PvP Class Rankings

[Notsovilepriest]

Since every thread anymore says that <Insert Class Here> is in the top tiers of PvP. List ALL the classes from highest to lowest giving a brief description for each. This includes solo and group PvP.

[mtwideen]

Dirge = #1 in raid, group and solo, that is all that matters =P

[Radigazt]

<p>I actually enjoy these threads and have participated in several of them since Nagafen launched.  I don't have the time for a detailed description right now, but to the OP, it would be helpful if you specify exactly what you want, as in what Tier or level.  Are we talking about at level 80?  I'd say that the game is changing and we don't have enough info on it yet to give more than a general ranking at 80, as only a handful of people are there and that's not enough to really test yet.  Did you want level 70, or T3, or T2 ... because I find that every class ranking changes tier by tier.  For instance look at two very similar Druid classes--the Warden and the Fury.  A Warden is dominant in T2, but a Fury is poor.  By T3, the Fury is at least as good as the Warden (at level 23 or higher) because so much of his dps depends upon Strike of Thunder and Energy Vortex, and in T3, he should have both.  But in T6 and T7, the Warden again passes the Fury both in 1v1's and groups.  </p><p>For soloing, the only classes to consider are classes witih Tracking, that means 1 through 6 will be the Scouts in every tier.  In groups there's more room for every class to shine, but if you're asking for a combo of the two, here's some quick thoughts.  It's not a definitive list and definitely debatable, but just off the top of my head:</p><p>T2:1. Warden2. Dirge3. Troubador4. Ranger5. Warlock</p><p>T3:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Fury4. Warden5. Bruiser/Monk</p><p>T4:1. Fury2. Warden3. Inquisitor4. Swashbuckler5. Brigand</p><p>T5:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Coercer5. Illusionist</p><p>T6:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Coercer5. Inquisitor</p><p>T7:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Assassin5. Coercer</p><p>T8: ... we'll see, but here's a preliminary guess1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Warlock5. Coercer</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

Mainly only T7 and T8, Everyone knows druids rule the lower tiers IMO.

[Tae]

I'll have a try at the top 5. 1.<i> Swashbuckler </i>Their stealth attack is a knockback, their AoE is a knockback and they have reach which allows them to use these skills from a long way away. It also allows them to kite, an extremely powerful ability with the way targetting works - often a moving swashbuckler can be impossible to attack because of 'Can't see target' messages. When matched up with stealth and track, it makes the swashbuckler the most powerful of the scouts in PvP. 2.<i>Ranger</i> Yes Focused Aim has been nerfed so a Ranger is no longer the machine of death that it once was. They still have good range, good damage, track and stealth. Range is pretty much king of PvP in EQ2 and it still allows them to do a lot of very quick damage to you and hopefully kill you from a decent distance away. It now requires quite a good player to master the Ranger, but once you've got it down it isn't hard racking up kill after kill. 3.<i>Brigand</i> With the expansion, the Brigand has got vast amounts more HP, and a new version of dispatch which coincidentally does as much PvP debuff as the old one did pre nerf. Again having track, evac and stealth means brigands are very difficult opponents to beat due to them always being the ones who pick when and where to fight and doing large amounts of alpha strike damage. They also have stuns, although their PvP duration is extremely low. Their lack of knockbacks and range makes them weaker than the other two classes when it comes to PvP however. 4.<i>Assassin</i> Again having track and evac makes them kings of PvP. However the assassin suffers from having so so many positional and stealth attacks. If their stifle runs out too early or is parried/deflected/blocked, the assassin often has no chance of a victory. They require a lot more skill to play than the other scouts do, therefore their place on the tree is lower. 5.<i>Warlock/Warden</i> Warlocks have focused casting and manashield. Coupled with their new rift and other fancy AoEs a warlock can kill an entire group if they attack at the right time. They dish out huge amounts of damage and importantly can also take large amounts of damage while having their spells be uninterruptable unless you're a knockback king. However having a warlock stumble upon you is often just bad luck and any of the classes above this entry will have no problem only fighting them when the need arises. Wardens are one of the few classes that can heal through the alpha strike damage of a scout. Granted they cannot do that much damage alone, but they can last long enough that it just doesn't matter. Honourable mentions go to Brawlers as well, which are really effective classes due to their large amount of HP and huge damage attacks. Although honestly I could have just said "Scouts".

[Gagla]

<p>I'd agree with the above poster, but the Assassin class should have a star next to it.</p><p>*(Assassins that pull with decap move to #24 on the pvp ladder, bumping Dirge to #23)</p>

[mtwideen]

YA!! dirge bumped to #23!! second last in some situations <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[convict]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll have a try at the top 5. 1.<i> Swashbuckler</i>Their stealth attack is a knockback, their AoE is a knockback and they have reach which allows them to use these skills from a long way away. It also allows them to kite, an extremely powerful ability with the way targetting works - often a moving swashbuckler can be impossible to attack because of 'Can't see target' messages. When matched up with stealth and track, it makes the swashbuckler the most powerful of the scouts in PvP. 2.<i>Ranger</i> Yes Focused Aim has been nerfed so a Ranger is no longer the machine of death that it once was. They still have good range, good damage, track and stealth. Range is pretty much king of PvP in EQ2 and it still allows them to do a lot of very quick damage to you and hopefully kill you from a decent distance away. It now requires quite a good player to master the Ranger, but once you've got it down it isn't hard racking up kill after kill. 3.<i>Brigand</i> With the expansion, the Brigand has got vast amounts more HP, and a new version of dispatch which coincidentally does as much PvP debuff as the old one did pre nerf. Again having track, evac and stealth means brigands are very difficult opponents to beat due to them always being the ones who pick when and where to fight and doing large amounts of alpha strike damage. They also have stuns, although their PvP duration is extremely low. Their lack of knockbacks and range makes them weaker than the other two classes when it comes to PvP however. 4.<i>Assassin</i> Again having track and evac makes them kings of PvP. However the assassin suffers from having so so many positional and stealth attacks. If their stifle runs out too early or is parried/deflected/blocked, the assassin often has no chance of a victory. They require a lot more skill to play than the other scouts do, therefore their place on the tree is lower. 5.<i>Warlock/Warden</i> Warlocks have focused casting and manashield. Coupled with their new rift and other fancy AoEs a warlock can kill an entire group if they attack at the right time. They dish out huge amounts of damage and importantly can also take large amounts of damage while having their spells be uninterruptable unless you're a knockback king. However having a warlock stumble upon you is often just bad luck and any of the classes above this entry will have no problem only fighting them when the need arises. Wardens are one of the few classes that can heal through the alpha strike damage of a scout. Granted they cannot do that much damage alone, but they can last long enough that it just doesn't matter. Honourable mentions go to Brawlers as well, which are really effective classes due to their large amount of HP and huge damage attacks. Although honestly I could have just said "Scouts".</blockquote>This is very well written, and should also say something about the state of eq2 pvp. Not to mention, a Warden has the fastest heals in the game,evac,snare,root,melee spec,best power pool,power buffs,45% run buff,they just need plate armor and tracking.

[Tae]

<cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite>,evac,snare,root,melee spec,best power pool,power buffs,45% run buff,they just need plate armor and tracking.</blockquote>Warden, Wizard and Shadowknight evac is interruptable, which makes it almost useless. If you can't evac when someone is hitting you, why even bother trying to evac? And plate armour really isn't all that great tbh.

[convict]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>,evac,snare,root,melee spec,best power pool,power buffs,45% run buff,they just need plate armor and tracking.</blockquote>Warden, Wizard and Shadowknight evac is interruptable, which makes it almost useless. If you can't evac when someone is hitting you, why even bother trying to evac? <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">And plate armour really isn't all that great tbh.</span></b></blockquote>You're right, scouts chew through plate armor like its cloth anyway, something else soe needs to look at I guess..

[Simera]

T8 Warlocks are pretty nasty..Upheaval, Absolution and Larval Outbreak alone can own a full group in about six seconds. I would put them number one for T8.

[Arcanias]

<cite>Safia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>T8 Warlocks are pretty nasty..Upheaval, Absolution and Larval Outbreak alone can own a full group in about six seconds. I would put them number one for T8.</blockquote>What is "Larval Outbreak" ?

[Simera]

Dunno..but it was four ticks of 1195 a second apart.

[toenukl]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll have a try at the top 5. 1.<i> Swashbuckler </i>Their stealth attack is a knockback, their AoE is a knockback and they have reach which allows them to use these skills from a long way away. It also allows them to kite, an extremely powerful ability with the way targetting works - often a moving swashbuckler can be impossible to attack because of 'Can't see target' messages. When matched up with stealth and track, it makes the swashbuckler the most powerful of the scouts in PvP. 2.<i>Ranger</i> Yes Focused Aim has been nerfed so a Ranger is no longer the machine of death that it once was. They still have good range, good damage, track and stealth. Range is pretty much king of PvP in EQ2 and it still allows them to do a lot of very quick damage to you and hopefully kill you from a decent distance away. It now requires quite a good player to master the Ranger, but once you've got it down it isn't hard racking up kill after kill. 3.<i>Brigand</i> With the expansion, the Brigand has got vast amounts more HP, and a new version of dispatch which coincidentally does as much PvP debuff as the old one did pre nerf. Again having track, evac and stealth means brigands are very difficult opponents to beat due to them always being the ones who pick when and where to fight and doing large amounts of alpha strike damage. They also have stuns, although their PvP duration is extremely low. Their lack of knockbacks and range makes them weaker than the other two classes when it comes to PvP however. 4.<i>Assassin</i> Again having track and evac makes them kings of PvP. However the assassin suffers from having so so many positional and stealth attacks. If their stifle runs out too early or is parried/deflected/blocked, the assassin often has no chance of a victory. They require a lot more skill to play than the other scouts do, therefore their place on the tree is lower. 5.<i>Warlock/Warden</i> Warlocks have focused casting and manashield. Coupled with their new rift and other fancy AoEs a warlock can kill an entire group if they attack at the right time. They dish out huge amounts of damage and importantly can also take large amounts of damage while having their spells be uninterruptable unless you're a knockback king. However having a warlock stumble upon you is often just bad luck and any of the classes above this entry will have no problem only fighting them when the need arises. Wardens are one of the few classes that can heal through the alpha strike damage of a scout. Granted they cannot do that much damage alone, but they can last long enough that it just doesn't matter. Honourable mentions go to Brawlers as well, which are really effective classes due to their large amount of HP and huge damage attacks. Although honestly I could have just said "Scouts". </blockquote>Pretty much sums up what I was gonna put. Well written Taear.

[Heleptra]

I hafto change the T6 Tree im srry.<span class="postbody">T6:1. Wizard3.Swashbuckler3. Brigand4.Fury5. Ranger6. Coercer7. Inquisitor And i putted wizard 1. because i have beaten any class on t6 pretty easy. only classes that was hard is coercer,illunist. because stops me from casting. And a well played meele Mystic is wery good. But of course peeps can always roll a swash,or brig and kill people with no skills. there no problem. but when it comes down to knowing your class 100% the fights turns opposite.Thanks. I wield a staff of fire I ride a horse of air I fear no water.Hartsia The Exiled.PVP-deaths:1200 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />PVP-Kills:5940</span>

[Tae]

<cite>Safia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>T8 Warlocks are pretty nasty..Upheaval, Absolution and Larval Outbreak alone can own a full group in about six seconds. I would put them number one for T8.</blockquote>They haven't got track, they haven't got evac. It doesn't matter how strong they are if you can choose when you attack them. And in group versus group they're always the first one locked down. And Larval Outbreak is a proc from a ring that drops in a certain level 80 instance, just fyi.

