Re: Dec 06 Test Notes - Leave Brawler FD Alone. [Archive]

EQ2Luv

12-07-2007, 02:58 AM

<cite>Ekaunek@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's called UI consistency. Just about all other maintained effects can be canceled by pressing the activation button again. I play a necromancer and I am not bothered by this in the least.</blockquote>Most of the maintained spells you refer to have a non-zero casting time. Since FD is immediate, it will be far too susceptible to the accidental double click. Moreover, the motivation for the change is based on a faulty premise. You don't currently have to right click cancel to undo FD. You can press X to stand up. We don't need another way to stand up that will also cause us to die accidentally from hotkey lag. In case it isn't clear, I too am against this change. It will make FD much less usable--not make it more usable like UI "improvements' usually should.

Eriol

12-07-2007, 03:03 AM

<cite>TheSummoned wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am totally against this, and the accidentally canceling it cause of double click doesn't even bother me! The recast atm starts when you hit the button. Making it toggleable means the recast won't start UNTIL you cancel it just like with every other toggleable spell, which is the worst thing in this change. </blockquote>This concerns me even more than the double-click. GREAT catch.Can somebody on test confirm the behavior either way?

ke'la

12-07-2007, 03:16 AM

I don't understand the NEED to spam FD.If your stuned you hit FD ONCE and it becomes a Qued Action and the second the stun goes away you FD, so its accually FASTER to NOT spam FD because spaming it Takes it in and out of being qued, and therefor it won't go into effect until the first time you click it after the stun wears off. As for lag making you beleave you didn't hit it, well again it's client side that will show that it is qued. As to the Timer not counting down until you unclick it, while this does slow down the recharge of our group FD, I don't see how a 10sec recast is so long that you would need to wait for it to recharge befor un-FDing. So I really think this is a major "Sky is Falling" post.That said I can't see the POINT of this change either, is it to make it easier for people who are FD to end it? If so it does nothing of the sort as it is just as easy to press the stand hotkey, plus it does nothing for people who are FDed by others, via group FD or the Nercro/SK FD spell. So if that is the point of the change then it is a bad change, not because of some "sky is falling" improbable what if senario that can be over come with a minor change in playstyle. Its a bad change because not only is it Unnessicary but it also does not occomplish the goal, and making unnessicary changes to complex code is a very bad thing. Now if I am wrong in the reasoning behind this change please some Dev correct me and we can then decuess the merits of the change based on thier reason for it.

TheSummoned

12-07-2007, 03:30 AM

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't understand the NEED to spam FD.If your stuned you hit FD ONCE and it becomes a Qued Action and the second the stun goes away you FD, so its accually FASTER to NOT spam FD because spaming it Takes it in and out of being qued, and therefor it won't go into effect until the first time you click it after the stun wears off. As for lag making you beleave you didn't hit it, well again it's client side that will show that it is qued. As to the Timer not counting down until you unclick it, while this does slow down the recharge of our group FD, I don't see how a 10sec recast is so long that you would need to wait for it to recharge befor un-FDing. So I really think this is a major "Sky is Falling" post.That said I can't see the POINT of this change either, is it to make it easier for people who are FD to end it? If so it does nothing of the sort as it is just as easy to press the stand hotkey, plus it does nothing for people who are FDed by others, via group FD or the Nercro/SK FD spell. So if that is the point of the change then it is a bad change, not because of some "sky is falling" improbable what if senario that can be over come with a minor change in playstyle. Its a bad change because not only is it Unnessicary but it also does not occomplish the goal, and making unnessicary changes to complex code is a very bad thing. Now if I am wrong in the reasoning behind this change please some Dev correct me and we can then decuess the merits of the change based on thier reason for it.</blockquote>I've used the wait 10 seconds for the next FD a whole lot, and it is actually very useful. Just because you can't think of a situation where it might get used doesn't mean it won't be used.

Dyse

12-07-2007, 05:54 AM

As a Necro with a LONG wait to recast incase of a Double panic click, I am against this all the way. LEAVE IT ALONE. If you just have to change it because the LU41 list is too short and just have to stick something off the wall in there ... which you shouldn't ... Make it have a Reclick timer of say... 10 seconds. But if we sit/stand it will break as usual. And a very good point 2 posts up about 'what about the people who were feign death'd by another person?' where's their unfiegn button. We've played 3 years now and it's not rocket science to stand/sit to break it. Quit jacking with stuff that works and probably... oh... change up FrostFell so us 4 year vets will have something to actually go back in there with. Orrrrr... Make LoN messages only visible to people who actually play it... orrrrrr make a Check box in Chat options to Disable that spam. (Next there will be google ads ingame when you open the Broker)

Cusashorn

12-07-2007, 09:27 AM

LEAVE FEIGN DEATH ALONE!Everyone knows how the developers have been slowly but surely making the game easier for everyone over the past 3 years.How is changing Feign Death to cancel out if you click it a 2nd time making things easier for classes who get feign death?We don't want stupid-easy. We want a failsafe to make sure we stay alive. As it stands, the way FD is RIGHT NOW and has been since the game started, is exactly as easy as the skill is suppose to use.I mean all players have to do to cancel it is hit X to stand up. We don't want to cancel it by clicking the button again.

Kaleyen

12-07-2007, 09:56 AM

Another vote for LEAVE IT ALONE...IF IT'S NOT BROKE DON'T FIX IT.

KBern

12-07-2007, 10:28 AM

Utterly, and totally stupid change.No logic at all to it!The only logic is to hope people waste their FD through clicking and lag and stand back and get whacked.GOOD JOB SOE!Keep up the good work.

urgatorbait

12-07-2007, 11:25 AM

I like this change. It's about time.

Junaru

12-07-2007, 11:28 AM

<cite>urgatorbait wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like this change. It's about time.</blockquote>What is there to like about it? What saves you from having the sit/stand key on a hot bar or learning to type /stand or hit X? This HAS the chance to do more harm then good. It only takes one time for your to double click FD for it to not be worth the change. One time.Sorry SOE but I have to agree. Leave FD alone.

KBern

12-07-2007, 11:44 AM

<cite>urgatorbait wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like this change. It's about time.</blockquote>Just being a troll, or are you dense enough to not realize how there is nothing good about this change?Here is a l33t strat for you....hit X.

Galeden

12-07-2007, 12:39 PM

<cite>Geist wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ekaunek@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's called UI consistency. Just about all other maintained effects can be canceled by pressing the activation button again. I play a necromancer and I am not bothered by this in the least.</blockquote>It's called reading comprehension. Notice the topic of the thread says Brawler FD? I don't know or care how Necros, SK's, Tinkerers, or anyone else who can cast, proc, or fake FD. Every Brawler should be against this change.</blockquote>You know, you loose most of your support for your case by saying oh I don't care if you break something for others as long as I personally am not affected. It is a common issue for any FD class. How would it be if I said oh thats great for brawlers I don't care about them, take away their FD completely just leave necro's alone? I would gladly count myself in with saying this is a bad move, and I am completely against it, it introduces tons of accidents, not to mention it will likely change the reuse time, meaning when you drop FD the timer will start at that point, but oh I play a necro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaleyen

12-07-2007, 12:48 PM

1. Fix the lag during peek time hours2. Fix the zoning3. Fix theT7 M1 vs T8 AD3 CAs/Spells4. Fix the itemization All of the above are broke or seriously messed up and need some attention and have 5+ threads about them.FD mechanics are not broken, so why are you changing it when there is so many other things that need fixing?

KBern

12-07-2007, 12:53 PM

Yeah with the refresh timer not starting until the spell is cancelled as opposed to cast, AND now the chance to waste your FD if a double click is done through lag, or just the OH [Removed for Content] moment of hitting the spell...this is a ridiculously unecessary change.

Geist

12-07-2007, 01:51 PM

<cite>Galeden wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know, you loose most of your support for your case by saying oh I don't care if you break something for others as long as I personally am not affected. It is a common issue for any FD class. How would it be if I said oh thats great for brawlers I don't care about them, take away their FD completely just leave necro's alone? I would gladly count myself in with saying this is a bad move, and I am completely against it, it introduces tons of accidents, not to mention it will likely change the reuse time, meaning when you drop FD the timer will start at that point, but oh I play a necro <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Appologies. I more meant that I don't care how other people feel about it, because I know the Brawlers are going to hate it... if other classes hate this change, great, we can use the support. What I don't want is someone coming in here and pretending like this change will effect a Tinkerer the way it effects a Brawler.

DocFlareon

12-07-2007, 02:12 PM

I use my necro main as an example for the simple fact that my bruiser is only lvl 13. I'll move her forward on my play-time rotation so I can get FD, and then I'll copy Ms. Martial Artist over to Test and find out for myself if this is the disaster in the making that the Brawler community seems to think it is.

Zeltaria

12-07-2007, 02:23 PM

<cite>Kaleyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Fix the lag during peek time hours2. Fix the zoning3. Fix theT7 M1 vs T8 AD3 CAs/Spells4. Fix the itemization All of the above are broke or seriously messed up and need some attention and have 5+ threads about them.FD mechanics are not broken, so why are you changing it when there is so many other things that need fixing?</blockquote>I totally agree.. Fix stuff that IS broken, and leave stuff alone that's not! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I dont understand why this change is taking place, sure it'll make room for one more hotkey off the bar (stand/sit). But, this is a HUGE change to FD. I have a Shadowknight and a monk and I dont know how this is going to affect them, but I have moments where I spam the FD key just because i'm either stunned or it didnt register with the lag, or whatever. This would be a huge mistake to change the way FD works. I've been playing my SK and my husband his Necro more and lately we've been in zones where some plat farmer trains mobs onto us just because we're there. But we at least have the tools to avoid getting killed, like FD. When this happens we usually FD and then open the petition page and petition and report the person who just trained us, and our FD counters are counting down, so by the time we finish it's back up and ready to use again in case the plat farmer decides to try and kill us again. Changing the way the FD works and the way the count down timer works is taking away from certain classes playability to survive. I think it's a HUGE mistake to change it, please Devs... please don't change this!

KBern

12-07-2007, 04:06 PM

<cite>Ekaunek@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I use my necro main as an example for the simple fact that my bruiser is only lvl 13. I'll move her forward on my play-time rotation so I can get FD, and then I'll copy Ms. Martial Artist over to Test and find out for myself if this is the disaster in the making that the Brawler community seems to think it is.</blockquote>You are not grasping how this affects you.As a necro your FD lasts for 5 mins and has a 5 min recast.As it is now, you can can FD, lay there for the full 5 mins, pop up, and be able to use FD again because the 5 min refresh timer has expired.With this change, you cannot do that anymore, your 5 min refresh on FD has just turned into min 5 minutes if you stand right up, but it is now 5 mins + whatever time you spent on the ground FD up to 5 mins.This is actually worse for necros then brawlers in that regard.Plus if you get high enough to raid regularly....you will have times when your FD is not working because of a stun....if you hit over and over again as you can now, you FD as soon as you can, in this change, you will simply finally be able to to FD, then instantly stand right up again and waste your FD.

Pyra Shineflame

12-07-2007, 04:13 PM

Actually it isn't worse or better for necros as they are changing the duration of a necro's FD to 12 hours as well.Just fyi.But yea, as a shadowknight, this seems very stupid.

KBern

12-07-2007, 04:25 PM

Wilin

12-07-2007, 04:31 PM

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually it isn't worse or better for necros as they are changing the duration of a necro's FD to 12 hours as well.Just fyi.But yea, as a shadowknight, this seems very stupid.</blockquote>If the recast timer stays the same, then it can be worse for necros. As it stands now, you can wait the full duration of the FD, stand up and immediately FD again if you have to. With this change, you can wait 1 min or 1 hour with FD, whenever you decide to stand up, you will have to wait for the 5 min reuse timer to refresh. So, there will be 5 mins of no FD no matter how long you lay on the ground. (Unless they change the recast as well)And SKs can currently FD for 12 hours.

Galeden

12-07-2007, 04:38 PM

FYI necros can already FD for 12 hours, this was already done on live.

Couching

12-07-2007, 04:40 PM

This change didn't improve any gaming experience for monk and nec. I have no idea why Devs even bother to waste their time making this change. There are a lot of more important issues that deserves their time.

Junaru

12-07-2007, 04:46 PM

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change didn't improve any gaming experience for monk and nec. I have no idea why Devs even bother to waste their time making this change. There are a lot of more important issues that deserves their time. </blockquote>I'm less worried about why and more worried about the reverting it.

MadBarman

12-07-2007, 04:48 PM

Hurray for another completely pointless change to skills that work fine as it is.One thing that hasn't been mentioned, what about monks group feign death?

Novusod

12-07-2007, 04:52 PM

This change is totally wacked and servers no purpose whatsoever other then to get FD spammers killed. I have to spam FD because of the frame rate chop on my client where one click does not always register. SoE's motto: Fixing stuff until it breaks.Good job in living up to that reputation.

tt66

12-07-2007, 08:37 PM

Leave the thing alone, it doesn't need a toggle.make a macro that says /stand. or hit the "x" key. that's all we need to stand up. making an accidental double-click cancel FD is a bad idea. nobody wants it, nobody asked for it so why do it?

Megami_Kieo

12-07-2007, 08:52 PM

Just thought I'd chime in to say that I don't like this at all either. Makes it WAY too easy to accidently double click it. Its so easy to hit x to stand to cancel it, why on earth change it?!? I don't think I've ever right-clicked to cancel it, but I've sure accidently double clicked spells a lot!

Snowdonia

12-07-2007, 09:04 PM

I didn't think this was a bad idea at first. I even thought to myself, "about time." Then I got in game yesterday on my Bruiser and came to a situation where you panic attack spam FD... Then it dawned on me, "hang on, if I do that with the new change, I'd of been dead."So add a vote to leave it alone. If I can learn early on in my Bruiser life to hit X to get back up (from a Necro friend who had been playing a FDing class much longer) then so can anyone else. At least it doesn't ruin the integrity of what FD is meant to do.I will say, if they go through with this change, then they need to make FD have ZERO casting time/refresh time like it is in EQ1.

x0rtrun

12-08-2007, 05:11 AM

This change is going through, and nothing we say or do wills top it. Here's why. As it is now, a brawler can run into a crowd of mobs,and providing it doesn't fail, FD, wait 10 secs, stand up and run a few more feet and FD again. Rinse, repeat. Allowing a brawler to get to places more easily than any other class. A real boon for the class to be sure, but completely counter to what the devs want you to be able to do. This change will completely prevent that because now you FD like normal, but since the recast timer doesn't start until you stand up, you have to wade around in a sea of mobs for at least 10 seconds until you can even attempt to FD again and escape. This makes getting through tough areas MUCH harder. A large throng of mobs can put out a fatal amount of damage in 10 seconds. You all act like they are making this change out of the blue for no reason other than to mess with stuff that isn't broken. But they know exactly what they are doing. This is a nerf.

Ramius613

12-08-2007, 05:39 AM

I agree it is going to stay, but honestly it was the one advantage that brawlers had. IT IS A CLASS DEFINING SKILL!!! With our quick recast timer, it allowed us to go anywhere we wanted, that was the only thing we had left of this skill, since they have now given it to every class in the game that wants to spend some time tinkering. DO NOT PUT THIS CHANGE IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Beogon

12-08-2007, 05:41 AM

Thanks for taking away the one cool part about being a brawler. Account canceled if this goes live.

