Request for a Deity Quest Line: Agnostic

[Redbed]

<p>I define agnostic as denying the Gods Authority (Dont confuse it with Atheism).  Its a matter of observation that the gods exist in Norrath but not everyone would be willing to submit to worshipping any of them.</p><p>It seems the gods went away, big calamities happened.  Now that things are settling out, mess is being cleaned up, the Gods think they can return and profit from the new situation.  Im sure Im not the only one who feels disdain for this situation.</p><p>What I suggest is a questline for that minority.  Something along the line of sabotaging the Gods worshipper sites.  Attempting to limit or even prevent the gods empowerement.  Maybee killing off avatars (temporarily of course).</p><p>Im not looking for any magic cape out of this.  Maybee some trophy's for the house, Burnt damaged Icons of the various Faiths.  Instant max negative faction would be the reward with every deiaty.  </p><p>Something to think about and discuss.</p>

[LordPazuzu]

Agnostic was a valid religion choice in the original EverQuest.  They'd have to come up with some sort of other benefit for being agnostic as they certainly could not justify a blessing and miracle system for someone who does not follow a god.

[TaleraRis]

You didn't have to be anti-god to be agnostic either, though. Sometimes it was a valid choice for the finger wigglers who valued magic above all else.

[Wyrmypops]

<p>Any one that doesn't choose a patron deity and do their deity quests could be considered an agnostic. </p><p>Though I wouldn't mind an option to revere the pantheon as a whole. That tends to be the way of things with pantheons. It's academic though, I'd still choose a patron deity for the flavour and bonuses. </p>

[liveja]

<p>Agnostic, defined: "A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; <i>broadly</i> <b>:</b> one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god."</p><p>It has nothing at all to do with whether or not you accept the authority of gods, because you have to first make a claim about their existence before you can make any claims about their authority. Obviously, if you're going to argue whether or not they have authority, you're committing yourself to believing they exist, at which point you are no longer agnostic.</p><p><a href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/agnostic" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Citation</a></p><p>Those who don't wish to worship these gods, as the OP puts it, would simply not make the choice to do so. But I see no reason in the world why they should get the benefits of deities, the existence of which they refuse to acknowledge.</p>

[Bledso]

Good Grief.................   period!

[ginfe]

<cite>Bledso wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good Grief.................   period!</blockquote><p>Aye -it's more of the SOS going on in the "real" world, now these folks want to spread it to a game?</p><p>LMFAO</p>

[Gladiia]

<cite>ginfest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bledso wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good Grief.................   period!</blockquote><p>Aye -it's more of the SOS going on in the "real" world, now these folks want to spread it to a game?</p><p>LMFAO</p></blockquote><p> :p</p><p>Still it might be neat to add a "neautral-not-really-a-deity-because-I-don't-like-them" deityish set of quests...or something.  </p>

[KBern]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Agnostic, defined: "A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; <i>broadly</i> <b>:</b> one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god."</p><p>It has nothing at all to do with whether or not you accept the authority of gods, because you have to first make a claim about their existence before you can make any claims about their authority. Obviously, if you're going to argue whether or not they have authority, you're committing yourself to believing they exist, at which point you are no longer agnostic.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/agnostic" target="_blank">Citation</a></p><p>Those who don't wish to worship these gods, as the OP puts it, would simply not make the choice to do so. But I see no reason in the world why they should get the benefits of deities, the existence of which they refuse to acknowledge.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly....this saved me having to explain what being agnostic really is, it has nothing to do with denying or accepting gods authority.  As soon as you take either of those actions you are not agnostic since you are taking a definitive stance on the existence of gods.</p><p>A true agnostic, which everyone in this world honestly is, (no, I am not going to debate my opinion on that with anyone for pages on end), simply means you do not know if there is/are a god/gods or not.</p>

[azekah]

<cite>Wyrmypops wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Any one that doesn't choose a patron deity and do their deity quests could be considered an agnostic. </p></blockquote>Or lazy...like me : D

