Less Effective

[Notsovilepriest]

So far at 78 I have notice even templars that I normally group with are now beating me on parses due to the fact the mobs are nearly one shotting wards now. I don't feel they added enough to our new wards to make up for the increased damage. Am I wrong?

[Thunderthyze]

Make sure you use <u>both</u> your standard wards (ST and group) and you should be fine. A templar is always likely to outparse you if you are only spam warding the MT with your ST ward.

[Banditman]

Are you wearing true healing gear?  All the Overloaded Heal items you can lay your hands on?At L77 I was able to solo heal Chelsith except for one or two boss fights.  That's before I even had access to the new ST Ward.  I generally parsed 3 to 5 times the healing of the Cleric in group in most fights.And as the above poster said, I cannot even begin to tell you how important using your Group Ward is.  I start casting mine as soon as I see the mob react to the tank.

[inshiningarmor]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Are you wearing true healing gear?  All the Overloaded Heal items you can lay your hands on?At L77 I was able to solo heal Chelsith except for one or two boss fights.  That's before I even had access to the new ST Ward.  I generally parsed 3 to 5 times the healing of the Cleric in group in most fights.And as the above poster said, I cannot even begin to tell you how important using your Group Ward is.  I start casting mine as soon as I see the mob react to the tank.</blockquote><p>   then the Templar was </p><p>A) not healing and DPSing</p><p>B) AFK</p><p>c) the damage was so trivial it ate up the ward and no additional healing was needed.</p><p>In no way shape form or alternate reality can you outheal a Templar by even 2 times if the Templar is trying.    If the Templar is trying you have no chance to outheal at all as a Mystic.   NONE.</p>

[Baccalarium]

With older content where the mobs don't hit as hard its trivial for a mystic to beat a templar on the parse.   Tank stays fully healed most the time,   wards absorb the damage, and the templar's reactives never get a chance to go off.   On hard content where the tanks health is jumping and only sometimes at the top of the bar,  then the templar and mystic are on equal footing in the parse.   In this case player skill and specifics of the particular encounter and equipment based heals will have a big impact on who tops the heal parse.<cite></cite>Did someone invite the kids from those other forums over here?   Seems like recently I see more insults than useful information on these forums.   Its getting discouraging, as the helpful community is what sets this game apart from those others.

[Notsovilepriest]

I'm just throwing it out there, I'm playing on a PvP server so I have access to only the Q side of classes, and also I have been an effective PvE Mystic on the server. Its not like I don't know the class. I also don't have the ability to have some of the leet gear that others can get on the PvE servers.I do cast my group wards and ST wards. They appear to get 1 or 2 shotted. The PvP aspect, our wards went up in amount such a minimal amount its basically forcing me to switch characters to PvP with and that makes me a bit sad. I currently am #6 Mystic WW for PvP. I know my class on levels that a PvE person wouldn't think about. Any more ideas?

[Kizee]

God forbid the templars top the parse sometimes now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />After all we have to work alot harder than casting group and single target wards over and over again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Banditman]

If you can't absolutely own the parse as a Shaman of either flavor, you are not playing the class to it's utmost.  It's that bloody simple.  You can toss insults all you like, it won't change the situation.Instead of insulting me, perhaps you'd like to share some of your knowledge with us.  So far, all I've seen you able to do is complain and toss insults.

[Baccalarium]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>So far at 78 I have notice even templars that I normally group with are now beating me on parses due to the fact the mobs are nearly one shotting wards now. I don't feel they added enough to our new wards to make up for the increased damage. Am I wrong?</blockquote><img src="http://home.classicnet.net/dennisj/mystictemp.jpg" alt="" border="0" />It would appear you're right.    Mystics wards got the short end of the stick in my quick comparison.  Inquisitors at least got a 20% across the board increase in their single target reactive, while mystics got a 16 to 17% increase in the single target ward.    Not sure if this is enough to be dramatic but it does seem odd.    Other numbers there would show that if you counted over heals and untriggered reactives sure the Inquisitor would come out on top.   I'd thought that the explanation for that was that mystics wards were generally 100% effective vs. reactives and hots only occasionally being 100% effective.I would assume this comparison would be identical if defiler and cleric were considered insted of mystic and inquisitor.   This was just the ones I looked up.Sorry for the ugly scan of a spread sheet,  but trying to get a table to post right was a nightmare.

