A desperate plea to the Developers!

[caliburns]

<p>This is getting silly, Why hasn't it been changed yet, why cant Bruisers/monks use hand wraps/knuckles with the STR line, I mean come on.</p><p>I wear gloves, does that mean if I punch someone would that mean I'm using a weapon?</p><p> does some how wrapping my fists in leather encumber my arms and wrists so much that it effects my fighting prowess.</p><p> its just not funny any more, with all the new RoK items many of which are insanely overpowered, it is getting extremely depressing, I'm being force to spec my char in a way I do not want to just so I can be competitive, This is just wrong.</p><p>Please this is a beg.. Change it so we can use knuckle and fist wraps with the str line, no one will complain I mean ATM its a running joke, no one even know why we cant, it is just bizarre that we cant makes no since at all..</p><p>If any Bruisers or monk feels the same please post</p>

[Pnaxx]

I respectfully disagree.....I love the fact I have Fabled weapons as my free bare hands til I get some better Fabled Weapons. It has saved me a ton of cash.

[caliburns]

<p>im talking about the fact wraps and knuckles should be usable with STR line, not the differance between bare fists and others.</p><p>as i see it and many others too, Kncukles and wraps are fist weapons.... and there for should work with the fist line and its attacks.</p>

[Junaru]

<cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I respectfully disagree.....I love the fact I have Fabled weapons as my free bare hands til I get some better Fabled Weapons. It has saved me a ton of cash.</blockquote>So the hell with everyone else, UNTIL you manage to join us with good weapons then you will jump on our side? Sweet. I'm looking forward to you raiding and getting weapons. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pnaxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I respectfully disagree.....I love the fact I have Fabled weapons as my free bare hands til I get some better Fabled Weapons. It has saved me a ton of cash.</blockquote>So the hell with everyone else, UNTIL you manage to join us with good weapons then you will jump on our side? Sweet. I'm looking forward to you raiding and getting weapons. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Nice! My opinion is what it is...and yes, it is due to my experience to this point. BUt as a whole, I think it is a good thing as the STR line is laid out. One day, maybe I'll get some nice Fabled t7-t8 weapons, but possibly not. I don't really raid, and the same with a lot of other players. We are middle of the road Master Crafted AdaptIII  folks trying to stay afloat who don't and never had as many hours that are needed to raid alot. </p><p>So, yes, in my opinion, STR Line is fine, and I really love it. But to hell with my opinion.</p>

[Siatfallen]

If you voice your oppinion, expect to be corrected when it is wrong. So, to the idea that "we like the str line as it is":1: Fabled weapons are available outside of raiding. There's one in CoA for t8. Look up my character on eq2players one of these days, I think I'm using it.2: Legendary weapons with decent adornments outparse str-specs if you do not waste points on the str line with the weapons but spend them where they will actually help. In t7, one example of this was the bo of flowing blood from the Estate of Unrest. With weapon effects becoming increasingly common, expect this trend to be commonplace as well. Off the top of my head, there's a quest in Teren's Grasp asking you to kill some named in Karnor's Castle. I would be surprised if the twohander you get as a reward could not compete with a str-spec, again given proper adornments - and if it can't, then there's one in the City of Mist as well. Refer to the t8 loot thread on the monk forum for reference. Both are quest drops, which means you are guaranteed to get them if you do the quest. It should be simple.3: Arguing that saving money on levelling is what the str line should be used for is broken. As a brawler, if grinding xp is proving to be a problem for you because you cannot solo mobs, I'm sorry, but you're doing something very wrong. We (brawlers) do not need more solo viability, we're able to grind levels just fine thankyouverymuch.As for the finincial argument, I fail to see the relevance again. A character played from 1 to 80 earns enough money to buy decent gear already - perhaps the str line gives a slightly higher output, but compared to having the same line give an advantage that stays relevant throughout the course of the game (and not just until you hit t8 and get any kind of decent legendary+ weapon which is really not hard even for casual players), I know what I'd prefer.4: You prefer to fight barehanded due to your vision of brawlers: Okay, fair enough. Buy fistwraps and there you go. This messes up itemization above mastercrafted.... But you're pulling out an argument based on visuals here, so surely gear progression cannot be your first concern.To the "let's open the str line to fist weapons:No. Let's not have a line based on what kind of weapon is being used. This idea has been abandoned in this game a while ago because it was limiting to the freedom of the players (as opposed to the strange idea that some hold that setting these limitations will allow the player to define characters based on specs and hence weapons). Let's  instead nerf the bonuses of the stength line to be on par with allowing weapons with it, and open it to all weapons. It's about time the wis line in the rogue tree (as much as I visually really like the idea of the fencer) and the str line in the brawler tree fell in line with this idea. As they are right now, they are relics of the past only really useful for much of anything while levelling and not wanting to spend money on decent weapons.

