Questions on Scourge

[Psych]

Alright I was just killed by a gray-con opponent even though all my spells are adept3 and all my gear was moderate...mok rent quest rewards. I am playing a coercer level 26. Let me describe what happend.I am standing infront of 2 grays. 1 uses "Scourge". I die.Ok, there was like 1 or 2 other spells involved but the scourge alone put me in red. The rest was all of 2 seconds before I was face down. I know I'm a cloth wearing finger waggler and as such should not be resistant to heavy damage but honestly....1 spell from a gray con putting me in red?I have about 1300 health on this coercer and so after seeing the damage this spell did I decided to scroll through my combat text and see exactly what was done. Thats where I found its name...Scourge.First scourge hit me for 246+320+320Second for 246+246+246+246Third for 320+246So...I had heard it dispells your buffs and its damage is based off them...the third I had cancelled some of my buffs. The first 2 I had not. But lets see fully buffed it nailed me for 886 the first time and 984 the second. I'm not on at the moment but I'll come back later and post my mitigations.Still even with poor mit vs whatever type of damage that spell uses should a gray opponent be able to nearly 1 shot me? I just dont see how that makes sense. Also I have heard some say the recast timer on the spell is 90 seconds. This seems ridiculously strong. Is all this that I've listed correct and what are the techniques suggested to use against this spell?

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<cite>Psych wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright I was just killed by a gray-con opponent even though all my spells are adept3 and all my gear was moderate...mok rent quest rewards. I am playing a coercer level 26. Let me describe what happend.I am standing infront of 2 grays. 1 uses "Scourge". I die.Ok, there was like 1 or 2 other spells involved but the scourge alone put me in red. The rest was all of 2 seconds before I was face down. I know I'm a cloth wearing finger waggler and as such should not be resistant to heavy damage but honestly....1 spell from a gray con putting me in red?I have about 1300 health on this coercer and so after seeing the damage this spell did I decided to scroll through my combat text and see exactly what was done. Thats where I found its name...Scourge.First scourge hit me for 246+320+320Second for 246+246+246+246Third for 320+246So...I had heard it dispells your buffs and its damage is based off them...the third I had cancelled some of my buffs. The first 2 I had not. But lets see fully buffed it nailed me for 886 the first time and 984 the second. I'm not on at the moment but I'll come back later and post my mitigations.Still even with poor mit vs whatever type of damage that spell uses should a gray opponent be able to nearly 1 shot me? I just dont see how that makes sense. Also I have heard some say the recast timer on the spell is 90 seconds. This seems ridiculously strong. Is all this that I've listed correct and what are the techniques suggested to use against this spell?</blockquote>It will get nerfed.  It is currently waaaaaaaaaaay overpowered.Its just a matter of when and how much shamans will cry when it does.

[Elephanton]

<p>WhaaaaaaaaaYes, let's nerf already least played classes, shamans...</p><p>How about you L2P dood</p><p>You know how much damage would scourge inflict if you strip all your buffs before fight?I tell you, <span style="font-size: medium;"><b>ZERO</b></span>.</p><p>You know that shamans has smallest DPS in PVP? So nothing prevents you from just stripping your buffs and walking away from them staying on OOC regen, trust me they will not be able to overcome it.</p><p>But no, you don't want that... you don't want to walk away - you want to kill every single class in the game even if you don't know how to play against that class.</p><p>So you come here and scream like OMG shamens pwn me sorc!!! OMG scourge kills me because I dunno how to remove my own buffs be4 fighting overpowered top-tier DPS shamens!!! OMG it even removes my IWIN button (manashield), which btw is not overpowered at all!!! Call SOE whaaaambulance and nerf scourge or I quit tomorrow kk thx bye.</p><p>You guys want to nerf everything that prevents you from being able to kill ALL other classes.This is so stupid.</p>

[Oneira]

