Are troubs really that bad?

[Lateral]

<p>Every time I see a class population breakdown, troubadours are always the least played class, only sometimes beaten by Coercers, but since troubs are available to both good & evil then technically theyre the least chosen class to play. Even the FAQ's at the top, the people writing them take a QQ Emo stance and claim the class is hopelessly broken and will never recieve anything good from SOE. Furthermore it seems like a large % of high level troubadours exist only as buffbots being 2boxed or someone making one for a guild then basically going AFK providing buffs for a raid. So, my question, whats so bad about this class? Obviously you cant play one expecting to solo ^^^ toe-to-toe from what I can tell..without mez-kiting for like 20 minutes, and i'm okay with that, group content shouldn't be soloable in the first place.</p><p>  So, do troubs really stink that badly even soloing normal solo content? like mowing down green/blue/whites for quests..killing the occasional named ^ mob, are they at least capable of that without ungodly twinked gear/masters? I havent ever played one past level 10 or so, but since leveling up in this game basically consists of killing solo content and not ^^^ nameds.. it shouldnt be that painful or slow to level one given that you get speed, stealth, evac, etc, right?</p>

[Jehannum]

<p>Speed?  Check, almost as much as a druid.  Out of combat, anyhow.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Stealth?  Check.  Good to get to places.  Not so much for leveling.</p><p>Evac?  Check. Good to get out of places.  Not so much for leveling.</p><p>DPS that'd make a Templar blush?  Check.</p><p>Mitigation to rival a Warlock?  Check.</p><p>Avoidance on par with a Shadowknight?  Check.</p><p>Heals to rival a Guardian?  You know it, baby.  As long as he doesn't have the Fury 'inherited' heal going.</p><p>I know I'm painting a bit of a bleak picture here, but I do love playing my troubador.  We're not generally considered a particularly solo-capable class though, mainly on account of the fact that while we're near-indestructible against a single opponent, our speed is inversely proportional to the extent to which we need to exercise our invulnerability.</p><p>In melee, we tend to drop pretty quickly even against similar-leveled solo content (unless exceptionally well-geared).  Kiting is slower since it omits our melee and close-range abilities, as well as limiting those which can't be cast on the run, however it all but eliminates opposing melee damage.  Mezzing eliminates all potential for retaliation (or at least, if managed properly it can do) but slows us significantly more, since each damage cycle must be tailored to the opponent, and needs to wait for the mez (and often stuns) to refresh.</p><p>Now, compare our capability in a group.  I increase everyone else's capability to receive, deal, mitigate, etc to a combined benefit of near 20% per toon (mind you I haven't done the numbers in ages, but they should still be close enough).  So while I personally contribute relatively little raw dps, in a full group of 6 I not only pull my own weight as best I can, but give everyone else enough of a boost to amount to a 7th effective member.  It's all about synergy, and unfortunately there's no synergy while soloing.  Makes the effort to gain levels difficult in what appears to have become a primarily solo grind to 80.</p><p>Edit - MJK rocks; I <i>assume</i> that's where your forum name's from?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Banshye]

<p>I have a 70 wizard who I played for years - but they are literally a dime a dozen and finding a raid spot as a wizard is a challenge. I always loved having a troub in my group when I was wizzing though so I rolled one up last spring.</p><p>As my sig file will demonstrate, he's now level 80 and I have to say - I don't feel useless at all. There was a time about 12 levels ago when RoK first launched that I was struggling with soloing but another bard-friend and I worked it out together and I'm killing solo just fine now.</p><p>It's sword/board while soloing - pull with the bow, snare, shout, bow style etc until it gets up close. Then its melee styles and damage spells. With AA, the shield allows me to knock down. It isn't as fast as soloing with a wizard but its real effective. </p><p>In groups, as the previous poster said - I'm buffing the other members a ton. I dual-wield of course. My groupmates are proc'ing and crit'ing more often, with health song and power song we're able to pull faster. I've got good crowd control with a single target mez and a charm.</p><p>Caster oriented groups love me. Even melee oriented groups like me - I'm not as effective as a dirge would be in that setup, but I'm certainly not ineffective either. My Jester's Cap and Perfection of the Maestro are in constant use - making the other dps'rs feel like a real hero every couple of minutes. I even use JC on healers in a tough fight - and they heal at lunatic speed.</p><p>I don't know why there are so few troubs - probably because they don't hit for 12,000 and they have the buff-bot rep. But if you're behind the keyboard and you're trying to be good at the class, there's plenty here at your fingertips to keep you busy... and if you're not a peckerwood, that old friends list is going to grow and grow. I get tells all the time asking me to come to groups, raids, etc... even when I'm not LFG... people who I've grouped with before and they are requesting my services.</p><p> So no, I don't think troubs are bad. Perhaps misunderstood.</p>

[MulluwenSingalong]

<p>First of all, I have been playing my troubador since the game is out, so for more than 3 years right now.</p><p> I remember the troubador before we got the nerf bat hitting us, when we were good and that people REALLY wanted us in group (and there was only few of us, so we ALWAYS had groups hahaha! =) ). </p><p>Than came the nerf bat, giving our melee buffs to dirge and giving us some caster buff. What the [Removed for Content]? Wasnt troubador the bard that was BUFFING the group and Dirge the bard that was DEBUFFING the mob? How can't I buff the darn melee now? (well I can, but not like I used to do).</p><p>Yes, soloing aint easy has a troubador and its even worse in RoK, but HEY, I find it interesting. Get a good round shield, put some AA in the STA line and you are set. You just know how to kite (Ahhh I loved kitting in EQ1 =p) or how to mez, put debuffs, snare, sneak, stab, stun, dmg songs, mez, etc. It's long, but effective, you wont loose too much hp and you'll get the mob down.</p><p>And yes, you can kill named mob. Well, I tried some lvl 74 ^^^ mob when I was lvl 73, but he resisted my darn mez a couple times, so I had to run, but I'm pretty sure I could have handled him without being resisted that much. I can easily kill the ^named mob I find everywhere in RoK.</p><p>Have fun with the class, we are not the best DPS, nor a good tank. We are a jack of all trades, master of none! (love that sentence from EQ1).</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>This question has been debated on this board a long time without a lot of agreement. I find the troubadour to be frustrating and somewhat boring. I play him from time-to-time when the guild begs or I otherwise feel motivated. Otherwise, he stays benched in favor of more interesting toons.</p><p>I can't say how you will find the troub, though. Try it and see. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Fuury]

Who would you say is the worse solo, a Troub or a Temp?  I just got back in game when RoK came out and started from scratch.  I love playing support roles and I am going to try a Troub next.  My main goal isn't solo but when the needs arises I don't want it to be utter frustration.

[heaysyl]

<cite>Fuury wrote:</cite><blockquote>Who would you say is the worse solo, a Troub or a Temp?  I just got back in game when RoK came out and started from scratch.  I love playing support roles and I am going to try a Troub next.  My main goal isn't solo but when the needs arises I don't want it to be utter frustration.</blockquote> ok as someone who has a troub and temp id say my temp is worse solo , i love my troub when i can get a group i can match a tanks dps (with an awful lot of work and mouse click and the right AA lines) at about 1000-1200 , in raids about 7-800 and solo 4-700 (depends on the length of the fight/ how much i have to mez when i remember it) at lvl 75 , as said above it can take time to win a fight but if your willing to take your chances with anything you find , you can win out most the time. ill admit im a bit of a nutter as a troub .. sword and board all the time even when grouped, allways go toe to toe and almost allways forget i have a mez and charm <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i enjoy it because everything , all the way up solo, is a battle to the death in the true sense you and the mob are both in the red and doing everything you can to make sure you have the last blow. now onto temp .. the fact mine is still only in her 30's even though ive had her for almost as long as my tank says how i feel about it but they can still be good in a fight if you enjoy playing them. ill use my friend as an example here rather than mine as i hate it. but he can out DPS an Inq on a good day , and ill allways ask him over any other healer if i need help. he did much the same as i did with my troub, although we were grinding to 70 at the same time we both prefer to solo most the time and he had about as much trouble as i did. mainly because when your solo you cant dps as much as you can in a or a group as a healer, pretty much because in a raid or group somone else is taking the damage not you so you can cast quicker without the inturupts. at the end of the day though your best bet is to start both , work your way to 30 ish which is easy enough to do and then decide about that level which YOU prefer and run with it.

[knightofround]

Bards are never popular in any MMO. It's just not a playstyle that many people enjoy. When people think of "fantasy" they think of some dude decked out in plate, some robe wearing wizzie, or since LotR got popular, bow toting pansies.That bards solo terribly is icing on the cake, most of the toons in EQ2 are alts, and any alt must go thru a solo "trial by fire" the first 30-60 levels until it becomes easier to find a group. And then they have to solo again 70-75.Game mechanics wise, I think you will be hard pressed to find classes more desired than troubs. Illusionists, maybe, as well as Mystic/Defilers, but thats it.

[Windain]

<p>I play bards in any MMO I have played that have the bard class (Hey WoW, how about making a bard so I don't get bored after playing for a month or two).  EQ2 is one of the best games, but probably the worst implimentation of the bard.  </p><p>EQ bard is/was king... bad melee, but better than a cleric... great songs that made us useful in groups, but also given some random abilities so that we weren't just buff bots.</p><p>FFXI bard made the songs the #1 priority.  Bards could barely do any melee damage, but their songs were so powerful that no one cared they could barely do melee.  On a side note, FFXI's job system in any other game would make the game 100x better... so good.</p><p>Vanguard bard was amazing.  They did a very good amount of damage and gave very powerful songs.  I almost felt overpowered playing a bard in Vanguard.  The song creation idea was great and could only be expanded more.  The bard was the only thing that kept me playing.</p><p>EQ2 bards feel very watered down.  I don't feel like a bard, I feel like a very low powered rogue with a variety of weak buffs.  Bards are really only used for about 5 songs total (including both dirge and troubador songs).  Spell/Melee Proc songs, Percussion of Stone, Power regen song, Hate reduction/boosting, and chime/precision.  Our haste song is a borderline joke compared to illusionists, our hp regen is really only a solo song, charm is about 5x too short to be useful for anything other than 'hey lets let this thing follow me!', stat buffs don't do much, +skill songs are rarely useful, resists don't do much, and our evasion boosters are not nearly as good as others.  Requiem of Reflection should just make us look like mirrors and be a fluff buff... I would use it more often than I do now.</p><p>There are a few game flaws that prevent the bards from becoming a powerful class:</p><p>1) Buffs galore.  Just about every single class gets a ton of buffs.  Many classes get buffs that make bard buffs look weak.  In just about every other game, bards were the only ones who could pump up a large amount of buffs.  With every class giving 5 buffs, there is only a tiny advantage.</p><p>2) Original archetype system.  This made us be scouts, not bards.  They couldn't make bards 1 class because of this system and thus we had to halve the ability of the bards into two different subclasses.  But that doesn't matter because we are scouts first and bards second, right?  If that was true, bards would be invited for dps... yet I have trouble out damaging priests and tanks.  </p><p>3) Buffs bots.  The song system is so bland that we basically become buff bots.  Our melee is insignificant on raids and most groups that someone can just box us for the few buffs that are needed and then just let them sit there doing nothing.</p><p>My thoughts on how to fix these problems:</p><p>1) Give bards either more concentration than other classes (7?) and increase the strength or quantity of buffs.  I really don't care about damage, I picked bards to make others stronger.  I'd even take songs that helped everyone in the group BUT me... although soloing is pretty rough <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>2) They almost need to rework the classes again now that archetypes are semi broken apart.  There are so many classes and so little differences between a lot of them that they all seem extraordinarily watered down.  I'd merge the enchanters, bards, rogues, monks, and probably most of the priests to their classes.  Then I would take the remaining classes and increase the differences.  Paladins vs Shadowknights and Rangers vs Assassins are pretty good examples of a decent split... they are quite different, but could still use some alterations.  When merging the classes, give each class most of the abilities of each.  You couldn't give them all because it would make them overpowered.  And now with a much lower amount of classes, you could introduce some classes like the beastlord that many wanted.  If only this wasn't practically impossible and unlikely.  Chances of it happening .001%, but it would make the game even better.  The class system is probably the only thing holding back this game.</p><p>3) Creativity would need to be used to undo the buff bot.  I think the best way would be by introducing instruments, then requiring the bards to do something to play the instrument that temporarily 1) boosts songs strength 2) plays songs above the concentration limit or 3) causes us to do a unique ability.  They should almost make bards play a mini-game.  Equip an instrument which opens up a new window.  Within this window you have to hit buttons to complete songs.  The more correct the song, the stronger its effects.  Ta-da bards become fun, more useful, and becomes stronger than a buff bot.</p><p>I love bards and I love this game.  Even though I have my complaints about the bards, I like to play them more than other classes.  It is almost frustrating seeing so many things that could be done to make it better, but knowing none of it will ever happen.</p>

[Tokam]

yes

[Jesters]

<p>3) Creativity would need to be used to undo the buff bot. I think the best way would be by introducing instruments, then requiring the bards to do something to play the instrument that temporarily 1) boosts songs strength 2) plays songs above the concentration limit or 3) causes us to do a unique ability. They should almost make bards play a mini-game. Equip an instrument which opens up a new window. Within this window you have to hit buttons to complete songs. The more correct the song, the stronger its effects. Ta-da bards become fun, more useful, and becomes stronger than a buff bot.</p><p>_________</p><p>hey i noticed that in Gorowyn by the scout trainers there are two NPC's that are talking about instruments one even has a little tag under the name,  but i think making bards into a mini-game would make us a joke as a class</p><p>i do enjoy playing my troub, and enjoy going on raids with him, i really enjoy soloing both pvp and pve.  i have all proc gear and normally i can parse fairly decent ( between 1.5k and 2k at lvl 70) and thats on a labs run.  the aa in the mez and charm makes us decent at soloing because we can charm one mob and mez another and take the rest down with potm jc and throwing our debuffs on the target.  </p><p>personally the only thing i think needs to be changed from what i hear is the T8 gear, ive heard that we get alot of +spell and + combat art gear rather than the proc gear that i so much enjoyed at lvl 70 </p>

[Aaramis]

<p>My sentiments are similar to Windain.  I've played Bards in a variety of MMORPGs, including EQ1.  Some were well implemented, some were poorly implemented.</p><p>All told, however, the EQ2 Bard feels incomplete compared to EQ1.   Bards were previously the "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" class.  They could melee, they could fear kite, they could mez, they could charm, they could run faster than light, they could buff melee and caster classes, etc. etc.  In EQ2, we have about 1/5th of the versatility of the EQ1 bard, and even then some of it is broken.</p><p>The end result for me is that I simply can't stand soloing on my Troubadour.  It's painful for me.  Even with the "bonus" of the KoS line halving our HO wheel recasts (which in theory should double our dps), my Troub still gets outdps'ed by all of my alts.  My Ranger can do better damage, and kite and never get hit. My Bruiser can out dps the Troub, and he's a tank class with better avoidance, a mez, self-heals, and feign death.  My Conjuror has far better damage capabilities, and comes with a high mitigation pet tank that can AE taunt, and is healable.  So what are Troubs left with for solo?  Well, you either go the shield line if you want to melee (I prefer dual wield and don't want to feel gimped by doing so);  or you kite (if I wanted to do that, I'd play my Ranger);  or you nuke/mez (zzzzz, wake me up in 2 hours when the mob is dead).</p><p>It saddens me, it really does.  I love the concept of the Troubadour.  A bard class with various sonic/mental damage shouts, run speed, buffs, and melee capabilities in and of itself is <b>awesome</b>.  It's just the implementation and eventual nerfs that bother me.  I want a jack-of-all-trades, that brings something to a group, raid, or to solo.  Troubadour fails in the solo department for me :/</p><p>And I really wish that wasn't the case.</p>

[Cuz]

Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.</blockquote><p>i am glad to see you pay your $20 a month to be bored out of your mind. </p><p>the whole idea of fun factor is an opinion relative to each individual player.  as stated many times over just because one person is bored with a particular class, does not mean another is.  If you are "bored" with a particular class, don't come crying to the forums to change the class how you want it should be, try playing something else.</p><p>I know many people who think healers are boring.  Does that mean healers are a [Removed for Content] class, and need to be changed?</p>

[Cuz]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.</blockquote><p>i am glad to see you pay your $20 a month to be bored out of your mind. </p><p>the whole idea of fun factor is an opinion relative to each individual player.  as stated many times over just because one person is bored with a particular class, does not mean another is.  If you are "bored" with a particular class, don't come crying to the forums to change the class how you want it should be, try playing something else.</p><p>I know many people who think healers are boring.  Does that mean healers are a [Removed for Content] class, and need to be changed?</p></blockquote>What I want is a modicum of challenge added to the class. I'm not surprised that Captain UsePrecisionAsMuchAsPhisicallyPossible would be against that.

