PvP - Vets vs Noobs [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Kust

12-01-2007, 08:06 PM

Here is an interesting debate that usually comes up in some form or another, but I think that I can help boil it down. There are two schools of thought when it comes to being powerful in EQ2 PvP. <ol><li>Time: There are players who have spent a long time making their characters powerful. Through gear, AA, and spell/ability upgrades, these players have clawed their way to the top of the food chain. Their method for becoming powerful has merit; they have put the time in, and now they should reap the benefits.</li><li>Skill: Another set of players feel that PvP success should be based more on skill than on time spent. This group feels that class knowledge, strategy, and timing should determine the outcome of a battle, not simply who is wearing what. This belief also has merit because success in a PvP battle depends more on what one does in those heated moments during the fight than the countless hours that came before it.</li></ol> What I mean by skill is hard to define, but I will try to clarify. Imagine a DPS class going against a healer class. As the fight begins, the DPS class spams all their abilities, and the healer, who is quickly dropped to orange health, responds by spamming all their heals. As the fight continues, the DPS continues to utilizes their abilities as they cool-down, but the healer, now has the advantage of surviving that first burst and can stay ahead of the damage easily. The DPS, seeing that the healer has them beat if the fight continues this way decides to stop using their abilities and relies on auto-attack to drop health more slowly. The Healer will likely not think to heal until in yellow or orange again. The DPS's continues to auto-attack until the healer's health is high yellow, then the DPS spams all their abilities again, which have been given a chance to cool-down. Now, the healer, who is already in yellow, has been caught off guard and the combination of all the DPS's abilities has managed to kill the healer.This is a quick, crude example of the kind of skill that I am referring to. The DPS has adapted to a losing situation and devised a strategy to win* As it stands now, EQ2 PvP is based primarily on time. Those players who have spent the time to gear up (gear meaning everything from equipment to AA) have the clear advantage. Most people, who typically happen to be well-geared themselves, feel that this is as it should be. I personally am of the second school of thought. As more of a casual player, I believe everyone should at least have the chance at a fair fight in PvP, and the way it is now, PvP is simply inaccessible to new players. I suppose that when designing the game, the devs probably imagined that only an elite hardcore few would spend so much time developing their characters, but what should be the exception has become the rule. The vast majority of players wandering Norrath would not be caught dead in anything less than MC and a full compliment of Adept III’s. There are of course players who fall into both categories, they have spent time developing their characters and have learned to play their classes to the fullest ability. I am not saying that those people do not exist, I am just saying that gear probably helps more in PvP than skill. There are those that will say that because they put the time in and suffered through the awkward in -between age of noobhood, that everyone else should have to as well. Do you really feel that that is a good way to think? Perpetuate hardship because you have already endured it? If it sucked when you were going through it, then why should it continue? There are those who will say that it is their right to be more powerful; they have put in the time and therefore deserve to have an advantage. These people have a point, I just don’t agree with it, for two reasons. <ol><li>It makes the game unappealing to new users, and therefore discourages growth in the game community. EQ2 competes with another MMORPG that I won’t mention here, and even though EQ2 is technologically superior, more in depth, and carries EQ 1’s legacy, it still only holds a fraction of the market share of that other game. (see MMOGchart.com) I for one would like to see the EQ2 community grow instead of dwindle. </li><li>Unbalanced PvP is less fun for everyone. It’s obvious to say that losing in a PvP battle sucks, but what is less obvious is that winning a fight way too easily isn’t all that great either. As it stands now, my main character is fairly well geared (T3 MC set, mostly M1 Spells, and 23 AA at level 22) Development-wise, I think that puts me about average, so I win a lot of fights and I lose a lot of fights. The fights I enjoy most are not the ones where I just dominate my opponent in a matter of seconds; no the most enjoyable ones are the ones that are challenging. Even if I lose, as long as I lose well, that is still fun. (and of course losing in a matter of seconds completely sucks)</li></ol> Well, that’s about all that I can think of for now. Looking forward to some responses (agreements or otherwise – anyone who watches Nagafen’s /3 will know that I like to argue)*Edited to clarify what kind of skill I was referring to

Jeridor

12-01-2007, 08:10 PM

I don't say this as an attack, but my first response to this was, "Hmm, another person saying things should match the way they play."I shouldn't be surprised, but it seems like a whole ton of people don't debate about right or wrong, they debate about my situation versus your situation.Personally, I think time is a valuable commodity and I back the "time" argument. I don't have a lot of time, so I'd benefit if it worked the way you'd like it to. However, I don't think the value of strategy and player experience/skill can be overlooked.

