So if not STR AA for leveling, what line?

[Mayl]

<p>My bruiser is now 33rd, I have 34 AA's.  I went full STR AA line (only 4 in str, then 8/8/8/2)</p><p>Reading up here it appears that STR is not the end all.  While I like the end ability, rest is so so</p><p>I am not twinked but got lucky on some LON cards so I have some plat.  I have 32nd level MC armor and can afford two MC weapons at my level.  If I did that, what AA line do you suggest? </p><p>Oh I either solo or play the dps role.  When I group it is in the dps slot for my trio as we have a guardian and mystic in our set up.</p><p>I was thinking INT for the crits, but rest of line is ehh</p>

[SidneyLePoilu]

I too have a new bruiser so I asked my buddy who raids with his bruiser and he told me to go strait to le INT line to start with the crits and then go for the AGI line until the end, thith what you're going to have left over go for the WISS line to max your AEsthat is what i'm going for, but then again i'm a new here so if a pro answers take his advice than mine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[tanus]

If you plan on soloing often...or tanking as you level.  I'd suggest go Int first, max your crits put 6 in parry then get the end ability for the "just in case" aspect.  I'd then go 4 4 8 in AGI to get the max reuse timers since Bruiser CA's are terribly slow on refreshing.  Like was stated above, then go 4 4 8 ? 2 in Wis to get craneflock/max ae proc/extra hps.  I like hps...so I'd prolly max out the ? in the wis line lol.  Any extra pts I'd spend in avoidance aa's...not a good raid setup, but you can respec once you finish up leveling your toon.

[Mayl]

<p>Ok thank you for the tips..</p>

[Pnaxx]

<p>Actually folks, you may have misunderstood the argument here on the STR Line. The one thing most of us agree on is that it is great for leveling. Once you hit 70, you may fare better with the Legendary/Fabled Weapons.</p><p>So for leveling, the STR line is a great way to go. Your fists, which are Fabled,  are better than the MC stuff for sure and are free. So stick with the STR Line til you level to 70...72...then you can get out of it. There is no need to waste your plat on MC/Leg weapons at that level as they will be worse and will cost you plat. Also, you will prolly be going through the levels kinda fast, so thats another reason for STR Line as you will be just buying new gear before you know it.</p>

[Solu]

<p>I'm more or less in the same boat as you so I took the time to do a real quick and dirty on paper comparison of the trees.  Here's my observations and the more experienced feel free to correct anything I presumed.</p><p>STR line assuming standard 4/4/8/6/2 spread gets 96% double attack, 4% riposte, 4% 360 degree parry but you have to use fists.  So ignoring procs, compared to same level weapons its roughly 30% auto attack boost, tack another 4% for riposte, x% from crush mit debuff and Chi speaks for itself.</p><p>AGI line is crap solo since your limited to 50 or 70 in the tree and its only shining star is a 12% reduction in CA timers.  Turns our 30s attacks into 27s ones... ohhh ahhh.  Moving on.</p><p>STA gives you a ranged STA debuff, 24% single target proc, 1.8 deflect and a teleport crit skill.  Here's where the pros can fill in the blanks.  Can the proc go off from CAs?  Does the STA debuff happen before or after the attack damage?  Do MOBs even have STA to reduce?  </p><p>WIS gives you an AE knockdown, 16% AE proc, 3% max hp and Crane Flock.  Similar to STA, can CAs proc the AE.  The final ability get the most out of 2H weapons though so are you tied to a 2H?</p><p>INT gives you an easy way to use our positional skill and of course no damage to you while active, 18% crit on any auto or CA attack, 2.4 parry and Eagle Shriek which turns your dieing into a strength.</p><p>So in the end the only real questions are, can procs come from CA attacks, how much of your dps is auto-attack on average and does the AE line hurt as much as it helps since you could very well proc onto a MOB that would have ignored you otherwise.</p><p>I originally planned on marching down STR to Chi then INT to Eagle but now I wonder.  INT for sure, AGI no thanks, but STR/STA/WIS hmmm.</p>

[Mayl]

<p>Well my original enjoyment from STR was the dps of bare fists (and the cost savings) plus Chi.  Chi really is that great.  Since I mostly solo, that is my "i win button" vs named mobs </p><p>So I was thinking keep my maxed STR line and then get 8 into the INT Crit line for 24% crits.</p>

[ganjookie]

The STR is good for leveling, <b>unless</b> you have money for good MC inbued weapons/legendary or fabled weapons, IMHO.