[inshiningarmor]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you can't absolutely own the parse as a Shaman of either flavor, you are not playing the class to it's utmost.  It's that bloody simple.  You can toss insults all you like, it won't change the situation.Instead of insulting me, perhaps you'd like to share some of your knowledge with us.  So far, all I've seen you able to do is complain and toss insults.</blockquote><p>   That is ONLY because Wards get hit first.    You have no clue do you?    the parse is owned by Shamen only because wards get hit first.    In no way, shape, form, dream can you  '' outheal '' a Templar or a Warden.   <i>It </i>does not mean you know how to outheal them because you can spam 2 heals.   It is the game mechanics plain and simple.   There is no overheals with Wards... if a reactive goes off when a ward is up it is simply wasted.    Even knowing that Templars are close.    In a situation where wards are being eaten right away a Templar or a Warden will outheal you EVERY time.</p><p>   I can non stop spam two wards as well and top the heal parses.... wow really tough to own the parse.....</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

Bandit, I'm starting to believe what others say about you now. You willing to let Mystics turn into the other other leather healer. I USED to top parses and doing the same things now and even trying to change up to fix it, I can't find myself topping my Templar friend anymore. I flat out think that we have become less effective and you just don't want to admit it anymore.

[thedu]

<cite>Baccalarium wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>So far at 78 I have notice even templars that I normally group with are now beating me on parses due to the fact the mobs are nearly one shotting wards now. I don't feel they added enough to our new wards to make up for the increased damage. Am I wrong?</blockquote>It would appear you're right.    Mystics wards got the short end of the stick in my quick comparison.  Inquisitors at least got a 20% across the board increase in their single target reactive, while mystics got a 16 to 17% increase in the single target ward.    Not sure if this is enough to be dramatic but it does seem odd.    Other numbers there would show that if you counted over heals and untriggered reactives sure the Inquisitor would come out on top.   I'd thought that the explanation for that was that mystics wards were generally 100% effective vs. reactives and hots only occasionally being 100% effective.I would assume this comparison would be identical if defiler and cleric were considered insted of mystic and inquisitor.   This was just the ones I looked up.Sorry for the ugly scan of a spread sheet,  but trying to get a table to post right was a nightmare.</blockquote>I have noticed that Wards go down faster then they have before - even Master 2 versions.  Of course some of the mobs are harder but it could also be mitigation issues.

[thedu]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you can't absolutely own the parse as a Shaman of either flavor, you are not playing the class to it's utmost.  It's that bloody simple.  You can toss insults all you like, it won't change the situation.Instead of insulting me, perhaps you'd like to share some of your knowledge with us.  So far, all I've seen you able to do is complain and toss insults.</blockquote><p>   That is ONLY because Wards get hit first.    You have no clue do you?    the parse is owned by Shamen only because wards get hit first.    In no way, shape, form, dream can you  '' outheal '' a Templar or a Warden.   <i>It </i>does not mean you know how to outheal them because you can spam 2 heals.   It is the game mechanics plain and simple.   There is no overheals with Wards... if a reactive goes off when a ward is up it is simply wasted.    Even knowing that Templars are close.    In a situation where wards are being eaten right away a Templar or a Warden will outheal you EVERY time.</p><p>   I can non stop spam two wards as well and top the heal parses.... wow really tough to own the parse.....</p></blockquote>Inshingingarmor I'm not sure what is that you and tikasa are offering on these forums.  More often then not your posts are simply to bash Mystics.  To be honest I don't care about topping parses.  What I do care about is playing as well as I possibly can and making sure my group or raid is successful.  I don't care about being in the MT group and the obsession over it is mind boggling to me.If you know what is needed to improve Mystics then post that information.  If you want to show people that they are wrong then actually produce the hard information, i.e. stats.  You proclaimed in more then one post that you are a god when using ACT.  If you know what is needed to use that software then post it in a meaningful way so that we can understand it as well.  Mere bashing of a class will not get it modified or changed.