12-02-2007, 12:01 AM

I am at a strong disadvantage now, as far as time goes, as I can barely log in a couple of times a week... yet, as a veteran of EQ and plenty other MMORPGs, I think time should be the factor. Skill is for FPSs. RPGs are all about making your char stronger over TIME.

ckl

12-02-2007, 12:52 AM

<cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am at a strong disadvantage now, as far as time goes, as I can barely log in a couple of times a week... yet, as a veteran of EQ and plenty other MMORPGs, I think time should be the factor. Skill is for FPSs. RPGs are all about making your char stronger over TIME. </blockquote>I think that's bass ackwards. Ideally, it shouldn't take a year to reach the pinnacle of a game, where gear and level are equal and the fights are decided by skill (or in the imperfect MMO, a combination of skill and class). I read your argument as: "I've got all fabled raid armor and thus should have no trouble beating all the classes that are the scissors to my rock." You say you've played a few MMOs, and if you did you'd know that skill is certainly not under only the purview of FPS games.As for the original post, I quite agree. Time spent should give you a marginal advantage, but certainly not too much of one that it's insurmountable by a more skillful person.

12-02-2007, 03:07 AM

<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am at a strong disadvantage now, as far as time goes, as I can barely log in a couple of times a week... yet, as a veteran of EQ and plenty other MMORPGs, I think time should be the factor. Skill is for FPSs. RPGs are all about making your char stronger over TIME. </blockquote>I think that's bass ackwards. Ideally, it shouldn't take a year to reach the pinnacle of a game, where gear and level are equal and the fights are decided by skill (or in the imperfect MMO, a combination of skill and class). I read your argument as: "I've got all fabled raid armor and thus should have no trouble beating all the classes that are the scissors to my rock." You say you've played a few MMOs, and if you did you'd know that skill is certainly not under only the purview of FPS games.As for the original post, I quite agree. Time spent should give you a marginal advantage, but certainly not too much of one that it's insurmountable by a more skillful person. </blockquote>No, you are right, it shouldn't take a year to reach the pinnacle of a game. As a matter of fact, the pinnacle of an MMORPG should never be reached... constant, MEANINGFUL character growth is what keeps many of us here...The second part - yes. My argument is exactly that. I should be able to beat down someone with worst gear than I. Sure, gear should not be just a function of time - it should take some brain to get gear in an MMORPG, and that really is where EQ2 - and all the other big MMORPGs out there - fails. But once you have gotten to a higher level and have better gear, you should be able to chew lowbies for breakfast without breaking a sweat. Again, to me that has always been a basic tenant of MMORPGs and I feel EQ2 is already going out of its way to break it, by limiting pvp by level range. I played on EQ pvp on SZ, which was not level limited. I got owned by reds and I owned greys. I loved it. No complains from my side there - nothing more fun than dropping an entire zone worth of lowbies just to see their higher-level friends rush in to kill you. It gave a sense of community. It gave people at level cap a reason to hang out in lowbie areas and "protect" their zones. You talk about skill. If with skill you mean "knowledge of game mechanics, classes, spells, abilities and geography, I agree with you. If with skill you mean hand-eye coordination and quick reaction times, I do not. Those belong to FPSs. But regardless... skill in an MMORPG is also "social skills". Red player griefing you? Get some higher lev friends. Don't have higher level friend? Die. It's perfectly fine with me. To me, it all comes down to character growth. Unless there is a reason to beat content, there is no reason to play. And the main reason (aside a desire to "see more of the game&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> has always been character growth. By asking for a level playing field in pvp, you are asking them to trivialize character growth. You mention "a marginal advantage". Heck no... a marginal advantage is not why we play, night after night. I do realize it is a tradeoff, and the tradeoff is the main reason pvp and MMORPGs never sit well, with some people. But if I have to pick, I'd rather have meaningful character growth (hence, some system where time spent is rewarded), rather than a "skill dependent" pvp experience. And in regards to other MMORPGs - I have played, as far as I know, all of the major ones. Some for long and some only occasionally. EQ2, by limiting pvp by level, has gone out of its way to make time spent irrelevant in pvp - heck, someone who has spent more time than you levelling can not even attack you...Now, EQ2 has other problems that confund the issue. In other games, someone who had been online for longer could have probably killed you in a split second, but had no incentive to do so (see, for example, SZ on EQ). But in EQ2, thanks to level locking, twinks have plenty of incentives to keep killing lowbies, over and over and over. Now, that is truly messed up. But making pvp skill-dependent? Please, please, no.

