How hard is it to be a decent defiler?

[ExtremeFaji]

I am looking to work on a character that is geared exclusively to group play and one that is in demand over level 50. From what I have read, defiler seems like a good choice for this. In general I have found that not being a total idiot, paying attention and thinking of the group more than yourself will get you to an above-average level in any class. However, some classes are harder than others to really get to the point of being in-demand on raids as small mistakes (crowd control) can be disasterous. I'm just curious what you all think it takes to be an above average defiler. Do some people "just have it" and some never will, or can anyone with enough focus, experience and and forum-research get to an elite level?

[Decad]

<p>Hmm, not that hard.</p><p>Unless I'm having a cerebral hemorage atm, we only have one out of encounter AoE (Defile), so there really is no worries about crowd control. We get two fears for detaunting (I play DE, so I get one other detaunt). Just be mindful of your wards (and the group buff with minor ward in it) when someone pulls. The ward can often give you aggro.</p><p>Other than that, it's pretty easy I think.</p><p>Now soloing... that can be some work.</p>

[Elwin]

<p>I don't think Defiler if you're healer oriented is a hard class to learn as long as you don't think you or 'wonder mut' are going to be doing any serious damage..  but it's a pretty rewarding class to learn and play. (to me hard class to learn is scout... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />)</p><p>Resist the temptation to chose damage spells for Master 2's.. choose the wards when you can and never underestimate the power of your dots and de-buffs. </p><p>Try to ward just prior to the 'pull' (depending on impatience of mt) Pay as much attention to your needs as the group too... a dead healer is not much use in any group.</p><p>I am by no means an 'elite' Defiler.. lol.. but it is a class I really enjoy playing and they do rock in a group situation. I've had no trouble soloing so far.. (but I'm still only little) but I group with a Warlock most days and man we are a nasty combination <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Same old.. keep your spells at adept 3 minimum where you can (harvest! craft! harvest!) and... have fun <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> You sound like you'd be an 'ace' defiler to me. Merry Christmas <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[cggerth]

There is nothing difficult about playing a decent defiler.  It's similar  to all the other classes, not hard to be decent.To be really really good will take alot of effort and knowing your class very well, but that can be said about all classes the same.After awhile you'll figure out a routine to use for your debuffs/heals/DPS and such to make the most out of your power.  After awhile if you play with a specific group, you'll tailor it to your group to speed up the fights.  But that's the same with all classes.

[arieste]

<cite>ExtremeFajita wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm just curious what you all think it takes to be an above average defiler. Do some people "just have it" and some never will, or can anyone with enough focus, experience and and forum-research get to an elite level?</blockquote><p>In my opinion (and it is merely my opinion, though i have been playing a raiding defiler for more than 3 years now) what is needed to be a great defiler is the ability to make constant and quick decisions about what is best to cast in any given situation.  </p><p>For a defiler it is a constant trade-off.  The tank is at 20% HP.  Do I heal them?  For any healer this is an easy question.   Not for the defiler.   A good defiler is aware taht pretty much everyone other class' heals are faster, so by the time we cast a heal on the tank, he will either be dead or healed by someone else.  Do we ward them against the next hit?  That's always a good bet. Again, what are the other healers doing?  Do we debuff the mob so it does 40% less damage on the next attack?  Do we cast defile and kill the mob because it's under 10% and burning it is more important than keeping the tank alive?  I havve been and commonly find myself in situations where either of the above is the right answer.  It's always a trade-off for us.  </p><p>Then of course there is the heal parsing.  Do you want to top the heal parse or to be more efficient and bring most to the raid?  Topping the heal parse means you get recognition, but it also means lazy play and healblocking the other healers most of the time.  It also generally means that you aren't doing what you should be.   EVERY healer can heal.  Not every healer can debuff and dps. </p><p>Elite level?   I don't quite know what that is.  Before RoK (at level 70, a well-known defiler told me they can duo the maestro (lvl75^^^ X2 mob in castle mistmoore) with a guardian.  To me that was "elite level".</p>

[Facedown]

Not hard at all. You can even be a lazy good defiler, depending on the group. Pre pull throw up a group ward and hope the tank does an aoe encounter taunt on the inc, then just start the debuffing. Eventually you'll need to reapply some wards, and maybe debuff some adds...but beyond that there isn't much to it.Arieste hit the nail on the head though with the example of a tank dropping to 20% and having problems deciding what to do. Generally speaking, a good defiler would know which tools to use to make the situation not end in a death. Half the time I save the tank, hes still at 20% by the time that mob dies because im too busy stacking wards to throw out one of my ungodly long healing spells. Where as a fury or a warden would pop that tank right back up to 100% in a few seconds without a problem. Where we excel at PREVENTING damage, not fixing it like druids or cleric types.It requires you actually pay attention in raids though, you're not going to be sitting there watching whatever is on TV while your MT is about to pull.