[Vampirian2000]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll have a try at the top 5.1.<i> Swashbuckler</i>Their stealth attack is a knockback, their AoE is a knockback and they have reach which allows them to use these skills from a long way away. It also allows them to kite, an extremely powerful ability with the way targetting works - often a moving swashbuckler can be impossible to attack because of 'Can't see target' messages. When matched up with stealth and track, it makes the swashbuckler the most powerful of the scouts in PvP.2.<i>Ranger</i>Yes Focused Aim has been nerfed so a Ranger is no longer the machine of death that it once was. They still have good range, good damage, track and stealth. Range is pretty much king of PvP in EQ2 and it still allows them to do a lot of very quick damage to you and hopefully kill you from a decent distance away.It now requires quite a good player to master the Ranger, but once you've got it down it isn't hard racking up kill after kill.3.<i>Brigand</i>With the expansion, the Brigand has got vast amounts more HP, and a new version of dispatch which coincidentally does as much PvP debuff as the old one did pre nerf. Again having track, evac and stealth means brigands are very difficult opponents to beat due to them always being the ones who pick when and where to fight and doing large amounts of alpha strike damage. They also have stuns, although their PvP duration is extremely low.Their lack of knockbacks and range makes them weaker than the other two classes when it comes to PvP however.4.<i>Assassin</i>Again having track and evac makes them kings of PvP. However the assassin suffers from having so so many positional and stealth attacks. If their stifle runs out too early or is parried/deflected/blocked, the assassin often has no chance of a victory. They require a lot more skill to play than the other scouts do, therefore their place on the tree is lower.5.<i>Warlock/Warden</i>Warlocks have focused casting and manashield. Coupled with their new rift and other fancy AoEs a warlock can kill an entire group if they attack at the right time. They dish out huge amounts of damage and importantly can also take large amounts of damage while having their spells be uninterruptable unless you're a knockback king. However having a warlock stumble upon you is often just bad luck and any of the classes above this entry will have no problem only fighting them when the need arises.Wardens are one of the few classes that can heal through the alpha strike damage of a scout. Granted they cannot do that much damage alone, but they can last long enough that it just doesn't matter.Honourable mentions go to Brawlers as well, which are really effective classes due to their large amount of HP and huge damage attacks. Although honestly I could have just said "Scouts".</blockquote><p>Hmmmm.... by my count there are 18 other classes missing <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And ppl say the game isn't balanced....hmphf!</p>

[Gagla]

<cite>Vampirian2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll have a try at the top 5.1.<i> Swashbuckler</i>Their stealth attack is a knockback, their AoE is a knockback and they have reach which allows them to use these skills from a long way away. It also allows them to kite, an extremely powerful ability with the way targetting works - often a moving swashbuckler can be impossible to attack because of 'Can't see target' messages. When matched up with stealth and track, it makes the swashbuckler the most powerful of the scouts in PvP.2.<i>Ranger</i>Yes Focused Aim has been nerfed so a Ranger is no longer the machine of death that it once was. They still have good range, good damage, track and stealth. Range is pretty much king of PvP in EQ2 and it still allows them to do a lot of very quick damage to you and hopefully kill you from a decent distance away.It now requires quite a good player to master the Ranger, but once you've got it down it isn't hard racking up kill after kill.3.<i>Brigand</i>With the expansion, the Brigand has got vast amounts more HP, and a new version of dispatch which coincidentally does as much PvP debuff as the old one did pre nerf. Again having track, evac and stealth means brigands are very difficult opponents to beat due to them always being the ones who pick when and where to fight and doing large amounts of alpha strike damage. They also have stuns, although their PvP duration is extremely low.Their lack of knockbacks and range makes them weaker than the other two classes when it comes to PvP however.4.<i>Assassin</i>Again having track and evac makes them kings of PvP. However the assassin suffers from having so so many positional and stealth attacks. If their stifle runs out too early or is parried/deflected/blocked, the assassin often has no chance of a victory. They require a lot more skill to play than the other scouts do, therefore their place on the tree is lower.5.<i>Warlock/Warden</i>Warlocks have focused casting and manashield. Coupled with their new rift and other fancy AoEs a warlock can kill an entire group if they attack at the right time. They dish out huge amounts of damage and importantly can also take large amounts of damage while having their spells be uninterruptable unless you're a knockback king. However having a warlock stumble upon you is often just bad luck and any of the classes above this entry will have no problem only fighting them when the need arises.Wardens are one of the few classes that can heal through the alpha strike damage of a scout. Granted they cannot do that much damage alone, but they can last long enough that it just doesn't matter.Honourable mentions go to Brawlers as well, which are really effective classes due to their large amount of HP and huge damage attacks. Although honestly I could have just said "Scouts".</blockquote><p>Hmmmm.... by my count there are 18 other classes missing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p><p>And ppl say the game isn't balanced....hmphf!</p></blockquote>It's probably for the best that 24 classes didn't make it into the top 5.

[Bloodfa]

Can't debate that logic. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Magnis]

<p>okok, can someone pleazze make a full list of the 24 classes?  I would really love to see where some other classes stack in the pvp piramid.  </p>

[seejester]

<cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okok, can someone pleazze make a full list of the 24 classes?  I would really love to see where some other classes stack in the pvp piramid.  </p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small;color: #ffff00;">That's a tall order to fill. Very few people have played them all, and most are not memorable as particularly hard to beat, except of course in certain situations where class A is vulnerable to a nasty beating from class B. I play primarily a bruiser and a warden at T8, a brigand at T5.For my bruiser and warden, I have to agree with that fine list putting swashies at the top. NONE of my three classes have much chance against one, unless I know they're coming and I'm lucky. My warden, perhaps, has a decent shot against one, but my bruiser might as well run the moment he realizes it's a swashie/brigand (/sigh, and I used to eat them for breakfast at lower tiers).TBH, all of my strategy revolves around improving my chances against a swashie on my warden and a ranger on my bruiser. It was pointed out that range is king in this pvp game, and I'd have to agree with that. With server-side lag, my bruiser gets nothing but "can't see target" and "too far away" even when it appears I'm on top of them. That's because people know how to exploit the server lag, they just run around switching directions, knowing on my side they'll never sinc up on my screen.A bit off topic, but it always steams me that EQII can't render them in the right spot, but when I attack it seems to know they're too far away, grrr.</span>

[Tae]

<cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okok, can someone pleazze make a full list of the 24 classes?  I would really love to see where some other classes stack in the pvp piramid.  </p></blockquote>It's not really that easy. With many of the other classes it's very situational. For example if I attacked notsovilepriest while he was in combat with something else, or just after he'd finished a combat, he'd be dead in seconds. But if he saw me and had prewarded, he would end the fight on full health. Guardians, Berserkers, Troubadors and many other classes can all be very effective in PvP when played correctly and ranking them is impossible when playing them depends so heavily on the person at the keyboard.With that said, I could probably drop a bottom two on you. They'd be "Conjurer and Necromancer". I've only ever lost to conjurers when I have been ridiculously unlucky and for the short while that we had exile necromancers on Venekor they were basically just a ticket for a free token.

[Dreamo]

<p>Conjurors and necromancers suck because they have no burst dps, very little crowd control (stun for conjurors and fear for necromancers) and no means to defend themselves effectively (the tank pet taunt is broken and doesn't taunt human players). The two classes are among the best pve dps in the game but you need time to maximize it (somewhere about 10 seconds) because it is made of a lot of small dots, pets, little nukes and such.</p><p> I have a conjuror and it can be pretty nasty if given enough time to prebuff my pet and can pull out all of my pets. But in general no. I just die before I can increase my dps output to the level required to kill.</p><p>And on my swashbuckler summoners are the favorite targets tbh... So sad... Unfortunately they are on the bottom of the pvp list. That's for sure.</p>

[Diern]

<p>I dont know. I think every class has strengths and weaknesses.</p><p>Scouts across the board are the least of my worries when I play my Shadowknight. It doesnt matter that they constantly ambush me and get the jump. I can't remmeber losing to one, when its been a fair one on one fight. usually can handle the orange guys as well.</p><p>Healers on the other hand give me alot of grief.</p><p>In the end its pretty pointless making lists like this because, this is a group combat pvp game not a solo one. i would be more interested in what the best pvp group makeup was...</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>Diernes wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I dont know. I think every class has strengths and weaknesses.</p><p>Scouts across the board are the least of my worries when I play my Shadowknight. It doesnt matter that they constantly ambush me and get the jump. I can't remmeber losing to one, when its been a fair one on one fight. usually can handle the orange guys as well.</p><p>Healers on the other hand give me alot of grief.</p><p>In the end its pretty pointless making lists like this because, this is a group combat pvp game not a solo one. i would be more interested in what the best pvp group makeup was...</p></blockquote>Q Side:TemplarWardenGuardianRangerWarlockTroub/IllyBest Group Composition IMOFreeps:GuardianBrigCoercerWardenWarlockDefiler or Inq

[Sebhan]

<p>It's very sad what happened to my necro.  Lol I remember when these boards were filled with posts about people complaining about how powerful necro's were in pvp.  I just dont understand it, minus the burst dps we have a lot of tools that SHOULD be great in pvp including a stun, a root, fear, snare and an army of monsters to throw at you.  I remember it actually being very good, pretty much 1v1 never loosing the fight unless I was jumped and even then a quick lifetap would get me back into it.  Sad to see how far the mighty have fallen.</p><p>I don't know what the most powerful classes would be or the most powerful group setup would be, it all seems to come down to gear and suprise honeslty.  Just yesterday my 17 brig was grouped with another 17 brig and we were heading to G'fay.  Right near the docks in BB I met up with him telling me he was fighting a green twink druid that wasn't killing him but he was running out of power trying to kill him.  So I jump in with brig, we both have at least Adept 1 - Adept 3 CA and all the TD gear we can get at 17 through quests.  AA's are pretty high too.  It took all of our power and abilities, a few minutes of fighting to take this guy down.  A green!  Probably master level heals he was doing a great job.  In the end timely stuns got him I think.</p><p> We move on to G'fay and find other greens there questing, obviously not in the new gear and probably no where near the AA setup or spells/CA's a twink has and I can literally half shot them with my strangeling throw alone.</p><p>As far as group makup goes, well same night in G'Fay we added I think 2 more brigs and a warden, all my level or lower and we were taking on 2 reds at once and winning (some times lol), not very balanced but very effective.</p><p>So for me, rank classes all you want, Gear > skill > class.  Always has been always will be.  The only thing that trumps a twink is a well geared group (even some groups are not twink proof).  I don't like the solution of leveling to high levels just to twink and compete, only creates more of them, I would rather people just level to high level and stay there.  I am trying to myself (have to stop and enjoy the tier once in awhile though), just hope it's fun when I get there.</p>

[Omgidomms]

<p>#24 necromancersSolo: A solo necro (without a second heroic pet) is pretty much doomed when it comes to solo pvp fights.It can beat some classes but most good players know how to kill a necro.Group: A wizard, warlock or coercer will replace any necromancer in pvp groups, and their "a bit of everything" build just makes them worst at everything in pvp.</p><p>Why do i think necromancers suck so much in pvp?- As a necro you need to cast around 8 spells to build up the same dps as 1 nuke from a wizard.- 50% of the dmg is pet-based and easly killed by aoe's- The overall dps in a pvp fight even with built up dps is just not enough to make them good- They got no manashield or immune to interupt stuff, they also got no temp buff to lower their resist rates.What does necromancer do well in pvp?- They got a long-range rez- They can fd (every 5min, yar that is nice..)- They got lifeburn (5sec cast dot that ticks for ca 400pr sec)- They got undead tideI would put conjurers at #23 cause their slightly better in pvp, but just slightly <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Evenstar]

<cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is very well written, and should also say something about the state of eq2 pvp. <b>Not to mention, a Warden has the fastest heals</b> in the game,evac,snare,root,melee spec,best power pool,power buffs,45% run buff,they just need plate armor and tracking.</blockquote><p>Wrong, fury has faster heals...just a hell of a lot squishier (I'm quite sure I've seen a 2.0 second casting time on the warden primary heal, and I'm pretty sure that furies have it for 1.0 second casting time...it's probably why I steal all the Blessing of Faith HOs). If only Back into the Fray/Return to the Pack could be cast on the fury <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />....*sigh*</p><p>Also, wardens are pretty much equal to bad plate tanks with their mit buffs.</p>

[Ashr]

Notso makes me a sad panda <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  No aurrora listed in his ultimate pvp group list, or synter for that matter!

