This felt really bad reading...

[Verrie77]

<p>I had a look at the Defiler-forum earlier...and read a betray-thread there.The person got a few answers..and one was like this...and it didnt feel very nice reading it.</p><p>Made me wonder ( im quite new mystic ) is this correct?</p><p>--------------------------------------- copied this from that thread</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Better at SOLOING that is it.   1 EoF line ( combat ) all of them take.   The other 3 are up for grabs.    Mystics buff against diminishing curves and they use MORE power for heals and debuffs with no way to regen the power.   Except for the 4 combat skills, and Ancestry, EoF tree is garbage for them.   <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>Defilers are much better in groups and raids.   MUCH BETTER.</b>  </span>  I have both and my boyfriend has both. ( both of his are raid level )  Defilers have a MUCH better EoF line.   My boyfriend is at 136 AA's and still has 70/54 assigned.   The rest is garbage and he does not bother to assign them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">If you solo alot or are a low level Mystics are the way to go.    <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>If you like haveing great abilities, better debuffs, better buffs, better heals and power regen stay Defiler.</b> </span>When we box both Mystics we can duo Karnors with little risk, so they are nice DPS.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">PS  one EoF line is reducing casting timers and costs of Rezzing.   One line is adding a 100 point ward on your heals ( 5 points=100 points ) that only wards the type of damage the cure is.   One is the combat line,  ( which does NOT keep dogdog alive longer ) the last one is augmenting, increases fortelling, adds a small amount of Wis/int on their avatar line, SoW to 40%, <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Increases their worthless healing beaver<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />, Increases bolster ( nice one finally ) </span></b>and increases the amount of their stunning ward ( you want to be stunned for 45 seconds?)<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  No attack, no debuffing no nothing... insta AFK break</span></p><p>-----------------------------------------</p><p>The reason it feels bad is cause i just came from being a mystic- defiler and now back to mystic....and i LOVE it.I dont feel like we have all that bad stuff...i have an easier time healing actually.And i dont feel like this is correct at all....anyone?</p>

[rvbarton]

I think it's pretty accurate.  I'm actually debating whether or not to betray and try the defiler side for awhile.

[Thunderthyze]

A defiler and a mystic played with the same degree of skill will end up being indistinguishable overall. Yes, there will be certain scenarios where one may perfom better but by and large they are balanced ok. The problem is that the overriding hysteria that results in the clamour for a defiler in the MT group has overridden common sense. In my opinion if a raid fails due to the shortcomings of a well played Mystic then 99  out of 100 Defilers will have failed too.

[Banditman]

The only thing I've really seen a Defiler really beat out a Mystic at is long term healing.  Their ability to regen power is pretty significant in long term fights.Aside from that, yea, Defilers and Mystics both are able to do the job.The player numbers seem to bear that out as well.  In looking at the Defiler versus Mystic numbers on 10 servers, I found that in all but one server, there are ever so slightly more Mystics at L71 or greater.

[tikasa]

  Before KoS Mystics were almost triple Defilers.   Also if you look Under 70 there are more Mystics.... 70+ more Defilers.    Mystics are MUCH better soloers and easiers to play in my opinion.   People level with Mystics then betray to Defilers....

[tikasa]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>A defiler and a mystic played with the same degree of skill will end up being indistinguishable overall. Yes, there will be certain scenarios where one may perfom better but by and large they are balanced ok. The problem is that the overriding hysteria that results in the clamour for a defiler in the MT group has overridden common sense. In my opinion if a raid fails due to the shortcomings of a well played Mystic then 99  out of 100 Defilers will have failed too.</blockquote><p>   You are right here 100%.   But when you compare a " well played Mystic "  they are competing with an average Defiler.    I started out as a Mystic and still love the class, and for the most part they are identical.   But when you compare the SAME person playing both you will find 99 out of 100 will tell you it is much easier to do the same job as a defiler.... then when the chips are down the Defiler can get the job done when the Mystic would have failed.</p><p>     Almost every raid force switched to a Defiler for a reason... they have advantages to the class.   With the same person that played a  " well played Mystic "  they also make an incredible Defiler. </p>

[Banditman]

A well played Mystic and a well played Defiler are very comparable except in certain very specific circumstances.Yes, Mystics could use a little power regen help.Yes, Mystics could use a few more "OH (*@#" type healing abilities.

[Verrie77]

<p>thing is i find it easier to play as mystic even in groups....casue as defiler you dont have anythign that gives HP back.only wards wards...so if someone goes down you need to heal...we have our bear and the Ward with regen in it at least...and Bolster is great.</p><p>You cant really "ward" somenoe back to life if things goes wrong. that is what i like about mystic.</p>

[Banditman]

With the advent of some new items / effects in RoK this is a much less important distinction anymore.Stoicism is still a great heal.  Lunar Attendant can be marginally useful in certain situations.  Things like Overloaded Heal on the other hand will never be unwelcome in my arsenal.