Some observations on Scourge from one who uses it:Scourge is devastating against mages for the most part.  Against rogues and predators, i.e. 50% of the toons on a pvp server its effect is minimal.  Why this is exactly I don't know.  I suspect it is because there are some mage buffs that are cast at a lower level, whereas rogues and predators do not have many buffs that count as "beneficial effects"  at all.  Stances evidently are not considered beneficial effects.   Neither are things like de-targeting buffs.Scourge is completely useless in PvE.  It is a PvP skill, period.As a t3 mage, you are seeing Scourge at it's most powerful.  in T2 and T3, Scourge is deadly.   As levels increase, the effectiveness of Scourge decreases.There are ways to lessen the effect of Scourge.  They do exist in the game.  I'm not going to tell you what they are, but they do exist.  If you think about how the ability works and think on it a bit, you may realize what they are.One obvious hint is this:  Scourge dispells X levels of beneficial effects.  The higher level your buffs are, the less of them will be dispelled.One last thing:  You may think that scourge is way overpowered because if what you see in t2 and t3, but as I just explained, there are more than a few circumstances where scourge is not that effective.  Plus, scourge is the one ability that shamans get that makes them actually dangerous in pvp.  That's it.   Although the OP is a coercer, I can tell you this: scourge is our ONLY chance to beat sorcerors, period.  Before I respecc'ed my mystic to the full INT line, I fought warlock after warlock, wizard after wizard and lost pretty much every single time because I could never break through their 10-point magi shielding and/or manashield.To call scourge massively overpowered and forget manashield is absurd, not to mention the M2 thunderstrike that every Fury gets in t3, not to mention several other devastating pvp abilities some other classes get.  I just recently fought a sorc, hit him with a scourge that put him down into the red right away.  He literally had 5% of his hits left after soaking up 3 crits.  He then popped his manashield and by god, he nearly won that fight.  I was in the orange before I finally broke through.So  think a bit before you start calling for nerfs.

[Elephanton]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>One obvious hint is this:  Scourge dispells X levels of beneficial effects.  The higher level your buffs are, the less of them will be dispelled.</blockquote>Personally I don't think buff levels matter much because I've seen Scourge taking 5 buffs from like +12 wizzy.

[Oneira]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>One obvious hint is this:  Scourge dispells X levels of beneficial effects.  The higher level your buffs are, the less of them will be dispelled.</blockquote>Personally I don't think buff levels matter much because I've seen Scourge taking 5 buffs from like +12 wizzy.</blockquote>That depends on the level of the shaman casting it.  That will determine how many levels can be dispelled.

[Elephanton]

That was defiler 22 on wizzy 32-34.

[Wiggl]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>WhaaaaaaaaaYes, let's nerf already least played classes, shamans...</p><p>How about you L2P dood</p><p>You know how much damage would scourge inflict if you strip all your buffs before fight?I tell you, <span style="font-size: medium;"><b>ZERO</b></span>.</p><p>You know that shamans has smallest DPS in PVP? So nothing prevents you from just stripping your buffs and walking away from them staying on OOC regen, trust me they will not be able to overcome it.</p><p>But no, you don't want that... you don't want to walk away - you want to kill every single class in the game even if you don't know how to play against that class.</p><p>So you come here and scream like OMG shamens pwn me sorc!!! OMG scourge kills me because I dunno how to remove my own buffs be4 fighting overpowered top-tier DPS shamens!!! OMG it even removes my IWIN button (manashield), which btw is not overpowered at all!!! Call SOE whaaaambulance and nerf scourge or I quit tomorrow kk thx bye.</p><p>You guys want to nerf everything that prevents you from being able to kill ALL other classes.This is so stupid.</p></blockquote><p><b><i>lol, from now on when you see a shaman you should take all your buffs off?!</i></b></p><p><b><i>they should reduce the damage for pvp, thats all.</i></b></p>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>One obvious hint is this:  Scourge dispells X levels of beneficial effects.  The higher level your buffs are, the less of them will be dispelled.</blockquote>Personally I don't think buff levels matter much because I've seen Scourge taking 5 buffs from like +12 wizzy.</blockquote>What was I thinking?  That sounds like its working perfectly as intended.  A Shaman nearly (or really) one shotting a red.Good thing its on a long recast.  Oh wait...

[Jeridor]

<p>It's really sort of funny. I play a Mystic on a non-PvP server, and I can say two things:</p><p>- Scourge is virtually worthless in PvE in most cases. NPC's just don't tend to have any or many beneficial spell effects on them to scourge. I've found a lot of the stuff in Kunark (rage, etc.) that's on mobs doesn't count as a beneficial spell effect, either.</p><p>- Scourge is way too powerful in PvP because we all generally have TONS of beneficial spell effects on us.</p><p>Although, I'm a little surprised they got lucky enough to not get resisted on casting it on you, since they were grey. Maybe it has a low resist mod, I've never looked.</p>

[Jeridor]

