What are the Devs thinking? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Angelrage

12-25-2007, 06:00 PM

I play a lvl 80 Guardian. We are a decent class. But here is the problem...LFG. Why? Because monks and swashbucklers are tanking ROK instances with no problem, and in some cases faster than we are. Why is the development team solving the tank shortage problem by allowing DPS to tank and giving them abilities that in some ways are superior to ours? We're a one-trick pony. All we can do really, is tank. Yet, we tank slower, because our DPS isn't the same as DPS's DPS. We have to build aggro, because 1 dmg = 1 hate, and we have less dmg compared to these classes, and thus less hate then they have, which is why they can de-aggro. We don't have the lock-down power of peel or consistent burst DPS. What do we bring to the table? Mit? Who needs mit? When DPS kills the mobs faster and you take less damage, you don't need mit. Plate armor is only artistic pixels. In PVP, scouts can kill us in 3 seconds. Raiding? Wonderful. Raids only need 1 guardian...maybe 2. So maybe this lack of utility and one-trick pony limitation thing is why the devs are trying to make a variety of classes completely capable of tanking, and thus EQ2 a world that doesn't need a tank to tank. And if all a tank can do is tank, and others do it as well or better....who needs a tank? Why play a tank? To tank in a raid? How many guilds are LFGuardian? And how many guardians do they need? And how many are in guilds but as third or fourth string players who rarely see a raid or play alts to get guild membership because "recruiting closed to guardian classes?"Look at what these other classes bring to the equation that we don't. High, sustained DPS, and thus zero aggro control problems. In scouts, track and evac. In monks, FD, Tsunami which works like TOS, self heals, avoidance which is just as useful as mit, and HPs within 2-3% of what a Guardian has.What does a guardian get? We don't get unquestioned dominance or desirability in tanking...and we are the tanks. You realize swashbucklers tank the final named in Maiden's faster and cleaner than we do? You have created DPS as a subclass of superior group tanks. And you have relegated your diminishing population of Guardians to LFG, because DPS tanks do it better, faster, and already the server population is imbalanced in popularity of DPS classes. And not only that, but they fill a DPS slot at the same time. I won't even mention what a guardian is like on a PVP server compared to these 2 classes, but in PVE? Since when did the devs decide the primary tank should be relegated to secondary status in desirability due to lack of utility. Why are DPS classes getting boosts that actually make them "better" group tanks and render us obsolete.Every group needs a healer. Every group needs a tank. But if you insist in making DPS competent and desirable tanks, you should give Guardians DPS on par with that of monks and swashbucklers, and you should give us the utilities they bring to the table such as evac and track, FD, large self-heals, and lock-down snap aggro to resolve the idiotic aggro control issues that no other class seems to have. I mean really, since beta guardians sucked at aggro. But you give monks a taunt over time? If all our class is good for is tanking, and DPS tanks as good or better... then why are we playing this game? To sit around LFG and watch swashies and monks tank in our place?Give us DPS on par with theirs so at least we'll be able to solo appropriately or survive on a PVP server.

Dragonlancer

12-25-2007, 08:31 PM

You might help us out by explaining if your PvP or PvE. What AAs did you take?What gear are you using?

Galn

12-25-2007, 08:58 PM

OP stated he is on PvP. I have a Swashbuckler, Monk Shadowknight and Guardian. I've seen the differences in how well they all tank. I tend to disagree with a lot of what he has said. I just cant see a non-plate tank tanking much of the RoK stuff. Before then, yes, I tank with the Swashy, but it also takes the right group backing him up. The Shadowknight tanks fine but it is just a bit easier on the Guardian. Monk takes the right group behind him too.

Rolande'

12-26-2007, 01:44 AM

I can understand what he is going through somewhat, but I dont think we are subpar at all. I am not sure why he is having aggro issues, unless he is in groups with high end raid dps and he isnt equipped to hold aggro from them. I myself have np holding aggro in a solid dps group. I do around 1500-1700 zw in t8 instances with gear i recieved from the instances and the quest leveling up to 80. I usually group with a necro and brig that do around 2k+ zw and have very little issue with aggro pulling. As others have asked, what aa's do you have? what gear? what kind of weapon? I am using the shortsword of nathsar from coa.. and I am around 39% crit.. so my auto attack is doing around 850 zw and that isnt with any really good buffs. I would love to have a dirge or illus regularly but I cant seem to talk my guildies into leveling one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaleyen

12-26-2007, 11:27 AM

He does have a valid point.My Monk was my first toon to level 80, I was tanking CoA and VOES at 74, at 80 there isn't a heroic instance I can't tank on my Monk.As my Guard I can tank the same heroic instance stuff but I'm also the raid MT...can't do that on my Monk.My Pally can do everything my Guard can do, just the raid MT'ing is a tad harder for survivability but aggro wise it's a lot easier.Before RoK on my Ranger (Ranger is still 70 so as I level him up going to see if I can't tank RoK heroic instances) I could tank all heroic instances as well...yup, that's right, a Ranger...so it doesn't even take a Rogue to tank heroic instances.

Daghammerskold

12-26-2007, 01:06 PM

Two quick pointsFirst, the way he phrases things the OP seems to be saying Monks are not tanks. Monks are tanks.Second, I see GROUP LF TANK far more often than I see TANK LFG in chat.

LygerT

12-26-2007, 05:46 PM

honestly there is some truth to all of this ranting, i knew there would be some problems when i started hearing of scouts tanking most RoK instances this early on in the expansion with legendary gear.mitigation is a freaking joke nowdo i think guardians should have the same DPS as a monk or scout? nope, but the heavy armor our classes wear should count for something a little more than it has in this past year.. sometimes i think switching to chain would yield little difference in damage taken since other classes can do the same and take only slightly less damage, with that the imbalance lies between the armor we wear and how much damage we take vs others wearing chain and leather armor with enough avoidance. do i think scouts and brawlers should be able to tank? situationally yes, but this early on with trash drop loot able to tank an instance while putting out far more DPS than a pure tank class kind of makes us feel a bit useless. even as a zerk i can at least DPS so i feel a little more confident in my place in a group but for guardians i think this problem will only get worse over time, forcing your class to need an achievement mirror and 2 full sets of gear- 1 for DPS tanking and 1 for mit/avoid tanking. i have both already adorned since i am an offtank but i do think this is getting a little out of hand when tanks are purely only needed for raids and nothing else. as for pvp, i think this is the first rant i have heard on this subject, most pvp still choose guard for primary tank as far as i have read up until now.

Kaleyen

12-26-2007, 05:49 PM

PVP wise best tank hands down is a good Paladin. As far as RoK and game mechanics go I think SOE needs to change up the mitigation curve again...I don't know to what, but it is a problem when this early on in the expansion to have Rogues being able to tank the group instances.

LygerT

12-26-2007, 06:40 PM

there is a lot that was hastily thrown together for this expansion, as you can see in tier 1 raids the melee tohit% is almost 100% but in higher tier zones it drops to next to nothing. tanks in full plate getting hit for 7k on the pull from heroic trash where a good brawler can dodge those hits or if he is hit only takes slightly more damage than the plate tank.now the real question is... is it a big enough of a problem to try and push the devs for a change and possibly have things screwed up more than they already have been? personally i'm not quite sure just yet, you always have the option of playing a different class. being the best at one thing isn't necessarily a bad thing is it? how about being mediocre at a few things instead?guards have been known to be the best MT for raids for some time but not the best at many other things, i find it hard to believe anyone could have not heard or known this and just now came to the realization that is how it was. i knew for a long time zerks cant take the hits as well as guardians can but we do slightly better DPS, i like to MT as well but i'm not going to betray so i live with what i have, it's just the way it is. (and yes a guardian with DPS gear on can DPS quite well as well. but as i mentioned its a royal pita to carry around 2 full sets of armor and jewelry to do 2 jobs)a number of things come to mind when thinking of this, but the first thing that came to mind is just roll an alt and be happy. heck, go roll a swashy so you can DPS and tank.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

Marie-Ange Jourdelune

12-27-2007, 04:20 PM

<cite>Angelrage wrote:</cite><blockquote>I play a lvl 80 Guardian. We are a decent class. But here is the problem...LFG. Why? Because monks and swashbucklers are tanking ROK instances with no problem, and in some cases faster than we are. Why is the development team solving the tank shortage problem by allowing DPS to tank and giving them abilities that in some ways are superior to ours? We're a one-trick pony. All we can do really, is tank. Yet, we tank slower, because our DPS isn't the same as DPS's DPS. We have to build aggro, because 1 dmg = 1 hate, and we have less dmg compared to these classes, and thus less hate then they have, which is why they can de-aggro. We don't have the lock-down power of peel or consistent burst DPS. What do we bring to the table? Mit? Who needs mit? When DPS kills the mobs faster and you take less damage, you don't need mit. Plate armor is only artistic pixels. In PVP, scouts can kill us in 3 seconds. Raiding? Wonderful. Raids only need 1 guardian...maybe 2. So maybe this lack of utility and one-trick pony limitation thing is why the devs are trying to make a variety of classes completely capable of tanking, and thus EQ2 a world that doesn't need a tank to tank. And if all a tank can do is tank, and others do it as well or better....who needs a tank? Why play a tank? To tank in a raid? How many guilds are LFGuardian? And how many guardians do they need? And how many are in guilds but as third or fourth string players who rarely see a raid or play alts to get guild membership because "recruiting closed to guardian classes?"Look at what these other classes bring to the equation that we don't. High, sustained DPS, and thus zero aggro control problems. In scouts, track and evac. In monks, FD, Tsunami which works like TOS, self heals, avoidance which is just as useful as mit, and HPs within 2-3% of what a Guardian has.What does a guardian get? We don't get unquestioned dominance or desirability in tanking...and we are the tanks. You realize swashbucklers tank the final named in Maiden's faster and cleaner than we do? You have created DPS as a subclass of superior group tanks. And you have relegated your diminishing population of Guardians to LFG, because DPS tanks do it better, faster, and already the server population is imbalanced in popularity of DPS classes. And not only that, but they fill a DPS slot at the same time. I won't even mention what a guardian is like on a PVP server compared to these 2 classes, but in PVE? Since when did the devs decide the primary tank should be relegated to secondary status in desirability due to lack of utility. Why are DPS classes getting boosts that actually make them "better" group tanks and render us obsolete.Every group needs a healer. Every group needs a tank. But if you insist in making DPS competent and desirable tanks, you should give Guardians DPS on par with that of monks and swashbucklers, and you should give us the utilities they bring to the table such as evac and track, FD, large self-heals, and lock-down snap aggro to resolve the idiotic aggro control issues that no other class seems to have. I mean really, since beta guardians sucked at aggro. But you give monks a taunt over time? If all our class is good for is tanking, and DPS tanks as good or better... then why are we playing this game? To sit around LFG and watch swashies and monks tank in our place?Give us DPS on par with theirs so at least we'll be able to solo appropriately or survive on a PVP server.</blockquote>You should really find the hole in the guardian class. Yep, the hole is big and deep. That hole permit a Guardian to be a better DPS than a tier 1 DPS. (parsing 2k+ in all RoK instances)Find the hole and keep it secret, otherwise a lot of tank will whine because they can't DPS anymore.Guardian can get DPS. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And for your main topic, TANK are always need to the end. At end game, too many tank are there waiting for a group. So, just try to form your group. After you had tuned your DPS up, you will parse 2k+ in any RoK instance, so each time you will form a group, you will get a lot of peeps running behind you.Marie-Ange

Kaleyen

12-27-2007, 05:09 PM

When you say "omg 2k DPS!" you're saying it but thinking of KoS/EoF level 70 Standards where 2k was decent. With level 80 and just the Legendary RoK gear the top end DPS classes are hitting 4k+ so a Guard doing half that isn't that big of a deal.

TuinalOfTheNexus

12-27-2007, 10:38 PM

You can get really close to matching dps classes once you appreciate it's autoattack that matters.We've actually got autoattack bonuses that most scouts would envy. With a dps-oriented setup a decently geared Guard has about 40% AE, ~50% crits, ~30% double, ~80 haste, ~120 dps mod self-buffed with a 2H.We absolutely have high sustained DPS if you know how to gear correctly and use the strengths of the class. In fact the sustainability of our dps is phenomenal, we just need autoattack on and something to hit. The real key is to focus on maximising offense and use the inherent strengths of class to compensate for any loss of defense. If a scout can tank an instance without a shield out, there's no reason you need one. Similarly, in somewhere like CoA, you're best pulling 4 mobs at a time and letting AE autoattack do the damage. If you start spiking you can fall back on Sentinel Sphere, ToS, Reflexes, and temporary mit buffs, all tools a Scout doesn't have.If you insist on needlessly hiding behind a tower shield and being purely defensive all the time, then it's no wonder you're outtanked (and outparsed) by scouts and brawlers. One of the most important skills you need as a high end tank is to look at the group you're got and the encounters you're facing and choose your gear and strategy appropriately.

Kaleyen

12-28-2007, 02:44 AM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you insist on needlessly hiding behind a tower shield and being purely defensive all the time, then it's no wonder you're outtanked (and outparsed) by scouts and brawlers. One of the most important skills you need as a high end tank is to look at the group you're got and the encounters you're facing and choose your gear and strategy appropriately.</blockquote>I don't know about you mate, but I have yet to bust out a two hander while tanking in Thuuga, Throne Room or The Protector's Realm.

Angelrage

12-28-2007, 02:34 PM

"I play a lvl 80 Guardian"The point is, why should I have to roll up an alt as the solution? Are guardians the best raid MT? Yes. Is that all they can do? Zerkers make decent raid tanks also, so do Paladins. Are guardians the best? Sure. I currently have 110 AAs. Would be higher if I didn't get ganked repeatedly on PVP server while solo questing. I have tried many spec's and am currently holding aggro better with the str/sta/int spec. But I still lose aggro because our DPS classes have gotten such a huge boost in ROK. And thats fine, i'm not saying we're broken or can't function. I'm saying when a pally has amends or a monk has peel, they don't have this problem. If we're the "best tanks," why aren't our aggro-gaining abilities up to par? When it comes to the final named in Maiden's, plate tanks aren't the first choice for this reason. Because you have to lose aggro on the mob, we have some issues grabbing snap aggro again and again. So other classes are actually sought out and preferred. For the ordinary game, a monk and a swash have superb DPS. How did they get to also be superb tanks? A guardian is a superb tank situationally...and not really anything else. And that's where I think a little guardian love is really needed...because more guardians rolling alts so they can better function in a group setting is a pitiful response. I know they are still fine tuning ROK. But I sincerely hope the devs pay attention to the fact that an ordinary non-raid MT guardian really isn't that desirable to tank ROK instances when so many other classes do as well and bring DPS to the table. I realize a zerker is supposed to be the DPS tank. But with non-plate tanks making superb tanks, where exactly does this leave the guardian? In the limited role of one day maybe becomeing the 0.01% of the server population who actually gets to be a MT? Why are we relegated to being a one trick pony? Give us something? Why go out of your way to ensure that so many other classes can function as a tank, and leave us competing with nearly everyone else to do the one role we were designed to fill the best. If you don't give us DPS, then give us a secondary healer role. Then we can heal the scouts who are tanking. A monk is a tank? Wonderful! A FD puller with a self heal and excellent top tier DPS with the HPs of a guardian. What exactly is a guardian? Don't even mention SK who can evac in pvp, fd on mobs, life tap self-heal and nuke. It's really sad when people's fears are that asking for a small boost in utility somehow threatens that devs might break the one role a guardian is king in, and thats the MT. But people really need to ask, because only a handful who play are the MT. And the way things are progressing, a guard won't even be king as a MT for long. Soon the coercers will solo the raid zones.I already parse about 1200-1700 dmg with buckler spec. I have the Rok legendary. Am i doing fine with my class? Sure. The issue is, for small group instances, we aren't that critical in the way a healer is critical, in the way a DPS class is critical. Do I get groups? Yes. But are we needed? Not really, and so there are less groups because so many other classes can do what we do, "plus" DPS. As a result, people are tanking ROK instances just fine with a swash or monk who DPS's in the role of a tank. We just can't compete with the dual role. They clear instances faster and smoother, while I sometimes go OOP spam taunting, reinforcing, etc to get the mob back when someone lands a crit. We pull slower and other classes seem to just tear thru instances because their situational better able to handle the adds. I mean seriously, a swashie who can tank is a dynamo. No one questions why a swashie can tank so well or receives so much DPS bonus. But people fear if a guardian asks for greater utility. Why is that? In PVP, guardians are a joke. You can only pvp when grouped, and groups don't always need you. The majority of pvp classes are better independant or duo, less tokens to compete over. When a scout can debuff our mitigation to zero and out DPS us in seconds while we're too stunned to even fight back, you can quickly see where PVP is going. My only point is, we are tanks. We are ONLY tanks. And classes that are PRIMARILY DPS tank as well as we do PLUS bring DPS to the equation. So then the issue becomes, is the only role of a guardian to MT raids? Because there's not much need for more than a few players in game to be MT's. And the rest of us are watching the only thing we can do, get done by other classes, who can also at least pvp. If you agree with my views or not, thats fine. Consider all the tanking benefits and utilities DPS classes have. Why is it threatening to give a guardian something, if not DPS, then unquestioned aggro on mobs when Illusionists, wizards, warlocks and raid geared DPS are DPSing. How about mitigation that really mitigates in a way that healers make do with DPS tanks, but actively seek out and prefer a guardian to tank instances? As for pvp...since we don't have DPS sufficient to kill anyone before they kill us...how about enough mitigation to give us a chance to survive while running away? I mean scouts get track and evac, mages get manashield, monks and zerkers can at least kill people. And healers can at least stay alive long enough to zone.

