</div><div></div><div>I don't try to play economist and just enjoy the game.  I also make it part of my play style to help others and not always be in search of maximizing everything I do.</div><div></div><div>If you do that is great and I hope it helps you enjoy the game.  But there are some of us who do get joy out of doing it a bit different--and that isn't a bad thing.</div><div></div><div></div>

[azekah]

<cite>Gladiia@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I think the annoyance comes from the player who puts an item on the broker for one plat, and goes about there business.  Then they come back later to find out they have been removed from the top of the list by someone who put it up for 99 gold 99 silver and 99 copper - which is essentially the same price some would say when you are dealing with something of that value.  The person may feel like someone cut in line so to speak.</blockquote>Lol, I did not know things were supposed to be sold in order or placement on the broker...The broker system is setup the way it is for a reason, to create competition.Now how much competetion does 1cp bring on an item that sells for 10pp?Not much, but it doesn't necessarily have to. If you see something on the broker for 10pp, and something for 9pp 99g your mind will automatically lean towards the second.It's something stores have been doing forever. It's good for business.Don't down people for using good business sense...

[Valdaglerion]

<cite>Daig@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collectables are FREE, you get them for nothing, people can charge what they like.</blockquote>So what you are saying is that your time has absolutely no value.

[Chis]

Hmmm...Is there such a thing as an "economic care-bear" ?

[Gladiia]

<cite>Jeffrey46 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm...Is there such a thing as an "economic care-bear" ?</blockquote><p>No, care bears are really expensive these days.</p>

[KBern]

<cite>Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daig@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collectables are FREE, you get them for nothing, people can charge what they like.</blockquote>So what you are saying is that your time has absolutely no value. </blockquote><p>I would say the majority of time, shinys are acquired while fulfilling some other objective.  In those situations, the time is a non issue...no more than on your way to work to have a $20 bill appear at your feet.</p><p>And even if you want to quantify "time played in a game" then Daig's statement is still correct and valid...people can charge or not charge anything they want for their own time, who better to quantify it than themselves.</p>

[Kendricke]

<cite>Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that 4P 50G was NOT the going price for that master.  It was the only one available and so the owner priced in abnormally high in order to see if someone would bite.  What level 30's toon would pay 4P 50G for one spell if they were a first time player?  Not many. <div></div><div>I just started playing in December and now at level 52 have almost 20P.  I am not hurting for money and have made that money doing exactly what I described.</div><div></div><div>If you "broker hawks" want to buy up my level 30's master at 1P 50G and reprice them higher then go for it- I just made ALL of that in profit and didn't lose anything.</div><div></div><div>I don't try to play economist and just enjoy the game.  I also make it part of my play style to help others and not always be in search of maximizing everything I do.</div><div></div><div>If you do that is great and I hope it helps you enjoy the game.  But there are some of us who do get joy out of doing it a bit different--and that isn't a bad thing.</div><div></div><div></div></blockquote><p>No one's saying what you're doing is wrong.  However, you are wrong if you think you're helping out first time players by selling a master for 1.5pp.  Most first time players aren't buying masters to begin with - at least not at level 30.  You're not helping first time players at that point.  You're helping someone's second or third character - and that someone probably is sitting on hundreds of platinum they're earning from their level 80 primary.  </p><p>So, to recap:</p><p>Brokered items are fungible; there is no difference between the master you're selling and the master anyone else is selling.  The stats for all copies of the same item are identical.  The only difference is price and seller.</p><p>Broker equals open market; open market means anyone can buy.  You can't choose who buys from you.  Chances are much greater than the item will sell to a higher level player (even on a lower level alt) than to a new player.  -More players are long time veterans; less players are here for the first time.  </p>

[thedu]

The only problem I see with this trying to the scenario you propose is how do you determine what the "value" of something is?  who gets to decide and how do they get to decide? I can pretty much guarantee that nobody would be happy with a monitoring system considering what's happened with SoE in the past few weeks.  And I doubt that SoE would even be willing to try and implement something this complicated.It may change if RMT system is implemented but even then I doubt.Caveat Emptor. "Let the buyer beware".

[Rqron]

First of all lets look at the true value of the time spend,Time spend playing eq2 cost..ohh say 15 per month? Thats all it is and ever will be worth it (until the next rate hike) after all it is a game for your enjoyment not work. And unless you are on an exchange server and make real coin this will not change.To put a value one someones time of say harvesting..or adventuring..or crafting..or shinie hunting..or RPing is virtually impossible.Especially, with all those different play styles within EQ2. I know of lvl 80 players that have 10P to they're name and they are perfectly ok and happy with it. I know of players that have 100s of plat to they're name and they are ok too. I know of players that get a "kick" out of playing the broker market..others raid, grind the dungeons, solo the plains, or sit in a tavern and exchange stories...So alone from this point of view, there will be as many different "values" assigned to an item as there are styles of playing the game. People who like to decorate houses will likely "value" a house item a lot higher then a player that like to raid at lvl 80 still lives in an empty room in Willow Wood that has nothing but a couple of sales crates in it.  The "value of harvested items will be different for the lvl 40 harvesting in Feerrott with all the agro around him then for the lvl 80 harvesting in Feerrott that has no worries in the world and 10 times the amount of raws in the same amount of time.So, one may price a piece of ebon at 50G the other at 30g..thats the value of this rare to that person. Chances are, the person that sells it for 30G at the same time sells a lot of other"cheaper" stuff and easy makes up the difference in fact..probably over a given period of time the cheaper seller probably makes a bunch more coin then the more expensive player that sits on the market and probably does not have many items for sale as he appearers to be in no hurry to sell.As an example, my prime objective these days is to do writs in Jarsath wastes and there are some harvesting nodes around there. So in between killing the beast..and waiting for respawn as there are always others killing the same beasts for writs I harvest whatever nodes I find. And I can say I find 2 sometimes 3 rares a night..different kinds but they are there. So once I go back to the broker I put them onto the market ..and as they go for 2-3P a piece I don't mind selling them 50+G cheaper..why? because they are not a prime objective of mine..I don't go out there to solely harvest to make coin..I don't have a big house to decorate I don't have large raiding repair bills to pay and I do not plan on buying any master1s..for my style of playing adep3s are just fine and if I find a master I can use that is just the icing on the cake.J.C.

[Ciara52]

<cite>Daig@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collectables are FREE, you get them for nothing, people can charge what they like.If someone is undercutting you its quite simple, you adjust your price so you are the cheapest if you are looking for a quick sale. Either that or wait it out until the undercutters mechandise is gone and you are the cheapest again.Undercutting will always happen, its part of life in a competitve market, and you have to adjust your prices too if you want to be competitive.Its that simple im afraid. You have to learn to adapt.Also concerning overpriced items you have the choice to pay the price or not. The only other solution is to go and find that item yourself in the dungeon if you dont like what they charging.</blockquote><p>But when people purposely sell 25-30g less or even more  that can hurt crafters when the rares sell so high.</p><p>And if you harvest your heart out for the rares and still can't even sell the item for the cost of said rare it's pretty discouraging.  </p><p>Personally if I see something I needed listed way below the other sellers I won't buy it.  Sure maybe that hurts my bank account but I can't see encouraging those who are undercutting in the extreme</p>

[Eviljoe2]