[Shalwin]

<p>Troubs are worthless, if you're thinking about playing this class because you've played a bard in some other game, stop right now and pick another class.  If you would like to play a class that doesn't matter whether or not you're at the keyboard pressing buttons, then this is the class for you.  Forget about soloing with this class unless you like things that are slow and painful (to you).  This class should only be played as a boxed character as that is clearly what it was designed for.</p><p> If you want to play a kickass bard, go get Vanguard, you'll be much happier.  </p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cuz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.</blockquote><p>i am glad to see you pay your $20 a month to be bored out of your mind. </p><p>the whole idea of fun factor is an opinion relative to each individual player.  as stated many times over just because one person is bored with a particular class, does not mean another is.  If you are "bored" with a particular class, don't come crying to the forums to change the class how you want it should be, try playing something else.</p><p>I know many people who think healers are boring.  Does that mean healers are a [Removed for Content] class, and need to be changed?</p></blockquote>What I want is a modicum of challenge added to the class. I'm not surprised that Captain UsePrecisionAsMuchAsPhisicallyPossible would be against that.</blockquote><p>what a well thought out and intelligent response.  Perhaps the issue you have with your challenge, is that you jsut are not a very well played troubador.  You have it stuck in your mind that we are a buff bot, and will not change.  I am tired of trying to convince you otherwise, but convincing players that actually enjoy their troub to change is not what i woudl consider a well thought out post...</p>

[MulluwenSingalong]

<p>Troubadors are fun, the only downside is that now everyone can do what we do but better.</p><p> Most people can get mana or hp regen higher than what we can do with our songs, can buff str and sta higher than what we can. Anyclass can do better dps (I have wis/str aa down to last skill and sta aa for the shield stuff) and alot of class are better in raids or even in groups.</p><p>Still, when I get a good group going, I'm having fun. When I'm raiding, I'm having fun. I new from the starts that bards where not going to have super high dps (played EQ1 bard for a couple years), but I always thought I would have songs that would REALLY buff the entire group and for ALOT, since my role is to buff and dps.</p><p>Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us. </p><p>Let's all start singing so loud that SoE wont have any choice but to listen to us, go TROUBADORS.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>MulluwenSingalong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us. </blockquote>This is such a joke. Can you honestly say that the groups you join aren't significantly improved by your presence?

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Menaelin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MulluwenSingalong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us. </blockquote>This is such a joke. Can you honestly say that the groups you join aren't significantly improved by your presence?</blockquote><p>/agree  </p><p>so you say class a can buff str/sta better than us, and class B can buff power regen better than us, and class c can buff haste better than us.  Group group can either look for class A, B, and C, or just 1 troub to cover all of it</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Menaelin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MulluwenSingalong wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us. </blockquote>This is such a joke. Can you honestly say that the groups you join aren't significantly improved by your presence?</blockquote><p>/agree  </p><p>so you say class a can buff str/sta better than us, and class B can buff power regen better than us, and class c can buff haste better than us.  Group group can either look for class A, B, and C, or just 1 troub to cover all of it</p></blockquote>Exactly. And the thing is that, all of these various things we can do add up to a far greater total benefit than if you had a more specialized person in the party, because we can do them all at the same time. I've never once been in a group where people have said or demonstrated through their actions frustration over having a measly troubador tagging along. It seems like things tend to go smoothly when I'm there, and when I've played my other characters alongside troubs, I've noticed the same thing. If a person finds troub gameplay boring (usually because they want to do assassin damage and see our buffs strengthened to boot), then they should play another class, because I think a good many of us find that this boredom is highly exaggerated, more a result of PERSONAL likes/dislikes regarding gameplay, and less an actual problem with the class.Also ...Has anybody ever done a reliable study of parses that takes into account the overall damage benefit to groups/raids given by our debuffs and buffs? I would really love to see somebody take a troubador with attainable gear (instance gear and other stuff that you could get with a respectable amount of game time, and perhaps a bit of light raiding), Adept 3 spells, and a reasonable AA build (something that the average troubador would have, not a highly specialized build just for raiding or anything like that), and actually scour the parses to see what our overall contributed DPS is like. This contributed DPS would take into account personal DPS, DPS resulting from debuffs, and DPS resulting from group buffs. I'm not sure if it's even possible to do such a thing with parsers, but it would be cool to see, and I'm fairly certain it would reveal a very respectable side to our contributions that is often overlooked/ignored just because it doesn't result in orange numbers for us.

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>i once did a post before showing just the damage added to a raid counting in the procs from POTM and Aria's.  i do not recall where the troub then landed if we contributed that to us, but it was somewhere in the top 3 if i recall.</p><p>I am doing protectors realm tonight.  i will post my findings afterwards, however the biggest common retort to this type of examination is that it is difficult to see what other classes factor in (say for example a brigand with dispatch, is a noticiable difference in raid DPS, but not something that is parsable)</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i once did a post before showing just the damage added to a raid counting in the procs from POTM and Aria's.  i do not recall where the troub then landed if we contributed that to us, but it was somewhere in the top 3 if i recall.</p><p>I am doing protectors realm tonight.  i will post my findings afterwards, however the biggest common retort to this type of examination is that it is difficult to see what other classes factor in (say for example a brigand with dispatch, is a noticiable difference in raid DPS, but not something that is parsable)</p></blockquote>Even if it's not a foolproof method of determining DPS contribution, I think it's still safe to say that with our personal DPS and the DPS generated as a result of our buffs/debuffs, troubs are doing quite well.

[Tri]

This discussion is as old as the game, it may have even started duringthe first beta though back then bards were a bit different.Even with all these new uber effects on items and the increasing versatilityof other classes the problem dosn't lie in a bard's utility, as they are still mandatory during raids.It's a matter of dull gameplay. There is no tricks to the class, no timing the attacks , no holding back burst damage,no curing / healing, no power transfers, no AEs !!!!!!!!, a nerfed charm , a nerfed mez , no real control skills( see how often the bow stifle works on yellow mobs, you know the mobs on whom you could need it )As a bard, no matter what the situation is, you1 : debuff2 : spam your attacks3 : sometimes you get to mez on a troub or rez with a dirgeAnd unlike other scouts, there is no "rythm" to bard attacks. Which is truely a shame. Of course some spell orders allow better dps output but as long as yourusing any spell that's up and using a Jester's Cap macro you are almost playing the troub to it's full potential.And for those asking for a bone, there has allready been several bones tossed.PotM, selfbuff , adapted crafted gear , more long delay weapons. Yet i still feel something is missing when compared to my other toons.

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>This discussion is as old as the game, it may have even started duringthe first beta though back then bards were a bit different.Even with all these new uber effects on items and the increasing versatilityof other classes the problem dosn't lie in a bard's utility, as they are still mandatory during raids.It's a matter of dull gameplay. There is no tricks to the class, no timing the attacks , no holding back burst damage,no curing / healing, no power transfers, no AEs !!!!!!!!, a nerfed charm , a nerfed mez , no real control skills( see how often the bow stifle works on yellow mobs, you know the mobs on whom you could need it )As a bard, no matter what the situation is, you1 : debuff2 : spam your attacks3 : sometimes you get to mez on a troub or rez with a dirge<b>And unlike other scouts, there is no "rythm" to bard attacks. Which is truely a shame. Of course some spell orders allow better dps output but as long as yourusing any spell that's up and using a Jester's Cap macro you are almost playing the troub to it's full potential.</b>And for those asking for a bone, there has allready been several bones tossed.PotM, selfbuff , adapted crafted gear , more long delay weapons. Yet i still feel something is missing when compared to my other toons.</blockquote><p>in response - other scouts offer zip, nadda, not a single group buff whatsoever to the group that is the slight bit beneficial.   /cheer for pathfinding perhaps?   2 scouts offer hate transfer, but then again that is only one person buff(granted helpful, IMO not nearly as beneficial as 35% groupwide deaggro), and one scout offers poison buff, which again is also one person.  whereas bards buff all 5 other group members with 5 different buffs that require concentration as well as POTM/jesters.</p><p>And i closed my parse after the raid >.<</p>

[Cuz]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>This discussion is as old as the game, it may have even started duringthe first beta though back then bards were a bit different.Even with all these new uber effects on items and the increasing versatilityof other classes the problem dosn't lie in a bard's utility, as they are still mandatory during raids.It's a matter of dull gameplay. There is no tricks to the class, no timing the attacks , no holding back burst damage,no curing / healing, no power transfers, no AEs !!!!!!!!, a nerfed charm , a nerfed mez , no real control skills( see how often the bow stifle works on yellow mobs, you know the mobs on whom you could need it )As a bard, no matter what the situation is, you1 : debuff2 : spam your attacks3 : sometimes you get to mez on a troub or rez with a dirge<b>And unlike other scouts, there is no "rythm" to bard attacks. Which is truely a shame. Of course some spell orders allow better dps output but as long as yourusing any spell that's up and using a Jester's Cap macro you are almost playing the troub to it's full potential.</b>And for those asking for a bone, there has allready been several bones tossed.PotM, selfbuff , adapted crafted gear , more long delay weapons. Yet i still feel something is missing when compared to my other toons.</blockquote><p>in response - other scouts offer zip, nadda, not a single group buff whatsoever to the group that is the slight bit beneficial.   /cheer for pathfinding perhaps?   2 scouts offer hate transfer, but then again that is only one person buff(granted helpful, IMO not nearly as beneficial as 35% groupwide deaggro), and one scout offers poison buff, which again is also one person.  whereas bards buff all 5 other group members with 5 different buffs that require concentration as well as POTM/jesters.</p><p>And i closed my parse after the raid >.<</p></blockquote>My lord you're dense. The complaint isn't what we bring to the group, but how we bring it. PotM and jesters are a sprinkle of something good to the class. Not just because they're two of the best skills in the game, but because as a troub you actually have to be there to use them! And you have to be relatively not [Removed for Content] when it comes to when to cast them. Which brings us to the other complaint. I'd be hard pressed to find an easier class to do your job with. Unless you're completely dense you can play the class to the level that people will want you in the group. Even someone like you who seemingly got an epiphany last week that they should debuff mental before using their mental attacks can play the class well.I want to <b>play </b>a support class. Not play a a crappy DPS class with buffs I already had on since last time I logged. A good game is based on the meaningful decisions you have to make in game. When it comes to the troub, most of those decisions, some barely meaningful, are before I engage combat.

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>"My lord you're dense. The complaint isn't what we bring to the group, but how we bring it. PotM and jesters are a sprinkle of something good to the class. Not just because they're two of the best skills in the game, but because as a troub you actually have to be there to use them! And you have to be relatively not [I cannot control my vocabulary] when it comes to when to cast them. Which brings us to the other complaint. I'd be hard pressed to find an easier class to do your job with. Unless you're completely dense you can play the class to the level that people will want you in the group. <b><span style="font-size: medium;">Even someone like you who seemingly got an epiphany last week that they should debuff mental before using their mental attacks can play the class well.</span></b>I want to <b>play </b>a support class. Not play a a crappy DPS class with buffs I already had on since last time I logged. A good game is based on the meaningful decisions you have to make in game. When it comes to the troub, most of those decisions, some barely meaningful, are before I engage combat."</p><p>does your epee grow everytime you make a personal attack at me?  Cause that is awesome.  You must be a truly and gifted troubador to have nothing better to do than come to these forums and flame other troubs who actually enjoy the class.  Take your meaningless drovel elsewhere.   If you actually read the entire post that snippet came from you would have known I was attempting to HELP a fellow troub out, however all your post do are complain and try to force people away from the class.</p><p>i have said it before, if you dislike the class so much there are 23 other classes you can play.  Do it and quit your whining here. </p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> If a person finds troub gameplay boring (usually because they want to > do assassin damage and see our buffs strengthened to boot), then they > should play another class, because I think a good many of us find that > this boredom is highly exaggerated, more a result of PERSONAL likes/dislikes > regarding gameplay, and less an actual problem with the class.</p><p>I could agree with you, but troubadour population is low. Personally, I HAVE gone off to play another class and am much happier. If there were enough troubs in the world, I would chalk it up to "just not being my play style." With a shortage of troubs, though, I am back here trying to "fix" the class. </p><p>> i have said it before, if you dislike the class so much there are 23 other classes > you can play.  Do it and quit your whining here. </p><p>Whining about whining is worse IMO.</p><p>A discussion about the problems of the troubadour class isn't necessarily whining anyway.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I could agree with you, but troubadour population is low. Personally, I HAVE gone off to play another class and am much happier. If there were enough troubs in the world, I would chalk it up to "just not being my play style." With a shortage of troubs, though, I am back here trying to "fix" the class. </p></blockquote>Just because you think the troubador is heavily flawed and the class happens to be one of the least used in the game doesn't mean that this is because of an objective, unarguable flaw in the class.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Just because you think the troubador is heavily flawed and the class > happens to be one of the least used in the game doesn't mean that > this is because of an objective, unarguable flaw in the class.</p><p>For the record, I never said the troub was heavily flawed. I also would never dream that any subject would be unarguable on the internet. If I said "Black is Black," I am sure someone could find an argument. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The objective fact is that troubs are one of the least-played classes. As an illusionist, I'd like to see this change, because I want more of them in my groups.  As such, a discussion of possible flaws in the troubadour class has merit to me. If you can't stand discussing possible flaws in the troubadour class, perhaps you should steer clear of threads that are titled: "Are troubs really that bad?" <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The objective fact is that troubs are one of the least-played classes. As an illusionist, I'd like to see this change, because I want more of them in my groups.  As such, a discussion of possible flaws in the troubadour class has merit to me. If you can't stand discussing possible flaws in the troubadour class, perhaps you should steer clear of threads that are titled: "Are troubs really that bad?" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote>The title of the thread implies room for counterpoints. And that is what I am doing. I'm providing a counterpoint. Letting the criticisms go unanswered is not beneficial to the discussion.I think there are two separate issues at play here:1) Low population of troubadors.2) Problems with the troubador class.What you seem to be saying is that problems with the class have led to a dwindling population. But I'm not quite sure you've established the link well enough.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> What you seem to be saying is that problems with the class have led to a > dwindling population. But I'm not quite sure you've established the link well > enough.</p><p>That's absolutely what I am saying. As far as establishing the link, it's built into my definition of balanced. My definition is that classes are balanced when the populations are balanced. Therefore, when the troub has low population, by my definition, it's because the class is out-of-balance.</p><p>It would be interesting to hear what your definition of balanced is.</p>