Zheen

12-02-2007, 04:35 AM

I think titles and level locking is the only two things that kill growth on PvP Servers ..especially Venekor

Lavenderboi

12-02-2007, 07:12 AM

<cite>Kust wrote:</cite><blockquote> I am just saying that gear probably helps more in PvP than skill.</blockquote>I couldn't agree more. It has gotten to the point, that I'll look players up on EQ2players, to see if they are completely fabled, before I'll fight them. My skill, or lack thereof, has little to do with winning or losing a fight when it comes to an "average geared" player fighting a Paris Hilton toon. (One that got all their "uber" gear from "Daddy"...better known as a high level alt). Players may get upset when I run, but I'm sorry, suicide is NOT a mark of noblility in my opinion. The general reply I get when I say something like this is "Learn to play your class", but I've always felt that was a cop out. When an opponent's resists are through the roof, due to full fabled gear, and none of my spells/CA's will land, that has nothing to do with my ability to play my class. Besides, if skill were truly the deciding factor, then why does it seem the majority of top ranked players are, conincidentally, generally twinked and of the same few classes? While skill is incredibly important, I feel that gear helps more in PVP than skill. My two cents. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

wellehad0

12-02-2007, 12:26 PM

what is all this talk of skill about.. please tell me what kind of skill are we talking about..... there is no skill in RPG its who has better gear and more powerful spells.... yes there are buffs and debuffs yet that does not require skill to use at the righ ttime.. all it needs is jsut that you need to know your toon better.... if you have so much skill then you would know that you need to gear up then your skill will only come into play when both toons are in equal gear

Roald

12-02-2007, 12:52 PM

This topic is always gonna be very hard to answer, as there are some many differing levels of skill and of how geared up you are.IMO, A decently gear veteran would own a very well geared newb. But then again, what is 'decently' geared, and how is good is the newb? These reasons and many others mean this kind of question can never be answered.A few example that skill > gear:My friend jen is now a level 61 warlock. Shes still in a lot of level 37 gear, but I am yet to see a warlock better than herI'm managing to consistanly win every PvP fight i have (including some against red) with a lot of missing spells, and really old gear. My mit is around 18%.I saw my friend Ratfacekilla (amirus/dannnybones) own another brigand in the arena. This brigand was a higher level (this brig had blackjack, my friend didnt) and better geared, and was a dreadnaught.

toenukl

12-02-2007, 01:03 PM

I think EQ2 PvP is a little mixture of both. Against some classes/players I have to really be on my toes, watching health, popping instant heals at the best time, hitting potions, deciding when to use Pumice Stone or to use at all, when to save my big hitters for, when to root and stay away, etc etc.However, when it's someone Fabled vs. Treasured it is VERY hard. A legendary equipped player could beat a fabled equipped player though if they have lots of skill. I think gear should make you a harder target, if not there is no incentive to farm new gear.