[Callexis]

<cite>Redbed wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its a matter of observation that the gods exist in Norrath but not everyone would be willing to submit to worshipping any of them.</p></blockquote>Sorry, it's not "a matter of observation." It's a matter of interpretation of those observations.<div></div><div>Callexis is a hardcore (in-game) Atheist. She thinks the gods are inventions of weak-minded humans who want to spread strife and discord amongst the various races. There is no evidence that the gods really exist. You can't walk up to them and talk to them. Even if you could, you couldn't prove they were gods. After all, why would omnipotent beings (or nearly omnipotent) give a darn about mortals? It's a ludicrous concept.</div><div></div><div>Callie</div>

[Cusashorn]

<p>Lets just say for the sake of argument that they do add in the Agnostic line.</p><p>What would players gain from it? The purpose of the blessings and miracles is that your god gives them to you. What higher power (or lower power) is going to give an Agnostic special abilities and buffs? The City you live in? I don't think so. This isn't the Gates of Discord Tribute system. (well, actually it's almost exactly the same, but the point is your home city isn't going to give you some special buffs outside of the rewards they offer to sell you now anyway.)</p><p>If you don't wanna worship a god, thats your choice. It's your choice to NOT recieve any benefits from doing so.</p><p>The blessings and miracles the gods give in this game arn't so game-breaking that everyone has to use them just to survive. The last time I activated a miracle was months ago. Kunark is introducing Cloaks that are better than some of the Diety cloaks. Players who worship dieties don't have any significant advantages over players who dont.</p>

[Redbed]

<p>I never asked for any buffs, I never asked for a cloak. I never asked for an alter.   I specifically mentioned some trophys along the line of broken and ruined god symbols.  They would be eyecandy on your wall of your house.  I mentioned you would get max NEGATIVE Faction from all gods you hit.</p><p>Defination of Agnostic in Real world terms and game terms are different.  I am trying to operate within the mythology of the game.  </p><p>EQlive.  Silent Fist Monks (Qeynos) were agnostic.  Heres the part that kills me. The Description of monks...all monks at that time was along the lines of "powerful hand to hand fighters who are blessed by the gods with magical punches" thats NOT verbatim, its been years since I last read it.  Since 1 group of monks were agnostic how could they be blessed by the gods.  Anyway, While Im not positive about the "EQ Defination" of Agnostic it can also mean, "Beholden to no particular god".  The fact is that irrufutably the Gods exist in EQ and EQ2.  No one is denying their existance.</p><p>This quest idea is in order to enrich the Roleplay experiance (stupid Idea I know).  It doesnt have to be called Agnostic, Call it heretical or something else.  </p><p>My point is this.  My character is opposed to the gods and their historical actions.  Not all of them.   Just most of them.  Quellios, Tunare, Zek, Innoruk.  Any God that is at the extreme point of any view.</p><p>I think I and others should be allowed to express that through a questline.  Denouncing the Gods and Kicking the [Removed for Content] of their chosen ones.  Thats all....why is that unreasonable?  Its an idea, its a thought...as Im so often told on other matters, just because I dont see a value in something doesnt mean another doesnt.</p><p>Im putting the idea out there.  It has nothing to do with the Real world.  It has everything to do with the EQ world.</p>

[KBern]

<p>I can see where you are coming from now and I think the confusion came from the use of the word agnostic.</p><p>This would almost have more of a purpose on PvP servers, where maybe the people who choose this route do not get any god miracles or blessings or cloaks but also cannot be harmed by those powers/affects when used on them by other players....a sort of immunity to diety blessings, etc.</p>

[Rooksarii]