<p>Ok, I must admit, I did not read EVERY one of the replies between the first and last page, but I want to comment on what I believe is the heart of what the OP was talking about.</p><p>I understand this is a game, but lets face it, you need coin.  And you can adventure to earn some, maybe get a lucky drop on a nice master spell you can sell, but at least for me, to get a  steady flow of income, I need to spend some time harvesting shinies and rares.</p><p>It does get a bit frustrating to see that a rare you just got went for 1.3 plat last week and is only going for 60 gold this week.</p><p>I do not think however they should limit how often you adjust prices.  It is the simple rule of supply and demand meets competition.  I will not price only 1cp below another player, but I will go a couple gold below so that I am the lowest price on the broker.  I will keep lowering my price until it turns red, then I will sell it to an NPC.</p><p>I need cash, and I do not care WHO buys my stuff, whether it is a new player, or a veteran's alt. </p><p>Sometimes I see someone selling my item for a ridiculously low price...so If I can, I buy it myself and sell it for a higher price.</p><p>I price to sell first so when I log in to actually play, I have money.  Maybe only 3 or 4 plat at a time, but it is steady and I like to hear that coin sound when I hit the collect button. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[azekah]

spent*

[Grong]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No one's saying what you're doing is wrong.  However, you are wrong if you think you're helping out first time players by selling a master for 1.5pp.  Most first time players aren't buying masters to begin with - at least not at level 30.  You're not helping first time players at that point.  You're helping someone's second or third character - and that someone probably is sitting on hundreds of platinum they're earning from their level 80 primary.  </p><p>So, to recap:</p><p>Brokered items are fungible; there is no difference between the master you're selling and the master anyone else is selling.  The stats for all copies of the same item are identical.  The only difference is price and seller.</p><p>Broker equals open market; open market means anyone can buy.  You can't choose who buys from you.  Chances are much greater than the item will sell to a higher level player (even on a lower level alt) than to a new player.  -More players are long time veterans; less players are here for the first time.  </p></blockquote>  Maybe what you are missing is that "I" feel I am helping new players.  From the hundreds of items I have sold, how do you know none of them has benefited a new player? You don't.<div></div><div>Maybe it just makes you feel better to use "fungible" and "open market" and try and correct and educate people who don't need it?  If so, I am happy for you and don't feel the need to correct and educate you on the more important things in life as that works for you.</div><div></div><div>And if I was truly not helping anyone-maybe just the thought I was is enough to give me more enjoyment in the game.  If it isn't hurting anyone, then a lot of times things are better left unsaid.<div></div><div>  </div></div>

[Kendricke]

<cite>Ciara52 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daig@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Collectables are FREE, you get them for nothing, people can charge what they like.If someone is undercutting you its quite simple, you adjust your price so you are the cheapest if you are looking for a quick sale. Either that or wait it out until the undercutters mechandise is gone and you are the cheapest again.Undercutting will always happen, its part of life in a competitve market, and you have to adjust your prices too if you want to be competitive.Its that simple im afraid. You have to learn to adapt.Also concerning overpriced items you have the choice to pay the price or not. The only other solution is to go and find that item yourself in the dungeon if you dont like what they charging.</blockquote><p>But when people purposely sell 25-30g less or even more  that can hurt crafters when the rares sell so high.</p><p>And if you harvest your heart out for the rares and still can't even sell the item for the cost of said rare it's pretty discouraging.  </p><p>Personally if I see something I needed listed way below the other sellers I won't buy it.  Sure maybe that hurts my bank account but I can't see encouraging those who are undercutting in the extreme</p></blockquote><p>...and then another player will come along and buy the item for the lower price.  You're not hurting those players or discouraging such pricing in the first place.  For every player who says they won't buy cheap, I'll show you four more who will always take the lowest price.  Honestly, if SOE simply removed the names of the players who were listing product for sale, you wouldn't even know who you are or are not supporting.  </p><p>Here's a fun trick to try sometime:  I often use multiple accounts/characters to sell the exact same item at multiple prices.  I'll often use the 1cp undercut method to list the same product at (X)platinum on one character and then for just 1cp less on another character.  I'll sometimes undercut myself by 5 gold or more on some items (status items are good for this) to take advantage of fluctuating markets.  If the item is particularly high in demand, I'll place the bulk of the product for a higher price on one character while listing a smaller "bait" supply at a lower price on another character.  There are times where I'll actually receive tells on the higher listing character asking if I'll match the price of the lower listing character.</p><p>Due to the way Everquest II is set up, most players never realize they're actually dealing with the same player - across multiple accounts.  In one case, I'm selling a current common high demand harvestible on Guk server across no less than four different characters...and ALL of the character supplies move frequently, even though the price range is over 900% between the lowest and highest listings.  </p>

[Jehannum]

<p>My thoughts:</p><p>1. Well said Kendricke - I agree with most of what you've said here, especially in regard to the expectation of some sort of moralistic fair play ideal.  It doesn't exist in the game just as it doesn't exist in real life, and we can be grateful that the playerbase as a whole has the keys to bringing in new product; less chance of a Microsoft or OPEC that way.</p><p>2. Getting back to the original post's question, I believe that the OP (or their source, it's been a while now since I read that lol) is correct in asserting that small undercuts are healthier for the economy than larger ones.  Small cuts merely establish an equilibrium, above which sales dip and below which re-sale or understocks are threats.  Large cuts have the potential to destabilise prices, but the ability to buy and re-sell limits that, <b>insofar as the original price was fair to begin</b>.  Otherwise, even large cuts can be healthy as they point up incidences of price-gouging for less rare products.  So while small undercuts are less risky to overall pricing stability, even the larger ones tend to be buffered by market influences.</p><p>3.  The prospects for change seem slim.  Other games have forced brokerage payments to be borne by the listing agent (i.e. seller) prior to the item's being listed; some have charged subsequent fees after intervals of time have passed.  These mechanisms tend to force people to price more carefully, but they also depress the economy as a whole.  Requiring prices to stand firm for any interval would have a lesser, but similar effect; Sony's obviously decided that a more active economy is worth any frustration caused by the ability to flexibly adjust pricing.</p>

[StormCinder]

having a blow out sale on AB. Entire inv at 2cp. This post submitted on my Kindle. Woot.. How does that impact market?

[Lichbane]

Meh ... as someone who regularly undercuts others on the Broker, I won't do it for less than 5% of the competition's price.  I want a quick sale, with no fancy gimmicks.  I'm going for CRAZY PRICES with goods FLYING OUT THE DOOR!  COME TO FUZZLEFIZZ'S CRAZY PRICE EMPORIUM.  WE'VE GOT NO NANCY GIMMICKS.  <b>OUR PRICES ARE JUST <span style="color: #ff33ff;">CRAZY</span>!</b>Oops .. sorry.  I got a little carried away there .... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><b></b>

[Solento]

<b>Price as you like:</b> Sure, fine.  All cost is opportunity cost, though.  If the going rate for a collectable is 3p and you decide to sell it for 50g, good for you.  You just cost yourself 2p50g of potential profit.  If you don't CARE, though, that cost doesn't matter.<b>Undercutting:</b> The broker is a market environment where there's no advertising and everyone's selling the exact same stuff.  The ONLY thing distinguishing one listing from another is where it shows up in the results.  Whether it's 1c or 50p less than the next result, the top is the top, and that's very likely to be the first one that sells.  The only difference is the 49p99g99s99c in lost opportunity cost, assuming the second result is priced within market bounds.I don't care if there aren't any other pristine forged carbonite kite shields on the market, nobody's going to pay 3p for one.

[Anesh]

Someone undercutted you? Boo-freaking-Hoo. Put up or shut up. Either undercut them back or do nothing. Such is this game, deal with it.