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you voice your oppinion, expect to be corrected when it is wrong. So, to the idea that "we like the str line as it is":1: Fabled weapons are available outside of raiding. There's one in CoA for t8. Look up my character on eq2players one of these days, I think I'm using it.2: Legendary weapons with decent adornments outparse str-specs if you do not waste points on the str line with the weapons but spend them where they will actually help. In t7, one example of this was the bo of flowing blood from the Estate of Unrest. With weapon effects becoming increasingly common, expect this trend to be commonplace as well. Off the top of my head, there's a quest in Teren's Grasp asking you to kill some named in Karnor's Castle. I would be surprised if the twohander you get as a reward could not compete with a str-spec, again given proper adornments - and if it can't, then there's one in the City of Mist as well. Refer to the t8 loot thread on the monk forum for reference. Both are quest drops, which means you are guaranteed to get them if you do the quest. It should be simple.3: Arguing that saving money on levelling is what the str line should be used for is broken. As a brawler, if grinding xp is proving to be a problem for you because you cannot solo mobs, I'm sorry, but you're doing something very wrong. We (brawlers) do not need more solo viability, we're able to grind levels just fine thankyouverymuch.As for the finincial argument, I fail to see the relevance again. A character played from 1 to 80 earns enough money to buy decent gear already - perhaps the str line gives a slightly higher output, but compared to having the same line give an advantage that stays relevant throughout the course of the game (and not just until you hit t8 and get any kind of decent legendary+ weapon which is really not hard even for casual players), I know what I'd prefer.4: You prefer to fight barehanded due to your vision of brawlers: Okay, fair enough. Buy fistwraps and there you go. This messes up itemization above mastercrafted.... But you're pulling out an argument based on visuals here, so surely gear progression cannot be your first concern.To the "let's open the str line to fist weapons:No. Let's not have a line based on what kind of weapon is being used. This idea has been abandoned in this game a while ago because it was limiting to the freedom of the players (as opposed to the strange idea that some hold that setting these limitations will allow the player to define characters based on specs and hence weapons). Let's  instead nerf the bonuses of the stength line to be on par with allowing weapons with it, and open it to all weapons. It's about time the wis line in the rogue tree (as much as I visually really like the idea of the fencer) and the str line in the brawler tree fell in line with this idea. As they are right now, they are relics of the past only really useful for much of anything while levelling and not wanting to spend money on decent weapons.</blockquote><p>Wow...just....wow.</p><p>Lets see, we have our opinions, but mine is the one that needs corresting eh? Hehe.</p><p>Fabled weapons are fine, and once I get something...if I get something...that makes better sense than the bare fisrted STR Line, great, I'll respec. Whats the big dealio? Same with Legendary.....when did I say that there was nothing out there for me? Just that until I get the better stuff, whatever that is, I like the idea that the STR Line is barefisted. It allowed me to level my char using Fabled Weapons! And cost me no plat....that money was used elsewhere.</p><p>This post is so meaningless I will just stop here. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of my opinion.....thats what opinions are for. And it's the height of arrogance to declare yours is the correct one....in this case its a subjective argument where their is neither right or wrong.</p><p>Now go have fun you dork.</p>