[N'ovva]

<p>You clerics are so cute.  Just go stand over there in your shining armor while we shamen keep the tank warded.  We may outparse you (though, I doubt I outparse anybody <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> ), but you sure look purdy, standing there all shiny.    <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[ShadowyStingray]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you can't absolutely own the parse as a Shaman of either flavor, you are not playing the class to it's utmost.  It's that bloody simple.  You can toss insults all you like, it won't change the situation.Instead of insulting me, perhaps you'd like to share some of your knowledge with us.  So far, all I've seen you able to do is complain and toss insults.</blockquote><p>   That is ONLY because Wards get hit first.    You have no clue do you?    the parse is owned by Shamen only because wards get hit first.    In no way, shape, form, dream can you  '' outheal '' a Templar or a Warden.   <i>It </i>does not mean you know how to outheal them because you can spam 2 heals.   It is the game mechanics plain and simple.   There is no overheals with Wards... if a reactive goes off when a ward is up it is simply wasted.    Even knowing that Templars are close.    In a situation where wards are being eaten right away a Templar or a Warden will outheal you EVERY time.</p><p>   I can non stop spam two wards as well and top the heal parses.... wow really tough to own the parse.....</p></blockquote>I don't see Banditman saying his formula for heal parse ownage is to spam 2 wards...  That is your assumption/interpretation.  My interpretation of what he is saying is that a well-played shaman (implying one who knows all of their abilities and uses them as necessary) can still top (or be near the top) of the heal parse.  I agree with this and think this still leaves a lot of room for player skill to factor into the results, maybe even more so now with mobs hitting harder.  The same can be said for the effectiveness of players playing other healing classes.  Sure shaman may have 1 advantage due to how the game's damage mechanics work, but this is a 2-way street: their wards have a lower theoretical total heal amount than other classes, are less power efficient, and that goes for their direct heals as well.  This was no doubt done to try to maintain a balance within the current system.  If anything, it sounds to me like you are making an argument that Mystics/Defilers don't have enough healing 'power' in tough encounters compared to clerics and druids if you think they can be outhealed in those cases after using all of their tools at their disposal (don't really see any evidence to back this up though)...

[inshiningarmor]

 Really not trying to dis Mystics at all.  My main is still a Mystic.    I am saying this.   ALL you need to do is spam group and ST ward   NOTHING ELSE and all but the best Templars will be hard pressed to top your parse.   It takes NO SKILL to top the parse as a Shamen NONE.   Spam 2 spells and you have it.

[Kizee]

<cite>Rykshi@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You clerics are so cute.  Just go stand over there in your shining armor while we shamen keep the tank warded.  We may outparse you (though, I doubt I outparse anybody <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> ), but you sure look purdy, standing there all shiny.    <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Except that I am not very shiny anymore because the item guy was too lazy to put in plate/chain healer armor. I think his words were "All the healers can use leather...why bother wasting time putting the same stats and effects on plate/chain"

[Turgenite]

<p>"All the healers can use leather...why bother wasting time putting the same stats and effects on plate/chain"</p><p>I can agree with your issue there Kizee, though I think that's a complaint on another thread.  This one is for "Who's got a bigger heal?"</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>EDIT:Where's my dern "Preview Post" button...</p>

[Bathtubtina]

<p>Dont you mean bigger "healpeen"?</p><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p>

[Turgenite]

<cite>Fynne@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dont you mean bigger "healpeen"?</p><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p></blockquote><p> <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Yep... you explained it much better than I.  Well put. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Banditman]