[Gojira_Shipi-Taro]

The only time I undercut by one copper is if someone starts a blatant undercutting war. Normally I go with the minimum price out there and match. If someone comes in and starts undercutting, I'll do him by one copper. I want to make as much as I can for what I'm selling. If you feel insulted by me doing this, then don't start anything <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gojira_Shipi-Taro]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Have to say undercutting someone's sales by 1cp is a pain and I actually boycott that.  </p></blockquote><p>I hear this a lot, and yet those lower priced items will always sell.  You're not hurting anything or anyone with a personal boycott.  Want to know why?  Because nearly all goods listed on the broker are fungible.  </p><p>My "Golden Cockatrice Feather" is exactly the same as the "Golden Cockatrice Feather" you're trying to sell.  If I decide to sell mine for just one copper/silver/gold lower than yours, it doesn't matter if someone "boycotts" me to buy from you.  Unless you can organize a significant number of buyers to act in the same way, the majority of players (hint: the vast majority of players don't participate in these forums) are likely going to buy the first listed item because it doesn't matter who found the item, or who's listing it - the items are completely interchangeable.  </p><p>That's right - my copper cluster is the same as your copper cluster.  My pristine forged iron leggings are the same as your pristine forged iron leggings.  My Sarnak Hide Buckler is the same as your Sarnak Hide Buckler.  The only difference on the broker is price and who's listed as the seller.  </p><p>If you feel it's a good principled approach for you to pay more coin for the same item, that's for you to decide - but you're not going to alter behavior over it.  Because so long as players exist who continue to buy cheaper, it doesn't matter whether or not you and others keep paying more.</p><p>...</p><p>As a seller, I love undercutters.  I love to send them tells and get into price wars with them.  I love to watch them push their prices lower and lower.  When they finally push low enough, I swoop in, buy the item, and put it back up for sale at a higher price.  People try to bring personal ethics into an open market, and then get upset when other players don't play by the same arbitrary imaginary moralistic rules.  It's an open market.  Don't list an item for less coin than you're willing to accept, and don't become upset if someone actually buys the item you were listing (even if they are listing higher than you were).  </p><p>It's a market.  The point is profit.  I'm not there to make friends.  I make friends grouping in dungeons, interacting in channels, and through the memberships in my guild.  On the broker, I'm there to make a profit.  Frankly, you should be, too.  </p><p>The healthiest economies are competitive.  From a consumer perspective especially, you need players who compete against each other.  Any possible effort to break the cycle of competition (i.e. - personal boycotts against lower prices, for example) are counterproductive towards the idea of a "healthy" economic model.  Fall back to Smith and remember enlightened self-interest and you'll do just fine.  We all will.</p></blockquote>Oh my %DEITY% I just agreed with something Kendricke said 100% and without reservation. I need to check my meds <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gladiia]

<cite>Aneshia@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone undercutted you? Boo-freaking-Hoo. Put up or shut up. Either undercut them back or do nothing. Such is this game, deal with it.</blockquote><p>Eh?  Wrong thread I think.</p><p><cite>Gojira_Shipi-Taro wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The only time I undercut by one copper is if someone starts a blatant undercutting war. Normally I go with the minimum price out there and match. If someone comes in and starts undercutting, I'll do him by one copper. I want to make as much as I can for what I'm selling. If you feel insulted by me doing this, then don't start anything <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>That's probably the best reasoning for 1c undercutting I have ever heard.  As mentioned, I'm the guy on the other side of the fence from the 1c undercutting...but I'll be honest, I hate undercutting by my usual rate 3 days in a row to the same person, and dropping the price by that much.  </p>

[Poetelia]

<p>As a RL economical and political liberalist (Ive always considered kind of funny how the word "liberal" means almost opposite things on one side and the other of the Atlantic Ocean) I firmly believe that any attempt to intervene the free market with artificial rules and regulations, beyond the free will agreements made by 2 adult and responsible people, more often than not brings nefarious consequences in any economy. My friends usually taunt me telling me that Adam Smith and Galbraith were socialists in comparison.</p><p>Items have their own price, fixed by its availability and desirability (the very classic offer and demand), and any attempt to control it through artifical protectionist measures is destined to fail in the end: someone always will have to pay the difference between the real price and the modified one.</p><p>Having said that, nonetheless, I make a special point of never buying an item that undercuts another by a ridiculous amount, a copper or a silver depending on the price. I dont consider that a reasonable and healthy competition... thats a joke, ridiculous and a loss of my time. When I see an item prized 1 plat and another worth 99 gold, 99 silver... you bet Im gonna go for a plat. If you want to enter the competition, do it for real, so the customer gets a real benefit.</p><p>Hmmm... and yet another time I have to agree with Kendricke on a thread... Im beginning to get worried...<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Arslan2000]

<p>I regularly undercut the competition.  My pricing is very simple.</p><p> I look at the base vendor price.  I check to see the lowest price on the Broker at that time.  I set the price for my item at half the lowest price as long as that is greater than the vendors price.  I never charge lower than the vendors price.  If someone undercuts me by the same, I continue with the undercutting up to the vendor price.  Very simple.  Very honest.</p><p>When I see someone selling for less than the vendor price I then have to make the decision.  If the profit is to be made, I buy the item and sell it to the vendor.  I do not reprice it.  I will not get into the flooding the market war while I am trying to make my profit.  Last night, I logged in and checked the broker.  I saw 2 advance weaponsmith books undercutting me by half.  I was at vendor price.  I bought them and vendored them.  I made 1 gold profit, and got rid of competition.  </p><p>I am not going to get into the arguement about pricing lower than vendor costs.  I know it is occasionally done by those that have no idea what they are doing, or by those trying to help others.  That is a nice gesture.  I feel, (In other words this my opinion only) that if someone is unwilling to pay the price to buy a skill book of that level from the broker, I will not give them an advance book for half that price.</p>

[firexcracker]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe if you were not able to change the price of brokered items more than, say, once a week the economy would become more stable. Is this neccessary? Would it be welcome?</p></blockquote>While that idea may sound great in your head, it would certainly make a lot of people angry..If you put an item up on the broker for 50g, and you are stuck with that for a week.. the next person can still put it up for 49g 49s 49c.. so on, and so forth, only this time, everyone is stuck.Undercutters are awful - mainly the ones that undercut by 1cp just to be a [Removed for Content].  I only check and re-set my broker prices once a day.  I'm honestly not that worried about other people selling stuff before me - I'm not in a dire need for coin.  It does get a little irritating when people undercut by such a small amount, or undercut you to the point where you'd make more money by selling the item to an NPC, but it's not that big a deal to me.

[Gladiia]

<cite>firexcracker wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe if you were not able to change the price of brokered items more than, say, once a week the economy would become more stable. Is this neccessary? Would it be welcome?</p></blockquote>While that idea may sound great in your head, it would certainly make a lot of people angry..If you put an item up on the broker for 50g, and you are stuck with that for a week.. the next person can still put it up for 49g 49s 49c.. so on, and so forth, only this time, everyone is stuck.Undercutters are awful - mainly the ones that undercut by 1cp just to be a [I cannot control my vocabulary].  I only check and re-set my broker prices once a day.  I'm honestly not that worried about other people selling stuff before me - I'm not in a dire need for coin.  It does get a little irritating when people undercut by such a small amount, or undercut you to the point where you'd make more money by selling the item to an NPC, but it's not that big a deal to me.</blockquote><p>That is a good point.  I dont know how many times I priced lowest on an item only to find the next day lots more of that item on the broker, and I'm not even on the first page anymore.  With this in place, you would at times find yourself completely locked out of selling that item for possibly the entire week.  </p><p>Also would stink when you accidentally hit 60p instead of 60g, and now you have no hope of selling that item for at least a week - or the other way around, getting that master drop, and accidentally hitting 5g instead of 5p, and now you can't change it to the right price...and you know that one wont stick around for a week.</p>

[Ranek]

I think one of the interesting things that the OP mentioned was "what does this do to the brand new player base".  Oddly enough, I believe it helps them.  They start out not being able to buy a single thing on the broker because the prices are WAY too high.  This means they'll have to use their brains instead of just mindlessly hacking through mobs.When they get to the T1 zones, it's a gold mine.  Harvest shinies until you get some spotted butterflies.  Sell a few of them on the broker to higher levels for their twinks ans Voila! you have yourself a couple a platinum to buy from those overpriced folks now. Then you move on to T2 where you can harvest rares, roots, rocks, and.......super overpriced cracked bone and leaf shinies.New players can make money faster than most veterans due to the fact they're willing to harvest the crap others don't want to touch.  It just takes using their head and not their sword.

