SICK OF MONKS BEING BROKEN/SCREWED

[Hobix]

Ok, I love my monk.  He is level 77 120 AA's that i had to attain solo.... Why because no one wants a monk in there group.  We aren't really tanks... We aren't really Dps... (here it comes, the people saying we are both...) Tonight was the final straw.  Since RoK came out i have been in maybe 3 groups,  and I am on an extremely populated server.   Only because we cant tank like a gaurd/zerker or Dps like an assassin.  Tonight in 70/79 chat I saw, "Group LFM have 80 gaurd 79 mystic for COA." so i sent the guy a tell saying 77 monk LFG.  His reply was sorry we need Dps.  OK maybe he doesn't realize that we can dps also, but I have played a gaurdian, assassin, ranger, swashbuckler, and brigand at all 70 and the only one we consistently out dps is the gaurdian.  We have almost no group/raid uses, the only thing a monk really does for a raid is pull or FD if we wipe, and our one raid wide buff.  Something seriously needs to be done.  Plus to top it off i read tonight that they are screwing our FD over by making it a click toggle buff... WOW.

[Thrakkorzog]

I don't understand all these hard knock life stories other monks keep posting. I get into groups for RoK dungeons every day without all this unfounded monk hate. I was main tank in CoA at least 4 times, I even tanked Chelsith without someone questioning if I could. I get in groups who need DPS if they can't find a full DPS class right away because people know monks bring nice group benefits like group FD and Altruism (sometimes). Maybe it's that my server has learned better. Lots of high level monks on my server who are better tanks then most guardians and most people know them.

[Deathspell]

I think a lot of the times you can blame the healer for making tanks look bad.It's easy to blame the tank when things go bad in the group, but numerous times I noticed that just recplacing the healer can do wonders.

[WackyDakky]

<cite>Thrakkorzog wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't understand all these hard knock life stories other monks keep posting. I get into groups for RoK dungeons every day without all this unfounded monk hate. I was main tank in CoA at least 4 times, I even tanked Chelsith without someone questioning if I could. I get in groups who need DPS if they can't find a full DPS class right away because people know monks bring nice group benefits like group FD and Altruism (sometimes). Maybe it's that my server has learned better. Lots of high level monks on my server who are better tanks then most guardians and most people know them.</blockquote><p>I'm just curious, are you in fabled/raid gear?</p><p>I can't take a hit at 78, but I'm in mostly quest dropped gear.  I don't raid due to time restrictions and general hermit-ness.</p><p>I'm asking because saying that a monk is able to tank when in full fabled gear kind of skews our representation.  I know for a fact that I couldn't tank anything that another tank could because I take so much damage each hit.  My defensive stance doesn't seem to help at all and it's an Adept 3 version.  It's not that I suck as a tank, it's pure mathematics.  I'm an ogre with a ton of HP but I get beat like a red headed stepchild, even with a 65%+ evasion score.</p><p>From a mathematical point of view, I don't see how a monk can out tank anyone who can wear a shield simply due to the uncontested defense a shield gives.</p>

[Thrakkorzog]

No I am in mostly Mastercrafted / Legendary equipment I have found from quests and some loot in dungeons. I am Specced to tank AA wise and I try to have a lot of Agi and Str gear.

[Bladewind]

<p>I've had a similar experience as Muris, but I also built a tanking reputation in my guild and alliance long ago, so I do not do pickups often.  When I do, I tend to let a plate tank MT if present so long as they do a decent job, but I will step in if things go poorly.  I join pickups as either role - I don't care so long as I can roll on loot and/or get quest updates <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />  </p><p>I'm specced for tanking, but that also means a lot dps skills along the way.  I am 488 agi, 44862 wis, 44872 int in kos and have all tanking abilities, all aggro control abilities, and 4-5 dps skills in eof.  A lot of our dps skills also function as aggro skills, and some of the aggro AAs conveniently have both tanking and dps purposes.  I picked up 448 agi with my 20 extra AAs, and it has been a real boon.  Both damage arts and tanking abilities cycle and cast faster with the new spec.  The faster casting also lets me displace fewer auto attacks, giving even more damage/aggro.  Gearwise, I carry a dps suit and a tanking suit.  When appraising potential tank gear, i look for uncontested bonuses, sta, health, str, defensive procs, and then anything that might boost dps (damage = threat).  Agi tends to come on this gear anyway, so I rarely consider looking for it alone.  Also, defense is the worst type of avoidance, so I look more for +parry or +deflect items.</p><p>For every non-monk that tries to tell me monks are not tanks, I have also met a brawler who thinks they cannot tank.  The perception issue is as much the brawler community's fault as it is fallout from the screwy uncontested mechanic.  If more brawlers would actually try/practice at tanking, they would see that we are indeed well-suited for the task.</p><p>Yeah, we have some contested avoidance issues, but that really only effects raid tanking, and, even then, can be compensated for quite a bit.  We have the exact same survivability as a plater against heroics and only have real difficulty when facing orange+ con raid nameds.  Do I want this fixed?  Of course.  Does it prevent me from being a sterling tank for 98% of the game's content?  Nope.</p><p>Some of our higher end t8 gear adds an appreciable amount of uncontested avoidance, so we may even shake out alright in the high end raiding category as tanks, once properly geared for the tier.</p><p>grammar edits</p>

