Hands VS Weapons?!?!?!?

[Malfuri]

<p>I have question are hands better than weapons? My hands are 210-334 dmg with a 2.2 dly and I get a 99% double attack rating when I use empty hands. When I equip a weapon I lose the 99% chance to double attack and my dmg goes down. I cant figure out why high end bruisers us weapons?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Mercy....if the damage is the same for my barefists then I will be respecting back to the strength line. That is just awesome damage and doing 99% double attack is insain. Also what kind of damage numbers are you putting up from auto attack. On occasion I see auto attack hits on my bruiser (crits) at 1320, but for the most part it is in the 430's to 600's on auto attack. I am using weapon that are 75-102 primary damage and 90-204 secondary.</p><p>I just hate to loose the stats, but if the damage is there to compensate I will respect in a heart beat. Oh my strength is usually at 650 solo, if that means anything. Thanks</p>

[Malfuri]

<p>IMO>>Yeah it seems that using weapons now hiders you as far as DSP is concerned.</p>

[Aull]

<p>My cousin just informed me that his lvl73 monk is now at 100% double attack and says he will probably not ever use weapons. With all that haste and double attacking at 100% I can see why he is choosing not to use them. He says the damage is just so crazy that he can't see using any other fighting style. So I am figuring that I surely can't hurt to try out the strgth line once more. The only reason I quit using it was I got a fabled weapon, and thought I would try out the wisdom line, but I think the wisdom line is cool, but I am missing the double attack.</p><p>So if ever in a great group setup, with decent haste and dps mods, and our hard hitting ca's I can't imagine what the damage would be like.</p>

[Malfuri]

<p>A great group and speed buff we are going to own on dps. Throw a nice Dev Fist in there and dsp is going to be outrageous . Chi is really great to have too raises my haste to about 60+.  And i only have one item to raise haste. Need CoF(Cloak of Flames) and i am sure it will be close to 100.</p><p> i bet it will be nerfed <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Junaru]

100% double attack has it's downside just as having all the haste Monks have is. The problem is you don't get any benefit from raid/group buffs that will raid you double attack because you are MAXED. As for STR line, I asked this very question on the Monk forums and for the time being I may revisit the STR line.

[Malfuri]

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>100% double attack has it's downside just as having all the haste Monks have is. The problem is you don't get any benefit from raid/group buffs that will raid you double attack because you are MAXED. As for STR line, I asked this very question on the Monk forums and for the time being I may revisit the STR line. </blockquote><p>IMO having 100% DA and haste is good thing if soloin or grouped.......Mybe it will stack now and you can have over 100 lol j/k</p>

[Kaycerzan]

Call me crazy but I'm not seeing it.Granted my unarmed STR is only 468, but seriously... Unarmed:  Str: 468  Pri : 162 - 271 / 2.0  Sec : 162 - 271 / 2.0 Armed: (Razor Gauntlet, Lucanic Kama)  Str : 523  Pri : 98 - 557 / 2.6  Sec : 133 - 400 / 2.6There's gotta be some jumping point where STR kicks in higher than these T7 items to get to what ya'll are talking about... but I'm just not seeing it.

[Malfuri]

My Str is close to 600. I am 71

[Splor]

Weapons win because of 2 reasons.1) getting a decent weapon with a proc, and then adding an adornment = awesome(i'd recommend using the phantom handle on one at least)2) Get some decent groupies and you can get your DA pretty high up there without even trying. Also, attempt to get get some higher delay weapons so that you can really get the full affect of haste/attack speed mods and you'll auto attack outrageous.using my old combo of Wurmslayer/SoD, i would auto attack for about 1200-1400 with each weapon. its gets to be pretty hot.