[England]

I thought there would be some implied 'social angle' to this thread, but I have yet to find it, but remain leery of the potential for one. LoLThe economy in EQ2 is indeed excellent, and it is NO small feat to achieve for any game. P.S. I tend to buy from people charging a 'good' price and skip those trying to get 'cute' by lowering their price by 2 coppers in order to be the 'cheapest'. It is like insulting you, and making one leap for a lousy 2 coppers. Please.

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<p>If I'm listing something and others have listed it at a price I don't think it is worth I will lower it. If there are 3 of same master up for 5p for 1 week (or even 2 days if I get antsy) and one is mine and none have sold I will start lowering price. What good is a price if no one will pay it? </p><p>My big problem is VERY OFTEN, lets take a collection item, it is actually worth 5 gold, and there are not too many up so I list it at that. a day later, not only have I been undercut but someone has listed a stack of 20 of the same item for 25s (often with a name like cujamicki). If there were not now 25 of those on the market, mine would have sold within a week most likely, now I'll be lucky to get 4s in the end after undercutting wars.</p>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<cite>England wrote:</cite><blockquote>P.S. I tend to buy from people charging a 'good' price and skip those trying to get 'cute' by lowering their price by 2 coppers in order to be the 'cheapest'. It is like insulting you, and making one leap for a lousy 2 coppers. Please.</blockquote>Agree, and if someone undercuts me for 1c I'll just go undercut them a ton because that is really rude IMO.

[Mayl]

<p>A vast majority of players don't care a bit about this whole topic.   I am one of them.  I take the lowest priced item that I am looking for.  Why in the world would I care or want to buy it a higher price.  Even 2 coppers more.</p><p>Heck it shows me that the lowest price person did their homework and at least checked to price their item to move.  It HELPS the player base.</p><p>People that worry about being undercut, are worried strictly about one thing..  The gold/plat that is not in their pocket.  They don't care about anything else..</p><p>so lets not get all high and mighty and pretend this is about anything else.</p>

[bleap]

putting a little more coin on mobs for loot would help. The game has become a game of 2 economies.. the haves with a lot of coin, those who have the time to trade skill a lot and make wanted high end high level items and the have nots, those with very little coin who want to quest and adventure. ?The average coin drop in T8 zones is around 70 sikver, which is crap...a few have 4-5 gold.  This should be the norm

[Vonotar]

<cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My big problem is VERY OFTEN, lets take a collection item, it is actually worth 5 gold, and there are not too many up so I list it at that. a day later, not only have I been undercut but someone has listed a stack of 20 of the same item for 25s (often with a name like <b>czjzmzckz</b>). If there were not now 25 of those on the market, mine would have sold within a week most likely, now I'll be lucky to get 4s in the end after undercutting wars.</p></blockquote>Fixed that name for ya!We all know <i><b>that</b></i> type of person never has a vowel in their name.My rough rule?...(Master I) - Level * 200 Silver, i.e. a 33 Master would be priced for 66g 10s(Adept I) - Level * 20 Silver, i.e. a 33 Adept would be priced for 6g 70sAdvanced ... Volume - Level * 10 Silver, i.e. an Adv Jeweler 33 would sell for 3g 30sEnigma of the ... Volume - Volume # * 10 Silver, i.e. an Enigma 7 would sell for 70sBearing in mind that I only price up items which are of no use to fellow guild members, I still turn a nice profit with these prices.What other people charge I don't really care.

[Sapphirius]

<p>There is no perfect solution. I hate price-gougers as much as I hate undercutters. I don't mind resellers so much. Currently, I price at the lowest current price on the market... unless the item is just stupidly overpriced. I don't undercut, but I don't price gouge either. By keeping at the lowwest current price, I have <i>never</i> failed to sell anything I've listed, with one exception (the one described below).</p><p>I'm having a battle of the prices over one of the GM frostfell robes right now. I have this lovely red and white robe that I acquired some time last week that looks good on only one of my characters. Unfortunately, this character would <i>never</i> willingly wear a robe. She's a complete and total tomboy. So? I decided to sell the robe. A search on the broker revealed this robe listed at 100 plat by player A and 99 plat by player B. I really did not think this robe was worth that much, but I was also still on the fence about whether or not I really wanted to sell this robe. I listed my robe at 99 plat, the lowest current price at that time. Player A relisted her robe at 98 plat the next day. I relisted my robe at 98 plat shortly afterwards. Player A relisted her robe at 95 plat the next day. I relisted mine at 95 plat. Player A relisted hers at 90 plat. I relisted mine at 90. She relisted hers at 89. I relisted mine at 89... and so it continued day after day, sometimes two or three times a day. Player B still had his robe listed at 99 plat. As of last night, this robe is now listed at 60 by player A. Mine is listed at 60 plat, and player B finally woke up and relisted his at 60 plat. In the course of less than a week with Player A trying to undercut me constantly every time that I matched her price, 40 plat was dropped off the price of this robe.</p><p>This can be looked at in one of two ways. <b>A)</b> The buyer is benefitting because the price is going down. <b>B)</b> The seller is suffering because potential value is being lost in an already severely mudflated economy. Personally, I don't give a flyin flip how much I sell this robe for or if I even sell it. I'm having fun watching this player's reaction to me matching her undercut prices. I'm still waiting for her to figure out that we're different alignments, and that, no matter how much she undercuts, goodies will still pay more to buy her robe than mine and vice versa. Somehow, I get the feeling that this player isn't too bright. I'm waiting for her to either give up and stop undercutting me or give up and just buy my robe, relisting them both for a higher price... either way, if my robe sells, I'm happy.</p><p>The problem with undercutting in EQ2 is that people don't wait for the supply to meet or exceed the demand before they begin undercutting. They just undercut to sell their stuff without thought... which leads to situations like dropped and crafted goods selling for only coppers above the vender price/fuel costs. Meanwhile, other goods, such as masters and legendary or fabled items, continue to soar in prices with the lastest master I looked at costing over 300 plat. Am I ever going to get this 300 plat? Not by selling common or tradeskilled goods on the broker. I'd earn that money faster just by vendering everything I find or make.</p><p>The other problem with EQ2 is that the seller has no risk or responsibility in our market system. There is no "shelf life," and the burden of the broker fee falls upon the buyer. This is a system that I have always disagreed with as it encourages overpricing.</p><p>I personally feel that brokered gods shold have a time limit to sell (preferably 24 or 48 hours) to encourage turnover. I feel that sellers should have a bid price (the lowest price they will accept for an item) and a buy-out price (the cost to buy the item directly without bidding). Players can put in a bid for the item and bid against each other for it. This will help determine the true current market value of that item... after all, an item is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. Sometimes, the item will wind up selling for more than the buyout price. Sometimes it will sell at pretty close to the bid price. At the end of the 24 or 48 hours, the item sells to whoever bid the highest on it and is delivered in the mail. Having such a fast turnover will indeed help slow down the rate of undercutting, though it will still happen.</p><p>Now, here's the part of the above system that I catch a lot of flames for... the broker fee. I don't think buyers should be responsible for this. I feel the sellers should have to pay the broker fee, say a flat 10%. The seller will pay a deposit to the broker for listing the item. If the item sells in the alotted time, they get a large portion of that fee back, say 60% of it. If it doesn't sell, they lose that fee. Wait a minute, you mean to list this robe for 100 plat I'll have to pay the broker 10 plat? You're crazy! This will help control prices from climbing too high as well. </p><p>Unfortunately, I already know that this system, while present in other MMORPGs, will never exist in EQ2. Thus, we'll continue to live with items sorely overpriced on the broker and with buyers continually paying the price for those over priced goods... and we'll continue to live with constant underpricing, and sellers suffering from the loss of income they needed to buy those overpriced goods. It's sounds like an oxymoron, I know.</p>