ckl

12-02-2007, 04:50 PM

<cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am at a strong disadvantage now, as far as time goes, as I can barely log in a couple of times a week... yet, as a veteran of EQ and plenty other MMORPGs, I think time should be the factor. Skill is for FPSs. RPGs are all about making your char stronger over TIME. </blockquote>I think that's bass ackwards. Ideally, it shouldn't take a year to reach the pinnacle of a game, where gear and level are equal and the fights are decided by skill (or in the imperfect MMO, a combination of skill and class). I read your argument as: "I've got all fabled raid armor and thus should have no trouble beating all the classes that are the scissors to my rock." You say you've played a few MMOs, and if you did you'd know that skill is certainly not under only the purview of FPS games.As for the original post, I quite agree. Time spent should give you a marginal advantage, but certainly not too much of one that it's insurmountable by a more skillful person. </blockquote>No, you are right, it shouldn't take a year to reach the pinnacle of a game. As a matter of fact, the pinnacle of an MMORPG should never be reached... constant, MEANINGFUL character growth is what keeps many of us here...The second part - yes. My argument is exactly that. I should be able to beat down someone with worst gear than I. Sure, gear should not be just a function of time - it should take some brain to get gear in an MMORPG, and that really is where EQ2 - and all the other big MMORPGs out there - fails. But once you have gotten to a higher level and have better gear, you should be able to chew lowbies for breakfast without breaking a sweat. Again, to me that has always been a basic tenant of MMORPGs and I feel EQ2 is already going out of its way to break it, by limiting pvp by level range. I played on EQ pvp on SZ, which was not level limited. I got owned by reds and I owned greys. I loved it. No complains from my side there - nothing more fun than dropping an entire zone worth of lowbies just to see their higher-level friends rush in to kill you. It gave a sense of community. It gave people at level cap a reason to hang out in lowbie areas and "protect" their zones. You talk about skill. If with skill you mean "knowledge of game mechanics, classes, spells, abilities and geography, I agree with you. If with skill you mean hand-eye coordination and quick reaction times, I do not. Those belong to FPSs. But regardless... skill in an MMORPG is also "social skills". Red player griefing you? Get some higher lev friends. Don't have higher level friend? Die. It's perfectly fine with me. To me, it all comes down to character growth. Unless there is a reason to beat content, there is no reason to play. And the main reason (aside a desire to "see more of the game"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> has always been character growth. By asking for a level playing field in pvp, you are asking them to trivialize character growth. You mention "a marginal advantage". Heck no... a marginal advantage is not why we play, night after night. I do realize it is a tradeoff, and the tradeoff is the main reason pvp and MMORPGs never sit well, with some people. But if I have to pick, I'd rather have meaningful character growth (hence, some system where time spent is rewarded), rather than a "skill dependent" pvp experience. And in regards to other MMORPGs - I have played, as far as I know, all of the major ones. Some for long and some only occasionally. EQ2, by limiting pvp by level, has gone out of its way to make time spent irrelevant in pvp - heck, someone who has spent more time than you levelling can not even attack you...Now, EQ2 has other problems that confund the issue. In other games, someone who had been online for longer could have probably killed you in a split second, but had no incentive to do so (see, for example, SZ on EQ). But in EQ2, thanks to level locking, twinks have plenty of incentives to keep killing lowbies, over and over and over. Now, that is truly messed up. But making pvp skill-dependent? Please, please, no.</blockquote>Plenty of people played UO despite having 7xGM characters who had accomplished everything in the PVE world. Character growth meant winning guild wars, looting someone else's house, or being the highest PK on the bounty board.Time spent isn't irrelevant in EQ2, either. At any tier your character's potential is measured by how much time you've spent. Since it's such a gear-based system there's a large gap between someone in treasured items and someone in fabled, regardless of level. Sure, there isn't a free for all system but that doesn't prevent you from making a level locked character yourself to fight other level lockers and defend newbies of your alignment (or guild, alliance, whatever, if we're talking a free for all system lacking factions).The reason you play night after night is probably because you're impressed by shiny objects with high stats, so a gear-based raid game is perfect for you. Me? Back in February it took less than a week to make a respectable T2 locked character that could compete, but I had to eventually start upgrading to legendary/fabled items to compete with a few of the other level lockers. I found out early on in my twinking career the difference spending time takes.