[Bathtubtina]

I guess I have come to the conclusion that we are considered the lesser of two shamans.  That's okay I guess,  but I am tired of being turned down for a group instances because I am not a defiler.  My guild likes my mystic and thats what counts but it still frustrates me to no end that everytime I read a thread or look up one..its always talking about how inferior we are to Defilers.   I know Defilers are really uber at 80..I played a Dev Buffed one in the beta..it almost made cry at how awesome they are especially with the power usage/regen.  Why cant SOE make us feel like we are needed, they have a given us a neat heal at level 80 but omg at the power drain..why not take the power drain per tick away? Atleast give us something we can brag about. I am down but not out as far as my Mystic goes..but who knows where the future holds.

[ottugi]

I think one thing to remember is that this game continues to changeand classes should continue to be balanced.If you aren't enjoying your class, you can stop playing for awhile.If you enjoy what you are doing, who cares what others say?Classes are different and pro & cons follow.Defilers weren't a class people sought after earlier on.Who knows what will happen? Who's to say SOE won't all of sudden make mystics less of a dps soloer?I think sometimes people focus too much on what would seem like a consensus of someforum users atm (some of them obviously biased to their own classes).What do you feel when you play your mystic?Are you constantly raiding or thinking of doing that?Or, are you interested in a more balanced & versatile class?Find what makes you enjoy EQ2 and stick with it.Don't feel bad because you read things off forum posting.If you love playing your mystic, that's all it matters.

[Oneira]

<cite>ottugijr wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think one thing to remember is that this game continues to changeand classes should continue to be balanced.If you aren't enjoying your class, you can stop playing for awhile.If you enjoy what you are doing, who cares what others say?Classes are different and pro & cons follow.Defilers weren't a class people sought after earlier on.Who knows what will happen? Who's to say SOE won't all of sudden make mystics less of a dps soloer?I think sometimes people focus too much on what would seem like a consensus of someforum users atm (some of them obviously biased to their own classes).What do you feel when you play your mystic?Are you constantly raiding or thinking of doing that?Or, are you interested in a more balanced & versatile class?Find what makes you enjoy EQ2 and stick with it.Don't feel bad because you read things off forum posting.If you love playing your mystic, that's all it matters.</blockquote>I think the problem here is that, with the new expansion, the weaknesses of mystics become more glaring.  We are probably the poorest healing class when it comes to pow effeciency, pow regen and casting times/interruptibility.  Some of the new spells, nice though they might be, just make that worse.

[Thunderthyze]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the problem here is that, with the new expansion, the weaknesses of mystics become more glaring.  <b>We are probably the poorest healing class when it comes to pow effeciency, pow regen</b> and casting times/interruptibility.  Some of the new spells, nice though they might be, just make that worse.</blockquote><p>Really? I sometimes find that I may forget to drink while soloing RoK and don't notice until after perhaps the 10th chain pulled yellow mob! Even then I'm only down to 50% power and I actually begrudge popping a drink in order to boost myself up to 100% quickly. I'd far rather go afk for a couple of minutes and make a cup of coffee and regen my OWN power <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.</p><p>I guess this is probably down to the incredible amounts of FT available these days.</p>

[Banditman]

I was outhealing L80 Clerics at L77 by a considerable margin, and ending fights with more power.I completely solo healed Vault of Eternal Sleep and solo healed most of Chelsith.My "Primary Healer" gear is  nearly all RoK quested gear, replacing my T7 Fabled gear.  I do still use the Tribal Spiritists Hat, Mark of Awakening and DT Access wrist when healing.The only zone that REALLY [Removed for Content] me off was Crypt of Agony, that stupid debuff is quite annoying.  Still, with good DPS, fights are so short that it doesn't really matter all that much besides being an annoyance.

[Baccalarium]

<cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>--------------------------------------- copied this from that thread</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">...Except for the 4 combat skills, and Ancestry, EoF tree is garbage for them.   <span style="color: #ff0000;"></span>...at 136 AA's and still has 70/54 assigned.   The rest is garbage and he does not bother to assign them.</span></p><p> <span style="color: #cc6600;">PS  one EoF line is reducing casting timers and costs of Rezzing.   One line is adding a 100 point ward on your heals ( 5 points=100 points ) that only wards the type of damage the cure is.   </span></p><p>-----------------------------------------</p></blockquote>Agree  with that part.    The EOF tree left mystics with no options.  There's only so many points I can stuff into the buf line before I finally added enough to the combat line to get the dog boost at the end.   The dog boost at the end used to be bugged but seems to be fixed now.Agree with the other discussions that Mystics suffer in power.    On hard content healing and squeezing debuffs between the heals will run me out of power quick.   As a mystic I feel like the times my party wipes are usually either because I ran out power, or because wards fell while I was casting the long cast debuffs, or the group ward.     Defilers got help in the EOF line  to help get their debufs out,   alll I hear anymore is how much better debuffers defilers are than mystics, when I remember a time when the opposite was said,   I imagine this is purely doe to EoF AA tree but don't have facts.Most defilers are better than mystics threads seem to ignore Torpor/Stoicism and Bolster.    I don't know what the Defiler equivalents of these are,  but I know I use them both as often as I can on hard content.   Stoicism in particular on anything but a bruiser/monk tank.   Raid zone wide, guard tank:31% single target ward25% Stoicism/torpor18% group ward10% group heal....0% Umbral attendant   (yes the heal bear generally sucks)Group zone 1-4 levels above the group, monk tank:50% single target ward12% Stoicism/Torpor11% Runic10% group ward9%   direct heal4% overload healSo even avoiding stoicism it counted 12%.Notice that group and direct heals are never at the top of the list,  so the argument that a small boost to them due to defilers using their own HP pool to add to the direct heals seems unlikely to make a big difference.   No easy way in parse to see how much damage Bolster prevented.