Ramius613

12-08-2007, 10:19 AM

The only reason for this change, which I am against (as I said earlier), is to prevent us from being able to FD our way through X zone to get updates for quests(possibly epic? . IMO, it is completely pointless, because I doubt you're going to be able to go in and just "find" your epic weapon. You are still going to have to kill X mob to get your update. Now I will be honest that I have used the FD tactic to get my pages for SoD, but guess what, I still have to get a group together to go in and kill the named, and I still need to be on a raid to kill Mayong. As a member of a class that has been nerfed/overlooked/completely screwed for so long, this change is a drop in the bucket as to what devs should be working on. Our class is one that unless you are with a smaller guild, you only need ONE on a raid, and other slots can be filled with more useful classes.Also, FD has been working this way since launch, what is the need for this change? Most people know that 'X' cancels it, and if you remapped your keyboard, right clicking it, typing '/stand' works as well. Also most monks (as well as other classes that can cast FD on someone else) are usually nice enough to explain the aforementioned ways of canceling it.Finally, the lag issue, and possible double clicking, due to lag, stun, etc, will be a major problem with a lot of people.

Geist

12-08-2007, 12:15 PM

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote>This change is going through, and nothing we say or do wills top it. Here's why.As it is now, a brawler can run into a crowd of mobs,and providing it doesn't fail, FD, wait 10 secs, stand up and run a few more feet and FD again. Rinse, repeat. Allowing a brawler to get to places more easily than any other class. A real boon for the class to be sure, but completely counter to what the devs want you to be able to do.This change will completely prevent that because now you FD like normal, but since the recast timer doesn't start until you stand up, you have to wade around in a sea of mobs for at least 10 seconds until you can even attempt to FD again and escape. This makes getting through tough areas MUCH harder. A large throng of mobs can put out a fatal amount of damage in 10 seconds.You all act like they are making this change out of the blue for no reason other than to mess with stuff that isn't broken. But they know exactly what they are doing. This is a nerf.</blockquote>So we'll be going from a good a-to-b class if you're patient, to being the worst travelers in the game? If ease-of-travel is such an issue, please remove Invis and movement buffs from the game as well.

Cusashorn

12-08-2007, 12:30 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>SoE's motto: Fixing stuff until it breaks.Good job in living up to that reputation. </blockquote>Actually, SoE's motto is: "Break stuff until it's fixed."

Writer Cal

12-08-2007, 12:34 PM

Not sure what angers me more...the fact that they're nerfing FD or the fact that they're trying to cover it up by wording the notes to sound like this is a good thing for "convenience."Ah, feel the love. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Please leave FD alone.

Zidab

12-08-2007, 12:43 PM

I always just pressed "X" to cancel it...Which by the way, for those who don't know, is sit on defaults...It works when you're in FD. So I don't understand the purpose of this.

Novusod

12-08-2007, 01:52 PM

<cite>x0rtrunks wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it is now, a brawler can run into a crowd of mobs,and providing it doesn't fail, FD, wait 10 secs, stand up and run a few more feet and FD again. Rinse, repeat. Allowing a brawler to get to places more easily than any other class. A real boon for the class to be sure, but completely counter to what the devs want you to be able to do. This change will completely prevent that because now you FD like normal, but since the recast timer doesn't start until you stand up, you have to wade around in a sea of mobs for at least 10 seconds until you can even attempt to FD again and escape. This makes getting through tough areas MUCH harder. A large throng of mobs can put out a fatal amount of damage in 10 seconds. You all act like they are making this change out of the blue for no reason other than to mess with stuff that isn't broken. But they know exactly what they are doing. This is a nerf.</blockquote>They might as well just delete the brawler class from the game. No more training to MMIS to zone in after a guildie leaves or sneaking into Veshan's peak. Could any brawler train to CoA with 10 second recast after standing. The days of the get anywhere brawler are over. The one little bit of utility we had is now gone.

Arathy

12-08-2007, 06:32 PM

Another VERY ANGERED by this proposed change.Leave the ability alone. It's worked fine since launch 4 years ago. X works fine to stand up, no body in their right mind right-click cancels unless they're too dense to figure out how to stand up. You've already made us a non-desirable raiding class with all the nerfs we've endured over the years. Leave the [Removed for Content] ability alone and go overpower swashies and guardians so more if you're looking for things to do.Better yet, maybe actually fix things that ARE broken.. like agro free harvesting in Kylong Drachnid caves.. the new hot spot for every bot-farmer on the servers.Or how about the horrible lag.. you could fix that too!Just quit ruining my class. Unless you'd like to to cancel my accounts - That could be arranged.

Zabjade

12-08-2007, 08:03 PM

I'm throwing in my vote for the "No toggle for FD" X is just fine and I can inform others who I group FD to hit X to stand (although some seem to have problems with it at first lol)If you want things to fix for Brawlers all of us can give you a list:Uncontested avoidance in Raids (Even a bump in resists would help)Regular avoidance that is less then a plate tank'sWeapon and Armor itemization (monks do NOT need any more Haste)The Strength Line for Brawlers (Hmm throw in the super jump as well might have more Frogs and Sannie Brawlers then)Consolidate out Buffs we also have too many negatives in our buff-lines as well.Lore---oh wait, that is the only thing we have going for us! Good Job Vhalen and others of the Lore Staff! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Why I still play a Monk as my main, Class Loyalty.

Cusashorn

12-08-2007, 08:12 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm throwing in my vote for the "No toggle for FD" X is just fine and I can inform others who I group FD to hit X to stand (although some seem to have problems with it at first lol)If you want things to fix for Brawlers all of us can give you a list:Uncontested avoidance in Raids (Even a bump in resists would help)Regular avoidance that is less then a plate tank'sWeapon and Armor itemization (monks do NOT need any more Haste)The Strength Line for Brawlers (Hmm throw in the super jump as well might have more Frogs and Sannie Brawlers then)Consolidate out Buffs we also have too many negatives in our buff-lines as well.Lore---oh wait, that is the only thing we have going for us! Good Job Vhalen and others of the Lore Staff! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />Why I still play a Monk as my main, Class Loyalty.</blockquote>Don't you mean "Regular avoidance that is more than a plate tank's"?

Zabjade

12-08-2007, 09:17 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm throwing in my vote for the "No toggle for FD" X is just fine and I can inform others who I group FD to hit X to stand (although some seem to have problems with it at first lol)If you want things to fix for Brawlers all of us can give you a list:Uncontested avoidance in Raids (Even a bump in resists would help)Regular avoidance that is less then a plate tank'sWeapon and Armor itemization (monks do NOT need any more Haste)The Strength Line for Brawlers (Hmm throw in the super jump as well might have more Frogs and Sannie Brawlers then)Consolidate out Buffs we also have too many negatives in our buff-lines as well.Lore---oh wait, that is the only thing we have going for us! Good Job Vhalen and others of the Lore Staff! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" />Why I still play a Monk as my main, Class Loyalty.</blockquote>Don't you mean "Regular avoidance that is more than a plate tank's"?</blockquote>Yes I meant that it is currently LESS plate tanks. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Kamal

12-09-2007, 12:16 AM

One more for leave it be. This expansion was pretty poor overall for brawlers IMO, we're stuck with mostly healer leather and now we're getting nerfed with FD.If it does go live, +1 for a shelved brawler.

mattmandude

12-09-2007, 12:19 AM

This is a terribly lame idea. I see no reason why this should be changed, and now all I'll have to worry about is whether or not feign death activated properly when there's lag =//thumbsdown*EDIT* Where in hell did they get this idea, when there's other things way more important??

Ganlu

12-09-2007, 01:00 AM

I don't understand the toggling portion, but I can definitely see why they're making the recast start after you stand up.Honestly, I don't care that brawlers can get some places more easily than any other class. However, it seems obvious that if this change goes through, it's to prevent things like FD-ing your way down to blue shinies in Sebilis, or similar things in CMM. Or FD-ing to quest updates that most classes would have to fight to. Unfortunately this removes what is probably the most fun part of being a brawler; I know as I have a bruiser alt.The toggling isn't the issue here - it's preventing feign-chaining. Whether they go through with it or not will be interesting, to say the least. At least brawlers are the ones selling the reet knight collection pieces for people like me who can't get there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

russkyj

12-09-2007, 01:04 AM

you have got to be kidding me, why are you removing/completly nerfing a class defining ability. Turn this off before it goes to live Uryuk

Morgrimson

12-09-2007, 03:50 AM

Wow and I thought I was the only on who saw this was a poor change hehe. I have been a brawler since the game went live and I have just accepted the changes to my class with little more then a whimper thinking well at least they will give us something back. guess what that never happened and it looks like it never will, I love RoK but brawlers are hosed with itemization ok I can live with that for now. I even read the bruiser fourms and ask myself why all these other bruisers are crying I love the class in every aspect from Soloing to raiding ya know what we don't have a reason in my eyes that is until now, this has to be the worst idea for a change ever, My only advice is leave the skill alone and stop listeningto the other classes that are cryin about something they really know nothing about. Or maybe we should all just join hands and sing kum-by-yaa with the developer who thought of this change.

Mordain

12-09-2007, 05:31 AM

<cite>Ganluan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't understand the toggling portion, but I can definitely see why they're making the recast start after you stand up.Honestly, I don't care that brawlers can get some places more easily than any other class. However, it seems obvious that if this change goes through, it's to prevent things like FD-ing your way down to blue shinies in Sebilis, or similar things in CMM. Or FD-ing to quest updates that most classes would have to fight to. Unfortunately this removes what is probably the most fun part of being a brawler; I know as I have a bruiser alt.The toggling isn't the issue here - it's preventing feign-chaining. Whether they go through with it or not will be interesting, to say the least. At least brawlers are the ones selling the reet knight collection pieces for people like me who can't get there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>This is exactly why , non brawler classes complaining that we can do this and they cant, so it must be unfair....This is the sweet science of being a brawler, we can level faster, handle quests better, FD our way through places. Now that people complain that we can do something they cannot, ohhh no lets nerf it. If you cant get down to seb to get blue shinies then roll a brawler....its not our fault that you choose your class. 4 Years its been this way, and now with new expansion people see it as unfair, pls....play a brawler and see how fair it is, your hardly wanted for raids or groups, leaving you to just solo 99% of the time. I mean come on, its all part of being a brawler is to be able to FD our way to places. This is how we get around without Sow or Invis, its like taking away sow for druids, or invis for scouts. Its completely unfair.....

WackyDakky

12-09-2007, 06:27 AM

Bravo to SoE.I say that because they've finally found a way to convince the brawler players to quit so they can remove the class.We've taken a lot of crap from you over the past 4 years, turning our class into one of the least desireable raiding and grouping classes. We've sat back as you constantly nerf everything that defines what we are and gives us any edge in any category over any other class. Thanks a lot.I just came back a few months ago, but I'll be damned if I stay around if this change goes through. After the royal screwjob we got in RoK because some devs were too lazy to itemize for us, you want to change a mechanic that has worked fine for 4 years? What exactly makes a brawler special if we can't FD anymore?How about you fix other stupid bugs instead of finding ways to screw over what few loyal brawlers you have left? How about someone looks into why I can't lose aggro in a group with FD? What kind if stupid mechanic change idea was that?Wow. And I thought I was upset about itemization. This takes the cake.

tomsky

12-09-2007, 09:41 AM

Thank you SoE, /sarcasm offIf this isnt a reason for all brawlers to finally quit the game i dont know what is, its just all nerf nerf nerf with brawlers tbh, some people may claim that you increased brawler demand by giving us a raid buff (just like all fighters so didnt really work) and Devastation fist (that doesnt work on nameds properly anyway ...)So ... are you really trying to remove all brawlers from the game, or just trying to make other classes feel better?FD is about the only useful ab ility that all brawlers get that most other classes dont get. We have little or no raid demand,We have little group demandThank god for RoK solo content! /sarcasmPS - SoE, I can see alot of brawlers probably quitting the game if this update goes in, no one wants to play a [Removed for Content] class to be totally honest.

silentpsycho

12-09-2007, 10:55 AM

<cite>Beogon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for taking away the one cool part about being a brawler. Account canceled if this goes live.</blockquote>QFE * The SECOND this goes live, I am canceling my account.

Bewts

12-09-2007, 11:42 AM

WE PREFER TO PRESS X!There is absolutely no positive reason to make this change.The toggle idea may be great in theory but only creates more issues unless the recast timer starts the moment it is cast. Do not change this over the failure to design content to keep us FD'ing characters out of places we have absolutely no business getting to alone. Change that content and leave the skill alone.Let me repeat myself and what I feel the majority of the FDing community thinks of this idea:WE PREFER TO PRESS X!

ds6

12-09-2007, 01:31 PM

I agree, LEAVE IT ALONE.

Zabjade

12-09-2007, 01:53 PM

I think that is what they want, is the Brawlers to quit the game, that way they can delete the class all together and maybe bring in a new variation of a Guardian or Berserker.I may be blowing smoke on this one, heck I hope I am! but so far dev response makes me think that is what they are doing. I'm not trying to troll, just want some reasons WHY this change and all the other nerfs are in place for monks and I want to debate them with them! They can go on about vision and stuff but when it comes down to character survival we are Gimped to $#!t!

etch666

12-09-2007, 03:12 PM

I can't believe after this many years this is being nerfed.You have the quest widget stuff that stops getting the quest updates deep in dungeons, thats fair enough. But nerfing FD like this is totally [Removed for Content]You take away this class defining ability then the brawler class will become a rare breed indeed, because exploring zones in (relative) safety is one of the main attractions and perks of the brawler class.Without this we are not only a lesser tank, lesser dps we are also a lot more boring to play...FFS leave the brawler class alone, its pretty [Removed for Content] obvious you are neglecting the class this expansion already without this unwarranted attack.

Timaarit

12-09-2007, 04:07 PM

I already canceled my subscription. I really don't care anymore if this goes live or not, the idea itself was the last straw for me. The devs are liars and mods back them up. They push up a dev at a time to advertise how they will include brawlers in 'the next patch' and with the next patch they just change the scapegoat.At least Fyreflyte doesn't pretend he/she cares like the last liar did./bye

Zarafein

12-09-2007, 05:17 PM

I don't mind the click chance so much, but the recast part is a serious nerf. i even understand it to some degree.. but it's really evil to do it now when the class is in such a horrible state beaten and punched down again and again for years, when was the last time brawlers got something really nice and how many times were they nerfed?i'am gladthat i realised this route some time ago and made my main bruiser and alt character for fun.

Arathy

12-09-2007, 05:25 PM

Pushing this live will be a nice way for me to justify canceling all my accounts.My bruiser is my fav class, and I don't enjoy any other classes. So then, what's the point in playing if you oh-so-wise Devs keep on nerfing brawlers. This is a huge nerf. You're taking our class defining ability that has been FINE for 4 years and gimping it. We've endured so many beatings from your [Removed for Content] nerf bat that we're a shell of what we once were. Itemization in this expansion is crap for us, partly due to a certain dev's laziness, and now you grace us with this.I played EQ1 for 5 years and I never had to deal with the amount of crappy nerfs that you all have put out in 4..Just leave our ability alone, please..Or maybe they're nerfing this so they can give it back to us in AA's. /sarcasm

Exordus

12-09-2007, 05:50 PM

/agree If this goes live, i think i'm done as well. I love my monk, but every change they make, every problem that's BROKEN and isn't fixed, every nerf just makes it harder and harder to enjoy playing the class. I've got 2 accounts that I duel-box. If they are doing this b/c brawlers get more "blue shiny's" then other classes then I'm absolutely done. [Removed for Content] cares about blue shiny's? You want them, get a group of friends and go harvest them. I mean, no more scouting out new Epic zones, or even old ones (EH hoping not to find the rumbler)...or even heroic zones for that matter. No more playing the class b/c of their soloability while questing....no more training guild members through a zone so they can reach a raid instance for loot they may need....maybe i'll be ok with this change if they actually fix avoidance, which isn't likely to happen. /sigh

silentpsycho

12-09-2007, 06:44 PM

You know, the thing that really irritates me is that with ROK, they "fixed" it so that scouts and mages invis and stealth no longer have any cool down timer and can instantly be recast to enable them to do this sort of stuff easier. And in the very next LU, they "fix" it so brawlers class defininig abilty no longer works. [[it's bad enough you can't FD off built up aggro- pop back up and get pummeled... but now this!?!]] If brawlers don't start moving in the other direction with some well deserved fixes (like the STR line/epic weapon issue, among many others), and things keep going towards a watered down, boring game of "everscout", then what is the point of paying for a subscription?

