Deathfyst Citadel broken

[x0rtrun]

So I was mentoring some friends last night and we decided to hit up Deathfyst Citadel to get some XP loot and quests. Big mistake.First we tried breeching the front gates. We headed for cover and held our own for a while. When all the mobs were dropped, we found ourselves stuck in combat. We all had to /camp and reenter the game to fix it. This issue persisted off and on for the entire night.Next issue we encountered was that mobs would get pulled through walls ALL THE TIME. Even when we weren't using ANY out of encounter AoEs we'd be in the middle of a fight when 6 or 7 mobs including a couple named came in through the walls, wiped us, and ran out again. This happened 5 or 6 times in various areas.Another annoying problem was that certain named encounters would reset themselves during combat. One of the princes (i can't remember his name) was especially bad. The one by the tri-floor elevator. He would be nearly dead when he would reset, become unattackable, return to his spawn spot, and then reaggro us at full health. We couldn't kill him because he'd reset at 20% or so every time. To keep from wiping I had to disband and kill him. This fight was also especially bad for pulling adds through walls.The whole night we got a single legendary chest to show for it, but it didn't even contain a legendary item. Just a few adepts and a treasured item. By the time we got to Fyst himself our gear was at 10% and we were starting to feel a little bitter at the needless wipes.We still had fun, but it was a very frustrating 3 hours. The mobs were difficult enough for us since we were mentored down to lvl 36-38. It posed a nice challenge and we had to be on our toes. It would have been way more fun and we would have wanted to come back had it not been so buggy. We ultimately felt like we were beta testing a 3 year old zone (that even received a revamp!)Has anyone else had such a bad experience in this zone or was it just a fluke streak of bad luck?

[Shotneedle]

<p>*shrugs*</p><p>I ran the zone 2 nights ago and there was no problem...encounters might have been aggroing through walls due to your Crane Twirl (or whatever it's called) AE Proc if you're specced into it...</p>

[Rainmare]

if you had any gear with Befuddle, I think it's called, that is an AE deaggro proc on certain RoK gear, that might have been pulling mobs through walls to you. it did that in KC with my gf who was a druid. we wiped a good 3 times due to it going off and pulling mobs through walls or across areas.

[Shotneedle]

or Impact...my troub has something with Impact on it, AE Damage

[x0rtrun]

Well this raises the greater question of way AoE spells can go through supposedly solid walls? This seems like a pretty big bug to me. Why give out AoE abilities if they end up getting you killed and you're better off not even using them. It's like anti-utility.

[Daysy]

We had exactly the same experience there. Orcs can see us to attack us but we supposedly can't see them to retaliate. Only individual attacks can be used or we aggro everything in the adjoining rooms. We get stuck in combat so we don't regenerate. It's a pity because otherwise this would be an enjoyable dungeon.

[Rattfa]

I have run that zone so many times, and never had issues with the things you mention. Yes, you can pull through walls, but so long as everyone in the group knows this, then you can avoid it easily.

[x0rtrun]

How hard is it to stop combat arts and spells from going through walls? I can't use ranged weapons without line of sight. Why can't that check apply to arts? Why should you have to cripple your groups abilities to suit a game play bug?

[steelblueangel]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote>How hard is it to stop combat arts and spells from going through walls? I can't use ranged weapons without line of sight. Why can't that check apply to arts?Why should you have to cripple your groups abilities to suit a game play bug?</blockquote><p>I agree 100% with this statement. I cannot name one dungeon that is not affected by this bug and it limits the group especially casters on what spells they can or cannot use, which makes the group weaker when it cannot utilitze all the spells instead of a limited few that are not aoe's. </p><p>An expample of dungeon that really hinders game play as a direct result of this bug is Unrest. It one person uses an aoe in unrest it becomes a group wipe. Wizzards and warlocks are really held back in dungeons due to their main damage spells being aoe. </p><p>This bug has been around for ever without even an attempt by soe to fix it. New dungeons are made and the same bug follows the players to that dungeon as well. </p><p>We took our guild to Deathfyst Citadel and experienced the same problems as the OP we finally just gave up and left. The priest would come down to about 10% life and then heal full up again and again, the one above the elevator with the pot in the room kept resetting and feared one of our guildies under the steps on trapping them under the steps of the platform with the npc. We got a black wall in the hallway going to the downstairs part and I fell through the world into the sewer area below. </p><p>Yep the Citadel is broken and has been for quite awhile. the priest and the one in the room with the pot have been broken for a very long time, npcs coming through the walls is a bug but it has been around for so long it has become an accepted bug mechanic within all dungeons, thus players are limited on when and where they can use aoe and never in some dungeons such as deathfyst.  The blackwall has been there for awhile but not on every visit to Deathfyst but this was the first time I fell through to the sewers below, and it was not a good time since our guild was in battle and I was the only healer they wiped. So yep the citadel is broken. </p>

[Prodigus]

I've been through this zone several times with the guild since the revamp, and just the last time we had a problem where as soon as we engaged one of the named orcs upstairs, the encounter was immediately shown as giving us no credit; as if someone had yelled.  Of course, this messed up the spawning of Emperor Fyst so all that time was for naught.