[Supp]

<cite>Fynne@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess I have come to the conclusion that we are considered the lesser of two shamans.  That's okay I guess,  but I am tired of being turned down for a group instances because I am not a defiler.  My guild likes my mystic and thats what counts but it still frustrates me to no end that everytime I read a thread or look up one..its always talking about how inferior we are to Defilers.   I know Defilers are really uber at 80..I played a Dev Buffed one in the beta..it almost made cry at how awesome they are especially with the power usage/regen.  Why cant SOE make us feel like we are needed, they have a given us a neat heal at level 80 but omg at the power drain..why not take the power drain per tick away? Atleast give us something we can brag about. I am down but not out as far as my Mystic goes..but who knows where the future holds.</blockquote><p>Im suprised anyone would turn you down for not being a defiler. You may not be, but youre still a shaman, the best of the 3 healer classes. In terms of sufficient healing, I have only heard the "turn down" stigma associated with Furies. So many times, I have heard that Furies are "extra healing only" healer class with dps available the rest of the time. </p><p>Although, my Warden friend is saying that he doesnt feel that wardens are sufficient anymore to solo heal group instances because of the amount of damage the mobs are putting out. If that's true, then furies are definitely in trouble. I have played both and wardens definitely heal with geater ease than furies, although Back Into the Fray is quite [Removed for Content]! </p><p>Anyway, someone turning you down for being a mystic is a dummy. The only time I see them turning you away is if they already have a mystic in the group. Even in raids, we have substituted a mystic in the MT group, and we beat the Mayongs and Wuoshi just the same. Sure, a Defiler would have been better, but a mystic could still do the job. The same would not be said of subbing a Fury for a Warden in the MT group. But even on that point, Furies are so sought after for DPS groups. Everyone has their place I guess.</p>

[inshiningarmor]

<p>   If Mystics do not debuff power is not an issue.    If you are not running out of power you are not debuffing, something Defilers can do without running out of power and cast them faster.   Toper is great, but when the tank finds out it drops them by 25% haste most do not want it cast on them.    Fortunatly a huge majority do not know about the penalty.   The ones that do WILL NOT let a Mystic in there group as they know how much we depend on it.  They will also watch on raids so you do not cast it on them outside of their group.</p><p>   There are ways to work around the problems of the class as some who have already posted do.    I want to use all the tools the class offers.   Combat dynamics  make Shamen highest in the parse, but Wardens and Templars are better then even Defilers at raw healing.  By a substancial margin.  Inquisitors and Defilers are next.   Then Mystics...  THEN Furies.     If you think  Shamen are the best healing class.... you need to try a Templar or a Warden.   Buffs are the reason Templars and Defilers are required in MT group 99% of raids.   Run ACT with an add on that tracks over heals and see the margin.    </p><p>PS. Defilers have nothing similar to bolster, but they do add close to 1000 more HP's  for EVERY fight, they do have lotto wards that Mystics do not have, they do have buffs that make great offensive procs.</p>

[Banditman]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>   If Mystics do not debuff power is not an issue.    If you are not running out of power you are not debuffing, something Defilers can do without running out of power and cast them faster.   Toper is great, but when the tank finds out it drops them by 25% haste most do not want it cast on them.    Fortunatly a huge majority do not know about the penalty.   The ones that do WILL NOT let a Mystic in there group as they know how much we depend on it.  They will also watch on raids so you do not cast it on them outside of their group.</p><p>   There are ways to work around the problems of the class as some who have already posted do.    I want to use all the tools the class offers.   Combat dynamics  make Shamen highest in the parse, but Wardens and Templars are better then even Defilers at raw healing.  By a substancial margin.  Inquisitors and Defilers are next.   Then Mystics...  THEN Furies.     If you think  Shamen are the best healing class.... you need to try a Templar or a Warden.   Buffs are the reason Templars and Defilers are required in MT group 99% of raids.   Run ACT with an add on that tracks over heals and see the margin.    </p><p>PS. Defilers have nothing similar to bolster, but they do add close to 1000 more HP's  for EVERY fight, they do have lotto wards that Mystics do not have, they do have buffs that make great offensive procs.</p></blockquote>Templars and Inquisitors heal for exactly the same thing within their major lines.  The only advantage in healing that a Templar has is in his healing utility - Divine Arbitration, Mark, Glory, etc.  Yes, those can be considerable.  With the new Tier, Inquisitors got a nice bonus even at that with Inquisition.The same applies to Defilers and Mystics.  Our healing is almost exactly the same within the 4 major lines.  Yes, Defilers got a better set of EoF AA's.  I don't think anyone will argue that we got the (*@# end of the stick on that side of the house.If a tank ever asked me not to cast Stoicism on him I'd ask him whether he preferred Revive instead.  I'm a Tinker as well, so I'd happily FD once he dies and then Revive him.I'd love to know where Defilers are coming up with 1000 HP over what I can buff.  I think the number is more like 400 HP.