[Nerill]

I've tanked CoA ( in Seb ) twice and Charsis: Vaults once with 2 healers all three times. It went fine.Although, I am in raid gear so that might not count. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />However, I am pretty much DPS speced in my AA trees. Wis - 4-4-8-6-1Int - 4-7-8-4-1Agi - 4-8-8Also, maybe the perception of Monks changes drastically from server to server. On Unrest, it seems that Monks are viewed as we should be ( mediocre tanks / mediocre to decent DPS ).

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>It's a perception thing barring raid targets that screws the brawlers over really.</p><p>In groups, to be turned down as a SK or a zerker because "we need dps" bites and I can imagine as a monk it bites even worse.</p><p>I've had brawlers tank for me while my zerker did dps and it worked out fine and vice versa.</p><p>They can tank heroics just fine anywhere. Raiding is another story but yea...its mostly player perception.</p>

[Hobix]

I never said that i cant tank or DPS. In fact i tanked last night in COA the whole time in offensive stance and outdps'ed the wizard that said monks aren't good dps.  I am just sick of not having a real raid use.  Raid guilds usually only want one monk... and on the pvp server i play on we are abundant.  Wish all of the monks out there could have seen it though when i posted the zone wide parse for COA and beat the Wizard by 300dps overallSuspect 77 monk Nagafen

[mattmandude]

While some of you may not agree with his situation on the server of not getting groups/being able to tank and such, he has every reason in the world to be tired of being smashed down, and nerfed to a class no one will really want to play eventually.I didn't feel this way before the FD nerf, but now that it's going live all the other problems we've been fighting, it just seems THAT much worse/wrists

[Anjin]

<p>Have tanked and completed all RoK heroic instances with a Templar and Fury (possibly the worst healer combination for a monk).</p><p>Anjin</p><p>EDIT: Should be able to do it with a single <u>decent</u> shammy.</p><p>EDIT2: The FD changes does really suck.  Once you get to 80, Peel is absolutely fantastic (for group and raid OT), respec AA's to choose Altruism, which is again fantastic for grouping and raiding.</p><p>Honestly don't get too wound up atm (apart from the FD nerf), tanking below lvl 80 in the harder instances is a no-no, so get top 80 and then see how things fare.</p>

[Nokrahs]

except for the FD change I can't exactly tell much bad stuff about my tanking either.I'm currently OT on our Raids and it works just fine with the correct setup.Group Dungeons are a breeze and fun clearing them every day.since I used to actually play the full timeline troughout the expansions including Raidgame, my Gearis ready for Kunark.to be honest but unexperienced Monks not even max Level eventually with only decent gear on their chars shouldn't actually posting board nonsense and work on their char and of course their playing abilities instead.always comparing the class with other fighter or scout classes won't help you playing the brawler well.of course there is always the option to play a Guardian, Swash or whatever is cool if the Monk class doesn't suityou'r playstyle.Loving a Monk, playing new content but lacking gear/level and experience doesn't make Monks a "broken/screwed" class.Nok

[Bewts]

<p>Tanked CoA as a 77 Monk with a Warden/Mystic healer setup.  Group also included a Swashy, Wiz and forget the other class.  I was hesitant to tank it because I had run the instance the prior day when I was level 76.  We don't tank superbly with multiple mobs in an encounter but in an instance like CoA where everything is a single mob ^^^ encounter... we do really well - even in offensive like I have.</p><p>I'm glad the FD change is being reverted back, it was a change that was unwelcome that obviously led to some less desireable results.</p><p>I was surprised how many players in the channels tonight and even in my guild viewed FD as an unfair skill brawlers had.  I won't say everyone thinks that, but it definitely struck me as significant how many people spoke out with similar opinions on the fairness or unfairness of our ability to FD.</p>

[millfac]

hmmm, the monk in my guild is in all RoK treasured/Mc/Legendary and he generally tops our parses with a ZW of between 2.5-3.2k and he often will tank epics in our raids.Long story short I have no idea what you're talking about. He goes through every RoK instance grouped every day, no trouble finding groups... EVER... as far as I can tell there is absolutely nothing wrong with monks.