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> What you seem to be saying is that problems with the class have led to a > dwindling population. But I'm not quite sure you've established the link well > enough.</p><p>That's absolutely what I am saying. As far as establishing the link, it's built into my definition of balanced. My definition is that classes are balanced when the populations are balanced. Therefore, when the troub has low population, by my definition, it's because the class is out-of-balance.</p><p>It would be interesting to hear what your definition of balanced is.</p></blockquote>On one hand when reading your post I agreed with you, but when I thought about it again I disagree lol.. Thing is, *fun* is really not something that is the same for each person. Even if the classes were balanced 100% I do not think that there would be an equal amount of Furies as there are Troubadors. To explain further.. I feel that most players choose to be other classes because they want to be in the frontline/spotlight. (DPS or Tank or Heals) and being a utility class that is based off of boosting the groups potential (instead of boosting their own and bringing themselves into the spot light)When talking with friends (or watching channel chat) I will see people talking about X Healer did an awesome job.. or X Tank was extremely good or even X DPS murdered the charts.. etc etc etc... What I dont see are people talking about X Bard did such an AMAZING job helping their group members..And this is just how Bards work, not for themselves to be in the spot light, but for their groups as a utility class.Sure they bring DPS, but am not talking about toping the charts here.. as no Bard should ever be on the top of the DPS charts.. (if they are then the rest of the DPS needs to learn how to DPS lol)Back to balance.. I don't feel that in any MMO the class system would ever be 100% balanced. 

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Even if the classes were balanced 100% I do not think that there would be > an equal amount of Furies as there are Troubadors. </p><p>This sentence can't be understood until you tell me how you define balance.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That's absolutely what I am saying. As far as establishing the link, it's built into my definition of balanced. My definition is that classes are balanced when the populations are balanced. Therefore, when the troub has low population, by my definition, it's because the class is out-of-balance.</p><p>It would be interesting to hear what your definition of balanced is.</p></blockquote>I think your definition is flawed then. To me, "balanced" means that no single class stands out as extremely powerful in all aspects of the game, and no class stands out as extremely weak in all aspects of the game. This doesn't mean that every class is the master of its own niche domain ... it may mean that you end up with a class that is highly flexible, decent to good at several things, but doesn't stand above all in any single aspect. Obviously, this is a very complex thing to grapple with. It's never going to be as easy as "Well, the troubador doesn't do anything the best, therefore the class is broken." Bards are a hybrid class. As such, they are bound to appear "middling" to some. This doesn't, however, mean that they're in need of an overhaul.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> To me, "balanced" means that no single class stands out as extremely > powerful in all aspects of the game, and no class stands out as extremely > weak in all aspects of the game.</p><p>That's a pretty harsh definition of balanced. That would mean that a class could be weak in all aspects of the game without being unbalanced (because it would need to be "extremely" weak to be unbalanced.) Anyway, by your definition, I agree that troubs are balanced.</p><p>Edit: I'm really trying to make a point here, and that is I think many arguments on this board are because the definition of balamced is unclear. I suspect most people are calling a class balanced if they feel it is roughly equally "powerful" to all the other classes. Unfortunately, this is purely subjective. 10 people out 100 might feel the troubadour is over-powered. 30 people of 100 might feel the troubadour is balanced. 60 people out of 100 might feel the troubadour is under-powered. Since these opinions are not based on any measurable criteria, but are all based on how the people "feel," we can argue about it forever without progressing at all.</p><p>That's why I lean toward using population figures to indicate balance. If a class is low population, then most people feel it's not as fun as other classes. It needs some sort of boost to help it out. It could be made more powerful (usually makes the class more fun.) Or, it could have its "fun" factor increased some other way.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> To me, "balanced" means that no single class stands out as extremely > powerful in all aspects of the game, and no class stands out as extremely > weak in all aspects of the game.</p><p>That's a pretty harsh definition of balanced. That would mean that a class could be weak in all aspects of the game without being unbalanced (because it would need to be "extremely" weak to be unbalanced.) Anyway, by your definition, I agree that troubs are balanced.</p><p>Edit: I'm really trying to make a point here, and that is I think many arguments on this board are because the definition of balamced is unclear. I suspect most people are calling a class balanced if they feel it is roughly equally "powerful" to all the other classes. Unfortunately, this is purely subjective. 10 people out 100 might feel the troubadour is over-powered. 30 people of 100 might feel the troubadour is balanced. 60 people out of 100 might feel the troubadour is under-powered. Since these opinions are not based on any measurable criteria, but are all based on how the people "feel," we can argue about it forever without progressing at all.</p><p>That's why I lean toward using population figures to indicate balance. If a class is low population, then most people feel it's not as fun as other classes. It needs some sort of boost to help it out. It could be made more powerful (usually makes the class more fun.) Or, it could have its "fun" factor increased some other way.</p></blockquote>I think your definition of "balanced" is pretty harsh as well, since it implies that, when a player decides to play a particular class, this is also a referendum AGAINST every other class in the game. I'm not sure I can tag along on that one. I think there are a lot of complexities that you're glossing over, such as personal interests/desires related to content that would modify somebody's tendency to play any particular class. A lot of people are predisposed, for example, to playing tank classes. Well, those people are going to skip right over the bards, and it's not because they hate bards, or think bards are broken, but because they have a positive tendency toward tanking. Same with healing. Same with mages. I can certainly envision the person who, even before they've got the game box in their hands, knows he/she wants to play a wizard. Does this person's decision act as a referendum against every other class in the game? I don't think so. So that's not really a reliable way to determine "balance."I think the central issue, regarding population size, is that bards, like enchanters, aren't ostentatious in their abilities. If you play one of these classes, you're going to have a rather large effect on a group of players, but you're not going to put up the big orange numbers like some others. And this leads many players of a certain mindset to boredom, because they don't feel like they're noticed or at the forefront of the grouping experience. Inexperienced players will often gloss over the effects bards/enchanters are able to create and leave them feeling invisible. On the other hand, there ARE players who get a certain satisfaction from being the guy making a difference in the background, choreographing the success of the group, making other people better at what they do. Healers deal with this all the time, and I think the best healers embrace it. Not everybody is able to get into that mindset, but I think you have to be willing to do so in order to really enjoy playing a bard a lot of the time. My point is that this is a completely valid niche mentality that the bard plays to. I just don't think it's nearly as common as the DPS mentality, or the tanking mentality. That's all.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I think your definition of "balanced" is pretty harsh as well, since it implies that, > when a player decides to play a particular class, this is also a referendum > AGAINST every other class in the game.  </p><p>No - not harsh at all - just factual. When a player chooses a class, he does choose it from every other class he could play. I have seven toons I play. I chose them from the 24 available, because I liked them better than the other 17. </p><p>There are minor points - I might choose a class because a guild needs it - but even that's important when considering "balance."</p><p>> I think the central issue, regarding population size, is that bards, like enchanters, > aren't ostentatious in their abilities.</p><p>I agree with this, but that would be a reason to make bards more attractive (IMO.)</p><p>> My point is that this is a completely valid niche mentality that the bard plays to. > I just don't think it's nearly as common as the DPS mentality, or the tanking > mentality. That's all.</p><p>Your vision of the bard seems the same as the developer one. Lucky for you, I guess. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Edit: As an illusionist, though, I don't like this vision. I'm not happy with the low troub population - I want more bards so I can group with them.</p>

[roces9]

<cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>When talking with friends (or watching channel chat) I will see people talking about X Healer did an awesome job.. or X Tank was extremely good or even X DPS murdered the charts.. etc etc etc... What I dont see are people talking about X Bard did such an AMAZING job helping their group members..And this is just how Bards work, not for themselves to be in the spot light, but for their groups as a utility class.       </blockquote>You're absolutely correct on this point, but I think you're missing a little something too. Yes, as a support class a Bard's role in a group can easily get overlooked. But I think it also has to do with the fact that it is very hard to tell the difference between a GOOD and a BAD Troubador.Way back in the Troub forums someone posted a parse that showed if you add all of your group member's Arias/PoTM procs that a Troub brings well over 3k dps to a raid. And almost all of that came from turning on one buff and hitting PoTM every 2 minutes. No one will notice if a Troub is parsing 1k or 1.8k, even though thats a big difference to the person playing the Troub. Obviously, its easier to see the differences between a good and bad Troub in a group (crowd control, personal DPS, general utility etc) or in solo play, but Troubs are primarily a Raid class. Most top level, raid geared Troubs are alts that people either 2box or only log on for Raids. I'm a huge supporter of giving Troubs more utility in a group (more CC and more little things that we do better than other classes), but right now the truth is that it is very hard to tell the difference between an /afk /follow 2boxer, and some one that's really playing well in a Raid (our primary use in this game)

[Tri]

Bards cannot really "show off" , even if they have mastered their class.You spent days and days assimilating your spells until you are able to castthem at incredible speed, without ever needing to look for a spell oreven needing to think what spell you should now cast.Dps, crowd control, swapping buffs on the fly, it all comes naturally to you.And then you grind, you camp, you farm,you bang your head on the wall,you rince and repeat and finally manage to get your hands on a Stratocaster.Congratulations !!!! You can now do 600 more dps than the guy in mastercraftedplaying while watching TV.

[roces9]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>Congratulations !!!! You can now do 600 more dps than the guy in mastercraftedplaying while watching TV.</blockquote>QFE and my point exactally

[Menaelin]

<cite>roces9 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>Congratulations !!!! You can now do 600 more dps than the guy in mastercraftedplaying while watching TV.</blockquote>QFE and my point exactally</blockquote>If you want to do insane DPS, play a DPS class. That's never what the bard was.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> If you want to do insane DPS, play a DPS class. That's never what the bard was.</p><p>I believe that neither poster was asking for DPS. They were asking that skilled, hard-working players to have a significant impact when playing a troubadour. One measure would be DPS, but there are other things that could be done.</p>

[Banditman]

I think it would be interesting if SOE changed logging so that a parser could more easily attribute "obvious" Troubador created damage to the Troubador.  Aria / Precision being the primary ones of course.Clearly, we don't actually want that damage attributed to us for hate list reasons, but it would be nice if there was some way that ACT could easily track and attribute that damage so you could actually see it.

[Jeger_Wulf]

/agree Banditman

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> If you want to do insane DPS, play a DPS class. That's never what the bard was.</p><p>I believe that neither poster was asking for DPS. They were asking that skilled, hard-working players to have a significant impact when playing a troubadour. One measure would be DPS, but there are other things that could be done.</p></blockquote>You do have a significant impact when you play a troubador. It's just not flashy and ostentatious. And the poster I responded to mentioned dissatisfaction regarding DPS specifically, which is why I responded with a comment about DPS.I'm also in agreement with Banditman. If there was some way to see even a rough outline of total contributed DPS for Troubadors on parsers, I think a lot of these gripes would go away. I think a lot of the issue is that the results of our efforts aren't immediately visible to everyone else around us. If some indication showed up on parsers, this would go a long way toward quieting criticisms, especially DPS-oriented criticisms.

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>one of the recent updates to ACT added a "Data Correction" tab, which i have been messing with, but unable to get to work properly.  It is my understanding that once working, we could attribute different procs such as arias directly to the troub.</p><p>I have yet to get it to work properly though.</p>

[Tri]

I used the Dps example because when you're neither a tank / healerit's usually the only way to compare how well someone plays a class.As it is now neither potm nor jester's require a lot of skill to use correctly,or to be more precise in the the case of jester's cap it demands only concertation betweenthe troub and the other classes and i don't feel this falls in the "troub skill measuring" .Also i was talking about rythm in one of my previous posts,i would like for a bards skills to have a certain rythm, or casting order / cyclingin order to break the monotony of only having to cast whatever is up as long asyou are casting Eli's as often as possible.In the end i'm not asking for any particular changes, because iwould prefer for the devs to focus on quest lines and other lore contentthan playing with the mechanics, but there clearly is a lack of improvement space.And in a MMORPG, improvement is a huge part of the game.

