Harm Touch Complaint Thread

[Seredo]

I don't know if this has been said in this forum before but as EQ1 proved that the only way things get done is with mass complaints.  Harm Touch is comparitively [Removed for Content].  I regularly see Devastation Fist hit for around 50k on raids, hell I even saw a 90k dropped.  Now Im not complaining that Brawlers should have DF nerfed because in honesty they need that spell to be useful on raids, but isn't Harm Touch supposed to be the biggest hit in the game?  I mean hell the name of the T8 version is Death Touch, and I can't even one shot an even con single down arrow.  Maybe Im remembering EQ1 too much but Harm Touch used to actually mean something on raids and SK's were actually useful because as it stands we can't tank nearly as effectively as guardians, zerkers, and paladins.  Our buffs are nothin unless we get the AA buffs and we do [Removed for Content] dps.  So what exactly do we do on raids?  I mean instead of adding a lifetap to Harm Touch with AA couldn't you give us something that increases its damage or add a splurt (a dot whos damage increases with each tick) effect on it or something that is more useful than a 1700 heal cause with 14k on raids 1700 isn't much and ht can be resisted.  Maybe Im being unreasonable but I'd like to think that there are more of us out there that are sick of being left out on raids and would like to see this spell tweaked a bit.  Ok done complaining now, any counter points would be appreciated, and again maybe Im being a whiny baby but I just remember being useful on raids in EQ1 and now I get left out all the time and Im sick and tired.

[rabid.pooh]

<p>Whatever balance there was with harm touch vs devistation fist is now gone. DF works against named, it's on a 3 minute timer and does waaaay more damage then Harm Touch.</p><p> Either crank harm touh up in effectiveness or reduce the casting time to 5 minutes or less (or I don't know how about 3?).  HT is supposed to be a class defining which I guess speaks alot about the class and the devs ability to design and blanace that class.   It remains as my 2nd least used ability.</p>

[Addex]

<p>Truth is developers dont give a crap about SK's or balancing classes. What we need is a developer playing our class, like the Brigs got with Blackguard (Brig, massive dps, massive debuffs, more mit and avoidance than plate tanks) or Aeralik (Assasin, huge CA' dps and autoattack dmg with huge avoidance).</p><p>Why scouts get more mitigation and avoidance than plate tanks is beyond me.....</p><p>Nothing is ever gonna be done for HT cause ppl in pvp servers call it OP, eventhou has been nerfed to [Removed for Content]. HT is OP and the autoattack of a scout hitting me for 3k with 54% mit is not......</p>

[ganng]

<p>I will toss my hat into this thread; HT is a joke.  At best it is a tool to bail you out if you have one too many adds while soloing and need a quick shot of HP.</p><p>Having a Dev play our class will not help the SK has been made a gip tank class that can solo fairly well and that seems to be our "role" in the game.  I guess in raids we should grab a shard, find a nice location outside the aoe range of the mob, FD and wait to rez should the raid wipe... Sounds like fun to me!!  </p>

[Zelle]

A guild monk hit the final boss in CoA a few days ago for a whopping 139k damage with devistation fistwhile I managed a mere 12k with harm touch.DF is also on a 3 min timer compared to our what? 15 mins for HT?Pretty much a joke imo and should be addressed; but as with most things SK, I'd probably have a better chanceof getting to walk on the moon.

[Hugsnkissums]

Ugh, I hate nerf/buff threads...Personally, I could care less what a monk can do. So they hit things hard...that's their job. If they didn't hit things hard they wouldn't be very good at what they do, so why is it surprising they can do something like that? One thing I bet we CAN do that monks can't is tank epics. Wonder how many monks think that's unfair?     

[Wildmage]

the simpliest fix would for HT to be unresistable and maybe some slight damage tweaking, as it does feel like the spell's damage isn't really scaling at a proper rate in the higher tiers.

[Addex]

<cite>Gutan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ugh, I hate nerf/buff threads...Personally, I could care less what a monk can do. So they hit things hard...that's their job. If they didn't hit things hard they wouldn't be very good at what they do, so why is it surprising they can do something like that? One thing I bet we CAN do that monks can't is tank epics. Wonder how many monks think that's unfair?     </blockquote>Who says they cant? A monk is needed for one of the 3 princes, and a monk is usually the one tanking Pawbuster....they can tank epics as good as the SK's, and their raid wide buff makes them more desirable.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<p>Lol. I completely agree that HT is a complete joke if wanna compare against Dev fist. I have lvl 73 bruiser as well and always felt that Dev Fist is a "true" HT for bruisers..</p><p>HT problem is ongoing problem that plagued Sk since day one especially in EQ1. I always kept hearing complaints of HT for EQ1 SKs and saw so many revisions and kept falling behind once again every expansion as level cap increases that never bother to be looked at til SK community screamed so hard then finally improved it somewhat over and over again. </p><p>Basically, SOE will not improve HT unless we scream hard at them non-stop til they improve it. They will forget it once again after extended period of quiet time til we start to feel effect of HT horrible gimped power then we will start to scream at them to fix it.. </p><p>I gave up on that long time ago and accepted the concept of HT as a joke for SK class and focus on other stuff. HT definitely is not a class defining ability thanks to SOE ongoing attitude toward HT.. My faith in HT is long gone..</p>

[Kaldrin]

I use it in a 'oh crud' moment... that's about it. In fact, most of the time I forget that I have it. In my mind it should be on a five minute timer or less. That might make it worth while.

[Kratoswra]

<p>Power up HT plz. In T8 its damage is a joke. In PVP it hits more or less the same as our snare. Prolly if I do a a critical doble attack i do more damage xD</p><p>As someone mentioned AA to improve it:</p><p>Increase reuse and damage</p><p>OR increase heal and lower reuse. etc</p><p>I would not mind to be 30 min or 1hour reuse timer and hit incredibly high. But as all PVP would cry just make it 5 min reuse or give it 3k more damge or so.</p>

[hellskitten]

<cite>Gutan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ugh, I hate nerf/buff threads...Personally, I could care less what a monk can do. So they hit things hard...that's their job. If they didn't hit things hard they wouldn't be very good at what they do, so why is it surprising they can do something like that? One thing I bet we CAN do that monks can't is tank epics. Wonder how many monks think that's unfair?     </blockquote><p>Normally Id agree with you 100%; but keeping faith in the developers design for SKs has gotten old. I love my SK to death, always have and always will.. but since ROK came out I dont even bother to play her anymore. You say dont compare what others can do to what we are capable of; yet what they can do and we cant does infact effect us. I used to brag about our soloing capabilities.. everyone can now.. hell my swashy solos rings around my SK do to her utilites. They dont want us out dpsing others then fine make us one best tanks.. we are NOT. Dont want us being one the best tanks, I prefer that... so then we should be out dpsing the others.. we are NOT. Other night in MC while acting as MT in a grp the zerk out dpsed a ranger, swashy and necro... there is something wrong with that! How can one be the most desired tank and the best DPS in the group?!?! Why dont we go all the way and hand the zerker some the best healing spells so no other classes need in a group? (before you even say it.. the scouts in that grp know what the hell they doing.)</p><p>This is not a scream to nerf zerkers or monks.. not a plea to overpower SKs... its us imploring the devs for some form of balance; cause there is none at this point. We are not just talking about the whining of a few on the forums.. look at the current number of hiend SKs left. They are becomming the few, the proud, the forgotten. This is comming from a formerly devout and [I cannot control my vocabulary] proud SK. One who at launch of ROK had a lvl 70 SK and lvl 52 swashy.. now has a lvl 74 SK (retired) and a lvl 80 swashy. Im not alone.. quite a few of us have migrated.</p><p>PS.. Devs- give me a reason to play my SK again.. PLEASE!</p>

[Splor]

In pertaining to Devastation Fist the 90k's you see on raids is because a brawler is hitting an add or other form of nuisance that is NOT epic. We can and do punch the web bags in thuuga because its a 25% of max life hit, that helps kill it in a hurry. VS epics its worthless. 10% of our power for a 4k-5k hit that stifles us for 10 seconds. Its also being nerfed down to where it will work the same way vs nameds as it does vs epics, meaning it'll be useless for anything that isn't trash.<div></div><div>But beyond that clarification, please, scream on. I'd love to dust off my SK for anything but transferring money around.</div>

[Zelle]

<cite>hellskitten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This is not a scream to nerf zerkers or monks.. not a plea to overpower SKs... its us imploring the devs for some form of balance; cause there is none at this point. We are not just talking about the whining of a few on the forums.. look at the current number of hiend SKs left. They are becomming the few, the proud, the forgotten. This is comming from a formerly devout and [I cannot control my vocabulary] proud SK. One who at launch of ROK had a lvl 70 SK and lvl 52 swashy.. now has a lvl 74 SK (retired) and a lvl 80 swashy. Im not alone.. quite a few of us have migrated.<p>PS.. Devs- give me a reason to play my SK again.. PLEASE!</p></blockquote>  Same with me, I have become so fed up of not being able to tank effectively nor being desired as dps anymore that I have also mothballed my beloved SK for now. Been working on a newly rolled Coercer for the last couple of weeks, mid way through the 50's atm, in a hope that I can actually get a group in maidens or wherever when I spout LFG in channels. Tanking, dps, even soloing ability, I don't really mind which way we end up swinging, but please, for the love of SK's everywhere, give us at least one little niche that we can call our own, somewhere that we can sit back after the job is done and feel satisfied that we have done a good job.

[Seredo]

I usually don't [I cannot control my vocabulary] but [I cannot control my vocabulary] it something needs to be done because even in duels I could have a 3 times more powerful HT and a bruiser would still own my [I cannot control my vocabulary].  Do what they did in EQ1 where HT can only do a certain % of life in duels, I don't care.  We just need an upgrade to it cause as it stands I can barely see the hp on the move when I ht, even on heroics.  I really doubt that "Death Touch" was intended as this [Removed for Content] of a spell......  Oh and that DF I was talking about was on Imzok's revenge....

[Colcos]

I completely agree, It feels more like an SK fun spell than a useful nuke. The most I've gotten it to crit for is 27k but it required popping a blessing a miracle (bertox's 50% spell dmg and 50% disease damage increase) as well as death march..... in order to help burn down the stupid Widow Mistress before her adds spawn. But i shouldn't have to sacrifice treasured items and a couple 1-hour recast-timer abilities in order to make something called "death touch" resemble its name.

