Question about the timeline split

[Zikten]

So in the EQ1 timeline, zebuxaruk stayed sleeping and his knowledge was not given to the mortals, correct? But then we have this other screwed up timeline where everything went all crazy. In this timeline, did the adventurers succeed in learning zebuxaruk's secrets? Is that what caused everything to happen?

[Cusashorn]

<p>no. Zeb never released his secrets to anyone. Druzzil Ro caused the time split by causing a time paradox by sending the adventurers back in time.</p><p>Lets see... if I remember what the developers said correctly, EQ2's timeline began as a result of us adventurers never reaching the Plane of Time as a result of setting the clock back.</p>

[Eriol]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>no. Zeb never released his secrets to anyone. Druzzil Ro caused the time split by causing a time paradox by sending the adventurers back in time.</p><p>Lets see... if I remember what the developers said correctly, EQ2's timeline began as a result of us adventurers never reaching the Plane of Time as a result of setting the clock back.</p></blockquote>I think you mean that the other way around Cusa, where our/EQ2's timeline began when the spell was cast, but nothing happened in our time, so we DID wake up Zeb, stuff after PoP did NOT happen (or rather, some of it COULD have, it actually works both ways in that they're allowed to pick and choose what DID happen), etc.

[Sapphirius]

This brings to mind the Words of Zebuxoruk where he sees the parchment ripped in two, one folding in on itself and one continuing on: Eq1 and EQ2's timelines respectively. Do you have more information on this, Cusa?

[Maergoth]

The simple fact that the words of Zebuxoruk got out at all is simple proof that Zeb did escape and is somewhere out there.. that's pretty clearly stated and some of his prophecies were studied by that one vampire in Mistmoore Castle.. the sage. Simply put.. he said he had the secret to becoming more powerful than the gods.The drive for adventurers to rescue him to learn it, the adventure along the way was in fact the secret he held.. the effort that will pay off in the end. Mortals destroyed the gods, and in our timeline.. Druzzil's spell pretty much just fizzled.So the gods were recreated-ish somehow between then and their meeting in the tome of destiny.. which might be why they all look younger judging by the pictures and representations of their avatars.. EQ2's timeline split immediately as the spell was cast.. "..And one parchment continued on, while the other curled back into itself".. the curling one was EQ1, as technically.. adventurers not knowing better would just keep repeating those events, which most did for farming purposes and only stopped because of outer influence of the person playing.  Our timeline continuing from there.. gods dead and all.. means that they had to have been fixed up, and zeb would have to be free.. or Druzzil would have had no reason to attempt the spell in the first place.Just be careful, people hold lots of controversy about all of this.. I've spent endless hours "Studying" and discussing a lot of this. It can get pretty out of hand <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Eriol]

The Gods never died Maergoth, only their physical forms were defeated.  It's kind of like an Illusionist making their persona duplicate, and you defeating that.  You didn't really defeat the illusionist, only a manifestation of their power.  It's a little more ethereal than that, in that the Gods themselves are transcendent, and thus not physical beings at all, but I hope that gets the idea across.  Though I THINK it was the Tome of Destiny discussion which showed that killing those manifestations (in other context you'd call them Avatars, but in EQ1 and 2 that's a completely different concept) does drain them of some of their power, weakening them.  I'm going off of pure memory here though, so somebody jump in if I got something wrong.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>no. Zeb never released his secrets to anyone. Druzzil Ro caused the time split by causing a time paradox by sending the adventurers back in time.</p><p>Lets see... if I remember what the developers said correctly, EQ2's timeline began as a result of us adventurers never reaching the Plane of Time as a result of setting the clock back.</p></blockquote>I think you mean that the other way around Cusa, where our/EQ2's timeline began when the spell was cast, but nothing happened in our time, so we DID wake up Zeb, stuff after PoP did NOT happen (or rather, some of it COULD have, it actually works both ways in that they're allowed to pick and choose what DID happen), etc.</blockquote>Well I obviously remember incorrectly then. :p It was a 50/50 toss up. I just couldn't remember which it was.