[KBern]

<p>I dont see how creating fist wraps with stats and possible effects such as (+ to crit, + to haste, + to DPS, + to CA dmg, etc) would change the STR line to anything but better than it is now.</p><p>I am with the poster who cannot understand your logic to not wanting to improve something that is obviously a detriment in the area of having additional stats, power, health, and effects.</p><p>Yes it is your opinion, and you have a right to it, and others have a right to totally not understand it either.</p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>I think every Class should have an AA tree devoted completely to "levelling and saving money on weapons" and then be completely useless. </p><p>It makes perfect sense now - thx for helping see the light!</p>

[Danan]

I personally think that the entire Str line should be revamped, maybe allow brawlers to once again use shields (buckler and round) and dedicate this line to the shield use. This would in return allow a high double attack as it is now and make the defensive brawler have as high if not just a little higher uncontested avoidance over other fighters. It could even have a taunting shield attack and maybe even a little mitigation. But as it is right now the STR line is almost pointless once you reach max level and try an instance or two.

[Kaoru]

Strength line should be removed. Any brawler who still thinks this line has any basis in the game as it is now should delete their toon and reroll on hello kitty island adventure.

[Ganeden]

I totally agree, there's no reason for the Str line not to allow all weapons, or at least "fist" weapons. I remember while reading the update notes when they changed the AAa and it said that weapon requirements for the third line in archtypes would not have weapon requirments expect for a few exceptions. I instantly knew we got one of the new nerfed AAs and that the Str line wouldn't be changed. Also I think this is the only line that still requires a certain weapon on any classes. I think they just didn't want to come out and openly say they singled out brawlers and screwed them once again.Avoidance tanking is getting worse in Kunark as is the disparity between our DPS and other fighter's dps. The other fighters are better tanks and better dps and we didn't get better at either. Why not change the requirement on the str aa?

[Meilay]

<p>I recently swithced my AA Line to include the STR Line.  4/4/8/8/1.  I like having the 100% Double Attack however it would be a "bounus" if I was able to use an item, be it fistwrap or knuckles that did not affect base damage but mitigated the loss of stat points from using weapons.  I have never had "Uber" Fabled weapons, only a few Legendary here and there, but when ROK hit I went to the Mastercrafted fighting sticks.  My first few "solo" encounters were fine but soon after I realized there would be no tanking assignments for me in the new T8.  I switched to the "bare-hands" approach to enhance my DPS and play with the "CHI" ability.  I did lose 130 points of STR and 90 points of AGI as well as the adornments and gleaming strikes.  </p><p>Even aside form the cosmetic side of things, i.e. staring at the icon that looks like I forgot to equip something, maybe some wraps with small perks, +2 parry or defense, or knuckles with a proc.  I don't think these would begin to rival the effectiveness of our Raiding bretherens gear. They earned their Fabled weapons and kudos to them, their weapons should be better than my free bare hands, but we (brawlers) did get punked on gear in ROK, and this would be a small detail, that though doesn't affect the Rading Bruiser, would put smiles on the rest of the casual players that have no time or desire to Raid.</p><p>OR they could introduce some Raid gear that allowed those Uber Brawlers to use the STR line rather than turn away from it because they can't use their Fabled weapons in conjunction with it.  Being able to use your Star sharpened cestus with 100% double attack would be nice..no?  </p><p>Just my thoughts ,I know they will differ from others but I respect their opinions as well.</p>

[Vankrooger]

<p>I agree that the STR line should be able to work with fist weapons.</p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">But I think they should decrease the DA aa when weapons are equiped to compensate. Something like, 96% when barefisted and 30% or 40% with weapons equiped. 96% DA with weapons equiped is overpowered.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">Of course, the ability to use the other abilities with weapons equiped should also open up.</span></p>

[silentpsycho]

why is 96% DA OP for brawlers but not for other classes?