Tethias

12-09-2007, 07:02 PM

This is by far the worst change to a class I've ever seen. By doing this, you effectively remove all utility that this class would have.

Britefire

12-09-2007, 07:31 PM

Ruin my first main, the ranger i'm madruin my current main, monk, and you suck<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Splor

12-09-2007, 08:01 PM

My vote is definitely against this. Lets just hope that this doesn't go through.

Snowdonia

12-09-2007, 08:04 PM

<cite>*bows deeply to Splorch in respect*Thanks for that.</cite>

silentpsycho

12-09-2007, 08:32 PM

<cite>Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote>and then dev that thought of it gets fired for stupidity.</blockquote>Wishing ill will on a persons livelihood is not only bad form but I believe against the forum rules. Don't denigrate this thread by beginning to make comments like this. It's not going to do anything but get it closed and our voices censored.</blockquote>While I agree with your sentiment, the incompetence is glaring here, so I can't say I completely disagree with Splorch's sentiment. Thinking that this is going to get reverted if we're nice and polite about it (like the myriad of other threads about brawler issues that are still active and quietly ignored) is pretty stupid. My prediction is that this will go live no matter what we do.

greenmantle

12-09-2007, 08:59 PM

<cite>Geist wrote:</cite><blockquote>FD is one of the fews things not totally broken or gimped on Brawlers, please don't break the only thing that actually works for us by messing with it needlessly.</blockquote>One of the best solo clases in the game a great tank (if the person behind the screen knows what they are doing) some problems getting into raids yes but then so does every other tank class.So why does every minor change to bruisers become a 6 page whine fest of omg look how bad we are how dare they, its gotten pretty old pretty fast you want to try gimped try a ranger or a bard or perhaps learn your class rather than expecting the dev's to hand you the game on a platter.

Splor

12-09-2007, 09:09 PM

I'd imagine you dont play a brawler. Would you like another nerf to rangers? how about a nerf to bards? i didnt think you would and neither do i, especially since i play a troub when im bored. So when we get nerfed, you say we're whining. If the developers saidupdate 42- "all arrows will count as level 1, and rangers ill be turned into assassins. you would cry"FD no longer allows us to get around hard places and to quests, and is easily cancelled by lag or error or maybe a nervous twitch, we might as well be berzerkers wearing leather.

Zabjade

12-09-2007, 09:17 PM

No Berserkers have better avoidance, AA's and mitigation

tt66

12-09-2007, 09:35 PM

<cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>One of the best solo clases in the game a great tank (if the person behind the screen knows what they are doing) some problems getting into raids yes but then so does every other tank class.So why does every minor change to bruisers become a 6 page whine fest of omg look how bad we are how dare they, its gotten pretty old pretty fast you want to try gimped try a ranger or a bard or perhaps learn your class rather than expecting the dev's to hand you the game on a platter. </blockquote>Maybe they only seem "minor" to you because you don't play the class? Just a thought.

greenmantle

12-09-2007, 09:42 PM

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>One of the best solo clases in the game a great tank (if the person behind the screen knows what they are doing) some problems getting into raids yes but then so does every other tank class.So why does every minor change to bruisers become a 6 page whine fest of omg look how bad we are how dare they, its gotten pretty old pretty fast you want to try gimped try a ranger or a bard or perhaps learn your class rather than expecting the dev's to hand you the game on a platter. </blockquote>Maybe they only seem "minor" to you because you don't play the class? Just a thought.</blockquote>Troll brawler and woodelf monk but i will admit i am a lousy brawler i tend to end up on th bard because i have friends that are much better brawlers than i am. Stealth was changed and it was pointed out then than fd now had a significant advantage over scouts the change was going to happen.

Lortet

12-10-2007, 12:04 AM

just another NO vote - don't do it!

Jakdanielz

12-10-2007, 01:09 AM

5 years of EQ1 and now 4 years of EQ2 I have seen the nerf bat swing in a wide arc many times and always just accepted it with a grain of salt. In 9 years of EQ I have never once questioned why you guys do what you do when you step up to the plate. But THIS is different now I respectfully ask can a DEV please explain to us why you want to nerf FD it has worked just fine for 4 years in eq2 and way longer than that in eq1.Please at least give us an explanation so that we as a community can at least have a chance to understand and/or dispute the change or even certain aspects of the change for the betterment of all involved.

cheet

12-10-2007, 01:23 AM

I surely hope that the devs take a hard look at what they are about to do and realize that if they want to keep my business then leave the the dang FD alone. Seems to me that SOE does a great job of finding ways to constantly lower its player base, you sure picked another win here SONY.

Snowdonia

12-10-2007, 02:46 AM

<cite>I'll refrain from continuing this "off topic" conversation as the offending remark was removed.</cite>

clizzy2000

12-10-2007, 03:22 AM

You got me back two months ago with your winback month, and the LoN card game I kinda got into. With the LoN promo weeks not working right, the user base in LoN sucking for tourney weekends, and now you are effing with my one toon I play? I have canceled my account. I had been gone for over 9 months, and I hope you enjoyed my subscription fees and ROK purchase for the past two months cause I'm done now. I was even going to buy my son an account so we could play together, but obviously you haven't learned anything.My own stupid fault for even coming back for two months. Enjoy your dwindling subscription base. All you had to do is leave my effing monk alone and I would have been happy. When you solo, the recast is how you get places a lot of the time. I solo 90% of the time cause LFG doesn't work as a monk anyway.Money talks, crying in the forum does nothing. You can shove your next winback cause I'm done now.

Novusod

12-10-2007, 04:24 AM

<cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of the best solo clases in the game a great tank (if the person behind the screen knows what they are doing) some problems getting into raids yes but then so does every other tank class.So why does every minor change to bruisers become a 6 page whine fest of omg look how bad we are how dare they, its gotten pretty old pretty fast you want to try gimped try a ranger or a bard or perhaps learn your class rather than expecting the dev's to hand you the game on a platter. </blockquote>Rangers aren't [Removed for Content] by any means and neither are Bards for that matter. I have also played a troub for a long time in addition to my bruiser so I know what I am talking about when I say this. The issues with troubs aren't even in the same league as to the state of how broken brawlers are right now. Yeah the troub was a little bit slower leveling through all these RoK quests than the bruiser but bards exist in the game for a reason that brawlers can't touch. Group content goes smoother with them and raids can't happen without them. What the heck is the point of being a brawler? If every single one of them was removed from the game no one who didn't play a brawler would care.

Emo

12-10-2007, 06:14 AM

i m curious how group FD or target FD from SK works, will you have to wait for the monk / SK to cancel it or will you be able to hit X and stand up. i d love to see a fall of the phoenix and monk saying bio BBin 10 and everyone having to lie on the ground until monk gets back. this change is horrible and i m not playing a brawler.

Junaru

12-10-2007, 11:28 AM

<cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>One of the best solo clases in the game a great tank (if the person behind the screen knows what they are doing) some problems getting into raids yes but then so does every other tank class.So why does every minor change to bruisers become a 6 page whine fest of omg look how bad we are how dare they, its gotten pretty old pretty fast you want to try gimped try a ranger or a bard or perhaps learn your class rather than expecting the dev's to hand you the game on a platter. </blockquote>Maybe they only seem "minor" to you because you don't play the class? Just a thought.</blockquote>Troll brawler and woodelf monk but i will admit i am a lousy brawler i tend to end up on th bard because i have friends that are much better brawlers than i am. Stealth was changed and it was pointed out then than fd now had a significant advantage over scouts the change was going to happen. </blockquote>Just do us a favor and STF out of the thread. You comment are useless and do nothing for this thread. You don't like 6 page rants then don't read them.I'm sick of being nerfed, I'm sick of being ignored and most of all I'm sick of other classes complaining when we rant about it. For christ sakes the reason you see 6 page Brawler threads each update is because each update we get nerfed for no reason.

Junaru

12-10-2007, 11:50 AM

Ok I have an idea to fix the accidental stand problem. If you make a macro with an insta-cast skill/spell in the 1st line then FD in the second it should keep you from standing since it will queue up the spell/skill and not hit FD (Because you can't cast while FDed). It's pretty sad that we need to come up with ideas like this to counter "fixes" that SOE puts in place.

WackyDakky

12-10-2007, 12:12 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok I have an idea to fix the accidental stand problem. If you make a macro with an insta-cast skill/spell in the 1st line then FD in the second it should keep you from standing since it will queue up the spell/skill and not hit FD (Because you can't cast while FDed). It's pretty sad that we need to come up with ideas like this to counter "fixes" that SOE puts in place.</blockquote>That might help some people with the spamming aspect, but it doesn't do jack to fix the real problem of the refresh timers that this creates <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I just realized how bad this is going to mess me up when FD fails. In addition to the 10 seconds of beatdown time waiting for the refresh, I also get additional beatdown time while I lay there waiting for the game to stand me back up on a failed FD.

Junaru

12-10-2007, 02:58 PM

<cite>Poogy@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok I have an idea to fix the accidental stand problem. If you make a macro with an insta-cast skill/spell in the 1st line then FD in the second it should keep you from standing since it will queue up the spell/skill and not hit FD (Because you can't cast while FDed). It's pretty sad that we need to come up with ideas like this to counter "fixes" that SOE puts in place.</blockquote>That might help some people with the spamming aspect, but it doesn't do jack to fix the real problem of the refresh timers that this creates <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />I just realized how bad this is going to mess me up when FD fails. In addition to the 10 seconds of beatdown time waiting for the refresh, I also get additional beatdown time while I lay there waiting for the game to stand me back up on a failed FD.</blockquote>I agree 100%. I find it funny though that I had to make up a macro to stop SOE "fix".

Cusashorn

12-10-2007, 03:25 PM

We NEED a Developer comment on this. If they don't explain it to us on the boards, then they better explain it in a dev chat somewhere, or at a fan faire.I hope they realize that it's the PLAYERBASE who knows what is best for this game. They may be the developers and programmers, but it's the playerbase that keep the game running. It's the playerbase who knows how the game should be changed to be more fun for all players.And if by some chance that the developers are implimenting this change because ONE player was jealous of the brawler's abilities, then they need to remember that Majority Rule should always apply. If one player complains, it's not an issue. if HUNDREDS of players protest, then it needs to be addressed.

Avokk

12-10-2007, 03:38 PM

"I hope they realize that it's the PLAYERBASE who knows what is best for this game"That made me laugh so hard i think i broke bonesSorry, but if playerbase was developing this game everyone would have lazer goggles, 1 gazillion HP god mode and 1000plat a day for shopping

Morrolan V

12-10-2007, 04:37 PM

<cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geist wrote:</cite><blockquote>FD is one of the fews things not totally broken or gimped on Brawlers, please don't break the only thing that actually works for us by messing with it needlessly.</blockquote>One of the best solo clases in the game a great tank (if the person behind the screen knows what they are doing) some problems getting into raids yes but then so does every other tank class.So why does every minor change to bruisers become a 6 page whine fest of omg look how bad we are how dare they, its gotten pretty old pretty fast you want to try gimped try a ranger or a bard or perhaps learn your class rather than expecting the dev's to hand you the game on a platter. </blockquote>I have long said that brawlers were excellent solo classes. A SIGNIFICANT reason for this is FD and our ability to move around difficult areas solo b/c of it. If they make this change with the refresh timer, it will really substantially reduce the soloability of this class.

circusgirl

12-10-2007, 05:15 PM

Leave FD alone!

delbranson

12-10-2007, 08:21 PM

I'm not terribly worried about my accidently doubleclicking the feign and cancelling it prematurely. It may happen on occasion, but we can adapt and just not click it repeatedly in a panic. Its still unnecessary though. The note rather showed the ignorance of the developer regarding this skill, saying to make it a toggle so we're not forced to exclusively just use a right-click cancel method of ending it. Nobody right-clicks and cancels anyway, and anyone who played a feign death class for more than a day would know that. Pressing the X key to stand was, is, and always will be fine, and any change is a waste of time.If this change goes into effect and negatively impacts the reuse speed, then I meet it with absolute disapproval. If it's the intent to nerf the reuse speed on feign death, then that's just wrong and you need to find better ways to spend your time. There are significant defects in brawler classes already, to include poor scaling of damage potential through achievements compared to other fighters and near total absence of T8 armor and weapons. Other classes have legitimate problems as well. Why waste time nerfing aspects of a beloved ability that has been the same for years when that time could be spent focused on actually bettering the game in the areas people are concerned about?

Zabjade

12-10-2007, 09:29 PM

<cite>Avokk wrote:</cite><blockquote>"I hope they realize that it's the PLAYERBASE who knows what is best for this game"That made me laugh so hard i think i broke bonesSorry, but if playerbase was developing this game everyone would have lazer goggles, 1 gazillion HP god mode and 1000plat a day for shopping</blockquote>We are not talking about a single ex-wow-player more like a community with a consensus. We know what is broken they do not have any major developers who play a brawler of any kind as a main, or if they do then they should be ashamed of themselves for giga-nerfing us to a tradeskiller only class!

thepriz

12-10-2007, 09:32 PM

This seems to be a problem with SOE designing games. They can't figure out how to give utility to characters and still make the game challenging. There biggest reason to not add levitation to the game is that it would allow people to pass mobs because you could just levitate over it. Another example is illusions don't work in EQ2 worth a dang. Players have come up with skills using there skills to beat the content in the game. Players should be rewarded for using skill not nerfed.Developers should develop content that allows characters use there skills to overcome content. I think the problem is that the Devs think people are bypassing content instead of overcoming it using a different technique. One of the worst things a DM could do in Dungeons & Dragons was force players to overcome content the exact way the DM envisioned the scene playing out. Just because a player uses spider climb to climb past, levitate to float over, or disarm to disarm a trap doesn't make it wrong it is just a different way to overcome the same problem.

Jobeson

12-10-2007, 09:47 PM

making this toggle will be a terrible change please do not do it.

Zabjade

12-10-2007, 11:38 PM

<cite>Deran@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>This seems to be a problem with SOE designing games. They can't figure out how to give utility to characters and still make the game challenging. There biggest reason to not add levitation to the game is that it would allow people to pass mobs because you could just levitate over it. Another example is illusions don't work in EQ2 worth a dang. Players have come up with skills using there skills to beat the content in the game. Players should be rewarded for using skill not nerfed.Developers should develop content that allows characters use there skills to overcome content. I think the problem is that the Devs think people are bypassing content instead of overcoming it using a different technique. One of the worst things a DM could do in Dungeons & Dragons was force players to overcome content the exact way the DM envisioned the scene playing out. Just because a player uses spider climb to climb past, levitate to float over, or disarm to disarm a trap doesn't make it wrong it is just a different way to overcome the same problem.</blockquote>Exactly! It is using your brains to overcome the lack of avoidance/mitigation. Rather then fighting through ^^^'s when there are few groups.

Igorsrath

12-10-2007, 11:54 PM

Add this to the healer gear I get to now wear/lack of brawler quest rewards and its just one more reason to cancel my account.Grimslap

Zabjade

12-11-2007, 12:53 AM

I've been going to the Mastercrafted stuff which is going to get a boost in 41, and I think I'm going to need it.

kojuro

12-11-2007, 02:39 AM

Wow. My monk is the only toon I play, and I've played it for 2 years now. FD is what I would call the brawler's class-defining ability. Messing with it so that the recast timer does not start until you stand up is simply unfair - we already have mediocre tanking and DPS abilities, so why the need to weaken FD as well? On the other hand, if you devs want to compensate us by giving us taunt that isn't just a pat on the [Removed for Content] or a couple of OMG damage attacks, then fine, nerf it. I just don't understand why the devs want this class to be just a tradeskill toon...LEAVE FD ALONE, PLEASE!