[LordPazuzu]

<p>You keep referring to aggroing mobs through walls as a bug.  Trust me, it's not a bug.  It's been that way since the original EverQuest launched in 1999 and persists in the world of Norrath to this very day.  This is an intentional game mechanic.  I remember McQuaid and Co. discussing this years and years ago.  This was a conscious design decision with a two-fold purpose.  It prevents players from exploiting some terrain aspects to their advantage and it intentionally makes dungeon crawling harder on players. With this, players have to remain conscious of their surroundings- what's also going on above, below, and all around- and forcing them to limit their actions according to their position.</p><p>Like it or not, through-the-wall aggro was done on purpose.  I guess I'm just so used to it that I don't see it as a problem.  All it really does is force the player to be careful and play a tighter game in groups.  Sloppy will get you killed.</p>

[Allisia]

Well the zone might have problems, but it's not broken. I've finished it twice in the last month, and we didn't have any problems either time. I actually really enjoy the zone since it was revamped.

[Terron]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>We took our guild to Deathfyst Citadel and experienced the same problems as the OP we finally just gave up and left. The priest would come down to about 10% life and then heal full up again and again, the one above the elevator with the pot in the room kept resetting and feared one of our guildies under the steps on trapping them under the steps of the platform with the npc. We got a black wall in the hallway going to the downstairs part and I fell through the world into the sewer area below. </p><p>Yep the Citadel is broken and has been for quite awhile. the priest and the one in the room with the pot have been broken for a very long time, npcs coming through the walls is a bug but it has been around for so long it has become an accepted bug mechanic within all dungeons, thus players are limited on when and where they can use aoe and never in some dungeons such as deathfyst.   </p></blockquote>The priest can heal himself very well. That is not a bug. That is how a high priest should be. If you have a low DPS group he is a hard encounter. Much harder than a normal heroic named, but the problem is that normal heroic nameds are laughably easy for a full group. The DFCs one are much better balanced.The prince in the tower resets if you pull him any distance from his starting position. The solution is obvious. Fight him where he starts and he does not reset.Mobs aggroing through walls is annoying, but not specific to DFC and if you know the zone you can use blue AEs safely. I've tanked it with a SK doing room pulls and AEing away.

[Aidyn]

<p>DFC is probably one of my most fave zones and I've started running through there again on my Coercer recently.</p><p>As the above poster said, the prince will reset if he is pulled across the room. We usually rush him and stand at his location.</p><p>The Alchemist (room with the big pot), she can be a pain and will charm a member of your group and send them after you!!! </p><p> As for the Priest.  Well he is a priest, healing is what priests do best!!!!</p><p>AoE through walls.. Bah been a <i>'game enhancement'</i> right from the start, its not DFC specific</p>

[x0rtrun]

<cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You keep referring to aggroing mobs through walls as a bug.  Trust me, it's not a bug.  It's been that way since the original EverQuest launched in 1999 and persists in the world of Norrath to this very day.  This is an intentional game mechanic.  I remember McQuaid and Co. discussing this years and years ago.  This was a conscious design decision with a two-fold purpose.  It prevents players from exploiting some terrain aspects to their advantage and it intentionally makes dungeon crawling harder on players. With this, players have to remain conscious of their surroundings- what's also going on above, below, and all around- and forcing them to limit their actions according to their position.</p><p>Like it or not, through-the-wall aggro was done on purpose.  I guess I'm just so used to it that I don't see it as a problem.  All it really does is force the player to be careful and play a tighter game in groups.  Sloppy will get you killed.</p></blockquote>Corpse runs were a conscious design decision too, but even that was eventually changed because it didn't add anything much other than frustration. I see mobs stuck in the floor because they aggroed through the wall in much the same way. Using a cheap and buggy game mechanic like wall aggro to make the game more of a challenge is pretty weak and shows a lack of effort and creativity. If they want to limit AoEs and such, just have non-aggro roamers wander the halls. At least that way you aren't going to be getting killed by an unseen mob stuck in the floor that can hit you but you can't hit it. There's no good reason to have it still be in game if it was done on purpose. If it's a bug that can't be fixed for other reasons that's something else entirely.