[inshiningarmor]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>   If Mystics do not debuff power is not an issue.    If you are not running out of power you are not debuffing, something Defilers can do without running out of power and cast them faster.   Toper is great, but when the tank finds out it drops them by 25% haste most do not want it cast on them.    Fortunatly a huge majority do not know about the penalty.   The ones that do WILL NOT let a Mystic in there group as they know how much we depend on it.  They will also watch on raids so you do not cast it on them outside of their group.</p><p>   There are ways to work around the problems of the class as some who have already posted do.    I want to use all the tools the class offers.   Combat dynamics  make Shamen highest in the parse, but Wardens and Templars are better then even Defilers at raw healing.  By a substancial margin.  Inquisitors and Defilers are next.   Then Mystics...  THEN Furies.     If you think  Shamen are the best healing class.... you need to try a Templar or a Warden.   Buffs are the reason Templars and Defilers are required in MT group 99% of raids.   Run ACT with an add on that tracks over heals and see the margin.    </p><p>PS. Defilers have nothing similar to bolster, but they do add close to 1000 more HP's  for EVERY fight, they do have lotto wards that Mystics do not have, they do have buffs that make great offensive procs.</p></blockquote>Templars and Inquisitors heal for exactly the same thing within their major lines.  The only advantage in healing that a Templar has is in his healing utility - Divine Arbitration, Mark, Glory, etc.  Yes, those can be considerable.  With the new Tier, Inquisitors got a nice bonus even at that with Inquisition.The same applies to Defilers and Mystics.  Our healing is almost exactly the same within the 4 major lines.  Yes, Defilers got a better set of EoF AA's.  I don't think anyone will argue that we got the (*@# end of the stick on that side of the house.If a tank ever asked me not to cast Stoicism on him I'd ask him whether he preferred Revive instead.  I'm a Tinker as well, so I'd happily FD once he dies and then Revive him.I'd love to know where Defilers are coming up with 1000 HP over what I can buff.  I think the number is more like 400 HP.</blockquote><p>  the differences in Templars and Inquisitors is outside of their reactives and direct heals same as the Sahamn class.   Lotto heals are a huge difference HUGE.    The inquisitor makes up for it by adding DPS.   Raid one in awhile and you would know it.    If you get outside of Pugs where most are close to the stat caps you would see the extra HP's a Defiler can add.   I have every healing class now at level 80.   I raid with all of them except my Fury. ( 3 in guild so no need )   Inquisitors will ALWAYS have a place in raids because they are a great healer and make huge increases to DPS.   That being said the healing from a Templar and an Inquis is not close.   </p><p>Shamen have the same wards... their heals are slightly better though... they use LESS power and they also have some reactive wards.    For the first 2 minutes of a tough fight you are right both classes would be close on healing parse... after that first 2 minutes Defliers will still be healing while you are poping potions, manastone, ect for power.    And why would a tank choose Revive over Stoicism?    Better to choose Defiler over Mystic.</p>

[thedu]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>   If Mystics do not debuff power is not an issue.   </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">BS.  This is situational and not an absolute.  I have enough power regen equipment that this is usually not an issue.</span></p><p> If you are not running out of power you are not debuffing, something Defilers can do without running out of power and cast them faster. </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Your basically stating that Defiler's are overpowered then.</span></p><p>  Toper is great, but when the tank finds out it drops them by 25% haste most do not want it cast on them.    Fortunatly a huge majority do not know about the penalty.   The ones that do WILL NOT let a Mystic in there group as they know how much we depend on it.  They will also watch on raids so you do not cast it on them outside of their group.</p><span style="color: #cc0000;">BS. I have not once. That's correct NOT ONCE been told lose Torpor. Any tank that can not hold agro without DPS is just not playing well. If we are facing difficult content and tank tells me not use Torpor then I can tell him/her that we need to modify tactics. Or they can die.</span><p>   There are ways to work around the problems of the class as some who have already posted do.    I want to use all the tools the class offers.   Combat dynamics  make Shamen highest in the parse, but Wardens and Templars are better then even Defilers at raw healing. </p><p><span style="color: #cc0033;">It's usually furies that top combat parses.</span></p><p> By a substancial margin.  Inquisitors and Defilers are next.   Then Mystics...  THEN Furies.     If you think  Shamen are the best healing class.... you need to try a Templar or a Warden.  </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">You need to change your mind set and so do others.  The classes offer solutions that can make any of the HEALERs the best in almost any group.</span></p><p> Buffs are the reason Templars and Defilers are required in MT group 99% of raids.   Run ACT with an add on that tracks over heals and see the margin.   </p><span style="color: #cc0000;">I've been in MT group many a times and so have other Mystics.  Creating the appropriate groups for the appropriate raid situations is time consuming and research intensive -- not just cookie cutter.  There is more to successful raid then just buffs and debuffs.  Granted these help to make them better but not necessarily successful.</span><p>PS. Defilers have nothing similar to bolster, but they do add close to 1000 more HP's  for EVERY fight, they do have lotto wards that Mystics do not have, they do have buffs that make great offensive procs.</p></blockquote>Like I said in an other post.  If you know what Mystics need to be better then actually post it.