Rhyls

12-11-2007, 03:17 AM

Sheesh...I have been playing Everquest in some form or another since March of 2000. I was a raid main tank of a successful guild in EQ1. My play time will never be what it used to be, but still, I have been a loyal EQ/EQ2 gamer for a long time. Hell, my wife even started her own account and she has been playing almost every day since 2002.I leveled 3 characters to 70 and have many other 40+. Although my main in EQ1 was a warrior, my favorite character to play was my alt monk. When I came over to EQ2 I started a ranger and then got hit with nerf bat after nerf bat and switched to assassin. I realized that I should have learned my lesson from EQ1 and started an Iksar Bruiser. I did level a SK to 70 because of some friends, but the bruiser was always my favorite, and mostly for the same reason as it was in EQ1. I was able to DPS a little, solo well and get to places that most others could not. Monks were never the preferred melee based DPS in EQ1 and they are not in EQ2, but [Removed for Content] near everyone I knew had one as an alt. Why?Because when you could not find a group on your main, the monk in a fungi tunic was the most viable melee based solo class. Oh, and for another reason, they are [Removed for Content] fun to play. Part of that fun to play jalopy, was primarily the ability to solo and get places other classes could not. Now you want to nerf the class because the average brawler can feign down to the basement of SoS and get him some leet Legendary loot to pawn for 50 gold? Swell.Being that my bruiser is about the only thing that keeps me clinging to this game, if the nerf goes live, I will finally after almost eight years cancel my account. My wife has been looking for an excuse to go back to EQ1 to rejoin her old raid guild on Bristlebane.....or maybe go try out WoW where her tagolog speaking friends are. My void will be filled with far less nerf bat frustration by CoD4 and Assassins Creed.

Kaoru

12-11-2007, 03:18 AM

FD has been worked fine for the past 3 years. There is absolutely no reason to change it now. Leave it alone SOE

Stonecut

12-11-2007, 05:33 AM

"Press X"The only stated rationale for this change in the test update notes is that you no longer have to explicitly right-click the ability to cancel it. As many have already said all you need to do to cancel FD, whether you are a brawler or other class currently under its effects, is to press X. Be it a raid or group setting, whenever I've used Fall of the Phoenix and someone was unclear on how to get up all I had to say was "type X" and the issue would be forever resolved. No one cancels FD through right-clicking once they learn about "pressing x." I've often read but never felt compelled to post on these boards. I make a notable exception in this one case. This proposed "change", being instituted despite a host of other issues currently plaguing both the bruiser and monk classes which are discussed daily in their respective forums, is so profoundly misguided and devoid of justification as to receive the near universal condemnation and protest of the entire brawler community. If the proposed changes to the brawler strength AA line earlier this summer could be derailed through the objections of those who liked it for its roleplaying merits and those who felt the changes were no where near sufficient to justify their implementation then surely the growing chorus of resistance and the mounting threats of canceled subscriptions (hyperbolic though some may be) should be enough to demonstrate the manifest folly of this proposal.The current mechanics of feign death work properly and as intended. If you don't want to cancel FD by right-clicking, simply "Press X."

ChrissyFaey

12-11-2007, 06:03 AM

This is just horrible. There should be free class rerolls for brawlers after all of this. ;/

Exordus

12-11-2007, 08:29 AM

<cite>Igorsrath wrote:</cite><blockquote>Add this to the healer gear I get to now wear/lack of brawler quest rewards and its just one more reason to cancel my account.Grimslap</blockquote>GRIMMY!!!!!!! Love ya buddy.~X~

JonnyBlaaze

12-11-2007, 11:08 AM

<blockquote><cite>Igorsrath wrote:</cite><blockquote>Add this to the healer gear I get to now wear/lack of brawler quest rewards and its just one more reason to cancel my account.Grimslap</blockquote></blockquote>/agreeIf this goes live, theyre gonna see alot of us stop playing. FD is the last class defining ability us brawlers have left. Take it away or beat it with the nerf bat and you essentially destroy whats left of this class.With all the people whining about the ease of this expansion and how quick it was to level, why not focus resources on that? Why [Removed for Content] with something that isnt broken and [Removed for Content] off the masses?

Ganlu

12-11-2007, 11:15 AM

While I may not think this change is warranted, some people are acting like feign death is useless if this change goes through. It still makes brawlers a very high survivability class, because you can feign if a pull goes badly or a fight is not going your way. As long as you pull away from the spawn spot, having to stand up and wait for feign to recharge won't matter.

Silence01

12-11-2007, 11:22 AM

Very Stupid Idea from SOE VERY VERY Stupid!!!

Junaru

12-11-2007, 11:47 AM

<cite>Ganluan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I may not think this change is warranted, some people are acting like feign death is useless if this change goes through. It still makes brawlers a very high survivability class, because you can feign if a pull goes badly or a fight is not going your way. As long as you pull away from the spawn spot, having to stand up and wait for feign to recharge won't matter.</blockquote>Clearly you don't understand the full effect. Say I'm on a raid and we charge a mob. Everyone wipes except I FD. Well before I could stand up, jump, FD again and hope to survive a hit or two and maybe an AoE. Then wait 7sec and repeat till I'm out of the danger zone and can res people.Now thats not an option. If I FD near a mob I'm as good as dead now. Sorry but FD was NEVER a "Get out of jail free" card and now it's worse.

KBern

12-11-2007, 11:58 AM

If FD actually WIPED agro as opposed to SUSPENDED agro I would almost be OK with this change...almost.But it doesnt work the way it worked in EQ1....many complained but we have gotten used to it over the years EQ2 has been out.Now this change out of the blue for no actual stated reason but some PR fluff BS they are tossing around as if people actually complained to them in droves about not being able to cancel FD.Now in the goodness of their hearts they are "helping" us all out with this wonderful new change.At least cut the BS SOE and let us know the real reason this change is going through.

clizzy2000

12-11-2007, 02:12 PM

<cite>Rhyls wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sheesh... My void will be filled with far less nerf bat frustration by CoD4 and Assassins Creed.</blockquote>I agree. I put a bunch of games on hold to come back and play this. It's not like I'm going to be bored and come running back if you do this. I have Bioshock, Half Life Ep2, COD4, crysis, oblivion, Protal, Mario Galaxies all waiting to be played or only half way played. You aren't the only thing out there. My account is canceled, and I'm not signing back up if this goes through.

Supp

12-11-2007, 02:18 PM

Here's what we need to have happen. Maybe I should even make a new thread on this. DOMINO !We need Domino to make a brawler. Domino, make either brawler and roll her up, please. Since it's become clear that you are the only dev who isnt slathered with hatred or nerf complexes AND actually communicates with the community, we could really use you in our corner! I realize that youre responsible for crafting related content, but they apparently need to expand your power! Oh, and give her more money SOE!Everything I hear about Domino is nothing but praise. I even heard that at fanfaire, her booth was more crowded than all other dev booths combined. Come on brawlers, lets get her!

Supp

12-11-2007, 02:26 PM

<cite>clizzy2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rhyls wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sheesh... My void will be filled with far less nerf bat frustration by CoD4 and Assassins Creed.</blockquote>I agree. I put a bunch of games on hold to come back and play this. It's not like I'm going to be bored and come running back if you do this. I have Bioshock, Half Life Ep2, COD4, crysis, oblivion, Protal, Mario Galaxies all waiting to be played or only half way played. You aren't the only thing out there. My account is canceled, and I'm not signing back up if this goes through.</blockquote>I'm right there with you Clizzy. I'm going to raid a few months if only to show some respect for my guildies and verify my thoughts, but I'm all but decided at this point that my two 3 year old accounts are getting deactivated and not getting reactivated until the next expansion, and that's only IF they reinstate the content that I enjoy. This brawler nerf and the AA switcher absurdity are only the icing on the cake for me. There is much missing from Kunark, much ignored. It's almost like they engineered it to make me personally quit.Final Fantasy 12, Heavenly Sword and Eve Online all sit half played just waiting for their opportunity. And this is to say nothing of Final Fantasy 13, GTA4 and Star Wars The Force Unleashed, all due out in the March timeframe. As you say, there are many nonNerfhappy games awaiting me.

Novusod

12-11-2007, 02:57 PM

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I'm right there with you Clizzy. I'm going to raid a few months if only to show some respect for my guildies and verify my thoughts, but I'm all but decided at this point that my two 3 year old accounts are getting deactivated and not getting reactivated until the next expansion, and that's only IF they reinstate the content that I enjoy. This brawler nerf and the AA switcher absurdity are only the icing on the cake for me. There is much missing from Kunark, much ignored. It's almost like they engineered it to make me personally quit.Final Fantasy 12, Heavenly Sword and Eve Online all sit half played just waiting for their opportunity. And this is to say nothing of Final Fantasy 13, GTA4 and Star Wars The Force Unleashed, all due out in the March timeframe. As you say, there are many nonNerfhappy games awaiting me.</blockquote>What kind of limp wristed threat is that. If FD gets ruined in LU41 then I am gone and never coming back not even for EQ3 or any other product SoE puts out. RoK has been one disaster after another for my Bruiser. Where are the bruiser upgrades. Avoidance tanking has been broken since EoF came out and our dps has gone down to near irrelevance. Warriors get a sword that can auto attack for 4k and we get nothing but nerfs. One has to draw a line and know when to walk away. That time is now.

Dyse

12-11-2007, 03:01 PM

If this goes through, and I hope it doesn't, it will prove one of 2 things. 1. Developers are not allowed to read these forums because they'll grow a conscience.2. They don't speak english. (This must be true since the Anime character models and Mara) It's all left to English speaking PR people to sift through and not know how to report back that the playerbase doesn't like a change. The Live Update notes are translated with Google Language. Why they fight us, I'll never know. They always win in the end. No way to turn tide. You can holler Cancel all you want, but 1% of everyone who says that actually does. There's no way, even if this thread goes to 100 pages before the fiascle goes live, will they go back on something they said. Makes them look week and bendable. Makes them think, "If we bend on this issue, they'll think we'll bend on a future issue... to hell with the customer... keep on with the Live Update as planned". SoE is God, don't you know. You can Pray all you want to them, it's like praying for a winning lottery ticket... not gonna happen.It's in print 'Toggle' and it's gotta stay that way. So we just pay more to the Mender for a hastey click click click click.My time here is almost at an end. Will be this weekend when I get my 4th 80 (SOLO) and be totally bored with an expansion that cost double and too easy to play.

Iari111

12-11-2007, 04:13 PM

Do my eyes deceive me, or is there not a single dev post in this entire thread? How disappointing.I've been playing this game since Jan '05. My monk has been my main since February of that same year. Since then, she and I have endured all of the changes done to the class. Some changes have been good. Most have been bad. In the nearly three years I've played, I've been outright laughed at when I suggested to a group that I tank. At one time, monks' dps more than made up for the stigma against us as sub-par tanks. We have been relegated to the status of a solo class.Just the other night, I hit FD. It failed. I used my /stand macro, hit group FD. That failed too. /stand, FD again, and I lived. Barely. HP was in the red. After this change goes live, with the FD timer not refreshing until FD is canceled, I would have been dead. As others have said, FD is a class defining ability. And now this change will go live, which removes a vital part to the solo brawler's survivability. I agree with a poster on page 2 or 3 who stated that the devs know exactly what they are doing. This is not about the ease of canceling FD. This is about nerfing our ability to FD our way through a zone/dungeon. But what the devs seem to be forgetting/ignoring is that they are severely gimping a defining ability from a class that has been relegated, by all of their other nerfs to it, to soloing. There isn't a dev post here because they don't have the guts to admit the real reason for this change, nor the ability to tell convincing lies and platitudes.But hey devs, thanks so much for this upcoming change: "Cockatrice housepets now have additional interactions." I guess I won't leave the game after all. /rollseyes

Arathy

12-11-2007, 04:48 PM

<cite>Lunara@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do my eyes deceive me, or is there not a single dev post in this entire thread? How disappointing.</blockquote>Probably because they've got nothing but some weak excuse for this nerf. And if they are reading, then guess what guys. I've endured nerf after nerf on theis toon - the only toon I enjoy playing out of all 24 you all created for this game. If this goes live.. I'm out. I've had it. This is just sheer stupidity. Something that's worked fine for 4 years.. and all of a sudden it needs a change? Get bent. You want to fix something of ours? Start with our "superior" avoidance which is actually inferior in most cases.

KBern

12-11-2007, 05:02 PM

Yea it just amazes me that they think the playerbase is so gullibly naive that they can spout off this nerf as some feature."WHAT?!?! This is bad for you guys?!?! We had no idea....we were adding this a feature for your benefit! *gasp*"FD is not a game breaking feature. It fails. Monks and Bruisers still die.My necro definately still dies. A 5 min refresh timer on FD is not exploitable in any way. A 10 second refresh timer that starts at cast is not exploitable.Mobs still need to die.You already added the wonderful 2 second widget feature....that cannot be used when FD is active.Make a comment on this please and explain the perceive logic behind this, or lack thereof honestly, without assuming everyone is ignorant.

Haapy

12-11-2007, 05:21 PM

SoE should leave the x to stand up and not change FD to toggle effect to prevent lag from popping FD by accident, I agree. But they should retain timer starting at the moment you cancel FD.FD is "oh crap" spell, not a travel spell. Read the description of the class and ability. It is very sad so many taken a game glitch to be their defining ability. SoE tolerated it for a long time untill now brawlers figured out a way to immune flop through epic zones with zero danger (what is it again? spam fd, keep forward pressed, hit jump?). My guildmate flops through re-popped DT just fine. NO CLASS should be able to move through epics, that is why they all see invis. If brawlers were happy with skipping heroic content, I am sure FD would not have been touched. You have no one else to blame on that one.

Supp

12-11-2007, 05:26 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I'm right there with you Clizzy. I'm going to raid a few months if only to show some respect for my guildies and verify my thoughts, but I'm all but decided at this point that my two 3 year old accounts are getting deactivated and not getting reactivated until the next expansion, and that's only IF they reinstate the content that I enjoy. This brawler nerf and the AA switcher absurdity are only the icing on the cake for me. There is much missing from Kunark, much ignored. It's almost like they engineered it to make me personally quit. Final Fantasy 12, Heavenly Sword and Eve Online all sit half played just waiting for their opportunity. And this is to say nothing of Final Fantasy 13, GTA4 and Star Wars The Force Unleashed, all due out in the March timeframe. As you say, there are many nonNerfhappy games awaiting me.</blockquote>What kind of limp wristed threat is that. If FD gets ruined in LU41 then I am gone and never coming back not even for EQ3 or any other product SoE puts out. RoK has been one disaster after another for my Bruiser. Where are the bruiser upgrades. Avoidance tanking has been broken since EoF came out and our dps has gone down to near irrelevance. Warriors get a sword that can auto attack for 4k and we get nothing but nerfs. One has to draw a line and know when to walk away. That time is now.</blockquote>I hear you Novusod, but I try not to make things too permanent. It's possible that in time, the game dynamic might change to suit me again, so I'll at least leave the structure of that burned bridge up. And this isnt just about the brawler FD issue. There are quite a few crazy fubars in this expansion. But mainly, it's about the lack low tier (like L74) group instances. I dont raid to obtain gear so that I can raid better. I obtain the gear so I can enjoy the challenge of soloing those instances. That's where the real meat of the game is for me. This FD nerf is just the icing on the cake. As you can see, Ive created many different types of characters to try to insulate myself against massive change, but I didnt expect the whole game to turn upsidedown on me.I'll sum it up a little bit better. My original true main was my fury, who was then a warden. I could get groups decently enough, but not exacty when I had time to play. So many nights I would sit there wasting hours of RL time hoping to get a group to get some kind of quest updated. I also noticed I couldnt make money. I was always scraping by and doing without. I guess I just wasnt lucky. I did my whining and complaining about broken this or unlucky that and was on the verge of quitting, until I took matters into my own hands. That consisted of transferring my then L58 monk (who later became a bruiser) to a second account to twobox with my then L70 Fury. Suddenly, the world opened up to me. I could make a decent amount of coin, and I didnt have to wait on groups anymore. I could actually enjoy the game. So instead of cancelling one account, I opened up two, paying twice the price for every expansion, for every month of service, something I would think SOE would appreciate. In any case, it has served me well. Eventually, I got into twoboxing group instances. But later, tiring of bringing two charactes to the door, I embarked on the biggest of challenges, to not twobox these instances, but to solo them. I became so engrossed in making possible what so few said was, that I realized I had finally found my place in the game. I started creating characters, like that mystic in my sig, whose sole purpose it was to do this. And finally, there was a justifiable reason to spend all that time raiding to collect crazy gear and do something other than stand around in QH or EFP. Sure, it started because of the money, but it became what I loved. It was something I enjoyed and made me money. I was set. Anyway, that's all gone now. Replaced with solo questing to 80 because of gimped XP grinding, negating the need for low tier instances.But I'm still not poor because I least I have my brawler to collect shinies for me, or do I?