[Tri]

i just thought of an idea which could seem nice in order to satisfy those asking for more dps and also those asking for more skill.What about an echo skill, that will cast a spell doing a certain % of the damage of the next attack spell cast.This way a mediocre troub will spam the skill, while one seeking to min/max would use it on the big spells ofother group members, or on your big single or group nuke when soloing.And the dps should count as done by the troub in order to avoid the problem there waz swith the potm spell,which asked the troub to cast it as often as possible in order to increase other's dps even if it wasn't fun at allto be rooted and dazed 1/4 of the time.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> You do have a significant impact when you play a troubador. > It's just not flashy and ostentatious.</p><p>We all agree - you can leave that point alone - we get it and we agree. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> I don't think anyone here would seriously maintain that a troubadour doesn't bring a lot to the group. Most of what they bring, however, is brought by their buffs - it's why they make good buff-bots.</p><p>The point of the poster was that a skilled and hard-working player can fight to learn the class, get good equipment and do everything he can to maximize what he does. In the end, the only result he sees on raids is 600 more DPS over someone who is playing while watching TV.</p><p>Edit: The echo skill sounds like a good idea.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>I used the Dps example because when you're neither a tank / healerit's usually the only way to compare how well someone plays a class.As it is now neither potm nor jester's require a lot of skill to use correctly,or to be more precise in the the case of jester's cap it demands only concertation betweenthe troub and the other classes and i don't feel this falls in the "troub skill measuring" .Also i was talking about rythm in one of my previous posts,i would like for a bards skills to have a certain rythm, or casting order / cyclingin order to break the monotony of only having to cast whatever is up as long asyou are casting Eli's as often as possible.In the end i'm not asking for any particular changes, because iwould prefer for the devs to focus on quest lines and other lore contentthan playing with the mechanics, but there clearly is a lack of improvement space.And in a MMORPG, improvement is a huge part of the game.</blockquote>Here's my view:There are a lot of classes in this game that don't take a whole lot of effort/skill to play well. My main is a healer, and the only time I ever have to do anything exciting is when an add pops up or things otherwise get hectic. So basically, I don't do anything showy unless the tank is screwing up, or other classes are stealing aggro, or whatever. In fact, I would say that there's A LOT more to do on my troubador during your average set of circumstances than there is to do on my healer. This is why I'm always completely unconvinced by the argument that troubs can just stand there and be buffbots, and OMG Jester's Cap and PoTM big deal, blah blah blah. Just as casting spells on your troub is relatively effortless, it is also relatively effortless for pure DPS classes to put out DPS. Because that's what they do. Troubs have CA's, offensive spells, debuffs, plenty of stuff to keep you busy during a fight. Just because you CAN stand there and be a buffbot doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> You do have a significant impact when you play a troubador. > It's just not flashy and ostentatious.</p><p>We all agree - you can leave that point alone - we get it and we agree. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" /> I don't think anyone here would seriously maintain that a troubadour doesn't bring a lot to the group. Most of what they bring, however, is brought by their buffs - it's why they make good buff-bots.</p><p>The point of the poster was that a skilled and hard-working player can fight to learn the class, get good equipment and do everything he can to maximize what he does. In the end, the only result he sees on raids is 600 more DPS over someone who is playing while watching TV.</p><p>Edit: The echo skill sounds like a good idea.</p></blockquote>I really want to know who this fictional TV-watching troubador is, though. The poster can't give an example like that and act like it applies to everyone in the game.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Here's my view:</p><p>Your view is fine - I see no reason to change it. In fact, I am glad you like playing your troub.</p><p>The question you need to ask yourself, is: are you happy with the troub being the least-played class in the game? If you are, then you don't really have any reason to even read these threads.Enjoy playing your troub, and pay no attention to those of us who don't like to play the class.</p><p>If you would rather there were more troubs, then what do you think should be done to increase the number? </p>

[Tri]

The TV watching Troub metaphore applies to all troubs not bothering to pushtheir gameplay in order to reach the classes' full potential , will it bebecause they are watching TV, eating, can't play decently, or feel the concentrationand button mashing demanded isn't worth the final result.When shi t hits the fan, playing a healer is a lot more fun than being a troub,though i had good moments on my troub when i swapped in my tanking gear on the fly and cancelledthe deagro buff only for myself in order to peel the mobs off the squishies.But usually i play with my group of reckless friends, and being on my warden when thetwo scouts in your group also decided to tank is more fun than my troub, even more if you add a bit of CCthrough the great warden roots while trying to dish some decent damage.Of course if those bast ards decide to be pita s on a regular basis you state a heal veto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />As you said " <span class="postbody">the only time I ever have to do anything exciting is when an add pops up or things otherwise get hectic"So go find some friends who like to play it hectic, i am one of those, to find excityement in this game.I like support calsses but as it is now, when playing my troub, i go after dps and runspeed.stoopid language filter</span>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> Here's my view:</p><p>Your view is fine - I see no reason to change it. In fact, I am glad you like playing your troub.</p><p>The question you need to ask yourself, is: are you happy with the troub being the least-played class in the game? If you are, then you don't really have any reason to even read these threads.Enjoy playing your troub, and pay no attention to those of us who don't like to play the class.</p><p>If you would rather there were more troubs, then what do you think should be done to increase the number? </p></blockquote>Well, you and I disagree about why troubadors aren't played as much as other classes. I don't think the class needs a buff or an overhaul, or anything like that. Just like playing a healer or a tank or a pure DPS class, playing a bard caters to a certain mindset. This mindset, however, simply isn't as common as those others. I would hate to see bards made indistinguishable from other classes just on the off chance that we would see more of them running around Norrath.

[Menaelin]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>The TV watching Troub metaphore applies to all troubs not bothering to pushtheir gameplay in order to reach the classes' full potential , will it bebecause they are watching TV, eating, can't play decently, or feel the concentrationand button mashing demanded isn't worth the final result.When shi t hits the fan, playing a healer is a lot more fun than being a troub,though i had good moments on my troub when i swapped in my tanking gear on the fly and cancelledthe deagro buff only for myself in order to peel the mobs off the squishies.But usually i play with my group of reckless friends, and being on my warden when thetwo scouts in your group also decided to tank is more fun than my troub, even more if you add a bit of CCthrough the great warden roots while trying to dish some decent damage.Of course if those bast ards decide to be pita s on a regular basis you state a heal veto <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />As you said " <span class="postbody">the only time I ever have to do anything exciting is when an add pops up or things otherwise get hectic"So go find some friends who like to play it hectic, i am one of those, to find excityement in this game.I like support calsses but as it is now, when playing my troub, i go after dps and runspeed.stoopid language filter</span></blockquote>Here's the thing, though. I enjoy playing my healer, even though it's not hectic and challenging at every turn. I feel the same way about the troubador. And I still believe that there's way more actual activity on my troub, if we're talking about an average grouping experience, than there is on my healer. I'm just trying to dispel the notion that bards are the least active class in the game, since one of the prevailing notions is that they're "boring" and that there's "nothing to do except stand there and be a buffbot." Healers are often put in that role. Yet people keep rolling healers, right? Now, the activity that the troubs undergo may not add up to them topping the DPS parse or anything like that, but there IS stuff to be done. And honestly, I can't imagine being on a raid and trying to explain to the leader that my extra 600 DPS is worthless in the larger scheme of things. Maybe some leaders would shrug it off, but even 600 DPS is still DPS. Do you want to be mediocre just because you can, or because you feel like that's the fate allotted you by the devs? I think it's time to face it. Troubs are never going to be a high DPS class. They add way too much already with their buffs. The group buffs would have to be nerfed to hell and back in order for them to justify boosting DPS. And beyond that, there are classes that are far less active than bards. Just because a lot of your functionality comes from passive buffs doesn't nullify all the debuffs you have to throw up manually and all the CA's and spells you can do on top of that.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Well, you and I disagree about why troubadors aren't played as much as other classes. </p><p>I don't think we disagree with why the troub is least-played. In fact, I think we totally agree. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but here is what I hear you saying: </p><p>"The troubadour style is different from other classes, and this leads to it being least-played. I am fine with that. I do not want to make changes to the class to attract more people, because it could lead to the troub being over-powered or cookie-cutter."</p><p>Where I would say: </p><p>"The troubadour style is different from other classes, and this leads to it being least-played. I would like to see more troubs. Therefore, I want to make changes to the class to attract more people. I'm not too worried about the class being 'over-powered' as a result, because you can never perfectly balance a class, anyway. If the class populations are nearly the same, then the class must not be 'too' over-powered."</p><p>Have I fairly stated your point of view?</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I'm just trying to dispel the notion that bards are the least active class > in the game, since one of the prevailing notions is that they're "boring" > and that there's "nothing to do except stand there and be a buffbot."</p><p>You can't dispel the notion, because it's subjective, not objective. If people "think" the troubadour is boring, then the troubdour is boring (to them.) </p>

[verydanger]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Where I would say: </p><p>"The troubadour style is different from other classes, and this leads to it being least-played. I would like to see more troubs. Therefore, I want to make changes to the class to attract more people. I'm not too worried about the class being 'over-powered' as a result, because you can never perfectly balance a class, anyway. If the class populations are nearly the same, then the class must not be 'too' over-powered."</p></blockquote>So you wanting to change troubs has nothing to do with the class being "weak" or not fun to play? You simply want to see a change because it would mean more people play troubs?And furthermore, you say the reason troub is such a rare choice is because its a "different style". What is the solution then, to make the class more like others?

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> Well, you and I disagree about why troubadors aren't played as much as other classes. </p><p>I don't think we disagree with why the troub is least-played. In fact, I think we totally agree. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but here is what I hear you saying: </p><p>"The troubadour style is different from other classes, and this leads to it being least-played. I am fine with that. I do not want to make changes to the class to attract more people, because it could lead to the troub being over-powered or cookie-cutter."</p><p>Where I would say: </p><p>"The troubadour style is different from other classes, and this leads to it being least-played. I would like to see more troubs. Therefore, I want to make changes to the class to attract more people. I'm not too worried about the class being 'over-powered' as a result, because you can never perfectly balance a class, anyway. If the class populations are nearly the same, then the class must not be 'too' over-powered."</p><p>Have I fairly stated your point of view?</p></blockquote><p>I however just cannot agree that simply because a class is least played, it is therefore broken.  To me, it just means that it is not a cookie cutter class that everyone wants to play, and i personally have no argument with that at all.  I have stated, and will continue to state that if you do not like class A, then play class B, or C.  There is always going to be one class at the bottom, and just cause it is the troub, does not mean they are borked.</p><p>also to respond to: "<i>The question you need to ask yourself, is: are you happy with the troub being the least-played class in the game? If you are, then you don't really have any reason to even read these threads.Enjoy playing your troub, and pay no attention to those of us who don't like to play the class</i>."</p><p>The fact that the troub is the least play class is irrelevant to whether or not the class is broken and of need of fixing, at least in my opinion.  i enjoy my troub, that is why i come to these boards.  i come to try to show how i see my troub, to those who dislike their, just as those who dislike theirs try to show how they see their troubs to us.</p><p>and before you put words in my mouth, as you have to the above, i have no objections if they want to make changes to the troub, i however just stand by and believe that alot has already been done to put us in the right direction (im referring to no conc self buff, and removal of daze/root on POTM)  those were 2 BIG things the troub community was asking for.  we got it, and yet there still exists troubs who complain.  You just can't make everyone happy - but then again, there are 23 other classes in the game ^_~</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> I'm just trying to dispel the notion that bards are the least active class > in the game, since one of the prevailing notions is that they're "boring" > and that there's "nothing to do except stand there and be a buffbot."</p><p>You can't dispel the notion, because it's subjective, not objective. If people "think" the troubadour is boring, then the troubdour is boring (to them.) </p></blockquote>Exactly, so these people should go play another class that doesn't bore them. I think it's safe to say that one can be bored by pretty much any class in this game. That's all I'm trying to get across.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> So you wanting to change troubs has nothing to do with the class being > "weak" or not fun to play? You simply want to see a change because it > would mean more people play troubs?</p><p>I am not sure whwhat point you are trying to make. When a class is least-played, there are reasons. And it's not because the class is too fun to play, or over-powered.</p><p>> The fact that the troub is the least play class is irrelevant to whether or not the class is > broken and of need of fixing, at least in my opinion. </p><p>Probably this is where we disagree - I think it is the only thing that is relevant. What is irrelevant to me is whether you, personally, like your troub, or I, personally, don't like my troub. I'm not particularly fond of playing a templar, but I'm not on those boards, because the class population seems fine. It is exactly because the troub population is low that I am here, trying to improve the class.</p><p>> Exactly, so these people should go play another class that doesn't bore them.</p><p>I agree. I have. A lot of people have. That's why the troub is least-played in the game. It's also why IMO we should improve the class.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree. I have. A lot of people have. That's why the troub is least-played in the game. It's also why IMO we should improve the class.</blockquote>You can't be bored by it if you haven't tried it. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of players in this game haven't even tried rolling a bard. Maybe it's my server (AB), but I see enough Dirges/Troubs running around that I don't think the class population is in severe trouble or anything like that. It ain't like you can't find a bard at all or something like that. Do you want them to be like Furies or SKs in population size?Anyway, this goes back to the whole thing before about whether selecting a class means you're saying something negative about every other class you don't select. I don't believe that's the case. The only changes SOE could make that would successfully build up the bard population would leave bards looking like assassins. And then you might as well just get rid of the class entirely, or merge them in with another class. And while the bard population may be low, I don't think it's low enough to justify that kind of action.

[Jeger_Wulf]

> The only changes SOE could make that would successfully build up the bard > population would leave bards looking like assassins. We couldn't disagree more. IMO SoE could make changes to the troub that would keep it as a caster-support class, but would make it much more attractive to play. So long as you feel like you do, though, I can understand why you resist changes to the class.

[SleepingSleeping]

Some perspectives I've gotten point more or less to how subtle the Troub actually benefits the group/raid. A Troub will probably never do anything to "wow" people whether it be Dps or CC as our abilities in those fields are mediocre at best.Edit: I do enjoy the echo idea.

[MullenSkywatcher]

Counterspell is a good example a of nice ability that you can wow people with, you just have to advertise in raid channel what you are doing, and make sure you can time aoes in ACT, lol.

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote>> The only changes SOE could make that would successfully build up the bard > population would leave bards looking like assassins. We couldn't disagree more. IMO SoE could make changes to the troub that would keep it as a caster-support class, but would make it much more attractive to play. So long as you feel like you do, though, I can understand why you resist changes to the class.</blockquote>Please, tell me what they would do to make bards a more attractive class. Because this would almost certainly have to entail a significant boost in DPS. We can sit here all day and pretend that enhancing the gameplay experience of bards would be enough, but we all know that DPS is what Norrath runs on, at least in terms of class popularity. So this would either result in bards being massively overpowered, with increased DPS and buffs remaining essentially the same (we know this won't happen), or having their buffs watered way down in order to compensate for said DPS boost, in which case they would resemble pre-existing DPS classes (a wiz-sassin maybe?). And even if the devs did this, people would still be like "What? What the hell kind of class is that? I don't recognize it! I'm going to roll an assassin instead!"Also, you keep talking about how you want more bards in your groups, but if they change what it is essentially to be a bard, are you still going to want them in your groups? And if you want to group with them so badly currently, then they can't be that unsuccessful as a class, can they? Obviously, they offer something desirable, or you wouldn't want their company.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Please, tell me what they would do to make bards a more attractive class. Because this > would almost certainly have to entail a significant boost in DPS. </p><p>Not at all. The bards already do plenty of DPS. The problem is most of it isn't active, and it's invisible. Keep it group oriented, but structure it so its active and/or visible. The echo post was one idea - I think it's a pretty good one. You could cast s spell that for a short while copies all spells cast by the group. This wouldn't need to be more DPS, you could drop one of our more passive buffs or spells. You could up the recycle on our mez. You could increase the length of our charm.</p><p>There are many possibilities, why don't you come up with a few ideas? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> Please, tell me what they would do to make bards a more attractive class. Because this > would almost certainly have to entail a significant boost in DPS. </p><p>Not at all. The bards already do plenty of DPS. The problem is most of it isn't active, and it's invisible. Keep it group oriented, but structure it so its active and/or visible. The echo post was one idea - I think it's a pretty good one. You could cast s spell that for a short while copies all spells cast by the group. This wouldn't need to be more DPS, you could drop one of our more passive buffs or spells. You could up the recycle on our mez. You could increase the length of our charm.</p><p>There are many possibilities, why don't you come up with a few ideas? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></p></blockquote>Well I think bards are plenty active already. There's a lot to be doing as a bard besides setting your group buffs and hitting Jester's/PoTM every now and then. The main "problem" is that their peripheral DPS isn't attributed to them. But honestly, what other class has peripheral DPS attributed to them, and why should bards be any different?Another point I've been wanting to make: theoretically, every class could be played by an equal number of people, but realistically, that is not going to be the case. One class or another has to be the "least played." I think there's a big difference between a class being the least played, and a class being an endangered species. At least on AB, I see bards all the time. While they may not be a particularly popular archetype, I don't think the population is in need of artificial inflation on SOE's part.Also, you say that we should keep it group oriented, but I would imagine that, if there's any barrier keeping people from playing bards in the first place, it's the perception that they can't solo. The only thing I think the devs can do to remedy this issue is to somehow increase the solo DPS capability of bards, but again, like I've said before, that would either leave bards highly overpowered or lead to a diminished group presence.I think it would be a good idea for the devs to look into the possibility of maybe one or two group-oriented spell lines attributing damage to the bard instead of individual group members, but then again, I can think of certain group scenarios where that would put bard damage way out of wack and cause other classes to start complaining, possibly leading to bard nerfs. And I think that's a scenario we would all like to avoid if possible.