[Saroc_Luclin]

Actually, though I don't think it was ever officially confirmed which game got which part of the parchment, EQLive being the one that rolled back does make sense when put that way. (Though I doubt the gods really 'died'. Even in EQII's time they all, including ones that participated in Plane of Time, had major influence in events up until they took their vacation, see the 3rd Rallosian War) In the EQLive timeline, people would break into PoTime, rescue Zeb, and Druzzil Ro would show up and muddle their memories and boot them back to PoK around the time they first entered the PoTime. Since PoTime exists outside of Time itself, no time, nor anything else has occurred while the adventurers were trying to free Zeb. The adventurers, confused a bit (but still with the loot they got from Time, just not sure how they got it) would take some time to regroup, reexamine what happened, and make another attempt to get to Zeb. Since the only way they know to get into PoTime is throuhg a specific series of events, the Plane is effectively reset each time they go in, and eventually Zeb is freed and Druzzil shows up again and boots us back out again. Eventually, more threats begin to rise, and Adventurers have to shift their attention elsewhere (primarily with the rise of the Muramite threat on Taelosia, then the threat from the Dragons in the Nest, then Mayong's threat first on all of Norrath, then on the planes themselves, and now the two-fold threat from Meldrath and the Sleeper). In EQII's timeline, Druzzil Ro's attempt to muddy the adventurers memories failed for whatever reasons (some of them must have had *SMURF* good resists. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), so Zeb's knowledge got out relatively untouched, and the Plane of Time prison was likely shattered (or severely damaged). The Gods have to go into major damage control mode, and other events go differently from EQLive's time. (The Discord invasion occurred, but Mayong's ascent into Godhood probably went differently, and there are no signs that he ever sieged Solteris; the Sleeper did seem to show up on Faydwer though, by the name of the crater in Steamfont. EQII's changed Ak'Anon may have also come about due to Meldrath's events we see in EQLive at the moment) Anyways, guess I'm done muddying the discussion for now. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Saroc_Luclin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, though I don't think it was ever officially confirmed which game got which part of the parchment, EQLive being the one that rolled back does make sense when put that way. (Though I doubt the gods really 'died'. Even in EQII's time they all, including ones that participated in Plane of Time, had major influence in events up until they took their vacation, see the 3rd Rallosian War)In the EQLive timeline, people would break into PoTime, rescue Zeb, and Druzzil Ro would show up and muddle their memories and boot them back to PoK around the time they first entered the PoTime. Since PoTime exists outside of Time itself, no time, nor anything else has occurred while the adventurers were trying to free Zeb.The adventurers, confused a bit (but still with the loot they got from Time, just not sure how they got it) would take some time to regroup, reexamine what happened, and make another attempt to get to Zeb. Since the only way they know to get into PoTime is throuhg a specific series of events, the Plane is effectively reset each time they go in, and eventually Zeb is freed and Druzzil shows up again and boots us back out again.Eventually, more threats begin to rise, and Adventurers have to shift their attention elsewhere (primarily with the rise of the Muramite threat on Taelosia, then the threat from the Dragons in the Nest, then Mayong's threat first on all of Norrath, then on the planes themselves, and now the two-fold threat from Meldrath and the Sleeper).In EQII's timeline, Druzzil Ro's attempt to muddy the adventurers memories failed for whatever reasons (some of them must have had *SMURF* good resists. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> ), so Zeb's knowledge got out relatively untouched, and the Plane of Time prison was likely shattered (or severely damaged). The Gods have to go into major damage control mode, and other events go differently from EQLive's time. (The Discord invasion occurred, but Mayong's ascent into Godhood probably went differently, and there are no signs that he ever sieged Solteris; the Sleeper did seem to show up on Faydwer though, by the name of the crater in Steamfont. EQII's changed Ak'Anon may have also come about due to Meldrath's events we see in EQLive at the moment)Anyways, guess I'm done muddying the discussion for now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Yeah that's what I always thought too. It makes more sense for EQ2 to happen from a timeline where Plane of Time was never invaded, because in EQlive, time continued to march on (in a real life sense) and the players retain thier memories of what happened inside. If I remember correctly, your character had full knowledge of everything that happened after you were sent back in time, but the rest of the world did not. Those players would eventually go onto fight the Legion of Mura Mata and everything else that has occured as Everquest continued to role out expansions beyond Everquest 2's release and the Plane of Power storyline.</p><p>Those people in the world who did not know about the Plane of Time could eventually split into the EQ2 timeline (even if they exist in both).</p>

[Eriol]

I don't know if it's ever been EXPLICITLY said, but considering that Zeb is out, and you can talk to him in EQ2's timeline, I'd say that EQ2 is definitely the timeline where he was freed and Druzzil's spell failed.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if it's ever been EXPLICITLY said, but considering that Zeb is out, and you can talk to him in EQ2's timeline, I'd say that EQ2 is definitely the timeline where he was freed and Druzzil's spell failed.</blockquote>Well, how would you say her spell failed if she always set back time?