[PaganSaint]

Here is the real question that no one asked.What weapons were you using to get better damage out of bare fists instead?Because like you can see with the SoD/Razor Gauntlets, its not going to happen with even using T7 high quality weapons.EDIT Reason: Typos

[urgatorbait]

<p>Lately, I've been struggling with the quandry of whether to stick with weapons or go bare-fisted myself.  Now I am not a numbers kind of guy so I don't parse my battles or anything like that so I have not looked at it from that perspective.  Having said that, I still would like to have a reasonable comfort level that whichever way I choose is best for my play style (solo 90-95% of the time).</p><p>Currently, I am equiping in Primary slot The Twin Calamities (the god's were shining on me the day I won that) which are 90-270 1.6 delay.  In Secondary I have Mouthmusher (RoK Legendary) 105-244 1.6 delay.</p><p>Right now when I solo I am at 521 strength, 8271 HPs at level 74.  My haste through gear is  27.  I currently have mostly Tier 7 Mastercrafted armor (the set with STR, STA and AGI) with only a few pieces of Legendary.  I hope to upgrade to the tier 8 MC as soon as the next GU hits when all MC will be getting a decent boost.  That should bump my strength up a little bit from where it is now.</p><p>As of now, I am spec'd INT 44881 WIS 44781 Plus a number of the class AAs as well.  I'm currently at 102 AAs. Now that the cap has gone to 70 in each tree, I am trying to figure out which additional tree to go down in the Brawler line.  The STA and AGI lines don't seem to excite me and while the STR one certainly does I would have to forsake my weapons to use it.</p><p>As I read this post, I see people posting what their auto attack damage numbers are and I don't seem to currently see anything even remotely close to that.  Upon casually looking at MY numbers my hits seem to be in the neighborhood of 200-250-ish at best.  I don't see how folks are getting regular non-crits of 400-600 without going 2H.  Is my strength THAT subpar?  Does having another 100 points or so of STR make that much of a difference?</p><p>What I am thinking about doing is respecing to INT 44861, WIS 44681, STR 44861.</p><p>Now I figure I will loose several hundred HPs if I give up my weapons and I will also miss out on the debuff proc on the TC and the stun proc on the Mouthmusher.  Also will miss out on the adornments I could put on them as well although I currently have no adornments and don't plan to get into that until I am 80 and have whatever the best gear is that I'm likely to have.  I suppose I should just respec and see what happens knowing I could always just respec back if I'm not satified but I'm wondering what opinions might be out there regarding my situation.  Thanks in advance.</p>

[Rayche]

I just went from fists to weapon spec with Twin Calamaties and Dragon rib club (Both fabled) and I've been getting OWNED trying to get my weapon skills up. I was thinking it was because my piercing sucked (Only up to 300/380 now at 71).So you guys think the bare fist build is still better? I'd love to switch back and not get my [Removed for Content] kicked.

[Aull]

<p>Ok took the strgth line just to see how it would play out at lvl 74. I must say that I am very pleased. Here is my setup for aa. 4,4,8,8, & 1 strgth; 4,4,&8 agil; and 4,4,8,8, &1 intel. With this setup my stats are strgth 633, agil 576, and stam 382. Double attack is 99% with earrings giving 1% and 2% to double attack or it would be 96%. Avoidance is at 9590 offensive stance, melee crit is 21%, haste 26, dps mod 20, and a damage rating of 221-368 and 1.9 delay on the barefists.</p><p>I am currently useing these weapons. Primary is pristine imbued incarnadine pitchatka +65 strgth and 45 agil, damage 222-666 with 4.1 delay, procs 270-501. Secondary is pristine imbued incarnadine battle claws, + 35 to strgth, agil and stam, damage 111-333 with 2.1 delay, and procs 270-501 and adorment 282 damage. With the weapons in slots I loose all but 3% double attack and 0 dps mod. Stats are strgth 743, agil 656, and stam 417. Avoidance falls to 9401 with weapons offensive stance, and melee crits are the same 21%. Haste is still 26% also.</p><p>Now just running around killing bloodknights, hunters and enthrallers in Kylong plains solo and always in offensive stance I noticed that the barefists just flat out ruled for what I was doing. The repostie from the strgth line helped me big time. Once I equiped the weapons it did take me longer to get the mobs down even with the better stats of strgth, agil, and stam and I took more damage having to heal myself while fighting one on one. Barefisted I could take on two of these mobs I mentioned at once and maybe heal myself occasionally. I also used my combat arts while fighting these mobs so the crits did vary from fight to fight.</p><p>My average hits barefisted was anywhere from 230 lowend to 800 + on highend with crits and I witnessed more damage numbers while fighting barefisted. My average hit with the weapons was slightly higher 250 lowend to 934 on highend with crits and not near as much damage numbers due to the loss of double attack.</p><p>The bare fists also made my survivablity go up and that has impressed me more than anything! Now I must say that this is what I am experiencing useing the strgth line aa's and I am really liking how my solo game is playing out as of now. I do plan on keeping this set up for a good while. This test is still under going and hope that it stays this awesome.</p><p>Please take note this is just what I am experiencing useing this setup and I would advise if anyone is interested just to try it out and see what happens. Thanks for you time.</p>