[liveja]

<cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>An expample of dungeon that really hinders game play as a direct result of this bug is Unrest. It one person uses an aoe in unrest it becomes a group wipe. Wizzards and warlocks are really held back in dungeons due to their main damage spells being aoe. </p></blockquote><p>People should learn the difference between those AOES that are *encounter locked*, & those which are not.</p><p>If you're using AOEs in Unrest that are not encounter-locked, then you deserve to get your group wiped.</p>

[x0rtrun]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>steelblueangel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>An expample of dungeon that really hinders game play as a direct result of this bug is Unrest. It one person uses an aoe in unrest it becomes a group wipe. Wizzards and warlocks are really held back in dungeons due to their main damage spells being aoe. </p></blockquote><p>People should learn the difference between those AOES that are *encounter locked*, & those which are not.</p><p>If you're using AOEs in Unrest that are not encounter-locked, then you deserve to get your group wiped.</p></blockquote><b>"If they want to limit AoEs and such, just have non-aggro roamers wander the halls."</b>Don't confuse avoiding a bug with skill. Here's the difference:If there are non-aggro roamers around, you need to have an ounce of common sense to know that your out of encounter AoE will aggro them and cause problems. This is intuitive gameplay.If there are no other engaged mobs around you, you would assume that you are free to use your abilities as they were intended. It is not obvious that monsters will fly out of the walls (or stay stuck in them as the case may be) and attack you from apparently no where. This is non-intuitive gameplay. It requires no skill. It only requires that you learn to avoid a bug by limiting your actions. Not only that but it unfairly punishes classes that rely heavily on AoE attacks.If the goal really is to keep things difficult, here's a couple more creative, intuitive ways to do it. Rather than limiting only AoEs in dungeons, why not give mobs some imunities to damage types. Oh wait, they already got rid of that. Ok, how bout have mobs spawn adds when certain damage types are used. Ex: have a fire based creature spawn a fire based helper when he gets hit by a fire attack. Your group would need to be aware of how their attacks work and what they do. This forces people to adapt to the mob in an intuitive way and doesn't rely on a glitchy mechanic like wall aggro.

[Grimfang]

Btw, since no one mentioned it.You said you were "locked" in combat mode and no mobs were to be found. I have the explanation as to why (and btw, the citadel isnt broken... it is infact my most fav. place since after the revamp. I take every oportunity to mentor down and go there).Here is the reason why you never saw any mobs that had aggroed you: The ARCHERS on the ramparts. They are stationary even if you aggro them. And yes, the out of encounter AE's hits them too if you are unlucky. If that happens the next time you go there, go up on the rampart/wall and kill the archer/archers.Usually when I go there with a nice grp and a healer (beside me) that knows what to do, sometimes I (for fun) use an out-of-encounter AE CA and aggro 2 floors .... THAT is fun to do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (the bank area)

[Morticus]

Great thread you all have going here, I just wanted to mention something regarding aggro issues in the dungeon.Back when I revamped it, I took a look at all of the older complaints surrounding the dungeon (there were quite a few) and attempted to fix everything I could.  Since the zone geometry is so close together (walls, ceiling, floors, etc), aggro can be a bit of a problem.  Unfortunately at the time, we didn't have any resources available that the team could have dedicated to completely redoing the geometry of the dungeon.  That being said, everything from a design standpoint that was in there previously was completely gutted by me and then redesigned from the ground up.  I know there are still a few bugs in that older dungeon and we're not happy with them being there, but there are other things to be working on that take precedence.  Trust me, we strive for quality at every turn, even if it may seem that's not the case from your perspective.Regarding the challenge, it's simply Risk Vs. Reward.  I wanted to give very good loot for those brave enough to venture into the citadel; but in order to do so, the challenge would have to be scaled appropriately.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[x0rtrun]

Don't get me wrong. I like the zone. It just seemed to be excessively frustrating at times for no reason other than what appeared to be bugginess. I'm sure if we ran it a few more times we could compensate and have a blast. Just sayin that for our first time through it gave us the impression of being really broken. Regardless, the more interesting discussion is about mobs aggroing through the walls. From your comments it sounds like it's purely a matter of geometry issues rather than a conscious design decision. Is it just a regrettable fact of the EQ2 engine or what?

[skinandbones]

Man but does nearly everything have to have that knockback spell?  One hell of an annoying spell.