[Notsovilepriest]

Synter, Its ok just a dirge doesnt cut it, but I'll take Aurrora <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Ashr]

At least you picked one of us <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[mtwideen]

Notso, you are crazy... best pvp set up is Dirge DirgeDirgeDirge.... that is all we need, we don't even need 6 people casue it is that good of a group... if we had 6 ina group, we would get banned for exploiting the game, cause we are that good

[Darman81]

Wheres the Defiler in here! Oh yes the forgotten pvp powerhouse LOL! Ok I know thats a joke but I must say from 14-19 so far I am very happy with my Defiler. Only playing solo do I do well but I will tell you this. The class is a challenge and In solo pvp I have had great success against all classes. My self ward is rarely interrupted and I can absorb a heck of a lot before people realize they are wasting their time hitting me. Throw up the self ward for 350 hit points and watch an orange swashbuckler or Ranger waste all those combat arts. Of course panic sets in and they run so they can hit their stealth and dissapear. I love it when my DOT just keeps ticking and breaks the stealth. And with the intelligence line AA crits you can do some pretty nice dps. Now I know at higher tiers they stink but T2 im having a blast. Group pvp I just suck! Group ward too slow and constant interrupts so dont even try. Ive only had four solo fights against T2 wardens and I have won three so thats an accomplishment in itself.

[Splintered]

<cite>Evenstar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is very well written, and should also say something about the state of eq2 pvp. <b>Not to mention, a Warden has the fastest heals</b> in the game,evac,snare,root,melee spec,best power pool,power buffs,45% run buff,they just need plate armor and tracking.</blockquote><p>Wrong, fury has faster heals...just a hell of a lot squishier (I'm quite sure I've seen a 2.0 second casting time on the warden primary heal, and I'm pretty sure that furies have it for 1.0 second casting time...it's probably why I steal all the Blessing of Faith HOs). If only Back into the Fray/Return to the Pack could be cast on the fury <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />....*sigh*</p><p>Also, wardens are pretty much equal to bad plate tanks with their mit buffs.</p></blockquote>fury and warden casting speeds are the same for their heals..

[Tatate]

<cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll have a try at the top 5.1.<i> Swashbuckler</i>Their stealth attack is a knockback, their AoE is a knockback and they have reach which allows them to use these skills from a long way away. It also allows them to kite, an extremely powerful ability with the way targetting works - often a moving swashbuckler can be impossible to attack because of 'Can't see target' messages. When matched up with stealth and track, it makes the swashbuckler the most powerful of the scouts in PvP.2.<i>Ranger</i>Yes Focused Aim has been nerfed so a Ranger is no longer the machine of death that it once was. They still have good range, good damage, track and stealth. Range is pretty much king of PvP in EQ2 and it still allows them to do a lot of very quick damage to you and hopefully kill you from a decent distance away.It now requires quite a good player to master the Ranger, but once you've got it down it isn't hard racking up kill after kill.3.<i>Brigand</i>With the expansion, the Brigand has got vast amounts more HP, and a new version of dispatch which coincidentally does as much PvP debuff as the old one did pre nerf. Again having track, evac and stealth means brigands are very difficult opponents to beat due to them always being the ones who pick when and where to fight and doing large amounts of alpha strike damage. They also have stuns, although their PvP duration is extremely low.Their lack of knockbacks and range makes them weaker than the other two classes when it comes to PvP however.4.<i>Assassin</i>Again having track and evac makes them kings of PvP. However the assassin suffers from having so so many positional and stealth attacks. If their stifle runs out too early or is parried/deflected/blocked, the assassin often has no chance of a victory. They require a lot more skill to play than the other scouts do, therefore their place on the tree is lower.5.<i>Warlock/Warden</i>Warlocks have focused casting and manashield. Coupled with their new rift and other fancy AoEs a warlock can kill an entire group if they attack at the right time. They dish out huge amounts of damage and importantly can also take large amounts of damage while having their spells be uninterruptable unless you're a knockback king. However having a warlock stumble upon you is often just bad luck and any of the classes above this entry will have no problem only fighting them when the need arises.Wardens are one of the few classes that can heal through the alpha strike damage of a scout. Granted they cannot do that much damage alone, but they can last long enough that it just doesn't matter.Honourable mentions go to Brawlers as well, which are really effective classes due to their large amount of HP and huge damage attacks. Although honestly I could have just said "Scouts".</blockquote>This is very well written, and should also say something about the state of eq2 pvp. Not to mention, a Warden has the fastest heals in the game,evac,snare,root,melee spec,best power pool,power buffs,45% run buff,they just need plate armor and tracking.</blockquote>Wardens can get around 50% mit self buffed with good armor.

[Cigam]

<p>My perfect group set up would be....</p><p>Me</p><p>warlock</p><p>warlock</p><p>beserker</p><p>swash</p><p>healer (not needed for fight... just in case we fall down a mountain or something)</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Cigam@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My perfect group set up would be....</p><p>Me</p><p>warlock</p><p>warlock</p><p>beserker</p><p>swash</p><p>healer (not needed for fight... just in case we fall down a mountain or something)</p></blockquote>1 enchanter in a group with some decent dps and a cpl of healers and that isnt a very good group. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tae]

<cite>Sorzo@Venekor wrote:</cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>Wardens can get around 50% mit self buffed with good armor.</blockquote>Hence the reason that Plate Armour is all but worthless. Pikk, my Berserker, has 58% mitigation. Taear, my Brigand, has 58%. Hurray for plate armour. Taear also has 2000 more health. Why even bother with a plate tank?

[Norrsken]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sorzo@Venekor wrote:</cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>Wardens can get around 50% mit self buffed with good armor.</blockquote>Hence the reason that Plate Armour is all but worthless. Pikk, my Berserker, has 58% mitigation. Taear, my Brigand, has 58%. Hurray for plate armour. Taear also has 2000 more health. Why even bother with a plate tank?</blockquote>My inqy can reach 62ish % selfbuffed in good gear.in fact, my inqy is at 57 in mc. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[deepruntramp]

<cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okok, can someone pleazze make a full list of the 24 classes?  I would really love to see where some other classes stack in the pvp piramid.  </p></blockquote>From best to worst across the majority of tiers in solo PvP:1.) Swashbuckler - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, reach + more stuns / less debuffs = better than brig2.) Brigand - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, debuffs make plate a joke3.) Ranger - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, disgusting movespeed, potential for longest range in the game with best DPS4.) Assassin - very powerful balanced by being somewhat difficult to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, probably best burst DPS in the game but requires positional melee range5.) Warden - best PvP healer in the game, for being defensively oriented they still have a great offense, always-available SoW, the only class that can reliably survive an alpha strike from one of the above, overpowered early but falls closer in line later on as Scout DPS spirals out of control.6.) Fury - heals + wizard-quality nukes for half the game in leather armor with always-available SoW.  has fallen out of favor recently due to wrist-slapping nerfs and poor scaling in T6+7.) Brusier - great burst DPS and avoidance, one big heal with a big cooldown, plenty of knockdown, drag8.) Monk - worse DPS than a Bruiser but much, much more defense, may as well be immune to spells and status effects thanks to late-game abilities, sort of frustrating to get to that point however, self-heal similar to brusier9.) Shadowknight - more survivable than they initially appear, good DPS.  downsides are no reliable method to stop runners aside from harm touch, and many of their sources of DPS are spells, which sort of suck later on due to the prevalence of resists10.) Warlock - potential for horrific DPS against groups, but very rarely lives up to that potential due to being easily killed or locked down by a Scout.  manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.11.) Wizard - potential for single-target annihilation, but spells can (easily) be resisted while CAs can't, basically a predator with none of the defensive advantages, manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.12.) Coercer - potential for great crowd control but very few groups understand or care about mez, almost all spells are mental resist, which is way too frequent on armor in numbers which are way too high.  can own button masher classes like the top 5, downside being they have practically no defensive maneuvers, getting resisted = death, hard to maintain a low profile13.) Inquisitor - very slow start but gets better later, has a 100% melee crit AA spec and a melee spell -> CA spec, problem is no range and very little way to stop runners save for items and a single root around 40.  not easy to play.14.) Templar - very slow start but gets better later, has 100% melee crit AA spec but no spell -> CA so it's not as great as Inqs.  top advantage is that few know how to fight a templar.  not easy to play.15.) Illusionist - all the problems of the coercer with worse performance in PvP, tradeoff is a more reliable pet and twice the DPS in PvE.  PvP is over so quickly generally that Illusionists' superior sustained DPS goes to waste.  relies on procs to do damage, so somewhat luck based in EQ2's blink-of-an-eye PvP16.) Berserker - a plate tank, supposedly more DPS than a Guardian but it remains to be seen how much the addition of T8 affected these two classes' roles.  has several knockdowns and stfiles but not many ways to chase down runners and relies entirely on HP pool, in-combat regen, and armor to survive -- all of which don't matter much in EQ2 PvP.  difficult to play, good timing and knowledge of your opponent required.17.) Paladin - very survivable early on, later they just can't keep up with the out-of-control DPS numbers certain classes can spew out.  pretty terrible offensive options.  clearly a class designed for support PvE.18.) Guardian - the other plate tank, supposedly better defense than a Berserker, but defense is nearly meaningless in EQ2 PvP as it's always preferable to just kill the other guy before he kills you.  probably the best crowd controller in the game thanks to taunts... but that's about all Guardians have going for them.  with a healer they can last forever, but they lack options solo and can be quite frustrating to level up19.) Mystic - spell -> CA line, AGI shaman tree is +crit and +IAS, Scourge is a one-shot kill early on, SoW, excrutiatingly slow cast times on wards and heals, not enough DPS to compete.  a fine addition to groups, otherwise you should probably stay in instances.20.) Defiler - no CA line and thus stuck with spells and their resist troubles, all the Mystic's weaknesses, better wards but wards aren't enough.  a fine addition to groups, really desired on raids, but very rare for a very good reason.21.) Troubador - not really ever good solo, track, movespeed, even better buffs than a dirge but even worse DPS.  also great at avoiding combat, also totally inviable solo.  of course, you can charm the one-shot T8 pets, but don't expect that to last forever.  you have good buffs for groups but most pvp groups want 1 tank 1 healer and 4 DPS, so your role as support is marginalized at best.22.) Dirge - actually kind of good early, track, movespeed, great buffs, but DPS just can't keep up later.  fantastic at avoiding combat but otherwise terrible solo.  buffs and support skills, ie the class's role, are worse than a troub.23.) Conjuror - downright broken in pvp, pet is pointless, poor damage, no defense, you're a token vending machine.  only better than necromancers cause you get a cople spells that blur vision and knockback.24.) Necromancer - the worst pvp class for a reason.  pointless pet, poor damage, no survivability, lifeburn but you'll probably die to one of the ubiquitous DOTs a second later.  if the conjuror is a token vending machine, you're a hacked token slot machine which always coughs up three sevens every time someone attacks you.  you have fear which never works and a snare which never works.  reroll.Really only the top and bottom are clear.  Anything between 7-19 is mostly a matter of individual skill.  The top five are the best because they require virtually no strategy or talent to dominate PvP, while the bottom five suck no matter how great the player behind them is.