Here's some data to chew on for the "Shaman only win because Wards come first" crowd.I parsed most of our run through Chelsith last night, I say most.  I intended to parse it all, but crashed about 75% of the way through the zone, so I didn't get the whole thing in one shot.Anyway, over the course of my parse, I looked at a number of things.  My group was:  80 Guardian, 80 Swash, 80 Inquisitor, 80 Coercer, 78 Mystic (me), 79 Assassin.First off, yes, I [Removed for Content]' owned the overall parse.  Yes, a lot of that was due to my Wards coming first.  The final numbers were Mystic 1.2 million total healing, Inquisitor 375k healing.Now, I found some very interesting things however with regards to actual "healing".  In looking at the MT, he had a total of 1.1 million HP of incoming damage.  Of that, 290k was Warded by Umbral Liturgy and another 241k Warded by Ancient Aegis.  That left 569k damage of true healing to be done on the MT.Of this, Vengeful Faith (Inquisitor reactive) healed 142k.  Interestingly, the second largest source of true healing was Overloaded Heal at 91k.  Since I was the only one sporting any Overloaded Heal gear, I can safely say that I was providing the second largest source of actual HP.For each player, here are their four largest sources of healing (wards included here):80 Guardian - Umbral Liturgy @ 290k, Ancient Aegis @ 241k, Vengeful Faith @ 142k, Overloaded Heal @ 91k80 Swashy - Umbral Liturgy @ 32k, Overloaded Heal @ 24k, Transcendence @ 22k, Alleviation @ 14k80 Inquisitor - Overloaded Heal @ 18k, Transcendence @ 15k, Alleviation @ 13k, Umbral Liturgy @ 10k80 Coercer - Overloaded Heal @ 21k, Transcendence @ 15k, Umbral Liturgy @ 12k, Alleviation @ 11k78 Mystic - Healing Pulse @ 29k, Transcendence @ 29k, Overloaded Heal @ 19k, Alleviation @ 8k79 Assassin - Overloaded Heal @ 17k, Transcendence @ 15k, Alleviation @ 8k, Inquisition @ 7kWhen looking specifically at myself and my healing output:Umbral Liturgy - 383kAncient Aegis - 251kOverloaded Heal - 217kTranscendence - 139kStoicism - 72kRunic Aegis - 45kHealing Pulse - 29kBlessing of Anashti Sul - 28kRejuvenation - 22kRitual Healing - 14kI wore exactly one piece of armor that was not chain, a pair of leather boots with Replenishing Heal on them.  Everything else was chain armor aquired in RoK or from T7 raiding.Finally, in the end analysis of damage not warded, the Shaman healed half of it.  I did my fair share of the true healing, as well as providing a Ward buffer to keep things sane.I'm curious about the "less effective" feeling.  I'm not feeling it, the numbers aren't showing it.  Where is it coming from?  Can anyone provide some data to support it?

[Finora]

<p>Just a thought (and honestly I've not done a whole lot of grouping in ROK yet or leveling since I've had nearly no time to play lately), but could be that so many mystics are feeling like they are less effective because of the amount of doing nothing but standing there spamming heals that seems to be going on now. </p><p>Not the case all the time I'm sure, but there's certainly more of that than the vast majority of mystics have previously experienced, making people feel less flexable than they are accustomed to. Add that to the fact that there was the "all healers can wear leather" dev comment, no upgrades for some of our spells (yes percentage based blah blah blah I know, I've heard it, all about appearances though), the fact that our EOF aa's still pretty much are ew other than buffs & melee yet almost every piece of 'shaman friendly' gear out there <b>seems</b> to give wis/sta/int & some sort of spell increaser... It certainly does lead people to feel like mystics are being ignored or something.</p><p>(before anyone comes in to tell me there are lots of good mystic items, I'm talking about appearances. The stuff that most people will have seen thus far. Not what 'might' exist that people have started marketing on the broker).</p>

[Banditman]

There is absolutely no doubt that mobs hit harder now.  It means that we do spend more time doing actual "healing" whether that be Warding or true healiing.This change is not just Mystics, this is all healers.  Every single healer in the game has to work harder now at actually HEALING.  Is that a bad thing?  I like a challenge, I think a lot of other healers are the same.  Prior to RoK, healing was stupid easy.  Any healer could do it.  Even a bad one.  Not so much anymore.What I am seeing in RoK is that the content is more strictly enforcing roles on the classes.  Tanks tank.  Healers heal.  DPS kills stuff.  Crowd control is actually important!I am not averse to this change.As gear and skills improve, healing may become less time intensive.  It's hard to say right now.