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You keep referring to aggroing mobs through walls as a bug.  Trust me, it's not a bug.  It's been that way since the original EverQuest launched in 1999 and persists in the world of Norrath to this very day.  This is an intentional game mechanic.  I remember McQuaid and Co. discussing this years and years ago.  This was a conscious design decision with a two-fold purpose.  It prevents players from exploiting some terrain aspects to their advantage and it intentionally makes dungeon crawling harder on players. With this, players have to remain conscious of their surroundings- what's also going on above, below, and all around- and forcing them to limit their actions according to their position.</p><p>Like it or not, through-the-wall aggro was done on purpose.  I guess I'm just so used to it that I don't see it as a problem.  All it really does is force the player to be careful and play a tighter game in groups.  Sloppy will get you killed.</p></blockquote>Corpse runs were a conscious design decision too, but even that was eventually changed because it didn't add anything much other than frustration. I see mobs stuck in the floor because they aggroed through the wall in much the same way. Using a cheap and buggy game mechanic like wall aggro to make the game more of a challenge is pretty weak and shows a lack of effort and creativity. If they want to limit AoEs and such, just have non-aggro roamers wander the halls. At least that way you aren't going to be getting killed by an unseen mob stuck in the floor that can hit you but you can't hit it. There's no good reason to have it still be in game if it was done on purpose. If it's a bug that can't be fixed for other reasons that's something else entirely.</blockquote>You're touching on two entirely seperate issues with this one.  Aggroing through walls is not a bug.  Mobs getting stuck in floors and warping through geometry- that's buggy pathing.  Unfortunately, buggy pathing is also a long time Norrathian tradition.

[einar4]

<cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LordPazuzu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You keep referring to aggroing mobs through walls as a bug.  Trust me, it's not a bug.  It's been that way since the original EverQuest launched in 1999 and persists in the world of Norrath to this very day.  This is an intentional game mechanic.  I remember McQuaid and Co. discussing this years and years ago.  This was a conscious design decision with a two-fold purpose.  It prevents players from exploiting some terrain aspects to their advantage and it intentionally makes dungeon crawling harder on players. With this, players have to remain conscious of their surroundings- what's also going on above, below, and all around- and forcing them to limit their actions according to their position.</p><p>Like it or not, through-the-wall aggro was done on purpose.  I guess I'm just so used to it that I don't see it as a problem.  All it really does is force the player to be careful and play a tighter game in groups.  Sloppy will get you killed.</p></blockquote>Corpse runs were a conscious design decision too, but even that was eventually changed because it didn't add anything much other than frustration. I see mobs stuck in the floor because they aggroed through the wall in much the same way. Using a cheap and buggy game mechanic like wall aggro to make the game more of a challenge is pretty weak and shows a lack of effort and creativity. If they want to limit AoEs and such, just have non-aggro roamers wander the halls. At least that way you aren't going to be getting killed by an unseen mob stuck in the floor that can hit you but you can't hit it. There's no good reason to have it still be in game if it was done on purpose. If it's a bug that can't be fixed for other reasons that's something else entirely.</blockquote>You're touching on two entirely seperate issues with this one.  Aggroing through walls is not a bug.  Mobs getting stuck in floors and warping through geometry- that's buggy pathing.  Unfortunately, buggy pathing is also a long time Norrathian tradition.</blockquote><p> Aggro through walls/floors _is_ a bug.  If a virtual wall is said to exist in a dungeon's design, then it should have the properties of a wall.  </p><p> Unfortunately, it is not something you only see in old dungeons either.  In unrest it is possible for one of the Hag's creatures to throw you into the ceiling, resulting in one of the gelatinous cubes from the moat to warp through the wall to attack your party. </p><p> MOBs disappearing in the floor is not only a "feature" of unrest, but is also fairly pervasive throughout Kunark's zones.  You can call it part of the challenge, but that doesn't make it something other than a bug. </p><p> I remember the discussions with Aradune... this was a bug that they made a concious decision NOT TO FIX for the reasons given.  That is far and away much different from saying something is an intentional design feature. </p>

[LordPazuzu]

<cite>Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Aggro through walls/floors _is_ a bug.  If a virtual wall is said to exist in a dungeon's design, then it should have the properties of a wall.  </p></blockquote><p>You would think, but no, it's really not a bug.  Calling it a bug implies that it's not working as intended.  Like it or not, it is.  Just because it doesn't make logical sense doesn't make it a bug.  It's been a staple of EQ and EQ2 dungeon play for coming up on 9 years now.  </p><p>In SOE land open AoE+dungeon=group wipe</p>

[Tallhart]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regarding the challenge, it's simply Risk Vs. Reward.  I wanted to give very good loot for those brave enough to venture into the citadel; but in order to do so, the challenge would have to be scaled appropriately.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Well, it used to be really good loot anyway ... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The Blood Iron armor <b>WAS</b> great. I worked really hard to get the recipes for my tailor and my guild's armorer. Countless runs through DFC (BTW Morticus, we all loved the revamped zone. 'Bugs' and all. Thanks again! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). Not to mention the hours I spent killing miners for the ore to make sets for a few of my alts. Now, most of them have leveled past the armor except for my Wizard. Poor Wizzy ... he's also my Sage, and I pretty much keep him chained to his scribing desk. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway, I digress. On the rare occasion I do take him out in the field now, I feel a little short changed on the armor. Blood Iron stuff used to be better than the MasterCrafted of the same level, justifying the extra effort required to obtain it. That's not the case after the post-RoK retune MasterCrafted Armor received. Any word on when the <b>Legendary</b> crafted Blood Iron stuff will receive a similar boost making it better than the 'regular' MasterCrafted again? I believe Domino said something to the effect of "I'll look into it, but it's not a high priority." <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Please excuse the paraphrase, but I couldn't find the original quote when I just looked) I'm just hoping we can get that priority bumped up a bit.