[silentpsycho]

well, i don't have T7 fableds to compare with, but my parses show unarmed with str (and esp chi, omg i love chi) is far supeiror to t8 mastercrafted and adorned weapons; by at least 30%.  and this is trading my wis/int/agi spec for str 44862, agi 448, int 4482 (so far).

[Aull]

Just wanted to say that my aa set up was 4,4, & agil, 4,4,8,8, end wis, and 4,4,8,8,& end intel before I reset my aa's. Yes I too do not have the great fabled weapons that some of the bruisers have and I am sure that would play a huge role. However once I first reset the aa's to the strgth line I thought that loosing the hps would hurt, but as far as I can tell loosing the approx 400hps is nothing incomparison to what I am experiencing now. Just glad that I came along and read this here in the forums and started a little fire to see how it would play out for me. Again so far I am enjoying it very much and I cannot express how much this change has help me!

[Rayche]

Trying it now, will post results.It'll be easy to tell even without a parse, I've been getting owned so far, so anything above.. well, getting owned is an improvement.*Edit*Here's the spec I switched to:STR: 4, 4, 8, 6, 1INT: 4, 4, 8, 6, 1I had 50 in the KoS tree at first, but have 49 now atm, but took 1 point and bought Retribution of Stone to see how that works out. Only 90 AA's so far.Just ran out at the entrance of Fens and killed a few Rhinos and Sarnak.Holy mother of god... I demolished them.So Twin Calamaties and Dragon Rib Club (T7 fabled) are < Bare fists.

[urgatorbait]

Aull, thanks so much for your detailed reply outlining your experiences between weapons and unarmed.  I plan to switch tonight if I get the time to play and will post my findings as well.  I encourage anyone esle who decides to switch to let us know how it goes.  Posting the details like Aull did (your haste, strength, dps mod, etc.) will help us get a rough comparison to our own situations.  Thanks again.

[Aull]

<p>I thought that loosing all the strgth and agility from the weapons was going to curse me but as I have found out that is not the case for everyday norrath runs. The only thing that I cannont comment on is how this setup will be in the raid zones against epic mobs. I am just flat out impressed to say the least and I really can't describe how my solo game has increased! This is a great move for me and so glad that I did it.</p><p>I was in the ascent of the awakened the other night with this setup, and for the life of me I cannot remember the group set up, but my double attack said it was 122%!!! Now that is crazy and I can't see how being better than 100% is gonna help, but I was putting up nice numbers. Just one thing make sure you have your rumble combart off if you are not tanking as this will pull aggro from the mt very quick! And on a named mob using chi with knock out combo is soooooo nice, you must try that, just don't pop it off the get go or you will have the aggro if you are not the main tank. Just let the mt generate some aggro and once they say kick up the dps fire off chi and then knockout combo (make sure your ca's are all refreshed before you do this) and then go hog <a href="mailto:!@#$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">!@#$</a> wild on the mob. This may get aggro quick so make sure the mob's hp is down considerably before this is done and you will be see number that are amazing.</p><p>Thanks everyone and hope that if you try this set up you are pleased. I know I am so far and can't believe that I have been missing this since the +70 aa to the kos tree came out.</p>

[Malfuri]

<p>When I throw up Chi and Knockout combination, I feel like Neo in the Matrix. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Splor]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So Twin Calamaties and Dragon Rib Club (T7 fabled) are < Bare fists </blockquote>1.6 second delay weapons = crap :/By myself, 667 StrDeklium Battering Cudgel(very easy to get) 4.0 second delay 275-1100Soulfire Kama 2.5 sec delay(really east to get now, just takes times) 216-647If you go to the bruiser forum on eq2flames i posted a parse screenshot of me tanking CoA. As tank I was also top dps. I also had several spikes of DPS over 5500, and that was without using Devastaion fist. On one battle I came very close to 7k(with devastation fist). I'm wearing quest/instance gear, so no, im not some uber leet avatar dressed bruiser, just a casual one.