<p>Game mechanic wise, why do the benefits have to be represented in a divine sense if the choice a player makes for the slot typically occupied by a deity is "agnostic"? Basically the effects could be on par with a deity line, but have names like "Heretic's Resolve" or the like. Rather than from the divine, they draw more "power" from focusing of reason or even just the against the grain mindset. This is not to say Agnostic would be better or reflect the character (RP wise) as being smarter, but just shielded and driven by this moral system over, say, the moral system of the gods of honor or hate.</p><p> "Agnostic" as an active choice (ie running through a quest line) as opposed to a passive choice (ignoring the deity-style quests) would offer some nice RP value, but also give more of an option in benefits over just foregoing these added benefits. The "alter" would be a reading desk or the like...same clicky options, but instead of "pray" you could have "study" or "reflect" or such.</p><p> I think this idea has merrit, and I'd go this route for sure...that is if or until they add Erollisi Marr into the game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Zannah]

<p>Maybe you're referencing not just a 'higher' power, but the 'highest' power.  In the EQ/EQ2 set of worlds this would be 'The Nameless'.  Basically the power that created the gods and the universe.  Veeshan would be a close second to this, since she is the mother of all dragons, both good and evil.</p><p>Both of these entities are 'bigger' than just the world of Norrath, and encompass all aspects of Chaos and Order.  It reminds me alot of the The Eternal Champion and service to the Balance.  Depending on what was needed, that character would serve Chaos or Order - striving to bring Balance to the Multiverse.</p><p>Some of the problems of 'worshiping' this entity are addressed in LoN - If you are a 'light' type character and you choose to employ 'shadow' abilities or units, you lose something - power, health, etc.  The converse is the same - 'light' using 'light' gets a bonus.  Some of the games Ive played in the past had penalties for using dark/damaging arts if you were spec'd as a light/healer - Like using Darkside Force Powers as a Light Side Jedi.  You still get access to the power, but it might not be as strong or efficient.</p><p>It dosen't appear that you are after anything but a choice that you can visualize in some manner - the choice not to believe in the petty godlings that are nosing their way back into the Norrath that we kicked them out of so long ago - the choice of a power that is above their childish displays of dominance.</p><p>The lore exists for those types of entities, but you might have to renounce each godling that is in current existance at their prophets altar and sacrifice the cloaks of each at the Void of the Nameless to begin that journey...</p>

[Redbed]

<p>mmm...Im more of the refusing to worship anyone or anything mindset.  In the case of a few of the gods I would like to actively discourage their activities.  Anyone who exists at the extreme of any ideal.</p><p>Ill give some examples.  </p><p>Zek - He should be opposed because constant stuggle and strife leads to chaos and destruction.  Some struggle and strife is inevitable and healthy, but at the extreme, its bad.  Case in point the Rallosian Wars.</p><p>Qeullious - She should be opposed for exactly the same reasons.  To much calm and too much peace arent good either.  People stagnate and without challange they sleep inside.  Never achieving their potential.  </p><p>Tunare - Her followers tend to be on the overzeolos side of things.  I love a nice forest as much as the next guy but dammit, if I need a chair, some tree has to die.  If Im hungry then that poor little fawn is going to be my dinner.  I dont see followers of Tunare jumping in to save me when that 10 foot tigre comes looking for his supper.</p><p>Bertoxillus - Do I even need to say why this guy should be opposed?  He makes things soggy and smelly.  </p><p>All Im saying is there is plenty of reason to have an all encompassing anti-deity faction.  Those who would deny the Gods (any god) unbridled power on Norrath.  </p>