[Meilay]

I ammend my previous post, I agree that having weapons + 96% Double Attack would be overpowered, but I still think being allowed to use the abilities + having a decreased rate of Double Attack would be fair. <b>Vankrooger hit it on the head with his post.</b>

[Anjin]

<p>Brawlers <u>tend</u> to generate a higher percentage of their overall DPS (Monks especially) through auto attacks than most other classes.  Adding an ability to 96% DA would seriously overpower them.</p><p>Saying that, I do think that, as a previous poster mentioned, allowing say 30/40% DA would make the STR a viable option, or even making it only fully effective if a brawler is single wielding (rogues have this as an AA option).  Not sure if Claw Reversal is still a bare fists requirement, but that should be non weapon specific if it is.</p>

[tanus]

<p>I through out my opinion in another post...doesnt hurt to keep going.</p><p>Take away the no weapon requirement from abilities 2 and 4.</p><p>For ability 3 add in - If weapons are equipped in slots you gain half benefits from Dbl Attack and no DPS mod.</p><p>BAM! 48% Dbl attack isnt that huge, warriors and rogues get 70%+?  The lowbie brawlers and non-raiding brawlers get what they want and can go harvest shinies, and the brawlers that raid get to have another viable option.</p><p>There ya go, I've solved the problem...we can increase our dps to put us back with the warrior classes...we can use an epic WEAPON with ALL of our AA's...and the whiney brawlers don't get their toes stepped on.</p>

[Pnaxx]

I agree that figuring out a way to modify things if we have weapons would be a good middle point. If there many of you who can not use the STR line anymore becuase of our gear being that good, thenI would assume it is a bummer that the STR Line is obselete. So, what are the chances the Dev's will hear your plea?

[Siatfallen]

Pnaxx:First, just to get it out of the way, I'm arrogant for assuming my oppinion is the correct one? Not really, I just sat down and tested what you are talking about. The STR line is not at all equal to fabled weapons, in fact the difference is pretty staggering. It's closer to (but actually also worse than) adorned legendary equipment on t7. With the added effects in t8 (more DA, +crit etc on weapons) this discrepancy should be getting bigger.You've every right to like or dislike the str-line as-is, but the fact of the matter is, the presentation you give of it is not correct by the numbers and hasn't been since EoF came out. The line is not viable for casual players on max level who group now and then, because as soon as a decent weapon is acquired and you correctly spec for it, you will do better without the str-spec. If my estimation is correct, we're talking about stuff you can quest fairly easily too. This is what points one and two in my previous post covers. Thank you for reading.Third, and here we're talking oppinion, fair enough, I think making a line to be useful only for levelling and then useless afterwards as soon as you acquire halfway decent weapons is broken by design. If you like the idea, I honestly do not follow, but fair enough I guess. That is, however, not what I make of what you write. What you do write is that until you get really good (fabled) weapons, the str spec will be better, and you like that. This is incorrect, see above, and by consequence what you're defending (perhaps unknowingly) is this argument, hence why I address it.The fourth point, in all justice, was assigned to a point brought up often before but not by you in this thread. Better to expect it ahead of time I figured; if this was somehow offensive, I obviously apologise. The wording was aimed at you, the intent not so. Mea culpa.All in all: I'm not attacking your right to an oppinion here, I'm saying you have the mechanics wrong which breaks your argument. I hope this helped clarify as much.As for getting a developer to address this problem, things are sadly not looking good. Their first attempt to do so was a mess, more like a joke than a viable spec to be honest, and since then many posts concerning this problem have come up. The suggested solution has often been in the direction of removing the no-weapon requirements from the 2nd and 4th ability, and then allow a partial bonus (on the order of 20-30% DA, depending on thread and argument) on the third ability when using weapons and the current bonus if you do not, since this would allow both camps of this argument to be happy with the change.So far, nothing has happened, no replies have ever been given by a dev since the major KoS AA revamp (please correct me if I'm wrong) and over all, the matter has been silenced. If they're going to change this, I'd be glad to see it happen, but I will not stop and wait for it. It should have been simple to do so a long time ago, or at the very least let us know they were working on the problem. There hasn't even been a "this is working as intended" reply either.