Angelrage

12-28-2007, 03:06 PM

"We've actually got autoattack bonuses that most scouts would envy."Lol. Scouts don't envy guardian auto-attack in any way shape or form in any capacity, be it PVE or PVP. Why would they? They are undisputed DPS kings...and a guardian...is not in any way, shape or form...DPS. That we CAN DPS to some degree is also not in dispute. But realistically, nothing a Guardian has can even remotely compete with the scout classes. So why do scout classes get tanking abilities which compete with, rival and displace a guardian? I mean seriously, are devs even paying attention?

Angelrage

12-28-2007, 03:37 PM

"as for pvp, i think this is the first rant i have heard on this subject..."Uhmmm...then it needs more exposure. There are many threads, but devs never read them sadly. Here's one, check it out.PVP Class Rankings from Worst to best<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=396439" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=396439</a>Top 5 worst are:1. Guardian - has health, nothing else at all.2. Conjuror - has stoneskin, but that's pretty much it.3. Necromancer - Squishy, squishy and...squishy!!! Nothing special to save himself other than fear and lifetaps.4. Fury - WORST PvP ancient teachings. We get: Hibernation (useable in PvP), Back into the Fray (can't be cast on self), Ring of Fire (situational) and Call of Storms (are you joking? Who in their right mind would use that...?)5. Templar - heal them to death...yeah, I see that working <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />. Can't kill templars...can't really get killed by MOST of them (exceptions exist of course).

LygerT

12-28-2007, 04:59 PM

while i somewhat see where you are coming from i see this as a fully defensive tank perspective. if you are having aggro issues at 1700 DPS then your group makeup is not right or your DPS classes are being stupid. you keep mentioning you need more DPS to PvP and PvE both, you were given that with the additional AAs.guardians have some of the best aggro tools aside from amends. if you want to try seeing how it is with the shoe on the other foot then play a berserker, if we trade off too much DPS for survivability then we get mobs peeling off us left and right to where it isn't even funny anymore and turns this whole argument into a joke for us. we can't take huge hits for any extended amount of time because we lack tools to do so, guardians do have those tools but slightly less DPS with better aggro management. when you started complaining about your taunts is when i totally discounted this rant because your taunts are much better than ours, so basically you want our offensive skills and keep your defensive ones?tanking isn't just about survivability, it's about keeping mobs stuck to you, if ithat means swapping out a piece of armor with + parry on it for one with +double attack then that is your job. does it suck we have to keep so much equipment on us for every occasion? it sure as hell does... but we make do.for PvP, i hear you. i played on a PvP server as a zerk for about a month and got so fed up with soloing that i left and went back to my old server. this game was never originally based around PvP and probably never will be.

Angelrage

12-28-2007, 06:34 PM

"if you want to try seeing how it is with the shoe on the other foot then play a berserker"I have betrayed a number of times and have played both classes. I know what each are capable of. It isn't a topic about differences between a berzerker and a guardian. It's a topic about how non-plate classes are tanking and displacing plate tanks, particularly guardian since they also bring DPS to the table. And I mean DPS sufficient to finish the zone significantly faster than a guardian can do it and oftentimes more desirable because of the better speed and ability to tackle multiple mobs. And look at the plate classes? Pallies have better aggro control, plus heals. SK has significantly more DPS, plus FD, evac, HT, Lifetaps, nukes. A zerker does get excellent aggro management, excellent tanking ability and DPS. And a guardian gets....well he can make a great MT in a raid for some guild who might happen to be looking for one."if you are having aggro issues at 1700 DPS then your group makeup is not right or your DPS classes are being stupid."Perhaps our DPS and aggro management have not received the same boost that DPS classes have received in ROK upgrades, thus creating another avenue of imbalance. "you keep mentioning you need more DPS to PvP and PvE both, you were given that with the additional AAs."I keep mentioning that DPS classes were given the ability to act as tanks independant of the tanks, thus effectively displacing them. Because of their better DPS, as primary DPS classes, they are more desirable to single group instances when geared right. An example of this was in our guild, 4 plate tanks were online, 2 berzerker, 2 guardians. When asked who was tanking the ROK instance, chat said, "the swash." That left 4 tanks without a group. If you don't see something wrong with this scenario, I can't help you. As for PVP, since the goal is to kill someone, and guardians don't have DPS or ability to kill fast enough before they are killed no matter what they spec...it's a moot point. I asked for survivability in pvp. A reasonable proposition considering we're walking around in huge graphical hulking plate armor."guardians have some of the best aggro tools aside from amends." We have good aggro tools. But aggro from taunts is not sufficient. Sony has given the formula for hate generation as 1 dmg = 1 hate. Since the ROK upgrade, everybody is doing significantly more DPS, and thus more hate aggro. Berzerkers, swashies, monks peel mobs off guardians, not from taunts, but from sheer DPS. It's not that our aggro tools don't work, its that a pally and a monk can more effectively lock down the mob than we can. And for these reasons, in some scenarios are the preferred tanks. that was one example of guardian losing place in the desirability as a tank."...play a berserker, if we trade off too much DPS for survivability then we get mobs peeling off us left and right to where it isn't even funny anymore."As I noted, zerker derives aggro from DPS. And is often more effective at keeping mobs, especially multiple mobs than a guardian. But it isn't a comparison between guardian and zerker. Why make it one? Its a complaint that swashbucklers and monks have displaced plate tanks because they're doing a better job in legendary ROK gear due to the combination of their higher DPS, their ability to generate better sustainable aggro, their ability to not get hit. I'm not exaggerating when I say they clear zones faster. Why are these classes being given excellent tanking tools, and guardians not given an edge above them as a primary tank? I mentioned some kind of DPS. You don't like that because it infringes on the definition of a zerker. Yet zerker's MT tier 1 ROK raid instances. Some guilds don't even have a guardian. I'm saying classes who primarily function as DPS are given the ability to tank independant of a plate tank. And they all bring DPS to the table. the only one hurting from the DPS equation is the guardian...in comparison with other classes. And the least we could receive is some defensive edge which would give us desirability and preference as a tank. Because as it now stands, a swash or monk tank in single group instances is preferred. They simply do it faster and fill a DPS slot in the process."we can't take huge hits for any extended amount of time because we lack tools to do so, guardians do have those tools but slightly less DPS with better aggro management."A Berzerker can MT Rok tier 1 raids. They aren't hurting in any capacity as a tank. A Berzerker has better aggro management in single group instances not because of taunts, but because of DPS. In a raid, you get hate transfer in the MT position, so you don;'t see how inadequate a guardian's aggro tools really are when when challenged by hardcore lvl 80 DPS. Just group with a guardian, who doesn't have hate transfer, and see if in that group his taunts can keep your DPS from peeling mobs off him. And you will see him spamming taunts and reinforcement just to maintain that aggro. And if he isn't buckler specced, you'll probably be tanking. Again, this isn't a run down against berzerkers. Because I betray so often between them, I see guardians as the weaker side of the berzerker plate tank IN SINGLE GROUP INSTANCES. I was talking about monks and swashies tanking in our place, and sometimes doing a better job because of the better tanking tools THEY have been given. A zerker, by comparison, can at least hold his own BECAUSE he brings DPS to the equation. I'm all for a guardian being superior defensively. But that's not what's happening. Scouts are tanking and replacing us, because they can do more. "when you started complaining about your taunts is when i totally discounted this rant because your taunts are much better than ours, so basically you want our offensive skills and keep your defensive ones?"Taunts don't hold aggro without DPS. Thats why a buckler specced guardian is more effective at aggro control than a raid specced defensive one. To compensate for lack of aggro management on a purely defensive specc, SONY should give guardians tools like peel or amends, and that way guardians won't have to tank small group instances with a dinner plate pretending to be scaled down berzerkers. I agree with you, the blurring of class distinctions is what started this rant in the first place. A guardian shouldn't HAVE to DPS. But since the other classes like scouts are displacing us as tanks, then we should at least have scout DPS to compensate. And if you think thats stupid...you're right. It is. A scout class should ONLY be able to DPS. A monk should ONLY be able to tank short term in special circumstances as an emergency offtank or puller. And the plate tank classes...should TANK. Got a problem with that?"tanking isn't just about survivability, it's about keeping mobs stuck to you, if ithat means swapping out a piece of armor with + parry on it for one with +double attack then that is your job. does it suck we have to keep so much equipment on us for every occasion? it sure as hell does... but we make do."What does this have to do with plate tanks being dispaced as tanks in Rok single group instances? If a tank can't tank as a critical and desirable class because DPS is tanking more efficiently, what exactly is our new role? Crafting?

LygerT

12-28-2007, 10:53 PM

<cite>Angelrage wrote:</cite><blockquote>"tanking isn't just about survivability, it's about keeping mobs stuck to you, if ithat means swapping out a piece of armor with + parry on it for one with +double attack then that is your job. does it suck we have to keep so much equipment on us for every occasion? it sure as hell does... but we make do."What does this have to do with plate tanks being dispaced as tanks in Rok single group instances? If a tank can't tank as a critical and desirable class because DPS is tanking more efficiently, what exactly is our new role? Crafting?</blockquote>if you don't understand that final statement then i really see the problem lies in your own logic. i keep a set of pure DPS gear on so i can tank the instances without aggro issues and keep one set on me for tanking RoK raid zones since i am our secondary tank. i know i am not a guardian but i have seen guardians come close to our DPS so i know the capability is there in that guardians can DPS fairly well if you outfit yourself to do so and will still take hits better than a swashy or brawler. i'm not here to start anything with you, just trying to point you in the right direction. on a side note, if your guildmates are choosing a swashy to tank over your plate tanks then you really deserve better guildmates.. only [Removed for Content] would pass up a spot for a friend to cut 5 minutes off a zone.

Angelrage

12-29-2007, 08:14 AM

But you miss the point entirely. Why are swashies tanking so well we're an afterthought? It eliminates our role with the exception of raids and completely undermines the plate class. It has nothing to do with having "nice" guildmates. From a purely utilitarian perspective, we are completely displaced in ROK. And the devs better get on the ball about it.

LygerT

12-30-2007, 02:55 AM

not missng the point, with an excellent healer(s) most scouts and mainly brawlers should be allowed to tank lesser instances than a raid setup. they have the defensive abilities for a reason. if you start to tell people their place then you open yourself up to them wanting your main focus as well. brawlers already ask for more tanking ability, some even want to be equals to us as main tanks with more avoidance checks for themselves.i still think the changes are screwy where plate tanks are getting nuked into oblivion in the new raid zones, which is where my main problem lies with us being tanks and losing our perspective. do i like the fact that when the MT goes down to massive spike damage i have to step in and be next to wait for that massive hit that 1-2 shots me? nope, i like trying to stay alive as much as the rest of the raid force does. i think it does heavily rely on how your guildmates feel regardless of if you think so or not, it all boils down to your guildies just wanting to destroy an instance a few minutes faster vs letting the tanks do their jobs. scouts have places in group setups as much as tanks do so why not put both of them in there? if it's about aggro issues then my previous point about upping your DPS for hate is where this problem lies. as i have said i have seen guardians DPS fairly well vs our own class so i know that potential is still almost equal and a with it the aggro issues should be non existent with the right group setup. only classes i have some aggro issues with is some brigands who overdo it and do not use deaggros, that is just due to negligence and i let them have their fun, it doesn't hurt me any but it might hurt them if they do it too often or for too long.

Angelrage

12-30-2007, 01:55 PM

"with an excellent healer(s) most scouts and mainly brawlers should be allowed to tank lesser instances than a raid setup. they have the defensive abilities for a reason."Since DPS is tanking, tanks are LFG. Thats completely unbalanced. What is the need for a tank apart from a raid?"i think it does heavily rely on how your guildmates feel regardless of if you think so or not, it all boils down to your guildies just wanting to destroy an instance a few minutes faster vs letting the tanks do their jobs."Over 75% of instance groups are pick-up groups, not tight knit guild buddies...at least not on Naggy. And they are looking for sheer utility...and Guardians get passed up most of the time because Plate tanks have neither tanking dominance, nor DPS, and thus speed utility. So for all practical purposes, since better tanking abilities are given to scout and primarily first tier DPS classes, the traditional tanks are without a role.I don't care about your raids. Not everyone who plays this game is in a raiding guild. There's no reason at all to shaft a viable playing class and limit the only role they can shine in to that of MTanking raids.On the other hand, problem of non-viability solved. I betrayed and became a zerker again. Guardian is my first choice, but for what it's worth, if even in discussion forums, class utility, balance and viability are argued against and dismissed, the devs will never look at the problem. A guardian is next to useless on a PVP server when they #1. can't solo pvp and need groups #2. groups aren't looking to group them because top tier pvp classes do better solo or duo with DPS due to token hoarding #3. can't tank instances as fast or efficiently as top tier DPS classes acting as tanks and finally #4. Aren't in a raiding guild.I don't have time to waste debating derailing issues. The Guardian, as well as every other plate tank should have some sort of pre-eminance in tanking, be more efficient and easier to heal and thus primarily desirable for the tanking role. Without that, we really are finished. And you aren't kidding about being nukked into oblivion. We had 4 tanks in guild LFG the other day when the swash ran the instances with the only healers in guild on-line. So we made a pvp group. Kind of like a joke. But even I was shocked when our group of guardians was basically one-shotted by fission.Hopefully Warhammer will be more promising than this.

LionWilled

12-30-2007, 06:50 PM

Why not sum up this whole post as just......"Nerf Rogues"Seriously, it wouldn't be trolling, they need it, badly.I have a Brigand, I don't care, Rogues atm in pvp and pve are just about the most overpowered classes I've ever seen in any mmo I have ever played (EQ1 Necros and Bards were almost worse, hard to say).