[Morticus]

<cite>Tallhart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Blood Iron stuff used to be better than the MasterCrafted of the same level, justifying the extra effort required to obtain it. That's not the case after the post-RoK retune MasterCrafted Armor received. Any word on when the <b>Legendary</b> crafted Blood Iron stuff will receive a similar boost making it better than the 'regular' MasterCrafted again?</blockquote>It's still decent gear and if it's in need of a retooling then I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point.

[Warpax]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tallhart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Blood Iron stuff used to be better than the MasterCrafted of the same level, justifying the extra effort required to obtain it. That's not the case after the post-RoK retune MasterCrafted Armor received. Any word on when the <b>Legendary</b> crafted Blood Iron stuff will receive a similar boost making it better than the 'regular' MasterCrafted again?</blockquote>It's still decent gear and if it's in need of a retooling then I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point.</blockquote>Morticus, you should run for pubic office!

[Wildmage]

would it be feasible to remove the charmer named mob from the list of mobs required to be killed to spawn Emperor Fyst, so people can finish the multitude of HQs that require him.

[TheSco]

<p>46 zerker, 48 coc, and me a 57 warden mentored down to 48. We killed all the names with problems but we did finish it.  The charming mob broke a few times and charmed my zerker.  The main thing we did was reattack when a mob broke.</p><p>I told my Coc that it really felt like adventure in that place.  Getting knock around, feared, and charmed was pretty fun.  Did not like the breaking of the mobs but still had fun.</p>

[Kru]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tallhart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Blood Iron stuff used to be better than the MasterCrafted of the same level, justifying the extra effort required to obtain it. That's not the case after the post-RoK retune MasterCrafted Armor received. Any word on when the <b>Legendary</b> crafted Blood Iron stuff will receive a similar boost making it better than the 'regular' MasterCrafted again?</blockquote>It's still decent gear and if it's in need of a retooling then I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point.</blockquote>This is something I never want to hear from a developer.  "I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point?"Wow..coming from SOE, who has a reputation of taking forever to fix issues (especially in PVP), it worries me to actually hear a dev say this.  When devs say it's being worked on now, the problem either never gets fixed, or takes another two to three LU's to be fixed.  When a dev admits he isn't sure it's being looked into, and he isn't sure when it will be fixed, we can just assume it will be lost in the hundreds of other issues/bugs, and probably never get looked at altogether.

[Terron]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It's still decent gear and if it's in need of a retooling then I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point.</blockquote>Sorry, but some at least of it is not decent any more in comparison to the revamped mastercrafted.It used to be very well balanced with mastercrafted, but now level 32 mastercrafted is much better than level 37  blood iron armour, at least for some classes.My newest alt, a conjurer, recently passed 37 and I looked at the blood iron armour and saw that it was outclassed by the level 32 mastercrafted.Even so, DFC is still one of the best instances in the game.Once you know your way around it is possible to use AoEs.I have tanked it with my SK using them.

[lilmohi]

considering all the things developers are busy with right now...i think a small niche of crafted armor from a single t4 zone is (and should be) far down on their priority list. Good grief, by the time you can actually get blood armor you already out leveled it. So for most people its really only good for selling for twinkers. I'd rather have epics, guild halls, or even bug fixes.

[Terron]

<cite>lilmohi wrote:</cite><blockquote>considering all the things developers are busy with right now...i think a small niche of crafted armor from a single t4 zone is (and should be) far down on their priority list. Good grief, by the time you can actually get blood armor you already out leveled it. </blockquote>Blood iron armour was better than mastercrafted ebon for some classes.You would have needed to get to level 50-52 to outlevel it.It was certainly possible to get some long before then.

[Tallhart]

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Blood iron armour was better than mastercrafted ebon for some classes.You would have needed to get to level 50-52 to outlevel it.It was certainly possible to get some long before then.</blockquote>Agreed. Before it was about equal to the level 42 MC for most classes, plus it had the set bonus, making it a bit better overall. So you could replace the level 32 MC at level 37, and wear it to 52. Now it's not really better that the level 32 MC for most classes, and a fair bit worse than the 42 MC, so there's no point in switching to it at all. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As other people have said, there are higher priority items for the devs to be working on ... just hope this doesn't get lost forever. Oh well. At least I got to wear it for 15 levels on 2 alts, and made a bit of money on crafting it, before it was effectively nerfed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Isolation]