[Seolta]

Improve it or change the name to "Mild Inconvenience Touch" :p

[Beldin_]

Change name to "not even a rescue anymore" <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Siatfallen]

<cite>Seredoff wrote:</cite><blockquote>[...]that DF I was talking about was on Imzok's revenge....</blockquote>In which case you have encoutered a bug in the game. Playing a monk, I regularily land dev. fist on Imzok's Revenge, and I have never seen it land for over 9k (crits ftw). Either that, or it was actually on one of the heroics in the zone (false epics, as it were; the hierophants and  seers from the first four nameds, or the froglok mercenaries with the adventuring party).Find the description of Devastation Fist, read it over. It should be plain enough to see that it is not built to do the kind of damage you mention here. If it did anyway, grats on getting a marginally faster kill on Imzok's Revenge.Damagewise otherwise... Sure it's a nice skill. It also costs a great deal of power and stifles the user for ten seconds. While I feel your pain on Harm Touch (or whatever it's called nowadays), your comparison here is not justified at all. The skills are very much different. Perhaps by someone's logic, devastation fist should work about the same as harm touch. In fact it does not, which I should add is much to my regret as a monk. On top of this, with the announced incoming nerf in devastation fist it is hardly useful for much of anything anymore - except for killing trash or heroic adds in epic encounters a second or two faster.By all means, if you would honestly prefer dev fist as it is going to work, go ahead and ask for it. But why do you want to nerf the SK class even more?

[erimus]

<p>I dont think it matters if DF is landing on a epic, a trash mob or whatever.   The fact is, it regularly lands for an insane amount of damage.  Dont come here whining or insinuating that harm touch is close to being on par with DF.  If it was, wed be turning around every 3-5 minutes and waxing an add or some such thing as well.</p><p>That said, no one is asking for a nerf to other classes here, Death Touch should be our class defining ability.  As it stands now its a class joke.  </p>

[Seredo]

<p>All Im asking for is something done with this [Removed for Content] spell cause right now it is a joke.  I used to be able to see the mob's hp move in EQ1 when I HTed and that was on mobs that took 75 people to kill!  Now I sometimes even forget to use it because its pointless, the heal is a complete joke.  When Im tanking stuff that hits for 3-4k how in Gods glorious name is a 1700 hp heal that can be resisted going to help me?  Im not a paladin, don't give me [Removed for Content] LoH and HT rolled into one.  Give me a good HT. nuf said.</p>

[Scyk]

I agree on this matter.It's a new game compared with EQ1 and all the classes got their own advantage when it come to skills/spells. BUT I have to agree aswell that HT should be the most powerful strike in the game. It ain't fun when a Warlock/Wizard outnukes your HT. I feel somewhat empty with the skill being so unessesary. But we have to take the aspect of the whole idéa. We got PVP servers, people would go crazy if being one hitted, which I've been of the Scourge spell twice, dealing over 2.5k dmg. And people would like to have their own "Super strike".My oppinion on a sollution would be: Raise the HT cooldown to maybe 30 min - 1 hour and buff the HT to the extreame. But my speculation is unreasonable to some people. "What you see is what you get".

[Shirodan]

<p>Other classes abilites aside, harm touch is a joke for what it is supposed to be. After debuffing a mob's disease resist, and popping Death March I <i>might</i> decrease an even con solo mob's hp by 1/3 on a good crit at lvl71.</p><p>I've got around 600 INT not counting the bonus from death march and its damage is still laughable. The heal aspect we can get from our AAs is almost unnoticeable, and the recast is absurd for what it is.</p>

[nihilux]

TBH it's not that a nerf needs to be made. It the simple fact that we need a serious upgrade. HT is a joke and it has been a one for sometime, reuse timer & all.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<p>I find it funny when I have Death Touch and what it did was HT tickle the mob..</p><p>I also play lvl 73 bruiser.. I dev fist regular mobs every 3 minutes and almost always 1 shot kill them for 15 to 20k damage on regular basis. THAT is what I really felt like a TRUE definition of DEATH TOUCH!</p><p>Dev Fist = Death Touch</p><p>SK Death Touch = HT Tickle me EMO! </p>

[jagermonsta]

<cite>Seredoff wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if this has been said in this forum before but as EQ1 proved that the only way things get done is with mass complaints.  Harm Touch is comparitively [Removed for Content].  I regularly see Devastation Fist hit for around 50k on raids, hell I even saw a 90k dropped.  Now Im not complaining that Brawlers should have DF nerfed because in honesty they need that spell to be useful on raids, but isn't Harm Touch supposed to be the biggest hit in the game?  I mean hell the name of the T8 version is Death Touch, and I can't even one shot an even con single down arrow.  Maybe Im remembering EQ1 too much but Harm Touch used to actually mean something on raids and SK's were actually useful because as it stands we can't tank nearly as effectively as guardians, zerkers, and paladins.  Our buffs are nothin unless we get the AA buffs and we do [Removed for Content] dps.  So what exactly do we do on raids?  I mean instead of adding a lifetap to Harm Touch with AA couldn't you give us something that increases its damage or add a splurt (a dot whos damage increases with each tick) effect on it or something that is more useful than a 1700 heal cause with 14k on raids 1700 isn't much and ht can be resisted.  Maybe Im being unreasonable but I'd like to think that there are more of us out there that are sick of being left out on raids and would like to see this spell tweaked a bit.  Ok done complaining now, any counter points would be appreciated, and again maybe Im being a whiny baby but I just remember being useful on raids in EQ1 and now I get left out all the time and Im sick and tired.</blockquote>As I agree that HT does need to be enhanced I am however unsure why you're having a hard time in regards to tanking and DPS. Perhaps you need to review you play style & achievements. I guess it can't be just you considering I see a lot of these SK complaint threads but personally I don't have any of the problems you're claiming <i>all</i> SKs have. I don't feel the SK is a gimped class and I prove that each and every group/raid I join. I don't mean to come off conceded or anything I'm just trying to say the SK class isn't <i>that</i> bad when played correctly.

[Mhedic]

Ok while i am not a high lvl SK, I do love my SK.  I personally would like to see the Recast time Cut in Half and for those with Death Touch, lets make it do what the name implies.  What i mean is, lets add a 2% chance to do 50% health or like a 1% chance to Instantly kill a mob (non-epic).  I would like to see something like that added to the ability to make it more used in the hopes it does something great.  Maybe we don't have to give it a bonus to dmg, but the AA bonus needs to be looked at, while i like the Heal amount from HT, it isn't that great in comparison to the amount of damage it does.  Now if it gave us like half of what our HT did, that would be different.  All I am saying is that i would love to see something done to this ability in the form of a percentage to do massive dmg (weither its a percent of the mobs health or an instant kill), i think that would make it so much more than its current state.  I don't think that would be to hard to do either. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Bruener]

<p>Well the fact of the matter is that HT is completely [Removed for Content], and each tier it is getting worse.  HT should be doing at least as much damage as Sniper Shot from a ranger....so around 30k+.  I mean HT is supposed to be a class defining ability and as other SK's have pointed out here it is one of the most useless spells now.  There is a huge misconception that HT is still actually a good ability.  I have guildees always ask me about my HT and can't I do massive amounts of damage with it.  Than I simply explain that I am lucky if it hits around 15k on a raid without any blessings and miracles, and that it is on a 15 min recast.  I always get the same reaction...and that is wow that really sucks.</p><p>SOE beef this spell up.  Make it do at least twice as much damage so that it competes with Fission/Sniper Shot/(and whatever the assassin's one is) for the highest hit on a fight.  Its not like it can be used every fight and the assassin/ranger damage on their long recast abilities are set around the same principle.</p>

[Journee]

<cite>Mhedicin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok while i am not a high lvl SK, I do love my SK.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff3300;">Same here</span></p><p>I personally would like to see the Recast time Cut in Half <span style="color: #ff3300;">(Or more please) </span>and for those with Death Touch, lets make it do what the name implies<span style="color: #ff3300;">(THANK YOU!)</span>.  What i mean is, lets add a 2% chance to do 50% health or like a 1% chance to Instantly kill a mob (non-epic).  I would like to see something like that added to the ability to make it more used in the hopes it does something great.  Maybe we don't have to give it a bonus to dmg, but the AA bonus needs to be looked at <span style="color: #ff3300;">(at the very least)</span>, while i like the Heal amount from HT, it isn't that great in comparison to the amount of damage it does.  Now if it gave us like half of what our HT did, that would be different<span style="color: #ff3300;">(OMG I can't even imagine it actually being useful)</span>.  All I am saying is that i would love to see something done to this ability in the form of a percentage to do massive dmg (weither its a percent of the mobs health or an instant kill<span style="color: #ff3300;">(Just the thought of an instant kill is almost more than I can take... however I would LOVE to try),</span> i think that would make it so much more than its current state.  I don't think that would be to hard to do either.<span style="color: #ff0000;">(You know they will always make it sound terribly difficult)</span> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff6600;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Basically SoE I think this sums it up.  We LOVE our SK's but we need some serious adjustments made to them.  Please don't make them an endangered class.  I fear though as another poster stated until we get a dev who actually plays a SK we will continue to be overlooked. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff6600;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">/sigh</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff6600;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">~Journee~</span></p>

[Phank]

<p>With each tier, Harm Touch has become more and more of a joke.  Our main DD does about a third of the dmg of Harm Touch.  So tell me exactly again, how is Harm Touch a class defining skill?  Lol</p><p>DF is far superior to anything we have.  So much so that SKs are not even needed on most raids.  Sure, we can do our thing.  We can tank, we can support, etc.  But check out the rosters of the WW top guilds.  Most don't roll with a SK because other than a meager STA/DPS buff and touch aggro here and there -- we bring NOTHING to the group.</p><p>SKs in EQ were very cool.  But that cool factor wore off long ago.</p>

[Journee]

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs in EQ were very cool.  But that cool factor wore off long ago.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Thats sad because it's true <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">~Journee~</span></p>

[Xanrn]

<p>Yeah and Brawlers weren't half arsed tanks and there were only 3 Tanks classes.</p><p>So yeah the Devs didn't learn jack shet, but hey whats knew.</p>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<p>You think anyone gives a [I cannot control my vocabulary] about SK's ? </p><p>I've been coming to these forums for 3 years and complaining about how [Removed for Content] our class is, and you know how many dev posts have been in this forum over the 3 years ?  about 3</p><p>Don't waste your breath, SK is a dead class, respec to a Paly for easy mode amends, hell they even out parse us.</p><p>What you've done to the Shadowknights is unforgivable</p><p>HAH our master defensive stance - extra 23 wis and 4 defense, jeeez what am i going to do with all that extra defense, even though we already get smacked around like cloth wearers, have no aggro control, and do mediocre DPS.</p><p>Dont hold your breath for any changes to SK's</p><p>Oh but we have Deathmarch a T6 spell that doesnt do jack, because everyone else has tripled thier DPS since then.</p><p>And how can we forget Innoruuks Caress - Get hit by epics for 150 taunt !  great who thought of that brilliant idea ?</p><p>Oh how about Hate over time, jesus H no comment</p><p>Ahh and finally Death touch - 12k every 15 mins !!!  wow we have warlocks that do 10k every second</p>

[erimus]

<p>The change to Death Touch Id like to see most, would be massively increase the damage amount (by massive Im talking like insta-death to nearly anything not Epic [ and not Herioc instance named encounters]) and bump the reuse up to an hour.  TBH I think that would give us something that would be class defining.    Something that everyone in the group or raid will be able to know when an SK drops Death Touch on a mob.  Something that brings the sexy back to the class.</p>

[Nakash]

