Life Burn vs Implode (Read First Post!)

[Mad Vip]

I was wondering what everyone thinks about the whole lifeburn vs implode thing. They are quite differt yet almost the same when it comes to doing damage. Before we begin I would like to restate the new descriptions for lifeburn and implode. Basically lifeburn does 5 disease damage for every 1 health point it costs you and cannot exceed 60% of the target's max health. Basically this is signle target and a crit means nothing since it cannot exceed 60% target's health. all a crit will do is make the damage go faster and this is assuming it does crit. I also hear it has a significantly long cast time and a cooldown of 5min.Now on to implode. This does damage which scales with level. Its a AoE and with recent change it allows for 100% cast time and reuse time for pet summon and pet buffs. This mean that as soon as it is executed in a .5 second cast you can resummon your pet again and continue the dps. With the proper macro this makes for almost negligible time lost for pet and significant damage to the enemy. The implode immunity timer is currently unknown to me so I'm not sure when it can be recast on the pet.In my opinion for pvp based combat implode is significantly better for the reason it can crit and kill regardless of how much damage it causes and is able not only to kill multiple opponents but has a small cast timer. I have asked in general chat on nagafen which is better for pvp and many people will say lifeburn is. I believe that many people are used to the old effects of implode of which I believe left you with a full cast time to resummon. I was wondering what everyone's take on this is.

[Solarax]

well i and a lot of necros i have raided with use LB only on big mobs that take a long time to kill and have a VAST ammount of HP that we could never do up to 60%  to. so in this situation implode has nothing on LB. you can also use LB on certain solo encounters but that is a case by case situational thingnow for grouping implode you could fire off more often and use it to do damage on more targets making it more effective and not need healing BUT you risk getting killed from mobs if your tank isnt on the ball and or you dont have a mezzer

[Xalmat]

The thing with Implode is:1. Unless they changed it, while Implode is active it will instantly re-kill the pet, forcing you to resummon it a second time.2. Although Implode does a high amount of damage, you're talking at least 5-10 seconds of downtime for resummoning the pet (if you count a second Implode), plus another 5 seconds to get Necromantic Pact and Howl from Beyond back on the pet. That's 10-15 seconds you could be casting spells, 5-10 seconds without a pet, and 5+ seconds your pet isn't at maximum output. Depending on how much DPS you're pulling, that 10 seconds of downtime is more lost damage than two Implodes does to the mob.3. You would need more than three mobs in an encounter for Implode to outdamage the 10-15 seconds lost. And the number of multi-mob encounters in general where Implode would actually be useful is pretty danged small. Maybe if the pet runs out-of-mana in a very long fight, Implode would be a useful means of resummoning the pet (since you're going to have downtime resummoning the pet anyway), but that means diverting AAs for a situational ability. Not a pleasant thing to do.4. Let's not forget that when your pet dies, you get aggro. That can very often mean <i>your</i> death, or at least downtime because you feigned to stay alive while the tank gets aggro back. All of this translates into additional downtime that you could otherwise be doing damage.

[Mad Vip]

<cite>I would like to take this time to re-interate reading the first post. I will highlight important aspects of it.Mad Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was wondering what everyone thinks about the whole lifeburn vs implode thing. They are quite differt yet almost the same when it comes to doing damage. Before we begin I would like to restate the <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>new descriptions for lifeburn and implode</b></span>. Basically lifeburn does 5 disease damage for every 1 health point it costs you and cannot exceed 60% of the target's max health. Basically this is signle target and a crit means nothing since it cannot exceed 60% target's health. all a crit will do is make the damage go faster and this is assuming it does crit. I also hear it has a significantly long cast time and a cooldown of 5min.Now on to implode. This does damage which scales with level. Its a AoE and <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>with recent change it allows for 100% cast time and reuse time for pet summon and pet buffs</b></span>. This mean that as soon as it is executed in a <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>.5 second</b></span> cast <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>you can resummon your pet again and continue the dps</b></span>. With the proper macro this makes for almost negligible time lost for pet and significant damage to the enemy. The implode immunity timer is currently unknown to me so I'm not sure when it can be recast on the pet.In <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>my opinion for pvp based combat</b></span> implode is significantly better for the reason it can crit and kill regardless of how much damage it causes and is able not only to kill multiple opponents but has a small cast timer. I have asked in general chat on nagafen which is better for pvp and many people will say lifeburn is. I believe that many people are used to the old effects of implode of which I believe left you with a full cast time to resummon. I was wondering what everyone's take on this is.</blockquote>This isn't meant to be cruel, just saying my opinion is not based on raid numbers or past descriptions of the spell. Even the old description does show implode being 100% faster cast time for 15 seconds after implode is cast.

[Xalmat]

Still doesn't change the fact that you lose a good 10-15 seconds of doing no real damage at all. Or for that matter, casting spells.