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Redbed wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Qeullious - She should be opposed for exactly the same reasons.  To much calm and too much peace arent good either.  People stagnate and without challange they sleep inside.  Never achieving their potential.  </p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">You're confusing Peace and Tranquility with Laziness and Atrophy. Go study with the monks some more. Heck, Bruce Lee invented the practice of Jeet Kun Do, a martial arts style where you anticipate your opponent's attacks by remaining calm and reacting fluidly to it. </span></p><p>Tunare - Her followers tend to be on the overzeolos side of things.  I love a nice forest as much as the next guy but dammit, if I need a chair, some tree has to die.  If Im hungry then that poor little fawn is going to be my dinner.  I dont see followers of Tunare jumping in to save me when that 10 foot tigre comes looking for his supper.</p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">I can't think of any time in all of EQ2 where a druid, or anyone else who worships Tunare, admited to being only vegitarian. The only druid that ever actively hunted players for getting attacked by animals was Holly Windstalker, who took her views too seriously. She's the only case of being overzealous. It's just a game mechanic that prevents druids from jumping in to save you without having to kill the animal in return.</span></p><p>All Im saying is there is plenty of reason to have an all encompassing anti-deity faction.  Those who would deny the Gods (any god) unbridled power on Norrath.  </p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">There is ALWAYS the case of someone taking something way too far to the extreme. It doesn't matter what god it is, you'll always find someone who goes too far. This does not mean that the god's religion in general only focuses on one thing, or that it's followers don't know how to show restraint. You're assuming that just because players worship a diety, they dedicate thier entire existances as a player of a video game and completely change the way they play the game just because of that diety.</span></p></blockquote>

[Vendolyn]

When Velious came out in EQ1, I was already a pretty big dragon buff.  Once I managed to kill enough giants to pass through Skyshrine, I was hooked.  On raids, I'd spot for our pulling in ToV since I wasn't KOS, and when I had downtime between pulls, I would tell guildmates stories of CoV and why I didn't want Kael armor ;pNaturally, the first thing I did when I received a beta key was to create a correlation between Mysha and Mitka Delphine, my EQ1 characters, to my new batch of EQ2 characters ; )I'm still waiting on the moment when I can technically, in-game worship the Wurm Queen.  Until then, I'll just RP it into my characters' story lines!It would be nice to have the old deity lines back, including Agnostic. 

[Redbed]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Redbed wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Qeullious - She should be opposed for exactly the same reasons.  To much calm and too much peace arent good either.  People stagnate and without challange they sleep inside.  Never achieving their potential.  </p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">You're confusing Peace and Tranquility with Laziness and Atrophy. Go study with the monks some more. Heck, Bruce Lee invented the practice of Jeet Kun Do, a martial arts style where you anticipate your opponent's attacks by remaining calm and reacting fluidly to it. </span></p><p>Tunare - Her followers tend to be on the overzeolos side of things.  I love a nice forest as much as the next guy but dammit, if I need a chair, some tree has to die.  If Im hungry then that poor little fawn is going to be my dinner.  I dont see followers of Tunare jumping in to save me when that 10 foot tigre comes looking for his supper.</p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">I can't think of any time in all of EQ2 where a druid, or anyone else who worships Tunare, admited to being only vegitarian. The only druid that ever actively hunted players for getting attacked by animals was Holly Windstalker, who took her views too seriously. She's the only case of being overzealous. It's just a game mechanic that prevents druids from jumping in to save you without having to kill the animal in return.</span></p><p>All Im saying is there is plenty of reason to have an all encompassing anti-deity faction.  Those who would deny the Gods (any god) unbridled power on Norrath.  </p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">There is ALWAYS the case of someone taking something way too far to the extreme. It doesn't matter what god it is, you'll always find someone who goes too far. This does not mean that the god's religion in general only focuses on one thing, or that it's followers don't know how to show restraint. You're assuming that just because players worship a diety, they dedicate thier entire existances as a player of a video game and completely change the way they play the game just because of that diety.</span></p></blockquote><p>History resounds with examples of people who anticipate their oppenants attacks and react calmly to them.  It did not originate with Bruce #$(*ing Lee.  Whoever (I Think a King Henry) planned out the Battle of Agincourt anticipated their oppenants attack and reacted calmly to them.  </p><p>If you think followers of Tunare are so loving then walk your monk butt through lesser faydark and tell the brownies, dryads and faeries you "wuv" them (Be sure to mentor down so they can "Hug" you).  Tunare is Nature, with all the good and bad that entails.  She is also a God, with all the good and bad that entail</p><p>And I dont expect the Players to act in any way shape or form.  Their real people with their own ideas and free will.  Alot of them switch Gods like ...Like Cloaks.  Im asking that I and others like me be able to roleplay their choice too.  I choose to refute them all.  Id like a quest line to manifest that.  I made some suggestions, none of them game changing or Overpowering.  Just suggestions if a Developer wants to run with them.</p>Now back to roleplaying, why would you race to kiss the [Removed for Content] of Deitys who abandoned the world.  Whatever their reasons, they LEFT when the world needed them most.  ALL OF THEM.  Dont you feel the anger seething through you?  Dont you feel the disgust at when finally things are shaping out, lands are being refound, the world is finally fixing itself that these 11 #$(*ers just come waltzing back.  "DID you miss us"?  Wheres the "My god abandoned me and all I got was a lousy cloak" T - shirt.  Thats the player Im saying would want a quest line like this.  Your happy with your god.  Ducky.  Im not happy with your god, or anyone elses for that matter.</blockquote>