[bleap]

<cite>Mayl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>A vast majority of players don't care a bit about this whole topic.   I am one of them.  I take the lowest priced item that I am looking for.  Why in the world would I care or want to buy it a higher price.  Even 2 coppers more.</p><p>Heck it shows me that the lowest price person did their homework and at least checked to price their item to move.  It HELPS the player base.</p><p>People that worry about being undercut, are worried strictly about one thing..  The gold/plat that is not in their pocket.  They don't care about anything else..</p><p>so lets not get all high and mighty and pretend this is about anything else.</p></blockquote>you are correct. Capitalism is alive and well in EQ2

[NiteWolfe]

<cite>Mayl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>A vast majority of players don't care a bit about this whole topic.   I am one of them.  I take the lowest priced item that I am looking for.  Why in the world would I care or want to buy it a higher price.  Even 2 coppers more.</p><p>Heck it shows me that the lowest price person did their homework and at least checked to price their item to move.  It HELPS the player base.</p><p>People that worry about being undercut, are worried strictly about one thing..  The gold/plat that is not in their pocket.  They don't care about anything else..</p><p>so lets not get all high and mighty and pretend this is about anything else.</p></blockquote> Thats the way iam also i do even look at the name of the seller. i dont care! i take the lowest price listed and i buy that. If its a high plat item i still take the lowest price listed and go to there house to avoid broker fee. When i list something on the broker i insure iam the lowest price on the broker period because i know 90% of the players do the same as i do when i buy. The lowest price item moves first.

[Kendricke]

<cite>Arslan2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I regularly undercut the competition.  My pricing is very simple.</p><p> I look at the base vendor price.  I check to see the lowest price on the Broker at that time.  I set the price for my item at half the lowest price as long as that is greater than the vendors price.  I never charge lower than the vendors price.  If someone undercuts me by the same, I continue with the undercutting up to the vendor price.  Very simple.  Very honest.</p></blockquote><p>I regularly undercut the competition.  My pricing is very simple.  </p><p>I look at the broker at the time.  I set the price for my item at just below the price listed for the lowest price as long as that is greater than the vendors price.  I never charge lower than the vendors price.  If someone undercuts me by half, I buy their item and place both items (mine and theirs) up for the original price I wanted.  I continue doing this daily across multiple characters on multiple accounts.  Very simple.  Very honest.</p><p>P.S. - I use my massive profits to buy kittens and puppies for my guild members.  Shame on any of you who think making lots of platinum is evil. </p>

[Off]

That's exactly what I do if I'm undercut dramatically.  I'll buy that person's item(s) and re-sell at a better price.  There are people who actually complain about others doing what has just been described.  My rebuttal to them is this: You got the price you were asking for on that item, and you can not dictate to others what they do with said item once it's been purchased.  Get over it.I think the market is fine the way it is, and I don't mind good pricing competition.  It keeps things interesting. 

[Mayl]

<p>Oh and one more thing..  When you get undercut by a copper, does that mean that your items will never sell??</p><p>People act like there is only one buyer for whatever item is out there, when in reality, there are dozens willing to buy said item</p><p>So what if you miss me buying your item by one copper?  The guy behind me will take yours cause you are "next on the list"..  </p><p>Who in the world scrolls thru and picks say the 10th lowest seller of an item..</p>

[Miladi]

They should go the WoW auction house way where it acts like Ebay. You list a price, people bid on it and you sell at whatever the bidder will pay for it. You can also set a "Buy it now" price so that if someone wants it bad enough, and they have the cash, they buy it at the preset price instead of bidding for it. PLUS its only listed for a SET amount of time before it gets mailed back to you. That way there's turnover on who's selling what and for how long. Plus the mailed items stay in your mailbox for up to a month, so think of it as extra storage space <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[azekah]

<cite>firexcracker wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Undercutters are awful - mainly the ones that undercut by 1cp just to be a [I cannot control my vocabulary].  I only check and re-set my broker prices once a day.  I'm honestly not that worried about other people selling stuff before me - I'm not in a dire need for coin.  It does get a little irritating when people undercut by such a small amount, or undercut you to the point where you'd make more money by selling the item to an NPC, but it's not that big a deal to me.</blockquote>Why are they awful? Because you are too lazy to check to broker enough to deal with competition?If its not a big deal and your not worried about it why are they awful???<cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Agree, and if someone undercuts me for 1c I'll just go undercut them a ton because that is really rude IMO.</blockquote>Lol, competition is rude? Funny, your losing out on $$ just because your mad at someone...If you and someone else are selling lemonade on the street, you advertise a pictcher for 9.99, the other advertises it as 10.00, who do you think will sell faster/get more business?

[Ashmist]

<p>-dusts off soapbox-</p><p>-gets on soapbox-</p><p>-cough, cough- </p><p>The OP mentioned locking in prices for a week. I personally don't think this is such a good idea. (just my opinion here, let me explain) I happen to be one of those lucky peep's who get's to play quite a bit. I could care less about lvl'ing. To me the fun is in harvesting, tradeskilling, and playing the broker. I have a slew of tradeskillers, all at various lvl's. I sell off of two character's. One on the freeport side, and one on the Qeynos side. I harvest in the morning, send off whatever is needed to whoever, make things, then start the sellin process. For the most part, I see things bein sold for about the right amount. (crafted items mind you, I don't really pay attention to dropped items or collectables) Don't get me wrong, there are quite a few times I see someone overprice or underprice things, but it's not usually a constant thing. (bear with me, explainin all this for reason) I will undercut someone if they put a lvl 52mastercrafted cloak up for 3 frickin plat. Just silly if you ask me. At the same time I won't put same said item up for 40g. I try to keep with about the average going rate of items. I will undercut someone by 1cp in some instances, say someone on the freeport side put's up torsis leaves(so hoping I got that right) for 30cp. I will then put mine up for 29cp. On the other hand if someone put's up an adeptIII lvl 65 spell at 88g, I"ll put mine up for 87g. (if they are freeport side and don't have the veteran's display, I haven't been playing long enough to get this yet : /) Let's have a price war within reason! That can be alot of fun! I"ve actually made quite a few freinds through price wars this way =)</p><p>    That having been said, locking the prices for week takes away all that fun and keeps me from being able to keep up with the market prices. Some weeks something get's dropped more frequently than others. Say I put severed oak up (which I never do, to many ts'rs, but just for instance) for 18g a pop, there's not many on there. Then two days later, severed oak starts droppin like crazy and peep's put it on there for 12g a pop. I can't change my price for a week! That means I make no money. (mind you, I really could care less about the amount of money I actually make, it's the fun in tryin to play the broker) By the time I'm able to sell it at a different price, it's to late, so it's gonna end up sittin there for a while. That does not sit well with me. Like I said, this is where the fun is in-game for me and I happen to know alot of peep's who are the same way. I don't see how this would help the udercutting/overpricing. People are still gonna over/underprice things regardless. If they were to lock prices in for week, it would just frusterate those of us who's favorite part of the game is ts'ing/ brokering. The only solution I see to the under/overpricing things is to figure out an approx. price for each lvl of items (i.e. what lvl they can be made/used at) and figure in a "you can sell it for this much over that price or this much under that price" Take for instance that lvl 52mastercrafted cloak. The going rate on my server is about 80g. So say you set a price range of 60g to 90g. You can put it up for no less than 60g, no more than 90g. That way, if there aren't any on the broker, someone could put it up at the max price. If there are a bunch up there, no one is massivly undercutting and putting it up there for 25g. (which I've seen happen) This helps out new players as well as the veterans and the silly peep's like me who have no life. -wiggles eyebrows-</p><p>      As far as puttin stuff up on the broker for 48hrs max type deal, I think this is another bad idea. (once again, plz keep in mind this is MY OPINION, I am not knockin anyone down for comin up with ideas) We pay rent on our houses for a reason. Go with the 24/48 hr rule, then what's the point of a house and sales crates? I know I only pay rent on my house's that I sell from. My lil ones only pay when they need to drop off a book or house item. Not to mention what if somethin in rl comes up and I can't log in for a few days. I lose out on all my hard work. -sob- As far as the "bid price" bit goes, I guess it could be an option as to whether you wanted to put it up for auction or just sell it on the broker. No one loses that way. Options are always a good thing, eh? =)</p><p>-gets off soapbox-</p>