[Rayche]

Interesting notes there Banditman.Here are some thoughts on that.<i>"Since I was the only one sporting any Overloaded Heal gear, I can safely say that I was providing the second largest source of actual HP."</i>If you remove that to compensate, or add 217k to the Inquisitor to match gear the parse comes a little closer. (Not a lot, but a little)P.S.Overloaded heal items are getting nerfed down a bit, I'm thinking what you just posted is a good reason why.<i>"Stoicism - 72k"</i>This is just my playstyle, but I would have thought Stoicism would have ranked MUCH higher as it's your best heal/mana ratio. (In my groups it ranks close to #1.)<i>"Finally, in the end analysis of damage not warded, the Shaman healed half of it.  I did my fair share of the true healing, as well as providing a Ward buffer to keep things sane."</i>What was the Inquisitors DPS parse? I know when I'm in a single group situation where the tank isn't spending a LOT of time below 75% health, our other healers shift to DPS and only cast their heals when the tank is visibly taking damage. What you showed there is NOT a typical Cleric's heal parse if they are trying to heal.

[inshiningarmor]

<p>Exactly.   If another healer is spamming heals I am not going to waste mine when I could be doing something more important.    Like it was said above the healer was:</p><p>A) not healing</p><p>B) Doing something else</p><p>C) Asleep</p><p>   I still stand by my words there is <b><u>NO WAY</u></b> you can outheal by that large a margin ANY other healer including a Fury.</p>

[Rayche]

Wanted to add:In a 2 healer group I do NOT cast my group ward except as a pre-pull ward. It casts FAR too slow to be effective. I could be slowing/debuffing and cycling through every other heal/combat art in that time. (The only other time I use my group wards is when we're in an uphill fight trying merely to stay alive longer than the mob(s).)

[NalerianC]

<p>I could swear that this is a change that went live recently (specifically with RoK) but has anyone noticed that damage is nowing chewing through 1 ward at a time?  I was 99% sure that previous to this, damage to wards was spread across all wards that are active on a player.  I twobox a paladin and mystic (actually 3box with wizzy.. but no substantial wards there) and have noticed that the damage being done on my pally is eating through 1 ward at a time, more specifically, the first ward that was cast (relative to the others).  So wards are now following a FIFO mentality.  </p><p>I personally find this change (if it is indeed a change) to be quite annoying and reduces the usefulness of spells such as Torpor and Stoicism which if they are cast second, will not have the ward component touched until the previously cast wards are chewed through (thus negating the usefulness of having a regenerating, smaller ward to help out the larger, more powerful version).</p><p>You can really see how this works if you have Othesus' maintained window UI mod (where it shows the ward amount remaining).  This brings up a potential issue with the Runic Talisman line of buffs... when do those wards actually get to absorb any damage?  </p><p>Just something to think about...</p>

[Rayche]

My Profit UI shows remaining ward amounts and it has been counting down one ward at a time for a while I'm pretty sure.

[Apos]

<p>I have to admit, I actually don't really understand the point behind the thread in regard to single groups. I mean, I don't think there's any single group content in the game that requires 2 healers unless you are doing it without an actual tank class or you are really underleveled or undergeared for what you are doing. I've done chelsith like 6 or 7 times now as the only healer and it hasn't been that bad at all. I find maidens a lot more difficult to single heal, and that's doable more or less though I prefer a second healer as backup. I mean if I had trouble with this stuff, I'd understand, but I just don't.</p>

[Rayche]

Not sure what they have in RoK, but prior to RoK there was Shard of Fear and Nizarra for zones that pretty much require two healers. Other than that, sometimes you group with friends. And sometimes... those friends include another healer.I haven't done Chelsith yet (This expansion comes at a very busy time of year for my family), but I'd have to congratulate you on doing that zone 6 or 7 times with a great tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />

[lstead]

Stuff certainly hits harder, you notice that about 10 seconds off of the dock. But as I said when the clerics were complaining about the parse, as long as everyone is still alive and I am contributing I'm happy, whether I'm at the top or middle of the parse. Parsing for healing is heavily subject to oddities in the order of healing which favors shaman and to some extent single/aoe with aoe favoring druids.I'm more concerned about the ability of one healer of any class to heal a single group in ROK than I am about where the parse is.