[Aull]

<p>Mercy!!! Where does a player obtain this Deklium Battering Cudgel? That is awesome damage my friend and I would like to see how that would work as well. I know there has to be a point at which the barefists loose out to weapons, especially in a group that gives haste, dps mods, and double attack. For the most part I am soloing a great deal and as of now the 99% double attack has helped me and the 5% repostie from the strgth line. I thought the pristine imbued incarnadine pitchatka with 22-666 damage and 4.1 delay would rock and it does to a point but not while I am solo.</p><p>I mentioned that my cousins monk is at 100% double attack and it is everything I can do to hold aggro off him and he has his rage line combat art canceled so he isn't generating more hate with each swing. Very awesome to witness to say the least. I know that I have crited with my pitchatka for around 1320 but that was only once that I seen that damage. I know the damage barefisted isn't at the rating that the pitchatka has but the double attack does help make up for that some.</p><p>All in all this is just an experiment that I am playing with and I am really liking the barefists for what I am doing.</p><p>I am seeing damage like this barefisted solo and in offensive stance. </p><p>                          320                                               412</p><p>                                         <span style="font-size: x-large;">660 </span><span style="font-size: x-small;">                          504</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">                     202       </span><span style="font-size: x-large;">550      194      </span><span style="font-size: x-small;">497</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">That is a similar example of what I see above the mobs while barefists and it happens at a faster pace then when I am equiped with weapons. I also understand that some of the damage comes from the procs from offensive stance and my rumble combat art and any repostie damage. That doesn't include me using my combat arts like pressure point, one hundred hands, eye pluck.....ect. When I do that it gets even more numbers of course. I just hope that as I lvl to 80 the barefists damage will increase. Anyway gotta go. I hope to hear more from you brothers!!! Enjoy!</span></p>

[Rayche]

Where'd you get those figures for Deklium Battering Cudgel?I looked it up here: <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1123671091" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1123671091</a>and it shows a damage rating of 70-278. Nice DPS on it, but are you saying that's what you get when you do a /weaponstat?So at 79 I should see about switching maybe.

[Splor]

when i type /weapon that is indeed the stats given to me.the deklium battering cudgel drops off of named inside sebilis, and is fairly common. they sell for pretty cheap on my server(butcherblock) usually.

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Malfurion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When I throw up Chi and Knockout combination, I feel like Neo in the Matrix. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>OMG this is so true!  "I know kung fu"  "show me"!!!  good times

[urgatorbait]

<p>Ok, so last night I respec'd to STR.  I decided to go down the INT, STR and AGI (from INT and WIS).  During the process, however, I got to a point where I have 9 points left to spend in that tree and am not sure where they would best be placed.  I was wondering what some of your opinions might be.  Currently, I have 61 point spent in the following:</p><p><b><u>Strength Tree 4/4/8/6/2</u></b>+STR (4 points)Damage Art, Mit Debuff (4 points)Double Attack, +DPS (8 points)+Riposte (6 points)Chi (2 points)</p><p><b><u>Intelligence Tree 4/4/8/6/2</u></b>+INT (4 points)Damage Art, Exposes Mob's Back (4 points)+Crit Chance (8 points)+Parry (6 points)Eagle's Shriek (2 points)</p><p><b><u>Agility Tree 4/4/4</u></b>+AGI (4 points)Damage Art, Recast Time Buff/Debuff (4 points)Recast Timer Reduction (4 points)</p><p>So I have 9 points left that I can spend in this tree (I have more AA's for the Bruiser tree so I've got that covered).  I am trying to get a feel for which of the following abilities would provide the most benefit.  I solo about 95% of the time, never tank (except when solo) and am wearing mostly Mastercrafted armor and quested jewelry.  The choices are:</p><p>1. Putting 2 more points in +Riposte2. Putting 2 more points in +Parry3. Putting up to 8 points in +Defense4. Putting 4 more points in Damage Art/Recast Timer Buff/Debuff (Baton Flurry)5. Putting 4 more points in the permanent recast timer reduction (Ambidexterity)</p><p>What I am trying to get a feel for is from a damage avoidance perspective, which would provide the most benefit: +Parry, +Defense, or +Riposte?  Or, does the benefit of either of the recast timer abilities provide a better option and, if so, which one?  Bottom line, if you were in my shoes where would you put your points and why?  Thanks in advance.</p><p>One thing I was thinking about is about maximizing my potential for when I get Retribution of Stone in the Bruiser tree.  That gives a 25% to absorb an attack with every riposte.  And since we know ripostes are based off of parries would it make sense to max out my potentialk there?  Just something to think about.</p><p>Oh and by the way, so far after giving up my Fabled/Legendary weapon combo and going bare-fisted I am seeing higher damage per hit, landing more hits and swinging more often.  So far I'm pleased with the results.  I plan to re-evaluate the complete change to my solo game once I reallocate ALL my AA points.</p>