[UlteriorModem]

<p><gets hammer> Smashes soap box into splinters and tosses splinters into fire.</p><p>Enough already same old topic same opinions same analogys over and over and over and over..... ARgh !!!!!!</p><p>Its a free market treat it as such.</p>

[Vixon]

<p>Okay, since I'm bored (the servers are still down) and because I actually am currently having this issue, I will make a comment. </p><p>I undercut.  I don't know many people who don't.  Do I personally care if someone undercuts me by 1copper?  Not really.  It's when you slash prices so dramatically it's like you're holding a fire sale...and the other sellers are the ones who suffer.</p><p> I am a tailor.  I sell a lot of level 12 and 22 mc stuff.  These items usually sell for around 40g.  I'm estimating, some go a little more, some a little less.  That's the price it USUALLY is.  I didn't gouge up the prices to make a quick 40g.  Now I have someone who has recently started selling the same items (I keep track of the competition) for a significantly lower price.  Actually, he/she slashed the prices by half!  Now if this is the case for a couple items, I'll whine and complain, but I'll live with it.  But this person is selling almost everything I'm selling and has done it on every item.  I could go and buy the item that they're selling and sell it at the usual price, but we're talking 20g a pop.  I don't buy plat and I have a guild to help support.  I don't have a few plat to toss around every time this person decides to put something on broker...plus, now I'm just encouraging them to do it more.  I don't freaking think so!</p><p>You wanna cut my price?  Fine.  But be reasonable about it.  At least stay in the same price range.</p>

[Aenashi]

I got the same problem and the price goes down and down and down.  What i did to combat this was buy out anything under an X amount.  I sell an item lets say.. 1p.  Now if the item is under a plat with broker fees or from there house directly, i will buy it out and put it on mine to sell.  I have a nice stock of items now that are 1p and i just keep the prices at that.  Now sometimes people put it for a couple of copper under me, but that doesnt bug me much, they will buy from me next time.    I sell a lot of items.  I correctly do this with 2 different armor pieces and i have brought up the prices from 20g to a plat and steadily at a plat.  and with 2 different collections.  I brought them up for coppers to 1g each and i sell 10 or so a day.  Yes, that means i got to spend a lot of money, but i have far exceeded the money i put into it.  So its all gravy now and its just steady money coming in.  I make some decent profit off of people that list some items for a couple of gold only.Everyone has the power to keep the market up.  just takes an investment.  Watch your items closely before you start it up because you may be buying into a very dry market.

[NiteWolfe]

<cite>Vixon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, since I'm bored (the servers are still down) and because I actually am currently having this issue, I will make a comment. </p><p>I undercut.  I don't know many people who don't.  Do I personally care if someone undercuts me by 1copper?  Not really.  It's when you slash prices so dramatically it's like you're holding a fire sale...and the other sellers are the ones who suffer.</p><p> I am a tailor.  I sell a lot of level 12 and 22 mc stuff.  These items usually sell for around 40g.  I'm estimating, some go a little more, some a little less.  That's the price it USUALLY is.  I didn't gouge up the prices to make a quick 40g.  Now I have someone who has recently started selling the same items (I keep track of the competition) for a significantly lower price.  Actually, he/she slashed the prices by half!  Now if this is the case for a couple items, I'll whine and complain, but I'll live with it.  But this person is selling almost everything I'm selling and has done it on every item.  I could go and buy the item that they're selling and sell it at the usual price, but we're talking 20g a pop.  I don't buy plat and I have a guild to help support.  I don't have a few plat to toss around every time this person decides to put something on broker...plus, now I'm just encouraging them to do it more.  I don't freaking think so!</p><p>You wanna cut my price?  Fine.  But be reasonable about it.  At least stay in the same price range.</p></blockquote> If hes making a profit hes happy with then wheres the issue? other than you not being happy with his prices. apperntly hes moving his product nicely at the price. its a free market. The rares for those tier of items drop like mad and fuel cost is a joke at those levels. If hes harvesting his own rares then 20g is a lot of profit for level 12/22 mc gear.

[NiteWolfe]

<cite></cite>

[Shandael]

<cite>MZix wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think one of the interesting things that the OP mentioned was "what does this do to the brand new player base".  Oddly enough, I believe it helps them.  They start out not being able to buy a single thing on the broker because the prices are WAY too high.  This means they'll have to use their brains instead of just mindlessly hacking through mobs.When they get to the T1 zones, it's a gold mine.  Harvest shinies until you get some spotted butterflies.  Sell a few of them on the broker to higher levels for their twinks ans Voila! you have yourself a couple a platinum to buy from those overpriced folks now. Then you move on to T2 where you can harvest rares, roots, rocks, and.......super overpriced cracked bone and leaf shinies.New players can make money faster than most veterans due to the fact they're willing to harvest the crap others don't want to touch.  It just takes using their head and not their sword.</blockquote><p>It may be hard for a true new player to understand the market, but the market is a gold mine for new players. There are a lot of quests and drops in the newbie zones which are treasured and tradeable. Those I put on the market for 1gp each, which are usually snapped up by transmuters almost immediately. Sure beats vendoring them for like 4sp. </p><p>I'm an alt-aholic, and by the time I get a new character through their respective starting areas and at lvl 10 or above I've already banked quite a bit of money just from selling unuseable treasured drops to transmuters on the broker. Even T1 roots, ore, and loam fly off the broker at 1sp each.</p><p>True, the new player has to have some understanding of how the broker market works, which most true new players don't, but for those who do the starting areas are a virtual gold mine to help them get flush with cash for when they truly need it at higher levels.</p><p> If anything I think SoE needs to make use of the broker one of the helpful hints for new players just starting out in the game and actually put a broker in the newbie areas to educate them on the benefits and uses of the in-game economy.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Vixon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You wanna cut my price?  Fine.  But be reasonable about it.  At least stay in the same price range.</p></blockquote>I'll list whatever I want for whatever price I feel like.

[Aenashi]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vixon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You wanna cut my price?  Fine.  But be reasonable about it.  At least stay in the same price range.</p></blockquote>I'll list whatever I want for whatever price I feel like.</blockquote>i like people like you, i make money off of you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[thedu]

It's a game. You can play *HOWEVER* you want to play.  As long as your not exploiting the game you can list an item as much as you want or as low as you want.  "Undercutting" is predicated on the belief that there is "some" inherent/consistent value to an item in the game --- there isn't.  Get over it.