Pyra Shineflame

12-02-2007, 05:47 PM

The way I see pvp is a fight between a kung fu master and someone with a gun.The one who has spent time getting "uber" gear (gun toting one), as long as he knows the basic knowledge of how to pull the trigger he has a fair chance of winning.That isn't to say that the kung fuist is screwed. It's possible that he might pull off a victory, but its an uphill battle.Saying that the only way anyone should be able to win is by analysing every angle of everything (because in a game where we mash buttons to pull off stuff its more "knowledge" of limits rather than skill) is not a way of making pvp fun.On the flip side the only way to win is to buy a gun isn't fun either.I think EQ2 has a nice balance of it. As posted it is possible to win with lower quality gear but for someone to think that they should be able to win against anyone of an equal level with crap on just because of "skill" is shooting themselves in the foot. A skilled player would know that they need better mit and resists, etc. In order for those "twinks" to be twinks, someone had to put money into them in the first place.The thrill of pvp is knowing that you can beat someone and someone else can beat you into the ground.Level locking needs to be addressed, of course, but if a newbie gets driven away because they keep dying to someone in *attainable* gear...One has to wonder if they were cut out for pvp in the first place.

Dreamo

12-02-2007, 07:45 PM

The gear and the time spent in the game will always matter. Assume you changed it and the game becomes completely skill based (so it becomes a lot like a one shooter game). Then people won't be bound to their characters. Your avatar won't matter at all. What will matter is your skill. Such game will become boring real fast. And there is not much to lose after all since everything you accumulated in the game doesn't really make your character stronger. And this is not what developers want. They want you to keep playing the game.

Kust

12-03-2007, 03:32 AM

<cite></cite>I appreciate all the responses, and I am a little surprised by them as well.I guess the main thing that I find surprising is that for most players, the main attraction to the game is getting better equipment (someone mentioned shiny items) To me, that is the most boring part of the game, and the real fun lies in the real competition between players. What I meant by skill in the OP is hard to define, but I will try to clarify. Imagine a DPS class going against a healer class. As the fight begins, the DPS class spams all their abilities, and the healer, who is quickly dropped to orange health, quickly spams all their heals. As the fight continues, the DPS continues to utilizes their abilities as they become available, but the healer, now has the advantage of surviving that first burst and can stay ahead of the damage easily. The DPS, seeing that the healer has them beat if the fight continues this way decides to stop using their abilities and relies on auto-attack to drop health more slowly. The Healer will notice this and likely not think to heal until in yellow or orange again. The DPS's continues to auto-attack until the healer's health is high yellow, then the DPS spams all their abilities again, which have been given a chance to cool-down. Now, the healer, who is already in yellow, has been caught off guard and the combination of all the DPS's abilities has managed to kill the healer.This is a quick, crude example of the kind of skill that I am referring to in the OP. The DPS in this example, has adapted to a situation and devised a strategy to overcome what would otherwise be a losing fight. This kind of fight, where strategy, and thought are involved are a lot more enjoyable to me than a fight where gear is the sole deciding factor, but I guess i am in the minority.It seems self-evident that this kind of competition would be more fun; acquiring gear and developing my character is not something I enjoy, it is a means to an end, and the end is competative PvP. I suppose if there was an MMOFPS with a world as impressive as Norrath I would probably play that instead, but as it stands, the mindless chaos of FPS holds little appeal to me. But, don't underestimate the longevity of a game like EQ2 that relied more on skill than character development, PvP alone would keep people coming back again and again - playing against other live opponents always does that.I will leave on a question, do you players really enjoy grinding through quest after quest, and camping rare after rare in order to get your powerful equipment, or, like I said, is it just a means to an end?

Kust

12-03-2007, 03:58 AM

<cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The second part - yes. My argument is exactly that. I should be able to beat down someone with worst gear than I. (...) once you have gotten to a higher level and have better gear, you should be able to chew lowbies for breakfast without breaking a sweat.</blockquote>This is the type of play that I truly don't understand. I am moderately geared myself, and I can tell when I am beating somebody simply because they have worse gear than I do, and it is not fun. For me, I get about as much enjoyment out of that as I might by going to my local elementary school's gym class and tearing the kids apart in dodge ball.The real excitement lies in those rare, even battles that you either win or lose in by a shred of health.