[Banditman]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wanted to add:In a 2 healer group I do NOT cast my group ward except as a pre-pull ward. It casts FAR too slow to be effective. I could be slowing/debuffing and cycling through every other heal/combat art in that time. (The only other time I use my group wards is when we're in an uphill fight trying merely to stay alive longer than the mob(s).)</blockquote>Ok, fine.  I'll say it and risk getting it nerfed.If you are not casting your Group Ward every single time it's up, you're crazy.It has to do with Overloaded Heal.  Follow me here, this may take a bit to explain.Let's say I'm wearing 4 Overloaded Heal items.  I think they usually have like a 1.3 (1.6 with Ancestry) proc per minute effect.  Understanding that 1.3 is important.  That number is based upon someone casting continuously, with no recovery period.  Basically, it's a 2% chance to proc per second of casting time.So, let's say I cast Ritual Healing with it's 3 second cast time.  Each item with Overloaded Heal gets about a 6% chance to proc or 9% with Ancestry.  This is why Ancestry changes it from 1.3 to 1.6 instead of 1.3 to 1.34.  Ancestry affects the underlying percentage, not the listed procs per minute.  I know, very convoluted.Anyway, because I have 4 items, the 6% chance actually comes out to 24%, or 36% with Ancestry.  That's a pretty decent chance of having an extra 200 HP added to my heal.  However, let's examine another alternative.What happens when I cast a Group Heal like Transcendence?  It has the same cast time as Ritual Healing, so the percentages stay the same.Things get insane.  In a good way.Each person who gets "hit" with Transcendence gets that chance to proc Overloaded Heal.  If you have a full group, it's not uncommon for 4 Overloaded Heal items to DOUBLE the amount of healing Transcendence does, simply because each item gets its own chance to proc on EACH PERSON.Four chances per person, times six people . . . it's pretty much a guarantee that you've got one proc coming, and most likely 2 or 3 will go off.  More Overloaded Heal items just mean more chances.So anyway, the long and winding road is this:  Umbral Liturgy takes 5 seconds to cast.Because of it's long cast time, it has a MUCH higher chance to proc.  The base chance is 10.8%, or 13.8% with Ancestry.  Gonna use 11 and 14 because I'm lazy.Umbral Liturgy has a 44% (or 56% with Ancestry) chance to proc PER PERSON.  In essence, you're gonna get 3 procs of Overloaded Heal when Umbral Liturgy lands on average.  It's kinda hard to see through the green sometimes if your group was taking any sort of AE damage.You get not only the 3500 or whatever Ward, but you get 600-1000 HP of TRUE HEALING on every member of your group!  That is crazy insane numbers!Now, I suppose you need to realize that many of the bosses in RoK have AE's now.  That healing is NEEDED.  The point is to know it's there and utilize it.Yes, my tank may take some damage waiting on Umbral Liturgy to land, but the point is that he's gonna get a huge Ward *and* a Heal all at once!  I can follow it up with a quick heal as well if he took too much damage, but usually it isn't important.  The Ward plus the heal generally do the trick.Sometimes I'm glad the devs don't read our forums.

[Baccalarium]

Shhh,   6 x the proc rate is nice, but it doesn't help me the times the tank died in those 5 seconds. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[thedu]

I ususally put Ancestry on a Bard or the MT...I don't know if I will be able to take the juice bottle away from them...

[Banditman]

Come on now, seriously, how many Group class mobs do the 2000+ DPS necessary to kill a tank while you put up that Ward?I realize that there are situations where you get a damage spike and have to react, but I'm talking about as a matter of course.

[inshiningarmor]

<p> unless something recently changed look at your log file.    The proc heck goes in at the time you cast, not complete.    We have been using that fact for some time to get additional procs.   Casting the group ward on the pull then would essentially waste the proc as you healed a topped off group.   I have not raided since RoK, so they might have changed that.    </p>

[Baccalarium]

If the went off at beginnig of cast it would be insta heals followed 5 seconds later by the ward.   I think  would have noticed if all I need to do to make procs go off is start the cast then stop.    No power healing,  and power ups by starting and stopping repeatadly,  I haven't seen that.