[Kaoru]

There is an entire 39 page thread (dating from 6/07 to the present) in the testing and feedback forums regarding brawlers and their aa's. Strength line is one of the more debated topics in that thread, so I suggest you take a look as there are tons of ideas thrown around by lots of players. The developers essentially took zero notice and changed nothing.The main issue would be that the sum total of brawlers that are lvl 80 that actually use this line is most likely zero, as the only thing it is good for is leveling a toon and serves no other purpose.

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pnaxx:First, just to get it out of the way, I'm arrogant for assuming my oppinion is the correct one? Not really, I just sat down and tested what you are talking about. The STR line is not at all equal to fabled weapons, in fact the difference is pretty staggering. It's closer to (but actually also worse than) adorned legendary equipment on t7. With the added effects in t8 (more DA, +crit etc on weapons) this discrepancy should be getting bigger.You've every right to like or dislike the str-line as-is, but the fact of the matter is, the presentation you give of it is not correct by the numbers and hasn't been since EoF came out. The line is not viable for casual players on max level who group now and then, because as soon as a decent weapon is acquired and you correctly spec for it, you will do better without the str-spec. If my estimation is correct, we're talking about stuff you can quest fairly easily too. This is what points one and two in my previous post covers. Thank you for reading.Third, and here we're talking oppinion, fair enough, I think making a line to be useful only for levelling and then useless afterwards as soon as you acquire halfway decent weapons is broken by design. If you like the idea, I honestly do not follow, but fair enough I guess. That is, however, not what I make of what you write. What you do write is that until you get really good (fabled) weapons, the str spec will be better, and you like that. This is incorrect, see above, and by consequence what you're defending (perhaps unknowingly) is this argument, hence why I address it.The fourth point, in all justice, was assigned to a point brought up often before but not by you in this thread. Better to expect it ahead of time I figured; if this was somehow offensive, I obviously apologise. The wording was aimed at you, the intent not so. Mea culpa.All in all: I'm not attacking your right to an oppinion here, I'm saying you have the mechanics wrong which breaks your argument. I hope this helped clarify as much.As for getting a developer to address this problem, things are sadly not looking good. Their first attempt to do so was a mess, more like a joke than a viable spec to be honest, and since then many posts concerning this problem have come up. The suggested solution has often been in the direction of removing the no-weapon requirements from the 2nd and 4th ability, and then allow a partial bonus (on the order of 20-30% DA, depending on thread and argument) on the third ability when using weapons and the current bonus if you do not, since this would allow both camps of this argument to be happy with the change.So far, nothing has happened, no replies have ever been given by a dev since the major KoS AA revamp (please correct me if I'm wrong) and over all, the matter has been silenced. If they're going to change this, I'd be glad to see it happen, but I will not stop and wait for it. It should have been simple to do so a long time ago, or at the very least let us know they were working on the problem. There hasn't even been a "this is working as intended" reply either.</blockquote><p>Hey, I can appriciate your argument. And the more I ponder this, the more I am understanding this plight. As a returning player who took off a considerable amount of time, I didn't keep up with the goins ons of this issue. All I rememebr is that the STR Line seemed like a good thing. BUt, now that I am at 71, and playing in RoK, I do notice that we get owned in there from lower level mobs that we used to have no problem with. I am currently looking for some good weapons now. I missed out on the Bo of Flowing Blood selling fer 2.5 P from a grouped member last night. BUt that wasn't the greatest weapon anyway. I am looking for some t7 Fabled or t8 Legendary.</p><p>So anyway, as I listened to your all responces, I realized that there was something I wasn't seeing and have slowly been adjusting my thinking since this post.</p><p> Now, I'm heading out to go kill something in the virtual world!</p>