[Stinkybeagle]

     I wasnt playen a necro at the time implode came out  but from tells i got from some of my buddies, implode was a good combat spell. It blew up all pets including charmed ones and delt some seriouse damage. Infact i rolled my necro alt shortly after. Now Implode is nerfed to the point to were it is more of a benaficial spell to make a new pet without taken all the time to cast and rebuff. A lousey 1k-2k explosion on only your main pet is a waste if your going for damage, "ya might as well lifetap angain",In pvp you will not be using implode unless you controlling the battle or like handen out free tokens. Even then... the pvp modifiers are probly to low to even fathom doing damage with the resists on your oponent. Lifeburn on the other hand...the ratio is clear and concrete , it does its job and it does it verey well against mana shields and wardens nasty wards. The 5 min recast on lifeburn is acceptable for the dps it unleashes.  IMO Lifeburn=dps in a pinch  Implode = less downtime

[Za]

<p>The 100% increase just means the spells cast twice as fast.</p><ul><li>So pets cast in 5 seconds vs 10. </li><li>The Implode "buff" effect lasts 15 seconds... as I recall... so that means ANY pets you cast in that time period will appear right next to you and explode again... a reall problem unless the person you're attacking (PvP or PvE) is standing withing Implodes AoE range.</li><li>The 3rd cast will cast in 5 seconds, but the effect will have worn off, so this one will actually stay around.</li></ul><p>Bottom line is that this is a decent spell when you want to have an extra AoE around. It sucks in general because even though you're doing a little bit of AoE damage (4kish for 2 pets exploding in 15 seconsd) you're without your main source of DPS <b><u>AND PROTECTION</u></b>, over the course of the spells 15 second duration... which is a freakin lifetime for a cloth caster. In most cases. </p><p>Unless you're farming greyed out mobs by the batch, you're not going to live for 15 seconds without anything to protect you... or even if you're fighting mobs that you can tank on your own, you have no DPS... You only have the 2 implodes from the 10 seconds worth of casting time you spent. That's horrible! You're better off casting your AoE life tap and then wailing on one mob at a time.</p><p> Maybe there's something special about PvP combat that makes this AA more worth while, but even in my PvP experience, its more of a hinderance than a blessing.</p><p> And FYI... no Lifeburn is NOT for small mobs... any mob that we could 1 shot with it (even back when it didn't have the 60% liimtation), isn't worth wasting it on. Any Epic mobs will easily have 5x more HPts than you could ever possibly attain... regardless of how buffed you are. Even with crits and damage multipliers you won't come close to being able to do 60% of an epic mobs HPts... So, the point is, where its useful, LB will never miss any damage. Every bit of it will count. </p>

[evhallion]

<cite>Mad Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was wondering what everyone thinks about the whole lifeburn vs implode thing. They are quite differt yet almost the same when it comes to doing damage. Before we begin I would like to restate the new descriptions for lifeburn and implode. Basically lifeburn does 5 disease damage for every 1 health point it costs you and cannot exceed 60% of the target's max health. Basically this is signle target and a crit means nothing since it cannot exceed 60% target's health. all a crit will do is make the damage go faster and this is assuming it does crit. I also hear it has a significantly long cast time and a cooldown of 5min.Now on to implode. This does damage which scales with level. Its a AoE and with recent change it allows for 100% cast time and reuse time for pet summon and pet buffs. This mean that as soon as it is executed in a .5 second cast you can resummon your pet again and continue the dps. With the proper macro this makes for almost negligible time lost for pet and significant damage to the enemy. The implode immunity timer is currently unknown to me so I'm not sure when it can be recast on the pet.In my opinion for pvp based combat implode is significantly better for the reason it can crit and kill regardless of how much damage it causes and is able not only to kill multiple opponents but has a small cast timer. I have asked in general chat on nagafen which is better for pvp and many people will say lifeburn is. I believe that many people are used to the old effects of implode of which I believe left you with a full cast time to resummon. I was wondering what everyone's take on this is.</blockquote><p>You strike me as someone who has never used these spells. As others have said all you get from implode is a reduced cast timer of 5 seconds. however since you have to wait 5 seconds so your newly summoned pet doesn't implode as well you basicly still have a 10 second recast time plus rebuffing. Also in PVE blowing up your pet anywhere but the start of the fight will dump all it's hate right on your head and most times get you killed. Now all this trouble for a little 3k AOE? </p><p>On the other hand you have lifeburn which is intended to be a finisher move for named heroic or epic mobs. Done right and at the right time you can dish out around 70k+ damage to an epic mob. I have seen LB add 1k+ DPS to a necros parse and all I have ever seen from implode is it dropping a necros DPS on the parse from the trouble of resummoning/rebuffing the pet or just getting themself killed. The only time implode was ever useful in PVE was when we could charm undead and implode them.</p><p>As for PVP uses for these two spells both of them would get you killed in solo PVP and are useless for that. In group PVP both are only useful if you don't draw attention while you are using them as they both leave you in a very vunerable state. These things were thought up and designed for PVE (and in the case of implode very poorly thought up and designed) and will always have limited use in PVP.</p>