KBern

12-11-2007, 05:27 PM

<cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote>SoE should leave the x to stand up and not change FD to toggle effect to prevent lag from popping FD by accident, I agree. But they should retain timer starting at the moment you cancel FD.FD is "oh crap" spell, not a travel spell. Read the description of the class and ability. It is very sad so many taken a game glitch to be their defining ability. SoE tolerated it for a long time untill now brawlers figured out a way to immune flop through epic zones with zero danger (what is it again? spam fd, keep forward pressed, hit jump?). My guildmate flops through re-popped DT just fine. NO CLASS should be able to move through epics, that is why they all see invis. If brawlers were happy with skipping heroic content, I am sure FD would not have been touched. You have no one else to blame on that one.</blockquote>My friend's paladin runs through re-popped DT just fine also. Whats your point? Nerf awereness next? Lets nerf invis, coth, run speed buffs, stoneskin, and any number of other skills player use to travel or "bypass" content. It is not a 100% guarantee by any means, and in epic zones, one hit can kill a player, or stun them where they cannot FD anymore and die.

Iari111

12-11-2007, 05:40 PM

<cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote>SoE should leave the x to stand up and not change FD to toggle effect to prevent lag from popping FD by accident, I agree. But they should retain timer starting at the moment you cancel FD.FD is "oh crap" spell, not a travel spell. Read the description of the class and ability. It is very sad so many taken a game glitch to be their defining ability. SoE tolerated it for a long time untill now brawlers figured out a way to immune flop through epic zones with zero danger (what is it again? spam fd, keep forward pressed, hit jump?). My guildmate flops through re-popped DT just fine. NO CLASS should be able to move through epics, that is why they all see invis. If brawlers were happy with skipping heroic content, I am sure FD would not have been touched. You have no one else to blame on that one.</blockquote>A game glitch? Can you really call something a glitch that has been in the game for three years? You might be able to do so, but I can't and won't. The "oh crap" that you speak of should refer not to FD but to the fact the brawlers are for all intents and purposes a solo class. Have you not been paying attention? When you see someone asking for either a tank or a dps in the level channels, rest assured they are not asking for a brawler. "Oh crap" is my usual response when I see anything posted about brawlers by a dev because I know there is a good chance the change will not be a favorable one. Some people may use this ability to skirt past epic mobs... fantastic. I use it to survive in the overland zones. Shame on me.

KBern

12-11-2007, 05:49 PM

I am still very curious as to what skirting epic mobs will do for one player.I tried to skirt through MMC one time to get down to MMIS zone in.....was not the prettiest sight, even at lvl 70 with master FD.

Haapy

12-11-2007, 05:55 PM

This is not exactly what I am talking about. If you x+ jump while holding forward, while spamming FD button you have zero chance of a mob hitting or even registering you. Properly done it looks like you are jumping while FD. A complete immunity while traveling 10' at a time. Yes FD has a chance to break, and we can all share our horror stories how it broke 4 times in a row. Typically though, it is still a pretty fail-safe skill.

Haapy

12-11-2007, 06:10 PM

<cite></cite>Fd Monk through to safe spot near intended target, orb a summoner to him, coth raid, for example. With availability of coth-like devices from tinkering and hag, raid can get around things pretty fast with only a handful of people spending extra time prior to the rest of the guild assembling. This is just an example, and would only really work in DT pre-RoK (since any other zone it is faster just to clear it), but perhaps in upcoming raids this might be an issue (esp if you have to kill a specific spawnable mob at the end of the zone for epic quest).

Haapy

12-11-2007, 06:20 PM

<cite>Lunara@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote>SoE should leave the x to stand up and not change FD to toggle effect to prevent lag from popping FD by accident, I agree. But they should retain timer starting at the moment you cancel FD.FD is "oh crap" spell, not a travel spell. Read the description of the class and ability. It is very sad so many taken a game glitch to be their defining ability. SoE tolerated it for a long time untill now brawlers figured out a way to immune flop through epic zones with zero danger (what is it again? spam fd, keep forward pressed, hit jump?). My guildmate flops through re-popped DT just fine. NO CLASS should be able to move through epics, that is why they all see invis. If brawlers were happy with skipping heroic content, I am sure FD would not have been touched. You have no one else to blame on that one.</blockquote>A game glitch? Can you really call something a glitch that has been in the game for three years? You might be able to do so, but I can't and won't. The "oh crap" that you speak of should refer not to FD but to the fact the brawlers are for all intents and purposes a solo class. Have you not been paying attention? When you see someone asking for either a tank or a dps in the level channels, rest assured they are not asking for a brawler. "Oh crap" is my usual response when I see anything posted about brawlers by a dev because I know there is a good chance the change will not be a favorable one. Some people may use this ability to skirt past epic mobs... fantastic. I use it to survive in the overland zones. Shame on me.</blockquote>I group with monks tanking lots of times, they do great job. Most of tanks in my groups are monks and rogues and paladins. If you want to survive in overland zones then the change is not a really big deal, I do not have problems running through RoK mobs on my conj in Skyfire, (and prior to RoK, a mad dash to MMC un-invised) really do not see a problem for a monk surviving for 10 secs.As far as glitches surviving for 3 years: melee procs on ranged attacks, procs off double attack, I am sure I am forgetting other fixes that came very late into the game.It is a fact that brawlers can by-pass epic content at will right now, and we do not know what SoE has coming out that might be adversely effected by it. I can see a scenario where this might be considered a game-breaking utility and thus being fixed ahead of time.

Splor

12-11-2007, 06:39 PM

I see several people here posting that people use FD to get around content. I use my Last breath all the time to get around places but if it fails, or i get stunned one time, its usually over, especially in raid zones. If you havent realized already, the new raids zones have it to where you HAVE TO clear everything otherwise the named will call all the trash mobs to them. This might not be the case in all zones, but its a common thing now. Theres also mobs that once they engage anyone, they end up going for the raid force anyways, regardless if you spammed FD or not. The issue has already been dealt with and now that we're out of KoS content, theres things in place that stop the DT jump flop from happening.

Arathy

12-11-2007, 07:15 PM

Or.. to keep us from exploring zones where they don't want us to , they could building their zones better. I hear that doors that require keys can be quite effective.Then again, it's just easier to nerf us again, I guess.Hell, most of the loot in ROK is an exercise in laziness. Look at at. That random diablo-esque junk that drops everywhere.Anyway.. Back to FD. It's not broken, it hasn't been broken, and this is something I'm not taking from our dear devs.

Shotneedle

12-11-2007, 07:26 PM

meh...nvm

Supp

12-11-2007, 07:38 PM

<cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see several people here posting that people use FD to get around content. I use my Last breath all the time to get around places but if it fails, or i get stunned one time, its usually over, especially in raid zones. If you havent realized already, the new raids zones have it to where you HAVE TO clear everything otherwise the named will call all the trash mobs to them. This might not be the case in all zones, but its a common thing now. Theres also mobs that once they engage anyone, they end up going for the raid force anyways, regardless if you spammed FD or not. The issue has already been dealt with and now that we're out of KoS content, theres things in place that stop the DT jump flop from happening.</blockquote>I'd like to detail out how I get around all those problems successfully Splorch, but it seems clear the devs just arent picking this stuff up until somebody brags about it on the boards, so I think I'll keep my bag of tricks to myself. One time in Eve-Online, even though I was playing within the confines of the game, I was able to pull off some pretty crazy stuff that other people couldnt. That's when I got a direct tell from a GM asking how I did that. Ehhh, I had to give it up in that case. His response was "I see, thank you." I enjoyed it while I could before it got nerfed.

CorpseGoddess

12-11-2007, 07:43 PM

ARGH! My main is a level 76 bruiser. I've got about 14 alts, all under 35 except for one, and they're--guess what--a monk. Why? I LOVE my bruiser. I love playing her. And I've put up with not being a desirable toon for groups and raids by mainly soloing or duo-ing with a fury friend of mine. And I've done well. She's much more fun than any other class I've tried, and at this point, I've tried them all. And I keep going back to her. Not sure what the majority does, but it seems to me that a lot of people use FD like I do---as a utility. It's another skill that helps me get around. Much like, oh, I don't know---invis? For people who complain that we're whining---I don't really care what you think. If the majority of brawlers decry this as a negative, it's a negative. We've even got some solidarity from other classes who UNDERSTAND the brawler playing style and mind-set---thanks, you guys. It's nice to know we're not voices crying in the wilderness. This is obviously a nerf maneuvre---I might be a smidge less angry if SOE was at least honest about that instead of, as previously mentioned, being disingenuous and pretending it's all a big happy improvement that will better the lives of everyone! I'm so frustrated right now I can't even get over it.

tt66

12-11-2007, 08:10 PM

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>My friend's paladin runs through re-popped DT just fine also. Whats your point? Nerf awereness next? Lets nerf invis, coth, run speed buffs, stoneskin, and any number of other skills player use to travel or "bypass" content. </blockquote>PPft. Nerf scouts and assassins? Now that's just crazy talk!

Supp

12-11-2007, 08:20 PM

silentpsycho

12-11-2007, 08:31 PM

Heh, you know what? I'd be perfectly fine with this "fix" to FD if they also "fixed" 2 other minor problems with it:1) It should be instant cast and instant re-cast. Like predator's stealth was recently fixed to be. Then you can start the recast timer when ever you want.2) FD should drop you off the hate list completely if successful.

Iari111

12-11-2007, 08:44 PM

<cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lunara@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote>SoE should leave the x to stand up and not change FD to toggle effect to prevent lag from popping FD by accident, I agree. But they should retain timer starting at the moment you cancel FD.FD is "oh crap" spell, not a travel spell. Read the description of the class and ability. It is very sad so many taken a game glitch to be their defining ability. SoE tolerated it for a long time untill now brawlers figured out a way to immune flop through epic zones with zero danger (what is it again? spam fd, keep forward pressed, hit jump?). My guildmate flops through re-popped DT just fine. NO CLASS should be able to move through epics, that is why they all see invis. If brawlers were happy with skipping heroic content, I am sure FD would not have been touched. You have no one else to blame on that one.</blockquote>A game glitch? Can you really call something a glitch that has been in the game for three years? You might be able to do so, but I can't and won't. The "oh crap" that you speak of should refer not to FD but to the fact the brawlers are for all intents and purposes a solo class. Have you not been paying attention? When you see someone asking for either a tank or a dps in the level channels, rest assured they are not asking for a brawler. "Oh crap" is my usual response when I see anything posted about brawlers by a dev because I know there is a good chance the change will not be a favorable one. Some people may use this ability to skirt past epic mobs... fantastic. I use it to survive in the overland zones. Shame on me.</blockquote>I group with monks tanking lots of times, they do great job. Most of tanks in my groups are monks and rogues and paladins. If you want to survive in overland zones then the change is not a really big deal, I do not have problems running through RoK mobs on my conj in Skyfire, (and prior to RoK, a mad dash to MMC un-invised) really do not see a problem for a monk surviving for 10 secs.As far as glitches surviving for 3 years: melee procs on ranged attacks, procs off double attack, I am sure I am forgetting other fixes that came very late into the game.It is a fact that brawlers can by-pass epic content at will right now, and we do not know what SoE has coming out that might be adversely effected by it. I can see a scenario where this might be considered a game-breaking utility and thus being fixed ahead of time.</blockquote>Yes, monks have and do tank. Stranger things have been known to happen. It is, however, far from the norm in my experience. As to your doubt that a monk can have issues surviving for 10 seconds on an overland zone, I suggest you roll a monk and find out for yourself. Make sure you experience the scenario of being in an area crawling with aggro, perhaps two to three mobs on you. I'm not even speaking of running through mobs to bypass content. I'm talking about getting a visit from mob B while fighting mob A. You realize, 'uh oh, I had to use my heal in my last encounter. Not up for another two minutes. I'll FD!' Oops...your FD fails (which btw means that in those few seconds it takes you to realize it failed and you stand up, you get the crap kicked out of you).. then add to that "benefit" of the recast timer not starting until after FD's been canceled. Stand there 10 seconds and let them beat on you some more. Oh and make sure you don't have any fabled gear on so you can be one of the masses. Let us know how it goes.

Lodrelhai

12-11-2007, 09:31 PM

I am going to be hugely unpopular on this issue and say "thank the gods, finally!"And here's my reason: intuitive play.My monk is not my main, or anywhere near being my main. My main is my dirge, and after her I play my mages most - necro, coercer, conjuror. Then the monk (though my assassin may be bumping her position soon). And the current mechanics of this class-defining spell are why I hardly ever use it.In my other classes, if I hit an "oh hell!" ability and it fails for some reason, I hit it again to try again. I got interrupted summoning a limited pet? Cast again. Mez resisted? Cast again. Stunned mid-evac? Hit it again. Mind you, I don't spam them - I hit them once and then queue up something else. If they fail, I hit them only once for each attempt until they take or I decide to run.Here's how it went when I first got feign death on my monk:"Awesome! Class defining ability! No more worry about adds!"::fight mobs for a while, get an add or three too many::"No problem, I'll feign! Wait, why are they still hitting me? It didn't take! Gah! Cancel and try again! i said cancel! WHY AM I STILL LYING DOWN?!?"::cue You Have Died window::"Okay, feign doesn't toggle. Right, now I know - off to fight again!"::fight mobs until I get a bad pull::"Feign! Gah, didn't take! Cancel, cancel! Oh right, have to manually cancel - where's that icon, I'm just gonna run for it. There, canceled - why am I feigning again?!? Oh no, I queued it when I was trying to toggle it off..."::cue You Have Died window::Talking to the monks in our guild (both the main tanks of the guild, and good friends) they confirmed that a) low-level feign death fails a lot and b) it has to be manually canceled. Mind you, neither one ever told me that I could use the sit/stand key to do that - I doubt it occurred to either of them that I might not know about that. And perhaps in EQ1, where using the /sit command actually served an in-game function besides posing, this would more easily link in players minds. But in EQ2, the X key serves NO PURPOSE. Unless, apparently, you feign death. But in my 3 years of playing, this thread is the first time I've heard that I can use the X key to cancel feign death. Since it's not a key that serves me any use whatsoever, it's not one I think of during play - most times, outside of the /camp commands, I forget there's even a /sit action. And I'm sorry, but hitting a key that otherwise does nothing useful to save your hind end in a fight is not simple or intuitive.And so I am probably the only monk above level 20 in-game who doesn't FD. Ever. Quite the class-defining ability there...Making Feign Death a toggled ability brings it in line with every other ability in-game that has to be canceled. Right now there is no indication whatsoever that this ability functions differently from every other on-until-canceled ability in game. Which makes it a very, very unpleasant surprise for players who are trying out a brawler for the first time after having played a Dirge or Guardian or most any other class for a significant time.All that said, I do sympathize with those who do spam the key and/or are facing a major change in play style. For an equitable compromise, what about making Feign Death cancel if the character tries to move, not just sits/stands? Certainly it's a lot more intuitive if Feign Death fails to try running for the hills, and it makes sense that if you try to get up and run, you don't intend to keep lying there. Alternately, if Feign Death fails and mobs are still beating on you, why not stand again automatically. Obviously the feign didn't work, and anyone with a lick of sense wouldn't keep laying there hoping the mobs will suddenly decide it did work and go away.