[tt66]

44862 STR and INT is still the best solo levelling spec until you reach Kunark.WIS helps keep AE aggro in groups, and AGI is nice in raids, but when you're hitting things on your own then there is no better spec than STR/INT.

[Rayche]

"Str until you reach Kunark" is even a bit misleading.You will be HARD pressed to find a weapon combo that replaced the absolute power that IS 10% Double attack and CHI.Granted, my bruiser is only level 72, but I dropped fabled weapons in favor of the STR line after 2 agonizing levels with weapons and I can tell you bare handed is GODLIKE compared to a weaponed spec.I have an 80 Monk buddy that raids all the time and hasn't found a weapon set that has made it worth it to leave the Str spec either, and he parses higher than the other Monks (With weapons) in his raids.STR all the way until you find yourself at the end game with a weapon so amazing... so rare...  when you can say:<i>"I got Grognar's Hammer last night... it's so awesome and rare that even Grognar didn't know he had it."</i>Then you can leave the STR line.

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Str until you reach Kunark" is even a bit misleading.You will be HARD pressed to find a weapon combo that replaced the absolute power that IS 10% Double attack and CHI.Granted, my bruiser is only level 72, but I dropped fabled weapons in favor of the STR line after 2 agonizing levels with weapons and I can tell you bare handed is GODLIKE compared to a weaponed spec.I have an 80 Monk buddy that raids all the time and hasn't found a weapon set that has made it worth it to leave the Str spec either, and he parses higher than the other Monks (With weapons) in his raids.STR all the way until you find yourself at the end game with a weapon so amazing... so rare...  when you can say:<i>"I got Grognar's Hammer last night... it's so awesome and rare that even Grognar didn't know he had it."</i>Then you can leave the STR line.</blockquote>Thtas encouraging.

[tanus]

<p>Come to Blackburrow and I'll buy you your MC weapons.  Sure Str may be good for lvling since you dont have to spend cash on weapons...but why should an AA line stay put for people who are lvling up their toons when there is a large portion of the brawler community at max lvl and have been at max lvl for a long time now. (my own personaly griping aside).</p><p>Please read the posts about it, do not use 96% Double Attack as a selling point.  Str line treats your fists as a 2h weapon with 2.5s delay.  You will get "100% double attack" duel weilding if you think of it that way...cause that 4% you arent swinging your suddenly 2h fist the DW brawler will swing his 2ndary weapon. </p><p>Craneflock (the endline wis ability) has no weapon requirement...as a matter of fact ONLY the Str line has a requirement.  The wis/sta procs say melee attack...not autoattack, CA's are melee attacks...should proc off of them.</p><p>Wis ability 4 is 4% max hps, not 3%.</p><p>Str/Int is a fantastic spec if you can't afford weapons...but PLEASE don't tell me its the best, because frankly you arent taking into account the huge penalties you get for using just your fist.  Sure the damage is pretty decent as you lvl but its a 2h w/crap delay so you will have terrible crits.  You get absolutely no stats.  You dont get as many procs...nor can you adorn your fist (w/ procs or parry or whatever). I don't have anything to say about the ripost and parry from the Str line, but seriously...brawler avoidance is extremely high as you lvl.  As for Chi? I want it...too bad 20 points would be completely wasted getting to the final ability.  </p><p>You monk buddy that is barehanded and raids...have him app to rapture and try to outparse me...your friend either is great at timing CA's, he had better buffs, or the other monks sucked completely. (course they could have just had garbage weapons).</p><p>K, I'm done.  </p>

[ganjookie]