<p>HT scales not correct compared to the damage other classes do in T8</p><p>It should be uped to increase it usefullness, it should do more damage to be more usefull as an aggro tool.</p><p>The spell is not what it should be if you really want to call it death touch.</p><p>Maybe up the timer, but increase its damage plz.</p><p>For PvP it should be balanced seperatly to do % damage spread of enemys max health.</p>

[kickmyd0g]

<p>The devs have to be sh1tt1ing us right ??</p><p>I'm sick of being the butt of the guild jokes.  We go to chardok and the Brig tanks just as well as me.</p><p>I've stopped duelling ever since I took on an Inq and DT'd him for 60 points of damage, thats right SIXTY !! I know they have some AA ability or something that absorbs damage but 60 points is taking the p1ss.</p><p>Come on devs give us a bit of luvvin here, we're supposed to be DEATH knights, we're supposed to strike fear into peoples hearts but instead we're the special ones that get an extra scoop of icecream because they feel sorry for us <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[rabid.pooh]

<cite>Pitt Hammerfist wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You think anyone gives a [I cannot control my vocabulary] about SK's ? </p><p>I've been coming to these forums for 3 years and complaining about how [Removed for Content] our class is, and you know how many dev posts have been in this forum over the 3 years ?  about 3</p><p>Don't waste your breath, SK is a dead class, respec to a Paly for easy mode amends, hell they even out parse us.</p><p>What you've done to the Shadowknights is unforgivable</p><p>HAH our master defensive stance - extra 23 wis and 4 defense, jeeez what am i going to do with all that extra defense, even though we already get smacked around like cloth wearers, have no aggro control, and do mediocre DPS.</p><p>Dont hold your breath for any changes to SK's</p><p>Oh but we have Deathmarch a T6 spell that doesnt do jack, because everyone else has tripled thier DPS since then.</p><p>And how can we forget Innoruuks Caress - Get hit by epics for 150 taunt !  great who thought of that brilliant idea ?</p><p>Oh how about Hate over time, jesus H no comment</p><p>Ahh and finally Death touch - 12k every 15 mins !!!  wow we have warlocks that do 10k every second</p></blockquote><p>I pretty much 100% agree with Pitty here.  I've been playing an SK since release went through every expansion and managed to keep pretty upbeat most times.  But really the devs were so far off the mark in this expansion it's sad.  No idea how to design for this character and even how to outfit them.</p><p>SKs that want to be tanks are gimped because of the gear selection, equiping tank gear you will loose int (power) and loose spell damage, you will gain in mele ability but when 100% of your gear is based on 50% of your ability what does that give you.   Seriously roll a warrior.</p><p>Sks that want to DPS are gimped again lack of agro control and really take a spot that can be used better by another class.  Roll a DPS class.</p><p>SKs that want to solo go to it!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote> HT should be doing at least as much damage as Sniper Shot from a ranger....so around 30k+. </blockquote><p>Sorry .. but do you have a ranger ? Sniper is even as much [Removed for Content] as HT. It does normally around the sae damage, but you also have to go into invis first and then it has a 4 or 5 second casting time. As a ranger its mostly not even wort to use it because you can do the same or more with autoattack in that time <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Both need badly an upgrade .. similiar to dev fist .. 3-5 minutes recast and 15-20k damage or whatever at least.</p>

[Lateral]

Definately agree it is outshined by many other skills on far smaller cooldowns at end-game.. my SK isnt that high of a level but I can already see how its not all that useful even as early as the 40's.. only really helps soloing when you get one mob too many and want to kill something with no arrows or 1-arrow-down quickly. I dont see why it shouldn't be upgraded, a SK having a powerful ace up their sleeve every 15 minutes would be no different than a brawler having dev fist, the way it is right now HT has 5x the cooldown as dev fist and does 1/5 the damage.. im not saying nerf dev fist but give Sk's a little love with this spell..

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<p>This thread will go on for another 6 months, before a dev will even glance at it, let alone post in it, let alone change anything.</p><p>And you think improving death touch is going to fix our class? lol</p>

[ReficulFonwaps]

I've been an SK since beta, and been through the bad and the good, wait nm, wasn't ever any good...But yeah, harm touch used to be decent, was powerful enough to be used as an extra rescue also. Now when I use it the mob doesnt even flinch. It's only really a good spell for solo'ing now, and barely at that. Definitely needs a looking at, and a very large boost.

[Koard]

<cite>Pitt</cite><blockquote><p>And how can we forget Innoruuks Caress - Get hit by epics for 150 taunt !  great who thought of that brilliant idea ?</p></blockquote>I'm with ya, sums it all up nicely.They could make the ghetto Caress crap work if they made a simple change or two. The basis is us being hit to generate a pathetic amount of hate. Take a peek at your avoidance...getting hit shouldn't be much of a problem. Sure, we can crank it up a bit at the loss of other vital stats. I believe the disconnect is in mitigation. An easy fix would be to raise our base mitigation to compensate for the fact that we have to take a beating to help augment hate gain. Works for me, just up miti and the ridiculously low hate gain and it would be a decent aggro tool.  <img src="http://www.everquest2.com/images/classIcons/shadowknight_lrg.gif" alt="" border="0" />                   <span class="bodyQuotations">Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them.  In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.Sony's words...not mine. Fitting?</span>

[erimus]

<p>LOL Agreed Pitty,</p><p>What I dont understand though is, how is it that SKs have become the flavor of the month on our server lol.   Every time I turn around Im seeing another lvl 80 SK (my opinion, its the solo ability).     I completely stopped playing mine.   Dont even remember the last time I logged in.    But to be fair, even with all of our faults, I could still never see myself betraying to a pally,  Id bench my toon first LOL</p><p>Edit: and while we are on it heres a thread that seems to confirm some of our suspicions hehe</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=405517" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=405517</a></p>

[hellskitten]

<cite>erimus wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>But to be fair, even with all of our faults, I could still never see myself betraying to a pally,  Id bench my toon first LOL</p></blockquote>And thats what Ive done.

[ganng]

<p>My fello SK's I think I have the answer.  HT/DT/etc... is a class defining skill, we are defined as [Removed for Content] or "The Suck" if you prefer.</p><p>Personally I have 2 more levels to complete to 80 then if grouping/tanking sucks as bad as it does at 78 I am out.  I have a few other 70's but I really do not want to do the same solo questing on a toon I like less then my SK and would rather try my hand in another game.</p><p>Might I note that this is the 1st SK complaint thread that does not contain a "that is because you do not know your class..." comment, makes me think the SK community as a whole is fed up so hopefully change will be coming.  </p>

[ReficulFonwaps]

<cite>erimus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>LOL Agreed Pitty,</p><p>What I dont understand though is, how is it that SKs have become the flavor of the month on our server lol.   Every time I turn around Im seeing another lvl 80 SK (my opinion, its the solo ability).     I completely stopped playing mine.   Dont even remember the last time I logged in.    But to be fair, even with all of our faults, I could still never see myself betraying to a pally,  Id bench my toon first LOL</p><p>Edit: and while we are on it heres a thread that seems to confirm some of our suspicions hehe</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=405517" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=405517</a></p></blockquote>OMG, and isn't this the same guy that put all the leather helaer loot in RoK expecting the clerics to wear it.....

[Beldin_]

<cite>ReficulFonwaps wrote:</cite><blockquote>OMG, and isn't this the same guy that put all the leather helaer loot in RoK expecting the clerics to wear it.....</blockquote>Yeah  .. and if i'm not totally wrong i once read a "Welcome Fireflyte" Thread somewhere, where somebody was so happy about him becaue he knew him from Vanguard .. lol <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Seredo]

<p>I'm not going to let this die till I either get some kind of hope.  Im not going to give up, and the more I look at this issue the more I realize that we got crapped on.  Lets take a look at balance shall we?</p><p><u>Fighter DPS Rankings from most to least</u></p><p>Bruiser(6), Monk(5), Zerker(4), Shadowknight(3), paladin(2), guardian(1).</p><p><u>Fighter Tanking ability from most to least</u></p><p>Guardian(6), zerker(5), paladin(4), shadowknight(3), monk(2), bruiser(1).</p><p><u>Fighter aggro control ability from most to least</u></p><p>Bruiser(6), monk(5), all paladin/zerker/guardian tied (4) , then last but not least shadowknight(1 point)</p><p><u>The numbers (6-1 points per category and placement)</u></p><p>Bruisers 13, Monk 12, Zerker 12, guardian 11, paladin 10, Shadowknight 7</p><p>This on average, I realize that sk's can out dps zerkers in certain situations but lets look at the big picture.  Zekers are better dps because their dps is only affected by 1 stat, str, and shadowknights 2 stats str and int (moreover int but still).  I know this whole arguement of sk's do better damage over time etc etc.... but still even if they were third dps</p><p>Looking at that it seems obvious, shadowknights are really gimped right now.  Im not saying that I want other classes nerfed but comon we are in the bottom 50% in all three main categories give us something.....please.  ok /rant off.</p>

[devil_hunter]

i would say that SOE should raise the dmg amount of harm touch to maybe 15k and also raise the heal amount on it half the dmg it makes, recast could stay for me the same but it should really be made something about the dmg, 1.5k more dmg from T7 to T8 is a joke. i use this spell so seldom, just on some raid mobs or just for fun on mobs when i´m making ct´s.

[hellskitten]

<cite>Seredoff wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>This on average, I realize that sk's can out dps zerkers in certain situations but lets look at the big picture.  Zekers are better dps because their dps is only affected by 1 stat, str, and shadowknights 2 stats str and int (moreover int but still).  </p></blockquote><p>That used to be true but no longer, Im seeing zerkers keeping right up with scouts WHILE tanking. For us to top that we have to be put in the ultimate group.. devoted just to buffing us.. and forget tanking while doing it.</p><p>The shame is that ppl mostly discussing improvements to HT here. Lets face it, we all know thats not even going be close to fixing SKs. IF a dev actually reads this I hope they realize that this thread is just a symptom not the disease that has infected SKs.</p>

[erimus]

<cite>hellskitten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seredoff wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>This on average, I realize that sk's can out dps zerkers in certain situations but lets look at the big picture.  Zekers are better dps because their dps is only affected by 1 stat, str, and shadowknights 2 stats str and int (moreover int but still).  </p></blockquote><p>That used to be true but no longer, Im seeing zerkers keeping right up with scouts WHILE tanking. For us to top that we have to be put in the ultimate group.. devoted just to buffing us.. and forget tanking while doing it.</p><p>The shame is that ppl mostly discussing improvements to HT here. Lets face it, we all know thats not even going be close to fixing SKs. IF a dev actually reads this <b>I hope they realize that this thread is just a symptom not the disease that has infected SKs.</b></p></blockquote>LOL shouldnt we be infecting the disease <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hehe sorry couldnt resist <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Seredo]

This is no longer about DT.  This is about how sk's are sucking major [Removed for Content] in most area's, I mean hell look at that chart I posted, we are in the bottom 50% of every major fighter category, and moreover we don't have any real useful buffs that make us good on raids or groups for that matter.  All we have is a decent power to solo and even that we are barely in the top 50% of all classes.  If a developer sees this please tell me one thing?  What are shadowknights actually supposed to do?