[djinnz]

<p>im gate crashing a little here as im actually a bruiser, but just wanted to ask about tanking experiences in maidens. i tried with a inq and my defiler healing, we actually managed ok until we got to the scorpian (the one that drops the quest update as a body drop) </p><p>this mob owned my bruiser over and over, no matter what i tried. starngley being oin offensive stance with dps gear on i lived just as long as in full tank gear and stance. we did kill him in the end just full out burning with my bruiser in offensive. i have never really had a problem healing guardians against this mob, left me scratching my head as to what the problem was.</p><p>when we got to the sisters, again we really struggled and in the end i had to admitt defeat and we got a very well geared shadowknight in who pretty much breezed it. i have tanked the final name in maidens very easily infact my bruiser held agro better than the guardians i have healed through it.</p><p>gear wise im t7 raid gear (no contested) mixed with legendry drops and quest rewards from t8.</p><p>back on topic, i think brawlers are exceptional experience tanks when played well, there are classes they fit better with, try for temp / shaman (a warden can be very handy also as there mellee buff pracitcally negates the negative impact of being in def stance, with the exception of the proc and agression boost) combo for heals, add a dirge and you will be a tanking demi god <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> like any role it takes time to learn, and your bound to wipe more at first as you find what works for you. most of my tanking skills (they arent really skills but cant think what else to call them) i picked up duoing with my defiler over the last 3 years and transfered to a group setting. dont give up!</p>

[Anjin]

<p>The key for me with the scorpian named is where to tank him.  He resets when he gets too far out of the room, so work out a suitable spot bearing that in mind.  After pull (ensure nobody takes aggro on incoming and during the fight or he will reset), max debuff and dps like crazy!</p><p>With the 3 sisters, tank 2 and leave the big hitter until last and kill the one with the group buff 1st (I won't say which ones) .  They do spawn/reset in different configurations though so don't assume the one say directly ahead will be the same each time.</p><p>The last mob is amazing easy, you just need patience and to ensure nubs don't cast dots.</p><p>If I have a couple of healers, defiler & warden rocks for me.  The defiler goes without saying, but the warden can heal so quickly and also allows me to go into def stance if needs be while still keeping +crushing up at a decent level.  And yeah, a dirge makes a massive difference, hence me having a dirge on another account <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Altruism rocks too.</p><p>My monk (Anjin) is lvl 80 and I'm levelling up my Berserker and Dirge (both 7<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> atm.  Although tanking with my monk is harder than the zerker, it's far more enjoyable in a lot of ways.  Get a wizzie or warlock on your group and keeping encounter aggro without crane flock is a mission in itself <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Khandor]

Meh, I got backstabbed by the guild I was in back during KoS.. so I was forced to solo when I was literally robbed of fabled gear..I hate tanking, I'm built for DPS, but I'm mainly a soloer now. Still working up to level 80 since I don't have too much time to play, but prior to KoS I didn't really have trouble finding a group, it was just finding a group where I didn't have to tank that was the problem. Each one seemed to be pretty good tbh, the people were nice and such and never were a problem. Right now, playing, I am having a bit of trouble soloing mobs, I'm finding that I'm waiting for Dev fist to be up before I engage a mob, and usually when soloing I can usually do one white/yellow mob at a time then have to wait for full regen *and this is without everburning blaze active.* But otherwise it's been okay. Oh, and I'm in almost full level 72 mastercrafted leather, with wu's shoulders as my shoulders and marr's cloak and some T7 KoS fables I managed to grab when I could. The weapon I'm using is the bo of flowing blood or whatever it's called, seemed to be better than the KoS katar's I had from the claymore questline. I'm also 4-4-7-8-1 Wis and 4-4-8-6-1 Int with 27 points in monk tree's *focusing 3 on every attack skill available so far* I've changed it around a lot in the past months but I do pretty good dps in a group.I hear a lot of people saying the class is broken and that it's all messed up and horrible, but I really haven't seen a lot of these accusations comming true. People complain about the AA lines, and I really haven't had much of a problem with them myself. I think they definetly could use a buff *combination for example* but I really have no issues with em.I guess when I think about it, when I would raid or do the groups, I really had to put out a ton of effort to do good dps, and would often get outdps'd by bruisers and other classes who had less gear than me, and that's okay, but it kinda sucks when a guild see's a monk *at least on crushbone* and if you're not in the top 5 dps of the raid, you're not worth bringing to a raid, which IMO is pretty [Removed for Content]. I've tanked a bit, and I don't really have a problem, but ya know, it really does come down to the healer, there has been MANY groups where I find myself healing the tank with my heal or myself while tanking and when that happens I know something isn't right. Groups are only as good as their tank and healer, and tanking really isn't that hard, but being a good healer, that is hard. Basically, the OP has his points and they may be correct in his situation, as it with most the people who come to the monk forum and complain. They all have their reasons and as far as I know, they're probably right, but it's different for every person really and we can't sit here and put down one person because they got [Removed for Content] off cuz they got shafted. I also see a lot of people comming on and telling these people off and basically calling them idiots when in reality, the OP of such posts has crap gear and trying to make due, and people who are putting them down are in full fabled raid gear.Personally I think the monk class has had it's set of nerfs that I think were completely not needed whatsoever *I still remember the avoidance nerf way back when..* and though I have had no real trouble getting into groups, I can somewhat relate because I often hear that guilds won't even take monks if they're not the best dps in the guild regardless of guild. The guild I got screwed in often times would not take me even though I could outdps a lot of classes in the raid, and they wouldn't take me simply because they didn't have a [Removed for Content] clue as to what a monk was about and what our uses were in raid. Everyone wants us to be a plate warrior or an assassin/ranger and that just doesn't happen because a lot of people running these groups are absent minded and full of crap anyways.Monks can be tanks, and they can be dps, but just not the way everyone -else- thinks they should be. I love my monk, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some mediocre players sit back and think they know everything about a class they don't play.