[Rayche]

Nice find Bandit. They already stated that they are nerfing the heal amount of the overloaded heal items, hopefully they aren't already in the process of nerfing the proc mechanics as well.So I'm guessing you didn't use the group ward as much prior to those little gems of healing happiness with Kunark. That makes MUCH more sense. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I still think you need to be triggering Stoicism more, but that's just me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />P.S.On a side note, since it's the holiday and I really won't have time to play a LOT until January... prior to Kunark the push was for ALL classes to find ways to contribute to DPS as DPS was king, and ending encounters faster was the goal. Is that not so much the case in Kunark? Or is it still?

[Ordate]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nice find Bandit. They already stated that they are nerfing the heal amount of the overloaded heal items, hopefully they aren't already in the process of nerfing the proc mechanics as well.So I'm guessing you didn't use the group ward as much prior to those little gems of healing happiness with Kunark. That makes MUCH more sense. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">I still think you need to be triggering Stoicism more, but that's just me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">P.S.On a side note, since it's the holiday and I really won't have time to play a LOT until January... prior to Kunark the push was for ALL classes to find ways to contribute to DPS as DPS was king, and ending encounters faster was the goal. Is that not so much the case in Kunark? Or is it still?</blockquote>There are deffinately some full burn parts of some fights.  DPS burns is just one of the many different raid mechanics.  Now I do know there is at least one encounter that is revisiting of one of the "harder" t6 raid encounters.  Its a fun fight... Though I think the guy has a crush on me, even though I was trying to court his sister.

[Banditman]

No, I didn't use the Group Ward nearly as much prior to RoK.It was simply something I had for use in raids and as a pre-pull for a tough named.  Once I realized what was going on with Overloaded Heal though, I made sure to use it as often as possible.I do use Stoicism when I need it, but honestly, I just don't NEED it very often with using the Group Ward and Overloaded Heal x5.  I mean, let's face it, if the tank is holding aggro, 3500+ Ward on a well mitigated tank is pretty stinkin' huge.I'm sure that once I start raiding T8 regularly, I'll be using it a lot more often.  Cross raid castable, fully stackable . . . cannot beat it.  Actually, I did use it quite a bit last night in the fight with Drusilla.  It's "one of those" fights that give Mystics trouble . . . long term, high power consumtion.  Perfect for Stoicism.Edit:  In looking at the Drusilla fight in ACT, Stoicism actually came up to 13-15% of my overall healing, with Transcendence dropping off considerably.  Due to the extremely extended duration of that fight, I even went back to Ethereal Aegis for the higher heal:power ratio.

[thedu]

All I got to say is WOW!I haven't grouped in the past two weeks because I was working on quests and factions.  But last night I got into a Crypt of Agony group.  And because it took sometime to get a group together I had time to select all the "healer" items and wear them.   A mixture of Chain and Leather but with all the procs.I didn't realize what Banditman was saying until I saw it with my own eyes.  The group ward was something I just never really considered using all that much before either, but with the procs if another person in the group get's hit then get an additional ward or extra heal.   This is especially true in Crypt of Agony because that stupid DoT hits everyone.   And because of the extra in combat health regen I always had enough power. Looking at the parse afterwards I handily beat the warden by 50000 hp and I beat him in DPS too. I'm going to start putting together a list of items to see what has the best proc combinations....this is going to be interesting grouping.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Baccalarium wrote:</cite><blockquote>With older content where the mobs don't hit as hard its trivial for a mystic to beat a templar on the parse.   Tank stays fully healed most the time,   wards absorb the damage, and the templar's reactives never get a chance to go off.   On hard content where the tanks health is jumping and only sometimes at the top of the bar,  then the templar and mystic are on equal footing in the parse.   In this case player skill and specifics of the particular encounter and equipment based heals will have a big impact on who tops the heal parse.<cite></cite>Did someone invite the kids from those other forums over here?   Seems like recently I see more insults than useful information on these forums.   Its getting discouraging, as the helpful community is what sets this game apart from those others.</blockquote>I agree with your suggestion about parse expectations however totally disagree with your assumption about this forum. For years The Mystic forum has been a wasteland....tumbleweed blowing in stage left, exiting stage right etc... it's great to see a little more activity. If that means there is irreverent banter then I can stand it.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Kizee@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>God forbid the templars top the parse sometimes now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />After all we have to work alot harder than casting group and single target wards over and over again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>LOL....debuffs ftw....so many, such little time. Also please don't forget ubah mystic melee dps.</p><p>Conclusion? Mystics...this season's new black!</p>