[mtwideen]

One thing about the above list, is I think troubs are better than dirges. I used to be a troub, but I exiled to dirge becasue the people I group with are almost all melee, so I have experience with both. The mez and charm are much more useful than the fear and rez (being useless solo). They have an aoe knockback stifle, while we(dirges) have an interrupt, the stifle is much more useful. They have jesters while we have a life transfer (again useless in solo) and they have another stife while we have a root, both are pretty useful. They also have a power drain which gives them a better chance against healers (not much, but a bit better) so anyways, I'm pretty sure, troubs are much better soloers than dirges, in groups, it depends on group set up...

[deepruntramp]

<cite>mtwideen wrote:</cite><blockquote>One thing about the above list, is I think troubs are better than dirges. I used to be a troub, but I exiled to dirge becasue the people I group with are almost all melee, so I have experience with both. The mez and charm are much more useful than the fear and rez (being useless solo). They have an aoe knockback stifle, while we(dirges) have an interrupt, the stifle is much more useful. They have jesters while we have a life transfer (again useless in solo) and they have another stife while we have a root, both are pretty useful. They also have a power drain which gives them a better chance against healers (not much, but a bit better) so anyways, I'm pretty sure, troubs are much better soloers than dirges, in groups, it depends on group set up...</blockquote>My mistake, I thought Dirges had charm instead of Troubs.  Troubs would be better than Dirges in that case.

[mtwideen]

lol, that's better, I wanna be where I deserve... below troubs and right near the bottom <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lol.

[Wraithstalker]

<cite>deepruntramp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okok, can someone pleazze make a full list of the 24 classes?  I would really love to see where some other classes stack in the pvp piramid.  </p></blockquote>From best to worst across the majority of tiers in solo PvP:1.) Swashbuckler - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, reach + more stuns / less debuffs = better than brig2.) Brigand - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, debuffs make plate a joke3.) Ranger - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, disgusting movespeed, potential for longest range in the game with best DPS4.) Assassin - very powerful balanced by being somewhat difficult to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, probably best burst DPS in the game but requires positional melee range5.) Warden - best PvP healer in the game, for being defensively oriented they still have a great offense, always-available SoW, the only class that can reliably survive an alpha strike from one of the above, overpowered early but falls closer in line later on as Scout DPS spirals out of control.6.) Fury - heals + wizard-quality nukes for half the game in leather armor with always-available SoW.  has fallen out of favor recently due to wrist-slapping nerfs and poor scaling in T6+7.) Brusier - great burst DPS and avoidance, one big heal with a big cooldown, plenty of knockdown, drag8.) Monk - worse DPS than a Bruiser but much, much more defense, may as well be immune to spells and status effects thanks to late-game abilities, sort of frustrating to get to that point however, self-heal similar to brusier9.) Shadowknight - more survivable than they initially appear, good DPS.  downsides are no reliable method to stop runners aside from harm touch, and many of their sources of DPS are spells, which sort of suck later on due to the prevalence of resists10.) Warlock - potential for horrific DPS against groups, but very rarely lives up to that potential due to being easily killed or locked down by a Scout.  manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.11.) Wizard - potential for single-target annihilation, but spells can (easily) be resisted while CAs can't, basically a predator with none of the defensive advantages, manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.12.) Coercer - potential for great crowd control but very few groups understand or care about mez, almost all spells are mental resist, which is way too frequent on armor in numbers which are way too high.  can own button masher classes like the top 5, downside being they have practically no defensive maneuvers, getting resisted = death, hard to maintain a low profile13.) Inquisitor - very slow start but gets better later, has a 100% melee crit AA spec and a melee spell -> CA spec, problem is no range and very little way to stop runners save for items and a single root around 40.  not easy to play.14.) Templar - very slow start but gets better later, has 100% melee crit AA spec but no spell -> CA so it's not as great as Inqs.  top advantage is that few know how to fight a templar.  not easy to play.15.) Illusionist - all the problems of the coercer with worse performance in PvP, tradeoff is a more reliable pet and twice the DPS in PvE.  PvP is over so quickly generally that Illusionists' superior sustained DPS goes to waste.  relies on procs to do damage, so somewhat luck based in EQ2's blink-of-an-eye PvP16.) Berserker - a plate tank, supposedly more DPS than a Guardian but it remains to be seen how much the addition of T8 affected these two classes' roles.  has several knockdowns and stfiles but not many ways to chase down runners and relies entirely on HP pool, in-combat regen, and armor to survive -- all of which don't matter much in EQ2 PvP.  difficult to play, good timing and knowledge of your opponent required.17.) Paladin - very survivable early on, later they just can't keep up with the out-of-control DPS numbers certain classes can spew out.  pretty terrible offensive options.  clearly a class designed for support PvE.18.) Guardian - the other plate tank, supposedly better defense than a Berserker, but defense is nearly meaningless in EQ2 PvP as it's always preferable to just kill the other guy before he kills you.  probably the best crowd controller in the game thanks to taunts... but that's about all Guardians have going for them.  with a healer they can last forever, but they lack options solo and can be quite frustrating to level up19.) Mystic - spell -> CA line, AGI shaman tree is +crit and +IAS, Scourge is a one-shot kill early on, SoW, excrutiatingly slow cast times on wards and heals, not enough DPS to compete.  a fine addition to groups, otherwise you should probably stay in instances.20.) Defiler - no CA line and thus stuck with spells and their resist troubles, all the Mystic's weaknesses, better wards but wards aren't enough.  a fine addition to groups, really desired on raids, but very rare for a very good reason.21.) Troubador - not really ever good solo, track, movespeed, even better buffs than a dirge but even worse DPS.  also great at avoiding combat, also totally inviable solo.  of course, you can charm the one-shot T8 pets, but don't expect that to last forever.  you have good buffs for groups but most pvp groups want 1 tank 1 healer and 4 DPS, so your role as support is marginalized at best.22.) Dirge - actually kind of good early, track, movespeed, great buffs, but DPS just can't keep up later.  fantastic at avoiding combat but otherwise terrible solo.  buffs and support skills, ie the class's role, are worse than a troub.23.) Conjuror - downright broken in pvp, pet is pointless, poor damage, no defense, you're a token vending machine.  only better than necromancers cause you get a cople spells that blur vision and knockback.24.) Necromancer - the worst pvp class for a reason.  pointless pet, poor damage, no survivability, lifeburn but you'll probably die to one of the ubiquitous DOTs a second later.  if the conjuror is a token vending machine, you're a hacked token slot machine which always coughs up three sevens every time someone attacks you.  you have fear which never works and a snare which never works.  reroll.Really only the top and bottom are clear.  Anything between 7-19 is mostly a matter of individual skill.  The top five are the best because they require virtually no strategy or talent to dominate PvP, while the bottom five suck no matter how great the player behind them is.</blockquote>I'd just like to say thank you for your post, it's very helpful to me to see which of my toons i should keep pvping on. Player skill aside, there is a real gulf in abilities and so I don't want to get too frustrated thinking my toon is underperfoeming. I know who to look out for now too!

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Ratzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>#24 necromancersSolo: A solo necro (without a second heroic pet) is pretty much doomed when it comes to solo pvp fights.It can beat some classes but most good players know how to kill a necro.Group: A wizard, warlock or coercer will replace any necromancer in pvp groups, and their "a bit of everything" build just makes them worst at everything in pvp.</p><p>Why do i think necromancers suck so much in pvp?- As a necro you need to cast around 8 spells to build up the same dps as 1 nuke from a wizard.- 50% of the dmg is pet-based and easly killed by aoe's- The overall dps in a pvp fight even with built up dps is just not enough to make them good- They got no manashield or immune to interupt stuff, they also got no temp buff to lower their resist rates.What does necromancer do well in pvp?- They got a long-range rez- They can fd (every 5min, yar that is nice..)- They got lifeburn (5sec cast dot that ticks for ca 400pr sec)- They got undead tideI would put conjurers at #23 cause their slightly better in pvp, but just slightly <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>Necros do get a WIS/STA debuff (which replaced our old Poison/Disease debuffs) which helps our spells land.  Our pets also decrease poison and disease resists.</p><p>I solo a necro in PVP - sometimes I grp with guildies, but I suually solo quest and harvest when not raiding so,....</p><p>IF I get the jump on you in PVP,  IF my FEAR (with 5 aa points wasting away in it) does NOT get resisted (like it invariably does), IF I can spam my add pets on you fast enough, sic my main pet on you, Root you and drop Consumption on you,  I will mopst likely KILL you.  Lof of IFs here.  </p><p>In t2 and early t3 a good necro can pwn most other classes.  Furies get a big nuke in the early 20's so they sometimes gave me a run for my money.  In t7 I just wondered how many Q were fully out fitted in PVP gear becuase the DEVS hate my class so much.    I think the main reason they dont want to bring back beast lords is becuase the class would appeal to a broader base than necros/conjys do and then the community would see the devs for what they are - summoner hating programers and designers that delight in the big neon sign attached to our avatar that every scout can see blinking for miles around  - free tokens here.</p><p> As a class we are forced to waste a terrible amount of AA into the tank pet line, thus effectively destroying our raid DPS, for the hope that the TUANT a will save our ahrse for a sec to get at least a 2nd or 3rd spell off before we become monce meant.   I saw a swashie charging me today stealthes,  I targeted and waited for him ot get in range of my fear (25m) I began casting - Well swashies can hit at 15m so I ge interupted,  I get it off, it gets resisted, I begin to cast life tap - I am dead.  Swashy was able to land 15 hits on me in the same amount of time I was able to get off a worthless fear and almost a life tap.  My master1 mage pet, with all master1 pet buffs, did not even dent the swashy and was resisted several times - I was happy to see a master pet with so many AA points in him beig wasted on a pvp target.  I laughed to my self knowing what that pet can do on raids and what it cannot do in pvp.    I took comfort in the fact that I was at least not on the run becuase then, even ahving spotted the swashy, I would have wasted 3seconds having to actually summon my pet to me befre I could tell it to engage - more anti summoner love by the devs - pets that fall so far behind us our DPS does not arrive to the fight untill we are almost dead.</p>

[Diern]