ckl

12-03-2007, 12:55 PM

<cite>Kust wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems self-evident that this kind of competition would be more fun; acquiring gear and developing my character is not something I enjoy, it is a means to an end, and the end is competative PvP. I suppose if there was an MMOFPS with a world as impressive as Norrath I would probably play that instead, but as it stands, the mindless chaos of FPS holds little appeal to me. But, don't underestimate the longevity of a game like EQ2 that relied more on skill than character development, PvP alone would keep people coming back again and again - playing against other live opponents always does that.I will leave on a question, do you players really enjoy grinding through quest after quest, and camping rare after rare in order to get your powerful equipment, or, like I said, is it just a means to an end?</blockquote>I'm on the same page with you completely. Simply a means to an end; the end just comes quicker in the lower tiers.You might look into Tabula Rasa, which is sort of a MMOFPS. Third person shooter, actually. It's like Starship Troopers online. You aim at everything yourself and fire manually, but there's still somewhat of a dice-roll system. Shooting someone in the head or chest helps, but won't instantly kill them like in Counter-Strike, for instance.Only problem with that game was the only PVP system in place right now is a guild wars system. No open PVP at all, and if a guild is losing pretty badly in a guild war, its leader can declare peace and stop it.As far as the bolded area, UO is a prime example. Its PVP system from back in late 1998, early 1999 is still emulated to this day on a number of player-run shards. The "In Por Ylem" server a few years ago had a steady number of 1000+ players at prime time, and "UO:Hybrid" maintains those numbers today. Not bad for a 10-year old game with isometric graphics and very little character development once you hit grandmaster in your seven skills.

ckl

12-03-2007, 12:56 PM

Derrickr

12-03-2007, 01:27 PM

I think in order to have a good PvP system you need an equal balance between skill and gear. Unfortunately, I feel that EQ2 leans too far toward the gear side. If it didn't, people wouldn't spend ridiculous amounts on low-level gear just to be competitive.I may be in the minority but I feel a relatively new person with any kind of MMO experience will beat a vet if they have considerably better gear than them.

12-05-2007, 01:43 AM

<cite>Kust wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The second part - yes. My argument is exactly that. I should be able to beat down someone with worst gear than I. (...) once you have gotten to a higher level and have better gear, you should be able to chew lowbies for breakfast without breaking a sweat.</blockquote>This is the type of play that I truly don't understand. I am moderately geared myself, and I can tell when I am beating somebody simply because they have worse gear than I do, and it is not fun. For me, I get about as much enjoyment out of that as I might by going to my local elementary school's gym class and tearing the kids apart in dodge ball.The real excitement lies in those rare, even battles that you either win or lose in by a shred of health.</blockquote>I just don't play MMORPGs for the competition. I play them for the immersion, the roleplay, the community. For me, the group of greys organzing to kill the all-powerful red con wizard is part of the MMORPG setting. I see your point - don't get me wrong. But I still believe there is a tradeoff - balanced pvp versus character growth. and Character growth is why I play MMORPGs.Someone above asked if I like harvesting, questing, grinding mobs. Yes, yes, yes. When I feel like pvp'ing I play CoD4. By the way, I thought planetside was a cool idea... to bad the execution was craptastic.

Eluzay

12-05-2007, 11:27 AM

in eq2 gear>skillnot to say skill isnt important but with good enough gear you can trump someone else's skill.