[Bruener]

<cite>hellskitten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seredoff wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>This on average, I realize that sk's can out dps zerkers in certain situations but lets look at the big picture.  Zekers are better dps because their dps is only affected by 1 stat, str, and shadowknights 2 stats str and int (moreover int but still).  </p></blockquote><p>That used to be true but no longer, Im seeing zerkers keeping right up with scouts WHILE tanking. For us to top that we have to be put in the ultimate group.. devoted just to buffing us.. and forget tanking while doing it.</p><p>The shame is that ppl mostly discussing improvements to HT here. Lets face it, we all know thats not even going be close to fixing SKs. IF a dev actually reads this I hope they realize that this thread is just a symptom not the disease that has infected SKs.</p></blockquote>Honestly a huge bone they could throw us is if our epic was 2h and had in a built in block equivalant to buckler.  This would allow us to tank with our 2h, closing the gap that warriors have had for the longest time with their KoS AA's.  I know, I know...supposedly our epics are 1h, however to me that is a huge problem.  We are the only class that doesn't use a 1h to optimize ourselves.  Scouts get 1h and can DW, healers use a 1h + buckler or symbol, mages use 1h + symbol, warriors use 1h +buckler line, or can DW.  Now if they let us DW, or gave us an AA line like the warriors that would be fine and dandy.  However, if we receive a 1h as the game is and it is the optimum weapon for us than warriors will once again out dps by a long shot since they will be using an equivalant 1h + buckler line.  Oh, well they could really even the field by making our 1h completely sick compared to the warriors....lol but can you really see that happening?  Give us the ability to OT with a 2h, either AA set up that gives us additional block when using a 2h or weapons that include the additional block.

[Pitt Hammerfi]

laughs at the pipedreams <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[drew4691]

<cite>Seredoff wrote:</cite><blockquote> What are shadowknights actually supposed to do?</blockquote>sit here and take it up the @ss

[Phantos_Hopeslayer]

I have to agree it has become a bit depressing as a SK.  I can main tank okay, but have a hell of a time trying to hold aggro.  I even pop the gimpy Death Touch, a master rescue (With AA points in it!), and Death March and still have problems with aggro.  And if a mob has a mem-wipe?  Forget about holding that aggro.Shadowknights really do need some sort of buff.  I liked that idea about an AA line that let's us do with 2-handers what gaurdians can do with a 1-hander + buckler.I mean I've been playing a SK since release and will continue to play one as I've become quite attached to my character.  But seriously, it makes me frustrated to see how gimped our class has become.  We really need a revamping, or at least throw us a bone!

[Nicholai24]

The SK Epic solves our aggro. problems. That's all I'm gonna say.

[Pentarum]

<cite>Addex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Truth is developers dont give a crap about SK's or balancing classes. What we need is a developer playing our class, like the Brigs got with Blackguard (Brig, massive dps, massive debuffs, more mit and avoidance than plate tanks) or Aeralik (Assasin, huge CA' dps and autoattack dmg with huge avoidance).</p><p>Why scouts get more mitigation and avoidance than plate tanks is beyond me.....</p><p>Nothing is ever gonna be done for HT cause ppl in pvp servers call it OP, eventhou has been nerfed to [I cannot control my vocabulary]. HT is OP and the autoattack of a scout hitting me for 3k with 54% mit is not......</p></blockquote>Actually in RoK beta 2 of the Devs were playing Sk's <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />

[feanorelfprince]

<cite>Scyk wrote:</cite><blockquote>But we have to take the aspect of the whole idéa. We got PVP servers, people would go crazy if being one hitted, which I've been of the Scourge spell twice, dealing over 2.5k dmg. And people would like to have their own "Super strike".</blockquote><p>or soe could hold to their word and pvp servers would not effect pve servers.</p><p>but i seriously doubt we'll see soe doing that anytime soon</p>

[Colcos]

keepin the thread alive... fix it SOE ... FIX IT!

[Spydr]

<p>/nod</p><p>touch is a waste for somthing that recasts in 15min</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>feanorelfprince wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Scyk wrote:</cite><blockquote>But we have to take the aspect of the whole idéa. We got PVP servers, people would go crazy if being one hitted, which I've been of the Scourge spell twice, dealing over 2.5k dmg. And people would like to have their own "Super strike".</blockquote><p>or soe could hold to their word and pvp servers would not effect pve servers.</p><p>but i seriously doubt we'll see soe doing that anytime soon</p></blockquote>In pvp, this nuke aint much either.and tbh, they can make it hit for 10 000 000 in pve, and still leave it exactly the same in pvp. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The damages are not tied to eachother.

[Zacarus]

From a pvp perspective this thread is a joke.  HT is WAY op in pvp.  Please nerf it.

[Beldin_]

Please shut down all PvP Servers <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Dragon]

From what I understand, pvp damage is based on a percent of the actual damage a spell would do (I think it is 50% less damage against players).  There really is no way to balance a game that has both pvp and pve independently from each other.  That is, unless they took out all the pve side to the PvP servers, and took away all the pvp side to the PvE servers.The only other way to do it independently, is to have two different spells for each damage spell you have (one for PvP and one for PvE).  If the spells didn't update automatically to account for players or NPCs, then you can imagine the huge amounts of spells you need keep track of.The best way to do it (if it is possible) is to decrease that amount of damage caused in pvp on certain spells.  For example, if HT did 30k, with the current ruleset it may do about 15k damage to a player.  But... if you change that up to be 1/6 of the damage, it would do 5k damage from the 30k hit.  All other spells shouldn't work this way... just the ones that are on long timers and do massive amounts of damage.

[Gimet]

Asking for a Harm touch increase is asking for everyoen on PvP servers to bow down to Shadowknights. Most people already get one shotted by it.

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>From a pvp perspective this thread is a joke.  HT is WAY op in pvp.  Please nerf it.</blockquote>Only if they nerf Decapitate, Fusion, and every <i>other</i> attack that hits for way more than HT.

[Darlina]

<cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Asking for a Harm touch increase is asking for everyoen on PvP servers to bow down to Shadowknights. Most people already get one shotted by it.</blockquote><p>What about the Nukes from other Classes? No One-Hits? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p>

[Gimet]

<cite>Darlina@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Asking for a Harm touch increase is asking for everyoen on PvP servers to bow down to Shadowknights. Most people already get one shotted by it.</blockquote><p>What about the Nukes from other Classes? No One-Hits? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p></blockquote><p>No, actually. And you don't see other classes who can't get off a one shot asking for a boost because they're jealous of somebody else's nukes.</p><p>You are Shadowknights, you have Harm Touch. You are not Bruisers (or is it monk) with Devastation fist. I'm sorry, but there is no reason to fix HT.</p><p>ESOECIALLY in PvE. There are challenges in PvE, but none nearly as challenging as fighting another player when you don't have the choice or you're not ready (/duel). Yet I don't see the people in the PvP forums complaining that HT isn't powerful enough...they LOVE how much damage it does and almost rely on it for PvP.</p><p>HT is fine.</p>

[Verlaine]

<cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darlina@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Asking for a Harm touch increase is asking for everyoen on PvP servers to bow down to Shadowknights. Most people already get one shotted by it.</blockquote><p>What about the Nukes from other Classes? No One-Hits? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p></blockquote><p>No, actually. And you don't see other classes who can't get off a one shot asking for a boost because they're jealous of somebody else's nukes.</p><p>You are Shadowknights, you have Harm Touch. You are not Bruisers (or is it monk) with Devastation fist. I'm sorry, but there is no reason to fix HT.</p><p>ESOECIALLY in PvE. There are challenges in PvE, but none nearly as challenging as fighting another player when you don't have the choice or you're not ready (/duel). Yet I don't see the people in the PvP forums complaining that HT isn't powerful enough...they LOVE how much damage it does and almost rely on it for PvP.</p><p>HT is fine.</p></blockquote><p>Try getting some resists.  Every duel I've been in HT is either fully resisted or hits for very little due to opponents resists.</p><p>PS: HT is not fine, it does not scale properly in the higher lvls.</p>

[erimus]

<p>Death Touch is not fine,  its a joke.   I dont want anyone else to be nerfed, but come on throw us a bone LOL.  We dont have any class defining abilities in my opinion, but Death Touch SHOULD be.</p><p>And there are ways to scale it back in PVP.  Theyve done it before.  Besides, Ive heard plenty of PVP SKs talk about how it isnt nearly as effective as it used to be.   Sure, it used to be a sign of a weaker player if you had to resort to using it during PVP, but its simply not the case anymore (Again from what I hear from many PVP Sks) </p><p>And a simple request..... if you dont play a shadowknight as your main, please dont tell us what is and isnt good for our class.  I would expect the same of anyone,  I dont go into ranger forums telling everyone in there all about their abilities... LOL</p>

[Grimfort]

<cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darlina@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote>Asking for a Harm touch increase is asking for everyoen on PvP servers to bow down to Shadowknights. Most people already get one shotted by it.</blockquote><p>What about the Nukes from other Classes? No One-Hits? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p></blockquote><p>No, actually. And you don't see other classes who can't get off a one shot asking for a boost because they're jealous of somebody else's nukes.</p></blockquote><p>You obviously have no idea whatsoever about playing on a pvp server. As an 80 SK full specced dps I have NEVER 1 shotted anyone, where do you get this crap? You can 1 shot a green clothy while in a well buffed group, or a grey solo but never anything anywhere near your level with even semi-decent resists. The average PT at T8 is around 4k a few dips to like 2k and spikes to 5-6k (rare) but still no where near constantly anywhere near useful. In PvP the PT is a 1k heal, thats about as far as its use goes. </p><p>I group with wizards and warlocks who often post about a 9k+ rift in pvp which we all find amusing. I group with an assasin who has a 10 min recast (cant remember its name) which crits in at 23-28k in pve compared to my just about critting 10k PT. with a wonderful 15 min recast. Overpowered my [Removed for Content]. I have seen many a post about changing its use to say a 3-5 min timer and toning down the damage in PvP to say 2-3k avg and leaving it at its current dmg in Pve, but 10k every 3 mins aint exactly wow either but its hellavalot better than what we have now.</p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Grimfort wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You obviously have no idea whatsoever about playing on a pvp server. As an 80 SK full specced dps I have NEVER 1 shotted anyone, where do you get this crap? </p></blockquote><p>What do you expect from a level 43 PvP Ranger who runs areound in Leather and with Handcrafted Jewlery  ?  Oh yeah .. nerf melee damage of Wizards because a wizard has killed me when i run around naked *rofl*</p><p>And we can't even tease him if we say that Sniper Shot should be nerfed <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Gimet]