[Trynnus1]

<p>Pretty simple - If you dont like being undercut or feeling like you have to under cut to sell your product, but the over person out. Done.</p><p>I sell shinies - LOTS of shinies. I know what the market will bear. As such I know when to buy someone out and when to drop my prices slightly. It has been fun a couple of times to work a toon down and then buy out his stock at 50% and double my investment.</p><p>The other side of things is you might try sending a tell or mail and try to form an oligopoly to hold pricing steady. I have done this too to do very well on a few desired items.</p><p>My only pet perv - people without sales crates. I will NOT buy from you if you dont have a crate for me to avoid broker fees. I dont mind paying 40 plat for a master but I am not blowing another 10 or 20 plat to the broker.</p>

[Dragon]

Trying to mess around with supply and demand through developer means is not a good thing in games.  You have drop rates already to worry about, you have amount of players in x-y level range, etc.  Undercutting (whether small or large) or competitive pricing, as it is called, is an important part of economics.So, if you would rather have a dictated market and economic system, then shoot... might as well not let anyone post specific prices for items (they are all worth a factor based on vendor price, rarity, and quality level... all factors would be decided by the development team).  And tada... no more free market.  No more undercutting, and no more competition between sellers and buyers.  Not sure how this would be a good thing in anyway.

[Solento]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe if you were not able to change the price of brokered items more than, say, once a week the economy would become more stable.</p></blockquote>But the market is part of the game.  As in, having a dynamic marketplace really MAKES the game for some people.I *really* miss one of the AH features from FFXI.  They tracked the last... ten? or so selling prices for any given item.   So if you were selling a stack of fish, you could price it knowing what people have been paying.  The effect of outliers was pretty easily ignored.  The problem with EQ2's broker is that the only prices you see are for the items that have NOT sold.

[Arslan2000]

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arslan2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I regularly undercut the competition.  My pricing is very simple.</p><p> I look at the base vendor price.  I check to see the lowest price on the Broker at that time.  I set the price for my item at half the lowest price as long as that is greater than the vendors price.  I never charge lower than the vendors price.  If someone undercuts me by the same, I continue with the undercutting up to the vendor price.  Very simple.  Very honest.</p></blockquote><p>I regularly undercut the competition.  My pricing is very simple.  </p><p>I look at the broker at the time.  I set the price for my item at just below the price listed for the lowest price as long as that is greater than the vendors price.  I never charge lower than the vendors price.  If someone undercuts me by half, I buy their item and place both items (mine and theirs) up for the original price I wanted.  I continue doing this daily across multiple characters on multiple accounts.  Very simple.  Very honest.</p><p>P.S. - I use my massive profits to buy kittens and puppies for my guild members.  Shame on any of you who think making lots of platinum is evil. </p></blockquote><p>Ironically Kendricke, I have no issues with this.  I made the money I want. You make the money you want.  My stock keeps moving.  If I feel that the price is overflated, as it usually is, I am fine with what I make.  </p><p>If it makes vendor price or better, I made a profit. </p><p>The problem is that some things are not worth the over inflated price caused by those who buy their rares, or imbueing materials.  My fiance and I harvest all of what we need.  We do not sell the rare ingrediants.  We use them.  This means that when I sell a feysteel imbued chest piece, I can make a better profit even when I undercut everyone else.  When someone buys it, I am happy.  </p><p> Let us both carry on. </p>

[Tricit]

<p>It is actually to your advantage that they only undercut you by a single piece of copper. Think of it this way-</p><p>First of all, they cut off the majority of their possible buyers by doing so just through their pure hatred for such types of undercuts.</p><p>Secondly, you can then only effectively undercut yourself only by, for instance, on items that are around 10goldish, 1 gold, instead of 2 gold, because they only undercut you by 1 copper. </p><p>Finally, sure they come back and may just undercut you by 1 copper, but first and second simply come back into play, rinse and repeat.</p><p>Therefore, what they do is not all that harmful, and has equal points to being both negative and positive to themselves and the people they're undercutting.</p><p>Think of it this way and the stress that shouldn't even be created of these types of undercuts will halt it's practice from shortening your lifespan.</p>

[XAvengerX]

<cite>Josua@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I *really* miss one of the AH features from FFXI.  They tracked the last... ten? or so selling prices for any given item.   So if you were selling a stack of fish, you could price it knowing what people have been paying.  </blockquote><p>Final Fantasy XI's AH system sucks, there was no advanced search (in fact there wasnt really any search feature), and you had to spend 10 minutes hunting categories to find out prices for items.</p><p>Its whole interface is just purely terrible.</p><p>I dont miss that at all <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[erin]

<cite>Tricit wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is actually to your advantage that they only undercut you by a single piece of copper. Think of it this way-</p><p>First of all, they cut off the majority of their possible buyers by doing so just through their pure hatred for such types of undercuts.</p></blockquote>You are massively overestimating the number of people who care enough about undercutting to bother buying the next item up.  Yes there is a small vocal minority on these forums that scream about 1 cp undercutting and claim (note CLAIM) they buy the next one up.  But just ask 10 random people in game, and you'll get "huh?" from almost all of them.  Most people don't care.Even if they did, once the 2nd item (the one from the non-undercutter) is gone, that leaves the undercutter as the next item to buy and it will still sell.  As someone already said, there's more than 1 buyer out there!

[wullailhuit]

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tricit wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is actually to your advantage that they only undercut you by a single piece of copper. Think of it this way-</p><p>First of all, they cut off the majority of their possible buyers by doing so just through their pure hatred for such types of undercuts.</p></blockquote>You are massively overestimating the number of people who care enough about undercutting to bother buying the next item up.  Yes there is a small vocal minority on these forums that scream about 1 cp undercutting and claim (note CLAIM) they buy the next one up.  But just ask 10 random people in game, and you'll get "huh?" from almost all of them.  Most people don't care.Even if they did, once the 2nd item (the one from the non-undercutter) is gone, that leaves the undercutter as the next item to buy and it will still sell.  As someone already said, there's more than 1 buyer out there!</blockquote>I agree with Erin , regardless of one or two people refusing to buy from price cutters , there are plenty out there who's only concern is getting what they need at the lowest price...Personally I have an initial price and a lowest price I am willing to sell at,  to give what I consider a reasonable profit (I won't start by pricing an invis totem at over 2g each as that's just way too high imo, but I won't go under 1g, for example).I will keep lowering my prices to match the lowest price going several times in a day upto that point , after which I leave the item there , they all sell eventually.If people want to sell items for 1c under what I'm selling then I really don't care , I'm getting what I consider a fair profit based on time spent harvesting/crafting and tradeskill leveling to a level to make that object , if they want to make less than that for the same effort / cost then it's their loss , not mine.

[Solento]

<cite>Daig@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Josua@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I *really* miss one of the AH features from FFXI.  They tracked the last... ten? or so selling prices for any given item.   So if you were selling a stack of fish, you could price it knowing what people have been paying.  </blockquote><p>Final Fantasy XI's AH system sucks, there was no advanced search (in fact there wasnt really any search feature), and you had to spend 10 minutes hunting categories to find out prices for items.</p><p>Its whole interface is just purely terrible.</p><p>I dont miss that at all <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>That'd be the part where I really miss <i><b>ONE</b></i> feature from FFXI's auction house.  Transaction tracking was fantastically helpful.  The rest of it... I'll take what we've got here, thanks.