[inshiningarmor]

<cite>thedump wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>   If Mystics do not debuff power is not an issue.   </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">BS.  This is situational and not an absolute.  I have enough power regen equipment that this is usually not an issue.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">    <u> In a prolonged fight?   The other class has the same equipment AND better regen for power</u></span></p><p>If you are not running out of power you are not debuffing, something Defilers can do without running out of power and cast them faster. </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Your basically stating that Defiler's are overpowered then.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">   <u>Defilers are the top dog.   Only Templars are close PERIOD.</u></span></p><p>  Toper is great, but when the tank finds out it drops them by 25% haste most do not want it cast on them.    Fortunatly a huge majority do not know about the penalty.   The ones that do WILL NOT let a Mystic in there group as they know how much we depend on it.  They will also watch on raids so you do not cast it on them outside of their group.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">BS. I have not once. That's correct NOT ONCE been told lose Torpor. Any tank that can not hold agro without DPS is just not playing well. If we are facing difficult content and tank tells me not use Torpor then I can tell him/her that we need to modify tactics. Or they can die.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;"> <u>   Because of the increased DPS tanks NEED DPS to keep aggro.    A reduction in auto attack might not hurt a Pally or a SK... but to a leather tank Zerker or Gaurdian?   Try holding aggro with the increased DPS Sorcerers can dish out now.    Taqunts did not go up enough.</u></span></p><p>   There are ways to work around the problems of the class as some who have already posted do.    I want to use all the tools the class offers.   Combat dynamics  make Shamen highest in the parse, but Wardens and Templars are better then even Defilers at raw healing. </p><p><span style="color: #cc0033;">It's usually furies that top combat parses.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0033;">  <u>  I was talking about HEALING parse.</u></span></p><p>By a substancial margin.  Inquisitors and Defilers are next.   Then Mystics...  THEN Furies.     If you think  Shamen are the best healing class.... you need to try a Templar or a Warden.  </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">You need to change your mind set and so do others.  The classes offer solutions that can make any of the HEALERs the best in almost any group.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">      <u>Situations make a difference true, but a great player on a Fury will most likely have a tough time coming close to a terrible Shamen.   Take a Great player and they can make any class look great.   I sometimes use my FURY in the MT group on trivial Contesteds and can top the parse at times.   Defilers and Templars are THE best healers.</u></span></p><p>Buffs are the reason Templars and Defilers are required in MT group 99% of raids.   Run ACT with an add on that tracks over heals and see the margin.   </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">I've been in MT group many a times and so have other Mystics.  Creating the appropriate groups for the appropriate raid situations is time consuming and research intensive -- not just cookie cutter.  There is more to successful raid then just buffs and debuffs.  Granted these help to make them better but not necessarily successful.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">     <u>The problem is this...  You can throw a Templar and a Deflier in and they do well.    You have to BUILD a group around other healers.    Templar Defiler Gardian and fill in the blanks for the rest....    The others as MT healers?  now you have to work at surviving as easily.</u></span></p><p>PS. Defilers have nothing similar to bolster, but they do add close to 1000 more HP's  for EVERY fight, they do have lotto wards that Mystics do not have, they do have buffs that make great offensive procs.</p></blockquote>Like I said in an other post.  If you know what Mystics need to be better then actually post it.</blockquote>