<cite>Harvest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>One obvious hint is this:  Scourge dispells X levels of beneficial effects.  The higher level your buffs are, the less of them will be dispelled.</blockquote>Personally I don't think buff levels matter much because I've seen Scourge taking 5 buffs from like +12 wizzy.</blockquote>What was I thinking?  That sounds like its working perfectly as intended.  A Shaman nearly (or really) one shotting a red.Good thing its on a long recast.  Oh wait...</blockquote><p>The way scourge works, it does a fixed amount of damage per beneficial spell effect dispelled on you. At level 74 Mystic, I can dispell up to a level 102 effect for 901 disease damage per effect dispelled. It dispelles "beneficial effects". This ability is from an AA and scales to level, so it's hard to say what the grey con newb's damage was. Either way, most players have a lot of effects on them, and it's easy to assume that even if it's 200 for a lowbie per effect, getting 1000+ total out of the spell casting is entirely possible. Here's [Removed for Content] of my ability at level 74:</p><p><img src="http://www.rmondy.com/scourge.gif" border="0" alt="" width="310" height="345" /></p><p>I don't have a Mystic on PvP, so someone on a PvP server will have to post the PvP-modified stats, if they're willing.</p>

[Kinox]

If melee mystics weren't so OP i'd say leave scourge alone, but well...They are.On the flip side though, defilers arekinda [Removed for Content] from what i hear so my solution is, let only defilers have it.You say thats not fair?  Well grey's oneshotting reds of ANY class is unfair IMO.  In any zone that is pre-KOS, thers a lvl range which means you have to wait for a grey to attack you, so if a grey shaman can just run up to you and wait till you're engaged with a mob and then oneshot you, i think thats a bit exploitive.What upsets me is that healer classes always complain about their own dps being crappy when the whole concept of a healer is that they HEAL, not dps.  If you want to be a better pvp'er, i suggest you make yourself a better healer because thats the way your class was meant to be played.Now i dont know if thats possible for shamen in this game because i dont play one, so feel free to tell me if my analysis is flawed, but what i DO know is that the healer classes i HAVE played in pvp did very well when i spec'd for uber heals.  Those classes being both druids and a templar, though i'd like to include paladin as well because even at a low lvl they have like 4 different heals. 

[Jeridor]

<p>There's some problems with that solution:</p><p>- The ability is AA-based. You'd have to restructure the AA tree, give a new ability for Shamans and a new ability to Mystics on their Mystic tab too, perhaps.</p><p>- Defilers will eventually get some love if they are indeed underpowered, and the result will be overpowered scourge.</p><p>No, the solution is to fix or replace the ability. Right now, the ability is nigh-worthless on PvE combat. The whole ability needs rethinking, mobs need updates to make more of their buffs appear as beneficial effects, etc. If the way buffing works on mobs matched how buffing works on players, this would be a moot issue as they'd have already nerfed it to avoid shamans doing mass damage every minute to basically any mob.</p><p>BTW, melee mystics don't seem overpowered to me. With an immensely slow 2 handed weapon, I still only do ~500 points of damage with a 101% critical hit rate. It might be that that is more than it seems like, but that weapon is slow and I can't swing it while casting and I cast a lot.</p>

[Kinox]

Well, most people who do a melee spec tend to choose gear that gives melee bonuses as well such as STRand crush/pierce/slash points.  As to you constantly casting, makes no difference, you auto attack will land in the .5 second recovery phase that comes after almost every spell/ca/ability in this game.  I know wardens can change their spells into CA's using their AA tree that gives the 75% melee crit, so would i be wrong to assume that mystics can do the same as well?  Which would mean that if you have 100% melee crit, your abilities as well as your auto attack will always crit.

[Jeridor]

<p>I could be mistaken, but I've never seen anything that leads me to believe that my spells can or will ever count as CA's or benefit from my melee crit rate.  Thanks for the info about the swinging between spells thing (tho I'm still missing out on some attacks, some of the mystic's spells are notoriously slow to cast.)</p><p>Still, I can definitely say Mystics aren't overpowered in PvE. I've made my Mystic a pure outright DPS build, and can do a lot of damage for a healer class, but still, I'm definitely not any better off than any other decently-competitive class. My normal PvE soloing routine works like this: </p><p>1. Pull one mob and one only, warding before hand.</p><p>2. Toss on major DoT's first, use HO's.</p><p>3. Ward again halfway through the fight.</p><p>4. Wrap it up.</p><p>If I accidentally pull two mobs, sometimes I can take them, sometimes I can't. I have to do a lot of spam healing and warding between DoT's. Without my melee attack power and my DoT's, I'd be dead in the water, as most of my time vs. 2 mobs is spent staying alive. BTW, about strength... Mystics get a major, major strength boost from their buffs, well in excess of what they'd get from gear unless they ignored everything else. I try to boost my WIS and INT on gear, as STR and STA are freely flowing for a Mystic. I've been lugging around 6 strong boxes for inventory purposes since I was a lowbie, and currently do so with over 1,000 encumbrance to spare.</p><p>I know they are different beasts, but based on my PvE experience, I highly doubt Mystics are overpowered in PvP. The fact it seemed to make no one's "top 5" list in recent threads and made several people's "low 5" list seems to affirm that (though I'd perhaps disagree they are low-5 worthy.)</p>