[Estean1]

<cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ExtremeFajita wrote:</cite><p>Then of course there is the heal parsing.  Do you want to top the heal parse or to be more efficient and bring most to the raid?  Topping the heal parse means you get recognition, but it also means lazy play and healblocking the other healers most of the time.  It also generally means that you aren't doing what you should be.   EVERY healer can heal.  Not every healer can debuff and dps. </p></blockquote><p>I would have to disagree with this  statement here.  Just because someone is kicking it on the heal parse does not make them lazy.  I guess that since the op only asks what it takes to be a "decent" defiler then chain casting wards and doing nothing else would suffice.  A good defiler will do both.  A good defiler can pretty much have wards up at all times AND debuff the mob completely.  These two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.</p><p>While my defiler certainly isn't uber or elite he still puts out a decent heal parse while at the same time debuffing.  The last 4 raids my zonewides have been 502, 488, 432, and 562 and I kept every single mob debuffed during the fight.  While it may not be hard to be a decent defiler that doesnt' mean they are taking full advantage of the class.  </p><p>Group with different defilers on your server and you can see that there can be HUGE differences in the quality of play a shaman puts out.  Differences that can make or break a group or raid.  </p>

[Barruk]

I think Morphea hit it on the head -- 99% of the time its relatively easy work. Its those rare times when the s**t hits the fan where being able to stay in control and get the spells off you need to determine how "good" you are. However, the same thing goes for a tank, DPS, etc.

[arieste]

<cite>Estean@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ExtremeFajita wrote:</cite><p>Then of course there is the heal parsing.  Do you want to top the heal parse or to be more efficient and bring most to the raid?  Topping the heal parse means you get recognition, but it also means lazy play and healblocking the other healers most of the time.  It also generally means that you aren't doing what you should be.   EVERY healer can heal.  Not every healer can debuff and dps. </p></blockquote><p>I would have to disagree with this  statement here.  Just because someone is kicking it on the heal parse does not make them lazy.  I guess that since the op only asks what it takes to be a "decent" defiler then chain casting wards and doing nothing else would suffice.  A good defiler will do both.  A good defiler can pretty much have wards up at all times AND debuff the mob completely.  These two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.</p><p>While my defiler certainly isn't uber or elite he still puts out a decent heal parse while at the same time debuffing.  The last 4 raids my zonewides have been 502, 488, 432, and 562 and I kept every single mob debuffed during the fight.  While it may not be hard to be a decent defiler that doesnt' mean they are taking full advantage of the class.  </p><p>Group with different defilers on your server and you can see that there can be HUGE differences in the quality of play a shaman puts out.  Differences that can make or break a group or raid.  </p></blockquote>You are right in that just because someone is topping the heal parse, doesn't mean they aren't doing their job.  But in my experience this is the case most of the time.  To begin to evaluate my performance using parses, in addition to your numbers, I would look at 2 more things about those raids:  1.  What was the % parse for the two bottom healers on the heal parse.  This will tell you if you were overwarding.  2.  What was your dps parse?

[cggerth]

I agree with a few people here that are saying, just because you are topping the parse doesn't mean you are a lazy healer or "block healing" others.Like the person above me, you have to take into consideration what you are fighting, how many other healers there are, how close the heal parse is, whether most of that healing was group heals, or just MT heal.  Whether the MT stayed completely at full health the majority of the fight or took tons of spike dmg, how many AoE;'s there were.When I'm in the MT group for a raid, and we are fighting a mob that really only does direct damage, I can usually keep all my wards on the MT with no problem plus debuff all the mobs and top the parse.  When we are fighting a raid mob that does tons of AoE dmg, anyone can top the parse as the majority of healing is being done by healing up your group.You can't really tell how good a healer is just by looking at a parse saying they healed for this amount.  You have to know what they were fighting, what the type of dmg was.  I tend to use the parse more for figuring out what of my heals was the more effective for healing the MT and my group as oppose to saying "I'm better then such and such healer as I topped the parse".  The parse is a WONDERFUL tool if used correctly, but can be disastrous for quite a few ego's if used incorrectly.