[Cuz]

<cite>Menaelin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Well I think bards are plenty active already. There's a lot to be doing as a bard besides setting your group buffs and hitting Jester's/PoTM every now and then. The main "problem" is that their peripheral DPS isn't attributed to them. But honestly, what other class has peripheral DPS attributed to them, and why should bards be any different?</blockquote>Issue is that you're pretty much just keeping yourself busy. You're not playing a support class. You are a support class, and you're playing a crappy scout.

[Frigid2000]

<p>I can't complain about being a troubador in a raid. Troubador's in raids are completely valuable in every sense of the word.</p><p>I think people's complaints are the lack of DPS and the frustration of soloing still. Granted, the devs have listened to our complaints, but when they upped difficulty in RoK, we're back at the same level.</p><p>Some suggestions/thoughts of upping our DPS without changing the class altogether:1.) Make Eli's line instance cast, with the same refresh rate - or, allow us to spend AA's to make it instance cast. Overpowered? I don't think so.</p><p>2.) Unrelated to DPS, but I would like to see a Travel Song similar to EQ1. </p><p>3.) I think some of our buffs could be changed. I don't usually use the defense buff. Or the Dove line, ever. Granted, not exactly related to DPS.</p><p>4.) Make charm useful. 16 seconds is laughable, at best.</p><p>Frankly I think #1, would do quite a bit. Granted, we CAN technically solo well - mez gives us that option. It just takes FOR-E-VER, especially when most other classes can walk up to anything and mow through them like they weren't even there. And it's rather humbling to see guardians and such in "dps" mode, or other odd classes like that, higher than us on the parse.</p>

[Aaramis]

<cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I think people's complaints are the lack of DPS and the frustration of soloing still. Granted, the devs have listened to our complaints, but when they upped difficulty in RoK, we're back at the same level.</p><p>Some suggestions/thoughts of upping our DPS without changing the class altogether:1.) Make Eli's line instance cast, with the same refresh rate - or, allow us to spend AA's to make it instance cast. Overpowered? I don't think so.</p><p>2.) Unrelated to DPS, but I would like to see a Travel Song similar to EQ1. </p><p>3.) I think some of our buffs could be changed. I don't usually use the defense buff. Or the Dove line, ever. Granted, not exactly related to DPS.</p><p>4.) Make charm useful. 16 seconds is laughable, at best.</p><p>Frankly I think #1, would do quite a bit. Granted, we CAN technically solo well - mez gives us that option. It just takes FOR-E-VER, especially when most other classes can walk up to anything and mow through them like they weren't even there. And it's rather humbling to see guardians and such in "dps" mode, or other odd classes like that, higher than us on the parse.</p></blockquote><p>My sentiments exactly.  It's the solo department where Troubs fail for me, certainly not the raid / group department.</p><p>And I agree on the suggestions, they sound reasonable.  Insta-cast Eli's would be nice, as would a travel song.  I think a lot of Bards would be able to swallow the fact that Rangers speed past them if the Selo's granted something else, such as a levitate, invis, and see invis like in EQ1.  As for charm - I couldn't agree more.  Give Bards more options to solo other than mez - nuke, nuke, nuke - mez - nuke, nuke, /yawn.  We can't straight-up melee things well, so let us at least kite via Shriek / Eli's (or change Shriek to add a possible Stun component), mez, or charm.  More options is never a bad thing.</p><p>Also - I see a lot of people coming down hard on Jeger-Wulf.  Like myself, he's a little unhappy with the class and would like to see some improvements made.  But if people like us truly hated bards, do you think we'd be here in this forum trying to get the devs' attention, or trying to drum up ideas for improvements to the class?   Everyone seems to have the attitudes of either "we don't need fixing", or "if we're broken, why don't YOU give us an idea how to improve it!".  Neither one is helping the situation.  Let's offer some decent criticism or ideas such as the post above, or the idea using echoing.</p><p>*sigh* <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Menaelin]

Instant cast Eli's would be great, and I think it would be a pretty fair improvement to DPS potential that doesn't go overboard.As far as the charm is concerned, yeah, it sucks that it's really short, but I actually use it fairly regularly to pull if I'm hunting among social mobs.

[Mulilla]

<p>Intant cast Eli's would be awsome but i highly doubt that it will be ever implemented, Eli's castable on the run would be easier to justify and less overpowered (although i still think insta cast Eli's wouldn't be overpowered).</p><p> A longer charm would also help a lot.  26-30 seconds charm  would be enough to help, its a 50% increase in duration  but the duration atm is laughable</p>

[Tri]

although instant casting would be fun, the Eli line of spells is your mainsource of spell procs.So if the base cast time is reduced that would mean less procs, and if you study a parseyou'll see that the spell cast vs spell proc ratio is allready very low on a troub.The raiding troub recently got a Wow spell,the grouping troub has a mezz,the solo troub is in deep [Removed for Content] if he's an average player.Overall i'm fond of the class, probably because it brings outthe masochistic in me.

[Menaelin]

<cite>Triag wrote:</cite><blockquote>The raiding troub recently got a Wow spell,the grouping troub has a mezz,the solo troub is in deep [I cannot control my vocabulary] if he's an average player.</blockquote>My troub just turned 70 and since I've come to Kylong, I've had to learn how to solo properly. And I must say, if I do it right, it's actually pretty efficient and fun to boot. Basically, I ranged pull, snare, debuff, shrill ... if the mob stays snared, I just keep shooting it with arrows and using my nukes, if not, I start an HO, cheap shot, backstab, etc.It's not super-fast soloing, but it beats root & nuke any day in terms of fun.

[roces9]

IMO the problem with playing a Troub isn't in our group or solo play (granted we aren't great soloers, but not everyone can solo well all the time), it's in RAID play. In a group I feel like I have some utility. I can CC pretty well with AAs in Charm and Mez, Evac always gives me a chance to save people a trip to the mender, I put up *some* DPS and I bring a variety of buffs that can be switched in and out depending on the situation. Plus I can feel a difference in the group's preformance when I hit PoTM or JC. Raiding is a different story for me. I feel that all I do is: A) Turn on buffs B) Cycle JC C) Hit PoTM when it's up D) Cycle through CAs Sure if the stuff hits the fan I JC whoever needs it, but I really don't feel like I do anything besides hit the same two buffs when they're up and then cycle through my CAs. Plus if I'm onlyJCing and PoTMing, no one will even notice that I'm only hitting two buttons. What I think will help: Give us more temporary, situational buffs like JC and PoTM. Bladedance is a step in the right direction, but it's TOO temporary and situational, and has too long of a refresh. Give us power transfers, power heals, temporary hate reducers, Epic CC (please, please, please!)... something that we can do in a raid that will show our skill in the class. I don't want raid leaders inviting me only because they know I have M1 Alin's and Bria's, and M2 Aria. I want to get invited to a raid because people know that I can play my class well.

[Pik'ee]

<cite>roces9 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raiding is a different story for me. I feel that all I do is: A) Turn on buffs B) Cycle JC C) Hit PoTM when it's up D) Cycle through CAs</blockquote>So, this differs from any other class how?A) Turn on buffsB) Use any temporary buffs you may haveC) Cycle through CAs/spellsThat describes pretty much any class surely?Anyone can see if you're good or not through your parse. If you parse well <i>for your class</i>, no matter what that class is, surely you can feel pride or achievement from that. I feel good to see 2k parses from me, I know I'm doing reasonably well, and still know I should be able to do more, so keep trying. If I see a 2.5k from a wizard say, even though it's a bigger number, you also know that wizard may as well reroll right now.Almost every class brings dps and other stuff to a raid, and we all just cycle CAs/spells. Same difference tbh...

[Menaelin]

<cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>roces9 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raiding is a different story for me. I feel that all I do is: A) Turn on buffs B) Cycle JC C) Hit PoTM when it's up D) Cycle through CAs</blockquote>So, this differs from any other class how?A) Turn on buffsB) Use any temporary buffs you may haveC) Cycle through CAs/spellsThat describes pretty much any class surely?Anyone can see if you're good or not through your parse. If you parse well <i>for your class</i>, no matter what that class is, surely you can feel pride or achievement from that. I feel good to see 2k parses from me, I know I'm doing reasonably well, and still know I should be able to do more, so keep trying. If I see a 2.5k from a wizard say, even though it's a bigger number, you also know that wizard may as well reroll right now.Almost every class brings dps and other stuff to a raid, and we all just cycle CAs/spells. Same difference tbh...</blockquote>I agree with this completely. Everybody is doing the same ol' same ol' during raids. Perhaps somebody gets to pet pull here and there, or a brawler gets to leave raid and go on a feign run to activate some mob, but generally speaking, everybody is just plugging away at their abilities, not really playing an immediate, direct functional role in keeping the raid afloat, other than with their DPS and peripheral contributions (via buffs, etc). In fact, PoTM and Jester's actually make us a bit more active during raids than other classes.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> So, this differs from any other class how?</p><p>It differs in ways that have been discussed on this board ad nauseam. You can't see the difference, which is probably why you like your troub. If more people agreed with you, troubs would be played more.</p><p>> In fact, PoTM and Jester's actually make us a bit more active during > raids than other classes.</p><p>/shrug </p><p>IMO my troub is the least active toon I have in raids - and the least fun.</p>

[Pik'ee]

The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> So, this differs from any other class how?</p><p>It differs in ways that have been discussed on this board ad nauseam. You can't see the difference, which is probably why you like your troub. If more people agreed with you, troubs would be played more.</p><p>> In fact, PoTM and Jester's actually make us a bit more active during > raids than other classes.</p><p>/shrug </p><p>IMO my troub is the least active toon I have in raids - and the least fun.</p></blockquote>1. We've discussed this over and over again, and you have yet to actually explain how the low troub population is the direct result of people actively deciding they DON'T want to play a troub, rather than that they DO want to play some other class. This is a pretty big leap you're taking with your logic, but I don't think you've adequately defended it.2. The vast majority of classes in the game are busy blasting away with their spells and CAs during a raid encounter. Honestly, healers are not very active during raids, unless things get hectic, and most raids that I know of actively attempt to minimize hectic situations. But even though this is the case, people still play healers! In fact, some people (like me) find playing healers quite fun. But in my experience, they're not nearly as active as bards during raids. Again, you CAN be less active as a bard if you want to. The raid will probably be so happy to have you there that, even if you did 400 DPS zonewide, they wouldn't say anything about it, because hey, they need a troub, and they don't want to go burning that bridge by complaining that you're a lazy buffbot. But that is a matter of you deciding that you don't want to take advantage of what's available to your class. Don't worry, everybody else is plugging away at CAs and spells, too. The grass isn't THAT much greener on the other side, if at all.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> you have yet to actually explain how the low troub population is the > direct result of people actively deciding they DON'T want to play a troub, > rather than that they DO want to play some other class.</p><p>You have mis-stated my position. I dont' say that people play other toons because they "DON'T want to play a troub" but because they "want to play the other toon more than they want to play the troub." As far as defending it, I think it stands on its own. It they wanted to play the troub more than they wanted to play the other toon, they would make a troub.> The grass isn't THAT much greener on the other side, if at all.</p><p>It is greener. I have a warlock and illusionist, and they are both more fun than my troub (to me.) If I was the only one who felt this way and people were flocking to play troubs, what I felt wouldn't be of any concern. As the troub is the least-played class, though, it behooves us to consider how to improve it.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent > whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.</p><p>> We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.</p><p>I'm sorry you feel that way. Given that's how you feel - it's probably better for you to stay away from threads titled "Are troubs really that bad?" because I will surely be there. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I see no reason to delete my troub. I enjoy EQ2 tremendously, and will campaign to see improvements made to the troub classs that make it more enjoyable to play. In the meantime, I have 6 other toons to enjoy, and I can bring out my troub if my guild begs for it. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> you have yet to actually explain how the low troub population is the > direct result of people actively deciding they DON'T want to play a troub, > rather than that they DO want to play some other class.</p><p>You have mis-stated my position. I dont' say that people play other toons because they "DON'T want to play a troub" but because they "want to play the other toon more than they want to play the troub." As far as defending it, I think it stands on its own. It they wanted to play the troub more than they wanted to play the other toon, they would make a troub.> The grass isn't THAT much greener on the other side, if at all.</p><p>It is greener. I have a warlock and illusionist, and they are both more fun than my troub (to me.) If I was the only one who felt this way and people were flocking to play troubs, what I felt wouldn't be of any concern. As the troub is the least-played class, though, it behooves us to consider how to improve it.</p></blockquote>1. I still don't understand how one can assume that consideration of the troub even comes into the equation when the average person is selecting a class. It is possible, and I'm sure it has happened, but I don't believe it must <i>necessarily</i> be the case that this occurs.2. Technically, every class <i>could</i> be played by an equal number of people, but realistically, this is not likely to be the case. As such, some class has to be the least played class. I've said it before, but on my server, I see bards all the time. I think it's safe to say that they're among the least played classes in the game, but this doesn't mean that they are an endangered species that needs special attention in order to have its population boosted. We can all agree that troubs need improvement, just like a lot of other classes in this game need improvement, but I don't think the rationale for this should be that the population needs enhancement.