[Psych]

Manashield is very strong. The coercer class is an enchanter and we do not get Manashield. That ability is 1 of wizards and warlocks.I stated that I did remove several buffs between more than 1 of the scourge attacks. Apparently my Breeze line isnt considered a buff by scourge...it looks like it has a weird way of picking what is a buff and what isnt. I see the gray guy every day pretty much but he mostly only scourges while I am trying to raise my piercing on green cons and he thinks I'm not paying attention.I understand it does zero damage with my buffs down but by then its too late. See, scourge takes 2 seconds to cast. To right click and cancel several buffs takes much longer, especially since I am lucky to know the class of the character attacking me without having checked through their buffs for a moment. Basically, unless I see them coming from a mile away they will get scourge through before I can cancel my buffs and I will die. Yes, after I revive I can can just not recast them but I was already /freetoken for him so why would he stick around?I dont know exactly what abilities the mystic gets other than scourge but I know that its very difficult to strip all your buffs before an enemy can get within 25 metres for 2 seconds. I think you should get fairly powerful abilities just like everyone else, strong and unique even but I dont think a 1 shot capable skill should be in the game on any character at all as it simply ruins pvp.I am not saying remove scourge. Just saying a gray guy dealt 80% of my bar multiple times with a spell that has a 1 minute refresh and 2 second cast time.

[Oneira]

<cite>Kinox@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If melee mystics weren't so OP i'd say leave scourge alone, but well...They are.<span style="color: #ff3300;">Let me get this straight, you are calling melee mystics OP in pvp?  I guess that means that melee wardens and melee inquisitors are gods then, because in addition to their melee damage they have either fast heals or heals that can't be interrupted, and they are more power efficient than we are, thank you very much.</span>On the flip side though, defilers arekinda [Removed for Content] from what i hear so my solution is, let only defilers have it.<span style="color: #ff3300;">You obviously have never run into a well-played defiler in pvp.</span>You say thats not fair?  Well grey's oneshotting reds of ANY class is unfair IMO.  In any zone that is pre-KOS, thers a lvl range which means you have to wait for a grey to attack you, so if a grey shaman can just run up to you and wait till you're engaged with a mob and then oneshot you, i think thats a bit exploitive.<span style="color: #ff3300;">Frankly I am sceptical of this claim.  I've had Scourge since about level 20, and I have NEVER been able to one-shot a red-con mage like that, not EVER.  And that means, btw, a mage who would be 5 levels above me in a t2 zone.  </span>What upsets me is that healer classes always complain about their own dps being crappy when the whole concept of a healer is that they HEAL, not dps.  If you want to be a better pvp'er, i suggest you make yourself a better healer because thats the way your class was meant to be played.<span style="color: #ff3300;">I suggest you realize that every class in this game does more than just their 'primary' role.  Take heals and lifetaps away from crusaders then, and take any buffs whatsoever away from rogue classes, and take away their mitigation too, because they're 'scouts' after all and not fighters.</span>Now i dont know if thats possible for shamen in this game because i dont play one, so feel free to tell me if my analysis is flawed, but what i DO know is that the healer classes i HAVE played in pvp did very well when i spec'd for uber heals.  Those classes being both druids and a templar, though i'd like to include paladin as well because even at a low lvl they have like 4 different heals.  <span style="color: #ff3300;">Druids and Templars do well in pvp.  Shamans are a differernt story--wards are great in pvp, they say.  True.  But their casting times and interruptibility are a nightmare for us.  And...our dps sucks unless we, as mystics take a melee spec.  Then it's ok.  And we get no roots and no stuns.</span></blockquote>

[Psych]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>You say thats not fair?  Well grey's oneshotting reds of ANY class is unfair IMO.  In any zone that is pre-KOS, thers a lvl range which means you have to wait for a grey to attack you, so if a grey shaman can just run up to you and wait till you're engaged with a mob and then oneshot you, i think thats a bit exploitive.<span style="color: #ff3300;">Frankly I am sceptical of this claim.  I've had Scourge since about level 20, and I have NEVER been able to one-shot a red-con mage like that, not EVER.  And that means, btw, a mage who would be 5 levels above me in a t2 zone.  </span></blockquote></blockquote>Well, the character that did this to me the name is "Artimiz" they are the race Fae, male, and probably still around level 20 unless they lvl'd up. Shouldnt be too hard for you to find him. If you want a demonstration you can log on the RP-PVP server and send a tell to me, name is Cyfeariul. Add me to your friends and when I see Art in darklight wood by nek exit (where he is always at) I will send you a tell and you can group with me then sit and watch my bar when he nails me. He WILL do it if I act like I dont see him. I'm not a liar, be as skeptical as you like.