[Splor]

The + ripostle is the most powerful stat in the STR tree, max it out.the wis tree however is far better then agi. the small % you get to reuse timers doesnt even get close to the damage crane twirl does on multiple target encounters. Crane sweep also helps in one of the departments that bruisers are lacking, aoe force(not to mention it stuns)This is what i use, but If i were to spec for STR i'd show you how i'd place my points as well4-7-8 AGI4-5-8-8-2 WIS4-4-8-7 INTIf i were to spec to STRI'd be 4-8-8-8-2 STR4-4-8 INT4-4-8 WISand with the 8 points left over you can choose either to finish INT or finish WIS. If your looking to tank, WIS > INT for aggro control(yeah, you have the double attack already, but if theres multiple mobs, you start hitting them all, not to mention crane flock will proc almost ever single hit). The INT > Wisdom for soloing because you can let your life run down and then flatten mobs without even trying.In groups, though you sometimes will drop into the 30% mark, its not for long in this expansion. Mobs can and will hit for over 12k damage in these new instances, and if you get low on life, they will simply 1 shot you. Keeping you life at max is key to keep spikes from killing you, and as such i would no recommend running yourself down on life purposefully for the crits if that is what interests you. Its your choice though.

[Kaycerzan]

At some point this thread has strayed from a "barefist = more damage than weapons" topic back into an AA build topic.We have enough AA build topic threads already.I'm still waiting for some hard numbers that show better damage coming from bare fist than some of the higher tier weapons, damage that isn't based off of "it feels like" or based off of combining Chi with something. Go into the game, type /weapon, and feedback the damage spread it's reporting.

[Malfuri]

<cite>Estovia@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>At some point this thread has strayed from a "barefist = more damage than weapons" topic back into an AA build topic.We have enough AA build topic threads already.I'm still waiting for some hard numbers that show better damage coming from bare fist than some of the higher tier weapons, damage that isn't based off of "it feels like" or based off of combining Chi with something. Go into the game, type /weapon, and feedback the damage spread it's reporting. </blockquote>AA's are part this. Try it out for your self and see the diffrence. I am sure you can draw a conclusion on your own.

[Aull]

<p>This was a situation where I wanted to know for myself "Hands Vs Weapons" and which will be the most beneficial to my play style. So I just logged in the game and reset my aa's and took off to kylong plains/fens and started soloing. Impressed is just to small of a word to describe what this barefisted set up is doing for my solo game.</p><p>As for the actual numbers for the damage of the fists and weapons I listed what mine are rated at in an earlier post. This has been an awesome move for me and I hope that it will take me to 80. I also understand that at some point weapons must supercede the barefists. However I just flat enjoy having 99% double attack and I hope to get that to 100% like my cousins monk if I can.</p><p>What I still find so great is that in offensive stance my avoidance is like 10032 barefisted and I have repostie. With my weapons "listed on one of my earlier posts" my avoidance drops to 9902 and I loose repostie. Since that post was made my agility has gone up about 40 points so my avoidance is higher that before. If I use an agility potion it just gets better.</p><p>Fantastic move for me to say the least. I just wanted to know for myself how this set up would work for me and not base it from what others say. I will reset in a heartbeat if this set up becomes a hinderance to my play style. I would just suggest to try it out and if a person doesn't like it...... the wonderful thing is....it can all be reset. Thanks all. </p>