<p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Yeah that happened to me <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">once. Me and my friend were killing this Prince and then suddenly after we killed it This Chef dude went throgh the wal and threw us off guard. We almost died.</span></b></span></p>

[Morticus]

<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This is something I never want to hear from a developer.  "I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point?"Wow..coming from SOE, who has a reputation of taking forever to fix issues (especially in PVP), it worries me to actually hear a dev say this.  When devs say it's being worked on now, the problem either never gets fixed, or takes another two to three LU's to be fixed.  When a dev admits he isn't sure it's being looked into, and he isn't sure when it will be fixed, we can just assume it will be lost in the hundreds of other issues/bugs, and probably never get looked at altogether.</blockquote>Believe me, I want them to be valued items.I feel that I have ownership of those armor sets to some degree, but it's just not feasible to touch them right now.  Once the epics are finished and any bugs relating to them are squashed I'll talk with Fyreflyte about the armor sets.  Until then, I can't make any promises.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Snowdonia]

Morticus, While you're at it, any chance you can make the chest pieces from the Agtak's Hit List quest tradeable? It's so annoying trying to make a full set of one of those armor types for a char, only to realize you can't get the chest piece because it's no trade. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[vladsamier]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Great thread you all have going here, I just wanted to mention something regarding aggro issues in the dungeon.Back when I revamped it, I took a look at all of the older complaints surrounding the dungeon (there were quite a few) and attempted to fix everything I could.  Since the zone geometry is so close together (walls, ceiling, floors, etc), aggro can be a bit of a problem.  Unfortunately at the time, we didn't have any resources available that the team could have dedicated to completely redoing the geometry of the dungeon.  That being said, everything from a design standpoint that was in there previously was completely gutted by me and then redesigned from the ground up.  I know there are still a few bugs in that older dungeon and we're not happy with them being there, but there are other things to be working on that take precedence.  Trust me, we strive for quality at every turn, even if it may seem that's not the case from your perspective.Regarding the challenge, it's simply Risk Vs. Reward.  I wanted to give very good loot for those brave enough to venture into the citadel; but in order to do so, the challenge would have to be scaled appropriately.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>It's nice that you guys try to achieve that in content that is 3 tiers behind, yet there is zones like Veeshan's Peak where there is NO risk vs reward. Currently there is only risk, because the loot that is coming from that zone is SUBPAR to loot that can be obtained via solo quest. Sometimes I think that it would be more beneficial if instead of calling a raid on Veeshan's I call 4 seperate groups going into Crypt of Agony or Charsis: Maiden's as they provide greater rewards than most of the loot in Veeshan's and only require having 6 people online to do.

[Freydinessa]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This is something I never want to hear from a developer.  "I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point?"Wow..coming from SOE, who has a reputation of taking forever to fix issues (especially in PVP), it worries me to actually hear a dev say this.  When devs say it's being worked on now, the problem either never gets fixed, or takes another two to three LU's to be fixed.  When a dev admits he isn't sure it's being looked into, and he isn't sure when it will be fixed, we can just assume it will be lost in the hundreds of other issues/bugs, and probably never get looked at altogether.</blockquote>Believe me, I want them to be valued items.I feel that I have ownership of those armor sets to some degree, but it's just not feasible to touch them right now.  Once the epics are finished and any bugs relating to them are squashed I'll talk with Fyreflyte about the armor sets.  Until then, I can't make any promises.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>The Orc Citadel is definitely a highlight in the - now - first half of the game, level wise. And yes, there are a few issues with it, but the variety in enemy combat styles is most refreshing. You've got Mezzers, Charmers, Fearers, Knockbackers, and Healer mobs that all pose significantly different challenges for a group. But as has been stated above, the loot and value of items from there, specifically the Blood Iron Ore sets, are very disappointing. But this is not unique to Deathfist. So many zones have been hurt badly by the reduction in the relative quality/imbalance of items and loot. <b>Morticus</b>, when you talk to <b>FyreFlyte</b>, or whoever is appropriate, could you PLEASE try and push for item balance to be brought back into the game, and the whole game. We've got lvl 12 items from Timorous Deep that are preferable over some level 24 items and beyond; There is a massive, massive gulf now between handcrafted and mastercrafted items; Yes, the Blood Iron Ore is very disappointing, Now that Master crafted items have been updated; Some treasured Items are better than legendary items. Fabled items from the Kingdom of the Sky are often laughed at, and so on.<i>Surely</i> you Developers at SOE have guidelines to work within when determining all the stats that make up an item. And <i>surely</i> these guidelines take into account possible future expansions in the level cap. Why then are we seeing such game breaking variation?. Sooo, many problems talked about on the Forums here these days can be seen to have their roots in imbalanced items. What can be more important than Fixing this? As it effects every player & every zone in the game.