[Wyrmypops]

<cite>Redbed wrote:</cite> <blockquote><blockquote><p>History resounds with examples of people who anticipate their oppenants attacks and react calmly to them.  It did not originate with Bruce #$(*ing Lee.  Whoever (I Think a King Henry) planned out the Battle of Agincourt anticipated their oppenants attack and reacted calmly to them.  </p><p>If you think followers of Tunare are so loving then walk your monk butt through lesser faydark and tell the brownies, dryads and faeries you "wuv" them (Be sure to mentor down so they can "Hug" you).  Tunare is Nature, with all the good and bad that entails.  She is also a God, with all the good and bad that entail</p><p>And I dont expect the Players to act in any way shape or form.  Their real people with their own ideas and free will.  Alot of them switch Gods like ...Like Cloaks.  Im asking that I and others like me be able to roleplay their choice too.  I choose to refute them all.  Id like a quest line to manifest that.  I made some suggestions, none of them game changing or Overpowering.  Just suggestions if a Developer wants to run with them.</p>Now back to roleplaying, why would you race to kiss the [I cannot control my vocabulary] of Deitys who abandoned the world.  Whatever their reasons, they LEFT when the world needed them most.  ALL OF THEM.  Dont you feel the anger seething through you?  Dont you feel the disgust at when finally things are shaping out, lands are being refound, the world is finally fixing itself that these 11 #$(*ers just come waltzing back.  "DID you miss us"?  Wheres the "My god abandoned me and all I got was a lousy cloak" T - shirt.  Thats the player Im saying would want a quest line like this.  Your happy with your god.  Ducky.  Im not happy with your god, or anyone elses for that matter.</blockquote></blockquote><p>Blimey. My characters are happy enough to worship a deity they feel drawn to, but I know if they walked past an agitator on a soapbox and heard that, they'd stop and think about it for a second. That was great, nice one. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I'm sold. Dunno how it could be done, but would love to see it, however it could be done. A line of abilities like "<i>heretics zeal</i>" , "<i>blasphemous rage</i>", or "<i>disbelieve</i>". Getting them from an altar would be, ah, a little wrong eh. Perhaps from an agitator NPC on a clicky soapbox, or something. The turning items in could be done there too eh, donations to keep agitators like that fed. </p><p>Though, I'm still warm to the idea of a pantheonistic worship. It's what the common man does in pantheonistic cultures, worships whoever is appropriate for the situation they find themselves in. Nods to Tunare for a bounteous harvest, looks to Sol Ro for some sun, calls upon Mithy Marr for the courage to defend their place against enemies, prays to the Tribunal for justice when wronged. Could get a generic altar, or a host of altars - with an array of abilites spread across the deities focus. Whatever. </p>

[RufusDeMar]

<p>To me...The Tribunal is the least "religious" of the dieties...and thus I see it more like a "league of shadows" type of group.  Keeping the balance of norrath through swift justice to those who tip the scales.Whether or not that's Sony's vision of The Tribunal, that's how I see it.</p><p>But yea maybe giving an Agnostic choice would be a good idea.  </p>