[Splor]

<cite>Estovia@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>At some point this thread has strayed from a "barefist = more damage than weapons" topic back into an AA build topic.We have enough AA build topic threads already.I'm still waiting for some hard numbers that show better damage coming from bare fist than some of the higher tier weapons, damage that isn't based off of "it feels like" or based off of combining Chi with something. Go into the game, type /weapon, and feedback the damage spread it's reporting. </blockquote>As someone else said, you cants seperate going barefist from weapons without talking about AA's because AA's simply affect things across the board. I made the suggestion i did so that others could test it out. I personally cant because I've tested so many AA's lately i dont feel like spending 10p to get a respec right now. I posted up the numbers i have as well so that people can compare, but those numbers really mean very little if that is all you go by. There are Procs, reuse timers, attacks, and other stats that will affect other forms of performance, and you have to give up some of them to go the STR line. Its not Base damage vs Base damage, the title of the post is Hands VS Weapons?!?!?!?

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This was a situation where I wanted to know for myself "Hands Vs Weapons" and which will be the most beneficial to my play style. So I just logged in the game and reset my aa's and took off to kylong plains/fens and started soloing. Impressed is just to small of a word to describe what this barefisted set up is doing for my solo game.</p><p>As for the actual numbers for the damage of the fists and weapons I listed what mine are rated at in an earlier post. This has been an awesome move for me and I hope that it will take me to 80. I also understand that at some point weapons must supercede the barefists. However I just flat enjoy having 99% double attack and I hope to get that to 100% like my cousins monk if I can.</p><p>What I still find so great is that in offensive stance my avoidance is like 10032 barefisted and I have repostie. With my weapons "listed on one of my earlier posts" my avoidance drops to 9902 and I loose repostie. Since that post was made my agility has gone up about 40 points so my avoidance is higher that before. If I use an agility potion it just gets better.</p><p>Fantastic move for me to say the least. I just wanted to know for myself how this set up would work for me and not base it from what others say. I will reset in a heartbeat if this set up becomes a hinderance to my play style. I would just suggest to try it out and if a person doesn't like it...... the wonderful thing is....it can all be reset. Thanks all. </p></blockquote><p>QFE - my experience with barefisted is the same.  You can't ignore AA setup, because, frankly, the benefits of barefisted-STR aa line is what makes it so desirable.  The +riposte/parry, the double attack, and, yes, chi are all part of what make fighting unarmed so awesome.</p><p>I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I've been parsing *a lot* higher and tanking much better with my STR/INT/AGI build than I ever did WIS/INT/AGI or WIS/INT/STA.  Some people must have had better luck with WIS than I ever did; crane twirl/flock/twirl never accounted for more than 5% of my total zone wide dps.  Whereas improved melee damage and faster CA's, while they don't show as simple point-to-it number in ACT, raises my entire zw parse much more significantly overall (like 100%-150% over what I was getting with the WIS based build).</p>

[smokedout]

go get some T8 legendary+ weps, or T7 fabled.. and say good bye too the Str line, really isnt worth it if you can get either of those weps...

[Meilay]

<p>Yet another satisfied customer with the "Bare Fists" approach.  I had been using two weapons for 75 levels and after reading this post I tried the bare handed + STR Line combo.  I was impressed to say the least, my first victim was a solo name, one I had killed many times before, and I think it was "Black Lotus" or something from the Jungle area.  Anyway the last time I faced him the fight took 30 secs or so, this time I fired K/O combo + Chi and he died inside of 6 secs or so.  At first I thought "Lag bubble?" then I went toe to toe with some other mobs in the area and same net effect.  I never had top tier fabled weapons, legendary at best T7, so this is an incredible enhancement to my DPS and survivability.  I did have some heartache over loss of stats, but when you are well over 700 STR and AGI (solo buff) whats the 60 points or so I lost on those abilities anyway.  </p><p> I agree AA is crucial to this discussion as the 98% DBL ATTK makes worlds of difference as does the rest of the STR line.  ROK has at a few items that raise that % by a few points as well as haste mods.</p><p> I don't know that I added anything not previously stated, but at least a THANKS for beggining this thread, as it improved my gaming experience!</p>