<cite>Shalla@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grimfort wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You obviously have no idea whatsoever about playing on a pvp server. As an 80 SK full specced dps I have NEVER 1 shotted anyone, where do you get this crap? </p></blockquote><p>What do you expect from a level 43 PvP Ranger who runs areound in Leather and with Handcrafted Jewlery  ?  Oh yeah .. nerf melee damage of Wizards because a wizard has killed me when i run around naked *rofl*</p><p>And we can't even tease him if we say that Sniper Shot should be nerfed <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>Hey Genious, I don't play my Ranger anymore.</p><p>I play Gimet and Inuah...I just use Enlocke's name for the forums because I like it. SO stop assuming things that you have no clue about. I was powerleveling that ranger and I don't even use him anymore except maybe to tialor and harvest.</p><p>And Grimfort, give me a break. The point is NOT to one shot someone. And I HAVE been one shotted...but maybe if you were intellegent enough you would realize I'm nowhere near level 80. Yes...assumptions hurt don't they? I have been oen shotted by Ht multiple times when they critical. And the fact that I'm a Conjuror (one of the squishiest mage classes) does nothign for me.</p><p>Resists? Disease damage? HAH, funny. My buffs or for cold and heat and my armor hardly provides for disease/poison.</p><p>Man, you guys can really be [Removed for Content].</p><p>And don't...don't...DO NOT lecture me about PvP when you all are sitting here on PvE servers talking about duels. If the PvP server wa s abig duel, I would own Wardens all the time with the PvE rule-set...yet we know PvP doesn't work that way.</p><p>And you are all FIGHTERS. Mages are meant to do the damage. You are meant to tank...that's your class defining ability. You guys make it seem like you're crippled without HT or something...I've seen SKs do quite fine without it.</p>

[Grimfort]

<cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And Grimfort, give me a break. The point is NOT to one shot someone. And I HAVE been one shotted...but maybe if you were intellegent enough you would realize I'm nowhere near level 80. Yes...assumptions hurt don't they? I have been oen shotted by Ht multiple times when they critical. And the fact that I'm a Conjuror (one of the squishiest mage classes) does nothign for me.</p><p>Resists? Disease damage? HAH, funny. My buffs or for cold and heat and my armor hardly provides for disease/poison.</p><p>Man, you guys can really be [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p>And don't...don't...DO NOT lecture me about PvP when you all are sitting here on PvE servers talking about duels. If the PvP server wa s abig duel, I would own Wardens all the time with the PvE rule-set...yet we know PvP doesn't work that way.</p><p>And you are all FIGHTERS. Mages are meant to do the damage. You are meant to tank...that's your class defining ability. You guys make it seem like you're crippled without HT or something...I've seen SKs do quite fine without it.</p></blockquote><p>I dont believe I have read anywhere that SKs expect to 1 shot anyone. Its insane to talk about real stats/dmg at anything other than top tier as levels make a huge difference. You can be just one level below but have loads more AA points depending on your playstyle, where as *most* people at 80 have at least the 100 points making it more even ground. You could for example fight an SK who has just turned 24 and chosen the HT as a master II (off top of head btw) which lasts another 14 levels. At that stage anyone 4 levels below is in biiiiig trouble against it hence the reason I have read a few nerf threads about it.</p><p>SKs are not just fighters, they are crusaders, 60% of our dmg is spell based! As I have already stated, its dmg in pvp does not need to increase, I dont think anyone is pushing for that. The 11dps that is gained per hour from this spell in pve doesn't make it half as useful as my assasin buddies 45dps over an hour, that making his biggest hit 4 times as useful as mine yet I have never heard mention of it in forums. Changing HT to a 5 min recast means it cant be used twice in a pvp battle (if it is used a 3k hit is enough along with the 1k heal imo) and keep it at 10k in pve which will put it at 33dps over an hour which is STILL lower than said assasins dmg (its called execute, just found out!)</p><p>PT does not make make us crippled but I cant speak for how others write or what you read into a post, however our class defining spell that we are soooo well known for is not really that great are we not allowed to make noise about this?</p>

[Gimet]

<cite>Grimfort wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And Grimfort, give me a break. The point is NOT to one shot someone. And I HAVE been one shotted...but maybe if you were intellegent enough you would realize I'm nowhere near level 80. Yes...assumptions hurt don't they? I have been oen shotted by Ht multiple times when they critical. And the fact that I'm a Conjuror (one of the squishiest mage classes) does nothign for me.</p><p>Resists? Disease damage? HAH, funny. My buffs or for cold and heat and my armor hardly provides for disease/poison.</p><p>Man, you guys can really be [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p>And don't...don't...DO NOT lecture me about PvP when you all are sitting here on PvE servers talking about duels. If the PvP server wa s abig duel, I would own Wardens all the time with the PvE rule-set...yet we know PvP doesn't work that way.</p><p>And you are all FIGHTERS. Mages are meant to do the damage. You are meant to tank...that's your class defining ability. You guys make it seem like you're crippled without HT or something...I've seen SKs do quite fine without it.</p></blockquote><p>I dont believe I have read anywhere that SKs expect to 1 shot anyone. Its insane to talk about real stats/dmg at anything other than top tier as levels make a huge difference. You can be just one level below but have loads more AA points depending on your playstyle, where as *most* people at 80 have at least the 100 points making it more even ground. You could for example fight an SK who has just turned 24 and chosen the HT as a master II (off top of head btw) which lasts another 14 levels. At that stage anyone 4 levels below is in biiiiig trouble against it hence the reason I have read a few nerf threads about it.</p><p>SKs are not just fighters, they are crusaders, 60% of our dmg is spell based! As I have already stated, its dmg in pvp does not need to increase, I dont think anyone is pushing for that. The 11dps that is gained per hour from this spell in pve doesn't make it half as useful as my assasin buddies 45dps over an hour, that making his biggest hit 4 times as useful as mine yet I have never heard mention of it in forums. Changing HT to a 5 min recast means it cant be used twice in a pvp battle (if it is used a 3k hit is enough along with the 1k heal imo) and keep it at 10k in pve which will put it at 33dps over an hour which is <span style="font-size: large;">STILL lower than said assasins</span> dmg (its called execute, just found out!)</p><p>PT does not make make us crippled but I cant speak for how others write or what you read into a post, however our class defining spell that we are soooo well known for is not really that great are we not allowed to make noise about this?</p></blockquote><p>I only have one thing that's bothering me....Assassins are what now? Oh yeeaah...Scouts. You, whether you like it or not....you're not dead-locked to beign a SK, are a tank. It's common knowledge...</p><p>Mages, VERY SQUISHY...but heaviest hitters.</p><p>Scouts, Not as squishy, nice damage.</p><p>Priests hardly squishy due to heals, not too much damage unless you're a Fury.</p><p>Fighters, Squishy isn't a dfinition to them...and unless you're really a MOnk or Bruiser(who should actually be considered scots due to their armor) you're not going to do too much DPS.</p><p>When DPS goes up, how long you can live goes down. Don't compare yourself to a scout...especially one that isn't the prime pick for tanking in a raid or even a group.</p><p>Now of course...SoE allows classes abilities that generally break this rule...but then we wonder what's wrong with this game.</p>

[Dragon]

<cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote><p>I only have one thing that's bothering me....Assassins are what now? Oh yeeaah...Scouts. You, whether you like it or not....you're not dead-locked to beign a SK, are a tank. It's common knowledge...</p><p>Mages, VERY SQUISHY...but heaviest hitters.</p><p>Scouts, Not as squishy, nice damage.</p><p>Priests hardly squishy due to heals, not too much damage unless you're a Fury.</p><p>Fighters, Squishy isn't a dfinition to them...and unless you're really a MOnk or Bruiser(who should actually be considered scots due to their armor) you're not going to do too much DPS.</p><p>When DPS goes up, how long you can live goes down. Don't compare yourself to a scout...especially one that isn't the prime pick for tanking in a raid or even a group.</p><p>Now of course...SoE allows classes abilities that generally break this rule...but then we wonder what's wrong with this game.</p></blockquote>Sorry, but do you actually know how a tank can tank?  it is due to hate, and hate is generated 4 ways.  One is through casting buffs (smallest amount of hate generated with the exception of a few, like DM).  Another is through actual hate from stuff like taunts and item mods (usually weak in comparison to damage).  Heals also add a ton of hate, and probably the second highest hate generated is through heals (because of group heals and the likes).  And finally, the biggest hate generation comes from Damage.  Damage and hate are on a 1:1 ratio unless you spec to have that lowered, or unless you have buffs to transfer hate.  Then the ratio is different, but a tank will never be able to hold agro from just taunts themselves (even if fully buffed for maximum 50% extra hate generation).  So then, how do you combat someone producing 20-30k hate from one hit, when all your hate comes from measly taunts that barely break 5k hate.  The answer is: DPS... that's the only way.  I'm sorry to inform you, but if tanks don't do enough DPS, they can't hold the hate.

[erimus]

<cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shalla@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grimfort wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You obviously have no idea whatsoever about playing on a pvp server. As an 80 SK full specced dps I have NEVER 1 shotted anyone, where do you get this crap? </p></blockquote><p>What do you expect from a level 43 PvP Ranger who runs areound in Leather and with Handcrafted Jewlery  ?  Oh yeah .. nerf melee damage of Wizards because a wizard has killed me when i run around naked *rofl*</p><p>And we can't even tease him if we say that Sniper Shot should be nerfed <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>Hey Genious, I don't play my Ranger anymore.</p><p>I play Gimet and Inuah...I just use Enlocke's name for the forums because I like it. SO stop assuming things that you have no clue about. I was powerleveling that ranger and I don't even use him anymore except maybe to tialor and harvest.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"> Theres not much to assume here, EQ2 players FTW, and by the way, so what? you play a 42 conjurer also?? The point remains valid</span></p><p>And Grimfort, give me a break. The point is NOT to one shot someone. And I HAVE been one shotted...but maybe if you were intellegent enough you would realize I'm nowhere near level 80. Yes...assumptions hurt don't they? I have been oen shotted by Ht multiple times when they critical. And the fact that I'm a Conjuror (one of the squishiest mage classes) does nothign for me.</p><p>Resists? Disease damage? HAH, funny. My buffs or for cold and heat and my armor hardly provides for disease/poison.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Resist gear macros. get some</span></p><p>Man, you guys can really be [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Its because youve come in here telling us what should and shouldnt happen with our class.....poor form IMO</span></p><p>And don't...don't...DO NOT lecture me about PvP when you all are sitting here on PvE servers talking about duels. If the PvP server wa s abig duel, I would own Wardens all the time with the PvE rule-set...yet we know PvP doesn't work that way.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Im sorry but to me it sounds like your not very good at PvP.  I stopped playing PvP long ago, and not for very long. but long enough to know that someone that has the right resist spec wont get one shotted.</span></p><p>And you are all FIGHTERS. Mages are meant to do the damage. <b>You are meant to tank...that's your class defining ability</b>. You guys make it seem like you're crippled without HT or something...I've seen SKs do quite fine without it.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Unfortunately No, Seems SOE is taking that aspect away from SKs bit by bit.  Tanking is not an SK defining ability.  Its a Guardian Defining ability lol.    This thread was started to make the point that Harm Touch is not that great anymore.  We are not Crippled withough harm touch.  Sks Do well without it, you are correct.   But the fact remains it is one of my Least used abilities.   My opinion remains that it should be our class defining ability.  </span></p></blockquote>