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!</blockquote>I agree with the poster you are attacking here..If you dont wish to read such threads about people that are unhappy with their troub, then don't.. No one forced you to click on this thread and start reading it.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I've said it before, but on my server, I see bards all the time. </p><p>You're a lucky. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I have three toons over 70 and in all my grouping (outside raids or guild HQs runs) I have never grouped with a troub - not once. </p><p>> I think it's safe to say that they're among the least played classes in the > game, but this doesn't mean that they are an endangered species that > needs special attention in order to have its population boosted.</p><p>Your view is rational, so I can't come up with an objective counter-argument. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Speaking for myself, I'd love to see more troubs so I can group with one from time-to-time. I have two casters that have hit 70 without ever grouping with a troub (even in raids). It's a purely subjective argument, but it's how I feel.</p><p>Edit: My main (Karc) would SSOOOOOOO love to have a troubie to group with regularly. I can't even imagine the difference it would make when Karc gets into machine-gun mode. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Raahl]

<p>I'm enjoying my Troubador quite a bit.  Granted I'm high enough yet for raiding, but I knew that the Troubador is a support class when I started him.   So possibly some of the issues others are unhappy with, I accepted right off the bat.</p><p>Could things be better for the troubador class? Certainly.   </p><p>Is it a useless class?  Definately not.</p><p>I have no problems with people constructively posting on the issues of the troubador class.  Yes most of the issues have not been addressed, but I do not see how unconstructive posts will help our class.</p><p>Jeger you have been a great champion of the Troubador class in the past and you are a great source of information and support for others.  I understand that you are frustrated, one of these days the Troubador may get some love from Sony.  Hang in there.</p>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>Now it seems to me here that (granted, I don't play a bard but have a friend who ditched his ranger for a dirge) that the reason behind low troub numbers are getting mixed up.</p><p>The way I see it...bards are a group/raid class. A support class.</p><p>Troubs take some time to solo.</p><p>Most people in the demographics seem to like playing classes that can solo as well as do other things. Being confronted with a class that shines very very dimly in the solo aspect is the critical point against it.</p><p>It has nothing to do with the class being borked, broken, unbalanced or whatever because, as many have posted, troubs can do what they were made to do and can do it well.</p><p>These low numbers that you are seeing Jaeg,most likely has to do with the fact that the mindset of those players you would like to see playing troubs...don't like the troubs soloing capability. And that cuts down on the numbers....the classes that are the least played are either complicated (coercer) or solo slowly (troub...defiler...etc.).</p><p>It doesn't seem to be a class thing to me as much as you are advocating that it is.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> It has nothing to do with the class being borked, broken, unbalanced > or whatever because, as many have posted, troubs can do what they > were made to do and can do it well.</p><p>I think I agree. The troubadour isn't borked, broken, or unbalanced - it's under-populated. As such, I would like to see changes to the class that would attract more players, while keeping the vision of the class intact. (I assume the class vision is group caster support.)</p><p>It's a crying shame my Illusionist has never grouped with a troubadour in 73 levels. :/</p>

[Jehannum]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> It has nothing to do with the class being borked, broken, unbalanced > or whatever because, as many have posted, troubs can do what they > were made to do and can do it well.</p><p>I think I agree. The troubadour isn't borked, broken, or unbalanced - it's under-populated. As such, I would like to see changes to the class that would attract more players, while keeping the vision of the class intact. (I assume the class vision is group caster support.)</p><p>It's a crying shame my Illusionist has never grouped with a troubadour in 73 levels. :/</p></blockquote><p>The class vision is, as it has always been, to provide <strike>defensive buffs</strike> caster support.  We are, and have always been, at war with Oceania.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I guess the trouble is I have difficulty seeing how Sony can make troubadours a more desirable class to play, without either overpowering us as we were at launch or risking the removal of what's drawn existing troubs (other than buffbots, of course) to the class.  With a class which has such broad (if weak) capability, that risk is present in almost any aspect of what we do; I love my trouby for reasons which probably differ greatly from those of any other troubadour here present, and I'd want neither my reasons, nor theirs, to be invalidated.  Bad enough when they changed the dirge/troubadour split from offense/defense to caster/melee - this has the potential to be even worse.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I guess the trouble is I have difficulty seeing how Sony can make > troubadours a more desirable class to play, without either overpowering us</p><p>I'm not here to worry about whether a class is over-powered or not. If I'm having fun, I don't really care if someone else is over-powered. I'm here to worry about class population. If we make changes that increase the troubadour population until it ranks 16th in population out of the 24 classes, but you think it makes the class over-powered that wouldn't worry me a bit.</p><p>Here is why:</p><p>How does one decide if a class is over-powered? What if I think a class is under-powered, and you think it's over-powered - how can we decide who is right? How many points of DPS is worth a power regen buff? How much heal ability is feign death worth? How many points of mitigation is worth the ability to stealth? How much ability to solo is worth being wanted in groups? How much "being wanted in raids" is worth "being bored silly"?</p><p>There is no objective way to calculate the "power" of a class. This means there is no objective way to calculate whether it is "over-powered." However, there are some general indicators. If a lot of people start playing a class, the indication is that it's over-powered. If a lot of players leave a class for another, the indication is it's "under-powered." Anything else is just your opinion against mine.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!</blockquote>I agree with the poster you are attacking here..If you dont wish to read such threads about people that are unhappy with their troub, then don't.. No one forced you to click on this thread and start reading it.</blockquote>I believe the thread solicits all kinds of responses, not just ones that echo negative stuff about troubs. Some of us don't think troubs are "that bad."

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> I've said it before, but on my server, I see bards all the time. </p><p>You're a lucky. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I have three toons over 70 and in all my grouping (outside raids or guild HQs runs) I have never grouped with a troub - not once. </p><p>> I think it's safe to say that they're among the least played classes in the > game, but this doesn't mean that they are an endangered species that > needs special attention in order to have its population boosted.</p><p>Your view is rational, so I can't come up with an objective counter-argument. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Speaking for myself, I'd love to see more troubs so I can group with one from time-to-time. I have two casters that have hit 70 without ever grouping with a troub (even in raids). It's a purely subjective argument, but it's how I feel.</p><p>Edit: My main (Karc) would SSOOOOOOO love to have a troubie to group with regularly. I can't even imagine the difference it would make when Karc gets into machine-gun mode. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote>Ah, okay. Well I see where you're coming from with this. I guess I'm lucky to be on AB, because while troubs are relatively rare, you do see one every now and again, and I actually see plenty of dirges populating Norrath.

[Pik'ee]

<cite>Menaelin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!</blockquote>I agree with the poster you are attacking here..If you dont wish to read such threads about people that are unhappy with their troub, then don't.. No one forced you to click on this thread and start reading it.</blockquote>I believe the thread solicits all kinds of responses, not just ones that echo negative stuff about troubs. Some of us don't think troubs are "that bad."</blockquote>Thankyou Menaelin. I don't think troubs are "that bad", I do of course think we could use/need improvements in both dps and utility.Why I had issue with Jeger there was because he replied to a response from me where I claimed that no matter what (dps) class you play, we all have the same underlying mechanic. Buffs are up, we engage and we cycle through CAs/spells to the best of our ability. He claimed this was not true. That my comment was worthy of "ad nauseum", and I found THAT to be basically an attack on me and my thoughts. Hence my reply.Do not get me wrong, I'd love to see improvements, and think they're needed. I'm still not entirely sure why it is Jeger and others say troub is "boring" to play. Is it because of the relatively low dps? It can't be because you have nothing to do during a fight, we always have abilities up to use, same as most other classes. How is pressing buttons for a troub inherently more boring than pressing buttons for a warlock say?And I will always read posts about people unhappy with troubs, now and then people come up with good ideas and suggestions, and indeed jeger's posts in this thread after the one where he attacked what I said have on the whole been far more detailed and constructive, and that's great. This would be a rubbish forum if we just came here and posted I love my troub!There is no denying there is a low troub population, but I think at least some of this comes from being a more group oriented class. We can solo, sure, but it takes more time, luck, skill, danger, whatever than many other classes. Especially with the game now being so full of solo content, the attraction of a troubadour is low. Up until the release of RoK, a troubadour could solo almost any heroic mob in the game, given a bit of space and a LOT of patience, but now with the mez resist rates/immunities even this is pretty much denied us. Not that I ever considered it "fun" as such, but perhaps others did or still do.

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Menaelin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!</blockquote>I agree with the poster you are attacking here..If you dont wish to read such threads about people that are unhappy with their troub, then don't.. No one forced you to click on this thread and start reading it.</blockquote>I believe the thread solicits all kinds of responses, not just ones that echo negative stuff about troubs. Some of us don't think troubs are "that bad."</blockquote>Doesn't matter what anyone thinks.. There is no need for insults, no matter what side of the line you are on regarding this topic.I personally like my Troub, and think they, as a class, could use some work. I certainly dont think they are *that* bad either..

[Pik'ee]

Before continuing to accuse me of insulting Jeger, read my post directly above yours please, and go back and read the post I made earlier, and Jeger's reply to it. If you still think Jeger didn't try to belittle me and my post, we'll obviously never agree on anything.Except that we both like our troubs and both think they need some work...

[Cadori Seraphim]

Would you feel better if I thought both of you are being rude to one another and that really isn't needed here?<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We are supposed to be bubbly, instrument wielding, song singing ...  Well you get my point <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pik'ee]

Yes! That would give me a warm feeling inside!Now what we need are some positives...what is it people feel we're lacking? Is it simply down to low dps numbers? Jeger enjoys his warlock and Illu more than his troub, both of which put out awesome dps in the right hands. Is this what he, and others, feel is lacking in our class?

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>--snipAnd I will always read posts about people unhappy with troubs, now and then people come up with good ideas and suggestions, and indeed jeger's posts in this thread after the one where he attacked what I said have on the whole been far more detailed and constructive, and that's great. This would be a rubbish forum if we just came here and posted I love my troub!</p><p>snip---</p></blockquote><p>I love my troub</p><p>I had a 70 conji in a raiding alliance.  Usually parsed in the top 3 dps every raid (if not number 1)  Made a troub cause our raid force did not have one, and never turned back. (this was about a year.2 ago) I absolutely love my troub.</p><p>My troub is 80 and still raiding (just started teir 2 now) my conji is sitting at 71.</p><p>I just do not find my troub boring to play.  There is always something to be doing in raid and group fights.  Charm and mez (with aa's) have proven above and beyond how i used them in t7 now when you get to the deeper dungeons in seb/chardok.  when you are fighting the 86 heroics in lower seb, an add can wipe the group, not anymore.</p><p>I think our role in raids have gotten even better, and i have stated before - no more root/daze on POTM.  no more conc slot on self buff.  i had a raidwide of 1900 in our last protectors realm zone.  thats 1900 more raidwide DPS than the autofollo troub does.  Countersong is such a nice touch on those big AoE's as well.</p><p>So in conclusion, i just plain old love my troub.  I just cannot see what it is others find "boring" about the class, other than when you push that button, the big number does not go up over the mobs head.  And if this is solely the case, then i agree that the troub is not the class for you (or whomever it is that wants to pruely see big numbers)</p>

[Frigid2000]

<p>I enjoy playing my troub in raids as well - but unless it's certain named fights, I don't use mez, ever. It gets broken all the time in PuG groups, because people are so used to the "yararagghhh, must.. kill.. everything.. at.. once" and so in love with their AoE's, that I generally get yelled at for doing it. Which is mostly why I run with the guild. But, I'm not complaining about groups either. It's the extreme lack of DPS/soloability that makes it hard.</p><p>And with all due respect, I call BS on the 1900 zonewide parse. </p>

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes! That would give me a warm feeling inside!Now what we need are some positives...what is it people feel we're lacking? Is it simply down to low dps numbers? Jeger enjoys his warlock and Illu more than his troub, both of which put out awesome dps in the right hands. Is this what he, and others, feel is lacking in our class?</blockquote>You know, honestly I think giving us the ability to use poisons like all of the other scout classes can.. would do it for me.We can do dps, I realize this.. but its very gear/weapon dependant also. I think the use of poisons would make that little push that alot of us are seeking. I dont believe it would over do it though either.As far as some of the other comments I have seen, I dont get some of them.. I mean the fact that Troubs are low in numbers I dont feel is because the class needs work. I just feel, and have posted this before, that its really based on what the person finds *fun*. If you like to see uber numbers and high dps, troub is not going to be the class you pick.. and if you like taking the big hits,  like to protect your healers and relying on your healers to keep you alive then again, Troub isnt going to be what you choose. If you like healing your groups wounds and curing their ailments, yet once again Troub isnt going to be for you.We do so many things to *help* an entire group and none of it stands out at all.. like mentioned above.. and some people just dont like that at all.. and want to be in that *spotlight* so to speak.I think that is the basis of why Troubs are one of the least played. NOT because they suck.

[Thrashercat]

<cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Choons@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes! That would give me a warm feeling inside!Now what we need are some positives...what is it people feel we're lacking? Is it simply down to low dps numbers? Jeger enjoys his warlock and Illu more than his troub, both of which put out awesome dps in the right hands. Is this what he, and others, feel is lacking in our class?</blockquote>You know, honestly I think giving us the ability to use poisons like all of the other scout classes can.. would do it for me.We can do dps, I realize this.. but its very gear/weapon dependant also. I think the use of poisons would make that little push that alot of us are seeking. I dont believe it would over do it though either.</blockquote>QFE!I would love to be able to use poisons. I really don't see how it would hinder our class at all. We still wouldn't top the dps parse, so the assasins and brigands could stop worrying about that<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> We would be able to keep up with other scout classes and it would make soloing a bit easier.I have slowly started to see a change on my server and I think its called the dissemination of knowledge. People are LOOKING for bards for a group and actively looking for troubs! I almost died when I saw that. People would ask for dps or healers, but to be singled out...it was kind of amazing. I think that people are finally starting to see the good that we bring to a group and how incredibly useful we are. We are essential for raids, which is another plus. I kind of like being one of the few rare troubs running around.I guess I wish that there would be a little more to distinguish us as a class, besides a jump in dps. Make us more than just a little different from dirges. Just my 2 cp!

[bryldan]

The only thing i would like to see honestly the most is for us to be able to solo better. This mez back up crap is honestly for the birds...Maybe make our charm actually work good??? To have a ally that would help a lot and honestly if we had more of a perm charm it would not make us completely opd. We do less dps than a coercer who can charm so if they can get one we should be able to get one also.