[Oneira]

<cite>Psych wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>You say thats not fair?  Well grey's oneshotting reds of ANY class is unfair IMO.  In any zone that is pre-KOS, thers a lvl range which means you have to wait for a grey to attack you, so if a grey shaman can just run up to you and wait till you're engaged with a mob and then oneshot you, i think thats a bit exploitive.<span style="color: #ff3300;">Frankly I am sceptical of this claim.  I've had Scourge since about level 20, and I have NEVER been able to one-shot a red-con mage like that, not EVER.  And that means, btw, a mage who would be 5 levels above me in a t2 zone.  </span></blockquote></blockquote>Well, the character that did this to me the name is "Artimiz" they are the race Fae, male, and probably still around level 20 unless they lvl'd up. Shouldnt be too hard for you to find him. If you want a demonstration you can log on the RP-PVP server and send a tell to me, name is Cyfeariul. Add me to your friends and when I see Art in darklight wood by nek exit (where he is always at) I will send you a tell and you can group with me then sit and watch my bar when he nails me. He WILL do it if I act like I dont see him. I'm not a liar, be as skeptical as you like.</blockquote>That venekor you talking about?  OK i'll see if I can't find this Mystic From Hell and check him out.

[Taharn]

Ok, to the OP, you're level 26. That means that this how you're probably buffed. Magi Shielding, See Invis, Signet of Intuition, Power of Mind, Breeze,  Coerce and the power regen part of Cerebral Lash might have been running. That's 4,9, 7, 12, 17, 18 and 20 levels of spells on you. I dont know how the game calculate clicky buffs, or illusions, things like that or if they can even be stripped, but thats neither here nor there. At level 26 a defiler can scourge 38 levels of spells off you. So that would be 4 effects easily.. A grey con defiler could quite easily strip 3 buffs off you.  If you have poor mit vs disease it's your own fault that it did so much damage, boost your resists.Unfortunately the only solution to it is to LEVEL UP. Once buffs get out of the T2/3 range you'll find it removing a lot less of them.

[Psych]

<cite>Vicante@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, to the OP, you're level 26. That means that this how you're probably buffed. Magi Shielding, See Invis, Signet of Intuition, Power of Mind, Breeze,  Coerce and the power regen part of Cerebral Lash might have been running. That's 4,9, 7, 12, 17, 18 and 20 levels of spells on you. I dont know how the game calculate clicky buffs, or illusions, things like that or if they can even be stripped, but thats neither here nor there. At level 26 a defiler can scourge 38 levels of spells off you. So that would be 4 effects easily.. A grey con defiler could quite easily strip 3 buffs off you.  If you have poor mit vs disease it's your own fault that it did so much damage, boost your resists.Unfortunately the only solution to it is to LEVEL UP. Once buffs get out of the T2/3 range you'll find it removing a lot less of them. </blockquote>I had magi shielding, signet, power of mind, breeze and see invis first time. The second time I dropped see invis...apparently scourge doesnt count it...it seemed to still be on. The scourge also seemed to not count breeze.Its a strange move I'd love to test with thats why I asked about it here. I wanna know exactly which of my buffs it targets because it didnt remove all of them just a select few. I was too dumb to write down which ones because I was too busy recording the damage going "omgwtfh4xor" in authentic newbish. I can probably get hit today. Also, it doesnt target coerce, I am fairly certain as my pet attacked him and coercer didnt break. Its a weird move.Heck, maybe it CAN remove breeze and see invis but chose my other buffs and depleted its level amount on them.As for my mit all my res are between 18 and 41.4 I will check my exact disease mit and get back later.I didnt have any spells like cerebral lash up because I was raising piercing so not trying to get aggro. Just letting my pet tank a green con while I poke it with a 1-3 damage dagger. The first time. The other times I didnt have it up because I had to wait for the gray to make the first move.

[Psych]

I realize this is 2 posts in a row but I did say I'd report back. My disease mit is over 26% depending on what I was wearing it could have been 30%I ran into artimiz again, exactly where I said...nek gate...followed him to commonlands and back into DLW a couple times saying/emote please cast scourge on me I'd like to test something/emote please cast scourge on me.again and againI guess he figured it was a trap because he just ran away and kept zoning until I lost him.I will still try to get his attention when i see him but I've no more quests in DLW so I cant say that will be too soon for sure unless he levels up.