Kriddle Kraddle

12-30-2007, 10:14 PM

I have to agree that guardian tanking needs improvement. Im not saying they cant tank anything in the game because I know for a fact they can, I would just like to see more defensive abilities and better agro control. Back when EQ2 first came out there was supposed to be vanguard armor which was a step above plate and only useable by guardians. This obviously never made it live and if it did now would it really be all that great because mitigation doesnt mean too much due to deminishing returns. I still dont understand why crusaders can use tower shields and also feel that berserkers should wear leather or chain armor while keeping very high DPS. To compensate berserkers however they should get a mit increase when wearing this type of gear so they can still viably tank but IMO shouldnt be able to get the same mit as guardians.As for agro management guardians need more taunt abilities and higher threat gain on each. Currently guardians can do a great deal of DPS if spec'd correctly and wearing the right gear. In this spec guardians can still tank most encounters in the game just fine while maintaining agro. Honestly I feel this should change so that guardians can wear defensive gear which increases their threat, block, parry, mit, etc but at the same time lowers their DPS while maintaining agro control. In short what I would like to see for guardians is gear and abilities that have more defensive and threat gain components. At the same time less DPS while tanking because I feel we are tanks and not teir 1 dps.

LygerT

12-31-2007, 07:31 AM

main problem is with the warrior defensive stances, zerkers take a huge hit in that area which is why we are forced to take a more offensive role to hold aggro where guardians have a self skill buff which offsets that somewhat. both classes have the same issues while holding a defensive role meaning easy aggro loss without the DPS to hold a mob. this one single area is where i do believe you are right and really needs some serious tweaking so that those who choose not to use a buckler can use a tower shield and still be effective for most situations.

Angelrage

12-31-2007, 03:24 PM

You keep making it a run by run comparison between berzerkers and guardians and it isn't. Guardians literally are forced into buckler specc and offensive stance simply to hold aggro, and that kinda violates the design and intention of a guardian. The point of this thread is as a PLATE tank and the two top tier plate tanks should hands down be berzerker and guardian since they are flip coins of one another. The PLATE tank should have some sort of tanking pre-eminence. The fact that a guardian has to do all out DPS to keep aggro, thus imitating a scaled down berzerker should tell you something is flawed in design mechanics. The full defensive Guardian WITHOUT the buckler specc or offensive stance is the worst tank class at holding aggro in any game ever made.But it isn't a rant about aggro issues, thats simply a reflection of the deeper issue. And the deeper issue is the guardian, in full defensive glory is a useless tank...UNLESS he is in a raid, with max buffs and hate transfer, i.e., in a MT group. So if all you're doing is raiding on the guardian, with max raid gear and a guild that groups you, you don't really understand how the guardian class is severely bypassed in single group instances.When I mean severely bypassed, I mean so many other tanks tank in our place that we literally have no place. Can guards tank? Yes. Are they the best tank? Not for single groups due to the lower DPS, slower runs, and no pre-eminence in mit or defensive ability to cause groups LFTank to wait a bit to see if they can't grab a guard. The fact that groups would actually prefer a raid specced swashie or monk over crusaders or guard/zerk is a real indictment of how bad the status of the plate tank is. Groups don't even NEED a traditional tank. They just group a top tier DPS class who can tank the hell out of a zone. So logically, think...where does this leave the guardian? The defensive end of the guard/zerk spectrum? At least the zerk brings DPS to the equation. What I'm saying is the def capabilities of the guard for the typical gameplay purposes of single group instances is so marginal, that not only do we not have pre-eminence as a def tank...but we don't even have desirability for gameplay. And on a pvp server, where a guardian is dead in the water without a group, it's just a class beyond neglected...it's a dead class, with the sole exception of that 1 role as a raid main tank, which the smallest percent of the server population is.If Sony doesn't want to lose more customers, they need to really work the classes a bit better. It makes perfect sense that a guard should have lousy DPS, but compensate by being the most solid, desirable, defense and group tank around. And since it's not the case, it's simply an undesirable class. And people who reach lvl 80 don;'t want to start on an alt just to play the high end game. Why give all these extra boosts and perks, like tanking abilities to scouts and leave your plate tanks, and especially guards in the dust like this?It doesn't even make sense.

LygerT

12-31-2007, 06:34 PM

can't try to reason with someone who doesn't listentry focusing on one aspect, do you want DPS or do you want the defense with pure control over the mobs? tanking isn't supposed to be easy so aggro control is a chore and quite challenging at times. the way this is going if they give us better tools at holding aggro while defensive then it would still be a issue of players choosing scouts due to their DPS and vice versa, if they gave tanks more DPS then a scout then we would be the most overpowered class in the game for utility. sure we need a bump in defensive aggro tools in some areas but that still won't cure the things you are complaining about which is time based play vs chance for less wipes through any given zone. you can't have it both ways.. you adapt or [Removed for Content]you have to think about 24 classes, not just the one you play.

Wabit

01-01-2008, 05:57 AM

ugg where is gaige when ya need him???brawlers are tanks, they have been since the game came out... it went fighter lvl 1-9, brawler 11-19, monk/bruiser 20+... even in the SOE forums themselves monks and bruisers are in the fighter subclass... monks get defensive abilities because they are tanks... monks have: 3 stances, a taunting proc, 2 taunts, 2 mita short buffs (one of which is utterly useless), tsunami, a self magic ward, a big heal, and a good lvl 80 ancient teaching (or whatever ya call it)... they have rescue, intercede, and the add avoid to someone else buff that all the plate tanks have with the different wordings...the argument that you only need one maybe 2 guards on a raid holds on water... you don't need a brawler at all on raids... brawlers really don't add much of anything that another class can't do better... an offtank guard useing moderate and recapture has way more use than a brawler adding a miniscule amount of dps/haste... brawlers AE argo really blows compared to that of the plate tanks... monks have 1.5 PBAE's, plus a procing PBAE with the right AA, and one encouter taunt... brawlers make for good group tanks and good soloers... but as a raid tank block > deflection; plate > leather; and warior AA > brawler AA...non-raiding guards will have no use for the recapture ability (who takes 2 tanks in the same group???)... the bloodline skill guards have the upper hand if you are smart for grouping (soloing brawlers get the advantage)...scouts tanking is really nothing new... it started in DoF (the nightmare exp for guards imo)... now with the diminishing returns curve a legendary plate tank is pretty much equal in the abilty to take hits as a raid geared scout...thats where the real problem with plate tanks lies... its a line the devs have been walking for awhile now... they could go back to preLU13 where guards were the undisputed kings of group and raid tanks (i miss those days myself)... when 5 of a skill actully equaled a lvl... guard (with +5 def racial trait)+ warden + trouby + someone casting leadership on MT made almost everything short of kruthuk and BAoW trivial (might as well add in drayek [Removed for Content] icecomets every 5 secs)... make agro to where i could go /afk and make a samich 15 secs into the fight ( <3 templar reactives)...i'm not sayin guards are perfect, but giving them dps on par with the other classes [Removed for Content] them... agro should be more than dps... and abilty to hold agro shouldn't have to depend on getting a transfer or hate buffer... why not instead request that the game be made harder??? or that the effectivity of chain armor be reduced, or have a penelty for someone not equiped with a third avoid check (parry/block/deflection + base)messing with the 1hate = 1dps ratio would have profound effects gamewide... even a .5 change would take all the restraints the dps has... doing rough math... say guards do a base of 500hps via taunts and its now 750hps... now add in hate buffers tp get a 50% gain on that would take it to 1125hps... add in 2kdps for the guard and you are at 3125... now you've got a swashy doin 4k dps transfering 20% to you so another 800 hate to your total and in a raid you're at ~3900hps... take into account the deagros dps classes have, or a trouby, paly, ect. lowering their hate... it puts raid tankin on easy mode unless you add something like a memwipe, or uncureable stun/stiffle/mez to every mob (WoF sucked in t5 as a copout, don't wanna see someting like that again)... or we might get more raids like the bonesnapper, where its pays off to suck at your class...guards have grats agro abilities as it stands,our lvl 80 ability sucks for anything besides raiding... our AAs are decent and you can get away with or without any of the lines (espically as a nonraid tank)... if you don't like the buckler you can use a TS, or DW, or 2h while grouping and not lose much in the way of dps (ya just use the block check)... but if ya don't need to use something to stay alive why use it??? if this doesn't make any sence eh, its 4am new years day and i was out havein fun =P

Kaleyen

01-02-2008, 11:14 AM

Err...Monks on raids are sexy...if you get a good Monker who can DPS.

zormik

01-04-2008, 06:36 AM

If you're dpsing a lot lower then a zerker if you're using your offensive capabilities you have a problem. With the dim. returnscurve warriors hit over 100dps and haste in a group so easily there is almost no difference in single target dps, a berserker only really shines over a guardian when it comes to aoe and even there the gap is not that wide anymore since you guys can use the agi-line for more aoe-aggro.Warriors can have insane dps if specced correctly, even our raid MT owns the parse in heroic instances easily parsing over 3K.Really, use the potential of your class and if you don't know how to do it then try to find out what you're doing wrong. Complaining about a guardian is silly, it's the most powerfull tank there is with the best survivability and very high damage if you know how to play one.Maybe i'm biased by playing in a raiding guild but with what's at hand in rok in solo- and groupcontent you can really do insane dps aswell. Dpsgear is allover the place and you can get a legendary weapon that is pretty much as good and sometimes better then some fabled weapons.The main thing is if you wanna shine as a warrior you have to work for it since we are VERY geardependant. But in rok there's more then enough decent legendary and even treasured gear to do really well. Yes you will have to carry around a lot of gear but that's just how it's always been for tanks. We need defensive gear and offensive gear (macro's ftw).

Kriddle Kraddle

01-04-2008, 01:53 PM

I dont think DPS is an issue for guardians really. Honestly I feel guardians and berserker DPS should be lowered some at least when tanking. In turn their threat generation should be higher to make up for the difference. As for the guardians doing more or equal DPS to a berserker well I dont believe that at all. Sure guards can consistantly do a good bit of DPS a good berserker should be able to do more raid wide due to short term buffs. If your berserker isnt doing more than the guardian then you need a new berserker.

LygerT

01-04-2008, 02:35 PM

what seems to be the problem here is the OP can't find a group to get the gear to help him DPS to find more groups, problem likely lies in too many guardians on that particular server who are geared more defensively giving them a bad rep for DPS while in single group aspects and bumping them out of the equation for desirability. the pure fact is all fighter classes can do some insane DPS while tanking, enough to even make most scouts envious and make most casters feel rather obsolete without some [Removed for Content] nice buffs. earning a spot takes work, sometimes you have to drag yourself through the muck to show people you can do what you say you can otherwise if you don't do anything to correct the situation yourself you just perpetuate it.

dr4gonUK

01-06-2008, 05:53 AM

Guardian is everything i thought it would be. The best tank in the game.Sure other classes can tank, they just cant tank as well as a guardian all things being equal.Serkers in comparable gear parse higher dps but their health bar drops a lot faster than a guardians tanking the same mobs. I dont really see what the problem is. After 18months as a serker, the switch to guardian ( been playing guard for nearly 2 years now ) was exactly what i was looking for in a tank. Who needs dps when theres mages and t1scouts wanting groups. Our job is just to keep aggro and take the hits, i think we do that better than any other class. It may be a marginal advantage in some cases but we get the job done.

Wilin

01-09-2008, 07:38 PM

My DPS is solid and I haven't had this problem. I've been asked to come along as a DPS before. So for every swashie that steals a guardian's slot, there's probably a guardian stealing a swashie's slot. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vlahkmaak

02-08-2008, 03:01 AM

I play on a pvp server. I Dual wield and have parsed 2.8 k on my guard in offensive stance with guild groups - I usually wont dual wield in pick up groups becuase I dont know/trust their healing skills as I do that of guildies. Typically I parse lower in a pick up grp too but guild grp with coercer and dirge I need that 2+ k parse cuase our zerkers are breaking 4.8 5.2 easy. I used to like the buckler line but have found I can parse higher dual wielding. Shields on HB of course if the spike damage gets too big. However - I would like to see out MIT actually mean something as we loose alot of avoidance when dropping that tower shield (or buckler) to dual wield. I drop form 70% avoidance to about 56% -58% dual wielding in a group.

Noone

02-08-2008, 12:25 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I play on a pvp server. I Dual wield and have parsed 2.8 k on my guard in offensive stance with guild groups - I usually wont dual wield in pick up groups becuase I dont know/trust their healing skills as I do that of guildies. Typically I parse lower in a pick up grp too but guild grp with coercer and dirge I need that 2+ k parse cuase our zerkers are breaking 4.8 5.2 easy. I used to like the buckler line but have found I can parse higher dual wielding. Shields on HB of course if the spike damage gets too big. However - I would like to see out MIT actually mean something as we loose alot of avoidance when dropping that tower shield (or buckler) to dual wield. I drop form 70% avoidance to about 56% -58% dual wielding in a group.</blockquote>I think you nailed the problem right on the head. When I played EQ1 I tanked PoT as well as other high end instances with my warrior and a 2h or dual weild, never had to use a shield. I don't think they have found out how to make needing a shield work. I'm actually thinking of speccing to be able to tank dual weild or with a 2h, cause buckler just isn't letting me keep aggro 100% of the time, although I have been able to handle it better than i could in a previous post about aggro.

Vlahkmaak

02-08-2008, 02:51 PM

Noone - dont take me the wrong way. As a guardian you NEED to be able to use a shield. I am fairly well geared out and my guildies are excellent support. I don't tank dual wield in pick up groups becuase it is hazordous to group health. I only do it in pic ups when I feel it is safe. I am speced fo MT raiding so I usually roll in a tower. I gave up my buckler spec after out MT ahd to take some time off and I took his position. In PVP buckler is great against scouts and mages. Dual wield is good against mages but not good 1:1 against scouts (lacking riposte) due to loss of defense bt good agains scouts that are not all that good. When I am doing instances I fight dual wield in guild groups. All of COA except last guy I can do this with - that mother seems to ALWAYS open up with a back to back life tap on me so I pull him with Tower of Stone. Also - make sure you have tower of stone set up with a macro to use crap shield and have 4-5 of those crap shields in your inventory (fabled shields getting eaten up are costly). In raids I use a tower primarily and switch offensive once the mob is under control. I tried buckler spec for raiding but I prefer the 70+ avoidace of a tower in raids when things can go wrong really fast on new mobs it is safer - maybe once we get the new zones on farm status I will consider dual wielding them. Instance zones are doable dual wield IF you have good gear and decent weapons AND if your group support is geared and know their job well otherwise dual wield is just gonna drain healer mana.

Fungie

02-08-2008, 07:33 PM

Any guardian who thinks monks are better tanks should /quit for good. I play a guard (well), and anytime somebody is in need of a tank, they don't say, "Well, I'd rather have a monk."If you can't keep aggro, that's your own fault and/or a bad group make-up (e.g. guardian, brig, wizard, warlock, templar, defiler). If you're a 76 guard attempting to tank in groups with lvl 80 dps.... ok... a pally is a better tank for that group, but otherwise, guardians are the best.

rubels

02-10-2008, 02:31 PM

80 Guard currently t4 flagged , in tower spec. I am holding 45 + K parse with no rips. It all boils down to group make up raid build and dps that understands aggro management. I have no problems with other classes being able to "tank" instant single group content. The healers just have to work harder then normal.The major split is at the raid level when t2 + mobs will just flat out destroy non tank classes.- Krovax

ARSONSIT

02-14-2008, 10:41 PM

I don't think any other tank or scout class can avoid as much damage as a Guardian , or keep hate as well. I also don't think Monks or scouts will be able to tank 4-5 heroic mobs or 2-3 heroic mobs in Chelsith as easy as a Guardian can. I have no problem surviving in heroic zones on my Guard , and I'm usually first or second on the parse when I'm doing group instances.