[Aull]

<p>Yeah no kidding around I am so glad that I read this thread and chose to try this out! Really like how much better I solo and in a group setting I do even better with the proper support classes being in the group. This has changed my whole outlook on my bruiser and I feel like a kid with a new toy. Just wait until you can get in a group that can buff the dps mod and a little haste. Oh soooooo nice.</p><p>As of now I am relearning some group situations in the aggro dept when I am not the mt. I am finding that I must really hold back alittle as not to rip the aggro off the mt to soon and that is with rumble turned off and not using knockout combo. I have been getting tells from the leader of our guild and a couple other lvl 80 toons to join them in some instance groups in the the crypt inside Sebilis after a wonderful run we made about three nights ago. I must admit and I am not bragging but the ole bruiser was doing some bruisin that night, and fortunately I got my lvl 78 knockout masters WOOT! All I need to do now is make four more lvls so I can use it.</p><p>Again I am so glad that I done this and it has totally made me enthusiastic about playing this toon. I hope everyone who is trying this is seeing the results that I have. My only concern will be once the guild starts raiding after the holidays how this will workout. Later all!</p>

[Owa]

<span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;">Sorry to re-hash this again but....I just re-upped and wanted to ask you lads whether my Twin Calamities will be better for the trudge from 70-80 than respeccing STR. I used to fight barehanded all the time back in the day and the idea of ditching the weapons makes me feel all nostalgic.</span>

[Aull]

<p>Well Owain all I can say is the strgth line has really helped my solo game (also group) and is really working great for me at this point. There are many opinions on this saying weapons with adorns and procs will out shine the barefisted style that I just had to find out for myself. I was using the pristine imbued incarnadine battle claw and the other was pristine imbued incarnadine pitkicha and was 4,4,&8 agil; 4,4,8,8,and end wis, and 4,4,8,8, and end intel using the weapons.</p><p>After reading this original post I thought that I would try out the strgth line once more and I am glad that I did. Strgth is 4,4,8,8, and end ability; 4,4,&8 agil; and 4,4,8,8, and end for int line. This is by far my best move for my solo game on everyday content and my grouping in everyday content is fabulous. strgth is 690, agil is 620, stam 345, and my avoidance in offensive stance is 10487 or close to that number.</p><p>My strgth and agil are close to 100 points higher with weapons but my avoidance will fall from 10487 to 10198 once I equip my weapons and I loose the repostie and my 99% chance to double attack. I can't truely put any evidence that will show that the dps has gone up or down barefisted, but I know that I am tougher and I see myself going through more mobs and less self heals while solo which is 85% of my game with my bruiser. Hehe sorry but I do not have the inteligence computer wise to make posts of my parses and I hope that one of the computer guru's can experiment with that and make posts of it. </p><p>All of my armor is mastercrafted lvl 72 lether and jewlery is quested items nothing to brag about. Anyway I do know that weapons at some point have to win over the strgth line or there wouldn't be so many bruisers that are using them. This is all an experiment for me and so far I am enjoying it. </p><p>There is another thread that speaks of making the strgth line work with weapons with a lesser percent of double attack and I would be all for it as long as it was logical. I think that would be appropriate if that could be implemented into the game. As of now all weapon restrictions have been removed for aa setups (if I am wrong plz correct) except for the brawlers strgth aa line. Anyways that is an entire thread of its own, but I really support it to allow the use of weapons with the strgth line. Later on.</p>

[Splor]

<cite>Owain wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;">Sorry to re-hash this again but....I just re-upped and wanted to ask you lads whether my Twin Calamities will be better for the trudge from 70-80 than respeccing STR. I used to fight barehanded all the time back in the day and the idea of ditching the weapons makes me feel all nostalgic.</span></blockquote>Talking directly to you the twin calamities are practically worthless now. They put out so little dps its sad. As i've already posted all over the place and probably already in this thread, get a hold of some decent 4.0 delay weapons, regardless if its the  MC or something like the Deklium Battering Cudgel. I also saw your a PvP person. I'd imagine you might like the debuff and CHI in str, but focusing on your warp attack(with the crit) + crits + your choice would make things probably put out more and be more competitive imo.