[Artist]

<p>Come on! Maybe bards are meant to be the least played classes? People come to EQ2 at the first time. They see a list of classes and what they think? "I want to be a ninja-style fearsome assassin", "I want to throw fireballs, lightning and stuff like a mighty wizard", "I want to be a bad-a*s corrupted undead master necromancer" etc. Our nice girls tend to spend more time customizing their look, than selecting right class. What they think? "Blood, violence and such are not for me, I want to be a self-sacrificing nurse or, maybe a wise women-doctor", or "Taking care of my beloved chosen, who will protect me with his strong chest, is what I need."</p><p>After playing with our first character we usually create a newer one to try it. This time we make decision taking into consideration server-wide mainstream: "group looking for heal", "group looking for tank", "group looking for dps", "summoners are good for farming", "brigands and swashbucklers rocks in pvp", etc.</p><p>Honestly I see nothing wrong with it. It looks like it should. I cannot imaging Lucan De Lire on a game magazine cover, playing a melody like a troubadour.</p><p>IMHO bards are chosen ether by very romantic persons or by experienced players, wanted to be support-oriented non-healers.</p><p>After all this, let me answer the topic. Are toubs realy that bad?</p><p>PvP. No, not bad at all. Cast-on-run, stun, stifle, stealth, increased run speed, evac, traking... Most troubs have good pvp-ranks.</p><p>Role-play. No, not worse than any other.</p><p>PvE. Depends on personal goals:</p><p>Finding a raid-guild. No, not bad. Many guilds are looking for a troub.</p><p>Finding a guild-group. No, not bad. We are needed.</p><p>Getting in a pick-up raid. Usually not hard.</p><p>Finding a PUG. Usually not hard.</p><p>Playing in a raid without parsing. Not much differs from any dps-class playing. Press buttons. Blame MT, healers and RL. Cry for loot. Etc. Both win and lose is a cause of team work. If you win, you may be proud as any other.</p><p>Playing in a group. Same team-work again.</p><p>Playing in a hardcode gould-rain. I don't know. Honestly I don't care. I respect hardcore players. However it is not for me. Actually upon reading this forum I find that playing troubador in a hardcore guild-raid is boring.</p><p>Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds.</p><p>Solo PvE (heroic mobs and heroic nameds). Yes, really bad.</p>

[Aaramis]

<p>"Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."</p><p>Not quite sure I agree with this.  Pre-50 life against even a white con can be scary, let alone a yellow or an orange.  "Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."  What?  Not even my Ranger can do that, and he has stances, poisons, and higher damaging CA's.  I call "BS" on this comment.  Unless by several seconds you mean "several minutes via kiting and using shouts on the run".</p><p>Now, reading through this entire thread from start to finish, it seems as though most Troubs enjoy raids;  mostly enjoy groups;  but tend to dislike solo.</p><p>I don't think anyone would argue that group or raid Troubadours are boring to play.  Between mezzes, debuffs, shouts, Jesters, PoTM, buffs, etc. it seems most are content with that.</p><p>But I don't think Troubs would be overpowered by adding poison access, or upping our shout damage by up to 25-50%.  Trust me, we wouldn't be overpowered.  And it would let us parse a little higher in groups/raids, but more importantly give us a chance at solo aside from having to mez-nuke.</p><p>One final note - someone previously asked to define "fun".  And while I realize the difficulty in defining this, as it's quite subjective and will vary from person to person, I think the majority of people would define it as being able to enjoy your class despite what situation you are in.  In EQ2 this translates to meaning that you enjoy your Troub in solo, group, PvP, and raid situations.</p><p>Is the Troub fun in all of these situations?</p><p>This thread, as well as the "ideas to improve the Troubadour class" thread, seem to suggest it isn't.</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>What is a Troubadour worth...</p><p>It's just really easy to sum up. </p><p>5x Items with 12+ Power Reg</p><p>2-3 Items with critical hit</p><p>2-4 Items with Fastcast</p><p>A couple of proc Items</p><p>Requiemreflexion: should work like Stoneskin against Areaspells with higher chance (reduced area of things to protect compensated by higher chance to protect), today it's sitting duck in the buff bar. </p><p>Instead of Agility buffing, intelligence would be nicer. </p><p>Maestro should also increase spell casting speed, as it is inferior to Cacophony of Blades. </p><p>We need seriously Melee and Spell crit in our Achivement tree. Dirge and Troubadour are the only 2 of 24 classes that can not skill any kind of critical ability for themself. Easy enough to bring it to DKTM, with an Troubadour/Dirge only add-on, like "+20 Melee, Ranged, Spell Crit if the following is true, Dirge or Troubadour". We need DPS in Raids, as our "worth" has seriously diminished with all those items in RoK. Also DPS would help for leveling up a Bard. </p><p>The Proc in the Bard Agility Line needs the ability "don't proc if target is mezmerised", as this blocks a complete Line for us. </p><p>The third skill in Agility need more level to stop, as now it stops only level 80, and all T8 Epics are higher!</p><p>Our Debuffs need reworking, with the ability to reduce double attack on mobs and lowering their critical chance, with double attack debuff and Spell Crit Debuff for Troubs and Critical Melee debuff for Dirge. </p><p>Our mezz shouldn't be broken by open area effects!</p><p>But all these words are lost in SOE bad customer contact <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Aaramis]

<p>^^ Agreed on everything except the mez.</p><p>The AA lines do need some reworking as well, but I'm not sure if we'll ever get access to melee or spell crits or have DKTM reworked.</p><p>Most other classes have to go down an entire line to get 20% or thereabouts crit in *one* type of attack.  We get 7% in 3 (as we can't use heal crit, really), which more or less evens out.  Plus ours affects groupmates to up their chances too.  So increasing this any more could be overpowered compared to other people's AA lines.</p><p>I'd also add Charm to that list of things to fix, though</p>

[Artist]

<cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>"Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."</p><p>Not quite sure I agree with this.  Pre-50 life against even a white con can be scary, let alone a yellow or an orange.  "Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."  What?  Not even my Ranger can do that, and he has stances, poisons, and higher damaging CA's.  I call "BS" on this comment.  Unless by several seconds you mean "several minutes via kiting and using shouts on the run".</p><p>...skipped...</p></blockquote><p>Solo mobs usually takes from 3 seconds (green trash) to 30-40 seconds (hard orange) to kill. Orange mobs are hard as their description says, but surely possible after moderate debuffing with all, including magic mitigation of int doll (start with it).</p><p>Are you sure you are not confused solo down arrow green trash with heroic groups?</p><p>(That 3 seconds was on 9 levels lower green crab with one arrow down, I just released double shot, one bow auto-atack hit, and 2 or 3 fast CA)</p><p>Simple duo of illusionist + troubadour usually burns everything in a few seconds if it is NOT heroic. Lucky me has two illusionists friends. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>How can I prove that I can kill an orange mob solo in less than 60 seconds, if you don't trust me? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Again, I am NOT talking about HEROIC mobs and nameds. Troubadors are not supposed to kill them, do they?</p>

[Aaramis]

<cite>Artist wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Solo mobs usually takes from 3 seconds (green trash) to 30-40 seconds (hard orange) to kill. Orange mobs are hard as their description says, but surely possible after moderate debuffing with all, including magic mitigation of int doll (start with it).</p><p>Are you sure you are not confused solo down arrow green trash with heroic groups?</p><p>(That 3 seconds was on 9 levels lower green crab with one arrow down, I just released double shot, one bow auto-atack hit, and 2 or 3 fast CA)</p><p>Simple duo of illusionist + troubadour usually burns everything in a few seconds if it is NOT heroic. Lucky me has two illusionists friends. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>How can I prove that I can kill an orange mob solo in less than 60 seconds, if you don't trust me? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Again, I am NOT talking about HEROIC mobs and nameds. Troubadors are not supposed to kill them, do they?</p></blockquote><p>1) Yes, I'm pretty sure I'm not confusing down arrow green solo cons with heroic cons.  I'm also fairly sure I'm not colorblind, or suffer from any sort of lucid problems.  (I'll give you a hint - my character has a Mystic Moppet Billy disguise.  I've played for more than a week :p)</p><p>2) Double-shot, bow auto-attack, and then "2 or 3 fast CA's" does not equate to 3 seconds.  And even on a green down arrow mob 9 levels lower than you, it's still going to take a wee bit of work.  We simply don't have those ultra-high damaging CA's or spells to take something down that fast.</p><p>3) a Troub + any caster can take down monsters fast.  In fact, pretty much any duo in the game can do that (except, perhaps, 2 Wardens :p  ouch...)</p><p>You've also now gone from "I can kill any solo in seconds" to "I can kill an orange mob in less than 60 seconds".  It keeps getting higher and higher.  I think you'll find ingame that it's closer to a minute or 3 in total time.Most people won't argue that a Troub can mez/debuff/nuke most things to death - given time.  But just be careful with the wild boasts that you can kill anything in "seconds" (which usually suggests the lower end of a minute, not 59.999 seconds).</p><p>And no, I don't think Troubs are supposed to kill heroics.  Most Scouts struggle somewhat with heroics, actually, from what I've seen.  Unless you're a Ranger and have a lot of room to kite.</p>

[Artist]

<p>OK. I am level 30 at the moment. I went to Zek, enabled logging, an killed a level 36 ork, taking screenshots. According to ACT the fight was 51 secconds long. Here are the all screens. Sorry for Russian, I play localized version. Harla Dar server.</p><p><a href="http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6894/orangebeforeco3.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...gebeforeco3.jpg</a></p><p><a href="http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9707/orangeafterwa1.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...ngeafterwa1.jpg</a></p><p><a href="http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4273/orangedoneyt5.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/...angedoneyt5.jpg</a></p><p><a href="http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5749/orangeactdd8.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...rangeactdd8.jpg</a></p><p><a href="http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6841/orangestatscx2.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...ngestatscx2.jpg</a></p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>"Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."</p><p>Not quite sure I agree with this.  Pre-50 life against even a white con can be scary, let alone a yellow or an orange.  "Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."  What?  Not even my Ranger can do that, and he has stances, poisons, and higher damaging CA's.  I call "BS" on this comment.  Unless by several seconds you mean "several minutes via kiting and using shouts on the run".</p><p>Now, reading through this entire thread from start to finish, it seems as though most Troubs enjoy raids;  mostly enjoy groups;  but tend to dislike solo.</p><p>I don't think anyone would argue that group or raid Troubadours are boring to play.  Between mezzes, debuffs, shouts, Jesters, PoTM, buffs, etc. it seems most are content with that.</p><p>But I don't think Troubs would be overpowered by adding poison access, or upping our shout damage by up to 25-50%.  Trust me, we wouldn't be overpowered.  And it would let us parse a little higher in groups/raids, but more importantly give us a chance at solo aside from having to mez-nuke.</p><p>One final note - someone previously asked to define "fun".  And while I realize the difficulty in defining this, as it's quite subjective and will vary from person to person, I think the majority of people would define it as being able to enjoy your class despite what situation you are in.  In EQ2 this translates to meaning that you enjoy your Troub in solo, group, PvP, and raid situations.</p><p>Is the Troub fun in all of these situations?</p><p>This thread, as well as the "ideas to improve the Troubadour class" thread, seem to suggest it isn't.</p></blockquote>I didn't start kiting until my late 60s and I seemed to do just fine on white-to-yellow con solo mobs. And I wasn't sitting around waiting for health/mana after every fight, either.Just the other day, I killed a yellow ^ mob without too much trouble, and no, it didn't take 5 minutes and I didn't have to mez him to wait for health regen.I've found it necessary to spec for solo play in order to do so efficiently (I'm roundshield spec'd at the moment), but the same can be said for many other classes in the game. Troubs aren't an especially maligned class. Others have to make sacrifices in order to solo to their potential as well.By the way, how are you kiting? I usually ranged pull, snare, debuff, then cheap shot and go in melee for the rest of it. Are you trying to take down the mob just with arrows or something? If so, yeah, that's going to take you a few minutes each time.

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What is a Troubadour worth...</p><p>It's just really easy to sum up. </p><p>5x Items with 12+ Power Reg <b><span style="color: #cc0000;">(per group member)</span></b></p><p>2-3 Items with critical hit <b><span style="color: #cc0000;">(2-3 items with ranged crit, 2-3 items with spell crit and 2-3 items with heal crit, per group member)</span></b></p><p>2-4 Items with Fastcast <b><span style="color: #cc0000;">(2-4 items with fast cast per group member)</span></b></p><p>A couple of proc Items <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>(1 that procs 50% of the time and another that procs 100% of the time every 3 minutes for everyone else in your group)</b></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>88 str and stamina worth of adornments for your entire group</b></span></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">45% run speed mounts for your entire group</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">35% worth of deaggro for your entire group (minus fighters)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">45% haste item, which stacks with your current haste item for every group member</span></b></p><p>Requiemreflexion: should work like Stoneskin against Areaspells with higher chance (reduced area of things to protect compensated by higher chance to protect), today it's sitting duck in the buff bar. </p><p>Instead of Agility buffing, intelligence would be nicer. </p><p>Maestro should also increase spell casting speed, as it is inferior to Cacophony of Blades. <b><span style="color: #cc0000;"> (ehh im leary in saying it is inferior now that we see no nil effects when using the ability)</span></b></p><p>We need seriously Melee and Spell crit in our Achivement tree. Dirge and Troubadour are the only 2 of 24 classes that can not skill any kind of critical ability for themself. Easy enough to bring it to DKTM, with an Troubadour/Dirge only add-on, like "+20 Melee, Ranged, Spell Crit if the following is true, Dirge or Troubadour". We need DPS in Raids, as our "worth" has seriously diminished with all those items in RoK. <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>(big disagree as our buffs stack with said RoK items)</b></span> Also DPS would help for leveling up a Bard. </p><p>The Proc in the Bard Agility Line needs the ability "don't proc if target is mezmerised", as this blocks a complete Line for us.  <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>(you can click off the poison on your target anytime you need to)</b></span></p><p>The third skill in Agility need more level to stop, as now it stops only level 80, and all T8 Epics are higher!</p><p>Our Debuffs need reworking, with the ability to reduce double attack on mobs and lowering their critical chance, with double attack debuff and Spell Crit Debuff for Troubs and Critical Melee debuff for Dirge. <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b> (possible, interesting idea but we are not broken without this)</b></span></p><p>Our mezz shouldn't be broken by open area effects!  <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>(weird, mine is not)</b></span></p><p>But all these words are lost in SOE bad customer contact <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p></blockquote><p>i fixed your post for you</p><p>Also in reference to the fellow troub who takes several minutes to kill 1 non heroic solo mob, i really recommend reviewing several of the posts on solo play.</p>

[Aaramis]

<p>Menaelin - I use a similar tactic to you, only I tend to pull with a DD shout instead of arrows.  Otherwise, the setup is the same.  As far as kiting goes, if it's white or higher I find as an Arasai (low sta) I tend to get pumelled in straight up melee, and have to kite for a little while first softening the mob up with debuffs and DD shouts before I close to melee.  Essentially the same tactic as you mentioned, but with a bit more kiting involved, that's all.  On occasion, I'll open up with the stealthed backstab, but I find it to be more trouble than it's worth, as you then have to debuff and shout while getting pumelled, which takes up a lot of precious time.</p><p>It seems the main difference between us is that I've thus far refused to use a shield.  Call me stubborn, but I don't feel that I should *have* to spec shield to be able to solo.  That may change when my Troub gets high enough for Kunark, though.  We'll see.</p><p>As for the pictures - thanks for posting those.  30 was one of those levels where armor made a huge difference (pre-30, armor sets aren't the best, unless you get Tim. Deep gear).  But that was well done soloing an orange, I'm impressed.  I didn't think it was possible without kiting.</p>

[Repler]

You can cancel the poison any time you want, but why should we have to settle for that?  When the poison procs every three seconds, and you are already in a battle, right-clicking and canceling something takes time that we shouldn't need to be wasting.  I don't understand why you would just brush that off because there is a "fix", there's no reason "poison concoction" shouldn't be toggle able.  I don't mind having to pay attention to my spells maintained window, but it only really hurts while soloing and a few seconds in a solo battle can hurt when you aren't a tank and can't heal yourself.  It REALLY hurts when it breaks your mez and you then have 15 seconds to figure something else out.  Is manually cancelling buffs and procs part of the gameplay mechanic of other classes?

