Did I make a bad choice by making a SK?

[Venger33]

<p>I just hit 60th. I'm hearing from other players that since I made a SK I won't invited to Raids? I have been told that most good guilds have thier tanks and therefore don't need my class? Reason I'm asking is this is my only character. I love my SK but it will suck if I can't find a raid to goto based on my choice of class.</p><p>Ghoulsbane</p>

[sirmorte]

<p>Venger, what you heard is a bunch of BS! I am a SK and have NEVER been denied entry to raids, groups etc. in leu of other fighter classes. The problem that you mentioned does not happen simply because you are a sk.</p><p> Here is the real problem: raids want a variety of players and not just one class. Most large raid guilds usually have more shadow knights than they can handle. It is a very popular class because they are fun to play, are very strong and can solo among the best of the classes. Thus, there is usually an abundance of shadowknights and usually more than can be accomodated on raids. If you don't get into a raid, it won't be because they don't want shadowknights, per se.</p><p>Sirmorte</p><p>Permafrost server</p><p>Housei of Rising Phoenix.</p>

[Oldlore]

Well it's true SKs aren't a popular class for raids, but the same can be said for almost any fighter.  Generally after you have 2-3 fighters, more aren't really necessary or even wanted.  There's a bias towards making warriors MTs and it's hard to overcome.  The real problem has to do with class popularity.  The classes that aren't popular (healers, bards, enchanters) tend to be highly desired at raids since they're usually the classes the raid needs and doesn't have.  Fighters and dps are present in abundance so they're rarely needed.

[hellskitten]

<p>I dont mean this offensive but thats way its going to come out....</p><p>Why do you act surprised upon hearing this at lvl 60? The complaint has been made for so long on these forums (not saying I agree SKs are not good on raids.. just that we not #1 choice usually) that I trully, trully cant understand such a post as this. If youd played a SK since beginning and didnt know what to expect then I could understand a sense of disappointment but thats not the case since it was created after  10/18/2007; which means there is plenty of talk about the "issue" that should of prepared you.</p><p>Now as to your question.... no ya didnt make a mistake <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As far as Im concerned, and many others, SKs are one of the most well rounded class in the game. Unless your in a full time raid guild sometimes it can be hard to get into raids with people you dont know. That is true of alot of classes though.  As has already been said there is an abundunce of fighter types though which makes it a lil harder for us. Also is the misinformation thats taken as gospel among the majority of the player base. Time again and again I see it in chat mentioned that SKs suck blahblahblah, and when you ask why the answers are "my friends said so.." "I read it on the furoms..." ectect. Its not that people know jack about us, they just jumping on a bandwagon. Though Ive only MTed on a couple of raids (by choice.. I dont really like raiding so refuse lot times when asked to,) never on those raids or in ANY group have I had complaints about my ability to do the job.  </p><p>If it takes giving up alot the benifits that come with being a SK just to become the "ideal" tank... no thanks. You can always go back to your zerker if looking to be the so called best tank. Just be prepared once again to feel the same situation since all the raid guilds already have thier MT.</p>

[Dead Knight]

...lol

[Hugsnkissums]

<p>For the most part, what you've heard is true...SKs will not be sought out to join raids. Most guilds will not seek you out because you're an SK. We're one of those classes that needs to prove our worth over and over again before we're even considered for little things with large groups. That's to be expected really since we are such a well rounded class meaning we do a lot of things well, but no where near as good as classes that are highly specialized. Our tanking ability requires some finesse and some groups don't understand that. It's just the nature of being who we are and in fact, if you were to raid chances are you really wouldn't shine to bright there anyway...there's always another class in the raid that can do whatever you are going to do better. That's the curse of being a "jack of all trades" class, so raiding isn't necessarily our strong point.</p><p>We do make a great soloing class. We shine best in small groups when the specialized classes just aren't there. As the group gets larger, we tend to loose some of our luster, but that's just the way it is. This class isn't designed to be the most uber of the uber out there. It's a solo or small group class and a [Removed for Content] good first toon on an account. Raiding isn't impossible, you just have to know the right people or deal with pick up raids (which are usually pretty painful in my experience). </p><p>I don't think you made a mistake being an SK, but you do need to be aware of the classes limitations and the stigma we have to overcome. I love my SK and I don't care how many raids I get passed up for. He's my first toon and I'll always have a place in my account for my SK. </p>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>There's a misconception that warriors (read: guardians) are the best for MT when really, any plate fighter can tank epics and even non plate if the raid party likes a challenge.</p><p>It's not that an SK is a bad class but there is no real need for more than 2 fighters</p><p>and then the stigma to overcome.</p><p>It's very easy though after you've proved your worth.</p>

[Dead Knight]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There's a misconception that warriors (read: guardians) are the best for MT when really, any plate fighter can tank epics and even non plate if the raid party likes a challenge.</p><p>It's not that an SK is a bad class but there is no real need for more than 2 fighters</p><p>and then the stigma to overcome.</p><p>It's very easy though after you've proved your worth.</p></blockquote>It isn't a misconception. Warriors always have been and still are best for the job. The misconception is that Crusaders suck at it, when I can tank every single mob a Warrior can and do it just as well if not better. Look at the Warrior's CA's, buffs, AAs and tools in general then compare them to an SK - you'll see why.