[arieste]

<cite>cggerth wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with a few people here that are saying, just because you are topping the parse doesn't mean you are a lazy healer or "block healing" others.Like the person above me, you have to take into consideration what you are fighting, how many other healers there are, how close the heal parse is, whether most of that healing was group heals, or just MT heal.  Whether the MT stayed completely at full health the majority of the fight or took tons of spike dmg, how many AoE;'s there were.When I'm in the MT group for a raid, and we are fighting a mob that really only does direct damage, I can usually keep all my wards on the MT with no problem plus debuff all the mobs and top the parse.  When we are fighting a raid mob that does tons of AoE dmg, anyone can top the parse as the majority of healing is being done by healing up your group.You can't really tell how good a healer is just by looking at a parse saying they healed for this amount.  You have to know what they were fighting, what the type of dmg was.  I tend to use the parse more for figuring out what of my heals was the more effective for healing the MT and my group as oppose to saying "I'm better then such and such healer as I topped the parse".  The parse is a WONDERFUL tool if used correctly, but can be disastrous for quite a few ego's if used incorrectly.</blockquote>That would be the right way of using the heal parse.   What I meant with my earlier comment was that most people do not know this.  What most people will judge you by is whether you are on top or how high your HPS is.  So you have to choose whether you want to be the most effective defiler or whether you want to look good to others.  The two aren't mutually exclusive, but they do conflict A LOT.  It's very easy to pad the parse and look good if that is all your guild cares about. 

[Estean1]

<cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This</p><p>Then of course there is the heal parsing.  Do you want to top the heal parse or to be more efficient and bring most to the raid?  Topping the heal parse means you get recognition, but it also means lazy play and healblocking the other healers most of the time.  It also generally means that you aren't doing what you should be.   EVERY healer can heal.  Not every healer can debuff and dps. </p><p>Does not mesh at all with This </p><p>That would be the right way of using the heal parse.   What I meant with my earlier comment was that most people do not know this.  What most people will judge you by is whether you are on top or how high your HPS is.  So you have to choose whether you want to be the most effective defiler or whether you want to look good to others.  The two aren't mutually exclusive, but they do conflict A LOT.  It's very easy to pad the parse and look good if that is all your guild cares about.  </p></blockquote><p>The first paragraph was full of conclusions while the second paragraph waffled on those conclusions.  You said you can either top the heal parse or be efficient for the raid like there is no in between. I guess it doesn't matter though because I agree with your last post here.  The heal parse should be used as a tool to improve yourself and not to rate how good of a healer you are.  I only really had the problem with the statement that topping the heal parse "means lazy play and Healblocking" I guess by saying "most of the time" you are trying to say that you can be capable of both.  </p><p>Edited for typos. </p>

[javis]

<p>To me a good defiler is one that adjusts to each group or raid you are in. It is very easy to just spam single/group wards. The nature of our spells in preventing damage will most likely always top the parse and everyone knows this so it isn't a good inidicator of your effectiveness overall although it shouldn't be discounted.</p><p>Aside from warding my main focus is cures and debuffing. so much of group play is adjusting to who is in the group, PUG's are hard to determine early on, but the more you are in the group the more you can adjust your priorities. Our single and group direct heals are slower than most healer classes so in a group with another healer I play it by ear.</p><p>Grouping with other healers: </p><p>If you have a fury or templar it is best to keep the tank health level while their speciality healing kicks in, hots and reactives with a ward up will fill the tank up fast. The challenge is knowing when the damage is spiking beyond your ward that you need to intervene with a heal or more wards. I keep an eye on how fast the wards are dropping on the tank and that is a good indicator of whether I need to kick in more wards or secondary heals. ProfitUI is wonderful for this and I recommend it to any defiler.</p><p>some examples:</p><p>If the group is parsing above average dps and the mob is falling fast, usually a pre ward single and group will get you through the fight, so assisting the people in the group to do more damage is the focus. Scouts and necros with poison spells/attacks will do better with my poison debuff DD/AE, and fulginous is one of our best dots so I use it as much as I can because it also debuffs dps. DPS debuffs are always high on my list. Also, the bane line is best cast early on.</p><p>A heavy tank group or lower dps is more of a challenge because it limits your flexibility. The longer the fight the more damage the MT will receive which means more wards and a cautious outlook what to cast until you get a feel for what the group can handle. There is nothing worse than getting caught with a low life situation and be in the middle of a long casting group ward, yelling at the screen HANG ON <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In those groups you have to play it by ear, dps debuffs and bane become really important to stick early on, then damage as you can. I am a big proponent of cure as quickly as possible. alot of curses limit DPS, which is a healers best friend.</p><p>So much of your viability is in concert with the other players in the group. If you have an AA specced dog and the tank doesn't turn the mob then you will lose alot of pets during the course of a group. Non AE frontal mobs, less of a concern but alot of group content has those type of attacks. So asking the tank to turn the mob is beneficial to everyone. The pet provides melee haste as well a ward approx every 4th hit (8 aa). Coordinating with other healers in a group or raid in a simple tell will work wonders in the groups efficiency becuase if you don't, things will be assumed and you may be doing the same thing. good example is Crypt of Agony where there is an elemental based curse that is constantly being placed on the group and if you dont cure it quick the the power for each spell/attack doubles. If you have a druid in group, coordinate the curing of those with a group message for group cure so you don't sit there trying to single cure each one.</p><p>I specced the stamina AA for the fast cures as the the raid dots can literally kill people within a few ticks. As an added benefit you get shield bash and I use it everytime I can for the short duration stun. Obviously it doesnt affect epics but in groups it is a nice little thing we can do to prevent damage.</p><p>it would be nice to be able to parse cures and debuffs, have never looked in to but I will investigate it now.</p><p>cheers,</p><p>-Xel</p>