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The parse is owned by Shamen only because wards get hit first.    In no way, shape, form, dream can you  '' outheal '' a Templar or a Warden.   </blockquote>Healing is "failure" to a shaman <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wanted to add:In a 2 healer group I do NOT cast my group ward except as a pre-pull ward. It casts FAR too slow to be effective. I could be slowing/debuffing and cycling through every other heal/combat art in that time. (The only other time I use my group wards is when we're in an uphill fight trying merely to stay alive longer than the mob(s).)</blockquote>I used to do this and was regularly outparsed by the Templar. Haven't raided t8 yet so this is based on t7 but when I adjusted my style to incorporate the group ward I out parsed the Temp by 2-3x which suggests that the group ward IS effective notwithstanding the long cast time. What it DID make me do was pay more attention to my timers and only debuff when it was about to run out and NOT lose 1~2 seconds by overlaying wards/debuffs. Hell....I was even able to get my DOTS in too! More effective overall.

[Rayche]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wanted to add:In a 2 healer group I do NOT cast my group ward except as a pre-pull ward. It casts FAR too slow to be effective. I could be slowing/debuffing and cycling through every other heal/combat art in that time. (The only other time I use my group wards is when we're in an uphill fight trying merely to stay alive longer than the mob(s).)</blockquote>I used to do this and was regularly outparsed by the Templar. Haven't raided t8 yet so this is based on t7 but when I adjusted my style to incorporate the group ward I out parsed the Temp by 2-3x which suggests that the group ward IS effective notwithstanding the long cast time. What it DID make me do was pay more attention to my timers and only debuff when it was about to run out and NOT lose 1~2 seconds by overlaying wards/debuffs. Hell....I was even able to get my DOTS in too! More effective overall.</blockquote>Topping the heal parse by casting your group wards (Overflowing heal proc notwithstanding) does NOT mean you are being efficient. In fact, if you are PREVENTING the Clerics/Druids from doing their jobs (Healing) then you are hampering the group. You provide some very nice DPS which shortens the fights duration, which prevents the need for overall healing. Yes. You can top the heal parse by spamming your wards. That does not mean you are helping your group.Not overlaying debuffs is assumed.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Topping the heal parse by casting your group wards (Overflowing heal proc notwithstanding) does NOT mean you are being efficient. In fact, if you are PREVENTING the Clerics/Druids from doing their jobs (Healing) then you are hampering the group. </blockquote>Err....they can do other things too you know? I'm not going to slack off just so someone else can get a heal in. If you are going to depend on a reactive going off....better hope the tank doesn't get one shotted before the heal has time to go off.

[thedu]

Rayche has a valid point.  If the tank is not taking any kind of damage with a ward on then the Hot or Regen is basically being wasted.  But the one thing that often helped Druids and Clerics were their group regens and reactives.  I almost never used group wards because they never seemed very efficient especially in DPS groups.  But alot of that has changed with expansion and I'm still trying to figure out just what is best in what situation.  I have gone back to Stoicism on named pulls and debuffing, rather then group ward right away.  It often makes more sense (and it did prior to RoK) to let tanks take some damage THEN ward, because hots and regens would then take over.

[Banditman]

I'm still pre-pull casting Group Ward, though not necessarily for the protection.I use it to trigger off Replenishing Heal (power over time to anyone who gets the "heal&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and the Anaphylaxis weapon (lowers re-use time on healing spells) when I'm using it.  The Handmaidens encounter in Maiden's Chamber is very nice to have that faster re-use.