[Fantasydr75]

<p>The only time when undercutting annoys me is when someone charges below the cost to make an item and has a lot of the item for sale.  You want to sell the same item which you have made.  So, taking into account fuel, I make a level 40 piece of jewelry, and somebody is selling say, 10 of them for below cost.  It leaves you kind of stuck.  You're either going to have to wait two weeks for 10 earrings of that guy's to sell, or just end up selling your stuff to a vendor.  Which is very disheartening considering you've stood there crafting instead of hunting so that you can make money.  </p><p>Undercut me all you like, but at least charge an amount that will make money.  And that doesn't mean 1 silver over vendor value.  What's the point?</p>

[Trellium]

Kendrick and I seem to operate almost identically, but I also change the way I buy or sell based on what time of the week it is. I generally do my price wars during the week and rarely on weekends. People say things like "I want mine to sell FAST so I price it cheaply", but I find that really has little effect overall. It seems to me that its not a steady trickle of sales and new items hitting the market, but rather very much feast or famine. I often see people buy several items at once. For collectibles its because alts need them too, and for some collectibles you need several per character. For treasured, people sometimes seem to buy up lots of items to use to make nice with their gods.When people undercut me, it really doesn't hurt overall sales. Sure, I might not have gotten "that sale" but I would get the one after that, or some other item is sold. It all works out over time. If you have the need to rush out your sales, then price is really your only option. For my wife and I, we don't care if we sell an item today, tomorrow, or next week. The only time that is not true for us is if we have more items than broker slots, and since all alts can sell we find that to be a non-issue.So, we do price wars according to our own desires. We started EQ2 a few months ago, and at first we always sold at the lowest price compared to other sellers. But, once we had a decent variety of inventory to sell, we decided to change our prices to be in the mid-range compared to everyone else. We expected our overall money to drop substantially until the rare sales came through. Instead, we found we made much more money over the course of a week, even though we still sold the same sorts of things.We certainly aren't hard up for money in EQ2, its very different from the EQ1 environment. We are happy when others price-war, or heavily undercut our prices. We follow for a short time to drive the prices down as low as possible, then buy up stock to resell at our normal prices. Normal isn't "sky high", but rather the highest price we can get that still provides steady sales.

[Yngwiem]

<p>I am one of those who do not buy from people who undercut by 1cp. I will pay the extra cp. Why? Because the person undercutting really isn't giving me muh of a deal. It takes him more effort to undercut by 1cp than it is worth. At least when I undercut, I do it where it is worth the buyers time as well as my time (because I will move product that way). </p><p>However, if I see that the prices on a particular item is well underpriced, I will pull my item off of the broker and wait to sell it another day.</p><p>What I don't get though are those people who put stuff on the broker for less than they could get if they just sold it to an NPC. I mean, you put a breastplate on the broker. Before you even set the price, it has a "recommended" price that you would get from a NPC. However, people are now undercutting that!!! </p><p>As for the OP... being able to only change your prices once a week would only hurt the true brokers. The people who undercut by very little are most likely just putting a couple of things up for sale. They don't do it every day. So that would mean that I set my price. Then comes along someone who is selling 1 book, so he doesn't care what he makes, so he puts his book out for 1cp below me. However, I am locked for 1 week. </p>

[Melodee]

<cite>Yngwiem wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What I don't get though are those people who put stuff on the broker for less than they could get if they just sold it to an NPC. I mean, you put a breastplate on the broker. Before you even set the price, it has a "recommended" price that you would get from a NPC. However, people are now undercutting that!!! </p></blockquote>I agree! This is one of my worst pet peeves. Yes, it's irritating to be undercut by a copper, It's irritating to see an item worth 50 gold selling for less than 10 gold. But the worst thing is seeing items at or below what the broker can give. The standard reply has been "well, buy it and sell it at a better price". That would work if it were only one or two items, but EVERYone has been doing it lately. Sometimes I want to send a nasty tell/mail and ball them out but I'm far too nice to do that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Banqy]

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>The other side of things is you might try sending a tell or mail and try to form an oligopoly to hold pricing steady. I have done this too to do very well on a few desired items.</p><p>My only pet perv - people without sales crates. I will NOT buy from you if you dont have a crate for me to avoid broker fees. I dont mind paying 40 plat for a master but I am not blowing another 10 or 20 plat to the broker.</p></blockquote><p>Seems to me, you could send a /tell or mail to that person selling a master for 40 plat, too. I bet ya they'd be more than happy to sell it directly to you rather than maybe not selling that master spell for days/weeks. I know I would. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Alis_Landale]

Final Fansay AH is the worst AH I've seen in all MMORPG games I've been playing since 1999. It shows a brief history of prices that are under RMT's control. You don't know who is selling and it protects RMT from being boycotted by legit players. The entire crafting of FFXI is under RMT hands, to make profit there with crafting you need to spend a lot of time browsing the AH to find a place they are not controlling at the moment. But it takes 1 day for them to perceive and flood the market so you can't sell anymore.Final Fantasy XI is a dead game filled with botters, hackers, corrupted players and real money traders. It's by far the worst community in terms of lack of decency and morals. Even WOW community is better, cause they are just plain immature. In FFXI people will do things to get stuff that would shock even veteran MMORPG players.FFXI is the worst comparison ever in almost any aspect of a MMORPG. I played that for 2 years with 3 level 75 jobs. I know what I'm talking about.

[SaibotLiu]

<p>Well I just came back to the game after years so I can maybe give you a newbies perspective on it. There is no reason to undercut, and there is not reason not to undercut. I dont find myself wanting in terms of coin on this game. I play with my combat exp turned off and just quest and do different things. Anything treasured I find, any collectible I find, I put it on the broker and undercut the lowest price so I can make room for the next round of stuff. By selling quantity over maximum profit I have 5 plat and Im level 24. Could I have made more? Probably. Do I need more? No I dont. I just want to get rid of the stuff. And Im not worried about the effect lowering prices has on an mmorpg economy. Thats too funny. Because every mmorpg economy that Ive ever seen goes to hell because of inflation. People who are helping to lower prices are actually doing a good thing for the economy, and new players like myself are the benefactors. We havent had years to amass tremendous wealth to twink our characters out. If you're not making enough money due to undercutting...that means there are things out there that you may want that are cheaper because of the same thing. With transmuter's buying treasured items and collections always fetching a good price, new players are viable right from the get-go in the economy. So personaly I see it as a non-issue.</p>

[bleap]

People aren't stupid. 99% of people aren't going to pay one copper more than they need to to get an item....period...So regardless of what I might think something is worth, the truth is that things are only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. yes I undercut..not by a lot..which means I have to check my prices often and adjust them...I still make a decent profit....I only sell things I have harvested or looted because trade skilling is like watching paint dry to me AND because there are always people who seem to be able to price their wares lower than what my cost might be...I am not a charity...So sue me, I undercut...and those who buy from me thank me for doing so...I would rather be a friend to a buyer than to a whining seller...Buyers make paydays possible....sellers make drama...I don't need the drama...

[Talz]

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0324224729/ref=cm_cr_rev_prod_img" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...cr_rev_prod_img</a>This isn't a plug because I don't particularly like the author but it's a solid book so I have to give credit where it's due.Most MMO economy threads are goofy.  Some more than others.  Some people seem to try though and just miss the mark.  I'll put that link there instead of correcting things and having it randomly questioned.  The chapters are short compared to most textbooks but a basic grasp of the concepts make it worth the price.  I'm sure determined people with the internet could get it free somehow.So much WoW hate on these forums.  Visit the unmoderated EQ2 site.  People are the same in both games.  Don't play with younger people if they bother you so much.  You can avoid them there just as easy as you can here.  Sometimes things are just that simple.

[Seffrid]

<p>What people who complain about undercutting seem to forget are two simple truths:-</p><p>First, people price to sell. That means they have to be the cheapest. If you aren't pricing to sell, why are you even bothering?</p><p>Second, the person complaining about being undercut is usually being hypocritical because the chances are he undercut the person who was cheapest before he entered the market.</p><p>As for me, I price to sell but if the current lowest price is reasonable and the item is sufficiently popular to sell multiple times then I will match the lowest price. If I do undercut then if it's a cheap item I'll undercut slightly (but not by as little as coppers) or if it's an expensive item I'll undercut significantly - sometimes enough to attract the attention of the other sellers if I'm keen to sell very quickly.</p>