Hirofortis

02-15-2008, 01:35 PM

Hmm, I was reading though this and am a little suprised. Maybe it is becasue I focus more on raiding, but with my full defensive spec I have no problem holding agro in raids where we are hitting 30 - 40 k DPS. I run, Str, Agi, Int and have yet to run into any serious issues with the DPS classes pulling agro from me. I actualyl see more pull from either a monk or the other guard in the raid then I do from the scouts. Even better is I am only parsing around 1k as I have not needed more. Guess I should push it to see if more DPS looses me agro. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vlahkmaak

02-20-2008, 05:52 PM

Guardians cannot come close to zerker DPs. Our Zerks are breaking 5k easy. My best parse is 2.8k in COA with a super DPS grp fo me (Guardian - dual wielding Nathsar Short and Anaphylaxis) +dirge+coercer+zerker + fury+Wiz. My strength was just short of 1200 and I was in ful DPS back up gear (+melee crit/DA and all that jazz - something I dont get to wear often). To keep aggro off the Zerk I had moderate on him. I was using taunt short sword, tuant gloves, tuant bracers, + our coercer had his leash on him and the wiz. My best fight was 2.8 k (yhea, had just burned bind wound + LL ability to get all hit chances). The zerk rarely went below a 4k parse and I was spamming like hell. I held aggro becuase of all the utility in the grp and I would not normally tank in that fashion becuase the trade off in survivability (what a guardian is designed to do) to pretend to be a DPS machine (what zerkers do) makes no sense. When I really want to DPS tank I log to my bruiser or my brigand. I would like to see alot more hate proc items for guardians. My role is not DPS my role is grp survivability and aggro maint. If I am trading off parry/block/etc - the hallmark of what guards do best - for dual wielding I am not doing my job - I am imitating another class.

Thoral

02-21-2008, 05:37 PM

I was getting seriously upset about my aggro control until I realized that a Shadow Knight's Death March ability always pulls aggro. He was using it every other fight, and I was getting upset that I couldn't keep the mobs off him. Now we just coordinate better so that I can put in reinforcements just as he's deathmarching, and he only gets aggro for a sec. I don't really have problems keeping aggro off anyone but SK's and bruisers that don't have the de-aggro stance.

LygerT

02-22-2008, 03:34 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians cannot come close to zerker DPs. Our Zerks are breaking 5k easy. My best parse is 2.8k in COA with a super DPS grp fo me (Guardian - dual wielding Nathsar Short and Anaphylaxis) +dirge+coercer+zerker + fury+Wiz. My strength was just short of 1200 and I was in ful DPS back up gear (+melee crit/DA and all that jazz - something I dont get to wear often). To keep aggro off the Zerk I had moderate on him. I was using taunt short sword, tuant gloves, tuant bracers, + our coercer had his leash on him and the wiz. My best fight was 2.8 k (yhea, had just burned bind wound + LL ability to get all hit chances). The zerk rarely went below a 4k parse and I was spamming like hell. I held aggro becuase of all the utility in the grp and I would not normally tank in that fashion becuase the trade off in survivability (what a guardian is designed to do) to pretend to be a DPS machine (what zerkers do) makes no sense. When I really want to DPS tank I log to my bruiser or my brigand. I would like to see alot more hate proc items for guardians. My role is not DPS my role is grp survivability and aggro maint. If I am trading off parry/block/etc - the hallmark of what guards do best - for dual wielding I am not doing my job - I am imitating another class.</blockquote>this is what we were designed to do, though i find it kind of hard to believe the gap was that large unless the buffs were stacked in his favor over you. zerks need to fight to hold aggro so it was burned into us long ago that we gave up most of our survivability to be able to hold a mob off the DPS.

Rahatmattata

02-22-2008, 06:26 PM

<cite>Angelrage wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every group needs a healer. Every group needs a tank. But if you insist in making DPS competent and desirable tanks, you should give Guardians DPS on par with that of monks and swashbucklers, and you should give us the utilities they bring to the table such as evac and track, FD, large self-heals, and lock-down snap aggro to resolve the idiotic aggro control issues that no other class seems to have. I mean really, since beta guardians sucked at aggro. But you give monks a taunt over time? If all our class is good for is tanking, and DPS tanks as good or better... then why are we playing this game? To sit around LFG and watch swashies and monks tank in our place?</blockquote>What the [Removed for Content]<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

LygerT

02-24-2008, 04:49 PM

yep, i'm pretty sure he has lost his mind completely to want so much while having so much already. try flipping that coin and see how it is on our side of the tree if he thinks zerks are so uber. we lose wayyy too much for so little and leather tanks really need their place too, since they are technically not top tier DPS. the fact he wants to be T1 DPS and the best tank in the game tells me he belongs in the loony bin. IMO tanks shouldn't even be on the parser but we are now and that's the way it is.

Ocello

02-24-2008, 06:00 PM

Can somebody please reiterate to this knucklehead that MONKS AND BRUISERS ARE TANKS? And L2P if you can't keep aggro. Whether it is being a man and telling your crazy-nuking mages to back off a smidge or get the boot, or learning to time your auto attacks with your CA's. Idk what your root problem is with keeping aggro, but for the love of God Guardians don't need a dam boost, your personal tanking skill does. I don't mean to sound hateful, but as a monk, I am highly P-O'd that your shield gives you AVOIDANCE. Plate-heads can have more freakin avoidance than the supposed AVOIDANCE TANKS! Shields should = more Mit, not avoidance (and flame away all you want at that, you can beso-mi-culo). When you have 200 more mit PER PIECE of armor, you shouldn't NEED that kind of avoidance. It is a broken game mechanic, as far as I am concerned, and Brawlers have to make due with the fact that we are basically second-rate tanks and second-rate DPS, and thus work our behinds off to be good at either. Unless you count Dev Fist as real DPS (and as a brawler, I say it needs to be nerfed to about 10& on heroics, 50% non heroics, and beefed up to 1% on epics--but thats another topic), which every time I check my parser, I do the math and subtract all my Dev Fist damage to find my "real" damage. It's no secret that Monks may be the best instance tanks on the game atm due to Dev Fist, Tsunami, and FD, but that doesn't mean most people will let you tank unless you have 2 healers. Don't blame your troubles on brawlers and rogues, blame it on an abundance of healers--which are basically a necessity for raiding. And I am rambling on so I /quit.

BoneSmasher

02-24-2008, 07:50 PM

To be completely honest, if you are tanking RoK instances as a Guardian in just the gear dropping in those instances and what you can obtain from questing, your DPS should not be 1200 to 1700. It should be 2400 to 3400 and spiking close to 5K on names.I can do that consistantly with buckler spec, with or without a dirge or illy.If I run with a tower shield build, it drops my DPS against those numbers by about 300-500 per fight. Still well above what you are hitting with the buckler spec.I am not posting this to be mean or to say, "Lookie, I'm uber!" I just get tired of tanks complaining about poor DPS when the it is not the class that is the problem.I have never been out DPSed by another tank in RoK zone wide, in raids or in groups. Yes, brawlers with Dev fist beat me on instance namers now, but that is it.I always hated those posts where people say, "Learn to play." But in this case I am making an exception, since the OP is calling for all kinds of crazy and un-needed changes to the guardian class. If any of them were implemented we would be overpowered.

LygerT

02-24-2008, 08:03 PM

<cite>Brand@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be completely honest, if you are tanking RoK instances as a Guardian in just the gear dropping in those instances and what you can obtain from questing, your DPS should not be 1200 to 1700. It should be 2400 to 3400 and spiking close to 5K on names.I can do that consistantly with buckler spec, with or without a dirge or illy.</blockquote>dps is a rollercoaster ride as a tank, i have been in groups and thought i would have 0 aggro issues but you have to pay attention to where the buffs are going. such as say last night when i had an assassin and a dirge you would think i would have 0 aggro issues right? WRONG! if people are buffing up the dps classes and not the tanks then your DPS goes to hell and so does aggro- the assassin transferring hate was pulling aggro then the wizard then the monk. if you consistently get people with the wrong mentality of group buffing then i can easily see some of these issues coming up but it surely shouldn't be consistent. some nights i parse 8k on encounters and have 0 aggro issues for the night, next night i can go and take the same encounters and only hit 2200 on that 8k encounter from the previous night and be having aggro issues all night long. you can't spit out raw numbers and expect them to be solid, my numbers and aggro fluctuate greatly from group to group.

BoneSmasher

02-24-2008, 08:15 PM

What Lyger said is true. I normally check buffs to make sure that they are put on the right people and hate transfer is up, etc. And I always moderate the Brig! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Thoral

02-25-2008, 08:59 PM

Apparently I'm the noob that needs to L2P, as I rarely parse above 1.5K in buckler spec. I'm specced STR 4/4/8, AGI 4/8/8/2/1, STA 4/8/8/2/1, and INT 4/1 for Acceleration Strike. I have only 3 items from the easy RoK instances (CoA and Vaults).Can I expect that when I get more gear from the easy and hard RoK instances that my DPS will jump up to 3k, or am I doing something wrong with my combat arts? After taunting, I hit Acceleration Strike, then my debuffing attacks, then my increased crit right before my biggest damage CA, then the rest of my damage CAs.Thanks

BoneSmasher

02-26-2008, 10:23 AM

My point was my strong disagreement with the changes the OP was proposing since we don't need any of them.Getting high DPS as a guardian is not very hard, but is highly gear dependent.If you are not parsing, then you are not giong to get max DPS from your character. Get ACT and learn to use it.You should be running about 47 to 49% dmg from auto attack.The number one reason guardians I see having dps problems is that they are using the wrong weapons in the wrong AA spec.I have tested a lot of AA builds and the one I am running now gives me the maximum DPS. The AGI line sucks for DPSing guardians. My profile is alway open if you want to see what AA build I am running and what gear I run with. Except for a couple of T1 raid items, it is all instance or quested. I ran with the Buckler of the Howler until last week. (We are a family raid guild still in T1)Your goal in life if you are not a full time raider should be the Nathsar Short Sword from CoA, the easiest instance in RoK. Low delay weapons are horrible for DPS for gaurdians, no matter what the DPS rating is on the weapon. Max Delay + Max high hit is what you want. The dmg spread on the weapon is less important than the top dmg number since crits are max dmg + 30%. You are going to get most of your dmg from dble atk and crits. The NSS is the perfect weapon for gaurdian DPS.Add to that the Armguards of the Elite Yeh-lei shock troops from Bbah Gaz in Chelsith for the 50% increase in riposte dmg.Then you want to spec for the maximum dble atk from the AA lines.Then you want as much +melee crit gear as you can get.I normally run, self buffed, 77% dbl atk and 48% to 54% crit with a buckler.I run 13% riposte with the AAs and an adornment on the NSS. (remember a riposte is free dmg to the mob)Run tactics potions all the time for the extra 4% crit chance.Always carry Freedom of Action and Freedom of Mind potions for those nasty stuns and fears.Carry totems of the Goblin for maximum power regen. Especially for CoA.Finally, keep your str up to at least 800.4K mitigation is all you need to run any instance. Always tank in offensive stance unless your healers suck. Defensive stance cuts your DPS by 30 to 40% on avg.Learn to swap in and out of your stances as needed during tough fights.Learn to swap your buckler / tower shields in and out as needed during fights.If it is a tough pull, use your tower, let it stabilize and switch to your buckler.If it gets rough, swap to defensive, stabilize the fight and swap back to offensive.Use your CAs like a scout.My casting order is this:Accel Strike, followed by Executioners Wrath, then Decimate or Mar:Then the next 2 are the DoT debuffs we get.That puts the Accel strike into effect and debuffs the defense of the mob.Then just cycle through your CAs. (It goes without saying that you should have all your abilities at least at adept 3)I only taunt on body pulls in instances, unless I get stunned or it if it a group of mobs, then I will use my aoe taunt since you can cast it while stunned. Other than that, I rarely taunt.Try that and I think you will be surprised how much DPS you can churn out ad how easily you can hold agro.

Thoral

02-26-2008, 12:41 PM

That happens to be the sword I am using. I'll try ditching the AGI line, though I'll feel naked without that extra AE attack to pick up adds and keep things off my warlock wife.

Cullen

02-26-2008, 01:22 PM

I hear what you're saying Brand. It's true that the buckler reversal line gives DPS to our class. The extra DPS certainly does help hold aggro. Even if a guard doesn't use the buckler line, he could go down the strength/intelligence line and use a good two handed sword, which will also add some great DPS and aggro holding; my choice is the spine of skorpsis just now.Despite this, I agree with Angelrage's position. Guards are designed to be main plate tanks; they are supposedly defensive in nature and not natural DPSers. This can be seen easily by the combat arts and various abilities the guard has, not to mention the way SOE has advertised the class from the outset. To fulfill this role, the guard in defensive mode with at least MC/legendary armor and defensive gear should be an incredible meat shield able to hold aggro; all the aggro in an encounter. If the pure DPS classes are outstripping the guard's ability to hold aggro even against adept 3 or master lvl taunts, something is very wrong and unbalanced. I have encountered this problem plenty of times. If the bruiser in the group consistently pulls the aggro and tanks the instance just fine, there is no reason to even have the guard there. I would gladly sacrifice DPS for the ability to use a tower shield (as a real plate tank should) and have my taunts actually work when I use them rather than require reinforcement or rescue to peal aggro away from a high DPSer. True, the guard has several good taunts. At the same time, however, if those taunts are not equivalent in some way to the actual DPS done by individual DPS classes on a per hit basis, they are almost worthless. When the guard is in his defensive mode (the role he is actually designed to play), his aggro holding skills are lacking, which means he adds nothing to the group as the aggro is constantly moved onto higher parsing toons. As it stands right now, the paly can outank us on aggro holding along with any other DPS leather/chain class when we are fulfilling our true role of the defensive tank.It is also interesting that mitigation is now almost worthless. The way to survive is through shield block and avoidance. For a defensive class like the guard (not the zerker, which is not a defensive class), the focus should really be on mitigation; the true strength and essence of the tank is heavy plate armor, not trying to avoid getting hit like a skinny leather wearer. Guards should get a huge bonus on mitigation naturally, whether this comes from specific guard only gear or some buff beyond that existing now doesn't matter too much. To do justice to the class and define it's purpose, the mitigation issue has to be fixed and susbstantially.Work needs to be done on this class without question. Should we sacrifice DPS for truly amazing mitigation and real taunts? I would gladly. If you would not, why are you playing a class designed to be defensive in nature?Also, for raid setups, the buckler reversal line is not such a good choice in my experience.

BoneSmasher

02-26-2008, 01:43 PM

Sadly we ARE forced into a DPS position because tuants are inadequate to hold agro.As far as raid tanking with a buckler, at least in T1, you can tank all of protectors realm with a buckler except the big group and Imzok's Revenge. For those you must use a tower.You can tank all the trash in Tomb of Thuuga with a buckler.I disagree on avoidance however. I find and have found for me as a guardian that mitigation is much more important than pure avoidance, (with the notable exception of the short period where avoidance was competely broken). Even through all of KoS, I tested both a mitigation build and an avoidance build, and have tested it also in the RoK raiding we have done. Mitigation still works better for me. My approach is mitigation plus avoidance, not avoidance as a primary. Berserkers on the other hand depend more on avoidance and it works better for them for some reason. You can read this on the berserker boards. However, berserkers have always held agro based on DPS, whereas historically we held agro based on tuants and reactive hate from getting hit.The taunt mechanic, appears to be somewhat broken in my opinion. If anything, that is should be what is addressed for our class. Not nerfing our DPS or adding some utility to us, but simply fixing the taunt mechanic.However, bear in mind that the big hate adjustment update done some time ago, recuded hate transfer and put a lot more responsibility on hate generating classes to manage their agro than ever before. The days of hitting a couple of taunts and locking down agro are gone.Bearing that in mind, I have adjusted my playstyle to work with the system that we currently have. Is it what the devs said it would be at the beginning of EQ2? No. But it is what it is.It is not just us that has had to adjust. If you have DPS players who have not adjusted to the new hate mechanics, or are not aware of it, then that is not the fault of the tank.I have been playing a gaurdian since Feb of 2005 and like many of you have seen several major changes in game mechanics and in the tank classes. I think the only thing we can do is simply adjust each time and continue on.Pointing out what is truly broken with the class is very useful. However, the resolution that may or may not come is never going to be very fast. So we are left with the single option of overcoming it with the tools we have at hand and waiting to see what is next on the horizon.