[thedu]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thedump wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>   If Mystics do not debuff power is not an issue.   </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">BS.  This is situational and not an absolute.  I have enough power regen equipment that this is usually not an issue.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">    <u> In a prolonged fight?   The other class has the same equipment AND better regen for power</u></span></p><p><span style="color: #009999;">Yes. In prolonged fights.  What other class? All other classes or just defilers? Prove it.</span></p><p>If you are not running out of power you are not debuffing, something Defilers can do without running out of power and cast them faster. </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Your basically stating that Defiler's are overpowered then.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">   <u>Defilers are the top dog.   Only Templars are close PERIOD.</u></span></p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">Ok, then go play your defiler.</span></p><p>  Toper is great, but when the tank finds out it drops them by 25% haste most do not want it cast on them.    Fortunatly a huge majority do not know about the penalty.   The ones that do WILL NOT let a Mystic in there group as they know how much we depend on it.  They will also watch on raids so you do not cast it on them outside of their group.</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">BS. I have not once. That's correct NOT ONCE been told lose Torpor. Any tank that can not hold agro without DPS is just not playing well. If we are facing difficult content and tank tells me not use Torpor then I can tell him/her that we need to modify tactics. Or they can die.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;"> <u>   Because of the increased DPS tanks NEED DPS to keep aggro.    A reduction in auto attack might not hurt a Pally or a SK... but to a leather tank Zerker or Gaurdian?   Try holding aggro with the increased DPS Sorcerers can dish out now.    Taqunts did not go up enough.</u></span></p><span style="color: #0099cc;">Ok, prove it.  I went in to CoA with a zerker and there was no issue with Stoicism.  Aggro management isn't just about tanks alone - I know my wards are going to pull aggro as well as the Runic buff. This is critical in raids.  If a mage goes full out at the wrong time - that's the mages fault and not the tanks. If I ward at the wrong time this will be an issue as well - so will bolstering.</span><p>   There are ways to work around the problems of the class as some who have already posted do.    I want to use all the tools the class offers.   Combat dynamics  make Shamen highest in the parse, but Wardens and Templars are better then even Defilers at raw healing. </p><p><span style="color: #cc0033;">It's usually furies that top combat parses.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0033;">  <u>  I was talking about HEALING parse.</u></span></p><p><span style="color: #339900;">If a Cleric or Druid isn't out parsing me then they are doing something wrong.  I don't expect top any heal parses because they don't take debuffs into account.  Of course this isn't always true and there are times especially in MT groups where I can top parses because I am more focused on healing.</span></p><p>By a substancial margin.  Inquisitors and Defilers are next.   Then Mystics...  THEN Furies.     If you think  Shamen are the best healing class.... you need to try a Templar or a Warden.  </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">You need to change your mind set and so do others.  The classes offer solutions that can make any of the HEALERs the best in almost any group.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">      <u>Situations make a difference true, but a great player on a Fury will most likely have a tough time coming close to a terrible Shamen.   Take a Great player and they can make any class look great.   I sometimes use my FURY in the MT group on trivial Contesteds and can top the parse at times.   Defilers and Templars are THE best healers.</u></span></p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">No. The player makes the best healer - not always gear or spells.  Mostly your comparing orange and apples. They are healers but different types of healers. </span></p><p>Buffs are the reason Templars and Defilers are required in MT group 99% of raids.   Run ACT with an add on that tracks over heals and see the margin.   </p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">I've been in MT group many a times and so have other Mystics.  Creating the appropriate groups for the appropriate raid situations is time consuming and research intensive -- not just cookie cutter.  There is more to successful raid then just buffs and debuffs.  Granted these help to make them better but not necessarily successful.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">     <u>The problem is this...  You can throw a Templar and a Deflier in and they do well.    You have to BUILD a group around other healers.    Templar Defiler Gardian and fill in the blanks for the rest....    The others as MT healers?  now you have to work at surviving as easily.</u></span></p><p><span style="color: #0099ff;">Again more opinion then proof.  It takes more then just having a particular "class" in a group to make it a successful raid.</span></p><p>PS. Defilers have nothing similar to bolster, but they do add close to 1000 more HP's  for EVERY fight, they do have lotto wards that Mystics do not have, they do have buffs that make great offensive procs.</p></blockquote>Like I said in an other post.  If you know what Mystics need to be better then actually post it.</blockquote></blockquote>

[Bathtubtina]