[Menaelin]

<cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Menaelin - I use a similar tactic to you, only I tend to pull with a DD shout instead of arrows.  Otherwise, the setup is the same.  As far as kiting goes, if it's white or higher I find as an Arasai (low sta) I tend to get pumelled in straight up melee, and have to kite for a little while first softening the mob up with debuffs and DD shouts before I close to melee.  Essentially the same tactic as you mentioned, but with a bit more kiting involved, that's all.  On occasion, I'll open up with the stealthed backstab, but I find it to be more trouble than it's worth, as you then have to debuff and shout while getting pumelled, which takes up a lot of precious time.</p><p>It seems the main difference between us is that I've thus far refused to use a shield.  Call me stubborn, but I don't feel that I should *have* to spec shield to be able to solo.  That may change when my Troub gets high enough for Kunark, though.  We'll see.</p><p>As for the pictures - thanks for posting those.  30 was one of those levels where armor made a huge difference (pre-30, armor sets aren't the best, unless you get Tim. Deep gear).  But that was well done soloing an orange, I'm impressed.  I didn't think it was possible without kiting.</p></blockquote>I didn't spec for roundshield until I was about 68 or 69, but it has definitely helped in RoK. Taking mobs in close quarters is still not such a great idea, but you get the Round Bash ability, which is invaluable in terms of immobilizing the mob, especially since the closed encounter AE interrupt doesn't always proc for a knockdown.I would argue that you don't <i>have</i> to spec this way in order to solo with a troub. But if you want to solo more efficiently, it will help a lot. And again, I've found this to be the case with several classes in the game, not just troubs. Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Menaelin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Menaelin - I use a similar tactic to you, only I tend to pull with a DD shout instead of arrows.  Otherwise, the setup is the same.  As far as kiting goes, if it's white or higher I find as an Arasai (low sta) I tend to get pumelled in straight up melee, and have to kite for a little while first softening the mob up with debuffs and DD shouts before I close to melee.  Essentially the same tactic as you mentioned, but with a bit more kiting involved, that's all.  On occasion, I'll open up with the stealthed backstab, but I find it to be more trouble than it's worth, as you then have to debuff and shout while getting pumelled, which takes up a lot of precious time.</p><p>It seems the main difference between us is that I've thus far refused to use a shield.  Call me stubborn, but I don't feel that I should *have* to spec shield to be able to solo.  That may change when my Troub gets high enough for Kunark, though.  We'll see.</p><p>As for the pictures - thanks for posting those.  30 was one of those levels where armor made a huge difference (pre-30, armor sets aren't the best, unless you get Tim. Deep gear).  But that was well done soloing an orange, I'm impressed.  I didn't think it was possible without kiting.</p></blockquote>I didn't spec for roundshield until I was about 68 or 69, but it has definitely helped in RoK. Taking mobs in close quarters is still not such a great idea, but you get the Round Bash ability, which is invaluable in terms of immobilizing the mob, especially since the closed encounter AE interrupt doesn't always proc for a knockdown.I would argue that you don't <i>have</i> to spec this way in order to solo with a troub. But if you want to solo more efficiently, it will help a lot. And again, I've found this to be the case with several classes in the game, not just troubs. Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).</blockquote><p>I have to agree.  not necessary, but it makes a HUGE difference in soloability.  the added stun, plus block, plus DA (plus fortissimo which helps all group members and does not require the shield).   </p><p>the mastercrafted roundshield at 72 is not horrible, as well there are some pretty good roundshields you can purchase if you do the faction quests (if i recall jinisk has a godo round shield)</p>

[Artist]

<p>I think the only problem with troubadour is its lack of good scores. If each player in party/raid is scored, we always are at the bottom, no matter how the scores are calculated (usually by ACT, or by solo-ability, or by population, etc.).</p><p>We always stay back, looking how our friends, who have chosen "better" classes, win the first place.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> If you still think Jeger didn't try to belittle me and my post, > we'll obviously never agree on anything.</p><p>It's hard to communcate via postings what the emotional content is. I did not intend to belittle you at all, although I see it could be taken that way. I apologize for that, but here is the point I was trying to make:</p><p>How troubs differ from other classes has been discussed again and again on these boards. Some people see it and some don't. Those who who enjoy their troubs don't see a difference. Those that don't like enjoy their troubs do see a difference. </p><p>In all the discussions, I have never seen anyone change their mind. I have never seen anyone on my side say "You're right!! I like my troub again!! I'm going to start playing it right now." I have never seen anyone on your side say "You're right!! I don't like my troub anymore. I'm rerolling tonight!"</p><p>Because of this, I think discussing whether troubs differ from other classes is pointless. Some think so and some don't. What should be discussed is whether the class should get improvements based on the low population numbers, and if so, what improvements should be considered.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they > want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).</p><p>My troub is never wearing a roundshield. Call it style, or prejudice, but he's never putting one on.</p><p>> I think the only problem with troubadour is its lack of good scores</p><p>My Mystic never gets good scores, but I find him fun to play. It's more than just the bad scores, although better scores might help.</p>

[Menaelin]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they > want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).</p><p>My troub is never wearing a roundshield. Call it style, or prejudice, but he's never putting one on.</p></blockquote>People who feel this way have no right to complain about soloability of the class, then.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> People who feel this way have no right to complain > about soloability of the class, then</p><p>The concept of "the right to complain" seems a little subjective. On the one hand, I could understand people who think none of us has the right to complain; on the other hand, I could understand someone saying that all of us have the right to complain. Probably this is another area not really worth arguing. JMO</p>

[Aaramis]

<cite>Menaelin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they > want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).</p><p>My troub is never wearing a roundshield. Call it style, or prejudice, but he's never putting one on.</p></blockquote>People who feel this way have no right to complain about soloability of the class, then.</blockquote><p>I can see both points on this one, but that's a bit of a harsh comment.</p><p>It just seems as if weapon choices aren't very well balanced at the moment.  There <i>should</i> be a fair tradeoff.  A sword / shield Troub should have lower dps than dual-wield, but much better defense, but on the flip side, a dual wielding Troub should be able to kill mobs faster, sacrificing defense for damage output.  Currently this isn't the case, at least as far as I can tell.</p><p>I don't know.  Maybe this is a rather complex issue, and I'm generalizing.  Perhaps stances are also a problem here, and are affecting our toe-to-toe survival rate.  One could also argue that haste does little, although one would think a dual-wielder with haste should be a dps machine.  Whatever the case, I'd personally like the option to choose between sword/shield and dual wield without feeling somewhat gimped by choosing one over the other.  And I can understand people who may want to use one weapon combination over the other, without feeling like they <i>have</i> to go with one style or they're gimped.</p>

[Kreylin]

I really don't know why people complain about the solo abilities of the troubadour.  I soloed my troub from level 1 to level 66 before I started grouping with my friends doing EoF group content (CoV, OoB, Unrest, etc.).  I just did one solo quest after another, and a couple of Heroic quests I was able to get away with due to stealth and what not.  Since RoK has come out, I have soloed my way, so far, to 77 doing nothing but solo quests.  Against RoK mobs, I parse in the 800's on an average fight, 900 on a good fight, and I hit 1K ever now and then as well.  In fights that are even close, I simply mez the mob, then open with the stealth attack, stun, nuke, and remez as necessary.  On mobs with lots of friends around him, I charm all his friends away to their deaths before moving in to kill the mob I want (assuming he can't be charmed because if he can, that's even easier).  I have almost no AP's detecated to soloing.  My AP's are in group buffing (STR 4/4/6/8/2, WIS 4/4/6/8/2, INT 4/4/8 ).  In the Troub tree, I have points in Charm (5) and Mez (5), power (5) and health regen (5), wards for our resist buffs (3 and 2), 1 to increase spell range by 5, 1 in the end ability in the tree with Charm and Mezz,  5 and 5 in our single target Nukes, and I can't even remember the rest.  The point is, I have nothing in AGI or STA, and I solo just fine.  However, you can't fight like, say, a Shadow Knight and expect to win.  I played my Shadow Knight twink from 40 to 49 over the course of a couple weeks, and then went back to my troub.  Took my 3 days to get back into troub fighting.  Learn to fight like a troub and you'll solo fine.

[missing_peace]

<cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite> <blockquote>It just seems as if weapon choices aren't very well balanced at the moment.  There <i>should</i> be a fair tradeoff.  A sword / shield Troub should have lower dps than dual-wield, but much better defense, but on the flip side, a dual wielding Troub should be able to kill mobs faster, sacrificing defense for damage output.  Currently this isn't the case, at least as far as I can tell. <p>I don't know.  Maybe this is a rather complex issue, and I'm generalizing.  Perhaps stances are also a problem here, and are affecting our toe-to-toe survival rate.  One could also argue that haste does little, although one would think a dual-wielder with haste should be a dps machine.  Whatever the case, I'd personally like the option to choose between sword/shield and dual wield without feeling somewhat gimped by choosing one over the other.  And I can understand people who may want to use one weapon combination over the other, without feeling like they <i>have</i> to go with one style or they're gimped.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with your assessment.  I tend to use a shield when solo or whenever I need to tank, and I prefer to dual wield when in a group.  The problem is that a shield gives only a minor increase to defense and a minor decrease to damage.  The opposite for dual wielding, with a minor increase in damage and a minor decrease for defense.  We are barely moving out of the middle territory either way.</p><p>Part of this is bad itemization for bards.  There are no really good shields available outside of a raid and even when raiding a decent one has never appeared for me.  I currently have the shield of deft flanking from jinisk.  While it has very nice effects for a bard, it is only level 72 which significantly lowers the block percentage against high level encounters.  And if you want to go for maximum damage with dual wield then there are far too many good items that are class restricted.  Bards cast spells, too, you know.</p><p>There are so many little changes that could be made to really help us along, but most never get addressed.  Poison concoction still needs to be changed to a DD.  The achievements which increase buffs by percentages instead need to add secondary effects (I suggest abilities such as extra blocking to the defense buff and crits or double attack to the haste buff.)  We still have abilities of dubious worth such as requiem of reflection.  The charm ability really should be reworked.  Buff/debuff scaling needs another going over.  Bards are still sullen over run speed issues.</p><p>Still, this is not the worst that the class has ever been, but it is also not the best that they have been.  I just wish that some of the issues would be resolved.  It's obvious where the problems lie, but there never seems to be any time dedicated to fixing them.</p>

[Menaelin]

I don't understand what's so harsh about my last comment. A troub can solo with any AA build, but there are builds that improve general soloability, just like with many other classes. It seems that we have this tendency to think that troubs are the only ones who have to make sacrifices in that regard, but this is simply not the case. If anybody can tell me why troubs should be great soloers, regardless of their AA build, I'll be listening.

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>missing_peace wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aaramis wrote:</cite> <blockquote>It just seems as if weapon choices aren't very well balanced at the moment.  There <i>should</i> be a fair tradeoff.  A sword / shield Troub should have lower dps than dual-wield, but much better defense, but on the flip side, a dual wielding Troub should be able to kill mobs faster, sacrificing defense for damage output.  Currently this isn't the case, at least as far as I can tell. <p>I don't know.  Maybe this is a rather complex issue, and I'm generalizing.  Perhaps stances are also a problem here, and are affecting our toe-to-toe survival rate.  One could also argue that haste does little, although one would think a dual-wielder with haste should be a dps machine.  Whatever the case, I'd personally like the option to choose between sword/shield and dual wield without feeling somewhat gimped by choosing one over the other.  And I can understand people who may want to use one weapon combination over the other, without feeling like they <i>have</i> to go with one style or they're gimped.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with your assessment.  I tend to use a shield when solo or whenever I need to tank, and I prefer to dual wield when in a group.  The problem is that a shield gives only a minor increase to defense and a minor decrease to damage.  The opposite for dual wielding, with a minor increase in damage and a minor decrease for defense.  We are barely moving out of the middle territory either way.</p><p><i><b><span style="font-size: x-small;">Part of this is bad itemization for bards.  There are no really good shields available outside of a raid and even when raiding a decent one has never appeared for me.  I currently have the shield of deft flanking from jinisk.  While it has very nice effects for a bard, it is only level 72 which significantly lowers the block percentage against high level encounters.  And if you want to go for maximum damage with dual wield then there are far too many good items that are class restricted.  Bards cast spells, too, you know.</span></b></i></p><p>There are so many little changes that could be made to really help us along, but most never get addressed.  Poison concoction still needs to be changed to a DD.  The achievements which increase buffs by percentages instead need to add secondary effects (I suggest abilities such as extra blocking to the defense buff and crits or double attack to the haste buff.)  We still have abilities of dubious worth such as requiem of reflection.  The charm ability really should be reworked.  Buff/debuff scaling needs another going over.  Bards are still sullen over run speed issues.</p><p>Still, this is not the worst that the class has ever been, but it is also not the best that they have been.  I just wish that some of the issues would be resolved.  It's obvious where the problems lie, but there never seems to be any time dedicated to fixing them.</p></blockquote><p>I agree on the itemization aspect.  I recently picked up the sheild of deft flanking from Jinisk, and i agree the effect bonuses are nice, but the procection is barely better than mastercrafted, and the direct stats (str, sta, agi) are actually worse than mastercrafted.  So far i have seen 0 roundshields drop in teir 1 or 2 raid zones.   I also have done Maidens chamber, CoA, Vaults of eternal sleep, chelsith, lower chardok and lower seb a gazillion times and have yet to see even 1 roundshield drop.</p><p>The only t8 rounshield, other than master crafted, or faction reward that i have seen comes from VP, which is just a wee bit out of our range yet >.<</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I don't understand what's so harsh about my last comment.</p><p>I think it's because you said people don't even have the "right" to complain if they aren't willing to wear a roundshield to solo. Unlike some, I'm not worried about soloability, because wherever my troub goes, my wife comes along with her templar, but surely people have the right to complain as they see fit.</p><p>> A troub can solo with any AA build, but there are builds that improve > general soloability, just like with many other classes</p><p>It's not just the build, you have to use a roundshield.</p>

[Galim]

<p>I have absolutely no problem soloing with my troub.  Im specced for groups and raids.  I really dont see what the fuss is about when I read threads like this one.  </p><p>My history pretty much mirrors what KevinT wrote.  My solo dps is usually >1k in RoK, and I rarely need to mezz mobs to kill them...I only need to mezz adds, or when I have been stupid enough to pull with low health <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I rarely need to mezz mobs to kill them...I only need to mezz adds, > or when I have been stupid enough to pull with low health <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Not sure what to say here. As I said, I don't really worry about soloability with my toons, but Jeger frequently has to mezz mobs to kill them. I use him to farm nodes now (stealthing in and mining behind enemy lines.) If a mob sees me while mining I can't really kite it or hit it with a lot of spells before it reaches me. With blue ^ normal mobs, I have to mezz about one time in five.</p>