[Gimet]

<cite>Dragonae@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote><p>I only have one thing that's bothering me....Assassins are what now? Oh yeeaah...Scouts. You, whether you like it or not....you're not dead-locked to beign a SK, are a tank. It's common knowledge...</p><p>Mages, VERY SQUISHY...but heaviest hitters.</p><p>Scouts, Not as squishy, nice damage.</p><p>Priests hardly squishy due to heals, not too much damage unless you're a Fury.</p><p>Fighters, Squishy isn't a dfinition to them...and unless you're really a MOnk or Bruiser(who should actually be considered scots due to their armor) you're not going to do too much DPS.</p><p>When DPS goes up, how long you can live goes down. Don't compare yourself to a scout...especially one that isn't the prime pick for tanking in a raid or even a group.</p><p>Now of course...SoE allows classes abilities that generally break this rule...but then we wonder what's wrong with this game.</p></blockquote>Sorry, but do you actually know how a tank can tank?  it is due to hate, and hate is generated 4 ways.  One is through casting buffs (smallest amount of hate generated with the exception of a few, like DM).  Another is through actual hate from stuff like taunts and item mods (usually weak in comparison to damage).  Heals also add a ton of hate, and probably the second highest hate generated is through heals (because of group heals and the likes).  And finally, the biggest hate generation comes from Damage.  Damage and hate are on a 1:1 ratio unless you spec to have that lowered, or unless you have buffs to transfer hate.  Then the ratio is different, but a tank will never be able to hold agro from just taunts themselves (even if fully buffed for maximum 50% extra hate generation).  So then, how do you combat someone producing 20-30k hate from one hit, when all your hate comes from measly taunts that barely break 5k hate.  The answer is: DPS... that's the only way.  I'm sorry to inform you, but if tanks don't do enough DPS, they can't hold the hate.</blockquote><p>Well, I'm glad you broke it down into 4 categories so I can undestand tanking better...but my point still stands...</p><p>SK's do quite well without HT and your DPS is fine as well. The fact that half of you in this thread are complaining about HT and comparing it to a DPS class's big nukes out of jealousy is no valid reason to increase HT./sarcasm And if you happen to disagree, then why in the world do people ask Shadowknights to tank? There's that 15 minute period between HT's where you guys must suck so badly that no one would want you right? /sarcasm off</p>

[Gimet]

<cite>erimus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shalla@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grimfort wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You obviously have no idea whatsoever about playing on a pvp server. As an 80 SK full specced dps I have NEVER 1 shotted anyone, where do you get this crap? </p></blockquote><p>What do you expect from a level 43 PvP Ranger who runs areound in Leather and with Handcrafted Jewlery  ?  Oh yeah .. nerf melee damage of Wizards because a wizard has killed me when i run around naked *rofl*</p><p>And we can't even tease him if we say that Sniper Shot should be nerfed <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>Hey Genious, I don't play my Ranger anymore.</p><p>I play Gimet and Inuah...I just use Enlocke's name for the forums because I like it. SO stop assuming things that you have no clue about. I was powerleveling that ranger and I don't even use him anymore except maybe to tialor and harvest.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"> Theres not much to assume here, EQ2 players FTW, and by the way, so what? you play a 42 conjurer also?? The point remains valid</span><span style="color: #990000;">My point is this was that he can't insult or assume something about me based off of one of my characters who is hardly important or useful in PvP to me.</span></p><p>And Grimfort, give me a break. The point is NOT to one shot someone. And I HAVE been one shotted...but maybe if you were intellegent enough you would realize I'm nowhere near level 80. Yes...assumptions hurt don't they? I have been oen shotted by Ht multiple times when they critical. And the fact that I'm a Conjuror (one of the squishiest mage classes) does nothign for me.</p><p>Resists? Disease damage? HAH, funny. My buffs or for cold and heat and my armor hardly provides for disease/poison.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Resist gear macros. get some</span></p><p>Man, you guys can really be [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Its because youve come in here telling us what should and shouldnt happen with our class.....poor form IMO</span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Welcome to the forums? Have you been to the PvP seciton at all? Classes are tellign other classes what they should and't shouldn't do all of the time. I'm sorry if I see the game form more than one point of view.</span></p><p>And don't...don't...DO NOT lecture me about PvP when you all are sitting here on PvE servers talking about duels. If the PvP server wa s abig duel, I would own Wardens all the time with the PvE rule-set...yet we know PvP doesn't work that way.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Im sorry but to me it sounds like your not very good at PvP.  I stopped playing PvP long ago, and not for very long. but long enough to know that someone that has the right resist spec wont get one shotted.</span><span style="color: #ff0033;">Here we go with the assumptions again. I'm also very sorry if you haven't been informed that resists are BROKEN in PvP anyway...and a mage can easily get most of their health sapped away by HT, on top of these PvP broken resists.</span></p><p>And you are all FIGHTERS. Mages are meant to do the damage. <b>You are meant to tank...that's your class defining ability</b>. You guys make it seem like you're crippled without HT or something...I've seen SKs do quite fine without it.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Unfortunately No, Seems SOE is taking that aspect away from SKs bit by bit.  Tanking is not an SK defining ability.  Its a Guardian Defining ability lol.    This thread was started to make the point that Harm Touch is not that great anymore.  We are not Crippled withough harm touch.  Sks Do well without it, you are correct.   But the fact remains it is one of my Least used abilities.   My opinion remains that it should be our class defining ability.  </span><span style="color: #ff0066;">I'm also very sorry if you feel your "class defining ability" is being sapped away from you...but on PvP it's far from that. First thing someone thinks "CRap, a SK. Better get ready for a HT" I'm also sorry that you don't feel this way on a PvE srever versus mindless macro'd mobs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0066;">Melee, ability, Melee, ability...whooops, out of power, time to melee until I reward this player. It's a whole other world when it comes to PvP. If you want to find use in your HT again, come over to PvP. You'll be amazed at the power you contorl with it. Maybe I've just fallen so out of touch with PvE, but with or without HT isn't the mob going to die to you anyway? And don't end-tier SK's spend most of their time in the easiest solo mobs in Kunark?</span></p><p><span style="color: #990000;">However, I respect the fact that you want it enhanced for it being you class defining ability. Becaus emost othe rpeople are sitting here comparing it out of jealousy and asking for an increase.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>

[erimus]

<p>For me its mostly Nastalgic.   I remember as an SK in EQ live, death touch would Jack a mob up... I remember feeling that way in EQ2 when we get our first version of Death touch.  That was like 3 years ago for me....it just doesnt do much anymore and its dissapointing.</p><p>And Between my accounts I play an 80 SK, Warlock, Inky, and a 75 defiler... lol I think I can see things from more than one point of view <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Now to PVP.   When you get another 40 levels on you and are still on a PVP server, then talk to me about resists dont work and blah blah.   As it stands now, you are the first and only person Ive heard talking about The big bad SKs coming to get you.   I will conceed to you that may be the case at your level, with your gear and playstyle, however I think you will find it less and less true as you progress in levels</p>

[Grimfort]

<p>You picked up on two of my points completly backwards there Enlocke. I said changing HT to my suggestion STILL makes it less than a dps class, I said that to show that we SHOULD be doing less that these classes stop reading between the lines please.</p><p>I also said that I was an 80 SK on a PvP server so please don't say thats its use in PvP is all that as it is not, its a 1k heal and a 3-4k dmg once every 15 mins. If ever I use HT to help kill someone who I usually cant kill, they can just come straight back and kick my [Removed for Content]. Its use in PvP is not great, sure it helps, but as I have already said, most of this discsussion in PvE, read that again I said PvE.  I group with a good zerker and a good guardian who both out-dps me. The zerker does even if I use HT and probly should as that is their job the biggest dmg class tank. Then we have the guardian who can take a better pounding than an SK, can hold agro better than an SK and who matches my dps easily enough when selected as the tank who I do manage to top in dps once every 15 mins.... </p><p>I also have to add that you suggested that with a fighter that squishy isn't a definition to them. If you play on a PvP server and have the experience that you suggest you have, then you would know a swashy can nail a tank in 10 seconds to less.</p>

[Verlaine]

Enlocke, have you even read this entire post?  We are not talking about harm touch, we are talking about the tier 8 version of the spell not scaling poperly.  So go make a harm touch post on the pvp forums if you want to wine about the lower version of the spell.

[Gimet]

<cite>Grimfort wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You picked up on two of my points completly backwards there Enlocke. I said changing HT to my suggestion STILL makes it less than a dps class, I said that to show that we SHOULD be doing less that these classes stop reading between the lines please.</p><p>I also said that I was an 80 SK on a PvP server so please don't say thats its use in PvP is all that as it is not, its a 1k heal and a 3-4k dmg once every 15 mins. If ever I use HT to help kill someone who I usually cant kill, they can just come straight back and kick my [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Its use in PvP is not great, sure it helps, but as I have already said, most of this discsussion in PvE, read that again I said PvE.  I group with a good zerker and a good guardian who both out-dps me. The zerker does even if I use HT and probly should as that is their job the biggest dmg class tank. Then we have the guardian who can take a better pounding than an SK, can hold agro better than an SK and who matches my dps easily enough when selected as the tank who I do manage to top in dps once every 15 mins.... </p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">I also have to add that you suggested that with a fighter that squishy isn't a definition to them. If you play on a PvP server and have the experience that you suggest you have, then you would know a swashy can nail a tank in 10 seconds to less.</span></p></blockquote>We all know that Scouts are OP, with maybe the exclusion of bards. How do you think I feel when my tank pet does not...well, tank? EVERYONE is at the mercy of Scouts ATM.Stop doubting my knowledge of PvP.