<p>I guess my whole point in my earlier post is can't we post things that are good every once in awhile? </p><p>I do love my mystic a lot and I dont intend on betraying, SOE may decide to make us the OP healer again. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Banditman]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>   If Mystics do not debuff power is not an issue.    If you are not running out of power you are not debuffing, something Defilers can do without running out of power and cast them faster.   Toper is great, but when the tank finds out it drops them by 25% haste most do not want it cast on them.    Fortunatly a huge majority do not know about the penalty.   The ones that do WILL NOT let a Mystic in there group as they know how much we depend on it.  They will also watch on raids so you do not cast it on them outside of their group.</p><p>   There are ways to work around the problems of the class as some who have already posted do.    I want to use all the tools the class offers.   Combat dynamics  make Shamen highest in the parse, but Wardens and Templars are better then even Defilers at raw healing.  By a substancial margin.  Inquisitors and Defilers are next.   Then Mystics...  THEN Furies.     If you think  Shamen are the best healing class.... you need to try a Templar or a Warden.   Buffs are the reason Templars and Defilers are required in MT group 99% of raids.   Run ACT with an add on that tracks over heals and see the margin.    </p><p>PS. Defilers have nothing similar to bolster, but they do add close to 1000 more HP's  for EVERY fight, they do have lotto wards that Mystics do not have, they do have buffs that make great offensive procs.</p></blockquote>Templars and Inquisitors heal for exactly the same thing within their major lines.  The only advantage in healing that a Templar has is in his healing utility - Divine Arbitration, Mark, Glory, etc.  Yes, those can be considerable.  With the new Tier, Inquisitors got a nice bonus even at that with Inquisition.The same applies to Defilers and Mystics.  Our healing is almost exactly the same within the 4 major lines.  Yes, Defilers got a better set of EoF AA's.  I don't think anyone will argue that we got the (*@# end of the stick on that side of the house.If a tank ever asked me not to cast Stoicism on him I'd ask him whether he preferred Revive instead.  I'm a Tinker as well, so I'd happily FD once he dies and then Revive him.I'd love to know where Defilers are coming up with 1000 HP over what I can buff.  I think the number is more like 400 HP.</blockquote><p>  the differences in Templars and Inquisitors is outside of their reactives and direct heals same as the Sahamn class.   Lotto heals are a huge difference HUGE.    <span style="color: #6600ff;">Which is exactly what I said.</span>  The inquisitor makes up for it by adding DPS.   Raid one in awhile and you would know it.    <span style="color: #6600ff;">I raid plenty.  Are we going to get into that tired arguement again?  Instead of making assumptions about my playstyle perhaps you might ask.</span>  If you get outside of Pugs where most are close to the stat caps you would see the extra HP's a Defiler can add.   <span style="color: #6600ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #6600ff;">More unsubstantiated verbage with no data to back it up.  Here's some actual numbers.  I'm going to use T7 numbers because I haven't completed my worksheet with the T8 Masters yet.  I want to be sure I'm comparing apples to apples.  Even if you assume that each point of STA only adds 3 HP . . . </span></p><span style="color: #6600ff;">Defilers buff:  666 + 964 = 1630 HPMystics buff:  803 + (151 * 3) = 1256 HPA difference of less than 400 HP.  Would you care to share your math on how you got to 1000 HP difference?</span><p>I have every healing class now at level 80.   <span style="color: #6600ff;">Wow.  That's pretty amazing.  Leveling a toon from 70 to 80 every three days since the expansion released while raiding?  That's a bit much to swallow . . .</span> I raid with all of them except my Fury. ( 3 in guild so no need )   Inquisitors will ALWAYS have a place in raids because they are a great healer and make huge increases to DPS.   That being said the healing from a Templar and an Inquis is not close.   </p><p>Shamen have the same wards... their heals are slightly better though... they use LESS power and they also have some reactive wards.    <span style="color: #6600ff;">Yep, I agree, there is a power difference.  I think I've been saying that since, well, forever.  The heal "difference" is not a beneficial difference however.  Yes, a Defiler heals for more raw HP, but they have longer recast times.  When you actually analyze HPS for the Shaman class, you find there really isn't any difference in the Defiler and Mystic heals.</span>  For the first 2 minutes of a tough fight you are right both classes would be close on healing parse... after that first 2 minutes Defliers will still be healing while you are poping potions, manastone, ect for power.    <span style="color: #6600ff;">I don't know about you, but I'm not waiting two minutes to begin doing the things required to keep my power levels up.  I've said all along that Mystics could use some help in fights of extended duration.  Is this your only real complaint?  If so, let's not blow it out of proportion.  How many fights have you run out of power on?  </span>And why would a tank choose Revive over Stoicism?    Better to choose Defiler over Mystic.  <span style="color: #6600ff;">Because a Mystic is what is available.  You call me, you're calling a Mystic, not a Defiler.  If someone prefers a Defiler, more power to them.  The ability to heal is far less the class, far more the player behind the keyboard.</span></p></blockquote>

[iduckie]

<cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I had a look at the Defiler-forum earlier...and read a betray-thread there.The person got a few answers..and one was like this...and it didnt feel very nice reading it.</p><p>Made me wonder ( im quite new mystic ) is this correct?</p><p>--------------------------------------- copied this from that thread</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Better at SOLOING that is it.   1 EoF line ( combat ) all of them take.   The other 3 are up for grabs.    Mystics buff against diminishing curves and they use MORE power for heals and debuffs with no way to regen the power.   Except for the 4 combat skills, and Ancestry, EoF tree is garbage for them.   <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>Defilers are much better in groups and raids.   MUCH BETTER.</b>  </span>  I have both and my boyfriend has both. ( both of his are raid level )  Defilers have a MUCH better EoF line.   My boyfriend is at 136 AA's and still has 70/54 assigned.   The rest is garbage and he does not bother to assign them.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">If you solo alot or are a low level Mystics are the way to go.    <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>If you like haveing great abilities, better debuffs, better buffs, better heals and power regen stay Defiler.</b> </span>When we box both Mystics we can duo Karnors with little risk, so they are nice DPS.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">PS  one EoF line is reducing casting timers and costs of Rezzing.   One line is adding a 100 point ward on your heals ( 5 points=100 points ) that only wards the type of damage the cure is.   One is the combat line,  ( which does NOT keep dogdog alive longer ) the last one is augmenting, increases fortelling, adds a small amount of Wis/int on their avatar line, SoW to 40%, <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Increases their worthless healing beaver<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />, Increases bolster ( nice one finally ) </span></b>and increases the amount of their stunning ward ( you want to be stunned for 45 seconds?)<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  No attack, no debuffing no nothing... insta AFK break</span></p><p>-----------------------------------------</p><p>The reason it feels bad is cause i just came from being a mystic- defiler and now back to mystic....and i LOVE it.I dont feel like we have all that bad stuff...i have an easier time healing actually.And i dont feel like this is correct at all....anyone?</p></blockquote><p>BAH! I don't like being complared to a Defiler.. I think it's down right stupid.. no? Fine.. it's pointless.</p><p>I betrayed to Mystic shortly after they released the Betrayal quests to all levels and I don't regret spending a week trying to solo my way into Qeynos.. I didn't like that they added a pacted effect (Take life to give life) to the only heals they had.. I personally had a hard time not dying because I didn't have enough health to heal! </p><p>Whom ever wrote the post really doesn't have much affinity for Mystic obivously and I don't mean to offend anyone </p><p>Mystic's have ALOT to offer.. I'll begin with my favorites of course </p><p>Avatar + Foretelling + Bolster + Torpor/Stoicism + A big fat Ward = God like love! </p><p>Alright.. </p><p>Shaman's alone are awesome and in the end or at the end of a raid the only thing that matters is whose still awake or sober enough to heal </p><p>BTW.. Did I tell you how much I love Mystics and Shammy buffs? </p>