[Tallhart]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>This is something I never want to hear from a developer.  "I'm sure someone will get around to taking a look at it at some point?"Wow..coming from SOE, who has a reputation of taking forever to fix issues (especially in PVP), it worries me to actually hear a dev say this.  When devs say it's being worked on now, the problem either never gets fixed, or takes another two to three LU's to be fixed.  When a dev admits he isn't sure it's being looked into, and he isn't sure when it will be fixed, we can just assume it will be lost in the hundreds of other issues/bugs, and probably never get looked at altogether.</blockquote>Believe me, I want them to be valued items.I feel that I have ownership of those armor sets to some degree, but it's just not feasible to touch them right now.  Once the epics are finished and any bugs relating to them are squashed I'll talk with Fyreflyte about the armor sets.  Until then, I can't make any promises.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Thanks Morticus! DFC, post-revamp, is the best mid-level group instance in the game based on fun, challenge, and reward. Current itemization aside, thanks again for that! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yes, it's a little sad that the reward side of it has slipped recently for those still in Blood Iron Armor or who were working towards it. But that shouldn't detract from the effort you put in revamping it, and I'm very happy you still care enough about it to champion a rework of the loot. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I understand that development is under the gun getting the Epics out and don't have time right now to re-evaluate Blood Iron sets, no less the full look at itemization Mirtai is calling for (as much as that might be a good idea when you guys have time)! But I appreciate your willingness to open development discussions on the topic at all, once some time becomes available. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />That said, in the meantime that lost twinkers market for Tailors and Armorers is tragic. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> OK, other people might not be feeling my pain here. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But seriously, I'm starting to feel a little guilty every time I sell a piece of the stuff (not that that's happening a lot now-a-days <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). And not everyone is wearing it on a twink. I had someone send me an in-game mail last week ... they were scrimping and saving to get Blood Iron Ore for their main and wanted to know if they really needed a full set, or would just the chest do (and how much would I charge them to make it)? I told them that if they were going to do it at all, they should get the full set for the set bonus, but that I wouldn't get Blood Iron at this point in time. Either wait to see if BI gets a boost (go play an alt or something), or get the MasterCrafted. Right now MC is cheaper and better.

[Freydinessa]

<cite>Tallhart wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>... other people might not be feeling my pain here. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> But seriously, I'm starting to feel a little guilty every time I sell a piece of the stuff (not that that's happening a lot now-a-days <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />)....</blockquote>I totally agree with you Tallhart. In the last couple of days, i've been to deathfist twice with a new player to outfit his dirge with the harmonious set. He's been so excited about it and is constantly telling his guild leader what he's doing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. It's been great to be in that environment with him playing and feeling their excitement and appreciation once we completed the set. I just didn't have the heart to tell him that the Ebon Master crafted set is far superior. Granted, he probably won't get a full set - of maybe any - of ebon, but i'm sure he'll be disappointed still when the gear he's worked so hard for in the last couple of days is super-seeded so quickly.

[Morticus]

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Morticus,While you're at it, any chance you can make the chest pieces from the Agtak's Hit List quest tradeable? It's so annoying trying to make a full set of one of those armor types for a char, only to realize you can't get the chest piece because it's no trade. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>When I have some time to take another look at the dungeon I'll review this as well.  You're not the first person to mention this, so I'm sure it's in need of some attention.

[Snowdonia]

You're a star Morticus, ta!

[Terron]

<cite>Morticus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Believe me, I want them to be valued items.I feel that I have ownership of those armor sets to some degree, but it's just not feasible to touch them right now.  Once the epics are finished and any bugs relating to them are squashed I'll talk with Fyreflyte about the armor sets.  Until then, I can't make any promises.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Thank you.I know there a lot of other itemization problems, but I feel that since DFC is one of the best instances in the game it should give good rewards for its level so that even those who are mostly concerned with loot will be happy to go there, so this is one of the more serious.Epics should take priority though.

[Freydinessa]

Just on the 'broken' part, i went through again the other day and not a single thing went wrong, and i made sure to AoE where i could. You can do it, just have to be aware and a little careful. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[RaeganOfRathe]

<p>Here's a question that has brought me to this thread.  And since the topic has touched on armor sets, in particular, those that are found in DFC, I am hoping that someone will be able to help.  My SK just turned 32, (well 35 now, but the levels fly) and he is wearing his T4 MC gear.  I went to the broker to start stocking up the ebon for his next set.  No biggie, ebon is cheaper than feysteel right?  Ha, well now that its part of the tradeskill epic, ebon has shot through the roof.  There is no way I can justify paying 3P per piece for an alt.  So now I am looking for my T5 alternative gear.  I see talk about blood iron, but as I read it seems that my Feysteel will be better.  I thought I read somewhere about a new set of armor from DFC that was almost as good as Ebon, but maybe I was just reading about the T4 stuff.  Does anyone have any advice on this?  Is there some good armor drops to suit a T5, at least long enough to get to 52, where I can go back to MC?</p><p>Oh, also..  I have been wanting to get groups for this zone.  Is this instance doable for a single group?  or is it for 2x raid only?</p><p>Thanks for any help.</p><p>--Cozumel/Cedo/Vorst/Julie  (Befallen)</p>