<p>That is actually a really good list. I would actually rank Shadowknight a little higher, (providing its well equiped and played.) but the weaknesses you list for the class is very accurate. In my experience an SK can trump just about any class in a 1 on 1 fight but they cant be classed as top teir because they dont have the stopping power (minus harmtouch) or hunting prowess of the top 5 you mention.</p><p>Apart from the Swashbuckler A Shadowknight should take down each and every one of those classes on your top 5 list everytime.</p><p>Player skill is always going to be the equalizer though....</p>

[Siphar]

<cite>deepruntramp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okok, can someone pleazze make a full list of the 24 classes?  I would really love to see where some other classes stack in the pvp piramid.  </p></blockquote>From best to worst across the majority of tiers in solo PvP:1.) Swashbuckler - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, reach + more stuns / less debuffs = better than brig2.) Brigand - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, debuffs make plate a joke3.) Ranger - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, disgusting movespeed, potential for longest range in the game with best DPS4.) <span style="color: #ff3366;">Assassin</span> - very powerful balanced by being <span style="color: #ff3366;">somewhat difficult to play</span>, track, evac, chain, movespeed, probably best burst DPS in the game but requires positional melee range5.) Warden - best PvP healer in the game, for being defensively oriented they still have a great offense, always-available SoW, the only class that can reliably survive an alpha strike from one of the above, overpowered early but falls closer in line later on as Scout DPS spirals out of control.6.) Fury - heals + wizard-quality nukes for half the game in leather armor with always-available SoW.  has fallen out of favor recently due to wrist-slapping nerfs and poor scaling in T6+7.) Brusier - great burst DPS and avoidance, one big heal with a big cooldown, plenty of knockdown, drag8.) Monk - worse DPS than a Bruiser but much, much more defense, may as well be immune to spells and status effects thanks to late-game abilities, sort of frustrating to get to that point however, self-heal similar to brusier9.) Shadowknight - more survivable than they initially appear, good DPS.  downsides are no reliable method to stop runners aside from harm touch, and many of their sources of DPS are spells, which sort of suck later on due to the prevalence of resists10.) Warlock - potential for horrific DPS against groups, but very rarely lives up to that potential due to being easily killed or locked down by a Scout.  manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.11.) Wizard - potential for single-target annihilation, but spells can (easily) be resisted while CAs can't, basically a predator with none of the defensive advantages, manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.<span style="color: #ff3366;">12.) Coercer</span> - potential for great crowd control but very few groups understand or care about mez, almost all spells are mental resist, which is way too frequent on armor in numbers which are way too high.  can own button masher classes like the top 5, downside being they have practically no defensive maneuvers, getting resisted = death, hard to maintain a low profile13.) Inquisitor - very slow start but gets better later, has a 100% melee crit AA spec and a melee spell -> CA spec, problem is no range and very little way to stop runners save for items and a single root around 40.  not easy to play.14.) Templar - very slow start but gets better later, has 100% melee crit AA spec but no spell -> CA so it's not as great as Inqs.  top advantage is that few know how to fight a templar.  not easy to play.<span style="color: #ff3366;">15.) Illusionist </span>- all the problems of the coercer with worse performance in PvP, tradeoff is a more reliable pet and twice the DPS in PvE.  PvP is over so quickly generally that Illusionists' superior sustained DPS goes to waste.  relies on procs to do damage, so somewhat luck based in EQ2's blink-of-an-eye PvP16.) Berserker - a plate tank, supposedly more DPS than a Guardian but it remains to be seen how much the addition of T8 affected these two classes' roles.  has several knockdowns and stfiles but not many ways to chase down runners and relies entirely on HP pool, in-combat regen, and armor to survive -- all of which don't matter much in EQ2 PvP.  difficult to play, good timing and knowledge of your opponent required.17.) Paladin - very survivable early on, later they just can't keep up with the out-of-control DPS numbers certain classes can spew out.  pretty terrible offensive options.  clearly a class designed for support PvE.18.) Guardian - the other plate tank, supposedly better defense than a Berserker, but defense is nearly meaningless in EQ2 PvP as it's always preferable to just kill the other guy before he kills you.  probably the best crowd controller in the game thanks to taunts... but that's about all Guardians have going for them.  with a healer they can last forever, but they lack options solo and can be quite frustrating to level up19.) Mystic - spell -> CA line, AGI shaman tree is +crit and +IAS, Scourge is a one-shot kill early on, SoW, excrutiatingly slow cast times on wards and heals, not enough DPS to compete.  a fine addition to groups, otherwise you should probably stay in instances.20.) Defiler - no CA line and thus stuck with spells and their resist troubles, all the Mystic's weaknesses, better wards but wards aren't enough.  a fine addition to groups, really desired on raids, but very rare for a very good reason.21.) Troubador - not really ever good solo, track, movespeed, even better buffs than a dirge but even worse DPS.  also great at avoiding combat, also totally inviable solo.  of course, you can charm the one-shot T8 pets, but don't expect that to last forever.  you have good buffs for groups but most pvp groups want 1 tank 1 healer and 4 DPS, so your role as support is marginalized at best.22.) Dirge - actually kind of good early, track, movespeed, great buffs, but DPS just can't keep up later.  fantastic at avoiding combat but otherwise terrible solo.  buffs and support skills, ie the class's role, are worse than a troub.23.) Conjuror - downright broken in pvp, pet is pointless, poor damage, no defense, you're a token vending machine.  only better than necromancers cause you get a cople spells that blur vision and knockback.24.) Necromancer - the worst pvp class for a reason.  pointless pet, poor damage, no survivability, lifeburn but you'll probably die to one of the ubiquitous DOTs a second later.  if the conjuror is a token vending machine, you're a hacked token slot machine which always coughs up three sevens every time someone attacks you.  you have fear which never works and a snare which never works.  reroll.Really only the top and bottom are clear.  Anything between 7-19 is mostly a matter of individual skill.  The top five are the best because they require virtually no strategy or talent to dominate PvP, while the bottom five suck no matter how great the player behind them is.</blockquote><p>Illusionist >> coercer in PvP. I am sure almost everyone will agree.</p><p>The illusionist has far superior DPS (apart from some very specific charmed mobs).. illusionists can also mez on the run = invaluable.</p><p>I would probably place assassin's lower and raise the brawlers. Assasin's are [Removed for Content] after concleament is broken (which breaks way too easily for my liking in PvP from any type of damage). After concleamnet is gone, most of the DPS evaporates and the lvl 80 ability is un-usable or very low damage after a single CA. Rangers have comparable (if not more) damage which is trivial to deal.. being at range and requiring few to no positional requirements.</p><p>To be a successful assassin, you have to be very well geared, very experienced and lucky. A <b>very</b> situational class..</p><p>Sticky this list <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Omgidomms]

<p>Nice list <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Amphibia]

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>deepruntramp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>okok, can someone pleazze make a full list of the 24 classes?  I would really love to see where some other classes stack in the pvp piramid.  </p></blockquote>From best to worst across the majority of tiers in solo PvP:1.) Swashbuckler - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, reach + more stuns / less debuffs = better than brig2.) Brigand - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, movespeed, debuffs make plate a joke3.) Ranger - overpowered, trivially easy to play, track, evac, chain, disgusting movespeed, potential for longest range in the game with best DPS4.) <span style="color: #ff3366;">Assassin</span> - very powerful balanced by being <span style="color: #ff3366;">somewhat difficult to play</span>, track, evac, chain, movespeed, probably best burst DPS in the game but requires positional melee range5.) Warden - best PvP healer in the game, for being defensively oriented they still have a great offense, always-available SoW, the only class that can reliably survive an alpha strike from one of the above, overpowered early but falls closer in line later on as Scout DPS spirals out of control.6.) Fury - heals + wizard-quality nukes for half the game in leather armor with always-available SoW.  has fallen out of favor recently due to wrist-slapping nerfs and poor scaling in T6+7.) Brusier - great burst DPS and avoidance, one big heal with a big cooldown, plenty of knockdown, drag8.) Monk - worse DPS than a Bruiser but much, much more defense, may as well be immune to spells and status effects thanks to late-game abilities, sort of frustrating to get to that point however, self-heal similar to brusier9.) Shadowknight - more survivable than they initially appear, good DPS.  downsides are no reliable method to stop runners aside from harm touch, and many of their sources of DPS are spells, which sort of suck later on due to the prevalence of resists10.) Warlock - potential for horrific DPS against groups, but very rarely lives up to that potential due to being easily killed or locked down by a Scout.  manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.11.) Wizard - potential for single-target annihilation, but spells can (easily) be resisted while CAs can't, basically a predator with none of the defensive advantages, manashield makes them one of the most survivable INT classes, but doesn't save them from being an INT class.<span style="color: #ff3366;">12.) Coercer</span> - potential for great crowd control but very few groups understand or care about mez, almost all spells are mental resist, which is way too frequent on armor in numbers which are way too high.  can own button masher classes like the top 5, downside being they have practically no defensive maneuvers, getting resisted = death, hard to maintain a low profile13.) Inquisitor - very slow start but gets better later, has a 100% melee crit AA spec and a melee spell -> CA spec, problem is no range and very little way to stop runners save for items and a single root around 40.  not easy to play.14.) Templar - very slow start but gets better later, has 100% melee crit AA spec but no spell -> CA so it's not as great as Inqs.  top advantage is that few know how to fight a templar.  not easy to play.<span style="color: #ff3366;">15.) Illusionist </span>- all the problems of the coercer with worse performance in PvP, tradeoff is a more reliable pet and twice the DPS in PvE.  PvP is over so quickly generally that Illusionists' superior sustained DPS goes to waste.  relies on procs to do damage, so somewhat luck based in EQ2's blink-of-an-eye PvP16.) Berserker - a plate tank, supposedly more DPS than a Guardian but it remains to be seen how much the addition of T8 affected these two classes' roles.  has several knockdowns and stfiles but not many ways to chase down runners and relies entirely on HP pool, in-combat regen, and armor to survive -- all of which don't matter much in EQ2 PvP.  difficult to play, good timing and knowledge of your opponent required.17.) Paladin - very survivable early on, later they just can't keep up with the out-of-control DPS numbers certain classes can spew out.  pretty terrible offensive options.  clearly a class designed for support PvE.18.) Guardian - the other plate tank, supposedly better defense than a Berserker, but defense is nearly meaningless in EQ2 PvP as it's always preferable to just kill the other guy before he kills you.  probably the best crowd controller in the game thanks to taunts... but that's about all Guardians have going for them.  with a healer they can last forever, but they lack options solo and can be quite frustrating to level up19.) Mystic - spell -> CA line, AGI shaman tree is +crit and +IAS, Scourge is a one-shot kill early on, SoW, excrutiatingly slow cast times on wards and heals, not enough DPS to compete.  a fine addition to groups, otherwise you should probably stay in instances.20.) Defiler - no CA line and thus stuck with spells and their resist troubles, all the Mystic's weaknesses, better wards but wards aren't enough.  a fine addition to groups, really desired on raids, but very rare for a very good reason.21.) Troubador - not really ever good solo, track, movespeed, even better buffs than a dirge but even worse DPS.  also great at avoiding combat, also totally inviable solo.  of course, you can charm the one-shot T8 pets, but don't expect that to last forever.  you have good buffs for groups but most pvp groups want 1 tank 1 healer and 4 DPS, so your role as support is marginalized at best.22.) Dirge - actually kind of good early, track, movespeed, great buffs, but DPS just can't keep up later.  fantastic at avoiding combat but otherwise terrible solo.  buffs and support skills, ie the class's role, are worse than a troub.23.) Conjuror - downright broken in pvp, pet is pointless, poor damage, no defense, you're a token vending machine.  only better than necromancers cause you get a cople spells that blur vision and knockback.24.) Necromancer - the worst pvp class for a reason.  pointless pet, poor damage, no survivability, lifeburn but you'll probably die to one of the ubiquitous DOTs a second later.  if the conjuror is a token vending machine, you're a hacked token slot machine which always coughs up three sevens every time someone attacks you.  you have fear which never works and a snare which never works.  reroll.Really only the top and bottom are clear.  Anything between 7-19 is mostly a matter of individual skill.  The top five are the best because they require virtually no strategy or talent to dominate PvP, while the bottom five suck no matter how great the player behind them is.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Illusionist >> coercer in PvP. I am sure almost everyone will agree.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">The illusionist has far superior DPS (apart from some very specific charmed mobs).. illusionists can also mez on the run = invaluable.</span></p><p>I would probably place assassin's lower and raise the brawlers. Assasin's are [Removed for Content] after concleament is broken (which breaks way too easily for my liking in PvP from any type of damage). After concleamnet is gone, most of the DPS evaporates and the lvl 80 ability is un-usable or very low damage after a single CA. Rangers have comparable (if not more) damage which is trivial to deal.. being at range and requiring few to no positional requirements.</p><p>To be a successful assassin, you have to be very well geared, very experienced and lucky. A <b>very</b> situational class..</p><p>Sticky this list <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>The tables have turned, mate.  With RoK, the pets you can use are extremely powerful compared to an illusionist pet. Some of your pets can literally one-shot people, and the weaker pets are also very strong simply because solo mobs hits much harder than now than they used to. When I solo on my mage, I simply can't have a mob on me, because it will kill me even quicker than a lot of players.And a mez that can be cast through a stun is just as invaluable as a mez that can be cast on the run. If you were attacked by brigands every 5 minutes like illusionists are these days, you would know that. It is also true that illusionist DPS is very reliant of procs, so you need to have a lot of these items AND be lucky. And most PvP fights are over long before an illusionist's DPS truly comes into play, because it is based on DoT's with extra on termination. It never reaches that point, usually. There is one thing illusionists still do better, and that is catching people on the run. As for assassins, I agree with the original list. I think assassins are an overall much better class than bruisers and monks. They have track, evac and superior DPS, so 4th place on the list is probably very accurate. Sure, they are perhaps the most difficult predator class to play - and far more difficult than rouges... but also very strong against a lot of classes. Perhaps not so much against brawlers, but if an assassin hates to fight certain classes - he can simply avoid them. It is really that easy. Hell, I get jumped by assassins all the time on my monk, so I'm guessing they think they have a fair chance against me. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. Remember that even though a brawler may be capable of killing an assassin, that same brawler cannot find easy targets for tokens, nor escape when the gank squads come.... Otherwise, very nice list... though I would perhaps also place shadowknights above monks and bruisers. Oh, another thing about dirges and troubadors. If you play a troub, you will far less useful than you should be if you on a server like Nagafen. Why? Because 90% of the DPS you should have been able to buff are melee, since there are like 20 scouts pr. mage on PvP servers. That too is for a reason, as the author of that list has also pointed out.