[Kaharthemad]

It boils do to what you enjoy. I would never consider switching to Defiler, and yes I have tried it and found it lacking.  As Mystics, Do we have problems? Yeah, we do, for instance  we  have a REZ line that looked like it was made by some 14 year with ADDHD and a slight retardation in his mental faculties. I mean really, does anyone have this AA line? Cause if I am rezzing in a raid it means that everyone is dead, including the pallys and the dirges and I now have all the time in the world to get your corpses up and moving.There will always be a Defiler vs Mystic threads I doubt we will ever see the end to them. my suggestion to you is play what you like.  Ignore everyone elses opinion since they dont pay your sony bill every month. Its your fun, your money. do it like you want and ignore the doom sayers.

[ottugi]

<cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #cc6600;"> <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Increases their worthless healing beaver<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />, I</span></b></span></p></blockquote>I know people tend to ignore some of our spells butI try to find reasons for all the spells I'm given.I tend to use the beaver all the time, however gimpedsome think it is.Faster casting speed & recast less than 30sec or heal amt boost willmake me drool if that ever happens.Who can say no to free(almost free since it costs little pwr) heal over time group heal?One particular use find that I absolutely love for this iswhen I have to solo and if a particular hard nuker named likes to throw stunspecially in the beginning and I keep dying since nuker hits hard & fastwhile I'm stunned, here is what I do.Preward of course, Slothful spirit to dmg some while I'm stunned a bit,then hit the healing pet to cover me a bit while I'm stunned.That small amount of coverage alone meant the difference in success and I have the healing pet to thank for some fableds.Don't underestimate any spells because you haven't found good uses for them.If you think that defilers get something better, then I ask why try to compareon an equal footing when they are a different class and there's a lot to mystic class that defilers lack as well; we might as well be just a class called shaman if you want to be equal in every terms.

[GidionSWE]

i might be wrong but doesnt the badger only have a 5m heal radius? Thats its biggest limitation...and teh reason i dont even have it on my hotbar anymore.

[ecoskii]

<p>If you have probs with power management try to persuade, bully, sulk until your raid leader gets you 2 set items from ToNT - with the power proc over time and a little bit of timing you will frequently finish RoK instance nameds on 90%+ mana.   I doubt the ToNT grp heal cloak or hammer will be beaten anytime soon either.</p><p>Add on 2-3 legendary overloaded heal items + EoF fabled and wait for the next expansion.....  the 2 RoK legendary chain heal sets i have seen look worthless for melee shammies and I don't see many non-hardcore guilds getting beyond T1 raids (let alone t2) anytime soon </p><p>It's Monday morning.... I'M MEANT TO BE GRUMPY....</p>

[Verrie77]

<p><span style="color: #ff66ff;">Ive got a few power procing items now on me when im groups. and im never..or atleast almost never out of mana. I find that the other healer is more oop than i am.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff66ff;">I dont think the bear's healing range is only 5 meter. Perhaps 15-20m.I haev to say again...I had a harder time healing as Defiler than i have as mystic.You cant WARD ppl back to full health if somthign goes wrong...thats my point....and we do have some small regens.Not big no...but its very helpfull.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff66ff;">Im mostly used to being a fulltime Fury...so im still learning this. Its totally diffrent...but i like it.Long live the the Beaverform funspell...I love it.</span></p>

[Banditman]

Yea, the range on the Attendant line is quite low.  20m is max heal range and it's nowhere near that.  5-10m sounds - and feels - about right.

[Rayche]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea, the range on the Attendant line is quite low.  20m is max heal range and it's nowhere near that.  5-10m sounds - and feels - about right.</blockquote>Yeah, but the good news is, the bear moves with you so you can control who he's healing. (Unlike the defilers "Totem" style rooted in place healing dealie.)The bad news is, the bear moves with you, so there's no stepping out of AOE range, dropping the heal totem and keeping it safe for people to run to for heals.OH!P.S.At least it's not some ridiculously large tree thing that pops up in front of everybody's screen causing them to fight blind for 10 seconds solid.

[Banditman]

I detest that tree.  I know it's valuable . . . but oh so annoying.