Do you group?Do You raid?What types of parses are you getting ZW there?    I can bet that it's not up to par with another AA lineup and weapons.  the STR line sadly is NOT godlike.  It is not favored by good bruisers that group and raid a lot or SOLO for that matter<hr /><span class="name"><b>Gojirax said</b>"</span><span class="postbody">Str until you reach Kunark" is even a bit misleading.You will be HARD pressed to find a weapon combo that replaced the absolute power that IS 10% Double attack and CHI.Granted, my bruiser is only level 72, but I dropped fabled weapons in favor of the STR line after 2 agonizing levels with weapons and I can tell you bare handed is GODLIKE compared to a weaponed spec.I have an 80 Monk buddy that raids all the time and hasn't found a weapon set that has made it worth it to leave the Str spec either, and he parses higher than the other Monks (With weapons) in his raids.STR all the way until you find yourself at the end game with a weapon so amazing... so rare...  when you can say:<i>"I got Grognar's Hammer last night... it's so awesome and rare that even Grognar didn't know he had it."</i>Then you can leave the STR line</span><hr /><span class="postbody"></span>

[Golbone]

<p>So Im trying to do some research for my brother in law.. and he is a STR spec'd Bruiser and likes it, but had just dinged 78 and thinks its time for a change.   I am trying to figure out a decent alternative build for him.. from what Im hearing here it sounds like Ill tell him to keep at least 4-4-8 into INT for the crits.. but where to go from there Im lost.</p><p> As far as weapons, he is looking at the following 3,</p><p><a href="http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1123671091" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1123671091</a></p><p> <a href="http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/2118652843" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/2118652843</a></p><p><a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1963772472" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1963772472</a></p><p>Which 2 would you guys say would suit him the best and with which build?</p><p>Thanks in advance for the advice.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Golbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So Im trying to do some research for my brother in law.. and he is a STR spec'd Bruiser and likes it, but had just dinged 78 and thinks its time for a change.   I am trying to figure out a decent alternative build for him.. from what Im hearing here it sounds like Ill tell him to keep at least 4-4-8 into INT for the crits.. but where to go from there Im lost.</p><p> As far as weapons, he is looking at the following 3,</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1123671091" target="_blank">http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1123671091</a></p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/2118652843" target="_blank">http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/2118652843</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1963772472" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1963772472</a></p><p>Which 2 would you guys say would suit him the best and with which build?</p><p>Thanks in advance for the advice.</p></blockquote>I have all 3 and it's hard to tell which is best tween the Kuckle Dusters and the Star of Morning Glory. The haste doesn't stack with the MC robe and the Star...but it has a nice proc. The Knuckle Duster is selling for cheap on my server Lucan, the other 2 are more xpensive. You can't go wrong with any of them rweally.

[ganjookie]

Ignore the Morning Star, get the other two if those are your only options. 

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Dralvin@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Come to Blackburrow and I'll buy you your MC weapons.  Sure Str may be good for lvling since you dont have to spend cash on weapons...but why should an AA line stay put for people who are lvling up their toons when there is a large portion of the brawler community at max lvl and have been at max lvl for a long time now. (my own personaly griping aside).</p><p><span style="color: #ff6666;"><b><u>Please read the posts about it, do not use 96% Double Attack as a selling point.  Str line treats your fists as a 2h weapon with 2.5s delay.  You will get "100% double attack" duel weilding if you think of it that way...cause that 4% you arent swinging your suddenly 2h fist the DW brawler will swing his 2ndary</u></b> </span>weapon. </p><p>Craneflock (the endline wis ability) has no weapon requirement...as a matter of fact ONLY the Str line has a requirement.  The wis/sta procs say melee attack...not autoattack, CA's are melee attacks...should proc off of them.</p><p>Wis ability 4 is 4% max hps, not 3%.</p><p>Str/Int is a fantastic spec if you can't afford weapons...but PLEASE don't tell me its the best, because frankly you arent taking into account the huge penalties you get for using just your fist.  Sure the damage is pretty decent as you lvl but its a 2h w/crap delay so you will have terrible crits.  You get absolutely no stats.  You dont get as many procs...nor can you adorn your fist (w/ procs or parry or whatever). I don't have anything to say about the ripost and parry from the Str line, but seriously...brawler avoidance is extremely high as you lvl.  As for Chi? I want it...too bad 20 points would be completely wasted getting to the final ability.  </p><p>You monk buddy that is barehanded and raids...have him app to rapture and try to outparse me...your friend either is great at timing CA's, he had better buffs, or the other monks sucked completely. (course they could have just had garbage weapons).</p><p>K, I'm done.  </p></blockquote>Ok...this argument makes sense to me. When I showed the /weapon stats...there is only one fist. And the dmg wasn't as good on that as one Legendary Weapon, not to mention adornments. So im digging ur argument funkyness. You would think that the 2 handed weapon would have much bigger stats, like a 2 handed bow or something. So any, not a bad argument. And your right about a guaranteed double attack with the 2nd weapon with that analogy. Again, im cool with anyone who wants to use the STR Line...I use it now and then.