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>Hope the devs are reading this list.</p><p>I have noticed an improvement with my guardian for t8 solo pvp.  I am respeced down buckler line for leveling (I dont llike to raid with this line) and have done well against almost every class except mystics (10k preward - guardians dream about the kind of dps needed to break that wall down) and Sorcerers wo get amna shield up durig my initial onsluaght and then root me and laugh when pumice stone does not take as they blast away my initial almost victory.  All in all I m somewhat satisfied with t8 guardian in pvp atm (wish tuants worked more reliable especially hold the line - I still see it resisted alot although on beta my oppenets said they hated that spell - I cringe when the one thing I am designed to do gets multiple resists) but again - all in all solo guardians are not the walking token machines they were in t7 unless of course you get rolled by a group - but what did you expect running around solo anyway?</p><p>As a necro - I got an early elation using some of berties god skills but this week but that gets costly fast.  I noticed my CHARM UNDEAD, which was working VERY reliably last week, seems to have been ninja nerfed.  It was breaking (Master1 mind you with 2-3 +subjugation items on) no shiitee at least every 10secs to 3 minutes - making it completely un reliable and useless - YAY another useless necro spell for PVP.  CHARM undead is one of the few remaining pleasure as a necromance in this game and that does not seem to be working now - and I was not even attempting the big guys at ^^^ just the lil ones for soe added pve/pvp dps.   </p>

[deepruntramp]

Shadowknights may outpace the Brawlers late-game, but assuming the Shadowknight plays "properly" -- ie, doesn't sit in immunity for 10 minutes after using Harm Touch -- I think Brawlers would be better solo PvPers for the majority of the game. Couple reasons behind my thinking: -Brawlers have more stuns and controls, easier to stop runners. -Brawlers have more avoidance than SKs (for the majority of the game). The combination of Avoidance being at the core of EQ2 defensive combat and the joke that is Plate tips the scale a little more toward Brawler. -I believe Brawlers -- Monks especially -- are better against Druids until SKs really get their feet under them and are able to output high enough spike damage to overcome the Druids' massive power pools and healing. Again, I'd rather be an SK at 80, but my list was more about 10-80, not just 80.

[Diern]

<p>I think you are probably correct about them being better classes low end. I am a t7 SK so its been along time since I experienced the lower end pvp game and we get alot of very powerful pvp abilities 50+. Before this monks are probably better though.</p><p>Much has been said about Sk's HT and how poor sk's use it in pvp. The only time I use Harmtouch in PVP is as a stopping tool or if I am outnumbered and I want to take at least one out before I fall. Sk's who rely on harmtouch for pvp usually end up rolling other classes sometime shortly after t4 where it loses much of its power.</p>

[Eluzay]

while I dont believe that sk rules any tier, to not be on any makes me giggle, a well played sk is pretty powerfull (and I usually beat 3 of the classes you mention in both teir 7 and <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.glad to be off the radar though, there are so many HT hams that it is like camoflage for the sk's that know their class.

[Cotey]

Very nice and very accurate list!I would put SKs even a bit higher, for the ability to DPS very fast and great survivability, it is also easy to play - just let all the dps go out and then HT, nothing special, if ganked - evacand on the other hand I would place Pally down even under mystic, defiler and troub - no single way of stopping runner (not counting special on rain caller, it doesn't proc most of the time), no way to avoid ganking (except some racial abilities, but thats too little to work well;really only best as pvm group tank imoI can't really understand how two classes which are supposed to be little silimar can be so different <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> sk one of best pvpers pally one of worst

[Eluzay]

<cite>Cotouch@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Very nice and very accurate list!I would put SKs even a bit higher, for the ability to DPS very fast and great survivability, it is also easy to play - just let all the dps go out and then HT, nothing special, if ganked - evacand on the other hand I would place Pally down even under mystic, defiler and troub - no single way of stopping runner (not counting special on rain caller, it doesn't proc most of the time), no way to avoid ganking (except some racial abilities, but thats too little to work well;really only best as pvm group tank imoI can't really understand how two classes which are supposed to be little silimar can be so different <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> sk one of best pvpers pally one of worst</blockquote>you are one of the sk's i was talking about (or you dont play one and dont have a clue)

[Cotey]

<cite>Ssslick@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cotouch@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Very nice and very accurate list!I would put SKs even a bit higher, for the ability to DPS very fast and great survivability, it is also easy to play - just let all the dps go out and then HT, nothing special, if ganked - evacand on the other hand I would place Pally down even under mystic, defiler and troub - no single way of stopping runner (not counting special on rain caller, it doesn't proc most of the time), no way to avoid ganking (except some racial abilities, but thats too little to work well;really only best as pvm group tank imoI can't really understand how two classes which are supposed to be little silimar can be so different <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /> sk one of best pvpers pally one of worst</blockquote>you are one of the sk's i was talking about (or you dont play one and dont have a clue)</blockquote>dunno, but I had much better pvp ratio than you (according to your sig) even though I was soloing most of the time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />SK is just much easier to play than pally tbh, most fights are straitforward and need for reacting on situation is not so critical as with pally

[Turtle]

<p>Wanted to chime in here really quick on Rangers behalf...</p><p>Rangers have good damage output as long as they get a jump had have range there is no question about that.  If the opponents closes the distance and crosses into melee territory Rangers damage is horrible and trying to get back to range damage is extremely difficult.  Also, I find Bruisers to be extremely hard to fight no matter if we get the range and jump on them, because of their overall defense...ie parries, dodge, etc...its hard to land a arrow.  Now I'm speaking as a level 32 Ranger, because I havn't played my 42 Ranger in a very long time (took about 8 months off around the time AAs came out).  </p>

[Raidyen]

<p>Agree with Turtle, Rangers should no longer be in the top 5 of that list.  Rangers have gotten a bad rap because few people know how to engage them properly, or were so under geared a Ranger would get through all their hitpoints before they could get a spell off.  Decently geared, and knowing how to fight them, a Ranger stands little to no chance against most classes 1vs1 in T8.</p><p>Wizards/warlocks should be at the top of that list right with Swashy/Brig.  (which again is up for debate, Brig is far better 1vs1 then a swash, however a swash is better in a group, or fighting 2 or 3 lower levels.)  But the wizard/warlock do not belong in the muddled middle.  The rest of the list is prolly pretty accurate.</p>

[Snowlywhite]

brig far better then swash... ranger crap...[Removed for Content], what game are you playing?

[Dreamo]

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>brig far better then swash... ranger crap...[Removed for Content], what game are you playing?</blockquote>Well at your tier it's probably true, because most of the time you are ganking some very poorly equiped noobs and it made you believe that you are god. But we are talking about end game here. At T8 in brig vs swash fights a lot depends on the gear really. And I would even say that it narrows down to who has a better weapon.

[Tae]

<cite>Wolby@Nagafen wrote:</cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>Well at your tier it's probably true, because most of the time you are ganking some very poorly equiped noobs and it made you believe that you are god. But we are talking about end game here. At T8 in brig vs swash fights a lot depends on the gear really. And I would even say that it narrows down to who has a better weapon. </blockquote>Swashbucklers are better than brigands. Especially at T8. There's two reasons for this. Firstly because swashbucklers have two knockbacks - one from their stealth attack and one from their AoE. That isn't as important as the second reason though. Reach allows them to kite you. And with the way kunark is constructed with lots of rolling hills, it can often be utterly impossible to hit them because you will keep getting the "cannot see target" message since a tiny bump in the floor is obscuring the circle at their feet, and said circle is what you're actually attacking. I don't think they're as strong as they were before inspiration and enguard were nerfed, but they are still extremely powerful. Also with Shadowknights sure they can be good in 1v1 PvP when Divine Aura and Death Touch are up and usable. Otherwise they're dead. And since their reactive taunt doesn't work in PvP, they can't keep aggro off their group even a third as well as a warrior can. When I'm playing my Berserker the enemy are attacking me through the entire fight, and when I'm fighting Guardians and Berserkers I'm attacking them for nearly all of the fight. When I'm with an SK, or when I'm fighting one, it's just not even in the same dimension.