[dellaripa]

Just wait until about level 50.  Coercers can kill us before we even get a scourge off.

[tshook]

<p>Ok now I have heard everything.  First, coercer/illusie who cant beat a healer, second scourge (which resists about 50% of the time) is too powerful.</p><p>Would you like to know what scourge does?  go buy some pumice stones.  There you go.  Every single player has the ability to use scourge (aka pumice stone).  It is the ONLY thing that keeps me from jumping off a cliff (IRL) is my free pumice stone. other than that, the only other use for a defiler is as a very good RAID healer.  </p><p> Now, having said that, I have seen 1 defiler general and I really really would like to know how it is done.  i can only get and keep titles if I have a warlock in my group.  Nice thing about warlocks is both side have em so i doubt many people will cry nerf... but that is a completely different subject.   All healers suffer from the casting interupt, but shammies in particular because it takes us 6 seconds to cast our big one,.... IF AND ONLY IF we dont get interrupted.  6 seconds.  SIX FRIGGEN SECONDS.  in PVP the fight is already over by then.  and then you could simply go BUY yourself a PUMICE STONE, cast it on me (my defiler), and kill the MT in the group (because I have alot of nice health buffs (hence good RAID healer)) and everyone else is quick to follow.</p><p>Now, as for coercers not being able to beat healers?  sheesh.  Have you looked at your spell bar?  The only reason I have been able to beat coercers is because I know what the particular EVIL spell looks like when I am afflicted and cure it TOUTE FRIGGEN SWEET OR I GO BYE BYE.  Coercers are healer killers...  healer assasins,  all healers should fear the wrath of a good coercer.  Most every class should if 1v1.</p><p>Nerf defilers?  sheesh.  try playing one.  You will truly know what the definition of GRIND is.   On a PVP server?  We (everyone who has rolled a defiler) should be playing for free for all the pain we have had to endure.   </p>

[silentpsycho]

<p>I don't get it.  SOE gives my defiler one, just one, ability that doesn't completely suck in PVP and people want to take it away or reduce it's effectiveness.  I give up.</p><p> *edit: and scourge has never one shott'ed anyone in my experience.  It's taken, at most, about 20% of a warden's health once.  Of course, I'm 73 now, so maybe I just missed the boat on being "crazy OP".</p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Fyste@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get it.  SOE gives my defiler one, just one, ability that doesn't completely suck in PVP and people want to take it away or reduce it's effectiveness.  I give up.</p><p> *edit: and scourge has never one shott'ed anyone in my experience.  It's taken, at most, about 20% of a warden's health once.  Of course, I'm 73 now, so maybe I just missed the boat on being "crazy OP".</p></blockquote>Scourge can 1-shot at lower levels--certain classes and in certain situations.  That's what the beef is about.  You are 73.  Scourge won't 1-shot anyone at that level.I play the mystic side of things to your defiler.  We have been pleading for some kind of casting time reduction to our wards and/or uninterruptibility to our spells (you know, like clerics get) forever.Those who are calling for a nerf to scourge outta try playing a shaman sometime and having fun trying to cast a group ward in pvp.  LOL.

[Kinox]

The point of this thread is that this spell does not work as intended at low lvls probably because people weren't intended to have enough aa to get it until late tier3.  The OP is not saying, "OMG, nerf shammies quick before they one-shot us all" hes saying that this spell needs to be rescaled for lower levels so that its not a [Removed for Content] oneshot kill.

[Snowlywhite]

tbh, there are so many things totally off in lower tiers(no clue about end game, didn't get there yet, but I bet that's it's prolly the same situation) it's not even fun... You wonder if they ever played their game, or they just tossed the dmg. reductions in pvp using some random number generator.and yes, scourge is totally off in t2-t4... I remember about 2 month ago when I was ~30(brig here) and together with a 20 somethin' defilier were fightin' a 35 mage in fg(champ., so definitelly he didn't have the crappiest gear around, especially since I know he was mostly solo) and my dood just put the guy on orange with the 1st pop... being again, somewhere ~8 lvls. or so under the guy. Was like... "[Removed for Content], I play the wrong class" till I read about what it does and figured out how much it'd do end game...Yet, I stick to my point that nothin' beats the m2 strike of thunder at 24...:p

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Kinox@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The point of this thread is that this spell does not work as intended at low lvls probably because people weren't intended to have enough aa to get it until late tier3.  The OP is not saying, "OMG, nerf shammies quick before they one-shot us all" hes saying that this spell needs to be rescaled for lower levels so that its not a [Removed for Content] oneshot kill.</blockquote>And if scourge were the worst of them, I'm sure it'd get adjusted.  I expect to see an even greater reduction to HT/Ball of Fire/Strike of Thunder/etc./etc./etc./etc. before anyone thinks of touching Scourge at any level.  Heck, even auto attack damage is more deadly most of the time.  To the OP - relax dude, you don't get to one-shot everyone then /cry when someone does it back to you once.