Grimfort

12-05-2007, 12:13 PM

<cite>Kust wrote:</cite><blockquote>Imagine a DPS class going against a healer class. As the fight begins, the DPS class spams all their abilities, and the healer, who is quickly dropped to orange health, quickly spams all their heals. As the fight continues, the DPS continues to utilizes their abilities as they become available, but the healer, now has the advantage of surviving that first burst and can stay ahead of the damage easily. The DPS, seeing that the healer has them beat if the fight continues this way decides to stop using their abilities and relies on auto-attack to drop health more slowly. The Healer will notice this and likely not think to heal until in yellow or orange again. The DPS's continues to auto-attack until the healer's health is high yellow, then the DPS spams all their abilities again, which have been given a chance to cool-down. Now, the healer, who is already in yellow, has been caught off guard and the combination of all the DPS's abilities has managed to kill the healer.</blockquote>I understand what you mean by skill or items, and your example is actually really good. The funny thing is, you have picked the only two classes this idea of "skill" can be used. In about a year and half of playing a tank, I have had this similar battle less times than I can count on one hand. It has always been vs a class that can heal itself. It does not work any other way.PVP battles in EQ2 are too quick. Vs a scount or a mage, it can be over in seconds. You dont have time to use skill. Sure you can pop a de-stifle potion etc, but once your out of that first 10 seconds of shielding, its game over. tank-vs-tank can last a longer time, but the outcome is often not on skill, rather who can soak up the dmg (better gear) or who can self heal (leech or paladin heal for example, both spells) the best. Mage-vs-dps, whoever can do the most dmg (see manashield!) wins. etc etc etc. The occasional group vs group fight takes skill, where both sides are balanced. However, this is more based on class type then skill and items both 2nd on par. For example, my group (6) of lvl 70-74 ish, took on a group and half (8-9) of 76-80s (as well as another 80 scount) and beat them. We had 3 wardens, a fury, an SK and brigand and just outhealed them, with 3.5 healers available, they could just heal each other while the rest beat down on the enemy. Sure we had to use a bit of tactics, but nothing above general targetting knowlege. Raid fights are more interesting as your likely enought to have some of everything, but thats balanced war (not always!!). Then skill comes in, but I hardly see any pvp in raid groups.

deepruntramp

12-05-2007, 05:33 PM

I recently read an <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-player-issues/15860-class-balance-pvp-eq2-vs-daoc-vs-wow.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">interesting post</a> (NOTE: mature language warning) on this same subject on EQ2Flames' new PV P forum. I believe it was comparing EQ2 to DAOC and WoW, arguably the two most "successful" applications of PvP in the genre. It didn't specifically discuss Vets v Newbs, or the process of vetting in each of the games, but it discussed some of the fundamental design choices behind the games that affected this discussion. A worthy read, even if the author slips into suggesting some drastic, potentially foolhardy "fixes" to EQ2 PvP at the end.

ckl

12-05-2007, 05:56 PM

<cite>deepruntramp wrote:</cite><blockquote>I recently read an <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-player-issues/15860-class-balance-pvp-eq2-vs-daoc-vs-wow.html" target="_blank">interesting post</a> (NOTE: mature language warning) on this same subject on EQ2Flames' new PV P forum. I believe it was comparing EQ2 to DAOC and WoW, arguably the two most "successful" applications of PvP in the genre. It didn't specifically discuss Vets v Newbs, or the process of vetting in each of the games, but it discussed some of the fundamental design choices behind the games that affected this discussion. A worthy read, even if the author slips into suggesting some drastic, potentially foolhardy "fixes" to EQ2 PvP at the end. </blockquote>I should have expected more than confusing PvP with RvR from someone who doesn't know when to use the word 'whom', rather than 'that.' Ah, such is life.

Scatimus

12-05-2007, 06:53 PM

time should absolutely play a part in pvp. why would they make it so everyone was equal all of the time. the game would get very boring. skill should and does have a lot more to do with it. people spend a lot of time getting their toons geared up, leveled up and spelled up. that may be time you do not have but, why punish those whodo. i play this game an average of 5 hours a night and not much on the weekends. i used to play a lot more. i spend a lot of time leveling my toon, raiding and pounding on rocks to get rares. it is the way the game is intended to be. the more time you spend on the game the better you become, as long as you actually learn the game. if everyone was equal all of the time, the game would fail. if you are a low level...better be prepared to get ganked a lot from twinks. if you are a high level...better be prepared to get ganked by groups.

Kust

12-05-2007, 09:02 PM

<cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I just don't play MMORPGs for the competition. I play them for the immersion, the roleplay, the community.(...) Someone above asked if I like harvesting, questing, grinding mobs. Yes, yes, yes. </blockquote>See? I didn't know that there were people out there that actually enjoyed that; for me that is strictly an ends to a means, but it is interesting to see that for others, it is just as fun.However, I don't think that there is a tradeoff between immersion/roleplaying/community and character development; there would still be powerful players in my scenario, but it would be based more on play-style than gear. Instead of a bunch of players grouping together to kill another player based on his gear, they would be grouping to kill another player who is notoriously skilled.