[arieste]

<cite>Estean@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>arieste wrote:</cite><p>The first paragraph was full of conclusions while the second paragraph waffled on those conclusions.  You said you can either top the heal parse or be efficient for the raid like there is no in between. I guess it doesn't matter though because I agree with your last post here.  The heal parse should be used as a tool to improve yourself and not to rate how good of a healer you are.  I only really had the problem with the statement that topping the heal parse "means lazy play and Healblocking" I guess by saying "most of the time" you are trying to say that you can be capable of both.  </p><p>Edited for typos. </p></blockquote>that's correct "most of the time" was meant to qualify that it is indeed it is possible to top the heal parse and still be adding the most to the raid.  Anyhow, I think we agree in the end.  cheers.

[Libras]

It's not hard to be a good defiler, but it's important to know your tank and your recasts to be a very good defiler.  It's easy to spam wards and keep people at 100%, but it's harder to know when you can canni, soul canni.  Where it really gets hard is when the [I cannot control my vocabulary] hits the fan and you need to prioritize your heals and your wards according to what spells are up and what spells are going to be up soon.  Do you use your single target ward, or wait another half second to do your sacrificial heal with ritual?  Do you group heal, or group ward and hope only your tank is getting beat on.A good defiler can handle the first half, or a little more than that.  A great defiler can do all of that and find time to keep his power up and everyone in the group up.

[cggerth]

I'd also like to add that to be a really good raid defiler you should get the ACT parser with spell timers.  Since I've started using the spell timer portion I have improved my healing by about 5X.  This is especially important if you are the MT defiler.  With this you can time your anti-death spells, try and make sure your group ward drops just before an AoE goes off.  I've timed my soulward to land just before a massive direct damage lands on the tank.Makes trying to time everything ALOT easier.

[Solzak]

I have found the ProfitUI Reborn custom UI to be invaluable.  Along with the spell timers mentioned by cggerth, the off-target cures/ward/heals are a huge help when the shhtuff hits the fan (to paraphrase another post<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Being able to cure, spot heal, and even ward anyone in your group can save your MT when you don't have to spend time switching targets.  You can even rez or Soul Ward anyone in your group/raid without switching targets.Personally, I was a 70 Mystic when my guild decided it needed a Defiler, so I betrayed.  The difference in Soloing I found was..  painful.  But I know my special abilities are responsible for keeping our MT alive thru many a [Removed for Content]? moment, so I'm not lamenting the change.  Getting to 80 was, er, 'fun', but I made it with a little help from my friends. (insert sound bite here)Like some others have said, I group ward before most pulls.  The MT knows this, and taunts right off the bat.  Even with tough pulls, I rarely get aggro.  On tougher Named and Epics I will use both group and Single wards on him, and that can get me aggro for a second or two, but the MT survives, I dehate, and all is well.  Right after the pull, I'll single ward (again) and then start debuffing.  The new RoK zones usually let me get two or three debuffs in before I have to refresh the ward(s).  And Deathward is SO nice to have in emergencies.  Once the debuffs are all in, and the DoT's are doing their stuff, what is there to do but keep them and the ward(s) up?  If its safe to, I'll get bhind the mob with the scouts and melee.  Not a big help with DPS, but I have a few proc items that DO help with healing/debuffs.  Not too many of those 'Safe' mobs left on T8 Raids, tho.