Cullen

02-26-2008, 01:52 PM

Except it would not take much at all for SOE to fix it. There has to be a trade off; it should be DPS. If you like your DPS, then why not betray to a zerker? Game balance has to be taken into account here on the aggro issue. Relying on others to hold off their aggro only gets one so far. The game should already be balanced to account for this, particularly when this is supposedly our class's claim to fame. I have to disagree with you on the mit issue; as it stands right now, why take a hit when it can be avoided entirely? No hit equals no damage. Makes no sense for our class because we were designed to take a beating not avoid them. Mit should be specialized for guards to the point that we should uniquely get substantially more than we currently can.

BoneSmasher

02-26-2008, 02:00 PM

Game balance was broken because others had little to do with holding agro. A tank could simply hit tuants and lock down agro without regard to the DPSers. That is not game balance.I am a defensive tank. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The fact that I can DPS while still doing it does not take away anything from me or the class.Pleased re-read your statements about avoidance and mit, since they contradict each other. If you meant, that we should not need to care about avoidance at all, but depend only on heavy armor, I don't disagree. But you stated in the sentence before that, that I was wrong to depend more on mitigation becuase "not taking a hit is better."Actually, from a hate generation standpoint, avoidance is bad for us, becuase hitting hit procs our reactive taunt.

Cullen

02-26-2008, 02:26 PM

My meaning was that, currently, the preference is for avoidance and block rather than mitigation. This was a comment in continuation of angel's initial posting and I apologize for not being clear. Furthermore, as far as plate tanks are concerned, mitigation should rule above avoidance considerably if changes are to be made. As you point out, and rightly so, guards should be getting hit routinely to proc hate. In the current EQ2 world, however, guards that I know (myself included) are going for avoidance and block while ignoring mitigation for the reason I stated; why get hit at all as it currently stands? Now, if the mitigation issue was fixed so that I took far less damage from each hit than is now the case, or there was some other type of worthwhile benefit, I would rely heavily on mitigation as my class should. The hate proc now does not outweigh the chance to avoid an entire hit; it just doesn't proc enough hate to make a difference under high lvl DPS conditions. If mitigation is working for you now, I suggest that you are not selecting the prefered set-up of the tankers that at least I know and am interested in how you're spec'ing it.I have never known a time when taunts locked down aggro. Perhaps I've not played long enough, but as long as I've played, holding aggro with a guard has always been an issue.

Vlahkmaak

02-27-2008, 03:21 PM

I have played a guardian since eq2 beta phase. I HATED that first big guard nerf in the first December of the game. Back then I had about 75% avoidance, 75% mitigation or better raid buffed, and once I tuanted that mob was going NOWHERE. Ok, slightly OP but since all the other OP classes have not been addressed (especially on pvp servers where I now play) why are guards forced into a role they were not originaly desigend to play? We are defensive tanks not offensive tanks like brawlers. We have to substantially alter our gear to tank a RoK instance as QUICKLY as brigs/swashies tanking - which was the original purpose of this post. A pure DPS grp will go through the instances FASTER than a grp with a guardian tanking. That is not saying that guardians lack tanking abilities - it is saying that your average guardian, in a pick up grp, thinking from a defensive stand point, does not understand fully how to adept to a offensive and counter intuitive profile for play. Currently I am set up as an avoidance tank. I get hit on average only 10-15% of the time in Thugga and t1 raids. I dont rely on mitigation but avoidance and resists. I use taunt proc items as I find hold the line a worthless CA/spell. I wish it worked more like bruiser line - procs aggro every time you hit. Back in the day when mit was mit and we could take a larger number of substantially large hits the occassional proc from hold the line was nice but these days when you can get hit for 8k followed by a 6 and 4k hit with 60% mitigation 15.7k hp are next to useless and avoidance is better. My current aa set up is 4-4-8-6-2 STR, 6-4-4-8-2 AGI, 4-4-4-8 or thereabouts, think my math is slightly off, I missed about 5 points somewhere between agi and int. but you can roughly see where they are. The point is though rogues tank these rok instances FASTER than we do in your typical group. This makes play for the average casual guardian harder becuase while he/she is still doing what their class is deigned to do others are tearing trough mobs before they can get hit 2-3 times. Rogues should be stripped of their tanking abilities. Brawlers/crusaders/warriors are the true tanks and no one should be taking our job and we should not be taking their jobs. And for gods sake bring back BEASTLORDS!!! Then we can add a whole new demension to the who can and cannot tank arguement.

Cullen

02-27-2008, 06:29 PM

Agree with you entirely plaguemeister. Let us be the defensive/aggro holding powerhouses we were designed to be. Do not force us to shoehorn ourselves into a scout/assassin role by trying to hap-hazardly and awkwardly attune for DPS and avoidance. Make our mitigation and hate proc actually have some meaning. For those that want DPS, don't play the guard; the guard is really the ONLY purely defensive figther class there is! Pick another profession. As it currently stands, my experience is that the guard is not needed for any instances and paly's are out-tanking us as MT in raids. There must be a fix but all SOE does is [Removed for Content] the guard class.

LygerT

02-28-2008, 05:06 AM

<cite>Cullen wrote:</cite><blockquote>...and paly's are out-tanking us as MT in raids. There must be a fix but all SOE does is [Removed for Content] the guard class.</blockquote>that was a joke right? i guess i'll ask this question as zerks ask themselves this question: do you want to MT only? if yes then stay a guard, if you really believe guards are gimped MT's then you should /q and don't click the start button again. if you want to tank instances perhaps you should betray to a zerk, same goes to the OP of this thread and honestly it seems guards have the same problem we have with versatility. as a zerk i can tank heroics with the best of tanks and dps well enough to have a firm spot in any group. as a guard you have the ability to take the hits from the toughest raid mobs in the game and solidify your position in that aspect. if you want those roles reversed then perhaps that is your answer. truly, i've read some silly comments before but guardians not the top raid tank? gimped? try the shoe on the other foot because you can't be serious...

Vlahkmaak

02-28-2008, 06:19 AM

No one here is saying guardians are gimped. We are saying brigands and swashies can do our job better and faster in ROK instances becuase they can tank spec on STA line and out DPS us thus allowing a group to get through the instances faster. Heck, they dont even have to just out tank us in an instance - they can completely out class us by training the group to the names and FD (as can brawlers) and then kill just the nameds. Try that on your non tinkering guardian. Guardians have to slog through the zone to the mob. Brigand group is already done with the zone in 15 minutes and heading out to Vaults to do the same thing. That is why brigs/swashies are better RoK instance tanks than guardians. Not only can they out DPS us by ALOT they can get the group through the content to the treasure FASTER than we can.

LygerT

02-28-2008, 03:31 PM

i doubt you will ever see that kind of balance in the game again to be honest. it's already been established that the classes will remain mirrored so everyone has a distinct job to do, i actually promoted this idea because i didn't believe in all tanks being equal but now i'm not believing that was the best ideal to want. but as i said as a zerk you can compete with a brig at tanking and still take less damage and finish zones in 15 minutes but you have to weigh what you want more. do you want to be the ultimate epic tank? or do you want to be the ultimate heroic tank? it's obvious you can't be both anymore and asking to be both will not only have the zerks be jealous but despise you as well, not to mention the other plate tank classes. i feel my space has been encroached long enough, our guard even wants to try holding me off in lyceum/HoS(even though he has no chance in the world) while everyone is happily nuking away and brigs have turned into pure aggro [Removed for Content]. why can't we have our time to shine? the game has turned into a selfish [Removed for Content] contest where everyone wants to take their hand at other peoples main job and it becomes less fun by the day it seems. this is not the fault of the game but due to the evolution of the players in wanting to be less reliant on others to get things done, personally i don't fault people for wanting that as i was never fond of the idea of forcing people to rely on others to do a job. what this would require to invoke a change in the mentality of the game is diversity within each character class so they could do more than a single job in the game, it's what the majority seem to want these days otherwise the WW population is doomed to decline i feel, as has already begun.

Vlahkmaak

02-29-2008, 05:36 AM

Switched to buckler spec and did COA today with a SK, Dirge, Necro, Assassin, warden, and me as Guard MT. AA set up was roughly (went for max mele crit/DA/DPS).STR 4-4-8STA 4-6-8-8-2WIS 4-4-8INT 4-1Best parse was 2.3k. I usually parse 2.8 dual wielding. I switched between epic and NSS to see which gave a higher DPS. AT one point I switched to dual wielding epic and Anaphylaxis and DPS actually went back up. Stats were -DPS 50% Crit chance 46%DA 82%In short, I dont see how buckler is better than a STR/AGI/INT build I run for MT raids and dual wielding in instances. Better avoidance when needed and better DPS when needed. Only thing I liked about buckler line was the riposte chance. I surely don't see how anyone parse 3k like this. Dual wielding in my experience is better DPS parse. Str was about 860 today I think. I will run this AA set up again in guild grp with a inqy/zerk/coercer/wiz/dirge (or warden) to see how I aprse. FP pvp sever limits classes I can choose from. Also, buckler line was better on last guy than Tower shield (more dps with buckler compared to tower) and he is the only guy I won't dual wield on due to his potential for massive spike damage. Rest of the zone I can dual wield offensively. All CA and buffs are ad3 or better for t8. I have masters for a few of my big hits: decimate/exact strike/retaliatory strike/ and 1 debuff hit.

evilgamer

04-18-2008, 01:43 PM

<cite>Angelrage wrote:</cite><blockquote> Because monks and swashbucklers are tanking ROK instances with no problem, </blockquote>Um monks/bruisers are part of the fighter archetype, the same archytpe guardians are in.My bruiser gets taunts (not AA taunts either), they are tanks, avoidence tanks, but tanks none the less. We get more DPS then guardians, but you have better taunts and take hit better, you are also needed on raids. bruisers lol forget it..Now why a DPS class like swash is tanking, that boggles me too.

evilgamer

04-18-2008, 01:54 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>. The point is though rogues tank these rok instances FASTER than we do in your typical group. This makes play for the average casual guardian harder becuase while he/she is still doing what their class is deigned to do others are tearing trough mobs before they can get hit 2-3 times. Rogues should be stripped of their tanking abilities. Brawlers/crusaders/warriors are the true tanks and no one should be taking our job and we should not be taking their jobs.</blockquote>100% agreement.

LygerT

04-18-2008, 02:24 PM

i'd have to guess they only still retain those abilities because of those few encounters like tacticians armor and P'tasa that require non fighter tanks out of some sick idea from some masochistic dev.

Wilin

04-18-2008, 03:29 PM

The ability to tank instances?No, they retain that ability because everyone has AA mirrors and they can easily store a tank spec on them that allows them to tank instances easily without a fighter. When a rogue wants to do an instance, they don't need a fighter, they just need a trip to town and a click on the mirror. I have an 80 brig alt myself and our primary brig tanks for instances almost daily, sometimes when there aren't any fighters around, sometimes because he's just farming gear.

Ryick

04-18-2008, 10:06 PM

I agree with Vlahkmaak in the fact that we should be standing out when it comes to tanking anything in this game. What I mean is if they want to give Scouts the ability to tank, I say NP but if they had to chose between us and them will are mit and HP should count for the deciding chose but it doesn't so that is why are class will be useless, unless you're the Guild MT or MA.RyickLeader of Opus Dei

LygerT

04-18-2008, 11:17 PM

<cite>Ryick wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with Vlahkmaak in the fact that we should be standing out when it comes to tanking anything in this game. What I mean is if they want to give Scouts the ability to tank, I say NP but if they had to chose between us and them will are mit and HP should count for the deciding chose but it doesn't so that is why are class will be useless, unless you're the Guild MT or MA.RyickLeader of Opus Dei</blockquote>you can always betray to zerk, i've said it before and i'll say it again.. zerk is a better instance tank and guard is a better raid tank.

salle

04-22-2008, 02:30 AM

Huh? monks doing instances faster than a guard? Then for heroic tanking: 1 Get AA mirror and save your current build.2 Respec into a full offensive specc with str 4483, sta 44882 int 48822. oh and 5 points in all slaughtering line ab ilities + end line of course. 3 Get offensive gear. As a guard we can hit about 80 DA and 45 crit without too much hastle if you do all quest lines in RoK, and about +40 power regen if needed. And almost no real difference in your survivability atleast not for heroic content.4 Ignore the taunt buttons unless they're the only ability up, either while pulling due to range or all other abilities are down. You get aggro from both and DPS will kill the mob quicker when you're 1/4th of the group dps.5 Read up on all your skills and think out casting orders for solo mobs, group encounters and adds. Also consider how short fights differs from long fights. and see to it you keep Acceleration Strike down at all times. 6 Consta pull, but stop this after first whipe (unless it wasn't due to your pulling.) But slowly start to increase the pace again. Giving people 10-5 seconds to temp-buff up before nameds is also a good idea.7 If it's with totaly unknown people start in defensive stance, but switch either to a lower tier def-stance after a while and then off stance. TJust to see if there is an impact on your survivability with this perticular group. Stances can be switched back in a second.Only place you'll miss ae ability is in Vaults, which is just a horrible place use your tower/agi spec when going there.

Vlahkmaak

04-22-2008, 03:31 AM

<cite>salle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Huh? monks doing instances faster than a guard?Then for heroic tanking:1 Get AA mirror and save your current build.2 Respec into a full offensive specc with str 4483, sta 44882 int 48822. oh and 5 points in all slaughtering line ab ilities + end line of course.3 Get offensive gear. As a guard we can hit about 80 DA and 45 crit without too much hastle if you do all quest lines in RoK, and about +40 power regen if needed. And almost no real difference in your survivability atleast not for heroic content.4 Ignore the taunt buttons unless they're the only ability up, either while pulling due to range or all other abilities are down. You get aggro from both and DPS will kill the mob quicker when you're 1/4th of the group dps.5 Read up on all your skills and think out casting orders for solo mobs, group encounters and adds. Also consider how short fights differs from long fights. and see to it you keep Acceleration Strike down at all times. 6 Consta pull, but stop this after first whipe (unless it wasn't due to your pulling.) But slowly start to increase the pace again. Giving people 10-5 seconds to temp-buff up before nameds is also a good idea.7 If it's with totaly unknown people start in defensive stance, but switch either to a lower tier def-stance after a while and then off stance. TJust to see if there is an impact on your survivability with this perticular group. Stances can be switched back in a second.Only place you'll miss ae ability is in Vaults, which is just a horrible place use your tower/agi spec when going there. </blockquote>I am buckler spec'd for raiding nd pvp. vualts is much easier than COA in my opinion - less things to kill inbetween names and all. The reason Monks/brawlers are faster in these instances is that lil FD button - they can train to every name, FD, fight off the 1-2 adds then kill the name: Rinse and repeat through the entire zone. My crit is typically 55-63% depending on gear and I can top my DA at 85-87%. Once I get the +7 DA trousers and PvP sword for another 3% I am gonna be over 90-95% all the time DA. Crit may drop to 55% when speced full DA though. Either way, guards cannot FD through the trash - there for Monks/bruisers will always be able to do these zones faster. The original intent here is to state that rogues should not be tanking any instances - only tanks: warriors, crusader, brawlers shoud be tanking any instance ad I expect heroic dungeons to be sufficiently difficult to prvent the most twinked rogue from tanking them.

Rahatmattata

04-23-2008, 05:21 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point is though rogues tank these rok instances FASTER than <strike>we</strike> I do in <strike>your</strike> my typical group.</blockquote>

Vlahkmaak

04-24-2008, 03:17 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point is though rogues tank these rok instances FASTER than <strike>we</strike> I do in <strike>your</strike> my typical group.</blockquote></blockquote>Trolling and chat baiting is a violation of the SOE user agreement - if you ahving noting constructive to add to the thread please don't add anything at all Rahatmattata.

Rahatmattata

04-25-2008, 05:00 AM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point is though rogues tank these rok instances FASTER than <strike>we</strike> I do in <strike>your</strike> my typical group.</blockquote></blockquote>Trolling and chat baiting is a violation of the SOE user agreement - if you ahving noting constructive to add to the thread please don't add anything at all Rahatmattata.</blockquote>Dunno what you're talking about. Simply correcting your silly statement for you.I tanked maiden's in just a hair under 20min the other night. Show me a rogue that can do better.In layman's term: speak for yourself.