CorpseGoddess

12-11-2007, 09:38 PM

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am going to be hugely unpopular on this issue and say "thank the gods, finally!"And here's my reason: intuitive play.My monk is not my main, or anywhere near being my main. My main is my dirge, and after her I play my mages most - necro, coercer, conjuror. Then the monk (though my assassin may be bumping her position soon). And the current mechanics of this class-defining spell are why I hardly ever use it.In my other classes, if I hit an "oh hell!" ability and it fails for some reason, I hit it again to try again. I got interrupted summoning a limited pet? Cast again. Mez resisted? Cast again. Stunned mid-evac? Hit it again. Mind you, I don't spam them - I hit them once and then queue up something else. If they fail, I hit them only once for each attempt until they take or I decide to run.Here's how it went when I first got feign death on my monk:"Awesome! Class defining ability! No more worry about adds!"::fight mobs for a while, get an add or three too many::"No problem, I'll feign! Wait, why are they still hitting me? It didn't take! Gah! Cancel and try again! i said cancel! WHY AM I STILL LYING DOWN?!?"::cue You Have Died window::"Okay, feign doesn't toggle. Right, now I know - off to fight again!"::fight mobs until I get a bad pull::"Feign! Gah, didn't take! Cancel, cancel! Oh right, have to manually cancel - where's that icon, I'm just gonna run for it. There, canceled - why am I feigning again?!? Oh no, I queued it when I was trying to toggle it off..."::cue You Have Died window::Talking to the monks in our guild (both the main tanks of the guild, and good friends) they confirmed that a) low-level feign death fails a lot and b) it has to be manually canceled. Mind you, neither one ever told me that I could use the sit/stand key to do that - I doubt it occurred to either of them that I might not know about that. And perhaps in EQ1, where using the /sit command actually served an in-game function besides posing, this would more easily link in players minds. But in EQ2, the X key serves NO PURPOSE. Unless, apparently, you feign death. But in my 3 years of playing, this thread is the first time I've heard that I can use the X key to cancel feign death. Since it's not a key that serves me any use whatsoever, it's not one I think of during play - most times, outside of the /camp commands, I forget there's even a /sit action. And I'm sorry, but hitting a key that otherwise does nothing useful to save your hind end in a fight is not simple or intuitive.And so I am probably the only monk above level 20 in-game who doesn't FD. Ever. Quite the class-defining ability there...Making Feign Death a toggled ability brings it in line with every other ability in-game that has to be canceled. Right now there is no indication whatsoever that this ability functions differently from every other on-until-canceled ability in game. Which makes it a very, very unpleasant surprise for players who are trying out a brawler for the first time after having played a Dirge or Guardian or most any other class for a significant time.All that said, I do sympathize with those who do spam the key and/or are facing a major change in play style. For an equitable compromise, what about making Feign Death cancel if the character tries to move, not just sits/stands? Certainly it's a lot more intuitive if Feign Death fails to try running for the hills, and it makes sense that if you try to get up and run, you don't intend to keep lying there. Alternately, if Feign Death fails and mobs are still beating on you, why not stand again automatically. Obviously the feign didn't work, and anyone with a lick of sense wouldn't keep laying there hoping the mobs will suddenly decide it did work and go away.</blockquote>So we all go to Nerfland because one or two players didn't know how to or never use the skill? Sorry, doesn't wash. That's called "learning to play". Some people eventually get it, some don't. And occasionally, when you're lying there, you need to be able to spin around and see where mobs are and aren't, so you can do something useful, like rez your rezzer. You know, stuff like that. So the "move and up" option doesn't work, either.

Lodrelhai

12-11-2007, 09:48 PM

<cite>CorpseGoddess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So we all go to Nerfland because one or two players didn't know how to or never use the skill? Sorry, doesn't wash. That's called "learning to play". Some people eventually get it, some don't. And occasionally, when you're lying there, you need to be able to spin around and see where mobs are and aren't, so you can do something useful, like rez your rezzer. You know, stuff like that. So the "move and up" option doesn't work, either.</blockquote>Somehow I doubt I am the only person who has had problems with the ability. And I think that's "learning to play this specific class" rather than learning to play in general, as I'm very successful on my other classes. Though I'll grant you, some play styles just aren't compatible with some classes.That still doesn't explain one ability who's basic use is functionally different from every other ability of that sort in-game.As for looking around, left-click and hold lets you look all over the place without your character so much as twitching.

Cusashorn

12-11-2007, 09:51 PM

I PM'ed a dev on the issue. <hr />Thank you GREATLY for bringing that to my attention, Cusashorn! I'll be happy to get some answers and reply to the thread. It seems to be a very balanced argument though, not an issue of one-sided complaint. There's players that are very angry over any such changes (even when they're not nerfs, but simple additions to the ability and one that's only frightening them because they believe such a change will break it) and the other faction of players that are trying to explain that as stated, the change will not effect their gameplay. Like I said, I'll ask around and see why such a change was needed. As with 90% of such changes, it may of simply been due to player request.~Gnobrin! <hr />

CorpseGoddess

12-11-2007, 09:59 PM

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CorpseGoddess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So we all go to Nerfland because one or two players didn't know how to or never use the skill? Sorry, doesn't wash. That's called "learning to play". Some people eventually get it, some don't. And occasionally, when you're lying there, you need to be able to spin around and see where mobs are and aren't, so you can do something useful, like rez your rezzer. You know, stuff like that. So the "move and up" option doesn't work, either.</blockquote>Somehow I doubt I am the only person who has had problems with the ability. And I think that's "learning to play this specific class" rather than learning to play in general, as I'm very successful on my other classes. Though I'll grant you, some play styles just aren't compatible with some classes.That still doesn't explain one ability who's basic use is functionally different from every other ability of that sort in-game.As for looking around, left-click and hold lets you look all over the place without your character so much as twitching.</blockquote>Yeah, but what if you never "learned" the left-click trick? Then it's not fair! Then that means SOME players get to look around them while others don't! Let's get rid of the left-click! You see how silly this all is? They should just leave well-enough alone.

Lodrelhai

12-11-2007, 10:30 PM

<cite>CorpseGoddess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CorpseGoddess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So we all go to Nerfland because one or two players didn't know how to or never use the skill? Sorry, doesn't wash. That's called "learning to play". Some people eventually get it, some don't. And occasionally, when you're lying there, you need to be able to spin around and see where mobs are and aren't, so you can do something useful, like rez your rezzer. You know, stuff like that. So the "move and up" option doesn't work, either.</blockquote>Somehow I doubt I am the only person who has had problems with the ability. And I think that's "learning to play this specific class" rather than learning to play in general, as I'm very successful on my other classes. Though I'll grant you, some play styles just aren't compatible with some classes.That still doesn't explain one ability who's basic use is functionally different from every other ability of that sort in-game.As for looking around, left-click and hold lets you look all over the place without your character so much as twitching.</blockquote>Yeah, but what if you never "learned" the left-click trick? Then it's not fair! Then that means SOME players get to look around them while others don't! Let's get rid of the left-click! You see how silly this all is? They should just leave well-enough alone.</blockquote>The difference there is that the left-click trick is something players are likely to learn to do in a variety of situations, including trying to see around a corner to spot a mob, getting screen shots which include a view of their character besides their [Removed for Content], fighting or running from a mob and checking if any more are coming up behind them, and if they've actually died and are deciding if they should ask a friend for a rez or if the mob grouping is too tight for the healer to get there safely/for them to get rezzed and get out safely.The Sit key serves no useful in-game purpose besides this. It's not even an application people are likely to discover by accident. It's not intuitive in any way, shape, or form.While well-enough alone might be acceptable, I doubt that's going to happen any more than they're going to take those awful two-second timers off widgets or remove the inane guild-level restriction to get guild credit for relics. And on a personal level, yes, I prefer the toggle option. I'm hoping to find a mid-ground that will accomplish whatever it is Sony's trying to accomplish with this without completely ticking off a major portion of its player base.

Strade

12-11-2007, 11:51 PM

Cusashorn

12-11-2007, 11:54 PM

bad news everyone.<hr />I've chatted with one of the developers that had their hand in that, and they're intentionally leaving their word out of that issue since it's the same folks raising a stink over that change, a change that was intentional and called for by "on high". ~Gnobrin! <hr />

CorpseGoddess

12-12-2007, 01:14 AM

<cite>Gazzie@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CorpseGoddess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CorpseGoddess wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So we all go to Nerfland because one or two players didn't know how to or never use the skill? Sorry, doesn't wash. That's called "learning to play". Some people eventually get it, some don't. And occasionally, when you're lying there, you need to be able to spin around and see where mobs are and aren't, so you can do something useful, like rez your rezzer. You know, stuff like that. So the "move and up" option doesn't work, either.</blockquote>Somehow I doubt I am the only person who has had problems with the ability. And I think that's "learning to play this specific class" rather than learning to play in general, as I'm very successful on my other classes. Though I'll grant you, some play styles just aren't compatible with some classes.That still doesn't explain one ability who's basic use is functionally different from every other ability of that sort in-game.As for looking around, left-click and hold lets you look all over the place without your character so much as twitching.</blockquote>Yeah, but what if you never "learned" the left-click trick? Then it's not fair! Then that means SOME players get to look around them while others don't! Let's get rid of the left-click! You see how silly this all is? They should just leave well-enough alone.</blockquote>wait ... your telling other people to learn how to play ... but you do not know how to turn the camera with the mouse ????awww ... what a strange topic. This change will be welcome by my monk. A lot more intuitive to clic to cancel imo.</blockquote>Never said that. When I didn't mention that option, just talking about the "asdw" buttons, the person assumed I didn't know and added that. My response was pure sarcasm.

githyanki

12-12-2007, 01:21 AM

Ok so who [Removed for Content] off the devs anyways? Feign death is one of the cool little perks that monks get that actually works in a usefull fashion. By making it a toggle button now and adding a recast after you cancel you are hurting the classes ability to do what they do well. Yes i know monks can tank in some situations given you have a gifted healer in your group. And yes monks can do dps like a drunk mage at the keyboard but the class that does nothing great except falling down when they like for whatever reason gets shafted. Here is a novel idea instead of fing with everybodies toon just look for the people that where doing the harvesting cheat. I mean comeon everybody knew about it and only if you broke the eula would you do it in the first place. So now besides beating my head against the wall with a ok at everything ...crap at any one thing. I'll trade ya....i'll keep paying for my account and take the fing nerf here for this one thing.....if the devs fix monk aa's to be inline with other tank classes. Oh and avoidance tanking...and dps.... and... and... Then if my guild isn't on i can find a pick up group with my monk and be some kind of usefull.

WackyDakky

12-12-2007, 01:36 AM

jrolla777

12-12-2007, 01:44 AM

Why do your update notes insinuate that this change is beneficial to players? you have emotes that come on screen when you try to cast a spell on a wall/transport(griffon, carpet). Why dont you add a simple emote to tell the player to stand up because they are feigned? oh yeah, b/c thats bologna Why mask a nerf with false statements liek this. its rather insulting, sony. You understand that making FD toggeable will cause brawlers to die more often solo, grouped, and in raids. be sure to fix the lag so we don't have to spam the FD hotkey, our avoidance, brawler/monk AA's, Devastation Fist stifles on fail, etc. too ok ? or does none of my concerns matter b/c i'm 'raising a stink'

Lortet

12-12-2007, 04:29 AM

Caelen

12-12-2007, 05:15 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>bad news everyone.I've chatted with one of the developers that had their hand in that, and they're intentionally leaving their word out of that issue since it's the same folks raising a stink over that change, a change that was intentional and called for by "on high". ~Gnobrin! </blockquote>The same people? Well count me as a new voice in opposition to this unneeded change. I've got a bruiser that's nearly 60 now and he's been around for quite some time so I'm not anyone new to the brawler scene. I have, however, sat back and watched while we brawlers are continually beat into a mushy, useless pulp by anonymous devs who refuse to grow a backbone and face the players who are affected by these changes. I, along with numerous other people, want and deserve some answers. And you know what, even if it's the same people who are "raising a stink" what do you think that tells you? It would seem to me that the problem is far from being solved. We aren't voicing our opinions to stick a thorn in your side, we're trying to get some REAL balance, and real fairness to OUR characters that we PAY to play. If you're going to make sweeping changes that were "called for on high" then at least have the decency to communicate with your player base. The lack of respect towards us leaves a real bad taste in my mouth. Way to completely isolate a group of people asking for some communication. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Arathy

12-12-2007, 08:30 AM

Time to roll a swashie.

MrWolfie

12-12-2007, 08:47 AM

New voice: No change to Feign Death.Be warned, this will cause complaint, cancellations and may even lead to organised protests in game.

smokedout

12-12-2007, 08:48 AM

If its nots broken dont try too fix it... FD is Fine the way it is, go messin around with that and you are gona have a lot of angry folks

Grimdeath

12-12-2007, 09:17 AM

I'd like to add my support to the seemingly rather large group that are against this change to feign death.Feign Death is actually one of the few things that actually still work in this game, and it works quite well.For SOE to change this without any real reason or logic is disappointing to say the least.This will affect every class that has feign death in their repertoire and as many others have said already, SOE you are going to lose subscriptions, you are proactively p!ssing off your playerbase and for a company that is wanting to take a more "casual"-gamer stance with this game, you are going the wrong way about it (in other words, an annoyed or angry community will turn away new subscribers, not bring more people to it). I don't think the "casual gamer" would be happy with this either.I've experienced my fair share of bugs in the last few weeks, some game breaking -like everyone else, it seems- and if GU41 was about fixing those bugs instead of this stupid, unneeded nerf to a skill that worked and has worked since this game was released then you wouldn't be seeing threads like this and raising the ire of your subscribers.I was speaking to fellow guild-members today about this coming change and even people that play classes that do not have FD disagree with this <strike>change</strike> nerf too.SOE, stop this <strike>change</strike> nerf from going live. The Bruiser class will be long forgotten otherwise.

kartikeya

12-12-2007, 09:36 AM

Good grief, people.I completely understand why you're angry, especially with all the other problems with brawlers, and all the other problems with the game period, but if you're going to harp on the devs for not being honest, don't twiddle around and pretend like this 'class defining feature' hasn't been abused out the freaking wazoo by everyone and their dog. It's fun, it's convenient, it gets you lots of money and some updates that other classes would need a group, sometimes an entire raid to accomplish, it lets you see stuff no one else would ever dream of trying to see on their own, and it's very, very cheesey and very obviously not the originally intended function of the ability (much like FD pulling in EQ1). And no, it doesn't take any skill, it takes the RNG not hating you. All of that said, I EMPATHIZE. I know what it's like to have the rug pulled out from under you on a mechanic that was cheesey but nevertheless extremely important to your class and how it functioned *cough*meleeweaponprocsonbows*coughcoughcough*. On the bright side, at least a dev hasn't called you all exploiters yet, and folks haven't begun to pop up en masse to tell you that you should have peered into the future and KNOWN that this would be changed. Has anyone shown up to say the old 'this is not a NERF it's a BUG fix' line yet? As a side note though, comparing FD to invis or stealth is apples and oranges. Grab a stealth or invis totem sometime and try to run through, oh, just about any dungeon in existance from T6 onward. Double points for trying any raid zone. Heck, just take a look at how many see invis mobs the RoK overland zones have (though at least most of them make some sort of sense, generally being scout mobs). Monks don't even need to grab a totem, just fire up your own invis--anything that sees through that will also see through scout stealth. I wish they were comparable, but the truth is scouts haven't been able to 'scout' any kind of group content for years now. And I dunno if I misread the guy or not, but uh...no, stealth is not insta-recast, nor does the cooldown begin until after stealth has been dropped (that would be nice!). Stealth is pretty much exactly like how they're looking to change FD to, from my understanding. A toggle that doesn't refresh until it's toggled off.Dear Devs: If you're looking to kill feign flopping, keep in mind all the OTHER issues that go along with if it's 'killed' in this way. Top of the list: getting 'stuck' under a mob that's not attacking you but won't leave you alone. This happens on climbing walls too, and it's really annoying. Happened to me tonight with a few guards--feigned successfully, guards sat on my 'dead' body and had a picnic or something, they would NOT move, which is essentially not a death saver, but a death delayer.