[sprogn]

<p>A coercer moaning about a shammy.....   L-o-freakin-L...</p><p>Level up to 70, go grab a pet in KJ and you can one shot pretty much any non raid geared tank fighter...</p>

[Murrdawg69]

Yes I can definently vouge that a nerf on SoT and the enc nuke, or something to druids before scourge, I mean hell I don't even have a shaman and I'm sticking up for them.. Sure, I've been near one shotted countless times by it in lower tiers, but I mean its 1 death.. Take it and move on. I also think that SoT is waaay overpowered and has more dps than two HT's in a row.. and the re-cast for it is amazingly short.. hell I believe its less than 6 sec.. With the way the HoT's for druids are atm that keeps them perm in the green for life and pumping out HT's or "Scourge's" minus the debuff every 6 secs or so. And I have a fury and want them toned down, in fact I stopped playing my fury so much cause its too ez mode, ppl who think rangers are easy mode need to roll a fury in t3.. Enough said. If anything the re-cast timer on scourge should be looked at and considered to be not as long as HT but at least not every 30 sec or 1 min i think it is.. Dam and how it works is fine by me, if anything it should incourage new players to level up where scourge and HT looses its affectiveness, and RESISTS are key in pvp... you have low disease resists and ur toast when u meet a sk, warlock or shaman anyway..  Thats my 2 cents worth anywho.

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Murrdawg69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes I can definently vouge that a nerf on SoT and the enc nuke, or something to druids before scourge, I mean hell I don't even have a shaman and I'm sticking up for them.. Sure, I've been near one shotted countless times by it in lower tiers, but I mean its 1 death.. Take it and move on. I also think that SoT is waaay overpowered and has more dps than two HT's in a row.. and the re-cast for it is amazingly short.. hell I believe its less than 6 sec.. With the way the HoT's for druids are atm that keeps them perm in the green for life and pumping out HT's or "Scourge's" minus the debuff every 6 secs or so. And I have a fury and want them toned down, in fact I stopped playing my fury so much cause its too ez mode, ppl who think rangers are easy mode need to roll a fury in t3.. Enough said. If anything the re-cast timer on scourge should be looked at and considered to be not as long as HT but at least not every 30 sec or 1 min i think it is.. Dam and how it works is fine by me, if anything it should incourage new players to level up where scourge and HT looses its affectiveness, and RESISTS are key in pvp... you have low disease resists and ur toast when u meet a sk, warlock or shaman anyway..  Thats my 2 cents worth anywho.</blockquote>Here's the big problem.  History shows SOE has no notion of fixing different tiers of spells.  While Fury's may seem terribly overpowered when your in T3, they are dramatically *under* powered in T2, and again in T6+, esp. compared to Predators and Rogues.  Shamen are just dramatically underpowered T2-T8, unless you really know the class and use every single trick, potion, god power, totem, clicky, and a miracle occurs and you get a ward up despite being chain knockbacked, stunned, stifled, interrupted, and flat out dead.  Honestly, at this point I've played just about every class (except bard) up to T7, and the two that need the most help at the moment are summoners and shamen (on both sides, tho mystics are pretty decent as they sit dps wise).

[Murrdawg69]

How can you honestly sit there and say fury is under powered t2.... [I cannot control my vocabulary] my lvl 14 fury was UNSTOPPABLE even to OP wardens... not to mention when i hit lvl 17-20 and got my new dots i was also unkillable by any Q's even groups I can take up to 3 even cons.... where fury falls off the OP scale isnt until t5+ and ONLY because warden excels them past that point... t2-t4 fury = pwnage of all.. even with SoT removed and the encounter nuke... dots + AA points in dots + 65+ % spell crit makes your dots eat anything.  Ok I agree Shamans need alittle help but they also NEED Scourge looked at... It's to the point now where a 17 mystic (no naming names) can dominate full groups, and even as a red I need to run from him.. it's ridiculous how you can say shamans need help when they are clearly the BEST oneshotter in the game up to t4+ where scourge also looses its effectiveness, im just saying if they are gonna give shamans a HT at least put it on a reasonable timer, cause every 30sec is way too fast.. AND not to mention Defiler has the best DoT's in the game.. I don't see any reasoning shamans need help..