[Eriol]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if it's ever been EXPLICITLY said, but considering that Zeb is out, and you can talk to him in EQ2's timeline, I'd say that EQ2 is definitely the timeline where he was freed and Druzzil's spell failed.</blockquote>Well, how would you say her spell failed if she always set back time?</blockquote>You have to look at it from a "lore" perspective and less "game mechanics" perspective.  Hence why Nagafen is still alive, and not dead after 1000s of raids on him.In EQ1, essentially nobody EVER killed Quarm.  Zeb was NEVER freed at all.  He was briefly freed, then Druzzil cast her spell, which while it "seemed" like it succeeded, in fact, it "worked" in one timeline, but unintentionally CAUSED a second to be created where the spell was never cast (or failed, or whatever terminology you'd like to use).  Or perhaps did work in that their actions were "undone" but they retained their knowledge of what happened.  Either way, Zeb is NOT free in EQ1's timeline.But in EQ2's timeline, the Plane of Time raiders succeeded, and he was freed.  He then subsequently came to the Isle of Mara through unknown means, and at some point prior sealed his knowledge within Chel'drak for safekeeping.  Upon his defeat, the knowledge was freed and Zeb remembered who he was.  The later consequences are "to be seen" but we can safely say that Zeb is free in EQ2's timeline, and thus the Plane of Time raiders succeeded, and thus THIS is the timeline where Druzzil's spell did not roll back time.

[Nocturnal Aby]

<p>I can't argue one way or the other, since all I know for certain is that a time split did occur, and that the timelines between EQ and EQ2 are not necessarily the same.</p><p>That said, I'd like to point out that it seems many of you are basing your arguements off of the fact that works of Zeboxxoruk as well as the deity himself have been seen in game.  This doesn't necessarily mean that the adventurers in the plane of time were the ones who freed him.  We have copius amounts of evidence to indicate that the planes themselves seem to be in a state of dissarray, with planes leaking into the mortal realm, and other planes breaking up into shards of their former states.  I don't recall any source mentioning that Druzzil's spell failed, only that the power of the spell created two seperate timelines.  When playing with time, I imagine it might not take much to cause some serious damage.</p><p>From what we've seen, it might not be too much of a stretch conclude that the Ungod was able to escape because the forces that held him in place were weakened, if not outright destroyed, and he was able to free himself.</p><p>Other, though even more discouraging hypotheses include other forces freeing Zeb, such as the Shadowed Men, the Nizari, or forces yet to be encounterd.</p><p>Just throwing some ideas into the mix, as I've stated, I have no idea what actually happened, so I can't really do anything but offer plausible theories.</p>

[Maergoth]

I can't explain it much easier than I did.. In EQ1, the gods were killed.. that's the initial reason for Druzzil sending us back.If one timeline continued from there on that path, it continued with the gods killed. She wouldn't have risked a spell like that if it wasn't a serious situation, and she states that we've destroyed the bands holding most of Norrath together.Zeb is free in EQ2, he was freed and there's no reason to believe otherwise. The gods being dead.. I assume they were recreated, as none of the elemental gods that created them in the first place were killed.Her spell didn't effect us, we ended up leaving plane of time, chilling, and then hell breaking lose shortly after.

[Cusashorn]

The gods were never killed. Only Zebuxoruk contained the knowledge to destroy an actual diety from existance. The players only defeated thier physical avatars, just weakening them.

[Tyt]

<p>This is why you dont argue time mechanics AT ALL. You wanna get really technical on it Quantum theory states that there are an infinite number of timelines all of them steming from the choices we all make and the effects of those choices. This can be applied to the games lore as well, EQ1's timeline did happen as well as EQ2's there just alternate realities and seperate from each other. Simple explanation is you go to the store, in one timeline you get hit by a bus and live out your life as a vegetable. Timeline 2, you go to the store and buy groceries, come home and play EQ2. Timeline 3, you go to the store and the gnomes try to blow up the moon again, causing you to don your raid gear and kick there tiny little arses back to the Baubleshire. So on and so forth with infinite possibilites. This is of course an exaggeration but hopefully you can see my point........................<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> Frikkin Gnomes.</span></p>