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wolby@Nagafen wrote:</cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>Well at your tier it's probably true, because most of the time you are ganking some very poorly equiped noobs and it made you believe that you are god. But we are talking about end game here. At T8 in brig vs swash fights a lot depends on the gear really. And I would even say that it narrows down to who has a better weapon. </blockquote>Swashbucklers are better than brigands. Especially at T8. There's two reasons for this. Firstly because swashbucklers have two knockbacks - one from their stealth attack and one from their AoE. That isn't as important as the second reason though. Reach allows them to kite you. And with the way kunark is constructed with lots of rolling hills, it can often be utterly impossible to hit them because you will keep getting the "cannot see target" message since a tiny bump in the floor is obscuring the circle at their feet, and said circle is what you're actually attacking. I don't think they're as strong as they were before inspiration and enguard were nerfed, but they are still extremely powerful. Also with Shadowknights sure they can be good in 1v1 PvP when Divine Aura and Death Touch are up and usable. Otherwise they're dead. And since their reactive taunt doesn't work in PvP, they can't keep aggro off their group even a third as well as a warrior can. When I'm playing my Berserker the enemy are attacking me through the entire fight, and when I'm fighting Guardians and Berserkers I'm attacking them for nearly all of the fight. When I'm with an SK, or when I'm fighting one, it's just not even in the same dimension.</blockquote>This is a load of crap with SK's. I have recently betrayed my pally into an SK to level, In PvP they are so utterly overpowered its not funny. I have killed monks 4 levels higher than me w/o PT and nearly killed swashbucklers 3 levels higher than me. SK is super easy to use and have so many tools that make them a the top of the list where they belong. IMO Brigand is >>> Swash. Brigand devitalize and dispatch debuff stupid amounts of mit again so they are tearing through people like butter. At least from what I've seen.

[Snowlywhite]

I play brig, not swash, and in lower tiers I say brig > swash.However, it's not about what tier I play at, it's about taking a pen and paper and read what each class can do - more controled knockbacks(not random procs.), inspiration, engarde, reach vs a buncha abilities that can be countered with 1 potion(ok, long timer on the potion, but it's not like there are waves of pvp out there...). And for the record, I was talking strictly from the pov of brig. vs swash fight; not brig or swash vs others.And about rangers... quite frankly if, with a sorc. with track and 50% more hp(ok, no ms) plus ability to do good dmg on the run you can't dominate in pvp... I don't know with what you could.

[tass]

lower tiers the brig rules with the stuns and debuffs, and all that other crap mixed into the spells. To much to list just look em up urself. The swash in higher tiers with sure crazy attack speed. Even brought down a notch its like looking into the eyes of the devil head on while they mash every single button they have lol. You only defense is to run like a bat outa hell.Anyway the 2 of them aside id say a ranger is the next best. Their such a pain in the [Removed for Content] to find and catch. Assasins after thet if they can get close and in position. After that its sort of anyones guess. Id say the sorcerers have the floor on par with pretty much anyone with manashield if used right, but their are so many factors that could go wrong like they could run or keep the wiz mezzed/stunned it all depends so I say they're on par with the 2 scout classes because it all depends on what happens in the time period manasheild is up.After that id say the the druids, the brawlers/ pet classes and then the tanks. The pet classes would probably be ranked the next highest after the scouts, maybe even on par with the predators but they just never have enough time to dmg before they're wacked in seconds. Even with stone skin those freebee's are going in seconds with each hit.

[Riggly]

<span class="postbody"><p>T2:1. Warden-Druid2. Monk-Hyllus and his uberness got this vote from back in the day.3. Troubador- Cus other seem to think so and his snares are evil.4. Ranger- Op easy mode class as always.5. Templar- Group this with and class with 21+AA and god help you. Conjy Temp combo wipes full groups easy.</p><p>T3:1. Swashbuckler AA lines2. Brigand-Cus they hurt casters3. Fury4. Warden5. Bruiser/Monk Hyllus again and the AA lines vs casters.</p><p>T4:1. Fury2. Warden3. Inquisitor4. Swashbuckler5. Brigand</p><p>T5:1. Ranger2. Brigand3. Templar- Watch Talithia Tightpants Google in and watch my level 46 templar friend fight a 63 SK Dystroyer.4. Warlock- AA lines Mana shield uber with 4k power in this tier. 5. Illusionist- Fight with or against one and you know what I mean.</p><p>T6:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Coercer5. Inquisitor</p><p>T7:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Assassin5. Coercer</p><p>T8: Any Scout owns all other classes and Warlocks can crit upheaval and kill entire raids....1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Warlock5. Coercer</p></span>

[Turtle]

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And about rangers... quite frankly if, with a sorc. with track and 50% more hp(ok, no ms) <b>plus ability to do good dmg on the run</b> you can't dominate in pvp... I don't know with what you could.</blockquote>You do know we only have one ranged CA we can use while on the run right?

[saygadude]

Can anyone post a list of the top 12 classes for solo pvp in T8? I know there is some top 5 lists but I would like to know the next 8 or so.<span class="postbody"><span class="postbody">Will Swashbuckler, Brigand and Ranger</span></span> most likely stay near the top for awhile because the developers intended for these classes to be powerful in pvp or will these classes get nerfed eventually?

[Raidyen]

<cite>saygadude wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can anyone post a list of the top 12 classes for solo pvp in T8? I know there is some top 5 lists but I would like to know the next 8 or so.<span class="postbody"><span class="postbody">Will Swashbuckler, Brigand and Ranger</span></span> most likely stay near the top for awhile because the developers intended for these classes to be powerful in pvp or will these classes get nerfed eventually?</blockquote><p>LoL they have been nerfed, many times, and will most likely continue getting nerfed because in order for these classes to win a fight, it has to be over within the first 8 or 10 seconds at most, and most poeple hate getting killed that fast.  (I don't understand why people keep leaving Assasin out of this list, they are completely on par with these 3 classes.)</p><p>If you want to avoid nerfs, draw up a healer or a caster.  Stay far, far away from any scout class.  They have drawn the ire of the community, and will continue to get pummled by nerfs until they are easy targets for everyone including necro's.</p>

[MaCloud1032]

It depends on what kind of 1on1.  If its a duel then healers are very good at this as is a SK.  A SK in a duel is almost a sure win.  Open pvp 1v1 is a diffretn story.  Ushaly this means someone got the jump on the other in that it will most likly be a prediter/rouge who wins

[Turtle]

<cite>Deekin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>saygadude wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can anyone post a list of the top 12 classes for solo pvp in T8? I know there is some top 5 lists but I would like to know the next 8 or so.<span class="postbody"><span class="postbody">Will Swashbuckler, Brigand and Ranger</span></span> most likely stay near the top for awhile because the developers intended for these classes to be powerful in pvp or will these classes get nerfed eventually?</blockquote><p>LoL they have been nerfed, many times, and will most likely continue getting nerfed because in order for these classes to win a fight, it has to be over within the first 8 or 10 seconds at most, and most poeple hate getting killed that fast.  (I don't understand why people keep leaving Assasin out of this list, they are completely on par with these 3 classes.)</p><p>If you want to avoid nerfs, draw up a healer or a caster.  Stay far, far away from any scout class.  They have drawn the ire of the community, and will continue to get pummled by nerfs until they are easy targets for everyone including necro's.</p></blockquote>I agree with this post...there is another post on here talking about reducing the effectiveness or taking away track from the scout classes (I haven't read it in length because its like 18+ pages long).  Just because scouts can find you dosn't mean we win.  Everyone on these servers are here to pvp, right?  So why is everyone mad that we bring the fights to them instead of them spending the time to try and find a fight?  There is ways to combat stealth...I use it vs. my scout brethren.

[Snowlywhite]

<cite>Turtle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And about rangers... quite frankly if, with a sorc. with track and 50% more hp(ok, no ms) <b>plus ability to do good dmg on the run</b> you can't dominate in pvp... I don't know with what you could.</blockquote>You do know we only have one ranged CA we can use while on the run right?</blockquote>you do realize that with the current shrinks ingame you can hide anywhere and noone without track will ever see you even with all the totems in the world... Combine that with track to find them, with abit of patience to have them engage a mob and get at 60-70%, with the brains that most of the rangers don't seem to have(aka - position behind him to negate extra avoidance) and the guy is dead in the 1st salvo.and you do realize that good dmg on the run means autoattack + poison proc.

[Turtle]

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>you do realize that with the current shrinks ingame you can hide anywhere and noone without track will ever see you even with all the totems in the world... Combine that with track to find them, with abit of patience to have them engage a mob and get at 60-70%, with the brains that most of the rangers don't seem to have(aka - position behind him to negate extra avoidance) and the guy is dead in the 1st salvo.and you do realize that good dmg on the run means autoattack + poison proc.</blockquote><p>I personally don't use shrinks because it is f'ed up and it seems cheap do to the current rendering problems that exist in the game (for my opponents that is)...this is my choice.  Don't get me wrong I know there are others that may lack some respect out there, but shrink seems to be the problem (since it can't be combated) not the stealth...in that regard.  Anyone, could be waiting in hiding until an opportune time, no?  Now don't get me wrong track can help find players, to allow scouts to sit and wait, but I have seen non-scout classes hide behind trees or just around the corner and then jump there targets unexpectedly as well.</p><p>As for the decent damage on the run, that is true auto+poison+bow proc (more then likely we have this too), but while we are trying to keep distance from targets so we can do our good damage, our targets are usually approaching us much faster then we can keep distance because we have already initiated combat.  Once our opponent comes into close quarters our bows are useless and we have to find ways to gain distance, which is limited and has short timers.  Remember I'm going of the experiences of my level 32 Ranger...I haven't played my 42 ranger since just after AA was introduced and of course things change from tier to tier.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Turtle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And about rangers... quite frankly if, with a sorc. with track and 50% more hp(ok, no ms) <b>plus ability to do good dmg on the run</b> you can't dominate in pvp... I don't know with what you could.</blockquote>You do know we only have one ranged CA we can use while on the run right?</blockquote>Clearly you either don't know your own class or your trying to mislead people about your "ranged" attacks.  On my ranger, I can drop ALL of my ranged attacks at 5m - use cheap shot, take a step backwards (or jump backwards) and unload holy hell.  Its not that hard.  I can hurt you up close as much as I can at range - its really not that hard.  Also, if you want to melee, get behind your target - you get a great big back stab to stealth to that you can follow immediately with a big stealthed melee hit BEFORE your stealth gets broken.  Also, since we have a root and multiple snare options, most targets cannot even get in melee range f us and we can run back wards and kite them with auto attk bow attks, with a long delay bow those are big hits.  Since casters cannot cast on the run they are forced to stop and attack - DEAGGRO them and them hit them with a refreshed range ability.  DEAD clothy - TANKS just keep coming becuase they can only cure 1 snare at a time, if they are even smart enough to have pots up on their HB, so they remain snared, occassionally rooted, and they die too.  I am not even one of the best rangers, so if I can figure this out, other rangers prob have even better strategies.

