The way the Lockers intend to get around the upcoming change...

[Vydar2]

So, in channels today, the discussion was brought up that XP combat will be awarded for PvP kills, lockers everywhere cry about it...Then their general consensus?  We'll just take a high level character in group so that we won't get credit for any kills.  It just amazes me the lengths people will go to to stay at low tiers.  I don't understand.  I played a twink for... a week?  Then got bored and leveled it to 70. 

[Pravius]

Excuse my ignorance but really does it all come down to the only reason why they stay low level is so they can feel good about killing someone else with an advantage?

[novok]

<cite>Vydar2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, in channels today, the discussion was brought up that XP combat will be awarded for PvP kills, lockers everywhere cry about it...Then their general consensus?  We'll just take a high level character in group so that we won't get credit for any kills.  It just amazes me the lengths people will go to to stay at low tiers.  I don't understand.  I played a twink for... a week?  Then got bored and leveled it to 70.  </blockquote><p>That's just stupid, as with a high level character in group they won't be able to attack anyone out of range of that character</p><p>However, players that are within range of that high level WILL be able to attack them.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Vydar2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, in channels today, the discussion was brought up that XP combat will be awarded for PvP kills, lockers everywhere cry about it...Then their general consensus?  We'll just take a high level character in group so that we won't get credit for any kills.  It just amazes me the lengths people will go to to stay at low tiers.  I don't understand.  I played a twink for... a week?  Then got bored and leveled it to 70.  </blockquote>The easy way around that for the Devs is to make it so that the max PvP range for a Group is deturmined by the highest adventure lvl in the group. Meaning if your a lvl 25 and an Unmentored lvl80 is grouped with you, then that lvl 25 is attackable(for credit) by a lvl 80 toons. The other thing you do is give XP for PvP kills no matter what.

[novok]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>The easy way around that for the Devs is to make it so that the max PvP range for a Group is deturmined by the highest adventure lvl in the group. Meaning if your a lvl 25 and an Unmentored lvl80 is grouped with you, then that lvl 25 is attackable(for credit) by a lvl 80 toons. The other thing you do is give XP for PvP kills no matter what.</blockquote><p>It's already that way. If for instance, a level 14 and a level 15 are grouped in a 4 level range zone, neither of them can attack a level 10, although normally a level 10 would be attackable by the 14. Conversely, a level 19 can attack the level 14 because of the 15's presence, even though normally the 14 would be out of range.</p><p>Mentoring players cannot do anything at all in PvP for the most part.</p>

[Sammikkin]

I am really getting tired of being called a whiner and other bad things for wanting to level lock.  The problem in my perspective is that SOE has made it too easy in general to level.  I can get a char to 40 in 2 weeks or less of casual play.  Heck the casual players of my guild are mostly over halfway to 80 already.Why the rush to end game?  Half the quests go grey before you get a chance to do them since the exp gain is so quick now at low levels.  I am not alone on this, heck there's even a guild that the EQ2Daily crew joined and advertise called Slowburn.  Their whole focus is level-locking to ensure they get to enjoy content.Besides, I'm new to pvp and want to practice a bit in those low levels before jumping into higher tiers.  The reason I started PVP wasn't to gank people or twink.  It was to add a challenge that I find lacking in the PVE environment since the game has become so dang easy.  Seems like us level lockers are not the whiners.  Sure it sucks getting "ganked".  But heck, even the most inept player can pass those levels and get to the game they want.  Why do you have to force the rest of us to play like you do?Anyway, I'm not gonna yell "I quit" over this, but SOE should really think about their best interests in the long run.  How many players have they been losing?  Why are they losing them?  Maybe its because they get bored too quick.  Why can't I stay in whatever tier I enjoy the best for as long as I want?  I will still be paying.  If you force me to level, in 3-4 months I will be left with only end-game raiding.  IMO, that is BORING.  If you don't like my character that has been developed to the full potential at a given level, level up and we won't see each other.  Or better yet, quit complaining and get off your butt and get your character to the same point.Another idea... If there is a problem with developing your character to its full potential (i.e. thats too powerful),  limit it more.   Then you fix the real issue and don't rile everyone up nearly as much.Hope this makes sense to at least a few of you.Sammikkin (Mistmoore)Estephe (Naggy)