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

YAY, for SoE's .... We only have one real tank mold ... the rest suck. Back on topic. My first toon is a SK, I raid with him where and when I can. Alot of it is "we" have to prove ourselves time and time again. I have outparsed dps classes but tbh when I look back at the raids I have been on, and account my outparsing as those playing the classes as slackers. But be patient and find pick up raids and prove yourself where you can.

[MaCloud1032]

In the right group a SK will regularly out pars many "DPS" classes.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<p>Heh. Wait til Plane of Fear (raid zone) comes in, then crusaders would be best at that and warriors "suck" at that.. They might whine too hard about it cuz they "lose" their edge to crusaders as long as crusaders spec'ed into fear immunity then they are golden heh. </p><p>For raids, warriors do have small edge over crusaders but that "edge" can be nullified easily by the difference in gear, player skill, masters, etc etc. then crusaders can be better than warriors.  For groups and solo, Sk does them very well and it's no reason why groups deny SK unless they already got 1 tank.  Group usually have 1 tank+ 1 or 2 healers then rest is dps or whatever. Everytime I start my group, I never seek out for other tank except brawlers cuz I felt it was better to get another dps than another tank.. I would get another tank if we cannot find last one to fill up the group. I just get them last resort..</p><p>Same for raids, they don't need many tanks at all. They only get certain amount of tanks then stop at that then will deny any more tanks no matter what tank classes even warriors..</p>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the right group a SK will regularly out pars many "DPS" classes.</blockquote>Heh. It is really moot point.  In the right group a SK will regularly out pars many "DPS" classes. However, In the right group a dps class will regularly out pars SK in his/her right group.

[Skywarrior]

<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote>It isn't a misconception. <b>Warriors always have been and still are best for the job</b>. The misconception is that Crusaders suck at it, when I <b>can tank every single mob a Warrior can and do it just as well if not better</b>. Look at the Warrior's CA's, buffs, AAs and tools in general then compare them to an SK - you'll see why. </blockquote>I'm not coming down on either side of this discussion but this quote is self-contradictory.  The bolded parts indicate that Warriors are still the best and yet SK can do just as well or better.  This seems rather at odds.  Which is it?  Really can't be both.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Ghoulsbane@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm hearing from other players that since I made a SK I won't invited to Raids?</p><p>False</p><p>I have been told that most good guilds have thier tanks and therefore don't need my class? </p><p>False. Substitute the last word for Archtype maybe, and even then, chances arise occasionally due to attrition, timing, etc. </p><p>If you enjoy the class, stick with it.</p></blockquote>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>melaine_dvarvensplitter wrote:</cite><blockquote>YAY, for SoE's .... We only have one real tank mold ... the rest suck. Back on topic. My first toon is a SK, I raid with him where and when I can. Alot of it is "we" have to prove ourselves time and time again. I have outparsed dps classes but tbh when I look back at the raids I have been on, and account my outparsing as those playing the classes as slackers. But be patient and find pick up raids and prove yourself where you can. </blockquote>Yep.  And be prepared to be told "no" alot.  The fact of the matter is, Shadowknights (like every other fighter) don't bring much to the table aside from tanking ability and marginal dps.  Given the choice between taking a brigand and an SK, the brigand is going, and the SK is going to have to find something else to do.  Them's the facts.  BTW, Ramone rocks.  One of the few SK's (and I play an SK, so I'm picky about them) that I'll group with on Atelos, my swashy.

[Kaldrin]

I'm probably in the minority here, but raiding isn't my cup of tea and I won't be doing it with any of my characters... uberness be damned.

[daga]

The biggest problem is not that we suck. It is that when people want crusaders its usually a pally because of amends. U do not have to be a good player to play a pally well since a lot of hate comes from another class. Its a class were they dont have to do any sort of work to get control over an encounter. That being said sk can do the same if they work harder and know there class. It comes down to if u know your class u can raid. (and im not busting on paladins cause there are very very good ones out there).