[Oneira]

<cite>Murrdawg69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How can you honestly sit there and say fury is under powered t2.... [I cannot control my vocabulary] my lvl 14 fury was UNSTOPPABLE even to OP wardens... not to mention when i hit lvl 17-20 and got my new dots i was also unkillable by any Q's even groups I can take up to 3 even cons.... where fury falls off the OP scale isnt until t5+ and ONLY because warden excels them past that point... t2-t4 fury = pwnage of all.. even with SoT removed and the encounter nuke... dots + AA points in dots + 65+ % spell crit makes your dots eat anything.  Ok I agree Shamans need alittle help but they also NEED Scourge looked at... It's to the point now where a 17 mystic (no naming names) can dominate full groups, and even as a red I need to run from him.. it's ridiculous how you can say shamans need help when they are clearly the BEST oneshotter in the game up to t4+ where scourge also looses its effectiveness, im just saying if they are gonna give shamans a HT at least put it on a reasonable timer, cause every 30sec is way too fast.. AND not to mention Defiler has the best DoT's in the game.. I don't see any reasoning shamans need help..</blockquote>FYI scourge can do massive damage to certain classes only.  Mages in particular.  Against most scouts, warriors and brawlers, Scourge does very little.And if you don't think shamans need help in pvp than you really need to get a clue.  Quit playing a fury with your fast heals for a while.  Shamans have no casting reductions or skills to prevent interruption on their heals and wards.  It's a nightmare trying to get off a group ward.  Heck, it's a nightmare for me to get off my single target ward when fighting a class that can interrupt.  And at top tiers our wards are going down faster than we can cast them. 

[silentpsycho]

<cite>Murrdawg69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How can you honestly sit there and say fury is under powered t2.... [I cannot control my vocabulary] my lvl 14 fury was UNSTOPPABLE even to OP wardens... not to mention when i hit lvl 17-20 and got my new dots i was also unkillable by any Q's even groups I can take up to 3 even cons.... where fury falls off the OP scale isnt until t5+ and ONLY because warden excels them past that point... t2-t4 fury = pwnage of all.. even with SoT removed and the encounter nuke... dots + AA points in dots + 65+ % spell crit makes your dots eat anything.  Ok I agree Shamans need alittle help but they also NEED Scourge looked at... It's to the point now where a 17 mystic (no naming names) can dominate full groups, and even as a red I need to run from him.. it's ridiculous how you can say shamans need help when they are clearly the BEST oneshotter in the game up to t4+ where scourge also looses its effectiveness, im just saying if they are gonna give shamans a HT at least put it on a reasonable timer, cause every 30sec is way too fast.. AND not to mention Defiler has the best DoT's in the game.. I don't see any reasoning shamans need help..</blockquote><p>Fury dot's < Warden nuke's in T2.  Fury heals << Warden heals in T2.  I play both.  Fury doesn't "pwn face" and become unstoppable until 23-24, with SoT.  Thats when the fun begins.  And, just so you know, it sort of fizzles out at 55-60ish.</p><p>By the way, how do you get 25+ aa's when your 14(ish)?  I've tried everything, I can't do it.</p>

[Murrdawg69]

<cite>Fyste@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Fury dot's < Warden nuke's in T2.  Fury heals << Warden heals in T2.  I play both.  Fury doesn't "pwn face" and become unstoppable until 23-24, with SoT.  Thats when the fun begins.  And, just so you know, it sort of fizzles out at 55-60ish.</p><p>By the way, how do you get 25+ aa's when your 14(ish)?  I've tried everything, I can't do it.</p></blockquote><p>Ok first you obviously have never made a fury then with 5 points into each DoT in the fury tree,  and high spell crit % is very easilly reached by lvl 17 or lower.. my dot one dot as m1 at lvl 17 i do believe is the upgrade.. i was hitting ppl for 60+ each sec on my provoking storm dot.... that dot alone would rip thru anyone who couldnt heal themselves.. And yes wardens outheal fury any tier.. but as a t3 fury before I was getting choose over wardens as the main healer, and i spec'd for solo no heals thru AA... now with recent changes I believe furies can have over 15.k life and power before lvl 20... as a 20 fury 2 months ago I was unstoppable even to red con'd rangers who are supposed to be DPS.. yous ee a target, cast one or two HoT's on you and let loose with your DoT's should kill any class in game period... unless you run into an enchanter who keeps you locked down. thats only problem when fighting as a fury t2.. i could even out dps a warden with my DoT's since their recast for the nuke is a lil longer than the timer on my DoT</p><p>It's all opinion I guess but 5 points in each DoT in the fury tree + 50+ spell crit % and your laughing even without SoT. And the DoT's with 5 points in each hit more faster than if no AA in them... as well as lowered reuse timer</p>