[ckl]

<cite>Sammikkin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am really getting tired of being called a whiner and other bad things for wanting to level lock.  The problem in my perspective is that SOE has made it too easy in general to level.  I can get a char to 40 in 2 weeks or less of casual play.  Heck the casual players of my guild are mostly over halfway to 80 already.Why the rush to end game?  Half the quests go grey before you get a chance to do them since the exp gain is so quick now at low levels.  I am not alone on this, heck there's even a guild that the EQ2Daily crew joined and advertise called Slowburn.  Their whole focus is level-locking to ensure they get to enjoy content.Besides, I'm new to pvp and want to practice a bit in those low levels before jumping into higher tiers.  The reason I started PVP wasn't to gank people or twink.  It was to add a challenge that I find lacking in the PVE environment since the game has become so dang easy.  Seems like us level lockers are not the whiners.  Sure it sucks getting "ganked".  But heck, even the most inept player can pass those levels and get to the game they want.  Why do you have to force the rest of us to play like you do?Anyway, I'm not gonna yell "I quit" over this, but SOE should really think about their best interests in the long run.  How many players have they been losing?  Why are they losing them?  Maybe its because they get bored too quick.  Why can't I stay in whatever tier I enjoy the best for as long as I want?  I will still be paying.  If you force me to level, in 3-4 months I will be left with only end-game raiding.  IMO, that is BORING.  If you don't like my character that has been developed to the full potential at a given level, level up and we won't see each other.  Or better yet, quit complaining and get off your butt and get your character to the same point.Another idea... If there is a problem with developing your character to its full potential (i.e. thats too powerful),  limit it more.   Then you fix the real issue and don't rile everyone up nearly as much.Hope this makes sense to at least a few of you.Sammikkin (Mistmoore)Estephe (Naggy)</blockquote>+1Nice fighting you earlier, Estephe. Sorry for the couple of emotes I threw at ya. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I'll also add that the way griefers will circumvent these changes is to continually reroll their characters to level 12 to use mastercrafted armor, until they get out of range of most new players. Sure, they'll have to harvest quite a bit more. Better change would be to figure out some way to carnage flag griefers, possibly allowing all sides to attack them, regardless of the person's level.

[Sammikkin]

Yeah, another good idea, Puissant!  And a good point.Look forward to seeing ya again on the battlefield <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Estephe

[Phage]

<cite>Lois@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>The easy way around that for the Devs is to make it so that the max PvP range for a Group is deturmined by the highest adventure lvl in the group. Meaning if your a lvl 25 and an Unmentored lvl80 is grouped with you, then that lvl 25 is attackable(for credit) by a lvl 80 toons. The other thing you do is give XP for PvP kills no matter what.</blockquote><p>It's already that way. If for instance, a level 14 and a level 15 are grouped in a 4 level range zone, neither of them can attack a level 10, although normally a level 10 would be attackable by the 14. Conversely, a level 19 can attack the level 14 because of the 15's presence, even though normally the 14 would be out of range.</p><p>Mentoring players cannot do anything at all in PvP for the most part.</p></blockquote><p>If a 14 and 15 are grouped in a 4 level range zone then the 14 would have to drop group to attack the 10.</p>

[Spyderbite]

<cite>Sammikkin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyway, I'm not gonna yell "I quit" over this, but SOE should really think about their best interests in the long run.  How many players have they been losing?  Why are they losing them?  Maybe its because they get bored too quick. </blockquote>Yah.. that must be it. *rolls eyes*There is survey on the way out if one actually closes their subscription. I doubt they received hundreds of surveys stating:"I had no problem with the endless gankings. It was actually sort of fun! It taught me to be patient and understand that even the simplest of tasks in life should take me hours upon hours."You people are really delusional. Seriously.