[Snowlywhite]

mate, I see things this way:- 2 dps types: mages and scouts. Both have 1 way or another of camouflage. Not that this doesn't go to everyone after 30 with totems, nor that I'd give too much coppers on stealth abilities.Mages can unload from range a ton of burst, but... who cares, without track you just have to sit somewhere and pray that something will come to you... Even worse, if you keep camping the same hopefully more "aglomerated" spots, everyone and their mothers who's in that tier will expect you to be there.Scouts have track and stealth, but that's negated by either melee range or lack of burst dps(bards case). I normally don't even bother running to someone stealthed simply because... if he bothers abit(and has totems up... which everyone should; if he doesn't, he's prolly an easy kill anyway), the only thing I'll achive is run slower; he'll know I'm there allright...Ok, even stealth+range might not have been a dreadful combo since stealth is worth jack, bar pve. But stealth+shrink++range+some bushel/tree/whatever is definitelly the best thing you can dream of.to sum it up:- a non tracking char. can do the same, but without track, he'll come home with prolly 20% of the kills of a track char.- a bard can do the same, but without a good burst dps he might win or might not;- a melee tracker can do the same, but if you rotate abit you'll prolly see him coming(even if obviously later);- a ranged high burst track ftw.I say that the new 4 years /claim more then compensates for the lose of focused aim...And about being cheap to shrink or not... shrug, if I don't, I really don't expect the guy next door not to use it too. It's in the game, everyone does whatever they want... However, obviously, I'd expect devs. to think abit more, but... who wouldn't?And about running: you open, you snare. 1 has either the option to cure snare which puts them on the same running speed as you(since he'll be in combat) or run at lower speed then you(due to snare) and hope the snare will break due to dmg. Don't get me wrong - till this game, who didn't have a ranger type on the supposedly bad faction, I've always played one in each mmo(call me [Removed for Content], but I find it lacking style to actually get damaged too - I prefer killing ppl. while being intact in the end). I know things look 10 times better on paper then in reality and that kiting is easier to be typed then actually done, but... even here you have an advantage. If the snare for caster types has 15% of breaking on dmg(on the theory that they do few, but big nukes) and the scouts have 5% of breaking on dmg(on the theory of doing many small attacks), you keep the scout type of snaring while doing mage type of dmg(very long delay bows with quite a punch).Anyway, I still see rangers are #2 after swash in a pure 1vs1 chance <b>against classes that actually solo</b> and in open pvp environment(aka - getting the jump; without jump, scouts aren't worth too much anyway).

[Krakelkr]

<cite>Obin@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Turtle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>And about rangers... quite frankly if, with a sorc. with track and 50% more hp(ok, no ms) <b>plus ability to do good dmg on the run</b> you can't dominate in pvp... I don't know with what you could.</blockquote>You do know we only have one ranged CA we can use while on the run right?</blockquote>Clearly you either don't know your own class or your trying to mislead people about your "ranged" attacks.  On my ranger, I can drop ALL of my ranged attacks at 5m - use cheap shot, take a step backwards (or jump backwards) and unload holy hell.  Its not that hard.  I can hurt you up close as much as I can at range - its really not that hard.  Also, if you want to melee, get behind your target - you get a great big back stab to stealth to that you can follow immediately with a big stealthed melee hit BEFORE your stealth gets broken.  Also, since we have a root and multiple snare options, most targets cannot even get in melee range f us and we can run back wards and kite them with auto attk bow attks, with a long delay bow those are big hits.  Since casters cannot cast on the run they are forced to stop and attack - DEAGGRO them and them hit them with a refreshed range ability.  DEAD clothy - TANKS just keep coming becuase they can only cure 1 snare at a time, if they are even smart enough to have pots up on their HB, so they remain snared, occassionally rooted, and they die too.  I am not even one of the best rangers, so if I can figure this out, other rangers prob have even better strategies.</blockquote><p>Uhum. Ok, you're a twink owning newbies?</p><p>You realize some people actually play rangers in this game? Or that some players pvp for that matter?</p><p>That's was as embarrassing as a ranger whine gets imo.</p>

[Eluzay]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wolby@Nagafen wrote:</cite><cite></cite> <blockquote>Well at your tier it's probably true, because most of the time you are ganking some very poorly equiped noobs and it made you believe that you are god. But we are talking about end game here. At T8 in brig vs swash fights a lot depends on the gear really. And I would even say that it narrows down to who has a better weapon. </blockquote>Swashbucklers are better than brigands. Especially at T8. There's two reasons for this. Firstly because swashbucklers have two knockbacks - one from their stealth attack and one from their AoE. That isn't as important as the second reason though. Reach allows them to kite you. And with the way kunark is constructed with lots of rolling hills, it can often be utterly impossible to hit them because you will keep getting the "cannot see target" message since a tiny bump in the floor is obscuring the circle at their feet, and said circle is what you're actually attacking. I don't think they're as strong as they were before inspiration and enguard were nerfed, but they are still extremely powerful. Also with Shadowknights sure they can be good in 1v1 PvP when Divine Aura and Death Touch are up and usable. Otherwise they're dead. And since their reactive taunt doesn't work in PvP, they can't keep aggro off their group even a third as well as a warrior can. When I'm playing my Berserker the enemy are attacking me through the entire fight, and when I'm fighting Guardians and Berserkers I'm attacking them for nearly all of the fight. When I'm with an SK, or when I'm fighting one, it's just not even in the same dimension.</blockquote>This is a load of crap with SK's. I have recently betrayed my pally into an SK to level, In PvP they are so utterly overpowered its not funny. I have killed monks 4 levels higher than me w/o PT and nearly killed swashbucklers 3 levels higher than me. SK is super easy to use and have so many tools that make them a the top of the list where they belong. IMO Brigand is >>> Swash. Brigand devitalize and dispatch debuff stupid amounts of mit again so they are tearing through people like butter. At least from what I've seen.</blockquote>Sk's are good, there is no doubt, classes that hate sk's are druids and pally's first and formost, most rangers will take a dirt nap to a good sk as well. swashies and monks are the worst for an sk due to swashies kiting ability and monk's obnoxious stifles.  All in all the SK does very well for himself, and given track would be just as lethal as swashies and monks.  The two biggest downsides to sk are a serious lack of snare/root (our only snare takes so long to cast that you can barely make up the distance lost from casting before it wears off) and lack of track (when a good first strike is put on you it is sometimes difficult to recover)I love my sk, but then again i hate easy mode games.

[mtwideen]

Sk's also own dirges.... of course who doesn't.... but anyways, I know when I fight an SK, if I fight him in melee range, I have no chance, they just owns me, but if I kite them, they still do more ranged damage than me, and they kill me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. And I have tried to fight many SKs, usually getting the jump, trying both strategies in many ways, never works out for me, I think it is the only freep class that I have NEVER killed, although there are a lot of classes that I have killed like, once, and they have killed me, many more <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. But ya, I hate Sks lol

[Ichigoo]

Thats cause the dirge is a group class. and while i do agree we suck solo in a grp of melee's we do have some redeeming qualities. one of the is Chimes of blades and COB which is paired with a brusier or berserker = win cause thats 12-17 sec of pure interrupts depending on how much aa is in there. it'll definetly kill a few healers and casters. Solo yea we can't do squat to anyone. i've fought all the other classes on my t8 dirge and most of the time all my debuffs are on them and they just shrug it off.

[moonchild1]

A key class getting left behind?  Mystic.  A properly outfitted/speced Mystic can own in both solo and group.  Need a counter to those Warlock encounter whammys?  The Mystic's group wards and poison buffs.  My Mystic has only lost 5 out of countless 1 v 1s.

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>moonchild111 wrote:</cite><blockquote>A key class getting left behind?  Mystic.  A properly outfitted/speced Mystic can own in both solo and group.  Need a counter to those Warlock encounter whammys?  The Mystic's group wards and poison buffs.  My Mystic has only lost 5 out of countless 1 v 1s.</blockquote>I don't mean to be rude or anything, but do you play a Mystic at high tiers? Currently, Shamans are the BOTTOM healers for PvP. They can do 1 on 1's ok, but groups pretty much useless.

[Swifthand]

<cite>Vexus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I actually enjoy these threads and have participated in several of them since Nagafen launched.  I don't have the time for a detailed description right now, but to the OP, it would be helpful if you specify exactly what you want, as in what Tier or level.  Are we talking about at level 80?  I'd say that the game is changing and we don't have enough info on it yet to give more than a general ranking at 80, as only a handful of people are there and that's not enough to really test yet.  Did you want level 70, or T3, or T2 ... because I find that every class ranking changes tier by tier.  For instance look at two very similar Druid classes--the Warden and the Fury.  A Warden is dominant in T2, but a Fury is poor.  By T3, the Fury is at least as good as the Warden (at level 23 or higher) because so much of his dps depends upon Strike of Thunder and Energy Vortex, and in T3, he should have both.  But in T6 and T7, the Warden again passes the Fury both in 1v1's and groups.  </p><p>For soloing, the only classes to consider are classes witih Tracking, that means 1 through 6 will be the Scouts in every tier.  In groups there's more room for every class to shine, but if you're asking for a combo of the two, here's some quick thoughts.  It's not a definitive list and definitely debatable, but just off the top of my head:</p><p>T2:1. Warden2. Dirge3. Troubador4. Ranger5. Warlock</p><p>T3:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Fury4. Warden5. Bruiser/Monk</p><p>T4:1. Fury2. Warden3. Inquisitor4. Swashbuckler5. Brigand</p><p>T5:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Coercer5. Illusionist</p><p>T6:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Coercer5. Inquisitor</p><p>T7:1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Assassin5. Coercer</p><p>T8: ... we'll see, but here's a preliminary guess1. Swashbuckler2. Brigand3. Ranger4. Warlock5. Coercer</p></blockquote><p>I'm curious,,,, are these rankings based on EZ MODE classes that require absolutely no skill to play? I know Furys have 2 spells they can cast that can kill people easily in t3 and t4 which is why most people have them ranked as the best T4 class simply because of two attacks,of course along with snare, root, dot's etc.</p><p>Now, I have a question. Lets just say you are very coordinated, smart, and know your class inside and out, BUT, you chose to play a class many would consider as being average or below average based on their limited experience and the noob players they happened to kill easily. Lets just say you chose to play a Paladin, and this person is owning people left and right, scouts "who dont run" druids, etc. In time, would this class eventually be ranked in the top 5 in your eyes just because you happen to lose against a very good pvper on a regular basis?</p><p>Honestly, I believe any class could be good in pvp If the person beind the keyboard is experienced and knows how to handle himself/herself in any given situation. I do believe that these classes listed above as the "best" classes are sorely based on a few powerful attacks and abilities they happen to recieve to gain a little advantage in pvp. This doesn't mean they are the "best" classes.</p>

[Roald]

<p>Enough of the 'this class is good when well geared' or 'this class can own if correctly' specced. That can be said for pretty much ANY class</p><p>Simple fact is, the easiest classes to play and win with, in no particular order are:</p><p>Swashbuckler</p><p>Ranger</p><p>Brigand</p><p>Fury</p><p>Warden</p>

[therodge]

<p>read through this thread and am confuzed in one respect but first some background </p><p>ran a paladin up pve i think hes 75ish, not the point not a pve thread </p><p>ran a paladin up to 60ish on venekor got board do to lack of pvp and deleted him BUT</p><p> were is the wizard/warlock idea in higher teirs comming from, if its true im happy clothies needed some love but i just dont see it in my mid to late 50s they barly were even a fight. i tested this against a 78 warlock pve in a duel. (assuming if they are not exsacally the same as far as damage ratios go they are probobly imbalanced on pve which is what id expect.) i sat their not attacking and let him nuke me, all i did was ward, he ran out of mana when i hit about 50% hp, if i may ask is this vastly diffrent on pvp if so may be a big enough push to come back shows balance for once, which is something that was lacking. think the main reason venekor was so empty was nothing was fair even 1v1 i knew going into a battle if i was going to win or loose, and with rare exception i was always right. (that and the complete and utter gankage anything below teir 4).</p>