[fur]

<p>I just came back to eq2 from a 2 year break and had alot of catching up to do with my bruiser (ALOT).</p><p>One thing when reading up on the strength line that annoy me though is that there is alot of "it feels like its better" type of comments floating from both sides of the fence what im looking for is some serious parsing / comparison with actual math backing up the theorycrafting.</p><p>First of all i dont see anyone mention the dual wield delay penalty that is in place (33% if im not mistaken) that means a dw setup will be losing alot of ground versus the barefist alternative (if you got skills enough to time ca's between swings) adornments and stats will close the gap of that i have no doubt but where is the "breaking point"?</p><p>Also i saw someone commenting on unarmed having small crits, well the size of the crits shouldnt matter unless you are missing swings because of bad ca timing skills (aka wasting hits because of using ca's instead of letting a autoswing fire) because a faster weapon will get the same crit damage over time even if it has "smaller crits" because it will crit more frequently (delay based crit system same as wow)</p><p>One thing that fascinates me with eq2 is that a big part of how well you dps is based around the player not the mechanics because you dont have a rolling autoattack ala wow, instead you have to time ca's with autoswings in order to max dps which means skill will play a huge part in determining what a player feels is best therefore the important thing with the str vs weapon theorycrafting is determining what the pure auto attack dps is str vs weapons.</p><p>If someone who have access to legendary weapons can parse autoattack dps unarmed , with legendary weapons , fabled weapons it should be much easier to verify what actually IS better and when/if weapons actually beats unarmed.</p><p>(reason you want to parse only autoattack dps is because ca + auto dps will be flawed as it will vary depending on the player how good/bad the dps will be, making any ca+auto test flawed from the start.)</p>

[Solu]

<p>Parsing has been done, unarmed is a 30% boost to AA over weapons.  It costs 16 AA so that should be no surprise and is in line with other AA trees.  People who like unarmed go STR/INT/X weapon lovers like INT/WIS/X.  Pick your poison, I don't like procs so I'm STR/INT/AGI.  Surprisingly the worthless on paper recovery buff really feels nice with no real delay between actions.  Numbers wise it might be tiny, but it looks more fluid in-game.</p>

[Lortet]

<p>starting with an apology for not looking at the brawler table, but I am not at my "eq2 pc" atm. I hadn't really looked closely at the WIS line before - is it a true aoe or encounter effect?  I had not taken it as an uncontrolled aoe seemed a liability to me in pulling in currently uninvolved mobs, sundry city guards etc.</p>

[ganjookie]

<cite>Solude wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Parsing has been done, unarmed is a 30% boost to AA over weapons.  It costs 16 AA so that should be no surprise and is in line with other AA trees.  People who like unarmed go STR/INT/X <b>weapon lovers like INT/WIS/X.</b>  Pick your poison, I don't like procs so I'm STR/INT/AGI.  Surprisingly the worthless on paper recovery buff really feels nice with no real delay between actions.  Numbers wise it might be tiny, but it looks more fluid in-game.</p></blockquote>I'm sorry but on the bolded part I think you mean good bruisers rather then weapon lovers.  No Bruiser worth his salt would go that route for DPS.

[ganjookie]

<cite>Hykaree@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>starting with an apology for not looking at the brawler table, but I am not at my "eq2 pc" atm. I hadn't really looked closely at the WIS line before - is it a true aoe or encounter effect?  I had not taken it as an uncontrolled aoe seemed a liability to me in pulling in currently uninvolved mobs, sundry city guards etc.</p></blockquote>here ya go bro<a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Brawler_AAs" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Brawler_AAs</a>

[Solu]

<p>Blink blink good bruisers love INT/WIS but wouldn't go that route for dps?  So confused.</p>