KBern

12-12-2007, 10:19 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>bad news everyone.<hr />I've chatted with one of the developers that had their hand in that, and they're intentionally leaving their word out of that issue since it's the same folks raising a stink over that change, a change that was intentional and called for by "on high". ~Gnobrin! <hr /></blockquote>What kind of freaking answer is that? What does this mean, "and they are intentionally leaving their word out of that issue since it's the same folks raising a stink over that change..."What kind of convoluted politician nonsense is that? The devs are raising a stink? The players? We are raising a stink because we want an answer.It needs an explanation, not some BS freakin answer from a company marquee.

Siatfallen

12-12-2007, 10:34 AM

Random thought: Apparently, there is now a item set in the game, for brawlers, that on six pieces add AE avoidance to FD (50% chance, but still). This might be the reason for the introduction of the reuse timers - if they are going to make FDing useful for something as signifigant as that, compared to what it has been so far, well, they'll want to nerf it elsewhere.If that's the reason, though, that's pretty weak. We're talking about a six-piece leather armour set bonus here. Add this feature to FD in general, and we're talking.Otherwise: Meh. This change sucksalot. I understand the necessity of it, I'm tired to seeing brawlers farm heroic zones by FDing through it as well, at least now it will take a modicum of routine to know just where to FD while doing that. Okay, so we can no longer FD through epic zones, big deal really (though I will miss paying a visit to vyvy and getting away with it). As for survival when FDing, I guess we will have to get used to look around for a FD safespot ahead of time - it's a change, we'll cope I guess, where finding such a spot is possible in the first place.What really sucks about this nerf is the weakness of the brawler class in the first place. While I appreciate the new toy we got (raidwide buffness) we have been given an effectively useless level 80 skill for raiding on both brawler classes (though possibly nice for group content) - the mobs in the new raid zones are apparently problematic because they may more or less one-shot guardian main tanks, but look! We can pull aggro now! Joy...Add the problems of itemization for the class, and this does not look pretty.By all means, keep this change. I'll not like it, but I understand it. What's being taken offense at here is, I think, not this single nerf, but the fact that all you seem to be able to get around to doing with the brawler class is nerfing it. Do something about the issues of the class. They are numerous and several other threads are devoted to them.I was going to shut uåp about this change, but the comment on "people raising a stink" in Gnorbin's PM, I'll not sit idle by. The stink is there for a reason - because you left the problem to rot for far too long. That usually becomes a smelly situation.As for the FD abilities of other classes... I'm clueless.

kyrr

12-12-2007, 10:54 AM

Hmmm. No Daze in '08 worked for troubs. Mebbe we need a catchy slogan for everyone to add to their sigs and such so SoE can see that maybe it isn't just brawlers upset about this. (I don't have one and I think this is a pointless change.)Here's a refreshing idea:Devs get to work on the crap that's broken!!! Gimme healer CHAIN that a MYSTIC would WANT to wear!!! (Not scout gear I add a +Wis adornment to!) FIX MY SET GEAR!!! Make it so I can zone in a reasonable amount of time instead of doing laundry while I wait! FIX BUTTON LAG!!Oh and for those of you sayin it's so they can't get blue shinies? I know a WIZZIE that goes deep into seb every day to get them and sell them. Sure he's got like 20-30% xp debt but who cares when you make a profit off those deaths and you're 80?? Brawlers aren't the only ones that can get them solo. (That doesn't mean nerf all the classes that can <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> . ) I have to say that except for Domino (hugs!!) the devs have made me a very sad kitty w/this expansion. What kind of lazy do you have to be to say "Oh well all healers can wear leather so I'm just gonna make that. What brawlers wear leather too? They can wear the same stuff the healers do! Sweet! Where'd my "Easy" button go? Hey guys? Anyone seen my "Easy" button?" *Spends the next 11 months looking for said button*.

Kaleyen

12-12-2007, 11:14 AM

I've been playing the Everquest games since the release of Kunark in EQ1, that right there some customer loyalty. All I ask in return is a response to this issue that the devs felt they needed to put in.

Obadiah

12-12-2007, 12:08 PM

I don't want to get into the timer issue too heavily. As one with a Necro, when the timer restarts is kind of a moot point for me. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> BUT . . . toggle-able plus lag = death. They've got to be able to do their dirty "no-blue-shiny-for-you" recast timer change without altering that?!?! RIGHT!?!?! That's just brutal. I suggest petitioning for debt removal and cost-of-repair compensation every time you die because of an inadvertent toggle.

pebyr

12-12-2007, 12:35 PM

live update 95. After continued nerfings, shaman's and clerics emerge as the new dps gods. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Supp

12-12-2007, 12:50 PM

<cite>pebyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>live update 95. After continued nerfings, shaman's and clerics emerge as the new dps gods. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Of course, we're into LU13 of EQ3 at that time, IF there is an EQ3 <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Rarlin

12-12-2007, 12:53 PM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good grief, people.I completely understand why you're angry, especially with all the other problems with brawlers, and all the other problems with the game period, but if you're going to harp on the devs for not being honest, don't twiddle around and pretend like this 'class defining feature' hasn't been abused out the freaking wazoo by everyone and their dog. It's fun, it's convenient, it gets you lots of money and some updates that other classes would need a group, sometimes an entire raid to accomplish, it lets you see stuff no one else would ever dream of trying to see on their own, and it's very, very cheesey and very obviously not the originally intended function of the ability (much like FD pulling in EQ1). And no, it doesn't take any skill, it takes the RNG not hating you. All of that said, I EMPATHIZE. I know what it's like to have the rug pulled out from under you on a mechanic that was cheesey but nevertheless extremely important to your class and how it functioned *cough*meleeweaponprocsonbows*coughcoughcough*. On the bright side, at least a dev hasn't called you all exploiters yet, and folks haven't begun to pop up en masse to tell you that you should have peered into the future and KNOWN that this would be changed. Has anyone shown up to say the old 'this is not a NERF it's a BUG fix' line yet? As a side note though, comparing FD to invis or stealth is apples and oranges. Grab a stealth or invis totem sometime and try to run through, oh, just about any dungeon in existance from T6 onward. Double points for trying any raid zone. Heck, just take a look at how many see invis mobs the RoK overland zones have (though at least most of them make some sort of sense, generally being scout mobs). Monks don't even need to grab a totem, just fire up your own invis--anything that sees through that will also see through scout stealth. I wish they were comparable, but the truth is scouts haven't been able to 'scout' any kind of group content for years now. And I dunno if I misread the guy or not, but uh...no, stealth is not insta-recast, nor does the cooldown begin until after stealth has been dropped (that would be nice!). Stealth is pretty much exactly like how they're looking to change FD to, from my understanding. A toggle that doesn't refresh until it's toggled off.Dear Devs: If you're looking to kill feign flopping, keep in mind all the OTHER issues that go along with if it's 'killed' in this way. Top of the list: getting 'stuck' under a mob that's not attacking you but won't leave you alone. This happens on climbing walls too, and it's really annoying. Happened to me tonight with a few guards--feigned successfully, guards sat on my 'dead' body and had a picnic or something, they would NOT move, which is essentially not a death saver, but a death delayer. </blockquote>/agree

EvilAstroboy

12-12-2007, 12:55 PM

There has always been an easy toggle for feign death, its the 'x' button. Anyone who has ever partied with a SK or Bruiser should know this. Put up a message if you need to.

kartikeya

12-12-2007, 01:08 PM

<cite>Kaleyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been playing the Everquest games since the release of Kunark in EQ1, that right there some customer loyalty. All I ask in return is a response to this issue that the devs felt they needed to put in.</blockquote>Amen to this. I'll say one thing on this issue: devs, you're not dumb, you're well aware this would get people's hackles up. I don't know if that was poor wording or what, but if you're going to go about making changes that will upset people, as nerfs do, and as is inevitable in MMOs, at least be willing to make an official comment on the matter. Heck, even if it's just a flowery version of 'Not changing it, sorry, brawlers were getting too many platz', it would at least be better than acting surprised and snarky about people--shock of all shocks--getting het up about a big nerf.Obviously devs can't respond to every single little issue that comes up, but the big huge ones that go for pages and pages and pages and pages really could stand a simple 'hey, we're aware of this', even if the response is not what the posters are hoping for. I'll jump on the Domino bandwagon too--whether or not her answers are the ones people want or not, the fact that she responds, and in a manner that shows she cares about the issue even if she doesn't agree with stated opinions or intend to make any changes--has had an amazing, amazingly positive response from the playerbase as a whole. Remember, we all whine and moan so much about every perceived issue precisely because we really like this game. If we didn't, I'd sure hope we wouldn't spend nearly so much time talking on message boards about it.

Meribor

12-12-2007, 01:08 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>bad news everyone.<hr />I've chatted with one of the developers that had their hand in that, and they're intentionally leaving their word out of that issue since it's the same folks raising a stink over that change, a change that was intentional and called for by "on high". ~Gnobrin! <hr /></blockquote>Adding my voice to those raising a stink over that change and I've never griped about a nerf before. So it's not just the same folks disgruntled by this change. I recently created a bruiser on Test to see if liked the class, but didn't expect to have to be running away from mobs I've [Removed for Content] off like some of the other classes I play.

volx

12-12-2007, 01:12 PM

The real reason for this change -- the devs completely missed the consequences of adding the reverse-CoH tinkered item into the game and also reducing the normal CoH reuse timer down to 2-minutes (BIG MISTAKE BY THE WAY) in which case a brawler/conjurer team can now bypass enormous amounts of content not just for the brawler, but your entire raid.... Not that this change solves that problem at all, it just makes it more difficult to accomplish. I for one will likely go back to playing my templar or just delete my accounts all together -- monks got nerfed to death in EQ1 and now in EQ2 too.

Brato Trelane

12-12-2007, 01:28 PM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Random thought: Apparently, there is now a item set in the game, for brawlers, that on six pieces add AE avoidance to FD (50% chance, but still). This might be the reason for the introduction of the reuse timers - if they are going to make FDing useful for something as signifigant as that, compared to what it has been so far, well, they'll want to nerf it elsewhere.If that's the reason, though, that's pretty weak. We're talking about a six-piece leather armour set bonus here. Add this feature to FD in general, and we're talking.Otherwise: Meh. This change sucksalot. I understand the necessity of it, I'm tired to seeing brawlers farm heroic zones by FDing through it as well, at least now it will take a modicum of routine to know just where to FD while doing that. Okay, so we can no longer FD through epic zones, big deal really (though I will miss paying a visit to vyvy and getting away with it). As for survival when FDing, I guess we will have to get used to look around for a FD safespot ahead of time - it's a change, we'll cope I guess, where finding such a spot is possible in the first place.What really sucks about this nerf is the weakness of the brawler class in the first place. While I appreciate the new toy we got (raidwide buffness) we have been given an effectively useless level 80 skill for raiding on both brawler classes (though possibly nice for group content) - the mobs in the new raid zones are apparently problematic because they may more or less one-shot guardian main tanks, but look! We can pull aggro now! Joy...Add the problems of itemization for the class, and this does not look pretty.By all means, keep this change. I'll not like it, but I understand it. What's being taken offense at here is, I think, not this single nerf, but the fact that all you seem to be able to get around to doing with the brawler class is nerfing it. Do something about the issues of the class. They are numerous and several other threads are devoted to them.I was going to shut uåp about this change, but the comment on "people raising a stink" in Gnorbin's PM, I'll not sit idle by. The stink is there for a reason - because you left the problem to rot for far too long. That usually becomes a smelly situation.As for the FD abilities of other classes... I'm clueless.</blockquote>Tired of brawlers FDing thru zone!?!?! Im tired of watching scouts solo clueless yellow heroic Named encounters by running around in circles. Im tired of greencon mobs total disregard for brawler avoidance while laughing at brawler mitigation when they beat the crap out us. Of all the things in this game that need serious attention, screwing yet again with the brawler class is not it.

kartikeya

12-12-2007, 01:30 PM

Ow, my eyes. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

TheSpin

12-12-2007, 01:33 PM

This was done to prevent a very specific exploit, or perhaps a combination of exploits.

JonnyBlaaze

12-12-2007, 02:02 PM

<cite>Brato Trelane wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im tired of greencon mobs total disregard for brawler avoidance while laughing at brawler mitigation when they beat the crap out us. Of all the things in this game that need serious attention, screwing yet again with the brawler class is not it.</blockquote>Aint that the truth.. Whos dick needs to get sucked for us to get a response from a dev here?

grish

12-12-2007, 02:25 PM

Leave FD Alone!!! This change is stupid.

Obadiah

12-12-2007, 02:29 PM

Too late. Is changed, or will be when the servers come back up.Maybe this was a smokescreen to distract us from the continued lack of epic weapon quest lines. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Denlron

12-12-2007, 02:33 PM

<cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good grief, people.I completely understand why you're angry, especially with all the other problems with brawlers, and all the other problems with the game period, but if you're going to harp on the devs for not being honest, don't twiddle around and pretend like this 'class defining feature' hasn't been abused out the freaking wazoo by everyone and their dog. It's fun, it's convenient, it gets you lots of money and some updates that other classes would need a group, sometimes an entire raid to accomplish, it lets you see stuff no one else would ever dream of trying to see on their own, and it's very, very cheesey and very obviously not the originally intended function of the ability (much like FD pulling in EQ1). And no, it doesn't take any skill, it takes the RNG not hating you. All of that said, I EMPATHIZE. I know what it's like to have the rug pulled out from under you on a mechanic that was cheesey but nevertheless extremely important to your class and how it functioned *cough*meleeweaponprocsonbows*coughcoughcough*. On the bright side, at least a dev hasn't called you all exploiters yet, and folks haven't begun to pop up en masse to tell you that you should have peered into the future and KNOWN that this would be changed. Has anyone shown up to say the old 'this is not a NERF it's a BUG fix' line yet? As a side note though, comparing FD to invis or stealth is apples and oranges. Grab a stealth or invis totem sometime and try to run through, oh, just about any dungeon in existance from T6 onward. Double points for trying any raid zone. Heck, just take a look at how many see invis mobs the RoK overland zones have (though at least most of them make some sort of sense, generally being scout mobs). Monks don't even need to grab a totem, just fire up your own invis--anything that sees through that will also see through scout stealth. I wish they were comparable, but the truth is scouts haven't been able to 'scout' any kind of group content for years now. And I dunno if I misread the guy or not, but uh...no, stealth is not insta-recast, nor does the cooldown begin until after stealth has been dropped (that would be nice!). Stealth is pretty much exactly like how they're looking to change FD to, from my understanding. A toggle that doesn't refresh until it's toggled off.Dear Devs: If you're looking to kill feign flopping, keep in mind all the OTHER issues that go along with if it's 'killed' in this way. Top of the list: getting 'stuck' under a mob that's not attacking you but won't leave you alone. This happens on climbing walls too, and it's really annoying. Happened to me tonight with a few guards--feigned successfully, guards sat on my 'dead' body and had a picnic or something, they would NOT move, which is essentially not a death saver, but a death delayer. </blockquote>/agree</blockquote>You sirs are both Morons with no understanding of Brawlers, game mechanics, or what you are talking about.