LygerT

04-25-2008, 03:04 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point is though rogues tank these rok instances FASTER than <strike>we</strike> I do in <strike>your</strike> my typical group.</blockquote></blockquote>Trolling and chat baiting is a violation of the SOE user agreement - if you ahving noting constructive to add to the thread please don't add anything at all Rahatmattata.</blockquote>he was correcting your statement speaking for the class as a WHOLE, which no one here should ever do anyways because you are not everyone.

Ryick

04-25-2008, 10:16 PM

I think there are a few peeps missing the point. The point is here that scout classes are able to tank the ROK names witch eliminates our Jobs as Every Day Tanks. Now I am not talking about the speed of group's progress in any of these zones. all I am, and do mean me, is a scout is able to stand up in front of a name that he should not be able to get in front of without the healers going (ummm hay fruitcake let the tank in the group do his job and stop making us work so hard to keep you alive) and for those of you that know me the fruitcake comment should be funny for it is an inside joke with my guild not directed at any scout at all. I am not saying that our, my class is gimped in any way. I love being a guard and knowing I can get in front of anything, but should a chain wearing class be able to do the same thing that a plate wearing class can? I my opinion I think not.RyickLeader of Opus Dei

Rahatmattata

04-26-2008, 06:22 AM

I haven't had any troubles at all getting a job as MT for groups in any tier or any zone (at least on my server, AB). I'm sorry but I'm just not buying it. Can rogues tank some stuff? Sure. Can some rogues tank as good or better than some guardians? Sure why not... depends on the player and gear. On the other hand, can I out-dps some rogues? Sure. Can I tank better than most rogues? Yes, I have yet to meet a rogue that can tank with the ease and finess I can on my guardian.We guardians have it pretty sweet right now. I see no issue in rogues being able to tank some stuff. Heck, you get a fully debuffed mob and some good healers and support and a wizard can tank. Does that put guardians out of a job? Not at all IMO. Same deal as: just because I can out-dps some rogues, I rarely if ever get picked over a rogue to fill a dps slot, and visa-versa. I'm sorry, but I just disagree.I'm very very satisfied with the guardian class, and I also play a brigand and have tanked end game zones with him during eof cap. Rogues (and other classes that *can* tank) have no tools for spike damage. Rogues have no tools for snap aggro besides burst dps (if their timers are up). Rogues (at least brigs, dunno 'bout swash) have no tools to protect their group mates besides beg for mercy, unless I'm sorely mistaken. A rogue vs a guard 1-on-1 encounter... depending on variables, it might be equal.. maybe a rogue can even do a little bettter. Start getting some adds, start taking some spike damage, aggro starts slipping and bouncing.... well that's when a guard locks it down and a rogue hits evac.

Ryick

04-26-2008, 05:58 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I haven't had any troubles at all getting a job as MT for groups in any tier or any zone (at least on my server, AB). I'm sorry but I'm just not buying it. Can rogues tank some stuff? Sure. Can some rogues tank as good or better than some guardians? Sure why not... depends on the player and gear. On the other hand, can I out-dps some rogues? Sure. Can I tank better than most rogues? Yes, I have yet to meet a rogue that can tank with the ease and finess I can on my guardian.We guardians have it pretty sweet right now. I see no issue in rogues being able to tank some stuff. Heck, you get a fully debuffed mob and some good healers and support and a wizard can tank. Does that put guardians out of a job? Not at all IMO. Same deal as: just because I can out-dps some rogues, I rarely if ever get picked over a rogue to fill a dps slot, and visa-versa. I'm sorry, but I just disagree.I'm very very satisfied with the guardian class, and I also play a brigand and have tanked end game zones with him during eof cap. Rogues (and other classes that *can* tank) have no tools for spike damage. Rogues have no tools for snap aggro besides burst dps (if their timers are up). Rogues (at least brigs, dunno 'bout swash) have no tools to protect their group mates besides beg for mercy, unless I'm sorely mistaken. A rogue vs a guard 1-on-1 encounter... depending on variables, it might be equal.. maybe a rogue can even do a little bettter. Start getting some adds, start taking some spike damage, aggro starts slipping and bouncing.... well that's when a guard locks it down and a rogue hits evac.</blockquote>This is one of the best reply I have read yet and you are not wrong on anything you have stated here bro. I too love my guard and have NP finding groups to go out I get stuff done. I still say for the average Tank and the average scout witch I am pretty sure we are talking about, that (again in my opinion) they should not be able to tank the ROK names, that is all. If they a raid or PVP fabled gear out then ya I think I should be NP but the mit is 1 to 2% off ours which is really close if not more on some occasions.Well again really good reply.RyickLeader of Opus Dei

Pimmy

05-09-2008, 02:03 AM

This thread still going?I can't believe some halfbrainer claimed on this thread that SK's have more DPS than Guardians. *laff*Guardians are better at EVERYTHING compared to SK. Devs please. Hit Guardians with a nerf bat and lets see them share the SK pain. Go cry your mother somewhere else with real reasons. Also EQ2 wasn't meant for PvP and they never should have opened any PvP servers.-SK-

LygerT

05-09-2008, 07:32 PM

i'm gonna roll a brigand so i can tank better./sarcasm

Barre706

05-10-2008, 02:55 PM

<cite>Pimmy wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread still going?I can't believe some halfbrainer claimed on this thread that SK's have more DPS than Guardians. *laff*Guardians are better at EVERYTHING compared to SK. Devs please. Hit Guardians with a nerf bat and lets see them share the SK pain. Go cry your mother somewhere else with real reasons. Also EQ2 wasn't meant for PvP and they never should have opened any PvP servers.-SK-</blockquote> That's because you stink at an SK, SK' do serious DPS if they gear and spec for it. Guards are gimped, unlike most classes they have one true roll, a tank. If you spec and gear for a tank then your basically unable to provide anything else to a group. Can Guards do DPS, of course they can, but in gearing and spec'ing for DPS, they [Removed for Content] themselves as tanks. DPS guards can't hold agro or take damage like a tank. A Gurads lack of versatility is why there are so few. Guilds need one or two, never more, so if your a Guard, your prospects of guilding are slim, your just not in demand because there too many out there for too few jobs. In a 24 man raid you have 6 to 8 healers, 2 to 4 CC & support, 10 to 12 DPS, and 1 Tank. I'd like to see someone blow that off as a non-problem. You guards out there that have flamed original post, you in a guild? you the main tank? well good for you. There are those who can't get into a decent guild because the tank spot is filled. Now with all the new changes, DPS scouts have a much easier time and provide much better DPS, so it may take a few extra heals, fact is it can be done and without a tank. The Dev's do need to rethink this aspect. The original point is extremely valid.

TuinalOfTheNexus

05-11-2008, 09:47 AM

<blockquote> That's because you stink at an SK, SK' do serious DPS if they gear and spec for it. </blockquote>Wrong.<blockquote> Guards are gimped</blockquote>Wrong.<blockquote>If you spec and gear for a tank then your basically unable to provide anything else to a group. </blockquote>Wrong. <blockquote>in gearing and spec'ing for DPS, they [Removed for Content] themselves as tanks. DPS guards can't hold agro or take damage like a tank.</blockquote>Wrong.<blockquote> A Gurads lack of versatility is why there are so few.</blockquote>Wrong.<blockquote>In a 24 man raid you have 6 to 8 healers, 2 to 4 CC & support, 10 to 12 DPS, and 1 Tank</blockquote>Wrong.<blockquote>There are those who can't get into a decent guild because the tank spot is filled. </blockquote>There are also those who can't get into a decent guild because they suck at playing the class or fundamentally don't understand how to gear/spec it (see above misconceptions re. dps and aggro / survivability).<blockquote> Now with all the new changes, DPS scouts have a much easier time and provide much better DPS, so it may take a few extra heals</blockquote>Wrong.<blockquote>The Dev's do need to rethink this aspect. The original point is extremely valid.</blockquote>Wrong.So in summary - can a scout tank heroic content? Yes. Can they put out substantially more dps than an equivalently geared Guardian while tanking? No. Can they hold aggro better than a well-played Guardian? No. Do they have better survivability than a fully-offensive Guardian? No. Do they have better group buffs than a Guardian? No. Can they do all these better than a badly played, badly geared Guardian? Hell yeah. But balancing the game around bad players is stupid.

Disruptavior

05-29-2008, 11:29 AM

I 'm adding this reply to agree emphatically with the original posters comments. Just the other day I grouped with Raacs in Vaults and Maidens. He is a lvl 80 Brig and he tanked it beautifully - completely out dps'ing me - severely. No tank needed if you know a nicely equipped Brig who knows what he's doing. I just converted my 78 Zerk to a Guardian - I'm finding the same issues - Tanks are becoming useless and as I do not raid - what's the point? My question is - do the DEVS read these? Don't they want to keep the game alive as people leave in waves to go play other new games? Mischeviouz / Nagafen

Tiberuis

05-29-2008, 12:42 PM

<cite>Barre706 wrote:</cite><blockquote> That's because you stink at an SK, SK' do serious DPS if they gear and spec for it. Guards are gimped, unlike most classes they have one true roll, a tank. If you spec and gear for a tank then your basically unable to provide anything else to a group. Can Guards do DPS, of course they can, but in gearing and spec'ing for DPS, they [Removed for Content] themselves as tanks. DPS guards can't hold agro or take damage like a tank. A Gurads lack of versatility is why there are so few. Guilds need one or two, never more, so if your a Guard, your prospects of guilding are slim, your just not in demand because there too many out there for too few jobs. In a 24 man raid you have 6 to 8 healers, 2 to 4 CC & support, 10 to 12 DPS, and 1 Tank. I'd like to see someone blow that off as a non-problem. You guards out there that have flamed original post, you in a guild? you the main tank? well good for you. There are those who can't get into a decent guild because the tank spot is filled. Now with all the new changes, DPS scouts have a much easier time and provide much better DPS, so it may take a few extra heals, fact is it can be done and without a tank. The Dev's do need to rethink this aspect. The original point is extremely valid.</blockquote>You have got to be kidding me. Roll youself an SK Barre, play him to 80 ROK content, and then come back and read your post. I don't mean Raid content - no one in thier right mind is going to invite an SK to MT an ROK Raid Zone over another plate tank class anyways, so don't even bother trying. I know, my main is an SK.ROK Guardians can tank the pants off an SK. And ROK Guardians can DPS the pants off an SK. I mean, seriously, It is NOT EVEN CLOSE. NO CONTEST. So give your head a shake, and think about what you are saying here.P.S. I'm not here to flame the Guards. I think the Devs did a good job on the class, and the Guards in my guild are AWESOME. Guards are truly the end-game MT champions of EQ2, bar none.

therodge

05-29-2008, 04:12 PM

<cite>Barre706 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pimmy wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread still going?I can't believe some halfbrainer claimed on this thread that SK's have more DPS than Guardians. *laff*Guardians are better at EVERYTHING compared to SK. Devs please. Hit Guardians with a nerf bat and lets see them share the SK pain. Go cry your mother somewhere else with real reasons. Also EQ2 wasn't meant for PvP and they never should have opened any PvP servers.-SK-</blockquote> That's because you stink at an SK, SK' do serious DPS if they gear and spec for it. Guards are gimped, unlike most classes they have one true roll, a tank. If you spec and gear for a tank then your basically unable to provide anything else to a group. Can Guards do DPS, of course they can, but in gearing and spec'ing for DPS, they [Removed for Content] themselves as tanks. DPS guards can't hold agro or take damage like a tank. A Gurads lack of versatility is why there are so few. Guilds need one or two, never more, so if your a Guard, your prospects of guilding are slim, your just not in demand because there too many out there for too few jobs. In a 24 man raid you have 6 to 8 healers, 2 to 4 CC & support, 10 to 12 DPS, and 1 Tank. I'd like to see someone blow that off as a non-problem. You guards out there that have flamed original post, you in a guild? you the main tank? well good for you. There are those who can't get into a decent guild because the tank spot is filled. Now with all the new changes, DPS scouts have a much easier time and provide much better DPS, so it may take a few extra heals, fact is it can be done and without a tank. The Dev's do need to rethink this aspect. The original point is extremely valid.</blockquote><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/11271-guard-dps-29.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...ard-dps-29.html</a>i suggest you simply look at those charts , this guard was also tanking this zone when he did this, so a guardian zw 5k in a teir 2 raid zone WHILE tanking is gimping themselves, nice id like to see the wicked dps sks are putting out rofl

Margen

06-11-2008, 08:13 PM

<cite>Barre706 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pimmy wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread still going?I can't believe some halfbrainer claimed on this thread that SK's have more DPS than Guardians. *laff*Guardians are better at EVERYTHING compared to SK. Devs please. Hit Guardians with a nerf bat and lets see them share the SK pain. Go cry your mother somewhere else with real reasons. Also EQ2 wasn't meant for PvP and they never should have opened any PvP servers.-SK-</blockquote> That's because you stink at an SK, SK' do serious DPS if they gear and spec for it. Guards are gimped, unlike most classes they have one true roll, a tank. If you spec and gear for a tank then your basically unable to provide anything else to a group. Can Guards do DPS, of course they can, but in gearing and spec'ing for DPS, they [Removed for Content] themselves as tanks. DPS guards can't hold agro or take damage like a tank. A Gurads lack of versatility is why there are so few. Guilds need one or two, never more, so if your a Guard, your prospects of guilding are slim, your just not in demand because there too many out there for too few jobs. In a 24 man raid you have 6 to 8 healers, 2 to 4 CC & support, 10 to 12 DPS, and 1 Tank. I'd like to see someone blow that off as a non-problem. You guards out there that have flamed original post, you in a guild? you the main tank? well good for you. There are those who can't get into a decent guild because the tank spot is filled. Now with all the new changes, DPS scouts have a much easier time and provide much better DPS, so it may take a few extra heals, fact is it can be done and without a tank. The Dev's do need to rethink this aspect. The original point is extremely valid.</blockquote>Ok another SK thats going to hammer your totally uninformed and to be blunt idiotic statment. Guardians are owning us in this expansion in every factor of tanking, avoidance, hps, agro and yes dps. The tanking balance is completly on its head this expansion and its casuing Beserkers to betray and SK to just throw up their hands and quit, look on the SK board if you don't believe me.Don't get me wrong, I think Guardians should have the best surviale skills for tanks, and I think they should have strong agro tools, but the simple fact is that guilds are running with Guardians for both the MT and OT role and its causing major issues in the fighter community. Paladins can compete for the OT role due to amends and holy ground but don't have the oh dodo skills that a guardian has.As for SKs, we've lost dps this expansion and if we take the largest hit in dps when going into defensive, and thus we have major agro problems.Don't get me wrong, I am not hammering Guardians, just had to respond to this silly post. I just want to see SK's get some substantial improvments, I would settle for increased dps and agro tools so I could at least compete for the OT role. Its sad when I have someone in my group say "your a heck of tank ... for a SK", and yes I've heard that.As for Swashy/Brigand tanking, I play a swashy and I agree they should of never gotten the tanking tools. The classes are very good dps/debuff classes and thats where they should shine. Not in the role of tanks. If Tanks where given swashy dps, their would be a huge outcry I am sure.

Ep

06-12-2008, 02:23 AM

avatar gear'd sk does more dps than me(avatar'd guard). course sk is in mage group w/ dps gear on to do that, not much ot'in going on there for trash. then again i have my dps gear on too. my 4k bards are making me look bad tho, so complain about them instead, derail!