[Dead Knight]

<cite>daga wrote:</cite><blockquote>The biggest problem is not that we suck. It is that when people want crusaders its usually a pally because of amends. U do not have to be a good player to play a pally well since a lot of hate comes from another class. Its a class were they dont have to do any sort of work to get control over an encounter. That being said sk can do the same if they work harder and know there class. It comes down to if u know your class u can raid. (and im not busting on paladins cause there are very very good ones out there). </blockquote>Amends does not make a Pally. Anyone that has been raiding for a while can tell you this. A Pally can amend the best DPS toon in EQ2 and if he sucks it won't help a thing. SK cannot generate as much aggro as a pally at all, Death March is temporary, Amends is not. A Pally has the same taunts, very close DPS and Amends - any SK that comes here and says they can outaggro a Pally of the same skill is full of crap. Either way, it comes down to not sucking. If you don't suck at your class you'll get to raid, if you do the most you'll see is a weekly Labs raid from some family guild.

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>daga wrote:</cite><blockquote>The biggest problem is not that we suck. It is that when people want crusaders its usually a pally because of amends. U do not have to be a good player to play a pally well since a lot of hate comes from another class. Its a class were they dont have to do any sort of work to get control over an encounter. That being said sk can do the same if they work harder and know there class. It comes down to if u know your class u can raid. (and im not busting on paladins cause there are very very good ones out there). </blockquote>Amends does not make a Pally. Anyone that has been raiding for a while can tell you this. A Pally can amend the best DPS toon in EQ2 and if he sucks it won't help a thing. SK cannot generate as much aggro as a pally at all, Death March is temporary, Amends is not. A Pally has the same taunts, very close DPS and Amends - any SK that comes here and says they can outaggro a Pally of the same skill is full of crap. Either way, it comes down to not sucking. If you don't suck at your class you'll get to raid, if you do the most you'll see is a weekly Labs raid from some family guild.</blockquote>Either Amends makes a paladin, or it doesn't.  Make up your mind.  You stated the following in your post: -- Paladins have the same taunts as shadowknights. -- Paladins have dps close to that of shadowknights. -- SK's cannot generate as much agro as paladin.Stop there.If paladins and SK's have the same taunts and dps, yet paladins somehow generate more agro than shadowknights, where then, is the extra agro coming from?  The logical answer is Amends.  One could infer from your very post that without Amends, paladins are no better at holding agro than SK's are.  Therefore, yes, Amends <i>does</i> make a paladin.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

/nod at Uros..

[Dead Knight]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>daga wrote:</cite><blockquote>The biggest problem is not that we suck. It is that when people want crusaders its usually a pally because of amends. U do not have to be a good player to play a pally well since a lot of hate comes from another class. Its a class were they dont have to do any sort of work to get control over an encounter. That being said sk can do the same if they work harder and know there class. It comes down to if u know your class u can raid. (and im not busting on paladins cause there are very very good ones out there). </blockquote>Amends does not make a Pally. Anyone that has been raiding for a while can tell you this. A Pally can amend the best DPS toon in EQ2 and if he sucks it won't help a thing. SK cannot generate as much aggro as a pally at all, Death March is temporary, Amends is not. A Pally has the same taunts, very close DPS and Amends - any SK that comes here and says they can outaggro a Pally of the same skill is full of crap. Either way, it comes down to not sucking. If you don't suck at your class you'll get to raid, if you do the most you'll see is a weekly Labs raid from some family guild.</blockquote>Either Amends makes a paladin, or it doesn't.  Make up your mind.  You stated the following in your post: -- Paladins have the same taunts as shadowknights. -- Paladins have dps close to that of shadowknights. -- SK's cannot generate as much agro as paladin.Stop there.If paladins and SK's have the same taunts and dps, yet paladins somehow generate more agro than shadowknights, where then, is the extra agro coming from?  The logical answer is Amends.  One could infer from your very post that without Amends, paladins are no better at holding agro than SK's are.  Therefore, yes, Amends <i>does</i> make a paladin.</blockquote>What I meant to say was, Paladins are no worse than us without Amends. Take any good Paladin, Madbiker, Virutis, Wozamil and ask them to hold aggro without Amends, I bet they could do it successfully. All I'm saying is that there's more to a Paladin than putting on Amends and going auto attack, anyone can tell you this. And in our jealousy somewhat of Amends, we tend to think Paladins take no skill to play. Every class takes skill to play, and a crap Paladin with M1 Amends would be no better a tank than a Troubadour.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

Go post in paladin forums that you suggested to SOE to remove amend out of paladin for good to equalize paladins to SK.. See how reaction they would.. That 'll be a true SK action creating hatred out of paladins to cause many new fallen paladins. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If their reaction was indifferent then amend doesn't make paladins. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think Amend is a staple spell for paladins to have cuz I kept hearing about it all the time from paladins how great it is..