[Mad Vip]

<cite>Zald wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The 100% increase just means the spells cast twice as fast.</p><ul><li>So pets cast in 5 seconds vs 10. </li><li>The Implode "buff" effect lasts 15 seconds... as I recall... so that means ANY pets you cast in that time period will appear right next to you and explode again... a reall problem unless the person you're attacking (PvP or PvE) is standing withing Implodes AoE range.</li><li>The 3rd cast will cast in 5 seconds, but the effect will have worn off, so this one will actually stay around.</li></ul><p>Bottom line is that this is a decent spell when you want to have an extra AoE around. It sucks in general because even though you're doing a little bit of AoE damage (4kish for 2 pets exploding in 15 seconsd) you're without your main source of DPS <b><u>AND PROTECTION</u></b>, over the course of the spells 15 second duration... which is a freakin lifetime for a cloth caster. In most cases. </p><p>Unless you're farming greyed out mobs by the batch, you're not going to live for 15 seconds without anything to protect you... or even if you're fighting mobs that you can tank on your own, you have no DPS... You only have the 2 implodes from the 10 seconds worth of casting time you spent. That's horrible! You're better off casting your AoE life tap and then wailing on one mob at a time.</p><p> Maybe there's something special about PvP combat that makes this AA more worth while, but even in my PvP experience, its more of a hinderance than a blessing.</p><p> And FYI... no Lifeburn is NOT for small mobs... any mob that we could 1 shot with it (even back when it didn't have the 60% liimtation), isn't worth wasting it on. Any Epic mobs will easily have 5x more HPts than you could ever possibly attain... regardless of how buffed you are. Even with crits and damage multipliers you won't come close to being able to do 60% of an epic mobs HPts... So, the point is, where its useful, LB will never miss any damage. Every bit of it will count. </p></blockquote>This is exactly what I was looking for. And your right <span class="name">evhallion I have never used these spells that why I asked for information based on what I knew from reading.<b></b></span>

[KKLSTARR]

<p>Let me start off by saying - if they changed Implode in the last say month , I wasnt aware and ignore what I type below <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>For awhile I used implode regularly just to switch back and forth between pets quickly on a pvp server. I never had the second one implode. And I would recast immediately after the first one imploded. And im pretty sure back then even there was a 10-15 sec "timer" on implode for the reduced casting time.  </p><p> So unless they did change it specifically to implode your second pet , it doesnt work like that.</p>

[WasFycksir]

<p>I had Implode for awhile on Nagafen (PVP).  From the times I used it, usually a finishing blow type situation, it worked ok on single targets.</p><p>When I tried sending in the pet into groups of Q's it was very iffy at best.  It seemed to completely miss very often, seems the range was a real issue.</p><p>In the end the loss of the pet(s) and the irregularity of it's damage led to a respec, it just wasn't reliable or worth it.</p>

[quamdar]

i just wish they would make implode useful and hav e it just reduce your pets HP to 1 instead of kill  it.  that way it makes it risky to use but if you time it right and can heal up your pet quick enough it could be a decent AA.

[PsychoticaZylum]

I really hate that you can't implode and then insta re-summon your rogue pet that is just...mean <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Za]

<p>When implode 1st came out it was one of the most exploitable spells we've had access to. </p><p>It worked on your primary pet, charmed pet, and all perm pocket pets. The most I could get out at a time was 6 if I recall... So you could do around 18k per mob in AoE damage with the 1st cast, then another 2.5K after that. I killed groups of white ^^ mobs doing it. Great fun, hehe</p><p>  </p>

[KKLSTARR]

I just got implode again and checked. It doesnt "implode" your second pet if you recast immediatly. I use it to all the time on my tank pet when he is oop since it is so much faster to make a new one then to wait on him to regain power.  Used it dozens of times today and it never imploded the second pet. So it is working just fine ( of course would work better if it still imploded charmed pets ).

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>I'd like to see the old implode functionality on everything you have out (Tide, Pack, Awaken, etc) put back in but the damage on each implode cut to about 1/2 the current amount.</p><p>Then it would become a situational dps tool that required careful timing with your dumbfires so they could all be imploded just before they expire. It would also let you use dumbfires more effectively against AEing mobs.</p><p>As it stands currently it's pretty much a junk ability. Its only use if is you know your pet is gonna die to AE, it lets you throw a few damage out and get a new pet up faster. But you should really be using pacts etc. to keep the pet up in the first place.</p>