[Grimfort]

<p>Exactly my point, your pet cant tank in pvp vs a scout, nor can my SK! Everyone has always been at the mercy of scouts. Maybe you should request a change to your class, just as we have the right to do so on ours.</p>

[erimus]

<cite>Enlocke@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grimfort wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You picked up on two of my points completly backwards there Enlocke. I said changing HT to my suggestion STILL makes it less than a dps class, I said that to show that we SHOULD be doing less that these classes stop reading between the lines please.</p><p>I also said that I was an 80 SK on a PvP server so please don't say thats its use in PvP is all that as it is not, its a 1k heal and a 3-4k dmg once every 15 mins. If ever I use HT to help kill someone who I usually cant kill, they can just come straight back and kick my [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Its use in PvP is not great, sure it helps, but as I have already said, most of this discsussion in PvE, read that again I said PvE.  I group with a good zerker and a good guardian who both out-dps me. The zerker does even if I use HT and probly should as that is their job the biggest dmg class tank. Then we have the guardian who can take a better pounding than an SK, can hold agro better than an SK and who matches my dps easily enough when selected as the tank who I do manage to top in dps once every 15 mins.... </p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">I also have to add that you suggested that with a fighter that squishy isn't a definition to them. If you play on a PvP server and have the experience that you suggest you have, then you would know a swashy can nail a tank in 10 seconds to less.</span></p></blockquote>We all know that Scouts are OP, with maybe the exclusion of bards. How do you think I feel when my tank pet does not...well, tank? EVERYONE is at the mercy of Scouts ATM.Stop doubting my knowledge of PvP.</blockquote><p>Its not so much your knowledge I doubt, as your experience.    But please since youve played an SK from launch untill now, and levelled him up to 80, and have been around and capped at the release of every expansion,  please enlighten us.    </p><p>Bottom line and Im done here.   In PVE Death Touch Sucks.  In PVP Every 80 SK Ive talked to says that Death Touch sucks as well.   Personally I give a [Removed for Content] about PvP.   It was fun untill all the Leet speaking 12 year olds from WoW or whatever came over.   </p><p>Enlocke, you will NEVER convince me that Death Touch is find as it is.  Why?  Because your NOT A SHADOWKNIGHT!!   You havnt had the experience of being capped at every expansion, gearing and levelling your way up for 3 years, to finally see what should be a great ability fizzle out.   Youve got a couple of Mid Level characters on a PvP server and Im supposed to take everything you say as gospel now?</p><p>Sorry man, I dont mean to bash you, but it is what it is.  Im done here now.  This is turning into the thread that will never end</p>

[Mercuratrayin]

Ya when our raid monk uses Devestating Fist for 92K on a mob .. more than once.. and as an SK my best fast DPS item gets resisted and when it doesnt but only hits for 8k I feel cheated somehow. The 15 minute timer is very annoying as well. It needs to be alot less, especially if its ment to be used as an emergency heal any more.

[Margen]

<p>Really can't even say its a good emergency heal.  All the SK I know (sure someone will say different), put 3 points into it so they can open up Tap artiers.  The heal is like 1100 I think, the mobs before they are debuffed in maidens and Chellsis can hit for over 3k, healing a thrid of hit doesn't really excite me.</p><p>The spell needs a major upgrade, even after the mobs are debuffed I've had it hit for as little as 6k (adept III), on a 15 min timer and with the HPs mobs have now .... Sad!!</p>

[Pratell]

And Enlocke, seriously... you're a mage. And not only that, but a conjuror. Summoners are so weak in pvp that I have never lost a fight to one, even with the changes, on any of my characters. Including a dirge! So instead of whining about another class that only beats you because yours sucks more, why not start spending your time focusing on ways to improve your own class and playstyle? This thread isn't about you and your crusade, it's about HT sucking in PVE.

[Seredo]

<p>This isn't about wanting to be overpowered, or wanting to be top of the totem poll in tank dps or durability (cause we all vividly know that pure tank classes will almost always beat us in both)  This boils down to one ability really sucking, and it wouldn't sting so much if it wasn't one of our most prized abilities.  The HT line has always been a bit hindered each expansion, and I think developers take a wait and see attitude to make sure they don't over power it, but right now the most Ive seen it crit for is 15k and I was in the mage group on raid.  For a 15 min recast timer thats pretty pathetic, all we want is a reduced timer or a good increase in damage, we'll worry about the rest of the suckness later, but for now that would go a long way to help.</p><p> Oh and Enlocke, go back to the conjurer forums where you belong.  Your perspective is skewed since conjurers are one of the only classes that actually suck worse than sks right now.  Not being rude but when you are at the very bottom almost everything above you looks good.</p>

[Kratoswra]

<p>Ressurecting this.</p><p>Fix it plz!</p><p>Make it 1 hour recast i dont care, but we want it to hit hard.</p>

[dlove1]

<p>personally, I think HT in t8 should be about 12-15K every 3 or 4 minutes. that would actually make it useful in a raid. if they did that AND changed our Def stance +wis to + agi, we would be a lot better off. the real problem is that NONE of our abilities scale to T8. when I hit 71 and looked up my new spells, they weren't any better than my old ones. the T8 spells at adept 3 were on average about 5% higher than my T7 masters. if a level 58 spell hit for 700-900, the T8 version would be 730-970 or something really lame like that. </p><p>to give some of you (non-SK or low tiered SK) an example:</p><p>Pariah's Strike</p><p>level 71</p><p>inflicts 159-266 and 39 every 3 seconds for 9 seconds for a max of: (get ready)  383 points of damage!!!  yea baby!! I can almost one shot the double down mobs in the commonlands with my level 71 adept 3!!!   my freakin auto-attack does more damage that that spell. the only class more out of balance than the SK for PVE end game is troubs. at least they have raid utility. </p><p>My SK was my first toon. I started about 2 months after launch. I was lvl 46 when the DoF LU13 super nerf hit. I was capped at every expansion after that. I quit playing my beloved SK when I looked at T8 spells. Now, I am a crafter/ transmuter.  My SK wears robes and never leaves freeport. I was fully mastered and raiding in T7. t8 suxors. </p><p>I have leveled a wizard to 70 and yes I can one-shot some even con mobs. I can do it once every 40 seconds or so. </p><p>go roll a SK ALL the way up. then, come back and tell me how much fun they were at level 40. </p><p>Devol</p><p>tailor/transmuter</p><p>retired SK</p>

[Twsly76]

<p>Just supporting the cause. I don't believe HT, now called DT, should be a 50k hit or the timer reduced, however, it is called Death touch NOT I am going to Pinch you touch. Maybe a line at the bottem of the spell  that says "if target is under 10% health has a 5 percent to killed target will not effect some epics". With an AA line to Increase that to maybe 18 percent or something. Also an increase in the base Damage by 2k would be nice. Probabley would make it crit hit for around 20k. </p>

[pawnipt]

I haven't bothered reading the complete 7 pages of posts on this subject, but i figured id add my 2 cents.I find DT to be useful as a second rescue pretty much, it is instant cast and a range up to 30 meters, it also cannot be resisted unless you're pvping, and it does not cost any power.I feel its recast is slightly to long, i think 10 minutes would be good IMO, and to do that maybe make it cost some power.If it were reduced to 10 minutes then a SK with 3 of the set pieces from VP and if str specced would reduce it down to 5 minute recastThis is just a idea idk how practical it is in the eyes of the devs but i do really feel DT needs to be slightly tweaked.

[jagermonsta]

Yeah, I pretty much use my DT to taunt, not for dps.

[Beldin_]

<cite>pawnipt wrote:</cite><blockquote>I feel its recast is slightly to long, i think 10 minutes would be good IMO, and to do that maybe make it cost some power.If it were reduced to 10 minutes then a SK with 3 of the set pieces from VP and if str specced would reduce it down to 5 minute recast</blockquote><p><sarcasm> Or set the recast to 60 minutes, but give the VP Set a bonus to lower the recast by 55 minutes, because god beware, else players who don't raid VP may get some bonusses</sarcasm></p><p>Sorry .. couldn't stand that. I also only use it as extra taunt, and i think recast must be down to 3-5 minutes, or 10 minutes and at least 20k damage.</p>

[Mercuratrayin]

Reduce the timer! This is my emergency heal FFS! I dont care about the damage increase (but it would be freaking nice) but the timer is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too long for the trivial amount of damage it does. I hit harder with melee crits, and those arent resisted!

[Nakash]

<p>First: This Spell should be handled total different in PVE and PVP</p><p>I am talking about the PVE only. </p><p>This Spell becomes more and more a joke with Tiers going up.</p><p>The damage amount off all DD classes has going up dramatical over the Tiers</p><p>The way HT Line scales does not fit to it. Not in Group and neither in Raid.</p><p>Looking on Raid: </p><p>All HT Line was during T7 is an extra Taunt and even for this it was just useable situational.</p><p>Its was hard to use it for aggro if the Ranger next to you hits for 14k Autoattack.</p><p>In T8 it is even worse. you can use it only to set it on top of an other Skill like DM or Rescue to make a use of it.</p><p>For Damage it means NOTHING. </p><p>Calling the spell Death Touch is a bad joke.</p><p>In my Eyes the should up the Timer and make it hit like a Truck </p><p>(either % based or at least ups the base damage to hit for at least 15k and under best conditions for about 50K.) </p><p>And hands off for not working it on epic mobs !</p><p>This was the orginal meaning of the spell.</p>

[Shiverr]

<p>/Signed and agreed.</p><p>This ability does not deserve the name "Death Touch."  I'd agree that something more along the lines of "Annoying Touch" would be fitting in its curent state.</p><p>Please make it hit harder, not stooopid hard like dev. fist, but worthy of its name and inception.  If not that, at the very least make the reuse much faster.</p>

[Seredo]

/bump Im not gonna let this die till something is done

[Phank]

<p>Death Touch is currently used by most T8 SKs as a taunt as others have said.</p><p>The fact that we rarely make a raid parse should tell you where our dps is.  See: Toilet</p><p>Even though armor set bonus grants lowering of HT timer, it's still way below a class defining level of dmg.  DF got nerfed and they still burst out 35-40k.  What does our HT hit for 15k at max every 13 mins?</p><p>I don't even know why there is a petition for this because 1. devs don't care about our class and 2. devs will not bend to the whim of 100 people lol.</p><p>SK don't even read these forums for the most part any more due to the fact that we have been left behind as the other crusader meat.</p>

[Gungirspear]

<p>    I usually avoid posting/reading on these forums because I typically find players' incessant whining and complaining about their classes annoying and unproductive, but I would like to post in response to this thread.    I agree Death Touch should be buffed. I also agree that not other classes should be nerfed. I agree that Death Touch should be "one of" if not "the" class defining ability for us.    Imho, I think the damage should be buffed. Either one of two ways: a.)Increase the base damage of DT as it stands now to make it a large and significant nuke or b.)Keep the base damage of DT the same as it is now and add a massive but short lived DoT effect.    I also think they should drop the lifetap effect...At least as the timer stands on the ability now. It's pretty useless. I would much rather see a huge taunt effect on it (implented with AA's like the lifetap effect is now). Would be much more useful imo.    If they were to implement either or both of the two changes above, I still think the timer should be reduced. Even to 10 minutes with the above effects I could live with. 15 is a bit goofy, especailly for the ability as it functions now.    One last thing I'dd like to add. Will people please stop saying, "They can't do that because of the PvP servers" or "That would be OP in duels". This is something that has really started to [Removed for Content] me off, especailly since WoW's release. PVE SHOULD NOT BE BALANCED AGAINST PVP. The concept is absolutely ridiculous. They are two completely different, seperate and mechanically-opposite spectrums of the game. It is not our responsibility to deal with [I cannot control my vocabulary] game implentations (or lack thereof) due to it possibly throwing off the PvP "balance". It is the developer's responsibilities to balance each aspect seperately.    Honestly. How hard is it to encode "Ability X will do this much damage vs NPC's, mobs, etc. but will only do Y% of damage against other players". That's all it really boils down to, at least in most cases.    Didn't mean to rant on that topic, I apologize, but so sick of people making excuses why PvE abilities can't be adjusted to their proper level due to it throwing off PvP aspects of the game. That's no excuse. Get off your collective fat and lazy [Removed for Content], Devs./end [I cannot control my vocabulary] session.Cheers all.</p>