[tequiero]

<cite>Sammikkin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am really getting tired of being called a whiner and other bad things for wanting to level lock.  The problem in my perspective is that SOE has made it too easy in general to level.  I can get a char to 40 in 2 weeks or less of casual play.  Heck the casual players of my guild are mostly over halfway to 80 already.<span style="color: #cc0000;">Why the rush to end game?  Half the quests go grey before you get a chance to do them since the exp gain is so quick now at low levels.  I am not alone on this, heck there's even a guild that the EQ2Daily crew joined and advertise called Slowburn.  Their whole focus is level-locking to ensure they get to enjoy content.</span><span style="color: #333333;"><b><span style="color: #0000ff;">Besides, I'm new to pvp and want to practice a bit in those low levels before jumping into higher tiers.  The reason I started PVP wasn't to gank people or twink.  It was to add a challenge that I find lacking in the PVE environment since the game has become so dang easy.  </span></b></span>Seems like us level lockers are not the whiners.  Sure it sucks getting "ganked".  But heck, even the most inept player can pass those levels and get to the game they want.  Why do you have to force the rest of us to play like you do?Anyway, I'm not gonna yell "I quit" over this, but SOE should really think about their best interests in the long run.  How many players have they been losing?  Why are they losing them?  Maybe its because they get bored too quick.  Why can't I stay in whatever tier I enjoy the best for as long as I want?  I will still be paying.  If you force me to level, in 3-4 months I will be left with only end-game raiding.  IMO, that is BORING.  If you don't like my character that has been developed to the full potential at a given level, level up and we won't see each other.  Or better yet, quit complaining and get off your butt and get your character to the same point.Another idea... If there is a problem with developing your character to its full potential (i.e. thats too powerful),  limit it more.   Then you fix the real issue and don't rile everyone up nearly as much.Hope this makes sense to at least a few of you.Sammikkin (Mistmoore)Estephe (Naggy)</blockquote><p>If you  saying i dont want to lvl blah blah blah  they  quest are grey. First if you doing Quest and you are  lock  " YOU STILL GET EXP" regarless so that a stupid reason  to try to use to defend  the exp lock. no one is saying you gonna be lvl freakign 80 in 2 months just from  pvp exp  the exp will slow down   once you get higher lvl.</p><p> then againg you want to get some practice ( BS ) once you higher lvl classes changes   there wont be 2 button attack WOOT i win,  Good practice coems from lvling up and knowing the many many new attack debuff  that you from it. </p>

[Bozidar]

<p>I was thinking.. since we all get xp, the best bet would be to raid for pvp.</p><p>so i was going to go ahead and try to get an X4 every time i bring my low level twinks out, to split up the xp as much as possible.  That'll make for fun pvp, right?</p>

[ckl]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was thinking.. since we all get xp, the best bet would be to raid for pvp.</p><p>so i was going to go ahead and try to get an X4 every time i bring my low level twinks out, to split up the xp as much as possible.  That'll make for fun pvp, right?</p></blockquote><p>Shame you're on freeport side. Sounds like after about 10 kills my level 17 will be a [Removed for Content] in mid T3. Well, not really a [Removed for Content], because I'm going to have to spend a week or so doing nothing but harvesting rares and making armor, the exact thing I've done before and been bored to tears by.</p><p>3% xp for a PVP kill in tier 2 is just insane, especially without AA to go with it. Thanks!</p>

[Bloodfa]