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>daga wrote:</cite><blockquote>The biggest problem is not that we suck. It is that when people want crusaders its usually a pally because of amends. U do not have to be a good player to play a pally well since a lot of hate comes from another class. Its a class were they dont have to do any sort of work to get control over an encounter. That being said sk can do the same if they work harder and know there class. It comes down to if u know your class u can raid. (and im not busting on paladins cause there are very very good ones out there). </blockquote>Amends does not make a Pally. Anyone that has been raiding for a while can tell you this. A Pally can amend the best DPS toon in EQ2 and if he sucks it won't help a thing. SK cannot generate as much aggro as a pally at all, Death March is temporary, Amends is not. A Pally has the same taunts, very close DPS and Amends - any SK that comes here and says they can outaggro a Pally of the same skill is full of crap. Either way, it comes down to not sucking. If you don't suck at your class you'll get to raid, if you do the most you'll see is a weekly Labs raid from some family guild.</blockquote>Either Amends makes a paladin, or it doesn't.  Make up your mind.  You stated the following in your post: -- Paladins have the same taunts as shadowknights. -- Paladins have dps close to that of shadowknights. -- SK's cannot generate as much agro as paladin.Stop there.If paladins and SK's have the same taunts and dps, yet paladins somehow generate more agro than shadowknights, where then, is the extra agro coming from?  The logical answer is Amends.  One could infer from your very post that without Amends, paladins are no better at holding agro than SK's are.  Therefore, yes, Amends <i>does</i> make a paladin.</blockquote>What I meant to say was, Paladins are no worse than us without Amends. Take any good Paladin, Madbiker, Virutis, Wozamil and ask them to hold aggro without Amends, I bet they could do it successfully. All I'm saying is that there's more to a Paladin than putting on Amends and going auto attack, anyone can tell you this. And in our jealousy somewhat of Amends, we tend to think Paladins take no skill to play. Every class takes skill to play, and a crap Paladin with M1 Amends would be no better a tank than a Troubadour.</blockquote>I may be the only SK out there who isn't jealous of Amends, lol.  I feel that as an SK, I have more tools to take and hold agro than I did as a paladin.  Even if you take away Amends and Death March, I think SK's come out on top, given equal player skill, gear, and spell quality.  My thinking here lies in the fact that as a shadowknight, I don't <i>need</i> to use Death March to hold agro.  It's a situational "Oh crap" tool for me.  Contrast that with paladins however, where you'd be hard pressed to convince me that any paladin can hold agro consistently without Amends.  Outside of their two taunts and shield bash, they don't have any great agro tools.  Unless you count the horrid Sigil of Heroism.  So in my view (having played Uros as a pally to 69) yes, Amends does make paladin as a class.Here's the thing though:  Having to rely on Amends isn't a bad thing.  The Amends line is a tool in the paladin's toolbox, just like Death March, Feign Death, Nefarious Caress, and the like are tools in the shadowknight's toolbox.  To <i>not</i> make use of any of the tools given us would be silly.

[Masoma]

Ghoulsbane,What you have heard about SK's not being invited to raids is basically correct.  Our casual/raid guild discourages Beserker, Paladin, and SK's from even applying to our guild since there are no raid slots available and they would have to hang around until one opened up.  We use no Paladin or beserker at all at the moment.  Two guardians and an SK handle the tank "need" most of the time and the SK is almost always in DPS mode in a mage group.  We are however constantly inviting some other classes to raid with us, notably healers and illusionist/coercers.  Raids have become very dps centric and the SK sadly presents with nothing that makes them ESSENTIAL to the raid so chances of getting a regular raid slot are more dependent on friendships, status, etc than any innnate abilitity or class specific appeal.  (And please ignore the inevitable messages posted that say something like "..if you knew how to play your class you wouldn't need to..)  As tank for a group, well, I am prejudiced but I think the SK is probably the best plate but that's another topic.   lol

[nihilux]

I've seen a lot of threads revolving around this issue. I never have a problem getting a raid invite & I am usually one of three Sk's in the raid party. It's really a guild thing if you ask me. Meaning> What guild your in, what type of raid style does your guild do, And most of all up... What <b><i>"Uptight"</i></b> idiots who will attempt to shut you down in a pickup raid with that natural selection attitude that gets taken a little to far.Common people. SK's are not useless in raids & it's not that frackin hard to partake in raiding because you were interested in the SK profession.

[nihilux]

Ohh. & no, you didn't make a bad choice.