[Freydinessa]

<cite>RaeganOfRathe wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Here's a question that has brought me to this thread.  And since the topic has touched on armor sets, in particular, those that are found in DFC, I am hoping that someone will be able to help.  My SK just turned 32, (well 35 now, but the levels fly) and he is wearing his T4 MC gear.  I went to the broker to start stocking up the ebon for his next set.  No biggie, ebon is cheaper than feysteel right?  Ha, well now that its part of the tradeskill epic, ebon has shot through the roof.  There is no way I can justify paying 3P per piece for an alt.  So now I am looking for my T5 alternative gear.  I see talk about blood iron, but as I read it seems that my Feysteel will be better.  I thought I read somewhere about a new set of armor from DFC that was almost as good as Ebon, but maybe I was just reading about the T4 stuff.  Does anyone have any advice on this?  Is there some good armor drops to suit a T5, at least long enough to get to 52, where I can go back to MC?</p><p>Oh, also..  I have been wanting to get groups for this zone.  Is this instance doable for a single group?  or is it for 2x raid only?</p><p>Thanks for any help.</p><p>--Cozumel/Cedo/Vorst/Julie  (Befallen)</p></blockquote>Blood Iron Ore Armors will be improved i've heard - but as when this happens no one is quite sure. It is better than Feysteel, but is definitely closer in quality to Feysteel than Ebon. Your basic options as i see it are, just keep your Feysteel till lvl 52, replacing it with any pieces you come across that are better than it till you're able to wear Cobalt armor, Purchase or forge a set of Blood Ore armor that will get you through to level 52, Harvest for your own Ebon rares and have it made, or keep a close eye on the broker and update your armor as you can with what is affordable when you can until lvl 52.There is the Orclord Armor set you can get in Deathfist, i cannot remember the stats/relative useability of it, but my guess is it's pretty medicore in comparison to feysteel as it's "Treasured" and the imbalance between Mastercrafted and Treasured is Huge at the moment (another MAJOR issue entirely). Of course there are legendary and Fabled drops in the Citadel you can get too, if you're very lucky. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.As Far as the Citadel Itself goes, It is a group Instance. And as you can guess from the enemies around Zek leading up to it, it is designed for levels 39-45 or so.

[Allisia]

<cite>Mirtai@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>There is the Orclord Armor set you can get in Deathfist, i cannot remember the stats/relative useability of it, but my guess is it's pretty medicore in comparison to feysteel as it's "Treasured" and the imbalance between Mastercrafted and Treasured is Huge at the moment (another MAJOR issue entirely).</blockquote>I don't see any imbalance between Mastercrafted and Treasured gear.  Nor do I see it as an issue at all, much less a "MAJOR issue".  For there to be any significant demand Mastercrafted gear has to be near Legendary quality or there's no point in it existing.

[Isolation]

<span style="font-family: impact,chicago;">I didnt really experiance many glitches.</span>

[Ther]

<cite>Arrex@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirtai@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>There is the Orclord Armor set you can get in Deathfist, i cannot remember the stats/relative useability of it, but my guess is it's pretty medicore in comparison to feysteel as it's "Treasured" and the imbalance between Mastercrafted and Treasured is Huge at the moment (another MAJOR issue entirely).</blockquote>I don't see any imbalance between Mastercrafted and Treasured gear.  Nor do I see it as an issue at all, much less a "MAJOR issue".  For there to be any significant demand Mastercrafted gear has to be near Legendary quality or there's no point in it existing.</blockquote><p>MC gear, all the way up though T7, <b>destroys</b> treasured gear, outclasses all but a few exceptional legendary items, and even wins out over many fabled items. There <b>is</b> a major issue with MC gear; it's completely out of hand in its power, especially considering how easy it is to obtain.</p><p>Don't let "treasured" fool you. Many treasured dungeon sets are considerably harder to acquire than MC gear, and generally require you to be a few levels above that of the gear itself to acquire it. MC gear ought to be between treasured and legendary in power, not out-classing everything in its tier.</p><p>That said, while MC gear does need a nerf, tons of old gear, treasured through fabled, needs to be adjusted. You've got treasured EoF collection rewards better than "old world" fabled of the same level, treasured drops worse than handcrafted, and legendary and fabled gear that have nothing what-so-ever about them to justify their rarity tag.</p><p>This goes far beyond a DFC issue, but you can see many prime examples of this imbalance there.</p>