<p>Good luck on getting a raid together for PvP, Boz.  Things might change with the new system coming.  Thundering Steppes may become (essentially) a PvP raid zone for all we know, depending on how things work out.</p><p>To the relative newcomer above (welcome to the game, by the way), don't listen to the "ZOMG!!!  We're going to have to raid in T7-T8!!!  Why does everybody want to raid, it's boring?!?!?!" doomsayers who've not hit that range yet.  There are about a dozen raid guilds in Nagafen.  Go check the Naggy Guild Raid Progression thread.  See how many are there.  The majority of guilds either don't have the manpower, the ability (ie. experienced raid leaders), or the desire to raid against NPC's.  I've got nothing against raiders, and have some solid ones in the family, but I'd rather be PvPing than raiding.  Also, please feel free to ignore the "all the scouts up there have several pieces of PvP gear, and plenty have full sets" commentary, as it's flat out wrong.  We want it, but those pieces cost a <u>lot</u> of tokens.  I know 1 guy who has 1 piece, and he's 80.  I've also seen full groups run from him as a solo, though ... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[ckl]

So is this update what the servers went down today for?

[Jacien]

If you're interested in staying locked, you have to sacrifice fame and faction. Plus, you will always need a partner.Simply form a raid with 1 other person. A duo raided up will avoid any gains, xp or otherwise.Happily PvP for eternity at whatever level you wish to stay at.

[retro_guy]

Ok, I'll conceed that I havn't read much of the thread and don't PVP, but if gaining XP for kills is the issue, why not simply kill yourself 50 times on purpose to work up plenty of XP debt then kill until that debt is just about used up and repeat?

[Novusod]

<cite>retro_guy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, I'll conceed that I havn't read much of the thread and don't PVP, but if gaining XP for kills is the issue, why not simply kill yourself 50 times on purpose to work up plenty of XP debt then kill until that debt is just about used up and repeat? </blockquote>The devs already had to remove xp debt from the pvp servers because people were doing just that. I remember when players would kill themselves on guards scores of times to max the debt.

[Tae]

<cite>Sammikkin wrote:</cite><blockquote> Their whole focus is level-locking to ensure they get to enjoy content.</blockquote>This argument is utterly utterly insane to me. What is there to enjoy at low levels that you don't get to see? I've done three characters through the lower levels of the game and all I've "missed out" on is Blackburrow, and only because I really have no interest in going there. If you're so desperate to do that fiftieth "Kill 20 fuzzles" quest then create a new character and do it that way. I refuse to believe that the people who've been level 22 for 30 days (and yes, these people exist) are locked there because there's still level 22 content they've missed out on somehow.

[Kulharr]

<p>The majority of players locked because.</p><p>a.) you can't get pvp rewards unless you level lock at any tier.  And with this change now newer characters cannot get pvp rewards at all.  The system was based on locking, you need 600+ kills just to get lvl 20 pvp rewards.  It's double that for level 60 rewards.  You NEEDED to lock to get rewarded for pvp.</p><p>b.) you don't gain AA from pvp combat and you need AA to compete, so people level locked for quests an AA's as well to better compete in pvp.</p><p> But yes some players just did it to gank newbies, I don't consider that the bulk of the pvp community.  most locked to take advantages of AA's and rewards.</p><p>All this change does is screw over those types of players and also other players who enjoy a balanced playstyle of pve and pvp... You gain a ridiculous ammount of experience for pvp kills... A lot of us requested faction rewards to be adjusted accordingly and the awared xp from pvp to very low, like 1 or 2% or aa experience as well to compinsate so we weren't handicapping ourselves by pvping... This was all ignored and pvp experience is almost 8x that.  In tier 3 I was getting 10% per kill.</p><p>All this essentially did was make the majority ov pvp move to the higher tiers... where the lower tiers consist of mostly PVE as players try and get a decent ammount of AA to compete and not get owned in the later tiers...</p><p>All around this was a bad move in my opinion and not very well thought out.  Many suggestions were given but SOE ignored all of them and forced an un-tested change onto the server without putting in any time or effort to balance it properly or address other aspects that would be affected by it.  I think it should be suspended and properly tested and adjusted on a test pvp server before applying such a controversial, un-tested and lazy, effortless change to the pvp server in the hopes to quell all the newbie pve players who were getting ganked in tier 1 and 2 .... Rather then taking the time to learn how to compete and just simply do the Kunark quests series "which gives you great gear to balance out the lowbie twinkers" or move beyond the gank tiers, they just whined and demanded a change...</p><p>Now it's the other side of the spectrum who is complaining, I'm on that side who is actually looking at the logic of the situation.  This was a flawed and un-tested change and it either needs to be removed or balanced/expanded.</p>