[Aull]

<p>I personally like the thought of it being a significant amount of damage on the same timer but able to be of use on epics as well, but Sk's do not need anymore dots (IMHO). The brawlers devistation fist just blows when using on epic mobs so I would hate to see the Sk's DH being made in a similar fashion like the brawlers DF.</p><p>I have preached it more and more each time I log into these forums that class defining abilities are being 1) lost/usless, or 2) are given to other classes that shouldn't be getting them. Example: Monks should be the only class to have tsunami and another class shouldn't get an ability that is like tsunami wether it is via aa or equipment. Hehe sorry but I just don't like other classes trying to get awesome abilities that another class rightfully was given as class defining. This was just an example I am not sure of other toons having tsunami at this time.</p><p>Sk's should in my opinion should have a jaw dropping death touch when it is used on the pve game play. I think it should stay on the same timer because if the timer is lessened I am afraid that would make it not usable on epic mobs similar to devistation fist. If the timer was lessened but the damage stays like it currently is I would see no problem with it being on a 3 min timer.</p><p>Some classes are expected to be offensive and other more defensive. What I am seeing is offensive classes are yelling for defensive abilities and vise versa. I personally see the offensive fighters as berserker, shadowknight, and bruiser and more defensively based would be guardian, paladin, and monk...Please correct me if I am wrong with my opinion on that but that is just my general assumption from what I see in abilities and from reading the forums.</p><p>So I again feel that by what I have witnessed and read in the forums these past two and half years that sk's are offensive fighters and HT or now DT is a class defining ability that should be part of a consistant offensive aresnal. I am wrong????</p><p>Be back later hopefully.</p><p>Thanks</p>

[Kreth]

<p>I'm in agreement here. I would love to see the ability, which I remember as the defining ability of the Shadowknight from EQ1, become what it used to be to us. I am not a big raider, and I can't really comment on exactly how it should work, or how hard it should hit, but I can tell you the effect I want it to have. I would like people in a PVE situation to say "Ok, resident Shadowknight, let fly the DT and finish him off!" and I'd like people in PVP to say "Be careful when you're fighting an SK. That DT is murder!"</p><p>Doesn't have to be the best ability in the game bar none, but I would like it to define our class once again. Even now, my SK is my favorite character. Absolutely love him. I feel like most of the server though, looks at SKs as a cute diversion from the real game. I want them to look at us with a little more fear and respect again. Thanks for listening!</p><p> Oh, and while we're on about SKs, can we have red/orange flames for Hand of Lucan, rather than bright pink ones? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"  Thanks again!</p><p> Much Appreciated!</p><p>-Kreth</p>

[Aull]

<p>Just on a side note. Everyday norrath game play is totally different from a raid stand point and I never knew what all the huffing and puffing about why sk's or any other class were really talking about till I started raiding. Nothing like reading the boards when I wasn't raiding and seeing people say "plz mr. dev look into this class it is broken" while I am thinking to myself "why" I seem to be doing a great job. Then I started raiding.</p><p>I say this for all the non sk players that always say "well you guys can solo so good you don't need any attention". I will say yes we can solo most everyday norrath with little difficulty, but once the raids start it is like toons (other than sk's too) that are nice play toons outside of raids just get gimped once they are in the raid environment.</p><p>Was I huge wake UP call for me.</p><p>Thanks</p>

[kickmyd0g]

<p>I agree that DT needs to do what it says on the tin.  It needs to kill stuff.</p><p>Below is the highest DT hit I've ever made, it was on a Kor-sha raid last week I had a dirge, Inq, zerker, conj and monk in grp, as you can see mostly melee spec'd</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000;">a ruinic guardian: (00:39) 1757542 | 45065.18 [Kirgen-Death Touch-16205] Kirgen 139104 | 3566.77 </span></b></p><p>It looks like a decent enough hit and I topped the parse on that trash mob (Evereyone else was slacking) but in an hour raid I did it once the next highest parse I managed was 3320.</p><p>This is what SK's should be doing every encounter or at least every other so either:</p><p>(a) Leave the damage on DT as it is but reduce the reuse to 3 mins</p><p>(b) Leave the reuse as it is but up the damage a decent amount.</p><p>Oh and while I'm at it can you make Death March raid wide ? then we'll see how many SK's get on raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[erimus]

<cite>Kirgen@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Oh and while I'm at it can you make Death March raid wide ? then we'll see how many SK's get on raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p></blockquote>Brilliant!!

[ironheartthefirst]

<cite>Kirgen@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that DT needs to do what it says on the tin.  It needs to kill stuff.</p><p>Below is the highest DT hit I've ever made, it was on a Kor-sha raid last week I had a dirge, Inq, zerker, conj and monk in grp, as you can see mostly melee spec'd</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000;">a ruinic guardian: (00:39) 1757542 | 45065.18 [Kirgen-Death Touch-16205] Kirgen 139104 | 3566.77 </span></b></p><p>It looks like a decent enough hit and I topped the parse on that trash mob (Evereyone else was slacking) but in an hour raid I did it once the next highest parse I managed was 3320.</p><p>This is what SK's should be doing every encounter or at least every other so either:</p><p>(a) Leave the damage on DT as it is but reduce the reuse to 3 mins</p><p>(b) Leave the reuse as it is but up the damage a decent amount.</p><p>Oh and while I'm at it can you make Death March raid wide ? then we'll see how many SK's get on raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Brilliant ideas!however of you a and b i think they will (if they do chose any which they should) chose a, because on a 15 min reuse the damage for it would be immense

[Lord Hackenslash]

for my 2cp. i almost never use DT its a taunt at best for extra snap aggro when rescue and DM are down. it is pretty much useless as dps so I don't bother. this was a class defining feature in eqlive. now its only a minor intimidation button in duels and pvp if the person we are dueling remembers the old days. if it was made to do such low dmg because of PVP concerns keep it as is  with a lower recast and add an immunity timer to the target for 15 mins or whatever but please up its damage in PVE, give me a reason to push that button please.

[seamus]

<cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>for my 2cp. i almost never use DT its a taunt at best for extra snap aggro when rescue and DM are down. it is pretty much useless as dps so I don't bother. this was a class defining feature in eqlive. now its only a minor intimidation button in duels and pvp if the person we are dueling remembers the old days. if it was made to do such low dmg because of PVP concerns keep it as is  with a lower recast and add an immunity timer to the target for 15 mins or whatever but please up its damage in PVE, give me a reason to push that button please.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure its not gimpy because of PVP. If I remember correctly, its max damage is now capped in PVP, so they already treat it differently between the two environments.

[seamus]

<cite>Kirgen@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and while I'm at it can you make Death March raid wide ? then we'll see how many SK's get on raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>I think many sks would take this change over anything done to HT/DT <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Heck, put it on the Mythical epic as an effect.</p>

[Dendrobates]

I'm still new to this game, but as I was skimming over this thread trying to decide on a main. I noticed someone mentioned that HT/DT has a 30 meter range?!?!? I'm sorry but with a name like death TOUCH I assumed you would have to be in melee range and actually touch the person...Maybe if they sacrificed the range they could up the damage or lower reuse timer.

[Lord Hackenslash]

<cite>seamus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>for my 2cp. i almost never use DT its a taunt at best for extra snap aggro when rescue and DM are down. it is pretty much useless as dps so I don't bother. this was a class defining feature in eqlive. now its only a minor intimidation button in duels and pvp if the person we are dueling remembers the old days. if it was made to do such low dmg because of PVP concerns keep it as is  with a lower recast and add an immunity timer to the target for 15 mins or whatever but please up its damage in PVE, give me a reason to push that button please.</blockquote>I'm pretty sure its not gimpy because of PVP. If I remember correctly, its max damage is now capped in PVP, so they already treat it differently between the two environments.</blockquote>I was just playing devils advocate, notice i said "<b><u>if</u></b> it was made to do such low dmg because of PVP"

[zaun2]

Even at low levels, it doesn't even come close to what HT was used for in EQ1.  In EQ1, a well placed HT, especially once you had the AA and fired off a discipline, could turn the tide of a battle, especially when the mob is in that 1-10% zone and riposting all attacks against it.<div></div><div>In EQ2, its just a so-so insta cast damage spell once every 15 min, perhaps tossing a little tad of health back if one has the AA placed in it.</div><div></div><div>My thought would be to balance it similar to lifeburn for necros, adding a damage cap in PvP of 50-60% of the player's health.  In PvE, it has such a long recast timer that the lifeburn/mana burn immunity debuff isn't really needed to maintain balance.</div><div></div><div>Another way to balance it would to have it return all the damage it did as life to the SK, and the existing talent enhance how much is returned, say 5-10% notches for each point put into it.  Then, it would have utility similar to FD as a last ditch spell to keep the SK alive.</div><div></div><div>HT is pretty much the class defining spell of a SK.  I also wish it had more damage done.  This sole spell is what gave people pause in EQ1 in duels or PvP, and in EQ2, it just seems watered down.  Maybe I'm wrong for comparing EQ2's version to EQ1, but for me it makes sense, if it was made back into one of the SK's signature attacks.</div>

[Beldin_]

<cite>zaun2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>HT is pretty much the class defining spell of a SK. </div></blockquote>It has never been a class defining spell for me. My class defining spell for a long time was Tap Veins followed by Pestilence and all our other blue AoEs. Sadly these spells all have been indirectly nerfed with the content in RoK. However i would happily delete HT from my hotbar if they give me back massice AoE encounters <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[erimus]

<cite>Shalla@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>zaun2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>HT is pretty much the class defining spell of a SK. </div></blockquote>It has never been a class defining spell for me. My class defining spell for a long time was Tap Veins followed by Pestilence and all our other blue AoEs. Sadly these spells all have been indirectly nerfed with the content in RoK. However i would happily delete HT from my hotbar if they give me back massice AoE encounters <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>As much as I hate it, I think Id have to agree with you on this point.   It seems in EQ2 lifetaps are the class defining skill.   The harm touch line seems to just be an after thought.   Sort of a "heres something will throw in as a nostalgic reference to the EQ live Sks.. lol

[Seredo]

Upgrade DT! It's called death touch, not annoying touch. Also while your at it make us useful on raids, Im sick of sitting out. Every class should have a place on raids, so here are some idea's. 1) An ability that allows us to link with another fighter and transfer 10% of our max hp every 6 seconds, which would also make our lifetaps more useful on raids as well. 2) Make Death March Raid wide 3) Give us a massive DT that scales up for Epics so it can actually make a difference and bump its recast up to 1hour. 4) A debuff that gets stronger the longer the fight lasts There now I have given you some friggen examples, now just DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM!!! Cause Im not gonna let this die till I get some kind of change cause right now this ability and our class versatility aside from tanking sucks [Removed for Content].