[XunSarak]

<p>Was going to rant about getting backstabbed by a guild that I helped build; being frequently "exchanged" for a coercer or illusionalist or assassin or brigand by the raid leader and no access to raid gear. But there doesn't seem to be a point.</p><p>I really like playing a monk (been a Monk since day two (couldn't connect day 1)). I have tried most other classes but keep deleting them and going back to my monk.</p><p>Solo now about 98% of the time and enjoy what I can. Mostly exploring and doing quests. </p><p>Groups? Not many. And those I do get an invite are either 6-10 lvls below me.</p><p>Raids? None. All "LFM" now list specific classes and never a monk. Got tired of responding to tank or DPS calls. Usually no one would even respond. Mostly am not even considered a "Utility" class.</p><p>Disgusted? Yes. But not enough to give up. Yet.</p>

[smokedout]

well my bruiser is 80 with 140 aa's  with 2 pieces of MC, rest is quest'd/drop'd legendary couple nonraiding fabled pieces and i tank almos as well as any plate tank in any t8 instance, while still doin upwards of 2/2.5 k dps...  brawlers rock

[Liberated]

<p>I am a player that came back from the game on nov 23 after being away for nearly 3 years. Got it at release and didnt like it. My character I created was a monk and I have dabbled with other classes. I am now level 54 with him. I constantly read the forums about how monks are misstreated and such. But I have never expierenced it really. When in groups I find I am constantly out parsing everyone else. But then again I am only level 54 and hoping it continues to be this way all the way up to 80 and beyond. Perhaps the group/raid invites will slow or maybe this is isolated to certain servers? I play on befallen with all my chars and have never seen any monk discrimination.</p>

[Idoru]

I as well was gone for the game for about 2 years, had a monk to 45 back in the days before AA and just started playing again. In the few days I've been brawling, I've picked up 3 levels with exp turned off and 38 aa all through quests, named mobs and some exploring.Are monks broken? No. Screwed? Probably. Who's fault is that though? I don't think it's anyone's fault but poorly played brawlers. You see it often in other classes too. I grouped with a Paladin once when I was on my Ranger, and the Paladin didn't taunt or even try to help when we were grouped and I was taking the hits, just kind of stood there and watched me get pounded. More often a bad example of a class is one that's very misunderstood by it's own player. Today I played as DPS on my monk with a paladin healing the shadowknight in the group, with a monk heal thrown in there from time to time. We owned Cazic-Thule pretty much the three of us with a troubador following. I was second on the parser every time with the SK beating me out because he was mentored to my level, and the Paladin did an absolutely amazing job healing for a fighter class, and I'd beat out the troubador in the parse every time. In the end we took out the Acidic Mass and Fright to complete The Heart of Fear quest. It was the most intense and off the wall group I'd ever seen. So in the end I off tanked a bit when needed, Altruism saved us from a couple wipes and I was very pleased with my offensive numbers the whole time. There's no way I'd have had any chance of keeping up with the SK's taunts, and if I was trying to tank more than one target it just wouldn't have happened. But there were times where I'd pick aggro off one of our temporary healers or mages and the SK wouldn't be able to draw it off me if I started the battle and had my hate gain on.So it's situational. Monks are good at some things, tanking solo equal level targets we are fabulous and I think that's where our biggest strength really lies. I will be happy to DPS or to off-tank anytime. But if we want to be accepted as a tank, then we need to fight to make it happen because there are a lot of monks who they themselves don't think it can be done, maybe even a lot of us on this forums. Even myself. I'm sure Aedyl would surprise me with his effectiveness as a tank. Reminds me of a scene from Star Wars of course, Luke says to Yoda, "I... I don't believe it!" and Yoda replies, "And that is why you fail."What I'd like to see is Monks not bragging or being compared to Guardians or Shadowknights in regards to their tanking ability.  Either way ends up with someone being nerfed. If you find someone who doesn't think that you can keep up, then ask them to let you change their mind. If they say no, then they deserve whatever fate they end up with be it waiting longer for a group, or missing out on an opportunity to feign or dps or save the healer or mage because the MT is surrounded. I'd like to see those reasons why we aren't Guardians or Berserkers, and further what we can do to differentiate ourselves from them and make ourselves known as someone to be grouped with.