[Wood]

But you guys are killing the pvp server with the level locking.  I started up on Nagafen on the day it went live, leveled to 50, then had some RL stuff and stopped playing for a bit.  Me and a few guildies decided to start back playing again and rolled up some newbies.  Well, we got to the Commonlands and we got ganked.  Again and again.  By geared out twinks with who knows how many AA's.  We're all experienced pvper's starting all the way back with Ultima and AC1 Darktide, but we never had a chance and were so outgeared and outpowered we could barely even put up a fight.  It was completely unfun, so we bailed and rolled up on a PvE server just because we like the game so much.This is the same thing that's happened to everyone I know who has started up on Nagafen since level locking took off.  Level locking is running off new players, and as the server loses old players to whatever reason (like all servers do) the population gets lower and lower and lower until it just dies.If you want to keep the server alive with actual players, say goodbye to level locking.  I mean, you can still roll up twinks and gear them out, and you'll still probably slaughter new players in random junk gear, but at least you won't have 100 AA's and they'll have some small chance to fight back. That seems worth it to get new players on the server.  Unless you want to run around with your level locked twinks slaughtering hyenas and orcs on an empty server.

[Tae]

<cite>Kulharin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The majority of players locked because.</p><p>a.) you can't get pvp rewards unless you level lock at any tier.  And with this change now newer characters cannot get pvp rewards at all.  The system was based on locking, you need 600+ kills just to get lvl 20 pvp rewards.  It's double that for level 60 rewards.  You NEEDED to lock to get rewarded for pvp.</p><p>b.) you don't gain AA from pvp combat and you need AA to compete, so people level locked for quests an AA's as well to better compete in pvp. </p></blockquote>Then the majority of players are dumb and have no experience with the high tiers. The best PvP rewards come entirely from tokens, the faction gear is worthless - and between 70-80 there isn't any faction gear at all any longer. All those early rewards are pointless and locking at 20 so you can get the level 20 PvP armour then level out of the tier in a week is a huge waste of time and effort. And if you just quest and don't deliberately go out and grind mobs you'll have 100 achievement by the time you get to 70 without any problems at all. The reasons for level locking are no longer valid, and the tactic (as has been stated) is ruining the game. It also means that people are encouraged to gear themselves up ready for level 17, and once they've wasted all that time getting their level 17 geared up they no longer want to level out of it, meaning 90% of new players that <i>do</i> stick around end up becoming part of the problem themselves.

[burny4]

<p>The name of the game in progression.  You discover a new land, you progress. You complete a quest, you progress. You kill something, you PROGRESS. The object of the game is not to progress until you decide you dont want to anymore. </p><p>Now it may just be ignorance on my part, but if youre locking your toon at lvl 22 to enjoy the quests, you really need to be on a PVE server anyway.</p>

[MaCloud1032]

<cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're interested in staying locked, you have to sacrifice fame and faction. Plus, you will always need a partner.Simply form a raid with 1 other person. A duo raided up will avoid any gains, xp or otherwise.Happily PvP for eternity at whatever level you wish to stay at.</blockquote>The only way to show as a raid is to have 7 people in the zone at one time.  You cant put 4 diffrent people in 4 diff groups and call it a raid.  That duo that you are so proud of is still considered 1 group you just dont have each others buffs anymore

[Elephanton]

<cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simply form a raid with 1 other person.</blockquote>Ooops, you cannot do this... sorry