Kaleyen

12-12-2007, 02:36 PM

This goes to show how much SOE listens to their customers...not even enough to even comment on it.Communication goes a long ways, and grats on breaking the Brawler class with one of their class defining abilities.

KBern

12-12-2007, 02:42 PM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>This was done to prevent a very specific exploit, or perhaps a combination of exploits.</blockquote>Then they need to fix the exploit, not harm an ability that 4 classes have.

KBern

12-12-2007, 02:54 PM

The patch notes show this has gone live today.I am trying so hard to be polite here to the devs and I am not sure why. The total lack of communication, [I cannot control my vocabulary] way they tried to smooth this by with the wording in the patch notes, and [I cannot control my vocabulary] CS is more of a slap in the face to loyal customers than the change itself.

etch666

12-12-2007, 03:04 PM

So it seems there is nothing we can do...All I will do is wait and see if we get a boost to -anything- to make us more of a wanted class in groups / raids, if not this class is dead and I feel sorry for anyone who has played a brawler since the beginning like me.Demote this class to a roleplay / tradekill only class or a backup heroic tank incase no one can find a plate tank LFG....actually wont be good for RP as other classes can wear our gi's and class hats now, oh well.

Gnobrin

12-12-2007, 03:41 PM

FYI!The Feign Death changes brought about in GU41 shall be reverted in update on 12/13/07. ~Gnobrin!

Kaleyen

12-12-2007, 03:43 PM

Thank you Gnobrin

Meribor

12-12-2007, 03:44 PM

This calls for the Merriam-Webster Dictionary's Word of the Year for 2007: w00t !!!!!Edited for spelling <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Cusashorn

12-12-2007, 03:45 PM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI!The Feign Death changes brought about in GU41 shall be reverted in update on 12/13/07. ~Gnobrin!</blockquote>ALL HAIL GNOBRIN! DEFLECTOR OF THE APOCALYPSE!

KBern

12-12-2007, 03:55 PM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI!The Feign Death changes brought about in GU41 shall be reverted in update on 12/13/07. ~Gnobrin!</blockquote>Thank you very much for letting us know.

Junaru

12-12-2007, 04:00 PM

Hehe I just saw this and was posting it here.. You beat me too it.Thank you very much.

CorpseGoddess

12-12-2007, 04:12 PM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI!The Feign Death changes brought about in GU41 shall be reverted in update on 12/13/07. ~Gnobrin!</blockquote>Yes, Virginia....there is a Santa Claus.Thanks for the info, Gnobrin.

kartikeya

12-12-2007, 04:20 PM

<cite>Denlron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good grief, people.I completely understand why you're angry, especially with all the other problems with brawlers, and all the other problems with the game period, but if you're going to harp on the devs for not being honest, don't twiddle around and pretend like this 'class defining feature' hasn't been abused out the freaking wazoo by everyone and their dog. It's fun, it's convenient, it gets you lots of money and some updates that other classes would need a group, sometimes an entire raid to accomplish, it lets you see stuff no one else would ever dream of trying to see on their own, and it's very, very cheesey and very obviously not the originally intended function of the ability (much like FD pulling in EQ1). And no, it doesn't take any skill, it takes the RNG not hating you. All of that said, I EMPATHIZE. I know what it's like to have the rug pulled out from under you on a mechanic that was cheesey but nevertheless extremely important to your class and how it functioned *cough*meleeweaponprocsonbows*coughcoughcough*. On the bright side, at least a dev hasn't called you all exploiters yet, and folks haven't begun to pop up en masse to tell you that you should have peered into the future and KNOWN that this would be changed. Has anyone shown up to say the old 'this is not a NERF it's a BUG fix' line yet? As a side note though, comparing FD to invis or stealth is apples and oranges. Grab a stealth or invis totem sometime and try to run through, oh, just about any dungeon in existance from T6 onward. Double points for trying any raid zone. Heck, just take a look at how many see invis mobs the RoK overland zones have (though at least most of them make some sort of sense, generally being scout mobs). Monks don't even need to grab a totem, just fire up your own invis--anything that sees through that will also see through scout stealth. I wish they were comparable, but the truth is scouts haven't been able to 'scout' any kind of group content for years now. And I dunno if I misread the guy or not, but uh...no, stealth is not insta-recast, nor does the cooldown begin until after stealth has been dropped (that would be nice!). Stealth is pretty much exactly like how they're looking to change FD to, from my understanding. A toggle that doesn't refresh until it's toggled off.Dear Devs: If you're looking to kill feign flopping, keep in mind all the OTHER issues that go along with if it's 'killed' in this way. Top of the list: getting 'stuck' under a mob that's not attacking you but won't leave you alone. This happens on climbing walls too, and it's really annoying. Happened to me tonight with a few guards--feigned successfully, guards sat on my 'dead' body and had a picnic or something, they would NOT move, which is essentially not a death saver, but a death delayer. </blockquote>/agree</blockquote>You sirs are both Morons with no understanding of Brawlers, game mechanics, or what you are talking about.</blockquote>Yeah, so I'm thinking you didn't read anything I wrote there. *claps*

Corydonn

12-12-2007, 04:25 PM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>FYI!The Feign Death changes brought about in GU41 shall be reverted in update on 12/13/07. ~Gnobrin!</blockquote>Hallelujah!

MrWolfie

12-12-2007, 05:02 PM

Good.

Beogon

12-12-2007, 05:20 PM

Account uncanceled =)

Supp

12-12-2007, 05:29 PM

I'm glad to hear this news, but at the same time I'm lukewarm to it for some reason. I guess seeing this nerf provided for me the final justification for the cancellation of my both of my accounts. I was originally going to wait a couple of months before cancellation to verify things were as bad as I thought, but this nerf seemed to provide that verification right away. There are a sea of other problems that concern me, but this FD nerf and Fyreflight's insistance that chain and plate healers are intended to wear leather solidified any doubt that this game was on a downward spiral that I didnt want to participate in anymore. An "it was fun while it lasted" situation if you will. But now I dont know what to think. Are they picking up the game's pieces? There seemed to be a reliable rumor that SOE execs specifically wanted this nerf. That sounded pretty dire to me, granted that's an alleged statement. I have seen one 30 to 50 page thread after another by brawlers begging for something to be changed or fixed, with nary a developer response. For this one to be fixed so expediently even though it was specifically requested by "on high", I am really really really suprised. Could this herald the dawn of brawler forum consideration? Could there have been another reason why they conceeded? I won't be so conceited as to propose my account cancellations along with two others in this thread affected their decision. Did 500 accounts get cancelled in the last 2 days? Is it possible that Domino rolled a brawler and said "ahem?". I'll have to keep an eye on things.

CorpseGoddess

12-12-2007, 05:47 PM

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm glad to hear this news, but at the same time I'm lukewarm to it for some reason. I guess seeing this nerf provided for me the final justification for the cancellation of my both of my accounts. I was originally going to wait a couple of months before cancellation to verify things were as bad as I thought, but nerf seemed to provide that verification right away. There are a sea of other problems that concern me, but this FD nerf and Fyreflight's insistance that chain and plate healers are intended to wear leather solidified any doubt that this game was on a downward spiral that I didnt want to participate in anymore. An "it was fun while it lasted" situation if you will. But now I dont know what to think. Are they picking up the game's pieces? There seemed to be a reliable rumor that SOE execs specifically wanted this nerf. That sounded pretty dire to me, granted that's an alleged statement. I have seen one 30 to 50 page thread after another by brawlers begging for something to be changed or fixed, with nary a developer response. For this one to be fixed so expediently even though it was specifically requested by "on high", I am really really really suprised. Could this herald the dawn of brawler forum consideration? Could there have been another reason why they conceeded? I won't be conceited as to propose my account cancellations along with two others in this thread affected their decision. Is it possible that Domino rolled a brawler and said "ahem?". I'll have to keep an eye on things.</blockquote>I have to say I agree with you completely. Also, my first thought honestly was "Yeah! Let's keep steamrolling and try and get some of the *other* issues addressed now!". But I figured that would come off as ungrateful, although why I should be grateful for having something returned that never should have been taken in the first place, I don't know. I'm feeling a bit like Benson in "Time Bandits", grovelling for a bit of attention from the Supreme Evil. "Kill me, master! Kill *me*!"

Timaarit

12-12-2007, 06:18 PM

I had thought about canceling after I got my monk to 80 and saw that there really isn't any piece of gear that would have made me go after it with enthusiasm. The fact that they even thought about further nerfing brawlers like this pushed me over. There are other issues like a guardian out-DPSing my monk on raids with [Removed for Content] quested chain DPS-item pieces.I am not going to renew my subscription until they have fixed brawlers and prowed that they think other classes besides the ones they play themselves. The monk t4 raidzone weapon Fyreflyte is advertising in another forums is a great example. That dev is actually so incompetent or ignorant that he thinks the weapon is good for what it is. If they really have no clue as for how and no desire to make separate brawler weapons, then they should just copy a scout weapon, make it crushing, change any to hit bonuses as crushing and then give it some random brawler weapon look. That kind of lack of imagination would be far better than what they currently present. The trend for lack of brawler weapons/gear has been visible ever since Fallen Dynasty. EoF was a disaster for a raiding monk, the legendary armor set was great for a brawler but the fabled set was for soloers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />. I lost interest on raiding because there really wasn't anything beyond the chestpiece I wanted for my monk untill they changed it so that Mayongs Hammer could be DW'd.I just hope they dont feel like brawlers should be grateful for them not nerfing brawlers even further.Anyway, I doubt I'll be back unless something major happens in the staff of EQ2 devs and they actually start developing all the classes equally.

Supp

12-12-2007, 07:48 PM

Oh dont get me wrong Timaarit. My plan is still to cancel my accounts, but I wont do it instantly now in a huff. As I said before, this nerf was icing on the cake for me. My main became my necro after enough brawler nerfing swept the game (I especially loved the one where they took away my dps buff. I swear if it werent for Close Mind I would have switched back to Monk long ago). But my brawler is still important to me to make money and assist my other characters. Again, my main issue is the lack of low T8 group instances, and this forced solo questing business. It's just that with none of these instances ingame and now no shiny farming, I was guaranteed to be poor again. And I simply could not have that, not after all the lovins Ive given this game. Right now, my plan is to see if for some reason I start enjoying the long hours of raiding to acquire gear that I wont make proper use of outside of raid. I'll doubt that'll happen though, so that's why cancellation still looms in the near future.Pretty much, it seemed something like this...EQ2 Dev Exec: Ok boys (and girls), the plan for Kunark is to ensure that Supple is poor. Ideas?Dev Scrub 1: Well, he makes his money from soloing the Nest and Acadechism on multiple characters. We should have no equivalent in Kunark! Make sure all instances are high level and filled with triple ups! Dev Scrub 2: And make as much notrade as possible!EQ2 Dev Exec: Good idea, I can roll with that!Dev Scrub 3: But WAIT!!(Dev Team stares quizzically at Dev Scrub 3)Dev Scrub 3: If we do nix the low T8 instances AND nerf XP grinding, we'll have to put in a ton of solo questing, maybe all the way to 80!(Dev Team ponders this for a moment, but then remembers that creating quests is someone else's job!)EQ2 Dev Exec: Ok, let's do it!----- Kunark launches and Supple is angered ! ----------- Supple then whips out the old brawler standby, wrestling 100p in shinies via feigning his way through Sebilis -----(Dev Team reconvenes to discover the error in judgment)EQ2 Dev Exec: Ok boys (and girls), what happened? Someone's gonna pay for this and it's not gonna be me!Dev Scrub 1: Wait! This only happened because his benched brawler could FD so effectively through Sebilis and knows how to play the market.Dev Scrub 2: Um, excuse me? I was VERY careful to thickly FILL Sebilis with roaming ^^^s. AND I made many of the shiney spawn locations appear right at the feet of said ^^^s. It's not my fault.EQ2 Dev Exec: Well apparently, he's able to get around all of your tricks, and insultingly doing it at L70. So fix it, or youre fired. Dev Scrub 2: The only way to fix it would be to nerf FD, and that would aggravate the brawler community...(Dev Team thinks on this for a moment, smiles and then laughs!)EQ2: It's alright boys (and girls). Go ahead and nerf it and then claim it's for game streamlining.(general laughing ensues)

Arathy

12-12-2007, 07:55 PM

Thank you.

Writer Cal

12-12-2007, 10:01 PM

Thank you!!! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

smokedout

12-12-2007, 10:17 PM

well they say they will return Fd back too the way it was... thats good./dance

Gnobrin

12-13-2007, 12:04 AM

Update of my previously given info!The update to revert the Feign Death will not be on the 13th as I'd originally stated, but it shall be very soon. If I hear more, I'll let you know!~Gnobrin!

Novusod

12-13-2007, 12:16 AM

We still don't know why "On High" wants this nerf. What is the plan for brawlers if we can't FD travel. I would be willing to trade FD for fixing other issues with the class. Lets see working avoidance or getting Zerker type dps would be a good trade off. Something also tells me the devs are still trying to pull a fast one on us by pushing it to live and then delaying any type of fix.

Zabjade

12-13-2007, 02:04 AM

Thank you Wow we got a dev response! maybe we are not totally doomed for extinction after all. ^_^ We will understand if it takes some time, Bah I need to get my computer running 100% again anyway, it had a nasty virus that I admit is user error compiled with bad wording on the antivirus. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />See all we need is a little communication and we will be happy to talk it out! ^_^

Snowdonia

12-13-2007, 04:04 AM

Glad we got there in the end. Cheers

Kirstie

12-13-2007, 04:25 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We still don't know why "On High" wants this nerf. What is the plan for brawlers if we can't FD travel. I would be willing to trade FD for fixing other issues with the class. Lets see working avoidance or getting Zerker type dps would be a good trade off. Something also tells me the devs are still trying to pull a fast one on us by pushing it to live and then delaying any type of fix. </blockquote>The hotfix is currently planned for tomorrow morning at 7am PST (I just finished up the final touches) it should be on its way to test now.- K

KBern

12-13-2007, 10:16 AM

<cite>Kirstie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>We still don't know why "On High" wants this nerf. What is the plan for brawlers if we can't FD travel. I would be willing to trade FD for fixing other issues with the class. Lets see working avoidance or getting Zerker type dps would be a good trade off. Something also tells me the devs are still trying to pull a fast one on us by pushing it to live and then delaying any type of fix. </blockquote>The hotfix is currently planned for tomorrow morning at 7am PST (I just finished up the final touches) it should be on its way to test now.- K</blockquote>Thank you.

Junaru

12-13-2007, 11:50 AM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would be willing to trade FD for fixing other issues with the class. </blockquote>Speak for yourself. Right now FD is the biggest issue with the Brawlers IMHO. It's taken one night of using it for me to realize I would not doubt stop playing my Monk if it stayed this way. Try springing traps in DT with the new FD. I've done trap springing in DT for as long as I can remember and never died till last night.

Talathion

09-09-2008, 02:59 PM

The Only problem is FD bypasses things via using mobs aggro dropout timer.The best way to fix this would be to make FD Timer Start 3 seconds after you FD, not the full 10. ((3 seconds would fix it)), but seriously, 2 seconds would be very appropriate. ((because its still should be used as a solo utility ability.But it shouldnt let you drop down, get up, drop down, get up, pick up something, put up tsumani ((100% parry)), grab shiny, FD again.This also Stops the exploit where you can drag a player onto a mob, FD, move away from Player, FD again, Move away from Player FD Again, or kill people using Drag/FD with ^^^ mobs, finishing the players off. -- This also prevents brawlers from charming something, going to someone, FDing, breaking it, then FDing again. ((used with Charm items to kill other players so they can more easily farm)) ((commonly used by necromancers))