BoneSmasher

06-13-2008, 09:18 AM

I really try to keep my responses positive, but I am overwhelmed by this thread.This thread is not about raiding, it is about tanking heroic content.If you, as a guardian, cannot out tank any scout in the game; quite frankly you need to "learn to play"I have yet to find any scout that can out tank me, I don't care how well geared they are. They just don't have the tanking tools to handle the situations that come up.Sure they can tank instances. Better than a well equipped, well played Guardian. Nope.If you can't get a group with a guardian to run instances, then maybe you should consider that you might not have a very good reputation as a tank.I dare not ever put myself to LFG in channel becuase I would get swarmed by invites.I get tells all the time I am on line from people looking for a tank for zones.And as far as SKs and Pallys go, SOE needs to give them some serious help. They are great classes that are really not being treated right by SOE.Our bards are hitting 2-3K zonewides in instances. I say nerf them! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Ep

06-13-2008, 03:25 PM

Yes! more bard nerf bandwagon. are ppl comparing mythical scout tanking to like, a non raiding guard? if so then yea a mythical scout tanking looks a lot better in group and on paper. mythical scout has access to 2x guard dps for aggro and raid gear to tank. I mean thats easy enough to tell a difference.

Rahatmattata

06-13-2008, 04:17 PM

What is a scout, mythical or not, going to do when his HP is seriously spiking and the healers are getting behind? Die? Evac? Those are about the only 2 options.

evilgamer

06-13-2008, 07:01 PM

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes! more bard nerf bandwagon. are ppl comparing mythical scout tanking to like, a non raiding guard? if so then yea a mythical scout tanking looks a lot better in group and on paper. mythical scout has access to 2x guard dps for aggro and raid gear to tank. I mean thats easy enough to tell a difference.</blockquote>Well given that raid generally roll with 6 or more scouts and 2-3 tanks, its easy to see why scout tanking is getting out of whack.How can tanks gear up, when they cant get in on a raid to do so?

BoneSmasher

06-13-2008, 08:24 PM

I was kidding about bards. Ours are great and they do very good DPS. None of our guildmembers have mythicals.My point, is that the stuff that drops in instances and that you can get from questing is all you need to dominate the T8 heroics instances.

Morgane

06-16-2008, 01:48 PM

<cite>Kaleyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>He does have a valid point.My Monk was my first toon to level 80, I was tanking CoA and VOES at 74, at 80 there isn't a heroic instance I can't tank on my Monk.As my Guard I can tank the same heroic instance stuff but I'm also the raid MT...can't do that on my Monk.My Pally can do everything my Guard can do, just the raid MT'ing is a tad harder for survivability but aggro wise it's a lot easier.Before RoK on my Ranger (Ranger is still 70 so as I level him up going to see if I can't tank RoK heroic instances) I could tank all heroic instances as well...yup, that's right, a Ranger...so it doesn't even take a Rogue to tank heroic instances.</blockquote>Wow. Not to dereail the topic or anything... I have a level 79 Monk and I have trouble tanking in RoK. Granted, I have very limited experience tanking and came to this forum to get some ideas and tips for my level 44 Guardian. But now I gotta ask... what am I doing wrong with my Monk??? Is it my gear? I'm specced for DPS with my Wis and Sta lines all the way and more in Int and Agi, so maybe that's it?

LygerT

06-17-2008, 03:03 AM

<cite>Morgane@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kaleyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>He does have a valid point.My Monk was my first toon to level 80, I was tanking CoA and VOES at 74, at 80 there isn't a heroic instance I can't tank on my Monk.As my Guard I can tank the same heroic instance stuff but I'm also the raid MT...can't do that on my Monk.My Pally can do everything my Guard can do, just the raid MT'ing is a tad harder for survivability but aggro wise it's a lot easier.Before RoK on my Ranger (Ranger is still 70 so as I level him up going to see if I can't tank RoK heroic instances) I could tank all heroic instances as well...yup, that's right, a Ranger...so it doesn't even take a Rogue to tank heroic instances.</blockquote>Wow. Not to dereail the topic or anything... I have a level 79 Monk and I have trouble tanking in RoK. Granted, I have very limited experience tanking and came to this forum to get some ideas and tips for my level 44 Guardian. But now I gotta ask... what am I doing wrong with my Monk??? Is it my gear? I'm specced for DPS with my Wis and Sta lines all the way and more in Int and Agi, so maybe that's it? </blockquote>he's either got extremely good healers backing him up or he's full of himself, perhaps both.

Wildfury77

06-19-2008, 02:52 AM

I'm a 79 monk, decent legendary gear + tanking specced......<ul><li>To the OP ---> Of course monks can tank RoK instances!! We are TANKS!! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></li><li>To the guy that claims to have tanked CoA at lvl 74.......I very much doubt it!! Its unlikely u could hold agro from the lvl 78-80 (Orange) nameds or even do effective DPS on them!! (Which is a major component of monk agro). PERHAPS if u had a swashies hate transfer, a lvl 80 templar, lvl 80 mystic and lvl 80 warden backing u up it may be possible but with that setup a dirge could MT it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></li></ul>P.S. for referrence i could MT COA at lvl 77 (monk) once i had Quarrelsome gear equipped and nameds became yellow con <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kage8

06-19-2008, 07:13 AM

Why is this tread still going? I mean come on guardians.I have an 80 zerker and 80 guardian. I also have a t8 sk and t7 pally. Im farmiliar with the plate tanks. I do agree this is a valid point about the scouts tanking but really let it go.And it really makes the guardians look bad to be the ones complaining about this. Frigin uber class. Let it go already. Try playing a zerker or a sk.And again i agree scouts should never tank and it make me mad too, just dont wanna hear crap from this class. You got it good.PS: and i did not bump this tread, it was on the top when i posted...=0)

Windowlicker

06-19-2008, 12:27 PM

I'll say outright that I haven't read every post in this thread, but I thought I'd throw my 2cp in.Right now there are a large number of balance issues in the game, and it's generally due to the shortcomings of a developer that frankly needs either more help, or to be replaced with a decorative doorstop.- Plate classes are only marginally better at taking hits then a number of other classes. They should be brick walls that have limited DPS.- Plate tanks are doing far too much damage currently, and relying on this damage to hold aggro. Whereas they should be relying on abilities that build hate.- Tanking is far too buff dependant. IE) Hate augmenting buffs that are required to hold hate against some classes.- DPS classes are able to take hits far too well. I'll be the first to admit my Warlock is tanking things he shouldn't be.- DPS classes are out of whack. Mages do to little damage, Scouts do too much. And Tanks are right up there with them on the parse frequently.It was said a few times in this thread already. Plate armor is nothing more then decorative pixels at the moment. Really there isn't a huge difference in the hits you'll be taking in plate, and the hits a Monk or Brusier will be taking in Leather.Is it unplayable? No. But the class Dev needs someone to smack his hand and straighten him out. I'm not sure exactly what he's doing with his days, but it's sure not looking at class balance.

evilgamer

06-19-2008, 12:55 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>. Really there isn't a huge difference in the hits you'll be taking in plate, and the hits a Monk or Brusier will be taking in Leather.</blockquote>Um no. My bruiser in his 60's and my SK is in his 40's.The Sk' defineatly takes hits better, specially with a sheild equipped.When they solo, the bruiser always runs out of hps before he does power and the Sk always runs out of power before hitpoints. Remind you both classes can heal themselves and that brawlers get a hp bonus and crusaders get a power bonus.Brawlers will never tank epics because of the contested avoidence thing. Sheild avoidence is not contested.The problem I have with rouges that have avoidence equal to my bruiser and higher mitigation of chain tanking.Giving rogues Tanking AA's was a mistake imo. I want to know where my scout like dps is , if rouges can tank like fighters.

LygerT

06-19-2008, 02:16 PM

hes referriing to avoidance tanking, the only reason plate wearers tank better than a wizard is because they have twice as much health and the block/parry/defense to do so, its not so much about the type of armor we wear anymore or even how big of a shield we put up but the stats that each of those carry. put a wizard in with the same avoidance and health pool and even a wizard could tank just fine is what he is saying.

evilgamer

06-19-2008, 04:42 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>hes referriing to avoidance tanking, the only reason plate wearers tank better than a wizard is because they have twice as much health and the block/parry/defense to do so, its not so much about the type of armor we wear anymore or even how big of a shield we put up but the stats that each of those carry. My battle speced plate wearing inquistor tanks almost as good as my Sk does, the only thing he doesnt have that the SK does is parry and a higher health pool.My dirge tanks far worse then my inquistor and he has the parry skill. Plate does matter. My dirge is sitting around 38% mit in treasured chain gear. My inq is sitting around 53% mit in treasured plate.put a wizard in with the same avoidance and health pool and even a wizard could tank just fine is what he is saying. </blockquote>

LygerT

06-19-2008, 06:29 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>hes referriing to avoidance tanking, the only reason plate wearers tank better than a wizard is because they have twice as much health and the block/parry/defense to do so, its not so much about the type of armor we wear anymore or even how big of a shield we put up but the stats that each of those carry. My battle speced plate wearing inquistor tanks almost as good as my Sk does, the only thing he doesnt have that the SK does is parry and a higher health pool.My dirge tanks far worse then my inquistor and he has the parry skill. Plate does matter. My dirge is sitting around 38% mit in treasured chain gear. My inq is sitting around 53% mit in treasured plate.put a wizard in with the same avoidance and health pool and even a wizard could tank just fine is what he is saying. </blockquote></blockquote>i was more referring to with decent armor levels, not just some treasured quest rewards, its obviously a little more extreme saying a wizard in 1800 mit is going to tank as well as a plate wearing guard with 6k mit but a chain scout with 3500 mit will not be taking much harder hits than a plate tank with 6k mit. usually it appears that way because scouts have half the health as a buffed MT does. it's more about avoiding the hits altogether now than mitigating them anyways.

Enoe

06-21-2008, 09:59 AM

I read it all and i dont undurstand you at allGuards are best tanks if geared for tanking and with proper buffs.Guardians can be dps same with good gear and good buffs.Where im going is: i can raid tank with high avoidance/mitigation or i can go grp instances offstance dualwield and no scout will tank there better/faster/safer then i do.CoA ofc non healer runs always in offstance dw - my dps up to 8k on nameds - mostly takes 15-17 minSo yea scouts can do little bit of tanking but remember guard can do a little scout dps as well. Think outside box find your ways of playing. You dont have to be plate turtle only <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

LygerT

06-21-2008, 02:10 PM

it's just the OPs mentality, stuck on using a huge board and tanking defensively to blue con mobs. yes we are tanks but we also have the responsibility to do our job as effectively as possible, and that is why we have offensive stances as well..

tikasa

07-13-2008, 12:50 PM

<cite>Ryick@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think there are a few peeps missing the point. The point is here that scout classes are able to tank the ROK names witch eliminates our Jobs as Every Day Tanks. Now I am not talking about the speed of group's progress in any of these zones. all I am, and do mean me, is a scout is able to stand up in front of a name that he should not be able to get in front of without the healers going (ummm hay fruitcake let the tank in the group do his job and stop making us work so hard to keep you alive) and for those of you that know me the fruitcake comment should be funny for it is an inside joke with my guild not directed at any scout at all. I am not saying that our, my class is gimped in any way. I love being a guard and knowing I can get in front of anything, but should a chain wearing class be able to do the same thing that a plate wearing class can? I my opinion I think not.RyickLeader of Opus Dei</blockquote> Have you ever played a Brig or a Swashie set up to tank? Stamina line with great avoidance along with VP gear?? I can tank any named on my Swashie when I change my AA to tanking and still can out DPS any warrior. I have a Zerk as well and I used to love her until my usual group told me it was easier to heal the Swashie ... My Zerk is set up to tank .. not DPS.

convict

07-13-2008, 01:33 PM

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ryick@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think there are a few peeps missing the point. The point is here that scout classes are able to tank the ROK names witch eliminates our Jobs as Every Day Tanks. Now I am not talking about the speed of group's progress in any of these zones. all I am, and do mean me, is a scout is able to stand up in front of a name that he should not be able to get in front of without the healers going (ummm hay fruitcake let the tank in the group do his job and stop making us work so hard to keep you alive) and for those of you that know me the fruitcake comment should be funny for it is an inside joke with my guild not directed at any scout at all. I am not saying that our, my class is gimped in any way. I love being a guard and knowing I can get in front of anything, but should a chain wearing class be able to do the same thing that a plate wearing class can? I my opinion I think not.RyickLeader of Opus Dei</blockquote> Have you ever played a Brig or a Swashie set up to tank? Stamina line with great avoidance along with VP gear?? I can tank any named on my Swashie when I change my AA to tanking and still can out DPS any warrior. I have a Zerk as well and I used to love her until my usual group told me it was easier to heal the Swashie ... My Zerk is set up to tank .. not DPS.</blockquote>I wish SoE would fix the above statement before pushing more exp's out the door..

TuinalOfTheNexus

07-13-2008, 08:45 PM

Is the zerker VP geared tho?It's a bit like complaining a VP geared Illusionist outdamages a legendary-geared Wizard. Of course they do, that's the whole reason people raid and gear up their character.If your Zerk is equivalently geared and your Swash tanks better whilst parsing higher, you're flat out bad at playing a Berserker.

LygerT

07-14-2008, 05:13 AM

i'm calling BS on the swashy out tanking the zerker.

Sylvana

07-24-2008, 08:09 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'm calling BS on the swashy out tanking the zerker. </blockquote>Agreed

Ep

07-25-2008, 01:09 AM

i have a guild swash that runs re2 tanking, i'm sure he out tanks the zerkers on the server, since there is maybe 1 or 2(no joke) vp geared(if any gear at all) zerkers on my server.

LygerT

07-25-2008, 02:58 AM

oka swash isn't going to out tank a zerk in equal gear tanking a mob that matters (an epic for example) while wearing armor from the mob you are killing. the endsaying a swash can out tank a zerk in maidens/chelsith/RE/CoA/whatever heroic instance while wearinf fabled armor and using a mythical really doesn't mean much, i hope you understand what i am trying to say.

Moonbaby

07-25-2008, 04:39 AM

[Removed for Content]. I skimmed the posts here. Guardians are THE tanks of EQ2. I never thought I would hear a guard complain about tanking ability. Go to the bruiser forum then complain about tanking. You guards have the absolute garunteed spot in an organized raid. Groups rejoice when their LFM gets the response "ill go. ## guardian". So what if a rogue tanks an instance or named every once in a while? When it really counts, you're the one people look to for tanking. You can flame me for this post, but you are the very last people who should complain about your tanking ability.

Solkarr

07-25-2008, 01:22 PM

Odds are the swash that was so good at tanking was stunlocking the mob, thats the only way he would need so little healing. stun gear and stun poisons plus of course scout stuns. The thing is this works great against single targets, but not more than that. Thats why some scouts are designed to be spot tanks, or off tanks, but not main tanks.And as far as us guardians... yes, we kick serious butt. If you aren't, then you need to redo your AA, and maybe some of your gear. Mostly having the correct AA build will make the difference (for an amazing build, better than buckler spec, search my prior posts)Solkarr - 80 guardian, kithicor

Evette23

07-25-2008, 01:54 PM

<cite>Solkarr wrote:</cite><blockquote>for an amazing build, better than buckler spec, search my prior posts</blockquote>I was specc'd that way for a long time (str agi int). I'll take str sta int over that any day.