[Polyneikes]

I myself chose monk as my first character in EQ2, left it to try almost every other class as an alt (quite a few to the old maximum of 70) and have now finally come back to monk and am enjoying the class very much. In general I enjoy hybrid classes very much, and after lots of experience I feel most comfortable with the fighter hybrid class. I enjoy leading a group as a tank and the monk saves me needing an alt just for my tanking moods. I like doing quests and soloing, and although I had amazing success soloing with an illusionist, I prefer running through the world as a fighter class with high HP, great avoidance - and on the monk even FD! I also like being close to the mob in a fight, and the fighting animations are great. I also seem to have more power than I need (till now at least), and when I have a lazy day I can just tag along as a DPS - saves me having to create an extra DPS alt. So for me as an experienced player in <b>standard gaming situations</b>, the monk is fulfilling all my needs, and there is hardly a another class that has done so for me (conjuror maybe if you have friends that let you tank with pet cause they know you can). In normal pickup groups (yes I do them, and probably will have to till I am a few tiers up) I am the more reliable tank (experience), I ou t-DPS any other class by a factor of 2-3, and I have no problems soloing even-tier nameds. Now I can perfectly understand that this would dramatically change if I was in a hardcore endgame situation with every player in a group or a raid doing his absolute best. It is a no-brainer that a hybrid class will not excell in any of the specific roles, how could anyone justify that? If that is nonetheless bothering you, then you should really consider rolling one of the classes that are specifically made to fullfill whatever roll you feel your monk can't compete in. I have been there myself, tried a guardian bec ause I wanted a "real" tank, or a defiler because I felt too little appr eciation for my fury. But for my play-style (small guild, irregular and less-than ideal setups, pickup groups) I lost too much versatility to justify the  specialization of the single-roll classes, so after two years I have ended up on a monk again <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Fluffypaws]

Guys, im not nagging here and your probably gonna say no, but monks on pvp servers are ALWAYS needed for raids, and when u don't raid 100% of the time someone will want a monk, and plus the thrill of pvping itself (which monks are very good at) is more then enough to bring your confidence back. If you do decide to go pvp and you want to chat im normally on Fluffypaws (venekor good), Ookek(venekor good) or Clarg (venekor evil).

[Scews]

<p>I agree fluffy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> the fact of the matter is if you feel the monk class is "broke" it's probably "your" monk that is broke.  I'm a lvl 80 monk on venekor server (PvP/RP) and I can tank and dps just fine.  I tank all of the new zones almost everyday Maiden's, COA, Vaults of Eternal sleep, and Chelsith and often times am on top of the parse while doing so.  I have no raid gear but all legendary and a few fabled drops from the new zones.  Raid DPS wise if I'm with a dirge my parses will be up around 3k and I'm purely pvp spec'd.  I don't feel like writing out all my secrets but if you have any questions hit me up.</p><p> /flex</p><p>Ragefist </p>

[Wildfury77]

<p>I'm a 55 monk/88 AA on Nagafen.......so far have MTanked EVERY epic tier 3-6 with no objections from raid groups.......</p><p>As for group MT, i can usually get a group after one channel shout but usually get /tell hell from people spamming me to tank for them before i need to ask in 50-59 chat.</p><p>I'm hoping that all this "monks can't tank" rubbish on this thread is from people who would suck at any class they play rather than some massive upcoming dip as i enter tier 7!</p>