Windowlicker

08-06-2008, 11:43 AM

<cite>Moonbaby@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Removed for Content]. I skimmed the posts here. Guardians are THE tanks of EQ2. I never thought I would hear a guard complain about tanking ability. Go to the bruiser forum then complain about tanking. You guards have the absolute garunteed spot in an organized raid. Groups rejoice when their LFM gets the response "ill go. ## guardian". So what if a rogue tanks an instance or named every once in a while? When it really counts, you're the one people look to for tanking. You can flame me for this post, but you are the very last people who should complain about your tanking ability.</blockquote>I'm sorry but anything in leather should never be considered a pure tank. Your wearing leather. I fully support you being able to tank in some instances, but there's no justification anyone can ever give me that would validate you tackling the same content as a plate class.Understand that an "organized" raid will have one Guard. *Two* if they're unable to find a Pally or Berserker as an offtank.I agree that the Guard is the last class that should be complaining about it's tanking ability. However we should be complaining that it's based on our ability to DPS, instead of our ability to taunt or use abilities.

evilgamer

08-08-2008, 01:19 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Moonbaby@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Removed for Content]. I skimmed the posts here. Guardians are THE tanks of EQ2. I never thought I would hear a guard complain about tanking ability. Go to the bruiser forum then complain about tanking. You guards have the absolute garunteed spot in an organized raid. Groups rejoice when their LFM gets the response "ill go. ## guardian". So what if a rogue tanks an instance or named every once in a while? When it really counts, you're the one people look to for tanking. You can flame me for this post, but you are the very last people who should complain about your tanking ability.</blockquote>I'm sorry but anything in leather should never be considered a pure tank. Your wearing leather. I fully support you being able to tank in some instances, but there's no justification anyone can ever give me that would validate you tackling the same content as a plate class. Why? Brawlers are in the fighter archtype, we get taunts, rescue, intercede same as the other fighter classes.But as of now we struggle to even to tank certain heroic content. I have never been invited to tank RE 2 and rarely on maidens. We should be able to tank all heoric content no problem, that is not the case now. We should be able to tank epics to, maybee not a as well as a plate class, but I see no reason we should just go splat against epics like we do now. Its unbalanced.Understand that an "organized" raid will have one Guard. *Two* if they're unable to find a Pally or Berserker as an offtank.I agree that the Guard is the last class that should be complaining about it's tanking ability. However we should be complaining that it's based on our ability to DPS, instead of our ability to taunt or use abilities.Guard dps is to high as it is, you are only out dpsed by brawlers, who are forced to wear leather because of this, and you are barely outparsed by zerkers.If anythign guard dps needs nerfed.</blockquote>

LygerT

08-08-2008, 02:46 PM

i see brawlers do the job fine, of course they don't tank as well as plate tanks but of course they shouldn't be doing that and that's what i see a few people expecting and that's why most people have come to completely ignore brawler ranting because they have much more versatility solo than any other tank. of course some people will say, " who cares about solo utility when i rolled a tank so i would be able to tank" and i would say, "you should for picking the tank with the least survivability and the most focus on soloability".

evilgamer

08-08-2008, 03:13 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i see brawlers do the job fine, of course they don't tank as well as plate tanks but of course they shouldn't be doing that and that's what i see a few people expecting and that's why most people have come to completely ignore brawler ranting because they have much more versatility solo than any other tank. of course some people will say, " who cares about solo utility when i rolled a tank so i would be able to tank" and i would say, "you should for picking the tank with the least survivability and the most focus on soloability". </blockquote>Nobody said brawlers should tank as well as plate tanks, we give up plate & chain for some dps and a bit of utility , basically fd and our heals.We dps just under rouges and zerkers and guards dps just under us.Tank dps is pretty balanced except guardian is to high for where is should be.on a scale of 1-10 of dps i generally goes like this10 predators9 socercers/rogues8 summoners/chanters/brawlers7 bards, warriors6 crusadersthe reston a scale of 1-10 for tanking it goes like this10 guardian9 paladin/zerker8 sk76 brawler5 rogueBrawler tanking should be boosted to where we are viable tanks on raids, we are a tanking class, we share teh same common tank abilities as other tank classes, intercede, taunts, etc. But we go splat in raids.I am not saying we should tank as good as the plate tank, but the gap between plate tanking and brawler tanking is far greater then the gap between plate dps and brawler dps and its unbalanced.

LygerT

08-08-2008, 06:09 PM

heh, i wouldn't even put pally/zerker at 9, it is more like around 7ish comparatively speaking and i honestly am not sure SKs would be behind us in survivability as i've seen some SKs tank lesser mobs equally well if not better than i as a zerk can due to their lifetaps. i'll say it again though, there is 6 fighters, 4 of which do not have nearly as much solo utility as brawlers do. sorry to say, but you chose the least desirable fighter class in an already full pool of tanks so don't expect too many to take your side in tilting the scales in your favor. the main difference i think you are seeing is the survivability of guards vs the dps they put out vs a brawler, which is not a fair comparison to the rest of the plate tanks whom do not get both of those benefits. the problem i'm seeing with brawlers now is the cunundrum they got caught up into, in previous expansions they could kill almost any named solo, which alot of named in RoK are too difficult for brawlers to solo anymore so now you get more complaints about "where's our pie?", to which i think should be turned back into your ability to solo those named and leave the plate tanks to raid tanking priority-wise.

Moonbaby

08-09-2008, 01:18 AM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Moonbaby@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Removed for Content]. I skimmed the posts here. Guardians are THE tanks of EQ2. I never thought I would hear a guard complain about tanking ability. Go to the bruiser forum then complain about tanking. You guards have the absolute garunteed spot in an organized raid. Groups rejoice when their LFM gets the response "ill go. ## guardian". So what if a rogue tanks an instance or named every once in a while? When it really counts, you're the one people look to for tanking. You can flame me for this post, but you are the very last people who should complain about your tanking ability.</blockquote>I'm sorry but anything in leather should never be considered a pure tank. Your wearing leather. I fully support you being able to tank in some instances, but there's no justification anyone can ever give me that would validate you tackling the same content as a plate class.Understand that an "organized" raid will have one Guard. *Two* if they're unable to find a Pally or Berserker as an offtank. Ah yes, let me clarify. You've got the garunteed MT tank spot. If an organized raid is looking for a tank, it's a guard!I agree that the Guard is the last class that should be complaining about it's tanking ability. However we should be complaining that it's based on our ability to DPS, instead of our ability to taunt or use abilities.</blockquote>

Rahatmattata

08-09-2008, 05:32 AM

<cite>Moonbaby@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Ah yes, let me clarify. You've got the garunteed MT tank spot. If an organized raid is looking for a tank, it's a guard!</blockquote></blockquote>One of the reasons I made a guardian.

LygerT

08-09-2008, 06:11 AM

that's because guards have so few drawbacks compared to other tanks.. i'm still not quite sure why this thread even exists to be honest.

Rahatmattata

08-09-2008, 01:55 PM

<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> You guys should use one of the other 50 guardian whine threads to cry about guardians. We really don't need it on our class boards.

evilgamer

08-09-2008, 02:00 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>heh, i wouldn't even put pally/zerker at 9, it is more like around 7ish comparatively speaking and i honestly am not sure SKs would be behind us in survivability as i've seen some SKs tank lesser mobs equally well if not better than i as a zerk can due to their lifetaps. i'll say it again though, there is 6 fighters, 4 of which do not have nearly as much solo utility as brawlers do. A complete exageration. SK's and paladins both solo very good, especially the SK. And when you talk about "soloability" what exactly are you talking about anyway? Because all the classes can solo the solo content pretty easily. Some a bit faster then others, but still they can do it. At tougher levels I honestly think the SK is a better named buster then the brawlers are, basically as long as the SK has power he can lifetap. Sure I could solo green heroic content on my bruiser, but I could do the same on my SK. The only reason brawlers solo so well is because of FD and their self heals. Both of which can be bought off the broker.sorry to say, but you chose the least desirable fighter class in an already full pool of tanks so don't expect too many to take your side in tilting the scales in your favor. Titling the skills in our favor would be giving us surviablity better then plate tanks with our superiour dps. I did not as for that. Just for the surviability gap to be closed. We are tanks, we are in the fighter archtype, but we tank closer to rogues then we do the other tank classes and our dps is barely ahead of warriors. Like I said earlier the gap between warrior and brawler dps is far far smaller the gap between warrior and brawler tanking.the main difference i think you are seeing is the survivability of guards vs the dps they put out vs a brawler, which is not a fair comparison to the rest of the plate tanks whom do not get both of those benefits. the problem i'm seeing with brawlers now is the cunundrum they got caught up into, in previous expansions they could kill almost any named solo, which alot of named in RoK are too difficult for brawlers to solo anymore so now you get more complaints about "where's our pie?", to which i think should be turned back into your ability to solo those named and leave the plate tanks to raid tanking priority-wise. No, really no class should be able to solo heroic content, its tagged heoric content for a reason. We should be able to tank on raids, that is our the purpose of our class. Granted the plate tanks should always tank better then us, but now the gap between plate and brawler tanking is far greated then the gap between plate and brawer dps.</blockquote>

LygerT

08-09-2008, 02:16 PM

well i offtank next to a monk all the time, i'm not sure how much further behind bruisers are to monks in survivability but i doubt it can be that much. seriously though, the plate was pretty empty to begin with with 6 tanks fighting for raid spots. soloability means to me and most everyone how well they can get to and solo heroic content on their own, with 0 support, and brawlers do that best but you are right that SK does well too but also keep in mind how close they are to you in raid desirability. so main points are, there's not many spots on raids for tanks so the tanks that can do the least outside of a raid should have more priority than those who have alot of personal utility. to boil this down, a number of brawlers have wanted the whole ball for some time. you can FD down to a heroic named and solo it, you can flop to shineys and make a grip of plat, you have decent DPS for a fighter and can still take a few hits while dishing them out. now of course is the whole debate of when brawlers will be desirable main tanks as well, well, pick something to give up because you aren't getting that for free.

evilgamer

08-09-2008, 06:11 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> there's not many spots on raids for tanks so the tanks that can do the least outside of a raid should have more priority than those who have alot of personal utility. Limited spots for fighters on raids is a content issue, not a class balance issue. SOE needs to implement content that requires 6 tanks, instead of 2. EQ 1 was full of raid content that required alot of offtanking. EQ2 is an epic fail in this reguard. to boil this down, a number of brawlers have wanted the whole ball for some time. you can FD down to a heroic named and solo it,But nothing that drops anything useful. you can flop to shineys and make a grip of plat, you have decent DPS for a fighter and can still take a few hits while dishing them out. now of course is the whole debate of when brawlers will be desirable main tanks as well, well, pick something to give up because you aren't getting that for free. Listen I already said surviablity should be plate tanks > brawlers, just like brawlers dps should > plate tank dps.The problem is that we barely dps above the warriors, but your tanking is light years better then ours. Its unbalanced.</blockquote>

Rahatmattata

08-10-2008, 02:23 AM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>The problem is that <strike>we</strike> I barely dps above the warriors, but your tanking is light years better then <strike>ours</strike> mine . Its unbalanced.</blockquote></blockquote>Fixed it for you.

evilgamer

08-10-2008, 03:59 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>The problem is that <strike>we</strike> I barely dps above the warriors, but your tanking is light years better then <strike>ours</strike> mine . Its unbalanced.</blockquote></blockquote>Fixed it for you.</blockquote>You know so very little about this game.A good end game zerker will hit 6K zonewide a good end game brawler will do 7K in a raid. Dont believe me look here:<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers/20169-random-berserker-zonewides-6.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers...onewides-6.html</a> <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/monks/27501-random-monk-zonewides.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/monks/2750...-zonewides.html</a> Which means a zerker can do 85% of the dps a brawler can in a raid.But brawlers tanking is about 40-50% of zerker tanking in raids.Its unbalanced.

LygerT

08-10-2008, 05:15 AM

eh forget it

Rahatmattata

08-10-2008, 05:49 AM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>You know so very little about this game.</blockquote>This coming from someone that just said (and I'm paraphrasing) named mobs don't drop anything useful. I wish there was an /ignore function for the forums. I guess I'll have to ignore you from now on the old fashioned way.

LygerT

08-10-2008, 02:16 PM

...40-50% of zerk tanking is bogus, you know it. now you're just sounding petty and making things up, zerks are not nearly that close to guards in tanking but now you claim we tank as well and even better than they do with your % tank comparison...and since when are masters, fabled/legendary attunable items not useful? they sure don't hurt your wallet. so now you want the 20%+ bonus to your tanking ability, you want to be the best DPS when not tanking, you want to be the best solo fighters. yea, it's no wonder so many have come to ignore brawler rants on wanting to be viable main tanks. maybe you want more from the game now, i don't know, problem is you picked the completely wrong class to do it with. none of the rest of the fighters can do every aspect of the game, nor should brawlers.

evilgamer

08-10-2008, 06:37 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>...40-50% of zerk tanking is bogus, you know it. now you're just sounding petty and making things up, zerks are not nearly that close to guards in tanking but now you claim we tank as well and even better than they do with your % tank comparison...You tank prolly 20% worse then guardians and brawlers prolly tank 30% worse then you do. So yeah brawler tanking is alot worse.and since when are masters, fabled/legendary attunable items not useful? No non mythical/fabled/mastered brawler can solo any named that drop T8 masters. So you are only talking about 1% of all brawlers that can solo that content.they sure don't hurt your wallet. so now you want the 20%+ bonus to your tanking ability, you want to be the best DPS when not tanking, you want to be the best solo fighters. yea, it's no wonder so many have come to ignore brawler rants on wanting to be viable main tanks. maybe you want more from the game now, i don't know, problem is you picked the completely wrong class to do it with. none of the rest of the fighters can do every aspect of the game, nor should brawlers. </blockquote>

LygerT

08-11-2008, 03:35 PM

you said 40-50% of zerker tanking and as i said elsewhere the gap may start out there but as you get better gear and the healers get better then that gap gets smaller.

evilgamer

08-11-2008, 03:47 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>you said 40-50% of zerker tanking and as i said elsewhere the gap may start out there but as you get better gear and the healers get better then that gap gets smaller. </blockquote>I think a more accurate description is that the content gets trivial, so the gap appears to be smaller.The gap is still there, just the content is so easy now, you wont notice it.But when the next expansion hits it will be back to the same old 40-50% again.

Junaru

09-12-2008, 01:18 PM

Lyger I can see you point but one thing I want to point out is some of us made our Brawlers long before SOE made them into what they are now. My Monk was once a shield toting tank (Yes Brawlers could use round shields at one time for your noobs). So saying I knew better when I picked a Monk is wrong.I agree the difference in tanking is not 40% - 50% between Zerks and Brawlers. Maybe Guardians and Brawlers.I know a lot of Guardians don't want to hear it but it's the truth. No plate class should be able to max out uncontested avoidance. Hell it should be extremely hard for a Brawler to do it. SOE has clearly broken tanking with this and there are so deep in it now there is no way to fix it. SOE would need to revamp 80% of the content to fix it which means it wont happen. If SOE can't balance the leather tanks to the plate tanks on raid mobs thats fine with me. But give me access to epic only poisons and more hate sheading against epic mobs.And I also agree. This thread should have never been made. =o)

evilgamer

09-12-2008, 02:05 PM

40-50% is probably an exageration on my part. I would say brawlers tank about 15% worse then SK, about 20% worse then zerkers/paladins about 30-40% worse then guardians.

Thoral

09-12-2008, 06:04 PM

Well, since this thread is still here I'm going to tell you all about my massive guardian complaints.I group and raid with an SK all the time, and seems to be just about as tough as me, does more damage, and pulls aggro off me all the time. So, I cried myself to sleep a few nights and then asked him [Removed for Content]?Well, he's got 19 masters to my 2, most of his gear is better than mine, he was running with +parry food/drink, oilstones, crit potions, adornments, and every other tweak he could think of, and I was slacking in all those areas.So, it turns out my massive complaints are that he's got better stuff and tweaks a lot better than me. So, my only real comlaint is that SK masters cost like nothing but my guard ones cost more than a guild hall. /sobMan I hate being bored at work.

LygerT

09-13-2008, 12:52 PM

now you know 1 main reason i stuck with this class. i could be a half decent zerk or betray and have to start all over again paying triple or more for masters just to be a guardian offtank, woo woo. being full mastered is something that is hard to give up when you look at how barren the market is for guardian masters. being a good tank isn't just about showing up at a zone with your weapon and shield, to be an exceptional tank you have to know how to balance your gear, your buffs to your group and using add-ons to which benefit you the most at any given time. even doing labs, Lyceum or crap like that i still use 50g on potions just to make sure i don't slack off, because pushing yourself is what the endgame is really about, even while doing trivial content and just pulling half the zone at a time, sometimes i wish they didn't nerf the range on our AE taunt... heh.but you can buy my guard group taunt master, it's on the broker right now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />