Track In PvP [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 12:31 AM

Here's an interesting idea, dunno whether its been suggested before or not, but no harm in speaking out.Remove track of player characters from PvP/Now heres the thing, in the modern day culture of token farming, errant barbarian swashies going by the name of kandy vegas'stripper use the track to seek out their targets to farm their tokens, using a little window instead of the characters abilities which sometimes feel neglected.I've seen monks, conjurors and pallies PvP without needing a track, but scouts have this unfair advantage over the 16 other classes, as they can stealth and use the track window to find quick targets, and in groups this can be used to find targets for the grps. - easy mode, seriously, easy mode.Now imagine a scout without track, first thing i can imagine is the whining flame posts this idea would get, second thing i can imagine is that the few good scout players out there resorting to other methods provided within the game.First Method is very simple. Sound. Turn up the environment sounds, and turn off the music completely. You can here footsteps, sound of a buff, and combat.Second methed of tracking someone is a very underused ability I find, the racial vision. Infravision to see body heat, ultravision to see in the dark, sonic vision to see movement, and the erudite ability of seeing whether a character is a caster, a priest, or niether. And of course you;d use totems to stealthed or invised players.Next method is to examine the environment. Missing mobs, dead bodies, chests littered all over the place, mobs returning back to their default position after chasing someone, and can you see a pet running around? Hmm, someones been here.Now after all this, the successful and skillful player would have tracked and stalked a victim until they were at their most vulnable. The unskillful player would have failed to notice the 22 stone shadowknight ogre standing behind him giggling like a schoolgirl.Now of course the noob scouts will all cry "This is a rubbish idea, why not take away our dps while you're at it, character won't be worth playing ffs" and all the rest, but then take away track, the 20 yr old scout will be on a more lvl playing field as say a 12 yr old kid playing a necromancer. The necromancer is going to get ganked, but not as often and has a chance of hiding as the scout has to rely on the environment to tell him where the kid is. And the kid will enjoy the game a bt more as the big grps will not roll over him as often.Just a thought.You can pick holes in that all you want, but those that do probably don't want to lose easy mode from their lives, not just scouts but their grp members grped with that scout for pvp. But as a scout myself who's had kills using 'easy mode' I can see the problem of people getting upset as they keep getting rolled over in a pvp situation, and find it easier to hide using the game environment.

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 02:17 AM

I say No.As a scout.. I use tracking as a defensive tool which I do believe upsets more players than it does those who dislike being hunted down by the use of it.While I'm harvesting on my Brigand.. I can see the group of 4 yellows zone in on my tracking and I have the opportunity to high tail it out of their tracking range. On the other hand, if I see a solo yellow off in the distance.. a quick glance at my tracking tips me off to the other 10 grays they have in tow who he/she is playing bait for and I know to avoid that trap as well.There are two sides to every story.. and both sides need to be addressed before requesting a nerf. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Radigazt

11-27-2007, 02:27 AM

OK, one of my toons is a Brig, so maybe I'm biased. But, I wouldn't mind getting rid of Tracking PC's on the PvP servers, but I think you'd need to give the Scouts something back. Honestly, non-Fighters have Taunts (e.g. my Brigand, Swashbuckers, pet classes, etc.) but Taunting and Hit Points are the class defining aspects of the Fighter classes. Non-Priest classes have healing (e.g. Necros, Monks, Bruisers, Shadowknights, Wizard/Warlock wards, etc.), but Healing is the class defining ability of Priests. Damage is the class defining ability of Mages, although other classes (e.g. scouts) have that too. But, there's no doubt that Tracking is the class defining ability of a scout. So, if you take away a scout's tracking ability, you really need to give them something back in it's place. Unfortunately, in it's current state, Tracking is really more like Radar. It doesn't show paths that people have taken, instead it shows where people are and whether they are hostile or friendly before they even get within eyesight. It is simply too complex for the server to remember every player's path in memory for a while on the off chance a scout wants to track it. I also find it odd that you can get players' names off of Tracking, because really it shouldn't con your faction or the other faction, but rather "Barbarian in Plate" or "Fae in Cloth" ... but changing it would require a lot of coding and probably a lot of server resources to get right. I've seen it as a necessary evil. One alternative would be to allow Woodworkers to make Tracking Totems, then everyone could track and the benefit wouldn't be unique to scouts, but IMHO, that would just make avoiding PvP even easier. But removing Tracking all together does sound appealing ... the only problem is what do you give to scouts in it's place, because really, you'd be nerfing their strongest PvP ability and the ability that is the core of the whole concept of "scouting."

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 02:41 AM

<cite>Vexus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>But removing Tracking all together does sound appealing ... the only problem is what do you give to scouts in it's place, because really, you'd be nerfing their strongest PvP ability and the ability that is the core of the whole concept of "scouting." </blockquote>I'm just going to jump in real quick and snuff the next inevitable response "but they already have Stealth!!". <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />There are very few players on a PvP server that can't see stealth with the exception of the T1 players who just created their first characters. Everyone else carries tokens and such and see stealth just fine making it basically useless for anything besides avoiding the AI mobs.So.. hit "Cancel" folks.. before you post "but they already have Stealth!"Carry on.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Magius789

11-27-2007, 03:14 AM

Why not just remove every class defining ability a scout has and turn them into second grade tanks. Why do people feel the need to cry cry cry for nerfs......oh yea because every time they do it actually happens. I can see it now next update all the scouts log in only to find that their track button has been replaced by a big middle finger and a picture of SOE violating all scouts on the server without proper protection. People really need to start drawing a line asking themselves, "ok am I really just upset because I'd like to do this and am upset that it happens to me" or "do I really think this is overpowered" because last time I checked track never killed anybody and in fact it's saved as many solo players from the gank group as it has doomed the non solo who doesn't have it.Besides didn't you actually post somewhere that you don't really enjoy PvP and would avoid it entirely if you had it your way? No offense because I like you Purity people...have grouped with a bunch that are good people...except on loot greedy pally who decided he needed the Torn Ligament Long Bow over a ranger who still had a lvl 58 bow....but other than him your good people.

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 03:27 AM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Besides didn't you actually post somewhere that you don't really enjoy PvP and would avoid it entirely if you had it your way?</blockquote>I also have a scout with track, and i use track in conjunction with evac a lot to avoid pvp... sooo... it must get annoying when you see volantiz on track then disappears cos i seen you on mine cos i don't want to pvp<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Oneira

11-27-2007, 03:55 AM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not just remove every class defining ability a scout has and turn them into second grade tanks. Why do people feel the need to cry cry cry for nerfs......oh yea because every time they do it actually happens. I can see it now next update all the scouts log in only to find that their track button has been replaced by a big middle finger and a picture of SOE violating all scouts on the server without proper protection. People really need to start drawing a line asking themselves, "ok am I really just upset because I'd like to do this and am upset that it happens to me" or "do I really think this is overpowered" because last time I checked track never killed anybody and in fact it's saved as many solo players from the gank group as it has doomed the non solo who doesn't have it.Besides didn't you actually post somewhere that you don't really enjoy PvP and would avoid it entirely if you had it your way? No offense because I like you Purity people...have grouped with a bunch that are good people...except on loot greedy pally who decided he needed the Torn Ligament Long Bow over a ranger who still had a lvl 58 bow....but other than him your good people.</blockquote>Part of the problem is that track, which is the best pvp ability in the game, is coupled with classes that can put out T1 damage or close to it. That combination is truly deadly. Add to that the fact that rogues can have high health and pretty good mit, and it's worse.When predators and rogues have a tremendous ability to find their targets, wait for favorable circumstances, then deal knockout damage, then you get complaints. My main on Venekor is a guardian and on Nagafen a mystic. And i'll tell you that when i'm out there solo, way more than 50% of my fights with scouts happen when i'm engaged with another mob. And yes, I do use vision totems pretty much all the time and my mystic sees stealth with bear form. There's a reason that happens. Meanwhile, my 38 troub running around tracking stealth and invis hardly ever dies when soloing in pvp. I simply avoid the fights I figure I can't win, which I can do pretty easily.Some sort of tracking or anti-tracking totems would be a nice idea.

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 04:20 AM

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Some sort of tracking or anti-tracking totems would be a nice idea.</blockquote>Meh.. I'd delete my Brigand and create something else since everyone would have the same ability anyways. It happened with Stealth.. everyone with a couple of gold can see stealth now.. so why not give them tracking and the ability not to be tracked.So... next nerf.. allow all professions the ability to use bows with critical hits with a totem? How about all classes should be able to snare with a totem? I'd love a totem that allows me to heal automatically with one click for 200 points and there after for every 2 seconds.See where I'm going with this?Why have "classes"? Just hand out tokens and it'll be a game of Dominos instead of talented people using their class based advantages against each other?/shakes headIt's already an item based game which is pretty much the bane of the gaming community. Lets not encourage it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />

KannaWhoopass

11-27-2007, 04:20 AM

What the game needs is the Anti ScoutMake Defiler and Mystic the Anti Scout Group buff .. as long as target within 30 m invisible to tracking. Call it Cover Tracks .. buff .. use AA line whatever.. It makes sense .. Shamen cant catch you .. root you .. kill you in a few shots .. nor snare you .. or evac .. or chetah .. no invis .. or stealth . They are a wild woodland class .. so covering your tracks fits from a lore stance. But that would be a great PvP buff .. And would help a class who really has no defence once found. It would also make scouts feel the pain of runing into a group of invis characters .. standing beside a shamen .. Trackingis a fine skill .. what makes it lame in PvP is it isnt tracking it;s radar .. and there is no counter for it which makes it a lopsided skill .

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 04:26 AM

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote>Trackingis a fine skill .. what makes it lame in PvP is it isnt tracking it;s radar .. and there is no counter for it which makes it a lopsided skill </blockquote>I have absolutely no problem with a single class.. a "nemesis" so to speak.. that can counter tracking. As a solo.. they can avoid the Tracker.. In a group.. a fine compliment to that group.Much more acceptable to "lets hand out tokens to everyone to counter tracking". Matell couldn't have introduced a better Nerf. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

XeroXs84

11-27-2007, 05:04 AM

Sony seems to know about tracking and that its a powerfull tool in pvp, otherwise there wouldnt be new gear with tracking avoidance on it.However, this gear doesnt seem to work right now (as stated in a few threads already), but if they make it work at some point this should reduce the power of tracking by a bit.

Tugatug

11-27-2007, 05:27 AM

*sigh* Most ppl that have a clue and are rolling w/o track, bind a key to target PC PVP then just run around hitting that key and it will target anyone within targeting range.

Oneira

11-27-2007, 05:50 AM

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote>What the game needs is the Anti ScoutMake Defiler and Mystic the Anti Scout Group buff .. as long as target within 30 m invisible to tracking. Call it Cover Tracks .. buff .. use AA line whatever.. It makes sense .. Shamen cant catch you .. root you .. kill you in a few shots .. nor snare you .. or evac .. or chetah .. no invis .. or stealth . They are a wild woodland class .. so covering your tracks fits from a lore stance. But that would be a great PvP buff .. And would help a class who really has no defence once found. It would also make scouts feel the pain of runing into a group of invis characters .. standing beside a shamen .. Trackingis a fine skill .. what makes it lame in PvP is it isnt tracking it;s radar .. and there is no counter for it which makes it a lopsided skill . </blockquote>I'd like that idea actually. Spyderbite's point about too many items compensating is well taken. Too many potions/totems and whatnot in my inventory already.

Oneira

11-27-2007, 05:52 AM

<cite>Tugatug wrote:</cite><blockquote>*sigh* Most ppl that have a clue and are rolling w/o track, bind a key to target PC PVP then just run around hitting that key and it will target anyone within targeting range.</blockquote>I don't believe that works on toons that are not in your sight range, like behind you. That works only if you can see them.

Gagla

11-27-2007, 06:06 AM

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tugatug wrote:</cite><blockquote>*sigh* Most ppl that have a clue and are rolling w/o track, bind a key to target PC PVP then just run around hitting that key and it will target anyone within targeting range.</blockquote>I don't believe that works on toons that are not in your sight range, like behind you. That works only if you can see them.</blockquote>Num Lock, Shift+Tab, Shift+Tab, Shift+Tab, swing camera around, Shift+Tab, Shift+Tab, swing camera, Repeat."Templar NEEDS Fame!"In all honesty, my favorite is when a solo scout comes to find me. Hooray Tracking(And people who don't know what they're doing)!

Zapo

11-27-2007, 07:52 AM

The OP has a point. First let me say I definately don't ask for a nerf of scout tracking. This is EQ2 and scouts here have tracking. I just think-... it is funny that the only real scouts in EQ2 are the non-scout classes. Because they have to actively scout, learn the environment, check mobs and learn where players go for quests/xping etc.-... things like hills, rivers, trees are more or less irrelevant because of tracking. There is no way to hide from scouts.I know it is difficult to compare games several years ago before EQ2 I played a stealth class in DAoC (rouge/infiltrator). They were very similiar to EQ2 scout classes because they also have stealth and high burst damage if they surprised their opponents. Actually I was in a guild mostly consisting of rouge classes. We were part of an alliance and when we did pvp raids it was our job to scout the enemy and inform our main force. That was real fun.But they have no tracking tool. Nevertheless they were one of the most powerful classes in pvp and actually fun to play. Some tracking tool was not necessary at all.I started several low level scouts on EQ2 PvP server but they never were really fun for me to play. It was just too easy to switch on track, check out enemy, kill enemy or search for another victim if the current one was too strong.Maybe the new tracking avoidance will work some day and have a real effect but I wouldn't bet on it.P.S. Btw. they also had no evac. Another tool which in my oppinion is completly unnecessary for pvp as well as pve (mobs are no challange anyway). Without evac as rouge you actually had to be careful not to be detected and hunted by the enemy.

ckl

11-27-2007, 09:19 AM

I'd trade track for stealth that was actually useful.So, if track was removed I'd fully expect totems, invis goggles all that other crap to be removed, as well as decreasing the range from which you can see a stealthed player.

MikeMatsumo

11-27-2007, 10:49 AM

Well,I see one brigand here crying about totems..if theres no totems like that i will ask soe to take off ALL crazy items/potions that you guys use to heal/cure yourself...cure and heals should not be only a healers/paladin ability?I just start one quest today in <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Jarsath_Wastes" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Jarsath Wastes</a> that will give a FREE LAY OF HANDS FOR EVERYBODY!i hope that is not a item that you can use in combat our people that have low dps, like paladins, will never kill one brigand that can heal himself for 3k.about track. i hate track, i hate how scouts is a bunch of [Removed for Content] and only attack when you have mobs on your head. but, they are scouts. they need have track or the name "scout" will not make sense.maybe just need make the range track not too big. when im running with one scout im always surprise how far they can track.

Pumancat

11-27-2007, 11:51 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say No.As a scout.. I use tracking as a defensive tool which I do believe upsets more players than it does those who dislike being hunted down by the use of it.While I'm harvesting on my Brigand.. I can see the group of 4 yellows zone in on my tracking and I have the opportunity to high tail it out of their tracking range. On the other hand, if I see a solo yellow off in the distance.. a quick glance at my tracking tips me off to the other 10 grays they have in tow who he/she is playing bait for and I know to avoid that trap as well.There are two sides to every story.. and both sides need to be addressed before requesting a nerf. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>whether used for offencive or defencive, the general consensus has always been that PC tracking in PVP is the main " unfair " advantage that scouts have had over all other classes.My bruiser nor my wizard, as you state, can see peeps zone in and I have the opportunity to avoid getting ganked. I have to rely on environment, just as OP suggests.As for it being a class defining ability, I agree, and it should stay, but for PVE purposes only. Checking to see if a named is up, or if you're close to one is a good thing, saves time. But as for PVP, only scout classes have the ability to pick and choose their PVP encounters and the rest are denied viable defence to that one special factor.You want to run?, then run when you get hit from nowhere like the rest of us, and have to take that first burst of dmg. to find out what's attacking you.Removing PC tracking would bring PVP a much more sense of balance than any nerfs SoE can think of IMO.I can't " pick and choose ", why should anybody else?Anarcheru - 73 bruiserNyarlath - 75 sage / 70 wizardVenekor server

knorah

11-27-2007, 12:14 PM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say No.As a scout.. I use tracking as a defensive tool which I do believe upsets more players than it does those who dislike being hunted down by the use of it.While I'm harvesting on my Brigand.. I can see the group of 4 yellows zone in on my tracking and I have the opportunity to high tail it out of their tracking range. On the other hand, if I see a solo yellow off in the distance.. a quick glance at my tracking tips me off to the other 10 grays they have in tow who he/she is playing bait for and I know to avoid that trap as well.There are two sides to every story.. and both sides need to be addressed before requesting a nerf. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>I can't " pick and choose ", why should anybody else?Anarcheru - 73 bruiserNyarlath - 75 sage / 70 wizardVenekor server</blockquote>Because YOU chose the classes you want to play. Don't cry nerf because another class has something you don't. I'm so tired of everyone [Removed for Content] about track. My dirge needs the track. I rolled a dirge: one for the run speed and two for the track...the [Removed for Content]' devs have given almost every other class a big [Removed for Content] run speed boost...and me being the dirge...I'm continually now running slower than everyone else in my group. Pisses me off...but I'm dealing w/ it. And now you want to take track away from my dirge? Fine, then let's take away FD from bruiser/monk! And take away all the pre-wards and pre-heals from healers...oh I could go on and on. /sigh....If you want track - roll a scout or a bard...but don't poo-poo another class ability because you don't have that ability. /nuff said.

Snowlywhite

11-27-2007, 12:17 PM

as long as their rag tag code makes rendering of pcs so slow, track better stay there... heck, even with track, I get attacked by the "invisible rings" out there... Tried without, it's unplayable... or ok, way below par from what I'd expect from a pvp game.and if you want removing a core ability of an archtype, then I'd say tanks should also stop taunting, because I find it unfair that I'm almost never able to hit their healer...

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 12:18 PM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>As for it being a class defining ability, I agree, and it should stay, but for PVE purposes only.</blockquote>Heh.. I've never used tracking for finding mobs with the exception of the occasional elusive quest kill I needed. If this were implemented then I'd have another free spot on my hot bar.Meh.. I'll just sit back row and watch at this point. If this sort of nerf goes through, at least I'll have something to laugh about when roots are removed from PvP too because people claim it isn't fair that they have to sit and watch somebody kill them from a distance.My 2 copper is... remove tracking from PvP? Fine.. improve stealth. Otherwise scouts are just thugs that cover their eyes yelling "You can't see me, you can't see me you can't see me!" as everyone T2 or higher sits and chuckles at him/her dancing around. XD

Bob21

11-27-2007, 12:34 PM

Here is an interesting twist on this argument. I think instead of taking track away from scouts, it should be given to everyone. For example, put a tinkering item in the game that can only be used when in the primary slot and can ONLY track PC targets or give it a very long reuse time if the tracking window is closed. Another example is to have a tradeskill item that can go in a ring or ear slot, with no stats, and can track only PC targets. Scouts get the innate ability to track and are the only ones that can track Pve, while all the other classes can provide the "defensive" benefit that most scouts say it is used for.

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 12:46 PM

<cite>Bob21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is an interesting twist on this argument. I think instead of taking track away from scouts, it should be given to everyone.</blockquote>No problem.. this sounds extremely fair. *cough*Now.. excuse me while I go customize a new hotbar for all those new Warlock & Fury spells I should get in return for such a trade off on my Brigand! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

seejester

11-27-2007, 12:56 PM

Thankfully with the new expansion track isn't such a game breaker anymore. Before, many times that gank squad wouldn't render until they were on top of me for the kill. Now, I can actually see them in the distance. In the jungle, on the other hand, it's definitely an advantage. As for everyone having track, some pvp-ers are using an outside program that tracks every player within their targeting range, 360 degrees. From what I hear, it's been tested to be nearly as long-ranged as track itself. Clearly, some folks have decided their non-scouts deserve track, too.For whatever whining that revelation will cause, know this - it's a passive program that uses information your game gets (and needs) so, apparently, there's no way for SOE to detect it or combat it, short of disabling your ability to click on distant toons (and lets face it, that's no fix, it would be a disaster).I don't use the program myself, as I'm too much of a cheapskate to fork out extra money for it. Besides, as I said before, with the rendering issue fixed I can play without it.

Armironhead

11-27-2007, 12:58 PM

You know what really bugs me is healing. Why do some characters get to heal themselves in combat and I cant? All i get are those lossy pots with the long recast times. Healing should only be allowed in pve. After all, as a scout class I can't kill those pesky healers, it is just so unfair. And whats up with those monks? Man are they tough in pvp. I hope something can be done to make them easier.

Bloodfa

11-27-2007, 01:03 PM

I'd like to add Rift to the "I want" list. You know, since we're making a Christmas wish-list.

Tae

11-27-2007, 01:05 PM

If you remove tracking, PvP on Venekor will end. The zones are big and there just aren't enough people to keep it going without some way of finding each other. Yes it makes scouts more powerful and yes because of this we're the only people who've managed to keep our titles in the rush to 80, but PvP without it would be all but impossible.

Bob21

11-27-2007, 01:06 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bob21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here is an interesting twist on this argument. I think instead of taking track away from scouts, it should be given to everyone.</blockquote>No problem.. this sounds extremely fair. *cough*Now.. excuse me while I go customize a new hotbar for all those new Warlock & Fury spells I should get in return for such a trade off on my Brigand! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>You already have the option of getting the warlock and fury spells. You can get mastercrafted armor that gives a chance to heal over time when hit, a shield that has a chance to cause damage when you are struck, and weapons that have a chance to "nuke" on a successful attack. Potions and totems can alter hp/mana regen, resists, and so forth. You use poisons that can dot, dd, and debuff.An item that would provide ONLY PC tracking with a long reuse time , say 5 minutes, would go along with everything else in the game.

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 01:11 PM

<cite>Bob21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>You already have the option of getting the warlock and fury spells. You can get mastercrafted armor that gives a chance to heal over time when hit, a shield that has a chance to cause damage when you are struck, and weapons that have a chance to "nuke" on a successful attack. Potions and totems can alter hp/mana regen, resists, and so forth. You use poisons that can dot, dd, and debuff.An item that would provide ONLY PC tracking with a long reuse time , say 5 minutes, would go along with everything else in the game.</blockquote>Now you've gone back to the original point that I made.. and enforced it. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Why have classes at all if any and all skills/spells can be bought at the broker and/or provisioner? Why not just do away with classes all together and everyone's specialties are dictated exclusively by what they wear or have sitting in their backpacks?I prefer the diversity of the classes.. every class has an advantage of one sort or another. Handing out these advantages to everyone like Uno cards is not a solution. Its only a method of turning EQ2 in to a micro-transaction based game. May as well enable Station Exchange on every server at that point.

Baaltar

11-27-2007, 01:22 PM

The problem I have with scouts is NOT track. Im fine with them knowing where I am at, they are scouts, that is their class defining ability. The problem I have, and I am talking as ANY class here upto t3, as I have played them all in PvP, is that a scout can basically alpha strike me to death, this includes stuns and stifles. I have no other recourse. I am sure it evens out in the later tiers and that is fine but upto t3 my request is simply this: While a scout has the track window up, and upto 30 seconds after they close it, all of thier combat arts do 50% less damage AND their reuse and cast timers are increased by 50%. They can either get the jump on me or try and take me out without being able to hunt me down. Do this and give them evac back during PvP and think you have a correct balance with track.

Pumancat

11-27-2007, 01:24 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd like to add Rift to the "I want" list. You know, since we're making a Christmas wish-list.</blockquote>I like rift, it's fun popping up into the air in middle of fighting,,,,,, <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Anarcheru

Bloodfa

11-27-2007, 01:32 PM

<cite>Baaltar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem I have with scouts is NOT track. Im fine with them knowing where I am at, they are scouts, that is their class defining ability. The problem I have, and I am talking as ANY class here upto t3, as I have played them all in PvP, is that a scout can basically alpha strike me to death, this includes stuns and stifles. I have no other recourse. I am sure it evens out in the later tiers and that is fine but upto t3 my request is simply this: While a scout has the track window up, and upto 30 seconds after they close it, all of thier combat arts do 50% less damage AND their reuse and cast timers are increased by 50%. They can either get the jump on me or try and take me out without being able to hunt me down. Do this and give them evac back during PvP and think you have a correct balance with track.</blockquote>They can't do something just for one tier. A scout with track up doing half damage ... okay, no prob. The Ranger plinks from a distance, snares, kites, and the Swashy runs in for the full-on damage targeting through the Ranger. Then, after a couple of kills if it starts getting hairy, the group evacs in combat as reinforcements show up. Most groups could sacrifice one of it's trackers damage in exchange for in-combat evac. In a heartbeat. Have the Dirge do half-damage while the others go nuts. You think it's bad as-is? Put in-combat evac back in and it would be the end of anybody playing anything but a Scout or a Warden. Well, except for the farmers. They'll still be mages. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 01:32 PM

<cite>Baaltar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem I have with scouts is NOT track. Im fine with them knowing where I am at, they are scouts, that is their class defining ability. The problem I have, and I am talking as ANY class here upto t3, as I have played them all in PvP, is that a scout can basically alpha strike me to death, this includes stuns and stifles.But this could be said of any class really. See.. this is how the "nerf ball" gets rolling. A few people voice their dislike of one advantage that a certain class has. Then others jump in with their own personal dislikes. Soon, if the Devs comply, you have a class that is dropped to the bottom of the food chain and rarely rolled on a PvP server as its rendered useless. I'm not being a fanobois for Scouts.. we could switch this conversation to focus on any class with the same result. While a scout has the track window up, and upto 30 seconds after they close it, all of thier combat arts do 50% less damage AND their reuse and cast timers are increased by 50%. They can either get the jump on me or try and take me out without being able to hunt me down. Do this and give them evac back during PvP and think you have a correct balance with track. Personally, I have no problem with a debuff after using Tracking if it is used to track a specific target. I run with Tracking on all the time. As such, you're stating that I should be bashed at 50% the entire time I'm logged in. That seems a little harsh and doesn't do much for the Scouts that use Tracking as a defensive measure. If they're caught, they may as well stand there and beg for a quick death instead of an opportunity to defend themselves.</blockquote>

Bob21

11-27-2007, 01:46 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Now you've gone back to the original point that I made.. and enforced it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Why have classes at all if any and all skills/spells can be bought at the broker and/or provisioner? Why not just do away with classes all together and everyone's specialties are dictated exclusively by what they wear or have sitting in their backpacks?I prefer the diversity of the classes.. every class has an advantage of one sort or another. Handing out these advantages to everyone like Uno cards is not a solution. Its only a method of turning EQ2 in to a micro-transaction based game. May as well enable Station Exchange on every server at that point.</blockquote>I agree with you. It is the number one point why I stopped playing this game at release. EVERY class was the same. You want a tank that can mez, make a coercer or an illusionist. How about one that can heal, then make any healer subclass. I think that is why there are fewer scouts and cloth casters than tanks and healers on the blue servers. Everyone made a tank and healer and leveled them because that was all that mattered for the longest time.However, I think track is out of hand in PvP. I have only been back in this game for two weeks and there is NO way I will make any other class than a scout class. The other night on Nagafen I was killed 6 times in two different zones on a bruiser while fighting a mob by scouts (25-30 minute time period). I asked myself why are there not hoards of templars of guardians killing me while I am fighting mobs in a dark corner of Nektulos forest. I think track is the answer.My opinion to fixing track in PvP would be to add a new item that gives a limited, toned down PC track. With a five or ten minute reuse timer in the primary slot, a person cannot track down and kill many people. Pulling the item out of the primary to put a weapon in to fight would close the tracking window and now they have to wait for five or ten minutes to use it again. Scouts would still be ganking people but when that x3 raid made up of 15 scouts, 1 tank, and 2 healers comes by and you just want to harvest you can go to a different zone.

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 01:48 PM

I just want to add.... from a historical standpoint the "sneaky" styled classes have traditionally been nerfed because people don't like to be surprised. Most would prefer to stand toe to toe and play Rock-em-Sock-em Robots until the person with the best gear wins.In UO for example.. the Thief class was nerfed in to oblivion. The argument was a simple whine.. "But I don't like to lose my stuff!!" or "Its not fair that I can't nuke them with 3 million points of damage first when I can't see them coming!". The element of surprise is viable aspect in PvP. And, it is the Scouts primary advantage. Once a scout attacks.. its a dime toss against an evenly matched opponent. Its also a huge reason that we're invited in to a group. Its definitely not about the group stealth we can offer.. since everyone in Norrath can see us and our group like we were all carrying "LOOK HERE!!! GROUP LOOKING FOR PvP!!". Limit it to DPS or otherwise.. and one may as well merge the scouts with fighters.Everyone carries a nerf stick around like Bam Bam from the Flintstones. Look for rational changes rather than destroying the entire profession. For example.. don't allow a scout to stealth while tracking. There.. no surprise.. even if a scout is tracking you, you can see him/her coming at ya. If not.. learn to use your camera controls better. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> On the flipside.. if a scout is stealthed, and thus, not tracking but using the same skills everyone has to track somebody down.. make stealth only visible by those also stealthed. Yes.. even those carrying totems. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> See I can compromise too without committing genocide. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Pumancat

11-27-2007, 01:50 PM

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you remove tracking, PvP on Venekor will end. The zones are big and there just aren't enough people to keep it going without some way of finding each other.Yes it makes scouts more powerful and yes because of this we're the only people who've managed to keep our titles in the rush to 80, but PvP without it would be all but impossible.</blockquote>I'm sorry, I didn't know that EQ2 PVP was based on scout classes having track. Guess that's why they call it everscout.If PVP depended solely on scout classes having track and other advantages, then they shouldn't have made any other classes for PVP. Or maybe it's just the lame player base who want all the advantages handed to them on platters that make up the majority of PVPers? Is that what you're saying?EQ1 we didn't have tracking (or at least I can't remember ) and the PVP was great. So why is most of the player base tracking enabled classes?. Simple answer - Lame players who don't want real PVP competition. YES, I said it! I've had very few good fights with some good players on scout classes. Most are just [Removed for Content] who have to use every underhanded trick, exploit, gank squad, etc. to get their pathetic little infamy or title boost. WhateverIMO PVP would be better without PC tracking due to it becoming more reliant on player skill in that chance meeting, than to have one set class be able to stalk or run and hide, or wait to get more peeps to help.If you're too [Removed for Content] a player to play without all the advantages under the sun, then go. Yes, it might hurt PVP servers for awhile, but in the end, would be a helluva better player base to start anew.Anarcheru

Baaltar

11-27-2007, 01:50 PM

Not really any class. Shamans, Guardians and Templars couldnt kill much with their 'alpha strike', let alone get the jump on anyone.If you play with tracking up all the time simply as defensive, as you state, then you wouldnt engage, that would be offensive, and can either run-away, or evac. As far as having multiple scouts in group thats easy, just make it a group effect if 1 scout uses track it affects all scouts in group. I understand they can do it out of group, but then they arent getting the full benefits of the kill. Their will always be tradeoffs but I think this is very acceptable. I cant remember the last time I saw more than 1 scout hunting me as a t1-3 toon but Im sure it happens. Gank squads, which I have encountered many usually run different classes for balance and max effiency.

ckl

11-27-2007, 01:51 PM

The underlying problem is that this is a class based game, and not a skill system. These types of games always seem to have trouble balancing 1v1 pvp, but use the cop out that the game is balanced around group pvp. Balance the game around 1v1, I say, and you'll have the game balanced at 3v3, 5v5, x4 v x4, whatever. I digress because it'll never happen.

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 01:54 PM

<cite>Bob21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>My opinion to fixing track in PvP would be to add a new item that gives a limited, toned down PC track. With a five or ten minute reuse timer in the primary slot, a person cannot track down and kill many people. Pulling the item out of the primary to put a weapon in to fight would close the tracking window and now they have to wait for five or ten minutes to use it again. Scouts would still be ganking people but when that x3 raid made up of 15 scouts, 1 tank, and 2 healers comes by and you just want to harvest you can go to a different zone. </blockquote>Adding new items to a game is not the answer though. Cause it won't stop there. Soon there will be a "tool" to counter everything. Eventually you're playing a game where you go "Ruh roh! Here comes a Coercer! Let me just equip my Counter All Coercer Spell totem!"The game is already item based as it is. Lets balance the skills.. not remove them completely or add bandages (items) to remedy the situation. Too many other games have crashed and burned from such approaches. And, I'm too old and tired to go seeking out yet another MMO that is Player vs. Player and not Pocketbook vs. Pocketbook. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bob21

11-27-2007, 02:17 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Adding new items to a game is not the answer though. Cause it won't stop there. Soon there will be a "tool" to counter everything. Eventually you're playing a game where you go "Ruh roh! Here comes a Coercer! Let me just equip my Counter All Coercer Spell totem!"The game is already item based as it is. Lets balance the skills.. not remove them completely or add bandages (items) to remedy the situation. Too many other games have crashed and burned from such approaches. And, I'm too old and tired to go seeking out yet another MMO that is Player vs. Player and not Pocketbook vs. Pocketbook. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Unfortunately, I think it is already too late for adding more items. I see there are now items in RoK for tracking avoidance. Maybe SOE wants to fix track by adding a TON of those type items. I would rather just have one item that allows everyone to track, then to have tons and tons of tracking avoidance items.I have said my piece and now I am done. I'm going to go play my troubador. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Amphibia

11-27-2007, 02:30 PM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I'm sorry, I didn't know that EQ2 PVP was based on scout classes having track. Guess that's why they call it everscout.If PVP depended solely on scout classes having track and other advantages, then they shouldn't have made any other classes for PVP. Or maybe it's just the lame player base who want all the advantages handed to them on platters that make up the majority of PVPers? Is that what you're saying?EQ1 we didn't have tracking (or at least I can't remember ) and the PVP was great. So why is most of the player base tracking enabled classes?. Simple answer - Lame players who don't want real PVP competition. YES, I said it! I've had very few good fights with some good players on scout classes. Most are just [Removed for Content] who have to use every underhanded trick, exploit, gank squad, etc. to get their pathetic little infamy or title boost. WhateverIMO PVP would be better without PC tracking due to it becoming more reliant on player skill in that chance meeting, than to have one set class be able to stalk or run and hide, or wait to get more peeps to help.If you're too [Removed for Content] a player to play without all the advantages under the sun, then go. Yes, it might hurt PVP servers for awhile, but in the end, would be a helluva better player base to start anew.Anarcheru</blockquote>You are correct, Sir. This game is clearly labeled wrong, the title should have been "Everscout 2". At least if you play on a PvP server. Of course it's unfair. Scouts on Nagafen have already racked up enough tokens for several pieces of gear, while most mages that solo will probably need a full year to gear up. I have 34 tokens on my illusionist atm, and I've paid several plats in repair bills for all the times I got ganked by a scout or gank squad while trying to kill a mob for a quest.... If I by some odd chance manage to suprice a scout - he will just evac because he didn't get the jump, and then come back and find me when I'm fighting a mob or something. It has become very clear to me of late why some classes are so much more popular than others. After all, most people prefer the path of the least resistance.... PS: Scouts who claim they need track for defense make me giggle. Can't you just press your evac button or something?

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 02:36 PM

<cite>Bob21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I would rather just have one item that allows everyone to track, then to have tons and tons of tracking avoidance items. </blockquote>And, I'd rather have one item that allows me to root anyone and everyone regardless of their class and level rather than tons of rooting avoidance items. See where I'm going with this? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 02:44 PM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>PS: Scouts that claim they need track for defense make me giggle. Can't you just press your evac button or something? </blockquote>Yup. In fact.. when I see a group zone in that's exactly what I do. Thus my point several replies ago. Most of the people upset about tracking aren't really those worried about being surprised. Its those that aren't able to get the easy 5 v 1 kill because they're easily avoided by the use of Tracking. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Meh.. my Brigand is harvester. I created him for the sole use of Tracking and Stealth so that I could use stealth to avoid mobs and harvest in aggro populated zones and tracking to avoid getting ganked while I worked nodes in a zone. If the scout class is eventually nerfed in to a fighter class, I'll just run around on lvl 9 alts to do my harvesting. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Zexxii

11-27-2007, 02:49 PM

totally agree about removing track from being able to track pvp, or, make it even, at the very minimum, make a tinkered item that will track as well, if anything is overpowered, track most certainly is, and alot of good scouts don't want to group anyway which leaves alot of groups trackless please add a tinkered item that we non-scouts can use to track

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 03:09 PM

Hows this, your a bruiser, you spot my scout alt called er... AltOfVolantiz happily questing away killing sarnak mobs in fens, you approach me from behind hiding behind trees rocks and mobs, but i evac without even turing and seeing you. [Removed for Content]! missed kill. Same bruiser grps with two or three others and spot a swashie called Kandy Vegas'Stripper on the omens call docks, you wait until he comes off the docks, all of a sudden he stops and evacs because there is a bunch of fps on track... another missed kill, and on and on. One poster says he wants to use his track to escape pvp, so do I (in any situation). and can do so easily with totems and track up. Is that fair for the bruiser who's been staking me out?

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 03:14 PM

at the end of day, its good to see so many positive agruments from both sides to the post<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> and i gotta thank you for reading it<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

MokiCh

11-27-2007, 03:25 PM

<cite>Volantiz@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hows this, your a bruiser, you spot my scout alt called er... AltOfVolantiz happily questing away killing sarnak mobs in fens, you approach me from behind hiding behind trees rocks and mobs, but i evac without even turing and seeing you. [I cannot control my vocabulary]! missed kill. Same bruiser grps with two or three others and spot a swashie called Kandy Vegas'Stripper on the omens call docks, you wait until he comes off the docks, all of a sudden he stops and evacs because there is a bunch of fps on track... another missed kill, and on and on. One poster says he wants to use his track to escape pvp, so do I (in any situation). and can do so easily with totems and track up. Is that fair for the bruiser who's been staking me out?</blockquote>I don't know about you, but I rotate my camera constantly if I'm out soloing, and I use my "target next pvp" button religiously, so chances are I'd have seen that bruiser regardless of if I had track or not.

-Arctura-

11-27-2007, 03:35 PM

((Let me translate this thread into Laymen's Terms (sp?)Scouts already got their DPS nerfed. (Twice)Scouts already got their Evac nerfed.Scouts already got their Stealth nerfed. (doing anything breaks stealth nowScouts already got their Track nerfed. (Track radius was decreased about ten-fold from release of pvp, and by the time someone appears on track they are literally on top of you)But thats JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH!Can you just REMOVE Track altogether?(After that, can we remove the Scout class altogether and replace them with Clowns? Since they will be nothing more than a joke)/sarcSeriously. Take a backstep and look at the big picture. You will end up hurting more people than helping.Why make a change to help the malicious stalkers, when you are simultaneously hurting every single innocent helpless victim?Yeah lets introduce a change that makes people more helpless so they cant even harvest in peace now!>IF< they introduce this change, They need stealth to be re-worked, and turned into PURE Stealth. Nobody can see you, not other scouts in stealth, no-one. You are invisible. Period. Thats stealth. Hide among the leaves, among the shadows. No garbage bullhockey about a magical totem allowing every lousy priest and tank to find you.

Zexxii

11-27-2007, 03:42 PM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>No garbage bullhockey about a magical totem allowing every lousy priest and tank to find you.</blockquote>you have a magical totem that allows you to track stealth and/or invis

-Arctura-

11-27-2007, 04:06 PM

<cite>Zexxii@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>No garbage bullhockey about a magical totem allowing every lousy priest and tank to find you.</blockquote>you have a magical totem that allows you to track stealth and/or invis</blockquote>(( yup, but i could care less if it was removed and Stealth was made PURE-stealth (nobody sees you)... would be a perfect tradeoff.

toenukl

11-27-2007, 04:06 PM

I think the problem most people have is that usually if a scout gets the jump they win battles. With tracking, scouts should always get the jump. If a group is coming, scouts know this and can evac away, saving titles. Scouts have it way easier to farm tokens and get high titles(remove titles ftw). I can assure you the first 100 people to don the new pvp gear will be scouts. No one here can dispute the fact that tracking=easier to find targets=more tokens.I'm all for the tracking Totem or a PvP purchased tracking item, just as poster above me said, you can use totems to see invis/stealth on tracking, so it's not so far fetched. I am not for removing tracking altogether because as previously stated there would be no pvp on venekor.It's not like if tracking totems were in the game scouts would be terrible. You still have tons of stuns/stifles, big hits, very high dps, chain armor, and evac.- - - - - - - - -And not to disagree with you Skree, I'm against removing tracking.. but:Scouts already got their DPS nerfed. (Twice) Everyone had their DPS nerfed.Scouts already got their Evac nerfed. Every evac class had evac nerfed.Scouts already got their Stealth nerfed. (doing anything breaks stealth now Every invis/stealth class or totem user had this nerfed.Scouts already got their Track nerfed. (Track radius was decreased about ten-fold from release of pvp, and by the time someone appears on track they are literally on top of you) I'll agree w/ this one =pEdited because I can not get that one line of text to turn blue!!!

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 04:26 PM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>((Let me translate this thread into Laymen's Terms (sp?)Scouts already got their DPS nerfed. (Twice)Scouts already got their Evac nerfed.Scouts already got their Stealth nerfed. (doing anything breaks stealth nowScouts already got their Track nerfed. (Track radius was decreased about ten-fold from release of pvp, and by the time someone appears on track they are literally on top of you)But thats JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH!Can you just REMOVE Track altogether?(After that, can we remove the Scout class altogether and replace them with Clowns? Since they will be nothing more than a joke)/sarcSeriously. Take a backstep and look at the big picture. You will end up hurting more people than helping.Why make a change to help the malicious stalkers, when you are simultaneously hurting every single innocent helpless victim?Yeah lets introduce a change that makes people more helpless so they cant even harvest in peace now!>IF< they introduce this change, They need stealth to be re-worked, and turned into PURE Stealth. Nobody can see you, not other scouts in stealth, no-one. You are invisible. Period. Thats stealth. Hide among the leaves, among the shadows. No garbage bullhockey about a magical totem allowing every lousy priest and tank to find you.</blockquote>lol drown out the debate why don't you lol

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 04:30 PM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's not like if tracking totems were in the game scouts would be terrible. You still have tons of stuns/stifles, big hits, very high dps, chain armor, and evac.</blockquote>Actually.. that's all they'd have. Everyone would have tracking and with other totems.. everyone would have stealth.. and everyone can already see stealth.Explain to me again how this isn't a nerf or an extinction to the Scout classes?

Magius789

11-27-2007, 04:37 PM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the problem most people have is that usually if a scout gets the jump they win battles. With tracking, scouts should always get the jump. If a group is coming, scouts know this and can evac away, saving titles. Scouts have it way easier to farm tokens and get high titles(remove titles ftw). I can assure you the first 100 people to don the new pvp gear will be scouts. No one here can dispute the fact that tracking=easier to find targets=more tokens.I'm all for the tracking Totem or a PvP purchased tracking item, just as poster above me said, you can use totems to see invis/stealth on tracking, so it's not so far fetched. I am not for removing tracking altogether because as previously stated there would be no pvp on venekor.It's not like if tracking totems were in the game scouts would be terrible. You still have tons of stuns/stifles, big hits, very high dps, chain armor, and evac.- - - - - - - - -And not to disagree with you Skree, I'm against removing tracking.. but:Scouts already got their DPS nerfed. (Twice) Everyone had their DPS nerfed.Scouts already got their Evac nerfed. Every evac class had evac nerfed.Scouts already got their Stealth nerfed. (doing anything breaks stealth now Every invis/stealth class or totem user had this nerfed.Scouts already got their Track nerfed. (Track radius was decreased about ten-fold from release of pvp, and by the time someone appears on track they are literally on top of you) I'll agree w/ this one =pEdited because I can not get that one line of text to turn blue!!! </blockquote>Rangers don't have any stifles and chain armor isn't that great, most leather wearing classess have buffs that get their mit just as high as a chain armor wearer. People just need to stop calling for changes. Personally I'm getting really tired of it and might play an inferior game that is more consistent then SOE changing everything and their mother, especially when a bunch of those changes effect the only lvl 70 character that I play. If something is grossly overpowered then yes I can see the need for a change but everybody is not going to be 100% happy and people need to stop asking for changes to make them so. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 04:37 PM

cool<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> why would the scout class be made extinct? pve you;d still have track there not taking anything out of that aspect of the game

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 04:42 PM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Rangers don't have any stifles and chain armor isn't that great, most leather wearing classess have buffs that get their mit just as high as a chain armor wearer. People just need to stop calling for changes. Personally I'm getting really tired of it and might play an inferior game that is more consistent then SOE changing everything and their mother, especially when a bunch of those changes effect the only lvl 70 character that I play. If something is grossly overpowered then yes I can see the need for a change but everybody is not going to be 100% happy and people need to stop asking for changes to make them so. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>lol its a idea rather than a request, open for discussion, i aint fussed one way or other as long as the discussion is stimulating

Bloodfa

11-27-2007, 04:43 PM

People use track for PvE? On a PvP server? "/target XXXXXX" followed by enabling autoattack would point you in the right direction, if you're close, wouldn't it?

Badaxe Ba

11-27-2007, 04:56 PM

Some people won't be happy until scouts are an endangered species, or better yet, extinct.Then they will pick a new class to hate, and cry for it to be nerfed as well.

Kincaid

11-27-2007, 05:04 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some people won't be happy until scouts are an endangered species, or better yet, extinct.Then they will pick a new class to hate, and cry for it to be nerfed as well.</blockquote>already warlocks are crying out for troubs dps to be nerfed<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />))

MaCloud1032

11-27-2007, 05:15 PM

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you remove tracking, PvP on Venekor will end. The zones are big and there just aren't enough people to keep it going without some way of finding each other.Yes it makes scouts more powerful and yes because of this we're the only people who've managed to keep our titles in the rush to 80, but PvP without it would be all but impossible.</blockquote>Funny on venny I find my pvp just fine with out track even with the world as big as it is. Guess you want it dropped in your lap. Wait it already is with your track button. /bonk head

Magius789

11-27-2007, 06:24 PM

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you remove tracking, PvP on Venekor will end. The zones are big and there just aren't enough people to keep it going without some way of finding each other.Yes it makes scouts more powerful and yes because of this we're the only people who've managed to keep our titles in the rush to 80, but PvP without it would be all but impossible.</blockquote>Funny on venny I find my pvp just fine with out track even with the world as big as it is. Guess you want it dropped in your lap. Wait it already is with your track button. /bonk head</blockquote>Well alright then that must mean that track isn't that big of deal which makes this whole thread a completely moot point.

zaltar

11-27-2007, 06:26 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to add.... from a historical standpoint the "sneaky" styled classes have traditionally been nerfed because people don't like to be surprised. Most would prefer to stand toe to toe and play Rock-em-Sock-em Robots until the person with the best gear wins.In UO for example.. the Thief class was nerfed in to oblivion. The argument was a simple whine.. "But I don't like to lose my stuff!!" or "Its not fair that I can't nuke them with 3 million points of damage first when I can't see them coming!". The element of surprise is viable aspect in PvP. And, it is the Scouts primary advantage. Once a scout attacks.. its a dime toss against an evenly matched opponent. Its also a huge reason that we're invited in to a group. Its definitely not about the group stealth we can offer.. since everyone in Norrath can see us and our group like we were all carrying "LOOK HERE!!! GROUP LOOKING FOR PvP!!". Limit it to DPS or otherwise.. and one may as well merge the scouts with fighters.Everyone carries a nerf stick around like Bam Bam from the Flintstones. Look for rational changes rather than destroying the entire profession. For example.. don't allow a scout to stealth while tracking. There.. no surprise.. even if a scout is tracking you, you can see him/her coming at ya. If not.. learn to use your camera controls better. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> On the flipside.. if a scout is stealthed, and thus, not tracking but using the same skills everyone has to track somebody down.. make stealth only visible by those also stealthed. Yes.. even those carrying totems. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> See I can compromise too without committing genocide. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote> The only " element of surprise " is the ongoing cost to repair gear after being continuously back stabbed by track users while engaged with mobs. Tell me this crap again about an "even dime toss " when someone is on low hp from pve before a Scout class hits them for most of the remainder. I have a better idea , instead of nerfing track , nerf the damage output from the first hit from behind that initiates the encounter. Or better yet , give classes without track evac and take evac away from the ones that have track . People don`t want everyone to be the same yet the majority of players are using Scout classes for this reason , easy tokens . It must be nice to be able to pick and choose your battles on an open pvp server when no one else has that option. Scouts may as well have a toggle to turn pvp on and off depending on the perceived threat. Oh wait they do , it`s called Track. I think I would like to be able run around Nagafen and pick and choose where I`m going to pve without being bothered , save fame by evacuating and gain fame most of the time by always getting the first big hit in or guiding a group of 5 players to some poor slob that`s struggling to kill 1 monster on low hp so they can wipe him off the map in 1 hit. The only class that doesen`t have to take any chances on a pvp server and everyone knows it including the OP who has a Scout himself. Like shooting fish in a barrel .

Spyderbite

11-27-2007, 07:25 PM

<cite>zaltar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> People don`t want everyone to be the same yet the majority of players are using Scout classes for this reason , easy tokens .</blockquote>Funny stuff. Generalizations suck without numbers to back it up. You do realize that 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Amphibia

11-27-2007, 07:33 PM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the problem most people have is that usually if a scout gets the jump they win battles. With tracking, scouts should always get the jump. If a group is coming, scouts know this and can evac away, saving titles. Scouts have it way easier to farm tokens and get high titles(remove titles ftw). I can assure you the first 100 people to don the new pvp gear will be scouts. No one here can dispute the fact that tracking=easier to find targets=more tokens.I'm all for the tracking Totem or a PvP purchased tracking item, just as poster above me said, you can use totems to see invis/stealth on tracking, so it's not so far fetched. I am not for removing tracking altogether because as previously stated there would be no pvp on venekor.It's not like if tracking totems were in the game scouts would be terrible. You still have tons of stuns/stifles, big hits, very high dps, chain armor, and evac.</blockquote>This is spot on.

Magius789

11-27-2007, 07:57 PM

All I see in this thread is people saying boohoo I was killed by a scout while engaged in PvE and I think its unfair. Guess what some person walking by could have just as easily done the same thing. For the record I rolled a scout before I even realized what tokens were for. Also for the record a scouts tracks range isn't that great. I've seen posts from people saying "boy I wish I could have something that would let me know when an enemy zoned it". Well guess what, it doesn't tell you that unless you are right next to the zone line anyway and since they have immunity when they zone it you have plenty of time to escape. I can't count the number of times I've been surprised and killed by a group that has never even showed up on my track.

toenukl

11-27-2007, 09:02 PM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I see in this thread is people saying boohoo I was killed by a scout while engaged in PvE and I think its unfair. Guess what some person walking by could have just as easily done the same thing. For the record I rolled a scout before I even realized what tokens were for. Also for the record a scouts tracks range isn't that great. I've seen posts from people saying "boy I wish I could have something that would let me know when an enemy zoned it". Well guess what, it doesn't tell you that unless you are right next to the zone line anyway and since they have immunity when they zone it you have plenty of time to escape. I can't count the number of times I've been surprised and killed by a group that has never even showed up on my track.</blockquote>Yes, people that are killing mobs next to a commonly walked area will be attacked by wander-by's; however, people that are killing mobs out of sight will only be noticed by tracking. Again, tracking=more PvP targets=more tokens. I think the reason so many people complained about Rangers, Swash, and Brigs in T7 was simply because any of them worth their grain of salt had PvP gear, which DID make them overpowered to the non-tracking class w/ 20 tokens. Tracking is nice for scouts, like Rangers or Assasins, that depend on getting the first hit in. But, it's the way PvP gear is obtained, through tokens, that makes tracking overpowered and should be given to everyone imo, that or change the way PvP gear is obtained(best solution).The problem is that tracking has been a scout based ability on PvP servers since launch. To change this midstream would make a TON of scouts upset(see this thread), and SOE doesn't wanna lose them. Sure, numbers show scouts are NOT the majority class, but they are the most common active classes that you see out and about. There is a lot wrong about EQ2's PvP (PvE is best there is tho <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />), but at this point not a lot can be done, and if it does it must be done carefully.

Amphibia

11-27-2007, 09:16 PM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I think the reason so many people complained about Rangers, Swash, and Brigs in T7 was simply because any of them worth their grain of salt had PvP gear, which DID make them overpowered to the non-tracking class w/ 20 tokens. Tracking is nice for scouts, like Rangers or Assasins, that depend on getting the first hit in. But, it's the way PvP gear is obtained, through tokens, that makes tracking overpowered and should be given to everyone imo, that or change the way PvP gear is obtained(best solution).</blockquote>Yeah, I never understood why they keep charging non-track classes equal amount of tokens for gear as trackers. Don't they understand that track makes it possible to obtain this gear 10 times faster? Honestly, as long as scouts are the only ones with track, all classes without it really shouldn't be charged the same amount of tokens. Maybe cut the required amount of tokens in half for all non-trackers, so they may have a chance to keep up.

Jaydawarlord

11-28-2007, 12:11 AM

People just continue to complain about scouts. Scouts this... Scouts that... I'm sorry, but it is BS. Track is powerful and I will give you that. However, I can't tell what class it is from my track. I may acually be able to guess their level, but usually not 100% sure. I don't know if they are full fabled or not. I don't know if they are in combat or not. Despite all that, when I see them in track, they are either on the other side of the wall or already chewing on my hide. Besides all that, IT IS OUR JOB! We are DPS, we can see things, we can sneak. [Removed for Content] do you think scouts are supposed to be, a healer? Lets take a look at Manashield... that stops scouts pretty good... why do they have it, BECAUSE IT IS WHAT THE CASTERS DO! Think about what overpowered abilities you might have before you go ripping on scouts... and think about your own skill in playing a class, maybe you would be better as something else... or maybe you don't belong on a pvp server if you can't deal with the abilities others may have.

valkyriepc

11-28-2007, 01:18 AM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you remove tracking, PvP on Venekor will end. The zones are big and there just aren't enough people to keep it going without some way of finding each other.Yes it makes scouts more powerful and yes because of this we're the only people who've managed to keep our titles in the rush to 80, but PvP without it would be all but impossible.</blockquote>I'm sorry, I didn't know that EQ2 PVP was based on scout classes having track. Guess that's why they call it everscout.If PVP depended solely on scout classes having track and other advantages, then they shouldn't have made any other classes for PVP. Or maybe it's just the lame player base who want all the advantages handed to them on platters that make up the majority of PVPers? Is that what you're saying?</blockquote>OR, realize that this is a group based game and that there is a REASON there are multiple classes with strength's and weaknesses. TO GROUP WITH THEM AND FILL IN YOUR OWN WEAKNESS WITH THEIR STRENGTH AND YOUR STRENGTH FILLING THEIR WEAKNESS....*gasp* Ok seriously though, if you want heals, taunts, track, evac, tier1 dps. Then flippin group. There is a REASON there are multiple classes. I would agree with your assessment of the pvp community and scouts if scouts could track heal taunt, have wards and reactives. But they don't. Half the people [Removed for Content] about scouts are the paper to our scissors. They are classes that get beat easily. Majority of scouts have a rough time with healers, Sk's paladins berserkers, bruisers, monks. They really only shine over bards (who doesn't) and cloth classes.

convict

11-28-2007, 03:15 AM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you remove tracking, PvP on Venekor will end. The zones are big and there just aren't enough people to keep it going without some way of finding each other.Yes it makes scouts more powerful and yes because of this we're the only people who've managed to keep our titles in the rush to 80, but PvP without it would be all but impossible.</blockquote>I'm sorry, I didn't know that EQ2 PVP was based on scout classes having track. Guess that's why they call it everscout.If PVP depended solely on scout classes having track and other advantages, then they shouldn't have made any other classes for PVP. Or maybe it's just the lame player base who want all the advantages handed to them on platters that make up the majority of PVPers? Is that what you're saying?EQ1 we didn't have tracking (or at least I can't remember ) and the PVP was great. So why is most of the player base tracking enabled classes?. Simple answer - Lame players who don't want real PVP competition. YES, I said it! I've had very few good fights with some good players on scout classes. Most are just [Removed for Content] who have to use every underhanded trick, exploit, gank squad, etc. to get their pathetic little infamy or title boost. WhateverIMO PVP would be better without PC tracking due to it becoming more reliant on player skill in that chance meeting, than to have one set class be able to stalk or run and hide, or wait to get more peeps to help.If you're too [Removed for Content] a player to play without all the advantages under the sun, then go. Yes, it might hurt PVP servers for awhile, but in the end, would be a helluva better player base to start anew.Anarcheru</blockquote>Very well said... Thats why we see so many druids/scouts.. Easymode.. I've never seen so many people in a single game that had to have everything easy.. If scouts/druids werent OP, then why are there so many? This thread is mainly talking about removing an ability that has no place in pvp, I said that when the servers went live while playing my swashy I USED to have, and Im still saying it.Why can someone see what level I am,faction/ from my shoe size? My 1st pvp toon was a swash, went to level 43 with him, no adept 3's, only adept 1's and app 1's, whatever gear I found, and was champion titled easily. I deleted him due to easymode pvp. You'll notice by the post from scouts, mainly the ones with thier kvd ratio sigs, dont like this thread.

Spyderbite

11-28-2007, 07:13 AM

<cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>You'll notice by the post from scouts, mainly the ones with thier kvd ratio sigs, dont like this thread.</blockquote>/snickersYou haven't seen my KvD lately have ya?! I guarantee that I'm the exception to your stereotype. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But, then again, I'm just chiming in here to voice my opinion about the idea of removing my primary survival tool as a harvester. It used to be Stealth.. but then I dinged level 12 and everyone thereafter could see me anyways. Should be "Glow In The Dark" vs. Stealth. XD

Subu

11-28-2007, 07:24 AM

Well if there was anyone who wasn't convinced that tracking is overpowered he will be after reading these posts. All the arguments came from the scouts themselves. They can choose when they want to fight, when to avoid a fight. Hello guys that sounds like a god ability to me. You must be out of your mind if you cant even admit how overpowered that is. The problem tho is that you will always have a chance if a troub tracks you because he doesn't have the dps to kill you within3 or 4 secs. But the other scout classes have. So while you fight a mob there is like no chance to avoid being killed. But let's the positive effects of removing track. Yes there is one who is very important. IT WILL LEAD TO MUCH MORE PVP!!!!!!!!You know what all the scouts have to do if they wont find easy targets anymore?They have to meet in some place like kylong docks and pvp their against others to get their tokens. It's even chances there and many other classes will join in.In EQ1 there was a zone called "Overthere?" and you could always go there if you wanted to pvp. I know that sounds scary in the ears of most scouts. Even fights, maybe meeting other scouts they avoided all the time because they really have skill.da Sheep

Spyderbite

11-28-2007, 07:27 AM

<cite>Subu wrote:</cite><blockquote>IT WILL LEAD TO MUCH MORE PVP!!!!!!!!</blockquote>Lemme translate that for you...YAY.. WE'RE ONE STEP CLOSER TO FISH IN BARREL PVP!!!!!!<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Subu

11-28-2007, 07:36 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Subu wrote:</cite><blockquote>IT WILL LEAD TO MUCH MORE PVP!!!!!!!!</blockquote>Lemme translate that for you...YAY.. WE'RE ONE STEP CLOSER TO FISH IN BARREL PVP!!!!!!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>No we are one step closer to PVP not GOP(Ganking other players). But after reading your other posts you really seem to be this guy who has successfully avoided an even fight all time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />PS: I know you love track but just for once go playing without it. You will feel this excitement if you don't know whats happen all the time.

Tae

11-28-2007, 07:45 AM

<cite>Subu wrote:</cite><blockquote>But let's the positive effects of removing track. Yes there is one who is very important. IT WILL LEAD TO MUCH MORE PVP!!!!!!!!</blockquote>After all, making it even harder to find people is going to increase the amount of PvP. I sure do love going out on my berserker and wandering around aimlessly until I'm lucky enough to spot someone in the distance. Also, I do know what class and what gear everyone who appears on my track is and has. Because Venekor's population is just that low. My kill versus death ratio isn't so much because of track. It's because I have utterly uninterruptable 1 second cast evac.

Spyderbite

11-28-2007, 07:47 AM

<cite>Subu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>But after reading your other posts you really seem to be this guy who has successfully avoided an even fight all time. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>That's untrue and unfair! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />I avoid all fights if possible.. fair or otherwise. XDI chose a Brigand when I started playing so that I could harvest relatively unmolested and avoid most of the mobs in order to get to hard to reach nodes in tiers above my adventure level. So, I'm not complaining about taking a skill away from me that gives me an advantage in a fight. My character is hardly suited up to compete and I'm a button masher anyways so I rarely win a fight with anyone that I engage.I do very well on Venekor as a supplier of resources and rares. The removal of Tracking will not put me out of business. But, it will make a huge difference on how efficiently I am able to harvest.So, listening to people tell me (indirectly) that I'm "overpowered" is sort of humorous. As it stands now.. even Stealthed, I'm already like the little fish that tries to blend in with the reef but gets gobbled up regardless on the Discovery channel. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Edit: I'm not going to call anyone out.. but I did receive a PM last night from a Q who asked "Hey! You mentioned you were a harvester. Do you have any rough coral you could trade with my sister who plays a freep for some jasper?"My response.. "Yup.. sure do.. I got about 30 corals right now.. have her send me a /tell. Limited time offer of course. Only while supplies last.. or they remove Tracking.. whichever comes first! XD"

Jaydawarlord

11-28-2007, 08:18 AM

The suggested removal of track would take away a tool that scouts are meant to have. I have played games where scouts didn't have track but their damage was just as good as any caster, so it ended up working fine. I know that I personally have a hard time to keep up with casters on my assassin. If you want track removed, then I want the damage amounts that casters get by spamming Fireball or some crap to be on my assassin. I want my abilities to do 2,000 damage every hit with a 10 sec cooldown in pvp... or we can keep track and everything would be O.K.

-Arctura-

11-28-2007, 08:31 AM

(( im guessing you dont have a Scout and pvp lately.Maybe youd be surprised to learn that TRACK DOES ALMOST NOTHING in pvp anyways, because the Track radius is about 1/4 the visual draw radius of the in game player-character avatars.So , you see someone coming from really far away... you dont even HAVE a name appear on track until they are right next to you. So go ahead and tell me about how 'excited' ill be when i cant see peoples names on track...Thats how it is ...now.SOMETIMES it works JUST IN TIME to save the scouts life. This is what makes it still worthwhile.PS. Removing a tool for finding pvp WONT lead to much more pvp. LOL

Naglfar

11-28-2007, 08:38 AM

Track is not such a big deal, and it can be used by any players grouped with a scout.And usualy a good friend list / guild and a minimal amout of logic is almost as effective as track to find people.

Amphibia

11-28-2007, 08:48 AM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( im guessing you dont have a Scout and pvp lately.Maybe youd be surprised to learn that TRACK DOES ALMOST NOTHING in pvp anyways, because the Track radius is about 1/4 the visual draw radius of the in game player-character avatars.So , you see someone coming from really far away... you dont even HAVE a name appear on track until they are right next to you. So go ahead and tell me about how 'excited' ill be when i cant see peoples names on track...Thats how it is ...now.SOMETIMES it works JUST IN TIME to save the scouts life. This is what makes it still worthwhile.PS. Removing a tool for finding pvp WONT lead to much more pvp. LOL</blockquote>I find this hilarious. Do you really believe this yourself? Have you ever tried to play a class without track and evac? PS: Since the release of RoK, I have been ganked constantly while fighting mobs for quests. I play an illusionist, and there is no escape. None. I don't even have evac. So I have to take the death, lose my items and whatever cash I have on me, my fame AND get armor debt EVERY TIME. We're probably talking somewhere between 50 and 100 deaths here so far, or more - and that has lead to some pretty hefty repair bills, let me tell you! I'm only level 74. Leveling is slow when you have to revive, rebuff, run back and repair all the time. I can tell you right now that I can count on my fingers on one hand how many times I was found and killed by a non-scout while fighting mobs, probably just 2-3 times. All the other times it was either a scout or a group with a scout. How the hell do they always seem to find me if track is irrelevant in PvP? Please explain that. Edit: grammar

Grimfort

11-28-2007, 08:56 AM

I've only briefly read this thread, but had an idea. I don't mind track, knowing people are near you is as many have said, a class defining ability. However, how about modifying it so you can't get an exact location for PC's, track tells you they are nearby, but you can't lock track, you cant get an exact position. This way you know if enemy is nearby, but you can't tell exactly where. You cant exactly suprise a scout with this information and it also allows us non-trackers a chance to remove that gps satellite stuck to our ars'es that I'm sure counts for most of the reason why you get chased down whatever way you try to run. btw, I'm not actually asking for this as it doesn't bother me, I just thought of it is all.

Tae

11-28-2007, 09:24 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> I find this hilarious. Do you really believe this yourself? Have you ever tried to play a class without track and evac? </blockquote>Skree is actually right. A lot of the time in Kunark you can see the people before they're on track. I don't know why this is, but it's happening a lot. You can click on them too, but next PvP target won't work. It doesn't change the utility of track in any way, you can't be expected to sit there rotating your screen all the time, but it's still a fact.

Pumancat

11-28-2007, 11:55 AM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite> PS. Removing a tool for finding pvp WONT lead to much more pvp. LOL Admit it, you're not using track to " find PVP " you use it to pick and choose your PVP, or better put, your " EASY " targets. Most people have been around long enough for you ( at least in T6, 7, or 8 ) to know exactly who they are and what class, etc. As someone else claimed, they use track to avoid PVP. So what we have is a 2 edged sword here on the uses of track. And both sides are for one type of class only to have unfair advantage over all other classes. = to pick and choose your PVP/targets, or to avoid PVP. No, I cannot believe that track is as gimped as you say when I've been PVP grouped with a scout, and he could see who was in almost the whole zone, and almost tell what island they were on in Barren Sky. Every time I've been ganked out in the wilds, or even solo attacked, it has Always been because of a scout in the group, or a solo scout tracking me, not some random BS group trying to do quests. They are out there to specifically gank solos for tokens or faction, and they use scouts primarily just for their tracking of these easy targets.Lie to the other classes, and lie to yourselves all you want, but the fact remains - Tracking in PVP is the most unfair advantage that any class will have over the others in this game.Anarcheru - 73 bruiserVenekor server

max.power

11-28-2007, 01:18 PM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lie to the other classes, and lie to yourselves all you want, but the fact remains - Tracking in PVP is the most unfair advantage that any class will have over the others in this game.</blockquote>That's absolutely true.People, stop trying to argue over this fact, please! Tracking is only fair in a group vs. group setting, because every group can have it's tracker. In solo PvP tracking is overpowered - I know, my main is an assassin. When I'm out on my bruiser I can feel how hard and unbalanced PvP is running around blind.And stop telling people without track that they should always run see-totems and pan their camera 24/7 - that's nonsense! Of course, running totems is a must, but a good scout hides behind walls/rocks/hills or jumps from a griff and only attacks in the right situation.I wouldn't care much if SOE decides to remove track. Even playground for everyone. But SOE, please! Fix the rendering issue!

Tamar

11-28-2007, 01:39 PM

Many people are saying track is a "tool that increases PvP". Well that is kind of assumptive.It is a tool that shows whether something/someone is near or not. It can just as easily be used to avoid PvP, thus being a "tool that decreases PvP", and thats what I think it really is. It allows the picking and choosing of fights before they are even in range other than isolated instances where rendering (or something) caused tracking lag.~IMO~ track should be usable in PvP, but it should be different that the PvE version. There should be a skill involved in tracking. Players shouldn't con at all. If you want to know whether they are an enemy or not, scout them out. Make scouts learn their enemies names. Make it to where a person might have a reputation as a good tracker as he knows his enemies names. Remove "track lock" as that is extremely ridiculous. If the "target" makes it out of range, then they are out of range. You shouldn't be able to just pop open your map and follow their journey across Norrath. A little more extreme, but cool, would be to make tracking "contested". Your track skill, yes you have one, open your skills and look, could be pitted against the opponents "tracking avoidance" skill to see if he shows on track. Allow stealth and invisibility, and possibly other things, to affect the "tracking avoidance" skill.Summary for those allergic to text: Tracking is viable in the game, but in its current PvE style implementation, it is overpowered and seriously weights the advantage in PvP to scouts or those with scouts.

Bloodfa

11-28-2007, 02:38 PM

How about we reduce the area affected by Rift while we're at it? Because [Removed for Content], that group with 3 clothies in it last night dropped our groups in 2-3 seconds.I don't use totems, I think it's a cheat rather than a balance and that's a personal choice (I rely on a caster to give me "See Invisibility" or do without), and I'd be all for removing the ability to target somebody through tracking. I just like having an early warning system. I know several who do. I also know a few who hate the way a Coercer can lock down 2 or 3 scouts and sic a charmed pet that crits for 4,500 damage in one shot, kill two of us twice and then send that pet in to break the immunity of those rebuffing in the revive. Or the way an SK can evac. And a certain evil deity can give you a get-out-of jail free card as well, but the good side has no equal counterbalance to it. But to quote my mother, "Who said life's fair?"My Monk has pretty nice avoidance ... I wonder if that's overpowered? I mean, at 32 my brother and I raced our alts through Tenebrous Tangle. His 32 Ranger got all of 20 meters from the first cloud pad before dying, and I ran the zone without a single NPC twice my level hitting me, and made a ton of discovery XP to boot. Definitely sounds overpowered to me; my Swashy couldn't try that at 50. And spamming the "nextPvP target" "previous PvP target" keys with my Warden ... that's something that needs to be looked at, too, because it picks up at ... hmmm, about the same distance as with my Swashbuckler. I'm sorry that your scouts can't track, but guess what? They're not scouts. Their strengths lie in other areas. Stephen Hawking may very well be the most brilliant man alive, but toss him in a kiddie pool and I'd wager my 7 year old would fare much, much better.

KannaWhoopass

11-28-2007, 03:07 PM

First it is not Tracking it is Radar that would make any spy satilite envious.A story of tracking . as we fly into the Ice City our scout told us1)Jump off a group is waiting for us (tracking while in the air nice ..must have one helluva nose on him)2)The number of people waiting for us. 3)The level of the people waiting for us. 4)When they flew away 5)That one was left behind, that he was in a pyramid .. and moving west.6)That there were no other people arround. 7)Where his group flew to. All of this while standing near the revive spot near the druid rings. Tracking is not tracking it is Radar .. stop calling it tracking ... it isnt If a scout got a message in their track window .. "Barbarian was here moving west""Ratonga was here moving East"That would be tracking , and i think would be viable , in PvP.When standing arround in a group of people not in your group .. tracking would be confusing.. Alot of Races and directions would flood the tracking window .. as would appen to a real tracker if they stood in an area with several overlaping tracks. But in open areas would still be a great tool . However i think the big complaint is this 80% of classes with this radar ability. can 1)Kill you in 8 seconds2)snare you so you cant run away. 3)Hit you with high DPS arts while you run . 4)Use poisons which can debuff all stats, snare, regen power , regen health , debuff all mitigation stats. 5)Can stealth to not be seen 6)can see stealth or invis or both with a totem. And tracking all of a sudden tracks invis stealth also 7)with AA selection can mitigate dps like a plate tank .. and have high HP values. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> Have abilities to stun , root , interupt 9) have evac to escape any time a situation looks bad. 10) Can increase in combat run speed to escape once a fight has started or outrun an opponent who tries to run. 11) Some can charm to break an encounter that is going badly/drop combat .. then evac.If the Radar ability belonged to a class to could ... find you but not root you .. OK or Find you and be a low dps class ... ok .. or be a class who once found had limited options of escape .. ok .. But the scout class has so much going for it without Radar .. that its inclusion in the skills is overpowering .. which is why Scouts are the first to have PvP gear. Have the high KvD ratios. I speak to scouts in my guild who kill over 80 people a day and collect about 55 tokens a day. As a healer i may kill that many in a group ... a day .. and get 3-6 tokens .at those rates he will be in full PvP gear in January 2008 . I will have mine done sometime in 2009 .. not an exageration at all . Tracking is borked because there is no clas in game to counter it. It is a skill with no opposing skill. All classes have skills to counter the strength of other classes. Be it Speed , Mitigation Resists .. However track has no anti track. And it should ... there should be a class in the game who has Anti track .. a class who cant be found by scouts without visual. And who can offer that buff tro a group in range. I chose the shamen class for this because .. of all classes they are the ones who would not get overpowered if you cant find them ... if they surprise a scout ... who cares .. the scout just walks away .. but providing a group with radar immunity .. would go a long way to balance out what is really Everscout .. in terms of PvP ..

Jaydawarlord

11-28-2007, 05:05 PM

Tracking is a part of High fantasy games. Go look at DnD, where a lot of these games get inspiriation, and look for track and im sure you will see a section about it. To get rid of it, you are just getting rid of more of the fantasy feel. With the recent expansion, many races got a stealth ability for free. Sure it takes power overtime but when the game was released, stealth was supposed to be a scout thing. Scouts are already feeling nerfs, they come slow but they are still hitting us with the nerf bat.If you really have that big of a beef with track, then go play PvE or better yet, go create the "perfect" game that reflects your own opinions. As well, don't cry out crap against other classes until you look at yours. Every class has its power and if you get rid of track, then I want to see those other powers go bye-bye and then we all essentially play a one class game. Doesn't that sound fun(<---- Sarcasism)

Vampirian2000

11-28-2007, 05:12 PM

Remove Track...Stealth is enough of an advantage....I remember in the old days of DAoC, us stealthers actually had to search for our prey. And talk about moving slow while stealthed....I know, I know....way to much work. Easier just to click the PC and follow the glowing trail.

Jaydawarlord

11-28-2007, 05:15 PM

<cite>Vampirian2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remove Track...Stealth is enough of an advantage....I remember in the old days of DAoC, us stealthers actually had to search for our prey. And talk about moving slow while stealthed....I know, I know....way to much work. Easier just to click the PC and follow the glowing trail. </blockquote>Its not that stealth is too slow or it is too much work. Its that everyone and their grandmother can see through it. Make it an absolute stealth and get rid of this racial stealth crap and then I would have no problem.Scouts are all about surprise, our stealth doesn't surprise.

Vampirian2000

11-28-2007, 05:23 PM

I believe the stealth is noticeable at 30 ft right? (or is it 20)Keep that for the racials and drop the Scout classes down to 10 ft. A lot of the stealthed attacks are good upto 7ft. So that last 3 ft gives enough of a surprise.

Jaydawarlord

11-28-2007, 05:30 PM

<cite>Vampirian2000 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe the stealth is noticeable at 30 ft right? (or is it 20)Keep that for the racials and drop the Scout classes down to 10 ft. A lot of the stealthed attacks are good upto 7ft. So that last 3 ft gives enough of a surprise.</blockquote>There are freaking totems that enable see stealth. Even is those dissappear, our stealth attack range is only 5 meters not 7. Still not a surprise. That is enough time for a healer to start healing, or a caster to pop manashield, or a tank to AE and knock us from stealth. No difference than what happens now...

Eblis

11-28-2007, 06:08 PM

An "undetectable stealth" would be way worse than having track, but what do I really know...I'm a lvl 66 Necro.Seriously though, Imagine never seeing the stealted scout? I might as well not even summon my pet or buff up <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Jaydawarlord

11-28-2007, 06:14 PM

I guess track isn't too bad compared to pure stealth eh.

Eblis

11-28-2007, 07:12 PM

<cite>Jaydawarlord wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess track isn't too bad compared to pure stealth eh.</blockquote>I've been playing Mage classes forever now...I just deal with it. Sucks getting killed alot, but thats how it goes. I can re-roll a scout too, but i dig the Necro. And no, Track is nothing compared to full stealth. And if you had full stealth, then you should have full invis...But thats for another discussion <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Pumancat

11-28-2007, 10:17 PM

All this thread is doing is turning out a bunch of lame players crying about their advantages over other classes, and wanting to stay that way.Remember, this is all conjecture and opinions.The [Removed for Content] KNOW this is their main advantage, so they're going to defend it with all the excuses, lies, ect. they can think up. And if that doesn't work, they make up BS complaints about other classes that give them a hard time to kill instead of a 2 - 5 second, 2 button one. Then thay saying ok, but give us something uber to replace our big advantage so we can stay the god-like class.Have I put it in perspective? Yes, PVP would lose about half it's player base if scouts lost their main advantage. Not because tracking is that vital to PVP, but because MOST scout players are too [Removed for Content] of players to outright PVP in the first place. As has been stated, they use it to AVOID PVP. So who's the blame for lack of PVP on here again? Oh wait! you don't really mean you avoid it completely, you just avoid it till you can use it again to find the perfect situation for you to have total dominance without risk. There's the main aspect of tracking that scouts use it for. Every other excuse is just a LIE.Like I said, It's the [Removed for Content] players who have to do all the defending of their precious OP advantages.Anarcheru - 73 bruiserVenekor server

-Arctura-

11-28-2007, 10:44 PM

<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/roll.gif" border="0" alt="" />I dont like how much HP and mit plate tanks have, and find my scout falls over dead too easily.I guess i should just start a petition DISGUISED as a 'benign discussion thread' attempting to NERF plate tanks and take away all that HP and mit!Its not FAIR that my class cant do everything!!!I want teh ultimate clazz!!!!! *temper tantrums*/sarc<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/DarkShadow2ONEXX--------------.gif" alt="" border="0" />

convict

11-28-2007, 11:14 PM

You already have it if you play a druid or a scout.. Plate armor is a joke against scouts/casters/healers, everyone..

Amphibia

11-29-2007, 12:34 AM

Personally, I wouldn't have had any issues with track, if they just removed evac (here goes a zillion opportunities for a fight out the window) and titles (main reason to avoid PvP) from the game AND lowered the amount of tokens required to buy PvP gear for the classes without track. It is the total and complete lack of balance that is the problem here. If some classes should remain this powerful, then the other classes are going to need some more help. A priest, fighter or mage should only pay half the amount of tokens or less pr PvP item, since the rate in which they have a chance to attain them is going to be much, much slower. HELLO, DEVS?????

-Arctura-

11-29-2007, 05:07 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I wouldn't have had any issues with track, if they just removed evac (here goes a zillion opportunities for a fight out the window) and titles (main reason to avoid PvP) from the game AND lowered the amount of tokens required to buy PvP gear for the classes without track. It is the total and complete lack of balance that is the problem here. If some classes should remain this powerful, then the other classes are going to need some more help. A priest, fighter or mage should only pay half the amount of tokens or less pr PvP item, since the rate in which they have a chance to attain them is going to be much, much slower. HELLO, DEVS?????</blockquote>(( sorry but never going to happen. Different token requirements for different classes? Suuuuure.The classes are designed to compliment eachother with different skill sets and abilities. Thus technically making a kind of balance. And until one class admittedly becomes the weakest class in the game (and it says so in patch notes), they will never make a token requirement disparity.My predictions about evac are its going to stay the same now, it got SOOOO nerfed LOL you STILL want evac nerfed more???You cant evac when engaged. The only thing that would come from nerfing it further would be punishing the victims, allowing no-escape. Which is something the scout class is designed to do, is be light footed and able to control their engagements, thus being a scout. You would never send in some huge heavy juggernaut guy with lead shoes as your scout, what good would that be when he has to get out of a sticky situation and report back? Sheesh, honestly look at it roleplay wise, if you cant look at it gameplay wise.I would reccomend you put on faster boots to catch that scout before he evacs so you can get your kill.Whats happening here now with this latest trend of "nerf track, nerf evac more, nerf scout damage MORE, nerf scout abilities, nerf scouts, remove scouts from game' kinds of threads, is because people saw that SOMETIMES changes happen if you complain enough, and the issue is debated to the point of making a logical sensical improvement to the game.But removing features that are SAVING innocent players who arent engaged, is VERY unlikely to occur.You might as well ask to have all of X-class to become godlike, or whatnot. Its on the same level of reason.((I will however say this.Content Team...PLEASE ADD LEVEL 80 TINKERER TOTEMS ---> Gnomish Tracking Radar. (Allows user to use the 'track' ability, contains 20 charges (or something)will stop the complaints and save Track for scouts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and i suppose would level the playing field, i would TOTALLY support this since it would increase the amount of pvp that happens <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Theoretically)<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/DarkShadow2ONEXX--------------.gif" alt="" border="0" />

Amphibia

11-29-2007, 06:17 AM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I wouldn't have had any issues with track, if they just removed evac (here goes a zillion opportunities for a fight out the window) and titles (main reason to avoid PvP) from the game AND lowered the amount of tokens required to buy PvP gear for the classes without track. It is the total and complete lack of balance that is the problem here. If some classes should remain this powerful, then the other classes are going to need some more help. A priest, fighter or mage should only pay half the amount of tokens or less pr PvP item, since the rate in which they have a chance to attain them is going to be much, much slower. HELLO, DEVS?????</blockquote>(( sorry but never going to happen. Different token requirements for different classes? Suuuuure.The classes are designed to compliment eachother with different skill sets and abilities. Thus technically making a kind of balance. And until one class admittedly becomes the weakest class in the game (and it says so in patch notes), they will never make a token requirement disparity.My predictions about evac are its going to stay the same now, it got SOOOO nerfed LOL you STILL want evac nerfed more???You cant evac when engaged. The only thing that would come from nerfing it further would be punishing the victims, allowing no-escape. Which is something the scout class is designed to do, is be light footed and able to control their engagements, thus being a scout. You would never send in some huge heavy juggernaut guy with lead shoes as your scout, what good would that be when he has to get out of a sticky situation and report back? Sheesh, honestly look at it roleplay wise, if you cant look at it gameplay wise.I would reccomend you put on faster boots to catch that scout before he evacs so you can get your kill.Whats happening here now with this latest trend of "nerf track, nerf evac more, nerf scout damage MORE, nerf scout abilities, nerf scouts, remove scouts from game' kinds of threads, is because people saw that SOMETIMES changes happen if you complain enough, and the issue is debated to the point of making a logical sensical improvement to the game.But removing features that are SAVING innocent players who arent engaged, is VERY unlikely to occur.You might as well ask to have all of X-class to become godlike, or whatnot. Its on the same level of reason.((I will however say this.Content Team...PLEASE ADD LEVEL 80 TINKERER TOTEMS ---> Gnomish Tracking Radar. (Allows user to use the 'track' ability, contains 20 charges (or something)will stop the complaints and save Track for scouts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /> and i suppose would level the playing field, i would TOTALLY support this since it would increase the amount of pvp that happens <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /> (Theoretically)</blockquote>Arctura, two things:Your evac is uninterrruptable as soon as you start to cast it. You didn't know that? I can stun you for a short while to prevent you from casting it, and I can stifle you for a few seconds as well to stop you from casting it - but as soon as it starts casting, nothing can stop it. Only wizard,warden and SK evac can be interrupted that way. And most classes don't do enough damage to stop a scout long enough to kill him if he want to get away, because control effects add immunity as soon as they run out. It's basically a free out of jail card - and combined with track it gives the scout the possibility to pick and choose fights all the time. You think of yourself as a victim if you lose evac? C'mon, what do you think a clothy gets? I have no problems looking at this gamewise, and I think it is utterly ridiculous that they give all these abilities to classes that would be powerful as hell even without them. I stopped caring about roleplay a long time ago, but if you insist on talking about that - how come an uneducated thug such as a brigand is capable of using the best available magical escape portals in all of Norrath, while my highly educated illusionist has no idea how to do that? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />And to even mention how evac got "nerfed" from how it worked before is silly. Back then, engaging a scout was just meaningless. You knew he was gonna chicken out as soon as he was about to lose the fight. It was flat out broken. They had no choice but to change that. And why is different charge for tokens such a bad idea? Let's say a roundshield for scouts could cost 400 tokens, which is an amount a scout can get fairly fast. Fighters can't get tokens in anything near that rate, so let's just say a fabled towershield for guardians require only 200 tokens. Let's say the swashbuckler PvP armor set will cost 300 tokens a piece, while the guardian will only need to pay 150 each piece. That way they may both have a chance to see these items before 2009. Does that sound so unreasonable? OR:We can use your idea instead, and provide a tracking item for everyone. It could be a tinker item with charges (as long as it does not require rares to make), or an item designed specifically for PvP servers, and available to all non-trackers. I'm more in favor of a PvP spesific item, as the blue servers will whine like stabbed pigs if everyone and their mother can suddenly track nameds in dungeons and such. Because I don't think anyone here is asking to be able to track mobs. Just players. This item should be restricted to players only.

Krakelkr

11-29-2007, 06:25 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-</cite>Arctura, two things:Your evac is uninterrruptable as soon as you start to cast it. You didn't know that? </blockquote>I didn't know that. Is that really true? And when did it change if so? I know it used to be interruptable by stuns, happened enough times.

Amphibia

11-29-2007, 06:35 AM

<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-</cite>Arctura, two things:Your evac is uninterrruptable as soon as you start to cast it. You didn't know that? </blockquote>I didn't know that. Is that really true? And when did it change if so? I know it used to be interruptable by stuns, happened enough times.</blockquote>Someone may call me a noob now and say it is wrong. But honestly, it does seem to work that way. I've heard a lot of scouts say the same thing. I also have a scout myself, and nobody has ever been able to stop me from evaccing. When I hear the evac sound begin to play - everything I do from that point on, is in vain. I can only stop someone from starting it (for a few seconds), but not interrupt it. If someone knows how to do that, feel free to call me a stupid nub and kindly explain how. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />It's gotten to the point where I have to just let the scout hit me before I engage. As an illusionist, that is extremely risky, but it's the only way to make sure he will not get to evac.

Devilchild

11-29-2007, 10:06 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say No.As a scout.. I use tracking as a defensive tool which I do believe upsets more players than it does those who dislike being hunted down by the use of it.While I'm harvesting on my Brigand.. I can see the group of 4 yellows zone in on my tracking and I have the opportunity to high tail it out of their tracking range. On the other hand, if I see a solo yellow off in the distance.. a quick glance at my tracking tips me off to the other 10 grays they have in tow who he/she is playing bait for and I know to avoid that trap as well.There are two sides to every story.. and both sides need to be addressed before requesting a nerf. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote> Both points are one. You can track and kill players but cant be tracked and killed yourself..

zaltar

11-29-2007, 10:10 AM

When it comes to balance issues I`m generally more in favor of adding things to classes that are not on par with othersrather than nerfing existing abilities , however in this case the simple solution would be to give EVERY class a choice betweenone of two abilities , track or evac .You can have the option to track players or the option to evac from those who are tracking you but you can`t have both skills.This gives all classes the freedom to choose their battles , not just scout classes .

-Arctura-

11-29-2007, 09:15 PM

(( Evac CAN be interrupted. Evac CAN be stopped. It hasnt always been this way, but a LONG time ago, maybe LU 30 or something, it was changed to be interruptible.Just knock them around and it will cancel it. Trust me, ive tried to evac so many times and seen every possible iteration of evac failure.You guys in this thread are on so much of a Jihad against all scout abilities, now you cant decide what you hate more and want nerfed first... was this thread about evac? or track? *laughs quietly*<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/DarkShadow2ONEXX--------------.gif" alt="" border="0" />

Aeralik

11-29-2007, 10:00 PM

I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Notsovilepriest

11-30-2007, 12:07 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I love you

seejester

11-30-2007, 12:43 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Now THAT will ruffle some feathers lol. Can you imagine what THAT would be like for some of the hardcore scout-only players? To look around and not be certain what's behind that rock?This should be fun =D

zaltar

11-30-2007, 12:57 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote> I can`t wait to see this.

Magius789

11-30-2007, 02:12 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Even more proof that if you complain enough things will get changed.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />So after you get done [Removed for Content] [Removed for Content] the scouts on these servers maybe you could provide some insight on who is next that way when I roll a new toon because I'm tired of my only 70 toon getting its [Removed for Content] handed to it by developers who don't play their own game and only listen to the whiners who exagerate stories. Maybe I'll roll a templar but with the logic you guys use to nerf things pretty soon you'll find something wrong with them and the process starts all over again.So when do I get an item to counter the PT that almost kills me instantly, or the ice nova, or the decap? Since it seems everything in the game is going to have an item that counters it when can we expect those changes to happen?*claps* to all the whiners who are doing a good enough job because you feel your class isn't designed the way you want it to be. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Spyderbite

11-30-2007, 02:19 AM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Even more proof that if you complain enough things will get changed.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>QFT.. But, to be fair to the Dev team.. it isn't a flaw with the way things are handled in EQ2. Traditionally, if enough people kick and scream like a 6 year old in the toy isle at Walmart.. it will be addressed. This applies to the gaming industry in general.. not just EQ2. PvE servers are a good example.. there wouldn't be any segregation between PvE and PvP if people didn't throw tantrums because they didn't like to die and preferred a Utopian society. And, they got it.

Notsovilepriest

11-30-2007, 03:30 AM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Even more proof that if you complain enough things will get changed.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />So after you get done [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] the scouts on these servers maybe you could provide some insight on who is next that way when I roll a new toon because I'm tired of my only 70 toon getting its [I cannot control my vocabulary] handed to it by developers who don't play their own game and only listen to the whiners who exagerate stories. Maybe I'll roll a templar but with the logic you guys use to nerf things pretty soon you'll find something wrong with them and the process starts all over again.So when do I get an item to counter the PT that almost kills me instantly, or the ice nova, or the decap? Since it seems everything in the game is going to have an item that counters it when can we expect those changes to happen?*claps* to all the whiners who are doing a good enough job because you feel your class isn't designed the way you want it to be. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Privan, I have supported your cause the whole way, but every scout that I know says Track is OP.If there is a way to stop track or counter it, you will have to look behind the corner for people hiding just like everyone else. Its not that bad, you will just die a little more <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Amphibia

11-30-2007, 05:50 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Thank you for listening to us! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

mtwideen

11-30-2007, 06:22 AM

Hey Notso... i don't think track is overpowered for me (maybe for other scouts) cause I only use track, so I can find someone so I can chase them down, until they realize I am a dirge and they turn around and kill me... so track gets me more deaths than kills <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

convict

11-30-2007, 09:01 AM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Even more proof that if you complain enough things will get changed.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />So after you get done [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] the scouts on these servers maybe you could provide some insight on who is next that way when I roll a new toon because I'm tired of my only 70 toon getting its [I cannot control my vocabulary] handed to it by developers who don't play their own game and only listen to the whiners who exagerate stories. Maybe I'll roll a templar but with the logic you guys use to nerf things pretty soon you'll find something wrong with them and the process starts all over again.So when do I get an item to counter the PT that almost kills me instantly, or the ice nova, or the decap? Since it seems everything in the game is going to have an item that counters it when can we expect those changes to happen?*claps* to all the whiners who are doing a good enough job because you feel your class isn't designed the way you want it to be. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>WOW, look at the scouts start cryin when theres a chance easymode might not stay so easy.. Now who is cry'n here? Thats funny.

Krakelkr

11-30-2007, 10:02 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I think it's a good idea. (OTOH, people won't use it anyway. See vision totems <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> )

Sebhan

11-30-2007, 10:25 AM

This is what happens when pvp is an afterthought. Anyway, I hope that whatever it is, it is well thought out and implemented fairly. Some scout classes, imo, rely on the element of suprise to do their job. Other classes get tools to deal with suprise attacks. I wouldn't mind loosing tracking if stealth was increased in power a bit. Seems like every nerf/change/fix they do is to scouts.Edit: Just curious, do you think it will ever get to a point where scout utility is so low that people start taking mages in groups for dps and utility ahead of them?

rvbarton

11-30-2007, 10:29 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>The sooner the better please...

rvbarton

11-30-2007, 10:31 AM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Even more proof that if you complain enough things will get changed.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />So after you get done [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] the scouts on these servers maybe you could provide some insight on who is next that way when I roll a new toon because I'm tired of my only 70 toon getting its [I cannot control my vocabulary] handed to it by developers who don't play their own game and only listen to the whiners who exagerate stories. Maybe I'll roll a templar but with the logic you guys use to nerf things pretty soon you'll find something wrong with them and the process starts all over again.So when do I get an item to counter the PT that almost kills me instantly, or the ice nova, or the decap? Since it seems everything in the game is going to have an item that counters it when can we expect those changes to happen?*claps* to all the whiners who are doing a good enough job because you feel your class isn't designed the way you want it to be. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Welcome to the world of the "Non-Scout" classes. Who's whining now?

Tae

11-30-2007, 10:49 AM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( Evac CAN be interrupted. Evac CAN be stopped. It hasnt always been this way, but a LONG time ago, maybe LU 30 or something, it was changed to be interruptible.</blockquote>No, it can't. The only way to interrupt an evac in progress is to mez the person using it. There's absolutely no other way. Meanwhile the other evacs (warden, shadowknight, wizard) will be interrupted by any interrupt or knockback ability and are pretty much useless because of it.

Siphar

11-30-2007, 11:37 AM

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( Evac CAN be interrupted. Evac CAN be stopped. It hasnt always been this way, but a LONG time ago, maybe LU 30 or something, it was changed to be interruptible.</blockquote>No, it can't. The only way to interrupt an evac in progress is to mez the person using it. There's absolutely no other way.Meanwhile the other evacs (warden, shadowknight, wizard) will be interrupted by any interrupt or knockback ability and are pretty much useless because of it.</blockquote>So your saying the scout evac should be useless as well?

Siphar

11-30-2007, 11:42 AM

Ways to counter evac: -<ol><li>Kill them fast</li><li>Mez and see point 1</li><li>Stifle/stun them before hand then see point 1</li><li>Bait them into engaging a solo then see point 1</li><li>Let them evac then return to their spawn point and wait for them to break immunity and see point 1</li></ol>All these have varying degrees of success... but all essentially can beat evac.

Dh

11-30-2007, 12:12 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>So the one +tracking avoidance item really doesn't currently work? I knew it! I know all about pvp items not working. warlock t7 pvp forearm: encounter root proc hasn't worked since I earned them many months ago. Even tho it is a useless proc since I already have encounter root and once its cured, they are immune to root until the fight is over. If you ever get around to fixing it, a snare would be more useful.

sprogn

11-30-2007, 12:14 PM

I play pretty much all classes in the game, over 50 I play a Guard, Zerk, Ranger, Mystic, Conjurer. Over 20 I play a Swash, Troub, Warlock, Wizard, Illusionist and Monk.I am completely in favour of full removal of "Track Players" from the tracking window. There's no way to cover it, scouts have a HUGE advantage over any other class at the moment. As someone who plays a high level scout I'd completely be up for removal of track.And while we're on the topic, there are a few ways to interrupt a scouts evac. A stifle or stun followed immediately by an "interrupt" (not a stun, an INTERRUPT) will always break someone's evac.

sprogn

11-30-2007, 12:20 PM

Just one example of how exploitable track is btw:I had a white con assassin sneak up on me just before the servers went down. I saw him coming and broke him out of stealth. He started running away. Sprint, got him down to 30% HP, still running away. Dropped sprint as my power was at 30%. Chased with a bow but he kept going out of range running away. Deliberately sprinted to make him think I was almost OOP - cancelled it at 10% power. Assassin makes a run at me. I kill him, /loot chest.I fly to the other side of Fens sit there for a few minutes then start moving out. Hide behind a building and low and behold, here comes the assassin. Hit destruction, juggernaut, dead assassin.I fly again, sit behind a building and 3 minutes later there he is AGAIN coming right at me. Knowing that it's never going to end I let him hit me, then fly off. I /camp out and come back in, but there's the assassin standing by my logout spot. I /camp again and play an alt.This is what it's like as a non-tracker. It's not just that people can track you down and kill you at a time that is convenient to them, it's the fact that when they have T1 DPS, Evac, Fast innate runspeed AND track - and they STILL screw up, they can KEEP coming back, and back, and back, and back -locking you in on track pretty much forever until you zone or camp out.So again, vote for complete and total removal of track players feature from PVP... imho.

Willian

11-30-2007, 12:26 PM

Yes I agree, GET RID of tracking all together! Make scouts work for thier kills, tracking pfffft talk about fishing in your bathtub....lmfao! I can feel SOE warming up now in thier bullpen with thier big NERF bat! hahaha ! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Dh

11-30-2007, 12:40 PM

<cite>sprognak wrote:</cite><blockquote>I play pretty much all classes in the game, over 50 I play a Guard, Zerk, Ranger, Mystic, Conjurer. Over 20 I play a Swash, Troub, Warlock, Wizard, Illusionist and Monk.I am completely in favour of full removal of "Track Players" from the tracking window. There's no way to cover it, scouts have a HUGE advantage over any other class at the moment. As someone who plays a high level scout I'd completely be up for removal of track.And while we're on the topic, there are a few ways to interrupt a scouts evac. A stifle or stun followed immediately by an "interrupt" (not a stun, an INTERRUPT) will always break someone's evac.</blockquote>The thing is, you can't just stun a scout casting evac and stop them from evacing. How they complete an evac while stunned or stifled boggles my mind. I leveled 2 scouts to 70 on PVP, still leveling a few scouts and enjoy them. Once I changed to warlock I really noticed how OP track and Evac can be. People can and will find/stalk you over and over for 30 minutes when you kill them in a fair fight. I don't see how 'tracking avoidance' will change anything when u can still watch exactly where someone is moving with a big fat X on your map even when they are out of tracking range. If the X on the map was removed coupled with some kind of adornments to reduce the range you can be tracked then you might have something that is a 'counter' to track. Maybe even an item you can drop that would fool someones track in to thinking you havent moved from that spot then u show up behind the scout and blast him with the first attack. That would be cool.

Amphibia

11-30-2007, 01:08 PM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Even more proof that if you complain enough things will get changed.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />So after you get done [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] the scouts on these servers maybe you could provide some insight on who is next that way when I roll a new toon because I'm tired of my only 70 toon getting its [I cannot control my vocabulary] handed to it by developers who don't play their own game and only listen to the whiners who exagerate stories. Maybe I'll roll a templar but with the logic you guys use to nerf things pretty soon you'll find something wrong with them and the process starts all over again.So when do I get an item to counter the PT that almost kills me instantly, or the ice nova, or the decap? Since it seems everything in the game is going to have an item that counters it when can we expect those changes to happen?*claps* to all the whiners who are doing a good enough job because you feel your class isn't designed the way you want it to be. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Wow! You make it sound like we are looking to ruin your fun or something. I can only speak for myself, but that is not my intention at all. Unless your fun is based around getting easy ganks. In that case - sorry.Just let me ask you this: When you find a clothy on track and gank him while he's fighting a mob, can you possibly imagine what that situation *might* look like from the other side? I know it's difficult, but please try. You can be pretty sure you're not the first person to do that to him that day. You're probably the 20th scout in a row or something. That's why there aren't many casters out and actively PvP'ing anymore a while into an expansion. But they're out now, because they need to level up. And the scouts know how to take advantage of that, let me tell you.... I was trying to quest the other day myself, and I got ganked to the point where I needed to go and repair my gear, and then I got ganked some more on my way to a mender. I was this [ ] close to delete my character alltogether. A guildie who plays a conjuror said the exact same thing. I also know of a lot of fighters and priests who've been wondering lately why they rolled those classes too. Is the state of PvP in this game is just fine then? No, it isn't. As a matter of fact, all non-track and non-evac classes have a really rough time in this game right now.

KannaWhoopass

11-30-2007, 01:25 PM

Tracking as a skill is not so bad. The classes who posses it , in PvP are what makes it a problem. Imagine if you will if a Guardian had track. Would any one care if a guardian started to run early , I dont think so , they cant evac , low dps , cant snare or root you. So when they find you , who cares , just turn and run away , they cant catch you . But it is an issue , when a scout , who has the option to leave any fight when desired , can slow you with poison and CA's to -45% run speed. So that even if you dont engage in combat , their in combat run speed bonus still allows them to be faster has such a skill. A solo Wizard or Warlock , Corecer , Illusionist Necro , Conj. Operate at about 65% of their full potential. A Solo Scout operates at about 80%. With Deagro from troubs and debuffs from other classes . the cloth wearers can hit their full potential. But in PvP engagements where even grp figts only last 20 seconds average. Scouts are the high dps classes hands down. So having track is just too much, or as i said before Radar. If tracking was a text only feature , which gave race , and direction, with no glowing X marks the spot of the current location of the target on the map. Then it would be tracking. And would be fine in PvP. With players switching sides so often , a text of "Ratonga prints leading west" would not tell you what faction the person was. Or what level they were . So a Qeyenos group might take off and track down a fellow citizen. If tracking was disabled in flight, and in combat, or better yet if the tracker had the track window open , he slowed down to walking speed . All of these would limit it from being what it is today. Its like every class is wearing GPS tag , and scouts use a satilite to pinpoint players. Its silly really. So if the act of tracking made the scout vulnerable to other players . By dropping stealth and or slowing their movement speed. Or if there was a class who could counter the effects , it woldnt be so bad. To me its like having one class having Lightning attacks .. and no gear or class in the game to give Electric mitigation. I came back to add to this because i have been thinking about it. And as a minimum alteration to the ability .. If scouts had to drop tp -20% run speed while using the ability , and stealth and tracking could not be used at the same time. It may not be so bad... A scout sees you on track . and is not in stealth .. and moving slowly . starts to move toward you but cant move quickly... nor stealth . When closing the tracking window stealth and tracking have a 5 second cooldown.So now he knows where you were and starts toward you .. but if you were moving .. he will need to slow down and track again to see where you went. So if you are standing still killing mobs you will still be a prime target for scouts ... But if you are moving the scout will never catch up to you with the track window open. and while heis in combat will never see more people arriving. And while he is moving at full speed will not have tracking window open . And with a cooldown on track and stealth .. will need to find a victim .. then wait then approach with no track in stealth . to jump their .. prey ... but i sill like anti track better

sprogn

11-30-2007, 01:29 PM

Exactly. I realise scouts are a fun class to play - I play a few myself, but it is kind of interesting looking around Qeynos harbour and seeing all these new L80 scouts already equipped with 400 token PVP weapons.It is getting ridiculous, especially when 95% of these scouts will run from me if I'm not already fighting. They just sit there watching the X on their map with a max range /target watching my HP. As soon as they dip, bam in they come.I actually had a L80 Exiled Ranger refuse to fight me today (74 Berserker). He point blank ran from ANY attack I tried to make. When I gave up and went back to my mob I hit 51% health in PVE and bam, snipers arrow from a 50m longarm bow. (Autoattack damage was crap all and I couldn't retaliate with my bow). In he comes, gets his Champ title, /laughs, evacs and goes AFK for 15 minutes.I'm tired of all the "LoL, learn to play" shiznit that goes on. My 63 Ranger can go do exactly the same thing - I've dropped L75 fame kills because I've tracked a target that's weak for long enough. But it's tiring, it's lame and to be completely honest, it's not much fun.

Magius789

11-30-2007, 02:00 PM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>Even more proof that if you complain enough things will get changed.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />So after you get done [I cannot control my vocabulary] [Removed for Content] the scouts on these servers maybe you could provide some insight on who is next that way when I roll a new toon because I'm tired of my only 70 toon getting its [I cannot control my vocabulary] handed to it by developers who don't play their own game and only listen to the whiners who exagerate stories. Maybe I'll roll a templar but with the logic you guys use to nerf things pretty soon you'll find something wrong with them and the process starts all over again.So when do I get an item to counter the PT that almost kills me instantly, or the ice nova, or the decap? Since it seems everything in the game is going to have an item that counters it when can we expect those changes to happen?*claps* to all the whiners who are doing a good enough job because you feel your class isn't designed the way you want it to be. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Wow! You make it sound like we are looking to ruin your fun or something. I can only speak for myself, but that is not my intention at all. Unless your fun is based around getting easy ganks. In that case - sorry.Just let me ask you this: When you find a clothy on track and gank him while he's fighting a mob, can you possibly imagine what that situation *might* look like from the other side? I know it's difficult, but please try. You can be pretty sure you're not the first person to do that to him that day. You're probably the 20th scout in a row or something. That's why there aren't many casters out and actively PvP'ing anymore a while into an expansion. But they're out now, because they need to level up. And the scouts know how to take advantage of that, let me tell you.... I was trying to quest the other day myself, and I got ganked to the point where I needed to go and repair my gear, and then I got ganked some more on my way to a mender. I was this [ ] close to delete my character alltogether. A guildie who plays a conjuror said the exact same thing. I also know of a lot of fighters and priests who've been wondering lately why they rolled those classes too. Is the state of PvP in this game is just fine then? No, it isn't. As a matter of fact, all non-track and non-evac classes have a really rough time in this game right now. </blockquote>You act like no scout has ever been jumped while fighting a mob also. You are constantly complaining because you think it isn't fair you get attacked while fighting mobs. Thats the whole point of being on a PvP server, danger around every turn etc etc. It sounds like you perfer a duel server as oppose to a PvP one where players must present themselves to each and ask if you are ready before you engage. No offense but you say you don't want to ruin anything for anybody but it seems every thread you start is asking for some sort of nerf to the scout class. Tell me your class and I can pick five things you can do that I don't is fair, but do you see me starting nerf threads out the wazoo because of it? No because I realize the differences in classess and have made my peace with them.You ask me to put myself in your shoes so I know how it feels, sure I have alts that get beat all the time by scouts. Now put yourself in our shoes and imagine being nerfed about eight straight updates in a row. This is about the eigth straight update in which my class has been nerfed in some way. You get upset because you get killed while fighting a mob and almost cancel your account, imagine your class being nerfed or buffs REMOVED eight straight times. Because of you boohoo I got killed people scouts aren't scouts anymore, we are low grade fighters. And yes I have alts that get blasted by scouts all the time but I realize its part of the game and my class wasn't designed to solo all that well. Maybe now when I get killed by a method I think is unfair I'll just make a thread about it so I can get it nerfed.Maybe in the next update the devs can just uber nerf us and get it out of the way so we can finally see what will be left of the scout class after the bloody bludgening we are getting with the nerf bat.I think I'll just start a templar now, I can't forsee any nerfs to them coming so atleast I know the class all the way to lvl 80 instead of having to relearn it every update. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Edit: Scouts have such low utility in groups, especially rangers, take away our ability to track and what usefullness do we have to groups? Other than my group pathfinding run buff tell me what usefullness I have to a group if I can't track?

Aeralik

11-30-2007, 02:28 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>So the one +tracking avoidance item really doesn't currently work? I knew it! I know all about pvp items not working. warlock t7 pvp forearm: encounter root proc hasn't worked since I earned them many months ago. Even tho it is a useless proc since I already have encounter root and once its cured, they are immune to root until the fight is over. If you ever get around to fixing it, a snare would be more useful.</blockquote>Oh I forgot about the 2 new items that have this already <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> They have a small chance but its still nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tae

11-30-2007, 02:52 PM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>You act like no scout has ever been jumped while fighting a mob also. Edit: Scouts have such low utility in groups, especially rangers, take away our ability to track and what usefullness do we have to groups? Other than my group pathfinding run buff tell me what usefullness I have to a group if I can't track?</blockquote>I never have, why don't you have track up when fighting a mob? And you'll have massive massive dps, that's what I have.

Kincaid

11-30-2007, 02:55 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>cool<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Akin

11-30-2007, 04:01 PM

Track is OP.

Saroun

11-30-2007, 04:17 PM

IMO the part of track that is OP is the X on the map that is unlimited range. That X should have the same range as the track window. Fix that, and alot of the problems associated with track will go away.

Pumancat

11-30-2007, 04:29 PM

<cite>Magius789 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Edit: Scouts have such low utility in groups, especially rangers, take away our ability to track and what usefullness do we have to groups? Other than my group pathfinding run buff tell me what usefullness I have to a group if I can't track?</blockquote> Awsome Dps and effects of your poisons and attacks, in almost instant cast, that the victim has no chance for your group to finish off in mere seconds.I sat there on BB docks a couple of those Sunday duel " events " with my wizard, and guess what? only the scouts would challenge me to duel. I've had my manashield eaten through in 6 seconds by a swashy, and of course rangers usually get me before I can even try to cast MS.Nyarlath - 70 wizardVenekor

Mighty Melvor

11-30-2007, 04:30 PM

<cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO the part of track that is OP is the X on the map that is unlimited range. That X should have the same range as the track window. Fix that, and alot of the problems associated with track will go away.</blockquote>Agreed. It is the only flaw that I can see ATM.The rest of the 'it is OP' posts are just whines.

KannaWhoopass

11-30-2007, 04:31 PM

Im surprised no one likes my idea1)I thought slow movement with track open , with no stealth. 2)a 5 second cool down on stealth after closing track and vise versa 3)The X on the map following a player only available while trackingwas gold pure gold!! Made alot of sense to me .. You can track em but cant keep up to them if they are moving away from you. While you are tracking you are visible... To toggle from stealth to tracking involves a 5 second ish pause ..Not possible to track and run or ride a carpet /horse/griff/cloudThe big victims of scouts would be slow movers harvesters . people loitering in an area. Scouts would need to linger in areas visible to others to use tracking . Then loose tracking ability once they are sure where their target is .. so they can pop into sealth . And sneak up on their prey.I think this would help to prevent Flying from station to station .. with tracking windows open .. till they get a target ..then jumping off in stealth .. moving at full speed to their target with track open .. and pouncing.

Bloodfa

11-30-2007, 04:58 PM

So if we lose tracking, what do the others lose? One quarter of the classes get the hit, the other quarter should get something. How about no manashield once engaged? Or no feign death once engaged; the Bruiser tactic of running into heroics and feigning, leaving the others to fight them while PvP nerfed in movement is an abuse ... isn't it? Mezzing in combat, now that's a "wha ....?" for ya, as it's "realistic" for a person who is about to kill an enchanter is obviously prone to suddenly becoming hypnotized while in combat. Disable all deity abilities once PvP is engaged. Remove all group heals once in combat, because a healer shouldn't be able to track everybody in his group while fighting for his life.A question for the Dev above: do you play on Nagafen? Does your PvP experience come from the test server, where uber-buffed toons are a click away? Or are you planning something solely based on the posts placed by others? Just looking for some perspective here, insight as to why some classes have gotten boosts (see Manashield), some are completely ignored (Paladin's, Necro's and Conjurors), and scouts are the target of the month. Rangers got nerf-hit when singled out, Brigands and Assassins got smacked about a while ago, and Swashies had a couple of hits to their T7 game a while back (so I heard, as I wasn't too solidly into that tier at the time). Tell me, when are Ice-comet and Rift coming up for a hit? I swear, casters are the biggest single group to complain about how somebody else is overpowered, they have zero survivability, yet all the farming bots are, for some odd reason, casters. How many Ranger or Assassin farming bots are there? Negate scouting from scouts ... negate nuking from nukers, tanking from tanks, and crowd control from the enchanters. And then the scout-haters will there be saying "but ... we need it, it's what we do!" Tracking and fast attacks are what we do. Negate tracking and we're cut-rate fighters wearing chain armor and having 1 taunt. A Paladin or Druid would be a better choice.Here's a surprise for some people that may not have thought this through ... it cuts both ways. This comes down, the guys out solo, regardless of class, are going to be hurt even more, because the guilds using vent will have the ability to drop 20 guys on a group of 6 and nobody's going to see it coming. Either way, I won't be surprised if something comes down on scouts and it's one-sided. Bards and Rangers, they're going to be meat. Posts like this will be commonplace when a hint like the above dev comment is dropped. Either go into it more, or don't bring it up until you're ready to drop it in for testing. There already is a counter to tracking. It's called tracking. If you choose to solo, expect that others will have specific advantages, and groups will have tremendous advantages. Denial of that simple fact is turning this into Evernerf. I'll be working on pushing my Warden up to T8 now, since he'll be more viable. Until a mage gets bent about not being able to burn him down fast enough, cries nerf and marginalizes healing. But hey, I'd still have SoW, immunity to root, the new racial speed buff, and will be able to evade combat even better than a scout with tracking, totems, and in-combat evac.

Bloodfa

11-30-2007, 05:01 PM

Actually, Kanna, I think those are some good suggestions. They won't ever be implemented, but they're good suggestions. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Powers

11-30-2007, 05:16 PM

I thought it was axiomatic that classes in EQ2 are not balanced for one-on-one PvP?Powers &8^]

Wraithstalker

11-30-2007, 05:18 PM

I fully support the no tracking from stealth suggestion, even as an assassin, I think it will make things a lot more challenging and definitely add to my gameplay.

Magius789

11-30-2007, 05:20 PM

Hey here is an upside to this....atleast a dev actually said something. They could have just ninja removed it like the ranger buff and then have everybody on the forum saying something is broken my track isn't working which in fact thats exactly what they intended.Taear I pretty much always have my track up but as I'm sure you well know it doesn't work all the time. I've actually had your little stacked PvP group you roll in jump me and never show up on my track even when I have both totems up and running.Face it in a few more months, with this trend, there will be a way to counter every single spell, CA, or ability a class has from an item. Then it will stop being PvP and begin to be whoever has the biggest monitor and can have the most hotbars up and still see their character will win.

Cigam

11-30-2007, 05:23 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite> <blockquote> One quarter of the classes get the hit, the other quarter should get something. </blockquote>Maybe I didnt read the whole post correctly but this doesnt add up to me? Shouldnt it say the other 3/4's?

Bloodfa

11-30-2007, 05:29 PM

<cite>Cigam@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite> <blockquote> One quarter of the classes get the hit, the other quarter should get something. </blockquote>Maybe I didnt read the whole post correctly but this doesnt add up to me? Shouldnt it say the other 3/4's?</blockquote>See what happens when you start posting and the phone rings? Pwnd by math ... [Removed for Content]. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

MaCloud1032

11-30-2007, 05:33 PM

Blood rift, ice comet, apoc, sniper shot, harmtouch, decap, and all other big hitters took quite a large nerf quite some timeago. I personaly can remember a time when decap was a death shot on who ever it hit other than plate. I reember 1 shot fusions. 6-8k PTs. At the end of T7 all of these were balanced for the most part. Rift only hurts so bad because its a PbAoE and ushaly clips 3+ people in group pvp.

Badaxe Ba

11-30-2007, 05:39 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>This is good news for non-trackers. After a little thought, it might even be good news for trackers. If an item is put ingame that can counter tracking, then obviously Dev's are not removing tracking.Now, how about an item to counter manashield?How about an item to counter Ice Nova?At least we can say its not a ninja nerf or removal.

MaCloud1032

11-30-2007, 05:49 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>This is good news for non-trackers. After a little thought, it might even be good news for trackers. If an item is put ingame that can counter tracking, then obviously Dev's are not removing tracking.Now, how about an item to counter manashield? Mental breach poisons work quite wellHow about an item to counter Ice Nova? evac/kill them first/drain mana/dont engage them just a few ideas or go stand toe to toe just dont stand in front of themAt least we can say its not a ninja nerf or removal.</blockquote>

Magius789

11-30-2007, 06:07 PM

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>This is good news for non-trackers. After a little thought, it might even be good news for trackers. If an item is put ingame that can counter tracking, then obviously Dev's are not removing tracking.Now, how about an item to counter manashield? Mental breach poisons work quite wellHow about an item to counter Ice Nova? evac/kill them first/drain mana/dont engage them just a few ideas or go stand toe to toe just dont stand in front of themAt least we can say its not a ninja nerf or removal.</blockquote></blockquote>But thats not how SOE does things, they don't ask people to learn their class better they just nerf, remove, and add items that counter the effects of other classess. So sure we can learn to adapt but why when all we have to do is complain and whine and we can get items to do it for us.Making track less effective or not at all hurts every scout class however it hurts the bards and rangers most of all. Its true most scouts need surprise to do really good dmg however classess such as swashy, brig, and assassins make their bread and butter in melee range. So while track might help them get their decap off easier they still have tools to do it mid fight. In the case of bards who lack dps this will greatly increase the bait tactic and any surprise dmg they can do. In the case of rangers we NEED surprise because its the only tool we have to get and keep range on our targets. Making track less effective or not at all will mean we get jumped and then stand no chance at getting the range we need to even attack our target. When's the last time you heard of a ranger meleeing a person to death? Thats right...never.Since there is a tool or item being introduced to reduce the effects of track how about a tool or item to increase the effectiveness of steatlh? You already negated its purpose with totems so how about something that will actually give us real stealth instead of the trash you have given us now?

Bloodfa

11-30-2007, 06:09 PM

Yep, I agree, a bunch of them took a big hit a while ago. Doesn't stop a couple of them from being overpowered, though. Harm Touch, ironically, doesn't require any actual contact. It can be done at the max range I have for Ranged Combat. Rift and Ice Comet hitting you in combat takes you down to near death if you survive it, and usually the healers are dead afterwards. Tracking isn't a god-ability that gives an insta-win. Could it use tweaking? Yes, I'll be one that will gladly concede that point, and have agreed that some of those suggestions above were good ones (at least in my opinion). Remove it from flight, fine, that's not an issue. Everybody can spam the "next PvP target" button when flying. I knew a Warden who got Champion solely from utilizing that button while flying in Nektulos. I watched him in action a couple of times. He'd pick them up before they popped on my tracking window, drop down on them, root them, and have them dead in record time. This is an option available to anyone, and I use it when not playing my main, so I'm not seeing it as gamebreaking. I see targets before they pop on track, when in an open area. Is there going to be a call to nerf dual video cards in SLI as well? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I mean, not everybody has it, right?Negating it, which is what the dev inferred was coming up, is not addressing an issue. Taking the car in for a tune-up because it's making a rattle from the muffler, and having the mechanic take a hacksaw to it just past the exhaust manifold ain't what I call a fix. Here's a suggestion to those planning on introducing a "counter" to a major ability: add in something that does the same thing to one of every archetype's abilities. An anti-heal device. An anti-taunt item. A Mage Shielding negation potion. I'm sorry, maybe I'm overreacting, but when a Dev comes into the conversation and says that he's working on something to counter this ... well, there was no mention about the Ranger nerf and we all see how that went down. I'm going to raise a little hell over this because if they're confident about this going through and drop a hint like that, then all I can expect is for it to allow an invisible mage, now no longer showing up on track, to get comfortably within range, Chain me, pop Manashield, and nuke the bejesus outta me and mine. The new choice group would be Fury, Shaman, Warden, Wizard, Warlock, Warlock.

toenukl

11-30-2007, 06:38 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's a suggestion to those planning on introducing a "counter" to a major ability: add in something that does the same thing to one of every archetype's abilities. An anti-heal device. An anti-taunt item. A Mage Shielding negation potion. </blockquote>Not this again... Take away healers healing they have nothing, take away taunts tanks have little to nothing.. take away tracking? Scouts still have fast quick kills w/ t1 DPS and evac if they get jumped... Really a whole different ballgame, comparing apples to oranges imo.

toenukl

11-30-2007, 06:40 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm going to raise a little hell over this because if they're confident about this going through and drop a hint like that, then all I can expect is for it to allow an invisible mage, now no longer showing up on track, to get comfortably within range, Chain me, pop Manashield, and nuke the bejesus outta me and mine. </blockquote>Yes, would be totally different from what swashies do now, track Mages, stun/stifle lock them and interrupt everything they try to cast, killing them before they get off one spell.

Bloodfa

11-30-2007, 06:56 PM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm going to raise a little hell over this because if they're confident about this going through and drop a hint like that, then all I can expect is for it to allow an invisible mage, now no longer showing up on track, to get comfortably within range, Chain me, pop Manashield, and nuke the bejesus outta me and mine. </blockquote>Yes, would be totally different from what swashies do now, track Mages, stun/stifle lock them and interrupt everything they try to cast, killing them before they get off one spell.</blockquote>Give me Manashield and I'll trade tracking in a heartbeat.

Rabbitoh

11-30-2007, 09:47 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a neat little effect to counter tracking. Maybe sometime in the future it will make it's appearance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>While you're implementing your counter tracking thing, why don't you make rangers a useless class to play all together.Thanks for the ninja nerf to focus aim btw, it has been a blast killing wizzies, warlocks and healers now, much appreciated!!Rangers are the scout class that depends on track the most, as our name suggests we need range and track gives us this advantage.Think before you bow to the whiners. All I see in this post are noob players who have failed to learn their class properly and wish to make other classes useless in order for them to compete some what.If you are a class without track, guess what: group with a tracker. The game has seen enough nerfs, lets not make all classes the same.Molok ranger of the mighty guild Purity

toenukl

12-01-2007, 01:18 AM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm going to raise a little hell over this because if they're confident about this going through and drop a hint like that, then all I can expect is for it to allow an invisible mage, now no longer showing up on track, to get comfortably within range, Chain me, pop Manashield, and nuke the bejesus outta me and mine. </blockquote>Yes, would be totally different from what swashies do now, track Mages, stun/stifle lock them and interrupt everything they try to cast, killing them before they get off one spell.</blockquote>Give me Manashield and I'll trade tracking in a heartbeat.</blockquote>Without tracking swashie will still be a power house, although not be led right to prey. Without manashield sorcerers will be token vendors. incomparable rly.

Spyderbite

12-01-2007, 02:06 AM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Without tracking swashie will still be a power house, although not be led right to prey. Without manashield sorcerers will be token vendors. incomparable rly.</blockquote>And.. so the "cake and eat it too" starts.."Nerf them!!!! But.. Don't nerf me.. that wouldn't be fair after all."Pfffft

toenukl

12-01-2007, 02:09 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Without tracking swashie will still be a power house, although not be led right to prey. Without manashield sorcerers will be token vendors. incomparable rly.</blockquote>And.. so the "cake and eat it too" starts.."Nerf them!!!! But.. Don't nerf me.. that wouldn't be fair after all."Pfffft</blockquote>I'm a Fury w/o manashield.... just stating facts about two other classes.And for the record I never said nerf anyone... I suggested other ways.. like giving PvP obtained tracking totems.Same for the Focus Aim nerf. I said it was wrong how it was stealth patched and it should have been toned down instead of completely removed.

Pumancat

12-01-2007, 02:41 AM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm going to raise a little hell over this because if they're confident about this going through and drop a hint like that, then all I can expect is for it to allow an invisible mage, now no longer showing up on track, to get comfortably within range, Chain me, pop Manashield, and nuke the bejesus outta me and mine. </blockquote>Yes, would be totally different from what swashies do now, track Mages, stun/stifle lock them and interrupt everything they try to cast, killing them before they get off one spell.</blockquote>Give me Manashield and I'll trade tracking in a heartbeat.</blockquote>Then stop your whining about losing "easymode " , delete your tracker, and roll up a wizard. Put your money where your mouth is. If you want to claim MS is so OP, then you should be playing the toons with it. All you're actually doing on here is complaining that you can't insta-kill free tokens anymore.STOP YOUR [Removed for Content] AND L2PVP !For the past 2 1/2 years or more, the PVP EQ2 has been referred to as EVERSCOUT because of the distinct advantages of the scout classes over all of the others. Now finally, the Devs are starting to try things to maybe even out the playing field and all I'm seeing is the lame players ( who have been taking these advantages for granted ) whining. While the actual good players that play scouts aren't saying anything.BOOHOO! we can't crit everything in our first macro barrage now.Boohoo! we can't figure out a way to burn out their ONE defence against our attacks. - Manashield is OP lolBooHoo! we can't find them on the map to catch them at their most vulnerable - lose track Either get with the program and L2P without having all the distinct advantages, or just get off the game. It's you lame ( easymode only ) playing [Removed for Content] that are the determent of PVP on here in the first place, and you know it.I've said it before, I haven't met a GOOD swashy yet that hasn't burned through my MS in 15 seconds ( guess that's too long a fight eh? ) or a punk ranger who by always getting the drop on me hasn't started their attack by dropping me to 10 - 15% health before I can even cast anything. So YOU can't say anything to convince me that you're so [Removed for Content] you still not able to kill me in less than 20 seconds. Is that TOO MUCH time to fight? Must be since you're doing so much whining about it. So the conclusion is that you complainers are the [Removed for Content] players who are to lame to actually play and fight even mode, you just want superman toons to roll over everyone else, and that's the bottom line. All we've seen on these kinds of threads are whines from scouts about how bad they got nerfed, well guess what?! in all those nerfings, it was every class!, not just yours. Now finally, we're starting to see some justice, and of course YOU CAN'T TAKE IT! Either put up, or shut up! it's time this got back to EQ2 PVP, NOT Everscout! ( besides, should change the name to Evergank, or Everroll )Nyarlath - 70 wizard / 75 sageAnarcheru - 74 BruiserEither put up, or shut up

Spyderbite

12-01-2007, 03:26 AM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>And for the record I never said nerf anyone... I suggested other ways.. like giving PvP obtained tracking totems.</blockquote>But adding more items is not the solution. Anybody with more than 2 years of MMO experience knows that creating item based solutions to PvP balance is a snowball trip down the side of the hill for PvP in a game.

Spyderbite

12-01-2007, 03:28 AM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So the conclusion is that you complainers are the [Removed for Content] players who are to lame to actually play and fight even mode on my terms for the class that I chose.</blockquote>There.. all fixed.

toenukl

12-01-2007, 03:32 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>And for the record I never said nerf anyone... I suggested other ways.. like giving PvP obtained tracking totems.</blockquote>But adding more items is not the solution. Anybody with more than 2 years of MMO experience knows that creating item based solutions to PvP balance is a snowball trip down the side of the hill for PvP in a game.</blockquote>But, its the only logical way to fix the tracking inbalance, it IS overpowered regardless of the scouts here trying to defend it(lol I would too). Tracking=more targets=faster/more tokens=leet PvP gear made just for PvP=Overpowered.

Spyderbite

12-01-2007, 03:40 AM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>But, its the only logical way to fix the tracking inbalance, it IS overpowered regardless of the scouts here trying to defend it(lol I would too). Tracking=more targets=faster/more tokens=leet PvP gear made just for PvP=Overpowered.</blockquote>But I don't track for targets or tokens and I don't own a single piece of PvP gear. I harvest.. I'm a Scout. Not speaking selfishly.. but just emphasizing.. why add more items to the game so that everyone just wears a "utility belt" of tokens? It just sucks more talent from the game and adds more macros. Eventually, instead of a class choice upon installation.. everyone will just get to cherry pick their basic skills and then run straight to the broker to choose the rest.That's not PvP.. that's Wallet vs. Wallet.. and finally its just about those who have the best MechWarrior suit who will run the servers. We really, really don't want to do that to EQ2.. Been there and bought the tee-shirt.. its the reason I'm here now..

Amphibia

12-01-2007, 05:48 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So the conclusion is that you complainers are the [Removed for Content] players who are to lame to actually play and fight even mode on my terms for the class that I chose.</blockquote>There.. all fixed.</blockquote>Wow, that was a pretty childish way to respond to someone who's opinion differs from your own, but whatever.... You scouts have been used to being the only ones who can always and only fight on your own terms... and now that there is a chance this might change slightly, you all get so worked up. Taear seems to be just about the only scout willing to admit that his class has an edge, and I bet he's good enough to keep up even if the playfield should get a little more even. Have you seen the item Aeralik was talking about? No, of course you haven't, you don't even care about PvP - you just want to harvest in peace, on a PvP server. (I can't understand why this is such a big deal to you if you're not even interested in fame and easy tokens, but that's not the topic here.)Anyway, the effect he was talking about is something simply called "Tracking Avoidance", and gives +5 tracking avoidance. I don't know if that means 5% chance of not getting picked up on track, or just slightly decreased range... but either way, it's not that much, and the item I saw was available only to mages. So you will still pick people up on track, no need to worry. Btw, it is a T8 item - and you're what... level 40 something, was it? Why on earth do you care? Personally I'd rather see a tracking item available to non-scouts than tracking avoidance. We all want more PvP, not less - and the zones are huge. But if that is not an option, then I'll gladly take a little tracking avoidance instead. And to the guy who was complaining about manashield: Is it really that bad? It think the sorcerers need to have this, otherwise they'll just be free tokens again due to spells that take ages to cast and are easy to interrupt. There is a chance you might get killed by them now, and that is how it is supposed to be.

Echgar

12-01-2007, 12:30 PM

Some of the posts here are getting personal and while I see some decent discussion here, I need to remind everyone that if you wish to PvP, take it in-game. On the forums, you are welcome to disagree with each other, but please keep your comments constructive and courteous.

Spyderbite

12-01-2007, 02:17 PM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Wow, that was a pretty childish way to respond to someone who's opinion differs from your own, but whatever.... Sorry if you perceived it that way. I was actually trying to make exactly the same point.(I can't understand why this is such a big deal to you if you're not even interested in fame and easy tokens, but that's not the topic here.)Because.. simply put.. people are only looking at one side of the play style.. and not all sides. Fame should be a non-issue as it shouldn't exist in the first place as it incites such behaivor. But, as you said.. another topic. Tokens. I get plenty of those on my Fury and Bruiser. And, Ironically, they come from scouts who sneak up on me. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyway, the effect he was talking about is something simply called "Tracking Avoidance", and gives +5 tracking avoidance. I don't know if that means 5% chance of not getting picked up on track, or just slightly decreased range... but either way, it's not that much, and the item I saw was available only to mages. So you will still pick people up on track, no need to worry. Btw, it is a T8 item - and you're what... level 40 something, was it? Why on earth do you care? Ok, I didn't see the reference to T8.. my apologies. I'm in no hurry to "end game" so you're right, T8 items do not effect me. And, I have no problem adding items with little effectiveness to the game. My whole point is adding items that completely negate another class' primary skill (see tokens and stealth for example) or removing the class' primary ability all together.Personally I'd rather see a tracking item available to non-scouts than tracking avoidance. We all want more PvP, not less - and the zones are huge. But if that is not an option, then I'll gladly take a little tracking avoidance instead.I have no problem with a "deterrent" but not an item that completely negates Tracking. If there's a 5% chance that I'm not going to pick somebody up on tracking.. that's a chance I take. But, if Tracking becomes like stealth where everyone who equips an item is no longer trackable.. what's the point of the skill.. or the class for that matter anymore?My entire point is that Stealth is already useless. Now Tracking is being targeted. I doubt there are many scouts who created their characters solely for Evac. Heck.. I didn't even realize I had the ability till it appeared in my hot bar one day.</blockquote>

Snowlywhite

12-01-2007, 03:26 PM

what a pile of bull...90% of the ppl. complaining here are from classes which would be picked over a scout(bards aside, but guess you don't complain about bards anyway) in a group situation any day of the week. A group needs one scout for track and that's it. Bar tanks, which are also needed in quantity of 1, rest can hog more then 1 spot.If a class ain't good in groups, then it should be good solo... It's a minimal common sense thing. And don't give me you'd pick a rogue over an enchanter, a warlock or any healer because of pathfinding or smuggle...

Pumancat

12-01-2007, 04:13 PM

The problem is, that tracking gives scouts an obvious unfair advantage, by being able to find and target a player without having that player be in line of sight. whether used for defence or offence, this is clearly the main use of track, to have the ability to pick and choose while other classes cannot. No other toon can target you from half way across the map and come straight to you, or wait till you right on them to evac or run away. I am in agreement that tracking either be toned down to feasible ability ( like just being able to see who in zone, not where exactly ) or taken out completely if that's what devs want to do. As for only needing one scout in group ( to gank solos as most groups do) true, but scouts are able to be group by themselves by using their other abilities to use ( after tracking someone alone) to wait till opportune moment to attack. such as when target is fighting mobs ( which is most often the case ). Point is, If you can't find your target from half way across the map, then you have to rely on your other abilities, which makes the playing field a heck of a lot more balanced.And right now, with RoK gear being mostly for scouts and mages, they still gonna be T1 damage machines, as they meant to be. So even without the distinct advantage of track, who doesn't want a good swashy or brigand, or especially ranger in group?Anarcheru - 74 bruiser

Badaxe Ba

12-01-2007, 04:49 PM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote> The problem is, that tracking gives scouts an obvious unfair advantage, by being able to find and target a player without having that player be in line of sight. whether used for defence or offence, this is clearly the main use of track, to have the ability to pick and choose while other classes cannot. No other toon can target you from half way across the map and come straight to you, or wait till you right on them to evac or run away. I am in agreement that tracking either be toned down to feasible ability ( like just being able to see who in zone, not where exactly ) or taken out completely if that's what devs want to do. As for only needing one scout in group ( to gank solos as most groups do) true, but scouts are able to be group by themselves by using their other abilities to use ( after tracking someone alone) to wait till opportune moment to attack. such as when target is fighting mobs ( which is most often the case ). Point is, If you can't find your target from half way across the map, then you have to rely on your other abilities, which makes the playing field a heck of a lot more balanced.And right now, with RoK gear being mostly for scouts and mages, they still gonna be T1 damage machines, as they meant to be. So even without the distinct advantage of track, who doesn't want a good swashy or brigand, or especially ranger in group?Anarcheru - 74 bruiser</blockquote>Here we go with the exxaggerations again.1. Track cannot tell you who is all in the zone, it has a limited range, and is on a timer for updates.2. Track does not allow you to find your target from halfway across the map, unless said scout has chosen to track you from when you were close enough to him to register, but to do so, the same scout has to close his track window to follow you.3. Attacking a player while they are engaged with a PvE mob is certainly NOT a sole perogative of the scout classes.4. ROK is primarily scout and mage gear??? Boggles! First time I've heard THIS ONE! You mean all that leather gear I see with plus heal amounts is supposed to be for scouts?5. And last but not least, without LOS, targeting someone does absolutely no damage whatsoever. Any player can acquire a target within a certain range, not just scouts. Without LOS and being in range of your classes abilities however pertains to all classes.It boils down to this.If track were removed from the game for PvP, the cons outweigh the pros.Scouts, primarily rangers who only have one group buff spell, would become less desirable in groups, as we are no longer t1 dps in PvP. And don't try to counter this with the 'you still can evac your group' argument, because if thats all we have left, guess who will become the first target in group vs. group? You guessed it, the 'evaccer'.

toenukl

12-01-2007, 04:57 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Scouts, primarily rangers who only have one group buff spell, would become less desirable in groups, as we are no longer t1 dps in PvP. </blockquote>The number one gank squad on Venekor rolls w/ 2/3 rangers and a swashie at all times, thats 3 or 4 scouts, guess they are pretty desirable.<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>as we are no longer t1 dps in PvP. </blockquote>lol

Pumancat

12-01-2007, 05:34 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote> The problem is, that tracking gives scouts an obvious unfair advantage, by being able to find and target a player without having that player be in line of sight. whether used for defence or offence, this is clearly the main use of track, to have the ability to pick and choose while other classes cannot. No other toon can target you from half way across the map and come straight to you, or wait till you right on them to evac or run away. I am in agreement that tracking either be toned down to feasible ability ( like just being able to see who in zone, not where exactly ) or taken out completely if that's what devs want to do. As for only needing one scout in group ( to gank solos as most groups do) true, but scouts are able to be group by themselves by using their other abilities to use ( after tracking someone alone) to wait till opportune moment to attack. such as when target is fighting mobs ( which is most often the case ). Point is, If you can't find your target from half way across the map, then you have to rely on your other abilities, which makes the playing field a heck of a lot more balanced.And right now, with RoK gear being mostly for scouts and mages, they still gonna be T1 damage machines, as they meant to be. So even without the distinct advantage of track, who doesn't want a good swashy or brigand, or especially ranger in group?Anarcheru - 74 bruiser</blockquote>Here we go with the exxaggerations again. Maybe a little exxagerated, but the truth is still there.1. Track cannot tell you who is all in the zone, it has a limited range, and is on a timer for updates. Maybe not the whole zone, but let's not under exxagerate either.2. Track does not allow you to find your target from halfway across the map, unless said scout has chosen to track you from when you were close enough to him to register, but to do so, the same scout has to close his track window to follow you. OK 1/4 of the zone away, and only closes window so he can follow the little glow trail.3. Attacking a player while they are engaged with a PvE mob is certainly NOT a sole perogative of the scout classes. No, but the scout is able through track to pinpoint the other player first, and THAT is the distinct advantage and point we're trying to make.4. ROK is primarily scout and mage gear??? Boggles! First time I've heard THIS ONE! You mean all that leather gear I see with plus heal amounts is supposed to be for scouts? All I've seen from most of the quests rewards are either chain or cloth, since my main is bruiser, I don't tend to look at the class it's for or the stats that I don't get from it.5. And last but not least, without LOS, targeting someone does absolutely no damage whatsoever. Any player can acquire a target within a certain range, not just scouts. Without LOS and being in range of your classes abilities however pertains to all classes. You missed the point, we can't aquire targets unless it is LOS within a certain range, only scout through track can aquire targets without LOS and much larger range. This has been the point of most arguments on this thread is that specific ability ( to target others ) without LOS and the farther range of being able to do such.It boils down to this.If track were removed from the game for PvP, the cons outweigh the pros.Scouts, primarily rangers who only have one group buff spell, would become less desirable in groups, as we are no longer t1 dps in PvP. How the hell are you no longer T1 DPS? cause you can't crit 90% of your CA's and 100% of your auto bow attacks? with your " no risk" abilities. And don't try to counter this with the 'you still can evac your group' argument, because if thats all we have left, guess who will become the first target in group vs. group? You guessed it, the 'evaccer'. So I guess this means you've lost all confidence in your playing ability?Sorry Harry, but if you one of those lame players who can't seem to play beyond your easymode, no risk ranger, relying solely on your easymode ablilities, maybe you just need to find another game and stop trying to be spokesperson for real players on this one.I have had many discussions with good scout players ( usually I'm talking smack to them,,,,lol ) and most of them do agree that scouts do have advantages over other players in PVP, but they are also willing to be nerfed to make the PVP more balanced, and some actually take offence in being associated with the lame scout only players that have to rely on faulty game mechanics or their OP/2 macro abilities to pretend they can PVP.</blockquote> Anarcheru - 74 bruiser Nyarlath - 70 wizard and victim of Harry's ranger lame playing.Venekor server

Gareorn

12-01-2007, 06:09 PM

<cite> Just wasting some time cruising the forums and I came across this little gem. You guys kill me. The mountain dew up the nose stings a little, but this is funny stuff...</cite><cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>2. Track does not allow you to find your target from halfway across the map, unless said scout has chosen to track you from when you were close enough to him to register, but to do so, the same scout has to close his track window to follow you. OK 1/4 of the zone away, and only closes window so he can follow the little glow trail.1/4 of what zone? Willow Wood? Do scouts have better track in PvP? Because in PvE it pretty much stinks.3. Attacking a player while they are engaged with a PvE mob is certainly NOT a sole perogative of the scout classes. No, but the scout is able through track to pinpoint the other player first, and THAT is the distinct advantage and point we're trying to make.Hmmm, a scout being able to track. What a novel idea. Kind of like the word "scout" being a verb meaning "to track." Just exactly what advantage did you think a scout would have over non-scouts? Doesn't each class have advantages and dis-advantages? Why not just have plate wearing wizards that can track, taunt, and feign death? [snip all the complaining about other classes getting gear in RoK, having easy modes, and asking for nerfs to others]</blockquote></blockquote><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Skylissa

12-01-2007, 06:38 PM

Sry guys, I have to agree with the scouts on this one: a.)IMO taking away track from PvP is destroying a class that is good for solo PvP. To me if i wanted to solo PvP there is an option for me to choose a class that is suited for that. Just the same as I wouldnt expect to go out and solo PvP with sum of the other classes. b.) SOE has alrdy made it so we can see there stealth, even if they are tracking you, you should be able to see them before they get to close. ( I am for the most part try to be very well aware of my surroundings when i go out ) c.) I dont understand the aspect of wanting to nerf another class. They already got a hit on stealth twice (with the cant do anything hardly while stealthed ie. examine etc.,among the see stealth totems) now we have to [Removed for Content] there track also? d.) When i first started playing PvP, had no idea on ways to help counter scouts, went on the forums did some research, learned that that nifty auto attack button actually workes for sumthing heh. Instead of trying to nerf classes why not we all put together ways on helping others out to counter certain aspects of these classes that are difficult to be up against. Really track isnt sumthing we can "avoid" , but to me it is something that should be tolerated. And yes, i play a warden and yes i have had my fair share of getting my [Removed for Content] handed to me by scouts. It's PvP, to me its how the class is meant to be, frustrating at times yes, but tracking to me is a very small issue.

convict

12-01-2007, 08:21 PM

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> Just wasting some time cruising the forums and I came across this little gem. You guys kill me. The mountain dew up the nose stings a little, but this is funny stuff...</cite><cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>2. Track does not allow you to find your target from halfway across the map, unless said scout has chosen to track you from when you were close enough to him to register, but to do so, the same scout has to close his track window to follow you. OK 1/4 of the zone away, and only closes window so he can follow the little glow trail.1/4 of what zone? Willow Wood? Do scouts have better track in PvP? Because in PvE it pretty much stinks.3. Attacking a player while they are engaged with a PvE mob is certainly NOT a sole perogative of the scout classes. No, but the scout is able through track to pinpoint the other player first, and THAT is the distinct advantage and point we're trying to make.Hmmm, a scout being able to track. What a novel idea. Kind of like the word "scout" being a verb meaning "to track." Just exactly what advantage did you think a scout would have over non-scouts? Doesn't each class have advantages and dis-advantages? Why not just have plate wearing wizards that can track, taunt, and feign death? [snip all the complaining about other classes getting gear in RoK, having easy modes, and asking for nerfs to others]</blockquote></blockquote><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Theres a difference between tracking, and radar. I notice of all the tracking discussions no scouts ever answer this. If your "tracking"/"scouting" me, how do you know what level I am? How do you know what faction I am?

Badaxe Ba

12-01-2007, 09:06 PM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote> The problem is, that tracking gives scouts an obvious unfair advantage, by being able to find and target a player without having that player be in line of sight. whether used for defence or offence, this is clearly the main use of track, to have the ability to pick and choose while other classes cannot. No other toon can target you from half way across the map and come straight to you, or wait till you right on them to evac or run away. I am in agreement that tracking either be toned down to feasible ability ( like just being able to see who in zone, not where exactly ) or taken out completely if that's what devs want to do. As for only needing one scout in group ( to gank solos as most groups do) true, but scouts are able to be group by themselves by using their other abilities to use ( after tracking someone alone) to wait till opportune moment to attack. such as when target is fighting mobs ( which is most often the case ). Point is, If you can't find your target from half way across the map, then you have to rely on your other abilities, which makes the playing field a heck of a lot more balanced.And right now, with RoK gear being mostly for scouts and mages, they still gonna be T1 damage machines, as they meant to be. So even without the distinct advantage of track, who doesn't want a good swashy or brigand, or especially ranger in group?Anarcheru - 74 bruiser</blockquote>Here we go with the exxaggerations again. Maybe a little exxagerated, but the truth is still there. Its why I listed the truths about tracking below.1. Track cannot tell you who is all in the zone, it has a limited range, and is on a timer for updates. Maybe not the whole zone, but let's not under exxagerate either. What exactly did I underexxaggerate? These are the facts.2. Track does not allow you to find your target from halfway across the map, unless said scout has chosen to track you from when you were close enough to him to register, but to do so, the same scout has to close his track window to follow you. OK 1/4 of the zone away, and only closes window so he can follow the little glow trail. Even the glow trail is subject to an updating timer. It works best against a stationary target, and it DOES NOT grant you magical LOS.3. Attacking a player while they are engaged with a PvE mob is certainly NOT a sole perogative of the scout classes. No, but the scout is able through track to pinpoint the other player first, and THAT is the distinct advantage and point we're trying to make. See counterpoint #2.4. ROK is primarily scout and mage gear??? Boggles! First time I've heard THIS ONE! You mean all that leather gear I see with plus heal amounts is supposed to be for scouts? All I've seen from most of the quests rewards are either chain or cloth, since my main is bruiser, I don't tend to look at the class it's for or the stats that I don't get from it. This still doesn't mean that it is primarily for scouts and mages.5. And last but not least, without LOS, targeting someone does absolutely no damage whatsoever. Any player can acquire a target within a certain range, not just scouts. Without LOS and being in range of your classes abilities however pertains to all classes. You missed the point, we can't aquire targets unless it is LOS within a certain range, only scout through track can aquire targets without LOS and much larger range. This has been the point of most arguments on this thread is that specific ability ( to target others ) without LOS and the farther range of being able to do such. Scouts are subject to the same distance limitations for combat that are in place on all classes. We cannot start combat without first acquiring LOS. Every single CA in the game has distance limitations. If we get LOS, please remember that we are now in your LOS as well. If you feel that your class needs greater range on your CA's that would be a better thing to ask for than a nerf on an ability that doesn't grant any extension to combat range.It boils down to this.If track were removed from the game for PvP, the cons outweigh the pros.Scouts, primarily rangers who only have one group buff spell, would become less desirable in groups, as we are no longer t1 dps in PvP. How the hell are you no longer T1 DPS? cause you can't crit 90% of your CA's and 100% of your auto bow attacks? with your " no risk" abilities. And don't try to counter this with the 'you still can evac your group' argument, because if thats all we have left, guess who will become the first target in group vs. group? You guessed it, the 'evaccer'. So I guess this means you've lost all confidence in your playing ability? I'm trying to argue using logic and facts. I'm not sure why you are changing the subject to whether I have confidence in playing a ranger or not.Sorry Harry, but if you one of those lame players who can't seem to play beyond your easymode, no risk ranger, relying solely on your easymode ablilities, maybe you just need to find another game and stop trying to be spokesperson for real players on this one.I have had many discussions with good scout players ( usually I'm talking smack to them,,,,lol ) and most of them do agree that scouts do have advantages over other players in PVP, but they are also willing to be nerfed to make the PVP more balanced, and some actually take offence in being associated with the lame scout only players that have to rely on faulty game mechanics or their OP/2 macro abilities to pretend they can PVP.</blockquote> Anarcheru - 74 bruiser Nyarlath - 70 wizard and victim of Harry's <strike>ranger lame playing</strike>.I assume you meant lame ranger playing.Venekor server</blockquote>Please take the time to look at my poor cheap basic sig below. Just like track, it is subject to SOE update schedules, but it is pretty accurate atm.Specifically, you should note that I have been in over 4000 pvp encounters. To be honest, I could care less about the KvD, or whether fame is involved, but I know I'm not the best nor the worst. I don't have the highest count or the lowest. I'm about average, maybe. This isn't about me, its about a class ability. I can say I don't want any more twisted tales to result in more nerfs to my class. I will plead guilty to that.

Gareorn

12-01-2007, 09:44 PM

<cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> Just wasting some time cruising the forums and I came across this little gem. You guys kill me. The mountain dew up the nose stings a little, but this is funny stuff...</cite><cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>2. Track does not allow you to find your target from halfway across the map, unless said scout has chosen to track you from when you were close enough to him to register, but to do so, the same scout has to close his track window to follow you. OK 1/4 of the zone away, and only closes window so he can follow the little glow trail.1/4 of what zone? Willow Wood? Do scouts have better track in PvP? Because in PvE it pretty much stinks.3. Attacking a player while they are engaged with a PvE mob is certainly NOT a sole perogative of the scout classes. No, but the scout is able through track to pinpoint the other player first, and THAT is the distinct advantage and point we're trying to make.Hmmm, a scout being able to track. What a novel idea. Kind of like the word "scout" being a verb meaning "to track." Just exactly what advantage did you think a scout would have over non-scouts? Doesn't each class have advantages and dis-advantages? Why not just have plate wearing wizards that can track, taunt, and feign death? [snip all the complaining about other classes getting gear in RoK, having easy modes, and asking for nerfs to others]</blockquote></blockquote><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Theres a difference between tracking, and radar. I notice of all the tracking discussions no scouts ever answer this. If your "tracking"/"scouting" me, how do you know what level I am? How do you know what faction I am?</blockquote>You're saying that the tracking ability of scouts in EQ2 is like radar compared to the tracking ability of scouts in the other MMO's on the market? Hardley. As a matter of fact, EQ2 tracking is the gimpiest of all the MMO's I've ever played. Slice it anyway you want, you're still asking to have other classes' primary PvP abilities to be rendered useless. The same abilities you knew they had when you chose which class to play.There is no way you are going to convince me you didn't know scouts could track or that you didn't know how tracking generally works in MMORPGs when you rolled your PvP character. Besides, it's much more fun figuring out how to defeat an opponent's advantages and making the most of one's disadvantages. Asking to have other classes nerfed seems a bit lazy.

Memmoch

12-02-2007, 05:20 AM

Oh man, remove pvp track all together! Do that and every non-scout in this game will forgive you for the seriously [Removed for Content] things you guys do (like making cure's so priest classes can only cure once every 10 seconds).Ok, maybe not forgive you but it would for sure be a step in the right direction to earning redemption for some of the rules/items you guys put in game!

Gareorn

12-02-2007, 01:34 PM

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I actually LOL when i see the scouts here crying.Now you might be (gosh) more in line with other classes? Stop your snivelling.</blockquote>Wow... Just wow! An entire thread devoted to a handfull of people who don't play a scout class complaining about how scouts are over powered because they can "track" and you think it's the scouts who are crying? You might take your own advice about that sniveling thing.

Echgar

12-02-2007, 01:56 PM

Let's try and be a bit more constructive here folks. I understand being adversarial is in the nature of PvP, but save PvP for in-game. On the forums, you are welcome to disagree with each other, but please be constructive and courteous.Antagonizing each other with talk of crying, whining, or similar really isn't necessary to make your point. If your point is to antagonize each other, take it somewhere other than the official forums please.

Memmoch

12-02-2007, 03:21 PM

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let's try and be a bit more constructive here folks. I understand being adversarial is in the nature of PvP, but save PvP for in-game. On the forums, you are welcome to disagree with each other, but please be constructive and courteous.Antagonizing each other with talk of crying, whining, or similar really isn't necessary to make your point. If your point is to antagonize each other, take it somewhere other than the official forums please.</blockquote>Ya, only time I use these forums is if I see a post that I think the dev's need to really pay attention to. Then I'll post my opinion on it..cause you know my opinion matters!90% of the time though for any forum fun this isn't the place to be. Look for eq2flames naggy forum for the real eq2 forum.

voxranger

12-03-2007, 12:56 PM

Hmmm.As a ranger, i lost my ability to deliver class defining dps for pvp with the nerfs to focus aim etc.Ranged ca's are neither excessively slow nor lightning fast. There is plenty of time to be spotted.I can't tell the skill of the player from track, only the con (i have had more success pvp'ing yellow and orange con players who are titled similar to me and have had my butt handed to me by blue and green con twinked toons). My melee arts are for the most part, weak.Kiting is much more difficult than it used to be - stun feels weaker and snares feel weaker also.I can't heal myself.I can't one shot an even con.I have no mana shield.I cant take damage worth a crap (i have all mastercrafted and leg. gear).Everyone has totems to see me, so the stealth thing is not that big of deal.My point is this: every class has strengths and weaknesses. Scouts track - thats what we do and its definately helpful for pvp and group pve stuff. On the other hand, we (meaning rangers) are the red headed step children in raids because we bring no buffs to the group and are out dps'd by casters. Truthfully, i have probably seen more high titled druids on the server (vox) than any other class, and I'm not asking for them to be nerfed. It just depends on what kind of content and play style you like to play. I wish everyone would stop calling for nerfs of other classes just becuase one class or another has an advantage some others. Pick the content you are inclined to enjoy, and select a character that best suits it while realizing your strengths are going to present you with greater challenges in other areas. If you don't like pvp, then go to a non-pvp server where track, self heal, mana sheild, taunt etc are not a problem.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />P.S. sorry for the typos, etc

Pumancat

12-03-2007, 03:39 PM

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm.As a ranger, i lost my ability to deliver class defining dps for pvp with the nerfs to focus aim etc. But still able to bring most toons to 15% or less health in 5 seconds.Ranged ca's are neither excessively slow nor lightning fast. There is plenty of time to be spotted. Did they nerf the instant casting? or do you still have them macro'd to 2 buttons?I can't tell the skill of the player from track, only the con (i have had more success pvp'ing yellow and orange con players who are titled similar to me and have had my butt handed to me by blue and green con twinked toons). Must be doing something wrong on your end. Maybe wrong AAs or lousy gear.My melee arts are for the most part, weak. Your stregnths are in your ranged attacks, but melee is enough to give you time enough for your ranged CAs to recharge.Kiting is much more difficult than it used to be - stun feels weaker and snares feel weaker also. Who says you're supposed to be able to kite?I can't heal myself. Use potions, like all other non-healing classesI can't one shot an even con. Were you under the impression you're supposed to?I have no mana shield. You have speed, stealth, tracking, and poisons to get get them before they have the chance to cast MS.I cant take damage worth a crap (i have all mastercrafted and leg. gear). Get your custom PVP gear like all the other rangersEveryone has totems to see me, so the stealth thing is not that big of deal. Not when you use it to wait and sneak attack while they're fighting mobs.My point is this: every class has strengths and weaknesses. Scouts track - thats what we do and its definately helpful for pvp and group pve stuff. On the other hand, we (meaning rangers) are the red headed step children in raids because we bring no buffs to the group and are out dps'd by casters. I do believe track is a vital utility for PVE, but for PVP it is an unfair advantage on a game of player competition. All DPS is good for raids, like said, check your gear or AA lines to see if you're maxing your output.Truthfully, i have probably seen more high titled druids on the server (vox) than any other class, and I'm not asking for them to be nerfed. Well first, look at the server you're on, second RoK seems to have been made for druids with gear and such, SO FAR ( wait for updates to even things out more )It just depends on what kind of content and play style you like to play. I wish everyone would stop calling for nerfs of other classes just becuase one class or another has an advantage some others. No comment on your serverPick the content you are inclined to enjoy, and select a character that best suits it while realizing your strengths are going to present you with greater challenges in other areas. That was/is the problem with rangers, they had no challenge to their class in PVP. Their ability to 1 shot ( meaning 1 macro button) to do enough dmg and effects to kill clothies in 2 seconds, from a farther range than a mage can cast.If you don't like pvp, then go to a non-pvp server where track, self heal, mana sheild, taunt etc are not a problem.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />P.S. sorry for the typos, etc</blockquote> Sorry to pop this bubble, but playing on Vox is not the best example of the real issues of PVP. No offence intended, but VoX in not highly considered as it's an exchange server, not real work for your toon kind.My suggestion is to talk to someone on Naggy for advise on how to be a better ranger ( or lame player IMO ).You'll notice a big difference I'm sure.Anarcheru - 75 bruiserNyarlath - 71 wizardVenekor server

KannaWhoopass

12-03-2007, 04:20 PM

Allow me to tell you why there is so much stink about track. Because it isnt tracking. Ill give you the only example yo need to see why the abiliity blows. A ranger flies over on a bird in jarsath Wastes. He locks me on his track . Now untill i zone or log out .. im on his map . I can run all of the way across the map. run thru lava flows rivers lakes .. take birds. It wont matter he has me locked on his map and watches me run arround the map. He is using cat totems , so he is tiny , he is stealthed . and can now hide behind small rocks or shrubs. He will now follow me arround endlessly waiting till i engage a fight witha mob and my health is at 60% The 2 shot me from behind. I cant see him even with totems becasue he is in cat or snake form and can hide behind small terrain objects. he flew over my head ona mout immune from danger .. saw my name flash across his window . Jumped off in stealth and waited till my little X on his map stoped moving (Im fighting) ..then walked up to collet his free token ...... Geeee wonder why scout are in full PvP gear ... months before everyone else. The skill needs looking at ... Witht he expansion and massive overland zones .. Tracking + high run speed + snare + stealth = Uber To the ranger above you are not the read headed step child. All of the non scout classes are. Untill you can counter tracking .. or get your little X off some scouts window who sits at the zone in .. tracking people to arrive to the zone and tell the gank squad of his friends where you are till they kill you ... its bogus

Raidyen

12-03-2007, 04:22 PM

Personaly i have already tossed out my 72 swashy, and have moved on to other classes. Ones i know wont be getting hit by the nerf bat everytime i turn around. I find it rediculous the attacks on the scout classes and thier abilities. My wife plays a 72 fury, we are equally geared, and she can destroy people in pvp that i don't last more then a couple seconds against. Yet people can do nothing but yell for scout nerfs. Stealth is already out the window, our DPS has been nerfed now to the point where we can only attack people in the right situations if we want to have any chance. And now take track out so we just become weak fighters. Well atleast we still have evac so we can run away every 15 minutes from a pvp fight. Coarse that will get nerfed next.

MaCloud1032

12-03-2007, 04:35 PM

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're saying that the tracking ability of scouts in EQ2 is like radar compared to the tracking ability of scouts in the other MMO's on the market? Hardley. As a matter of fact, EQ2 tracking is the gimpiest of all the MMO's I've ever played. Slice it anyway you want, you're still asking to have other classes' primary PvP abilities to be rendered useless. The same abilities you knew they had when you chose which class to play.There is no way you are going to convince me you didn't know scouts could track or that you didn't know how tracking generally works in MMORPGs when you rolled your PvP character. Besides, it's much more fun figuring out how to defeat an opponent's advantages and making the most of one's disadvantages. Asking to have other classes nerfed seems a bit lazy.</blockquote>Actualy when i made my toon i had no idea what scouts had for skills abilities. I had never played EQ2 other than the lv 7 toon i had used a trial for. Darksavanna is my only real toon i have some alts in the 20s but iam easly boared with alts and dont play them.To assume that everyone had a PvE toon before PvP is a bit redundent. A warlock tought me how to tank.

Snowlywhite

12-03-2007, 04:38 PM

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote>Allow me to tell you why there is so much stink about track. Because it isnt tracking. Ill give you the only example yo need to see why the abiliity blows. A ranger flies over on a bird in jarsath Wastes. He locks me on his track . Now untill i zone or log out .. im on his map . I can run all of the way across the map. run thru lava flows rivers lakes .. take birds. It wont matter he has me locked on his map and watches me run arround the map. He is using cat totems , so he is tiny , he is stealthed . and can now hide behind small rocks or shrubs. He will now follow me arround endlessly waiting till i engage a fight witha mob and my health is at 60% The 2 shot me from behind. I cant see him even with totems becasue he is in cat or snake form and can hide behind small terrain objects. he flew over my head ona mout immune from danger .. saw my name flash across his window . Jumped off in stealth and waited till my little X on his map stoped moving (Im fighting) ..then walked up to collet his free token ...... Geeee wonder why scout are in full PvP gear ... months before everyone else. The skill needs looking at ... Witht he expansion and massive overland zones .. Tracking + high run speed + snare + stealth = Uber To the ranger above you are not the read headed step child. All of the non scout classes are. Untill you can counter tracking .. or get your little X off some scouts window who sits at the zone in .. tracking people to arrive to the zone and tell the gank squad of his friends where you are till they kill you ... its bogus</blockquote>1. locking on you for more then a couple of secs. means he can't track anything else for that long; noone in his right mind would do that... it's just a nice story of yours. And if he does that, he'll probably die alot; rightfully so. You see where he is, you close track.In all the games I've played, I had a character which had track... heck, even in wow I had a hunter, even though they sucked so bad... Information is the key they say... and I fully agree. And no, that doesn't mean track is op. - I was being accused of wall hacks and kicked from cs servers just because I had the brains to watch the radar... most ppl. are clueless in what to do with information in the 1st place.This is by far the worst track ability in any mmo. which has implemented a tracking ability. You can track precisely one player, you have to bare with a darn big map splashed all over your screen if you want to see where the guy is, it updates once every... an eternity(the guy gets out of instance, runs past me, I jump him, take him to orange when he shows up on track - and no, doesn't mean scouts are op., means he just had a rag tag gear if he went on orange in 3 hits tbh).2. I fail to see how he can see you from half the map that you're engaged. And if he waited to see the small x to stop moving, chances are that, till he's sure that the buggy thing is updated, starts moving and reaches the place where you are, you're already done fighting and even back to full hp... I mean, really, do you ppl. believe what you come up with?

Urgol

12-03-2007, 04:39 PM

Well, track removal will be fine for all classes BUT ranger because lack of long-range enemy detection completely eliminates pvp for rangers when they can't get jump on you and kill you in 2 seconds or use their almost-100%-sprint to run away from you every time you manage to get closer than 50m to them. Oh, wait, track removal is gonna fix ALL issues with rangerclass in pvp?

Bloodfa

12-03-2007, 05:20 PM

Pumancat, I also have a Wizard (surprise, surprise), a Monk, and a Warden. I like the classes. My Swash was rolled after me and my friends got our [Removed for Content] handed to us over a period of a month, the first month (how many here remember that first Nagafen month?), when Wardens weren't a solid class yet. Of course that's when certain other evil aligned classes were ... bugged. I grew to enjoy playing a Swashbuckler quite a bit, ended up deleting the original Warden and rerolling. I'd love to get my Warden up to T8, but when friends need somebody in a group for DPS, I go, meaning my Warden is taking a painful, extremely long time to level up. Sue me. Warlocks are the OP flavor of the month right now. Every group I've run into lately has 2 Warlocks and 2 Druids in it, with either SK's, Brigs or Zerkers filling up the last 2 slots. Cookie-cutter. But extremely effective, as two Rifts and a couple of massive AOE dots can drop a group rather soundly. I've responded politely to you, please show the same courtesy and skip the L2P comments.Tracking does not cover a zone. Not even half. In fact, if you're at the forge by the docks, the tracking ends a bit past where the Freeps revive/evac to, but not as far as the castle. It's not Radar in that sense. And when names show up, they're the same con as friendlies; at closer range they change color. Try rolling a scout if you're convinced otherwise, and you'll see. It updates once per tick. A lot can change in 6 seconds. That orange-con group you're chasing suddenly turns into 2 and a half groups ... and it's the visuals rather than tracking that lets you know half the time. People wanting to tweak it, fine, I can understand that, and there have been some good suggestions made as to how. But something to completely counter it ... I'll take my new Pendant of Rift Warding to counterbalance it. For what it's worth, my PC's pretty good. With dual cards in SLI and 4 gigs of ram, I have rendering set at max distance, and get to look at the game with most of the bells & whistles cranked. I can still pick out most targets that are at the edge of or beyond reliable tracking range, meaning the path closest to the Sokokar post out to just about the first big tree by the Drachnids. Most of the other players I know don't have that sort of visual range for their game. Meaning I'll probably be affected by it less than what I expect is the majority on both sides. Doesn't mean I want to see it happen. Personally, I like the idea of negating it during flight; that works on everybody both ways, and that could increase PvP at or near the bird posts.

Armironhead

12-03-2007, 05:44 PM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm.As a ranger, i lost my ability to deliver class defining dps for pvp with the nerfs to focus aim etc. But still able to bring most toons to 15% or less health in 5 seconds.Ranged ca's are neither excessively slow nor lightning fast. There is plenty of time to be spotted. Did they nerf the instant casting? or do you still have them macro'd to 2 buttons?I can't tell the skill of the player from track, only the con (i have had more success pvp'ing yellow and orange con players who are titled similar to me and have had my butt handed to me by blue and green con twinked toons). Must be doing something wrong on your end. Maybe wrong AAs or lousy gear.My melee arts are for the most part, weak. Your stregnths are in your ranged attacks, but melee is enough to give you time enough for your ranged CAs to recharge.Kiting is much more difficult than it used to be - stun feels weaker and snares feel weaker also. Who says you're supposed to be able to kite?I can't heal myself. Use potions, like all other non-healing classesI can't one shot an even con. Were you under the impression you're supposed to?I have no mana shield. You have speed, stealth, tracking, and poisons to get get them before they have the chance to cast MS.I cant take damage worth a crap (i have all mastercrafted and leg. gear). Get your custom PVP gear like all the other rangersEveryone has totems to see me, so the stealth thing is not that big of deal. Not when you use it to wait and sneak attack while they're fighting mobs.My point is this: every class has strengths and weaknesses. Scouts track - thats what we do and its definately helpful for pvp and group pve stuff. On the other hand, we (meaning rangers) are the red headed step children in raids because we bring no buffs to the group and are out dps'd by casters. I do believe track is a vital utility for PVE, but for PVP it is an unfair advantage on a game of player competition. All DPS is good for raids, like said, check your gear or AA lines to see if you're maxing your output.Truthfully, i have probably seen more high titled druids on the server (vox) than any other class, and I'm not asking for them to be nerfed. Well first, look at the server you're on, second RoK seems to have been made for druids with gear and such, SO FAR ( wait for updates to even things out more )It just depends on what kind of content and play style you like to play. I wish everyone would stop calling for nerfs of other classes just becuase one class or another has an advantage some others. No comment on your serverPick the content you are inclined to enjoy, and select a character that best suits it while realizing your strengths are going to present you with greater challenges in other areas. That was/is the problem with rangers, they had no challenge to their class in PVP. Their ability to 1 shot ( meaning 1 macro button) to do enough dmg and effects to kill clothies in 2 seconds, from a farther range than a mage can cast.If you don't like pvp, then go to a non-pvp server where track, self heal, mana sheild, taunt etc are not a problem.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />P.S. sorry for the typos, etc</blockquote> Sorry to pop this bubble, but playing on Vox is not the best example of the real issues of PVP. No offence intended, but VoX in not highly considered as it's an exchange server, not real work for your toon kind.My suggestion is to talk to someone on Naggy for advise on how to be a better ranger ( or lame player IMO ).You'll notice a big difference I'm sure.Anarcheru - 75 bruiserNyarlath - 71 wizardVenekor server</blockquote>Please -- I dont understand your need to dis vox in a thread about track. Regardless you do not know what your talking about. SE doesnt have a single thing to do with the quality of the players in pvp. Vox has its fair share of outstanding pvp players. If you don't believe me, leave that wasteland you call venekor and come buy on a toon on vox and will see how you do.

Roald

12-03-2007, 06:57 PM

<cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I actually LOL when i see the scouts here crying.Now you might be (gosh) more in line with other classes? Stop your snivelling.</blockquote>Wow... Just wow! An entire thread devoted to a handfull of people who don't play a scout class complaining about how scouts are over powered because they can "track" and you think it's the scouts who are crying? You might take your own advice about that sniveling thing.</blockquote>I played a ranger up to T6, and apart from breathing, it was probably the easiest thing i've ever done. Don't insult in ignorance.

Gareorn

12-03-2007, 08:02 PM

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gareorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I actually LOL when i see the scouts here crying.Now you might be (gosh) more in line with other classes? Stop your snivelling.</blockquote>Wow... Just wow! An entire thread devoted to a handfull of people who don't play a scout class complaining about how scouts are over powered because they can "track" and you think it's the scouts who are crying? You might take your own advice about that sniveling thing.</blockquote>I played a ranger up to T6, and apart from breathing, it was probably the easiest thing i've ever done. Don't insult in ignorance.</blockquote>Like everyone else that calls for nerfs to other classes. This is all you have to work with... Another unwarranted attack while providing nothing to the discussion. Not surprised at all. Call me when you have something to add.

Jaggid

12-03-2007, 08:50 PM

You take away tracking, you better give all those SCOUTS something to make then scouts. Personally I would like to see them remove friendly toons from tracking so only the enemy show up.

Jaydawarlord

12-03-2007, 11:24 PM

*sigh*Track it what we do. Why do people have such a big fit over scouts being scouts. When I go play FPS games, no one complains about snipers (essentially scouts) having radar equipment... I don't hear people on WoW complaining as much about hunters having track abilities... If your a tank then your job is taking damage, but I want you nerfed because it is hard for me to kill you quickly becuase of your mitigation.... Sounds dumb, right? That is exactly what I am hearing from this thread. Casters can manashield and nuke me to death without me ever being to able to scratch them... Same thing as what I'm reading. Healers can outheal my damage rating... Guess what, same thing. Spend the time you spend complaining on these forums and go work on your pvp strategies if you want to win against better players.

-Arctura-

12-03-2007, 11:31 PM

(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!90% of you anti-scout petitioners have a VERY distorted idea on what tracking is like these days.You all think its like the old days of huge track range and super uber powerful tracking screen of many features.(PS. before i start, let me just say i like track as is. Im not complaining, just clarifying)Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target.Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).And when we are tracking one person, you think the scout is a super stealthy deathmachine. Well guess whatWhen the scout is TrackING someone, their track window is closed, and they are blind to the world. Think about that, and use it to your advantage. You can only have your track window open to see proximity targets, or track a single target, and lose the proximity targets list. Not both.Its really, really not as powerful as y'all think it isThis thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarcSeriously, roll a scout, get them to level 50. By then you should have a SOLID understanding of the 'overpoweredness' that is Track. (/extreme sarcasm)<img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/DarkShadow2ONEXX--------------.gif" border="0" alt="" />

toenukl

12-03-2007, 11:43 PM

If tracking sucks so bad and is not useful at all, as many scouts have said in this thread, then why do you care SOO much if a track based item that costs status and/or tokens is added to the game for non-scout classes?

toenukl

12-03-2007, 11:45 PM

<cite>Jaydawarlord wrote:</cite><blockquote>*sigh*Track it what we do. Why do people have such a big fit over scouts being scouts. When I go play FPS games, no one complains about snipers (essentially scouts) having radar equipment... I don't hear people on WoW complaining as much about hunters having track abilities... If your a tank then your job is taking damage, but I want you nerfed because it is hard for me to kill you quickly becuase of your mitigation.... Sounds dumb, right? That is exactly what I am hearing from this thread. Casters can manashield and nuke me to death without me ever being to able to scratch them... Same thing as what I'm reading. Healers can outheal my damage rating... Guess what, same thing. Spend the time you spend complaining on these forums and go work on your pvp strategies if you want to win against better players.</blockquote>However, those games don't have PvP gear that is purchased using tokens, that you get from killing PvP targets. Tracking classes have it waaaay easier to find targets and get tokens. Take away token system and this thread would have never existed.Edited to add** IMO, token system should be scrapped, PvP titles should be redone to reflect total kills on a decay system(making it very very hard to reach higher titles) and PvP gear purchased only when you obtain that title. Still leaves it a tad easier for trackers, but should avoid calls for nerfs. Also, tokens encourage you to roll solo, since you get the token no matter what, in groups tokens are very hard to actually obtain. Total kills would be great for groups, as everyone would get credit for the kill, as opposed to only one person in group winning tokens.

Badaxe Ba

12-04-2007, 12:05 AM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If tracking sucks so bad and is not useful at all, as many scouts have said in this thread, then why do you care SOO much if a track based item that costs status and/or tokens is added to the game for non-scout classes?</blockquote>Actually, as a ranger/scout, I have no problem with an item being added that reduces track.Its all the other people saying remove track that I have a disagreement with.

toenukl

12-04-2007, 12:56 AM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If tracking sucks so bad and is not useful at all, as many scouts have said in this thread, then why do you care SOO much if a track based item that costs status and/or tokens is added to the game for non-scout classes?</blockquote>Actually, as a ranger/scout, I have no problem with an item being added that reduces track.Its all the other people saying remove track that I have a disagreement with.</blockquote>Nice! I agree with a Ranger <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Removing track would make PvP hard to find, giving not so easy to obtain track range reducer and/or tracking totem would be best solution.

Kinox

12-04-2007, 01:04 AM

Well, i played a necro for a year and a half before i rolled a trouby and lvl'd him to 70. Now whenever i get on my necro i feel blind Because i dont know who's near me. So i'll say that track DOES make a difference in pvp. Anyone who says track is useless nowadays is a [Removed for Content] liar or isn't using it effectively. However, its not the uber, "I win because i have this ability" that everyone says it is. Its something that scouts get that improves their usefulness in a group setting and helps them avoid dying while solo. Maybe thats too much of an advantage for some of you, but to me (im a caster at heart tbh) i dont feel that track gives scouts an advantage over me in pvp. If their was an item that you could buy that gave you track, i'd be ok with that, but i dont think i myself would get it for my necro. Now if you wanna discuss the fact that preds/rouges can kill you in less time than it takes for you to save yourself, then by all means make a thread about that (or reply to the hundreds that already exist) but dont [Removed for Content] about track because other classes have things that are just as useful (except summoners but thats a different topic)

Dh

12-04-2007, 02:56 AM

I have played 2 scouts to 70 on PVP and now play a 77 warlock. I also have a 47 ranger and 58 swash. I am also mainly a solo player or only have 1-2 people with me. I would rather see tracking PCs removed on PVP servers instead of giving everyone a track item. If tracking PCs was removed along with can't revive while group members are in pvp combat and no fame loss on death, this would be the perfect game.

Spyderbite

12-04-2007, 03:18 AM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If tracking sucks so bad and is not useful at all, as many scouts have said in this thread, then why do you care SOO much if a track based item that costs status and/or tokens is added to the game for non-scout classes?</blockquote>Hate to bring up 3rd party programs or exploits.. but, the reason its brought up is that Scouts who play by the rules are not the fail-safe hunters that we're made out to be.If tracking were removed all together.. I guarantee there would still be people hunting people down and killing them by other means. And, I don't mean "line of sight".A great example of what the person you were replying to was trying to disclose... I was in SS tonight and I happened to turn around and mouse over an orange standing right above me on a dune, inside of my attack range. He did not appear in my Tracking window. Then maybe 15 or 20 seconds later.. poof.. orange in my tracking window.This is hardly a tool if we have to kiss them on the cheek first to determine where they are at. I guarantee that those "lethal & unescapable" scouts out there are not relying on the tracking window alone. Thus, nerfing the tracking ability is not going to solve anyone's problem.

Amphibia

12-04-2007, 06:49 AM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!90% of you anti-scout petitioners have a VERY distorted idea on what tracking is like these days.You all think its like the old days of huge track range and super uber powerful tracking screen of many features.(PS. before i start, let me just say i like track as is. Im not complaining, just clarifying)Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.No, you won't die. Because all you need to do is press: <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/evac.jpg" border="0" alt="" />(That must be very difficult.)There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target. Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).And when we are tracking one person, you think the scout is a super stealthy deathmachine. Well guess whatWhen the scout is TrackING someone, their track window is closed, and they are blind to the world. Think about that, and use it to your advantage. You can only have your track window open to see proximity targets, or track a single target, and lose the proximity targets list. Not both.Its really, really not as powerful as y'all think it isWell, if you need an update on who else is nearby, you just open the window again to check, then continue to follow the HUGE BIG GOLDEN TRAIL to your target. You even get a giant X on your map that shows your target's exact location when you start tracking someone.This thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarcSeriously, roll a scout, get them to level 50. By then you should have a SOLID understanding of the 'overpoweredness' that is Track. (/extreme sarcasm)I do have a scout. Granted, the level is a little lower than 50 - but track is an amazing tool to find targets. When I play that character, I always know who is nearby, their con and ca. how far away they are. If I don't see their con, they are either Qs or very far away. A quick /who (which I have macroed) will reveal that information as well. Basically, the track window tells me everything I need to know. If I don't want to die, I never have to as a scout. I only die when: A) I lose a fight I choose to engage in or B) I get too impatient to wait for my 15 min (!) recast evac to refresh. </blockquote>But you can keep your track for all I care, to be honest. It does have a function, and I'm sure it also leads to more PvP in these huge zones. It also make scouts more valuable in groups, which is a good thing. So far so good, but...The ability to track is a very powerful tool that should NEVER have been combined with evac. Nobody should be able to pick and choose their battles that easily.It's also a pity with the token system, because it encourages scouts to ditch the groups and just go out alone instead. That way they don't have to share their tokens with anyone, and most scouts are more than capable of racking up tons of kills on their own. That is why scouts will be the first ones to get a full set of PvP gear this time around, too - long before everyone else. Many classes are actually much better off raiding for their gear than hoping to ever get it through PvP.

Roald

12-04-2007, 07:22 AM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target.Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).This thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarc</blockquote>Last time I opened up a track window (I think it was sunday) I could find a target, click to track and open my map to find him as much as about 100m away. I have tracked on 4 differnt scouts, and it has always been very powerful. I've also been able to follow the same 1 cross for 10minutes+.When scouts need to start lying to make a point, you know the argument is won.

voxranger

12-04-2007, 08:16 AM

I think you were missing the whole point of my posted reply.No, i am not the best ranger when it comes to pvp or otherwise.No, I do not play on Naggy, but I can also remember when you could walk 6 feet in vox without running into a larger group of gankers.No, i do not wear pvp gear - I actually like a mix of content so vox suits me fine there. I can pve without being constantly harrassed, or, I can pvp when I want to. Yes Vox is an exchange server, and who gives a crap, just means its easier to twink your toon.Yes I have often been killed (even one-shoted) by pvp while engaged on a mob....Etc, Etc, EtcThe point I was trying to make is every class as a distinct and decided advantage over others, and some of those advantages lend themselves better to pvp and some lend themselves better to pve(especially groups). DEAL WITH IT. As was implied in my earlier post, its far easier for me to find a group for pvp then get picked up for a raid. I also understand Im likely to come out on the losing end against some classes. Lastly, because of refresh timers and pvper sprinting into zones (i.e. the docks in rok) i often dont see players on track until they are right on top of me, and usually, the opposing players have a scout anyway.Man, people can be so quick to criticize the advantages of classes they dont play, call for nerfs, while at complaining about getting something else they want.It is after all a game, not real life and death here folks. Get a grip, play the game, win some, lose some, have fun.

Krakelkr

12-04-2007, 09:06 AM

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target.Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).This thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarc</blockquote>Last time I opened up a track window (I think it was sunday) I could find a target, click to track and open my map to find him as much as about 100m away. I have tracked on 4 differnt scouts, and it has always been very powerful. I've also been able to follow the same 1 cross for 10minutes+.When scouts need to start lying to make a point, you know the argument is won.</blockquote>Maybe it's just since (in?) Kunark but you are wrong and Arctura is correct. The X disappears after a while. Don't know yet if it is time or proximity based.About track distance, in Kunark I see opponents before they appear on track most of the time so I should have a fair graps on the distance. It may be correct that you can detec someone at 100 meters (double the arrow range) but if I were to guess I'd say it's less.I'd guess most people here think it's unfair that I can find you and ambush you while you're killing mobs? That's moot cause I would do that without track too. It's a question of pvping actively or doing pve on a pvp server. The pvp:ers I'll fight, the pve:ers I'll ambush. Even scouts.My 3 lowbie toons don't care about track, they just turn around and kill the scout. When they pvp, of course.

Roald

12-04-2007, 09:14 AM

Yea the last time i used it was in Kunark, although I've been able to follow people around ages in CL with just 'one' track.Let me just point out that I have not once said whether or not I think track should be removed/adjusted, so please don't anyone assume I'm against the scouts here <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Siphar

12-04-2007, 09:52 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!90% of you anti-scout petitioners have a VERY distorted idea on what tracking is like these days.You all think its like the old days of huge track range and super uber powerful tracking screen of many features.(PS. before i start, let me just say i like track as is. Im not complaining, just clarifying)Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.No, you won't die. Because all you need to do is press: <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/evac.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="101" height="92" />(That must be very difficult.)There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target. Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).And when we are tracking one person, you think the scout is a super stealthy deathmachine. Well guess whatWhen the scout is TrackING someone, their track window is closed, and they are blind to the world. Think about that, and use it to your advantage. You can only have your track window open to see proximity targets, or track a single target, and lose the proximity targets list. Not both.Its really, really not as powerful as y'all think it isWell, if you need an update on who else is nearby, you just open the window again to check, then continue to follow the HUGE BIG GOLDEN TRAIL to your target. You even get a giant X on your map that shows your target's exact location when you start tracking someone.This thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarcSeriously, roll a scout, get them to level 50. By then you should have a SOLID understanding of the 'overpoweredness' that is Track. (/extreme sarcasm)I do have a scout. Granted, the level is a little lower than 50 - but track is an amazing tool to find targets. When I play that character, I always know who is nearby, their con and ca. how far away they are. If I don't see their con, they are either Qs or very far away. A quick /who (which I have macroed) will reveal that information as well. Basically, the track window tells me everything I need to know. If I don't want to die, I never have to as a scout. I only die when: A) I lose a fight I choose to engage in or B) I get too impatient to wait for my 15 min (!) recast evac to refresh. </blockquote>But you can keep your track for all I care, to be honest. It does have a function, and I'm sure it also leads to more PvP in these huge zones. It also make scouts more valuable in groups, which is a good thing. So far so good, but...The ability to track is a very powerful tool that should NEVER have been combined with evac. Nobody should be able to pick and choose their battles that easily.It's also a pity with the token system, because it encourages scouts to ditch the groups and just go out alone instead. That way they don't have to share their tokens with anyone, and most scouts are more than capable of racking up tons of kills on their own. That is why scouts will be the first ones to get a full set of PvP gear this time around, too - long before everyone else. Many classes are actually much better off raiding for their gear than hoping to ever get it through PvP.</blockquote>In my experience as a scout since release, scouts only evac when they think they are going to die. There is really nothing tht apositive about it apart from denying yourself and the enemy a kill. Thats right, no oen gets a kill..As a scout nothing would make me more happy than never to evac and to fight every one I come across, however, people have the tendency not to play fair in this game (and all games). This is war, it's not supposed to be fair all the time! this is fine, so when that grp is running at my solo toon I will evac to save myself. Nothing wrong with this.Sure some title [Removed for Content] use evac to maintain their title, but who cares about titles anyway? lol. I would evac if I was losing infamy as an overseer or a hunter personally if I thought I have very little to no chance of winning.Track is powerful , I have to agree. Skree is looking at tracking as a half empty glass of water, most non-scouts (even if they have scout alts) see it as a little OP. I think it is somewhere in between. There have been many occassions when I can see someone in the distance before they come on track. This is especially relavent in ROk with all the big zones.I have also tracked 1 person and found a group and not been able to get away. In this case, track was bad.I have on countless occasions been tracking 1 person (track is down now), and engaged only to find someone else was stalking me. In this situation tracking has mis-served me, serving me only death or an evac. After the evac i just run out again or I can waste 15 minutes of my life and my play-time for it to come back up, F- that.Tracking is buggy soemtimes. I always re-cast tracking when I do something like zone or cast a totem. You really have to have it a while before you really understand all aspects of it. Use of tracking in ROK is less important as compared to other expansions I guarantee you that.Tracking gone would be a big hit to pvp in general. People would be hiding for hours/days and avoiding PvP by hiding in rocks etc. that would suck.Tracking can be used by everyone if they group with a scout. It really isn't that hard and I find most people grp in Rok anyway. I don't complain about lack of heals or free 45% run speed from a SoW... I find a healer or a warden for these things.

Pumancat

12-04-2007, 09:56 AM

OK, let's stop all the BSing on here; You say Track leads to more PVP. I ask for who? You're running around using track to find the easiest target for you to take advantage of; the easiest kill, and to avoid those characters on your track who you know you cannot beat in a fair fight. How's that make for more PVP? No answer, cause it doesn't. More PVP is NOT your ability to run around ganking all the solos that you find on track, and hide when another group comes to fight you. FACT: Track does NOT lead to more PVP; It's only there for scouts to find the easy targets for themselves, or their group. That is NOT more PVP, that is just easymode ganking, period! Get over yourselves and stop the lies.There is nothing about any one class to make MORE pvp. And having the advantage to " pick and choose " is NOT doing anything to help PVP. As some have already stated; they use it to avoid PVP. So explain how this one ability makes more PVP when it's use for exactly the opposite?Just stop making these stupid kinds of claims.Anarcheru

Siphar

12-04-2007, 10:12 AM

<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote> OK, let's stop all the BSing on here; You say Track leads to more PVP. I ask for who? You're running around using track to find the easiest target for you to take advantage of; the easiest kill, and to avoid those characters on your track who you know you cannot beat in a fair fight. How's that make for more PVP? No answer, cause it doesn't. More PVP is NOT your ability to run around ganking all the solos that you find on track, and hide when another group comes to fight you. FACT: Track does NOT lead to more PVP; It's only there for scouts to find the easy targets for themselves, or their group. That is NOT more PVP, that is just easymode ganking, period! Get over yourselves and stop the lies.There is nothing about any one class to make MORE pvp. And having the advantage to " pick and choose " is NOT doing anything to help PVP. As some have already stated; they use it to avoid PVP. So explain how this one ability makes more PVP when it's use for exactly the opposite?Just stop making these stupid kinds of claims.Anarcheru</blockquote><ol><li>Other players looking for PvP (especially scouts) will always know I'm there, whether they run from my name or actively run after me is based on my reputation I guess. So this eliminates all the active PvP scouts on the server from the "easy target" you call it.</li><li>Of the remaining bot and PvE noobs, I will own them, as any dedicated player would. Nothing to see here, track has only helped here if they enclosed behind rocks or something. </li></ol>Let me give you an example, if a brawler sees an enemy PC and my assassin sees the same one. If that enemy see me, i'd much rather be on the brawler because they are far superior in confronted pvp (which is generally the case as most pvp player use totems). However if they don't see me, i'd rather be on my scout for obvious reason.You would be surprised, as an assassin there are many classes I really struggle with if they see me before I can get to them. Tracking can help me identify targets, <ul><li>any grps I can't attack, </li><li>any brawlers I have to be very careful of because they will own my face or get 101 mobs on my by FD'ing mobs on me, then powning my face, </li><li>any druids I have to make sure they don't see my approaching or I won't win (or they will evac/PoTC), </li><li>any scouts will see me and know i'm there or they deserve to die because they are not running totem on a pvp server,</li></ul>SERIOUSLY, how many more people solo?Not many, meaning your argument is not very valid.P.S. Tracking helps me find PvP targets, ofcourse it increases PvP. Maybe not your PvP, but it increases mine and that is increasing overall PvP. Find a scout and /group-invite

Tae

12-04-2007, 10:18 AM

The X will not vanish until the person goes into another zone. If you open your track window, click "Waypoint" their name will be there. Click on it, and the X will come back. This means they are track locked forever. However track does have a huge updating problem. I've been standing right next to people who aren't on it for me. People will appear on it when we've already seen them chasing us.

Amphibia

12-04-2007, 10:26 AM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>In my experience as a scout since release, scouts only evac when they think they are going to die. There is really nothing tht apositive about it apart from denying yourself and the enemy a kill. Thats right, no oen gets a kill..As a scout nothing would make me more happy than never to evac and to fight every one I come across, however, people have the tendency not to play fair in this game (and all games). This is war, it's not supposed to be fair all the time! this is fine, so when that grp is running at my solo toon I will evac to save myself. Nothing wrong with this.Sure some title [Removed for Content] use evac to maintain their title, but who cares about titles anyway? lol. I would evac if I was losing infamy as an overseer or a hunter personally if I thought I have very little to no chance of winning.</blockquote>Most of the people I come across in PvP when I'm solo nowadays just evac from me if they can't catch me by suprise. Some don't, but that's usually because they play classes that can't do it. They have no choice but to stand and fight. Too bad so few people play those classes... Is one clothy really that scary? I just want people to fight me instead of disappearing into thin air every time they're under attack. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Maybe it's because of the titles? As a clothy I can't care about that, because then I would probably go nuts. We can't get away from anyone, so we're free fame and tokens for every group that finds us. But then at least someone gets some tokens, so I guess it's not so bad that it isn't good for anything. Cheers! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Krakelkr

12-04-2007, 10:38 AM

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The X will not vanish until the person goes into another zone. If you open your track window, click "Waypoint" their name will be there. Click on it, and the X will come back. This means they are track locked forever. However track does have a huge updating problem. I've been standing right next to people who aren't on it for me. People will appear on it when we've already seen them chasing us. </blockquote>This sounds like something I should know about. What UI are you using for this?

GetSome

12-04-2007, 10:49 AM

If track is so overpowered has anybody check the top 100 pvp rankings, most pvp kills, kill streaks and pvp kill vs death ratio. Like the previous poster said "You're running around using track to find the easiest target for you to take advantage of; the easiest kill, and to avoid those characters on your track who you know you cannot beat in a fair fight." and another poster said "In my experience as a scout since release, scouts only evac when they think they are going to die."If you believe those statements to be true then the rankings should be mostly scouts

Dh

12-04-2007, 12:14 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have played 2 scouts to 70 on PVP and now play a 77 warlock. I also have a 47 ranger and 58 swash. I am also mainly a solo player or only have 1-2 people with me. I would rather see tracking PCs removed on PVP servers instead of giving everyone a track item. If tracking PCs was removed along with can't revive while group members are in pvp combat and no fame loss on death, this would be the perfect game. </blockquote>You have to admit even if you are a scout, the above changes would increase the quality of PVP 10 fold. It would be way more fun. Even without track, scouts are at the top of the food chain with their your fast high damage attacks and control abilities that can be casted on the run and uninterruptable evac.

-Arctura-

12-04-2007, 12:46 PM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!90% of you anti-scout petitioners have a VERY distorted idea on what tracking is like these days.You all think its like the old days of huge track range and super uber powerful tracking screen of many features.(PS. before i start, let me just say i like track as is. Im not complaining, just clarifying)Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.No, you won't die. Because all you need to do is press: <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/evac.jpg" border="0" alt="" />(That must be very difficult.)Your maturity is overwhelming.There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target. Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).And when we are tracking one person, you think the scout is a super stealthy deathmachine. Well guess whatWhen the scout is TrackING someone, their track window is closed, and they are blind to the world. Think about that, and use it to your advantage. You can only have your track window open to see proximity targets, or track a single target, and lose the proximity targets list. Not both.Its really, really not as powerful as y'all think it isWell, if you need an update on who else is nearby, you just open the window again to check, When you cancel a track and re-open the window, you lose your target. If they are outside your tracking radius now, you cannot track them any longer.then continue to follow the HUGE BIG GOLDEN TRAIL to your target. assuming the target did not stray out of the very tiny track radius. (unlikely)You even get a giant X on your map that shows your target's exact location when you start tracking someone.Incorrect. The X does not show the 'exact location'It shows a 'recent location' based on the update speed of the tracking system.And the X is not giant, roughly the size of the mouse cursor, or smaller.This thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarcSeriously, roll a scout, get them to level 50. By then you should have a SOLID understanding of the 'overpoweredness' that is Track. (/extreme sarcasm)I do have a scout. Granted, the level is a little lower than 50 - but track is an amazing tool to find targets. It used to be an amazing tool to find targets. Now it is an amazing tool to tell you who is in your immediate area, and can be targeted by a simple 'rotate camera angle + Press Tab'. When I play that character, I always know who is nearby, their con and ca. how far away they are. If I don't see their con, they are either Qs or very far away.Perhaps you haven't noticed lately, but names on your track window VERY seldom appear non-colored anymore these days. The track radius was reduced so much so, that at present, by the time they appear on track, they are already close enough for a color con-reading. A quick /who (which I have macroed) will reveal that information as well. Basically, the track window tells me everything I need to know. Everything except for 'enemy distance, enemy heading, enemy speed, enemy Hp condition, enemy Mp condition, Enemy Class, Enemy group/raid/solo state, enemy buffs applied, etc.'So basically everything you need to know... yea.All of the above factors are a necessity to make an educated field estimate at the outcome of a battle, before you engage. Without the above information, you might as well be walking blindly off a cliff.The above information can only be gained by a visual inspection. And if im not mistaken, all classes can perform a 'visual inspection'.If I don't want to die, I never have to as a scout. I only die when: A) I lose a fight I choose to engage in or B) I get too impatient to wait for my 15 min (!) recast evac to refresh. Good heavens, the ability to CHOOSE a fight. Thats mind boggling, and just downright WRONG! /sarc.Say... the ability to wander around and avoid enemies, that sounds like a quality of a scout to me...</blockquote>But you can keep your track for all I care, to be honest. Yet you continue to partake in this forum petition against it.It has a function, and I'm sure it also leads to more PvP in these huge zones. It also make scouts more valuable in groups, which is a good thing. Your admission that tracking is valuable and conducive to PVP is well noted. So far so good, but...The ability to track is a very powerful tool that should NEVER have been combined with evac. Nobody should be able to pick and choose their battles that easily.If it were as easy as you seem to illustrate, one could assume that every single scout ingame should therefor have no deaths in their KVD, but no, this is not the case.Once again another fine example of people blowing a whistle on an issue that has been grossly inflated beyond the realm of reality.Only half of successful PVP is the art of the Kill. The other half is Evasion.A class that cant heal itself, or absorb much damage is ENTITLED to other means of evasion when trouble comes around.(Which is why some mage classes that cant charm or summon a pet have Evac)It's also a pity with the token system, because it encourages scouts to ditch the groups and just go out alone instead. Ive seen more than just scouts 'go out alone' and do just fine. Ive seen solo monks, guardians, even HEALER classes do EXCEPTIONALLY well all by themselves. With the proper know-how and gear, anyone can be a skilled soloist.Track and evac do NOT 'encourage scouts to go out alone'. Evac clearly states 'teleports the Casters GROUP', and track has a 'Group' filter. Peoples tendencies to hunt solo are more likely influenced by the skill levels and/or general awareness levels of those around them.That way they don't have to share their tokens with anyone, Do YOU want to share your tokens with others? Exactly.and most scouts are more than capable of racking up tons of kills on their own. If im not mistaken, more than just scouts are capable of racking up tons of kills on their own.Ive always suggested to anyone having trouble with pvp to get a skilled pvp buddy and pick their brain, perhaps gleam some tactics.Calling for nerfs is not the answer in this situation.That is why scouts will be the first ones to get a full set of PvP gear this time around, too - long before everyone else. Its only logical to assume that DPS classes (who are dedicated to damage dealing) are able to kill enemies faster than say, healers or tanks.Therefor its only logical to assume that if by chance, they ventured out solo, they would be able to continue hunting at a faster pace than when slowed down by groupmates.You see, its not track that is keeping you from collecting tokens as quickly as other classes, its the nature of the class you picked. Im assuming you arent a scout class, and therein lies your dilemma. By design, your dps output is just not steep enough to claim kills as quickly as the scout classes.Many classes are actually better off raiding for their gear than hoping to ever get it through PvP....Name one class that you think is debilitated in PVP, and ill give you a name of a player who has succeeded very well , all by themselves at it, of the selected class.---Anyways... carry on with your vastly generalized opinionated statements.</blockquote><img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/DarkShadow2ONEXX--------------.gif" alt="" border="0" />

KannaWhoopass

12-04-2007, 02:05 PM

Skree you wouldnt leave the city without a track window and i know it. I play'd with you for long enough!Ill tell you about track .. I have played a ranger and a brigand for more than a year before moving on to my Warden and Defiler. Ill tell you about my day yesterday. Totems on Trying to harvest on my warden .. Wham!!! im at 50% health .. Im spinning in circles trying to find the ranger ... i cant see him .. whack 20% awww danm it try to evac.. interupted ... DEAD.. Do you know where the ranger was.... he was 2 inches tall .. standing inside a harvestable shrub.. Nice trick .. i suppose .. BS if you ask me ... but then again IF i had tracking .. i would have seen him .. because with track geography has no significance. Ill take tracking .. even i it is 100 m .. which it isnt .. its larger .. that is 360 vision ... with 1 totem up that perfect 360 vision .. geograph doesnt matter .. illusions dont matter .. However ... as im harvesting with totems up .. with no track .. i cant SEE the 2 inch tall scouts .. standing in stealth .. so they are transparesnt .. 40 m away standing inside a shrub .. scouts in cat form .. or with LON items shrinking them to cockroach size.. kinda defeats the whole purpose of see stealth or invis totems .. I play with some guys who sont even render these guys till they are right next to them .. If tracking wasnt such a Awsome skill .. this thead wouldnt be 15 pages long.. if this debate were on rez timers being too long .. the post wouldnt make page 2. Tracking needs a counter .. either a class/item who can avoid being tracked ... Or a items.class who gets a warning message whena scout starts to track them . . Becasue It coupled with being 2 inches tall .. full speed in stealth .. increased in combat run speed .. high dps .. native stealth evac.. . bleh bleh bleh ... Its too much ...If you couldnt track players .. ok if tokens gear for were 3 x as much .. to reflect the ease of aquiring them .. ok If there were some downside to using track ... perhaps .. But there isnt .. Anti track .. is the solution .. then tracking would join the list of abilities with counters..

-Arctura-

12-04-2007, 02:11 PM

(( maybe dont blame Track for people being 2 inches tall? hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Amphibia

12-04-2007, 02:24 PM

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!90% of you anti-scout petitioners have a VERY distorted idea on what tracking is like these days.You all think its like the old days of huge track range and super uber powerful tracking screen of many features.(PS. before i start, let me just say i like track as is. Im not complaining, just clarifying)Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.No, you won't die. Because all you need to do is press: <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/evac.jpg" border="0" alt="" />(That must be very difficult.)Your maturity is overwhelming.Ok, I'll speak your language: So is yours. ((/extreme sarcasm off <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target. Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).And when we are tracking one person, you think the scout is a super stealthy deathmachine. Well guess whatWhen the scout is TrackING someone, their track window is closed, and they are blind to the world. Think about that, and use it to your advantage. You can only have your track window open to see proximity targets, or track a single target, and lose the proximity targets list. Not both.Its really, really not as powerful as y'all think it isWell, if you need an update on who else is nearby, you just open the window again to check, When you cancel a track and re-open the window, you lose your target. If they are outside your tracking radius now, you cannot track them any longer.If you are still in range, the target should still be on your list and you can lock on it again. If not, well... then you lost him. But if you follow that direction, you might get him back on track soon enough. I've done this too, Skree. then continue to follow the HUGE BIG GOLDEN TRAIL to your target. assuming the target did not stray out of the very tiny track radius. (unlikely)That's exaggerating. You even get a giant X on your map that shows your target's exact location when you start tracking someone.Incorrect. The X does not show the 'exact location'It shows a 'recent location' based on the update speed of the tracking system.And the X is not giant, roughly the size of the mouse cursor, or smaller.I believe it shows the location of your target the moment you locked on to that person. And please don't tell me you can't see that big, red X on your map, because we both know that isn't true. It's impossible not to see it. This thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarcSeriously, roll a scout, get them to level 50. By then you should have a SOLID understanding of the 'overpoweredness' that is Track. (/extreme sarcasm)I do have a scout. Granted, the level is a little lower than 50 - but track is an amazing tool to find targets. It used to be an amazing tool to find targets. Now it is an amazing tool to tell you who is in your immediate area, and can be targeted by a simple 'rotate camera angle + Press Tab'. The scouts I group with never seem to have any trouble finding targets, so I'm guessing it is still a good tool for that purpose. That's ok, it is supposed to be like that. But lets call the spade by its proper name, ok?When I play that character, I always know who is nearby, their con and ca. how far away they are. If I don't see their con, they are either Qs or very far away.Perhaps you haven't noticed lately, but names on your track window VERY seldom appear non-colored anymore these days. The track radius was reduced so much so, that at present, by the time they appear on track, they are already close enough for a color con-reading.Well, I haven't noticed much difference, but I made this character less than 6 months ago. If you feel this isn't functioning properly, bug it and it may get fixed. A quick /who (which I have macroed) will reveal that information as well. Basically, the track window tells me everything I need to know. Everything except for 'enemy distance, enemy heading, enemy speed, enemy Hp condition, enemy Mp condition, Enemy Class, Enemy group/raid/solo state, enemy buffs applied, etc.'So basically everything you need to know... yea.All of the above factors are a necessity to make an educated field estimate at the outcome of a battle, before you engage. Without the above information, you might as well be walking blindly off a cliff.The above information can only be gained by a visual inspection. And if im not mistaken, all classes can perform a 'visual inspection'.C'mon Skree, you don't seem like a stupid person. So don't act like one, ok? I bet you know the names of quite a few of those people that pop up on your track, and what class they play. If you see many at once, you will know that they may be grouped or raided up. If you are unsure, stay on a distance and check the tag. Then you will also see their HP/mana and all their buffs too. Remember that track gives you an advance warning, so there is no reason you should be suprised by other players very often. Have you ever tried to just run blind? Turn your track off and not use it at all for an hour? Other classes get no warning in advance and require you to be a hell of a lot more wary of your surroundings, like turning your camera around constantly and spamming the next hostile key non-stop. If I don't want to die, I never have to as a scout. I only die when: A) I lose a fight I choose to engage in or B) I get too impatient to wait for my 15 min (!) recast evac to refresh. Good heavens, the ability to CHOOSE a fight. Thats mind boggling, and just downright WRONG! /sarc.Say... the ability to wander around and avoid enemies, that sounds like a quality of a scout to me...Well, you know... most classes don't have that option at all. Why should you have it? </blockquote>But you can keep your track for all I care, to be honest. Yet you continue to partake in this forum petition against it.This is not a forum petition, it is a discussion. You understand the difference, don't you? Petitions are not allowed on this forum, and it is not up to any of us to change anything. That is entirely up to the devs. I doubt anything will happen to track, so just relax. It has a function, and I'm sure it also leads to more PvP in these huge zones. It also make scouts more valuable in groups, which is a good thing. Your admission that tracking is valuable and conducive to PVP is well noted. ... you forgot to add ((/sarcasm off. So far so good, but...The ability to track is a very powerful tool that should NEVER have been combined with evac. Nobody should be able to pick and choose their battles that easily.If it were as easy as you seem to illustrate, one could assume that every single scout ingame should therefor have no deaths in their KVD, but no, this is not the case.Once again another fine example of people blowing a whistle on an issue that has been grossly inflated beyond the realm of reality.Only half of successful PVP is the art of the Kill. The other half is Evasion.A class that cant heal itself, or absorb much damage is ENTITLED to other means of evasion when trouble comes around.(Which is why some mage classes that cant charm or summon a pet have Evac)How come most classes don't have any tools to evade PvP then? Explain that. It's like arranging bicycle race where half the contestants have to make do without bicycles.... It's also a pity with the token system, because it encourages scouts to ditch the groups and just go out alone instead. Ive seen more than just scouts 'go out alone' and do just fine. Ive seen solo monks, guardians, even HEALER classes do EXCEPTIONALLY well all by themselves. With the proper know-how and gear, anyone can be a skilled soloist.Track and evac do NOT 'encourage scouts to go out alone'. Evac clearly states 'teleports the Casters GROUP', and track has a 'Group' filter. Peoples tendencies to hunt solo are more likely influenced by the skill levels and/or general awareness levels of those around them.All classes can go out and solo, yes. But none as successfully as someone with track and evac. Especially if you care about titles, you will be able to solo and keep it without evac. I stopped caring about that, because it's pretty meaningless these days. But I have guildmates who still care, and some of them just don't go out without a good group.That way they don't have to share their tokens with anyone, Do YOU want to share your tokens with others? Exactly.Wow. If you group with people, there is no such thing as your tokens. Do you ever group with anyone? And if nobody wanted to group up, people who play support classes would need a year to get their first piece of PvP gear. Is that just fine to you? You obviously don't understand this. My point was that groups gain the same amount of tokens from a player, 1-3 and there are 2-6 people that have to share that. To PvP effectively as a group, you want a tracker. With me so far? But the trackers don't really need a group to get their kills, and with a token system like that, there is really no reason for them to group at all if they want their PvP gear quickly. Removing track will not solve any of this. More tokens pr. kill for groups would perhaps fix it, though. and most scouts are more than capable of racking up tons of kills on their own. If im not mistaken, more than just scouts are capable of racking up tons of kills on their own.Ive always suggested to anyone having trouble with pvp to get a skilled pvp buddy and pick their brain, perhaps gleam some tactics.Calling for nerfs is not the answer in this situation.Again, you miss the point. Of course a lot of other classes are capable of killing - hell, except those poor summoners, most classes stand a fair chance in 1v1's. I didn't ask for a DPS nerf, did I? I'm not really in favor of a nerf to track either, but I pointed out that it is FAR easier to FIND targets with track than without it. Do you disagree with that statement? Nevermind, forget I asked. I know you do. Because track is sooo [Removed for Content]. It's useless and merely a cosmetic feature (lol). <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />That is why scouts will be the first ones to get a full set of PvP gear this time around, too - long before everyone else. Its only logical to assume that DPS classes (who are dedicated to damage dealing) are able to kill enemies faster than say, healers or tanks.Therefor its only logical to assume that if by chance, they ventured out solo, they would be able to continue hunting at a faster pace than when slowed down by groupmates.You see, its not track that is keeping you from collecting tokens as quickly as other classes, its the nature of the class you picked. Im assuming you arent a scout class, and therein lies your dilemma. By design, your dps output is just not steep enough to claim kills as quickly as the scout classes.If grouping was an equally good alternative as soloing to collect tokens, this thread might not have existed at all. Part of the problem is that it isn't so. Back when faction was gained just by helping out with a kill, everyone had a fair chance of getting their rewards, regardless of class. Healing, support etc was equally valued. Now it is all about DPS and ability to find your targets. The title system is all about ability to kill and ability to avoid enemies you can't beat. If all classes had an equally good chance to compete, everything would have been fine. But that isn't the case. Many classes are actually better off raiding for their gear than hoping to ever get it through PvP....Name one class that you think is debilitated in PVP, and ill give you a name of a player who has succeeded very well , all by themselves at it, of the selected class.What does that have to do with anything? Even the worst PvP classes have had one or a few exceptionally good players since launch, but if a class is very hard and frustrating to play - not many will bother to play it. At the same time, easier classes become vastly overplayed. This affects everything, especially PvE and raiding. Templars are hard to come by, so are guardians and plate tanks in general. But there are enough rangers and swashies in Qeynos to fill a dozen raids every night. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />When I'm out PvP'ing, all I ever see is brigands, brigands and more brigands.... and then some druids, assassins and an occasional wizard into the mix. It is very rare to see anything else. And that is because those classes are just far better suited for PvP than others. People aren't stupid, you know. They choose the best alternative for the best gaming experience. And then there are some dumbasses like myself who obviously picked wrong on character select, I guess. ---Anyways... carry on with your vastly generalized opinionated statements.Same to you. </blockquote></blockquote>Replies in green this time.

toenukl

12-04-2007, 04:03 PM

<cite>GetSome wrote:</cite><blockquote>If track is so overpowered has anybody check the top 100 pvp rankings, most pvp kills, kill streaks and pvp kill vs death ratio. Ok <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>KvD leaderboard no longer exists and the most infamous and Total Kills leaderboards are identical.--------------------------------------------------Most infamous Players/Most KillsTop Ten5/10, 50% scouts2/10, 20% priests1/10, 10% fighters2/10, 20% magesTop 10052/100 scouts, 52%21/100 priests, 21% (16 druids) 18/100 fighters, 18%9/100 mages, 9%

-Arctura-

12-04-2007, 04:06 PM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( GOODNESSS!!!!!!!90% of you anti-scout petitioners have a VERY distorted idea on what tracking is like these days.You all think its like the old days of huge track range and super uber powerful tracking screen of many features.(PS. before i start, let me just say i like track as is. Im not complaining, just clarifying)Track is [Removed for Content]. It will only nowadays tell you who is within bow-range (AT BEST). And when they are in bow range, you are in theirs, and/or spell range.It is NOT a radar. Radar updates in a regular sweeping motion. Track updates are erratic and untrustworthy. Radar tells you how close the targets are to you. Track does nothing of the sort. It tells you if there is Something THERE, but if you trust your track window, youll be a dead scout.No, you won't die. Because all you need to do is press: <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/evac.jpg" border="0" alt="" />(That must be very difficult.)Your maturity is overwhelming.Ok, I'll speak your language: So is yours. ((/extreme sarcasm off <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />There is NO perma track lock. Its got a rough decay and after a set time, the X on our maps dissapears and we lose the target. Its basically a cosmetic feature these days. Its a 'here is a list of people who are currently casting a spell on you' (because of the extreme short range).And when we are tracking one person, you think the scout is a super stealthy deathmachine. Well guess whatWhen the scout is TrackING someone, their track window is closed, and they are blind to the world. Think about that, and use it to your advantage. You can only have your track window open to see proximity targets, or track a single target, and lose the proximity targets list. Not both.Its really, really not as powerful as y'all think it isWell, if you need an update on who else is nearby, you just open the window again to check, When you cancel a track and re-open the window, you lose your target. If they are outside your tracking radius now, you cannot track them any longer.If you are still in range, the target should still be on your list and you can lock on it again. If not, well... then you lost him. But if you follow that direction, you might get him back on track soon enough. I've done this too, Skree. then continue to follow the HUGE BIG GOLDEN TRAIL to your target. assuming the target did not stray out of the very tiny track radius. (unlikely)That's exaggerating. You even get a giant X on your map that shows your target's exact location when you start tracking someone.Incorrect. The X does not show the 'exact location'It shows a 'recent location' based on the update speed of the tracking system.And the X is not giant, roughly the size of the mouse cursor, or smaller.I believe it shows the location of your target the moment you locked on to that person. And please don't tell me you can't see that big, red X on your map, Its a white "X", or a red "dot" =Pbecause we both know that isn't true. It's impossible not to see it. This thread really goes to show the power of the 'forum bandwagon'. Quick! Everyone! hitch a ride! Dont bother researching the current state of the game, just jump on and join me in my jihad! /sarcSeriously, roll a scout, get them to level 50. By then you should have a SOLID understanding of the 'overpoweredness' that is Track. (/extreme sarcasm)I do have a scout. Granted, the level is a little lower than 50 - but track is an amazing tool to find targets. It used to be an amazing tool to find targets. Now it is an amazing tool to tell you who is in your immediate area, and can be targeted by a simple 'rotate camera angle + Press Tab'. The scouts I group with never seem to have any trouble finding targets, so I'm guessing it is still a good tool for that purpose. That's ok, it is supposed to be like that. But lets call the spade by its proper name, ok?When I play that character, I always know who is nearby, their con and ca. how far away they are. If I don't see their con, they are either Qs or very far away.Perhaps you haven't noticed lately, but names on your track window VERY seldom appear non-colored anymore these days. The track radius was reduced so much so, that at present, by the time they appear on track, they are already close enough for a color con-reading.Well, I haven't noticed much difference, but I made this character less than 6 months ago. If you feel this isn't functioning properly, bug it and it may get fixed. A quick /who (which I have macroed) will reveal that information as well. Basically, the track window tells me everything I need to know. Everything except for 'enemy distance, enemy heading, enemy speed, enemy Hp condition, enemy Mp condition, Enemy Class, Enemy group/raid/solo state, enemy buffs applied, etc.'So basically everything you need to know... yea.All of the above factors are a necessity to make an educated field estimate at the outcome of a battle, before you engage. Without the above information, you might as well be walking blindly off a cliff.The above information can only be gained by a visual inspection. And if im not mistaken, all classes can perform a 'visual inspection'.C'mon Skree, you don't seem like a stupid person. So don't act like one, ok? I bet you know the names of quite a few of those people that pop up on your track, and what class they play. If you see many at once, you will know that they may be grouped or raided up. If you are unsure, stay on a distance and check the tag. Then you will also see their HP/mana and all their buffs too. Remember that track gives you an advance warning, so there is no reason you should be suprised by other players very often. Have you ever tried to just run blind? Turn your track off and not use it at all for an hour? Other classes get no warning in advance and require you to be a hell of a lot more wary of your surroundings, like turning your camera around constantly and spamming the next hostile key non-stop. If I don't want to die, I never have to as a scout. I only die when: A) I lose a fight I choose to engage in or B) I get too impatient to wait for my 15 min (!) recast evac to refresh. Good heavens, the ability to CHOOSE a fight. Thats mind boggling, and just downright WRONG! /sarc.Say... the ability to wander around and avoid enemies, that sounds like a quality of a scout to me...Well, you know... most classes don't have that option at all. Why should you have it? </blockquote>But you can keep your track for all I care, to be honest. Yet you continue to partake in this forum petition against it.This is not a forum petition, it is a discussion. You understand the difference, don't you? Petitions are not allowed on this forum, and it is not up to any of us to change anything. That is entirely up to the devs. I doubt anything will happen to track, so just relax. It has a function, and I'm sure it also leads to more PvP in these huge zones. It also make scouts more valuable in groups, which is a good thing. Your admission that tracking is valuable and conducive to PVP is well noted. ... you forgot to add ((/sarcasm off. So far so good, but...The ability to track is a very powerful tool that should NEVER have been combined with evac. Nobody should be able to pick and choose their battles that easily.If it were as easy as you seem to illustrate, one could assume that every single scout ingame should therefor have no deaths in their KVD, but no, this is not the case.Once again another fine example of people blowing a whistle on an issue that has been grossly inflated beyond the realm of reality.Only half of successful PVP is the art of the Kill. The other half is Evasion.A class that cant heal itself, or absorb much damage is ENTITLED to other means of evasion when trouble comes around.(Which is why some mage classes that cant charm or summon a pet have Evac)How come most classes don't have any tools to evade PvP then? Explain that. It's like arranging bicycle race where half the contestants have to make do without bicycles.... It's also a pity with the token system, because it encourages scouts to ditch the groups and just go out alone instead. Ive seen more than just scouts 'go out alone' and do just fine. Ive seen solo monks, guardians, even HEALER classes do EXCEPTIONALLY well all by themselves. With the proper know-how and gear, anyone can be a skilled soloist.Track and evac do NOT 'encourage scouts to go out alone'. Evac clearly states 'teleports the Casters GROUP', and track has a 'Group' filter. Peoples tendencies to hunt solo are more likely influenced by the skill levels and/or general awareness levels of those around them.All classes can go out and solo, yes. But none as successfully as someone with track and evac. Especially if you care about titles, you will be able to solo and keep it without evac. I stopped caring about that, because it's pretty meaningless these days. But I have guildmates who still care, and some of them just don't go out without a good group.That way they don't have to share their tokens with anyone, Do YOU want to share your tokens with others? Exactly.Wow. If you group with people, there is no such thing as your tokens. Do you ever group with anyone? Not really, no. People get me killed. People are unreliable (mostly). On the (rare) occasion that i grab someone to hunt with, its usually either one of two select individuals.e.And if nobody wanted to group up, people who play support classes would need a year to get their first piece of PvP gear. Is that just fine to you? You obviously don't understand this. My point was that groups gain the same amount of tokens from a player, 1-3 and there are 2-6 people that have to share that. To PvP effectively as a group, you want a tracker. With me so far? But the trackers don't really need a group to get their kills, and with a token system like that, there is really no reason for them to group at all if they want their PvP gear quickly. Removing track will not solve any of this. More tokens pr. kill for groups would perhaps fix it, though. and most scouts are more than capable of racking up tons of kills on their own. If im not mistaken, more than just scouts are capable of racking up tons of kills on their own.Ive always suggested to anyone having trouble with pvp to get a skilled pvp buddy and pick their brain, perhaps gleam some tactics.Calling for nerfs is not the answer in this situation.Again, you miss the point. Of course a lot of other classes are capable of killing - hell, except those poor summoners, most classes stand a fair chance in 1v1's. I didn't ask for a DPS nerf, did I? I'm not really in favor of a nerf to track either, but I pointed out that it is FAR easier to FIND targets with track than without it. Do you disagree with that statement? Nevermind, forget I asked. I know you do. Because track is sooo [Removed for Content]. It's useless and merely a cosmetic feature (lol). <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />That is why scouts will be the first ones to get a full set of PvP gear this time around, too - long before everyone else. Its only logical to assume that DPS classes (who are dedicated to damage dealing) are able to kill enemies faster than say, healers or tanks.Therefor its only logical to assume that if by chance, they ventured out solo, they would be able to continue hunting at a faster pace than when slowed down by groupmates.You see, its not track that is keeping you from collecting tokens as quickly as other classes, its the nature of the class you picked. Im assuming you arent a scout class, and therein lies your dilemma. By design, your dps output is just not steep enough to claim kills as quickly as the scout classes.If grouping was an equally good alternative as soloing to collect tokens, this thread might not have existed at all. Part of the problem is that it isn't so. Back when faction was gained just by helping out with a kill, everyone had a fair chance of getting their rewards, regardless of class. Healing, support etc was equally valued. Now it is all about DPS and ability to find your targets. The title system is all about ability to kill and ability to avoid enemies you can't beat. If all classes had an equally good chance to compete, everything would have been fine. But that isn't the case. Many classes are actually better off raiding for their gear than hoping to ever get it through PvP....Name one class that you think is debilitated in PVP, and ill give you a name of a player who has succeeded very well , all by themselves at it, of the selected class.What does that have to do with anything? Even the worst PvP classes have had one or a few exceptionally good players since launch, but if a class is very hard and frustrating to play - not many will bother to play it. At the same time, easier classes become vastly overplayed. This affects everything, especially PvE and raiding. Templars are hard to come by, so are guardians and plate tanks in general. But there are enough rangers and swashies in Qeynos to fill a dozen raids every night. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />When I'm out PvP'ing, all I ever see is brigands, brigands and more brigands.... and then some druids, assassins and an occasional wizard into the mix. It is very rare to see anything else. And that is because those classes are just far better suited for PvP than others. People aren't stupid, you know. They choose the best alternative for the best gaming experience. And then there are some dumbasses like myself who obviously picked wrong on character select, I guess. ---Anyways... carry on with your vastly generalized opinionated statements.Same to you. </blockquote></blockquote>Replies in green this time. </blockquote>(( too much to read, ill read through and reply after school, seeya! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />

Eluzay

12-04-2007, 07:58 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say No.As a scout.. </blockquote>nuff saidas for defensive tool, if groups didnt have scouting trackers in their groups it would be harder to find them.

GetSome

12-04-2007, 08:38 PM

<cite>GetSome wrote:</cite><blockquote>If track is so overpowered has anybody check the top 100 pvp rankings, most pvp kills, kill streaks and pvp kill vs death ratio. Ok <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>KvD leaderboard no longer exists and the most infamous and Total Kills leaderboards are identical.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------KvD does still exist if you know where to look. updated Dec 3, 2007Ok <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Pvp Kill vs Death ratio on NagafenTop 100 level 60-70<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>30/100, 30% healers</li><li>15/100, 15% fighters</li><li>15/100, 15% casters</li></ol>Levels 50-59<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>32/100, 32% healers</li><li>18/100, 18% fighters</li><li>10/100, 10% casters</li></ol>Levels 40-49<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>38/100, 38% healers</li><li>14/100, 14% fighters</li><li>8/100, 8% casters</li></ol>Levels 30-39<ol><li>42/100, 42% healers</li><li>39/100, 39% scouts</li><li>15/100, 15% fighters</li><li>4/100, 4% casters</li></ol>Didn't bother to do lower tiers since there are so many twinks.scouts crush fighters and casters in KvD but not healers and would be closer if it wasn't for scouts evac. maybe its because of the healers tracking ability.Hmmm But healers don't have track whats the reason for them being so high over fighters and casters and so close to scouts. heals? nerf heals

Notsovilepriest

12-04-2007, 08:53 PM

To be fair, can you split the healer section into Druids and Non Druids?

toenukl

12-04-2007, 09:45 PM

<cite>GetSome wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GetSome wrote:</cite><blockquote>If track is so overpowered has anybody check the top 100 pvp rankings, most pvp kills, kill streaks and pvp kill vs death ratio. Ok <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>KvD leaderboard no longer exists and the most infamous and Total Kills leaderboards are identical.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------KvD does still exist if you know where to look. updated Dec 3, 2007Ok <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Pvp Kill vs Death ratio on NagafenTop 100 level 60-70<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>30/100, 30% healers</li><li>15/100, 15% fighters</li><li>15/100, 15% casters</li></ol>Levels 50-59<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>32/100, 32% healers</li><li>18/100, 18% fighters</li><li>10/100, 10% casters</li></ol>Levels 40-49<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>38/100, 38% healers</li><li>14/100, 14% fighters</li><li>8/100, 8% casters</li></ol>Levels 30-39<ol><li>42/100, 42% healers</li><li>39/100, 39% scouts</li><li>15/100, 15% fighters</li><li>4/100, 4% casters</li></ol>Didn't bother to do lower tiers since there are so many twinks.scouts crush fighters and casters in KvD but not healers and would be closer if it wasn't for scouts evac. maybe its because of the healers tracking ability.Hmmm But healers don't have track whats the reason for them being so high over fighters and casters and so close to scouts. heals? nerf heals</blockquote>The 30-50 range has more healers because Furies are way OP in those tiers. Furthermore, I could care less about KvD, total kills is what gets you tokens. The token system is what I feel makes tracking overpowered, and you can see this is true from the total kills rankings. Just to reinstate before I get flamed, I am NOT for removing tracking altogether, just supportive of a way to hide from tracking or tracking for yourself through PvP obtained charm/item. If it happens, awesome, another great step toward making EQ2 PvP servers grow instead of shrink. If it doesn't, oh well, I've already accepted that scouts will be first to get PvP gear and therefore pwn me, so I will keep on playing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Also, I'd like to see a worldwide KvD ranking, as I don't play on Nagafen and from what I hear Naggy has way more group pvp and venekor more solo pvp. Those KvD could be higher simply because those people always roll in groups. Again, to avoid flames, I know group pvp is balanced, I know I can simply /invite, but the subject is solo scouts getting tokens faster due to tracking.

rvc

12-04-2007, 10:24 PM

Just a thought here rather than nerf tracking, or giving it to all players, perhaps create a totem that changes your appearance to that of any pvper that has you targeted. This would somewhat nerf the ability of scouts getting the sneak attack. Sure the scout can just not target till the last second, but as a scout i generally like to target and inspect buffs to confirm class, before i engage a fight. This would somewhat help eleviate picking fights im sure to win. Id eighter give up the element of suprise by targeting or Id take my chances on losing not knowing what class im going up against. I understand yeah casters wear robes, but anyone can wear robes nowadays /shrug.

rvc

12-04-2007, 10:33 PM

Heh had another thought perhaps not as complicated as my first. How about a notice that scrolls on your chat window, Your being "targeted" for PVP. For those that dont play in 3rd person. I do think this ability should be the result of using a totem of some type.

Spyderbite

12-04-2007, 11:30 PM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I hear Naggy has way more group pvp and venekor more solo pvp.</blockquote>I would love to see more of this "solo pvp" that you speak of. If such an animal existed.. I wouldn't need my tracking to warn me about the 4v1 that was about to sweep down on me. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Eluzay

12-04-2007, 11:39 PM

<cite>GetSome wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>GetSome wrote:</cite><blockquote>If track is so overpowered has anybody check the top 100 pvp rankings, most pvp kills, kill streaks and pvp kill vs death ratio. Ok <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>KvD leaderboard no longer exists and the most infamous and Total Kills leaderboards are identical.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------KvD does still exist if you know where to look. updated Dec 3, 2007Ok <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Pvp Kill vs Death ratio on NagafenTop 100 level 60-70<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>30/100, 30% healers</li><li>15/100, 15% fighters</li><li>15/100, 15% casters</li></ol>Levels 50-59<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>32/100, 32% healers</li><li>18/100, 18% fighters</li><li>10/100, 10% casters</li></ol>Levels 40-49<ol><li>40/100, 40% scouts</li><li>38/100, 38% healers</li><li>14/100, 14% fighters</li><li>8/100, 8% casters</li></ol>Levels 30-39<ol><li>42/100, 42% healers</li><li>39/100, 39% scouts</li><li>15/100, 15% fighters</li><li>4/100, 4% casters</li></ol>Didn't bother to do lower tiers since there are so many twinks.scouts crush fighters and casters in KvD but not healers and would be closer if it wasn't for scouts evac. maybe its because of the healers tracking ability.Hmmm But healers don't have track whats the reason for them being so high over fighters and casters and so close to scouts. heals? nerf heals</blockquote>healers run in groups more than scouts so what you are sayin is that scouts (the most solo'd class) has a better k/d ration (by 25% relative) than the class that groups the most... hmmm thanks for such a convincing argument, i bet you were a winner on debate.

toenukl

12-05-2007, 12:24 AM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I hear Naggy has way more group pvp and venekor more solo pvp.</blockquote>I would love to see more of this "solo pvp" that you speak of. If such an animal existed.. I wouldn't need my tracking to warn me about the 4v1 that was about to sweep down on me. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I find solo PvP all the time, its swash/ranger 90% of the time since they track me down <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

GetSome

12-05-2007, 12:33 AM

Guess you just out debated me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> O well But thanks for admitting that scouts are (the most solo'd class) so nobody really has to worry about being tracked and killed by a scout because where mostly solo and everybody else is mostly in groups. and good luck killing a warden 1v1 they don't need a group.Track has been in the game since pvp servers went online and patch after patch no change if it was so overpowered for that long it would have been changed. I guess it's just the flavor of the month, gotta cry about something I guess.

HerbertWalker

12-05-2007, 12:52 AM

Take away tracking from the burst dps 3 second kill classes and give it to one or more of the extremely low dps classes.It should have been that way from the beginning. This solution is so obvious.End result would be: less Rogues and Predators, a few more Bards, many more plate tanks, and many more Shaman. Class Diversity.

toenukl

12-05-2007, 12:52 AM

<cite>GetSome wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guess you just out debated me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> O well But thanks for admitting that scouts are (the most solo'd class) so nobody really has to worry about being tracked and killed by a scout because where mostly solo and everybody else is mostly in groups. and good luck killing a warden 1v1 they don't need a group.</blockquote>Scouts are the number 1 PvP solo class, others still solo to harvest or quest, and that's when they are vulnerable...

mtwideen

12-05-2007, 01:38 AM

plz no more suggestions to make scouts need more tokens than others for pvp gear... at least mention somewhere to leave bards out of this equation.. people keep talking about "scouts" like bards aren't part of that group... well we are. So when u say scouts are overpowered... scouts have crazy burst damage and can kill people in 3 seconds, all the trackers can kill people so fast which is what makes it deadly... everything but bards are scouts to!!! we are bad enough as it is, plz specify... lol cause bards are not overpowered, track isn't overpowered for us (maybe defensively) so remember, don't generalize lol <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

toenukl

12-05-2007, 01:55 AM

<cite>mtwideen wrote:</cite><blockquote>plz no more suggestions to make scouts need more tokens than others for pvp gear... at least mention somewhere to leave bards out of this equation.. people keep talking about "scouts" like bards aren't part of that group... well we are. So when u say scouts are overpowered... scouts have crazy burst damage and can kill people in 3 seconds, all the trackers can kill people so fast which is what makes it deadly... everything but bards are scouts to!!! we are bad enough as it is, plz specify... lol cause bards are not overpowered, track isn't overpowered for us (maybe defensively) so remember, don't generalize lol <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Very good point, IF they made it were non-bard scouts were not able to win against 90% of the other classes, then maybe tracking would also not be a big deal. If a bard attacks me, it's usually a good fight and I don't mind. If a Ranger/Swash attacks me I'm usually dead, 80% of the time... k maybe 75% now since Focus Aim nerf =pIf tracking meant = more PvP targets= 50/50 chance to win fight= more PvP, I would not mind.

Snowlywhite

12-05-2007, 02:18 AM

you ppl. are really wierd... again, there are some ppl. who want to solo and some ppl. who want to group. Get over that old bs. about "this is a mmo, you should group". No, this is a game, and you should do pretty much what you want as long as you don't exploit/hack. And gasp, there are players who want to solo pvp... for multiple reasons, starting from the fact that some like it this way, or, personally, that I'm fed up with seeing ppl. with subpar gear/spells coming and say "let's group... you do the dmg., I'm here to cash in the fame... - no, thanks". Leaving aside that after years of grouping in various games I'm fed up with waitin' for a who's on the phone, b who just has to walk the dog in that very moment and c who just has to scratch his back and goes afk 15 mins for that...Now, obviously, no soloist should complain about the fact that 90% of the targets he meets are grouped nor that he can't wipe a whole group... eventually that he can even be killed by the said group(and quit that evac. crap, it's not like you sit there and wait to come up all the time...). Reasonable enough, right? And, if 90% of the ppl. are grouped, then you kinda need track in order to both avoid them since 2>1 in 95% of the cases(more then 2>1 in any case), and also in order to find those 10% which are actually doable... it's really a no brainer...Out of the 4 classes that everyone complains about, bar ranger which can pretty much negate the tank by sitting far away, eventually shrinked and, anway, way out of any aoe taunt range, the rest of them are meleers with should pretty much be totally anihilated by any non blind tank. Even more, while I think a rogue is great in group pve due to the arsenal of debuffs, I don't really see how it's so great in group pvp, since reducing the dps of something that's there to soak hits in the 1st place, not to dps, and things like that don't seems like the most glorious business in town... None of the "best setup for a group" posted around has more then 1 assasin/swash/brig in it and I'd say they're right; mine wouldn't have any... more power to the casters, so take that troub... also more utility.Now, noone moans if you take only 1 scout/group for track, and even then you'd eventually pick a bard for buffs... but ffs, don't come complain that a class designed to solo actually is able to solo you in that rare moment when... "I want to harvest" or whatever... Even more, most of the times it's not like you don't stand a chance if it'd be toe to toe, it's more like they manage to catch you pants down.Make up your mind... pick a soloist class and solo, or pick a group class, rock in groups and avoid being solo, but ffs, don't come saying that you want both to be able to be both great in group and nerf the solo classes so you make sure you're safe even when... you wanna harvest.And no, a game with 24 classes won't EVER be able to balance them both for solo and group... with 1/3rd of that and I'd say it's impossible. So, make up your mind and chose accordingly - either group desirability or solo desirability, or make your own mmo, grant yourself God powers and go 1 shot everyone around...

toenukl

12-05-2007, 02:29 AM

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>you ppl. are really wierd... again, there are some ppl. who want to solo and some ppl. who want to group. Get over that old bs. about "this is a mmo, you should group". No, this is a game, and you should do pretty much what you want as long as you don't exploit/hack. And gasp, there are players who want to solo pvp... for multiple reasons, starting from the fact that some like it this way, or, personally, that I'm fed up with seeing ppl. with subpar gear/spells coming and say "let's group... you do the dmg., I'm here to cash in the fame... - no, thanks". Leaving aside that after years of grouping in various games I'm fed up with waitin' for a who's on the phone, b who just has to walk the dog in that very moment and c who just has to scratch his back and goes afk 15 mins for that...Now, obviously, no soloist should complain about the fact that 90% of the targets he meets are grouped nor that he can't wipe a whole group... eventually that he can even be killed by the said group(and quit that evac. crap, it's not like you sit there and wait to come up all the time...). Reasonable enough, right? Out of the 4 classes that everyone complains about, bar ranger which can pretty much negate the tank by sitting far away, eventually shrinked and, anway, way out of any aoe taunt range, the rest of them are meleers with should pretty much be totally anihilated by any non blind tank. Even more, while I think a rogue is great in group pve due to the arsenal of debuffs, I don't really see how it's so great in group pvp, since reducing the dps of something that's there to soak hits in the 1st place, not to dps, and things like that don't seems like the most glorious business in town... None of the "best setup for a group" posted around has more then 1 assasin/swash/brig in it and I'd say they're right; mine wouldn't have any... more power to the casters, so take that troub.Now, noone moans if you take only 1 scout/group for track, and even then you'd eventually pick a bard for buffs... but ffs, don't come complain that a class designed to solo actually is able to solo you in that rare moment when... "I want to harvest" or whatever... Even more, most of the times it's not like you don't stand a chance if it'd be toe to toe, it's more like they manage to catch you pants down.Make up your mind... pick a soloist class and solo, or pick a group class, rock in groups and avoid being solo, but ffs, don't come saying that you want both to be able to be both great in group and nerf the solo classes so you make sure you're safe even when... you wanna harvest.And no, a game with 24 classes won't EVER be able to balance them both for solo and group... with 1/3rd of that and I'd say it's impossible. So, make up your mind and chose accordingly - either group desirability or solo desirability, or make your own mmo, grant yourself God powers and go 1 shot everyone around...</blockquote>Ugh, not again.. I just explained this... this thread is about tracking being overpowered due to the fact that solo scouts get tokens faster. Group PvP is balanced, but scouts still get more tokens because ppl sometimes HAVE to solo and tracking leads them right to em.By saying "Pick a soloist class" who is to say what is and is not a soloist class, apparently , due to recent nerfs, SOE believes that every class should be able to solo.. and why not? Why should there be a distinct soloist class? Please explain why one class should rise above the rest.And scouts are desirable in groups.. the best gank squad on Venekor has at least 3 rangers who just sit back, out of taunt range and take ppl out one by one in groups w/ ease. They also have a swashie who comes in and annihilates and debuffs whoever the rangers are attacking w/ his melee buffs from the group dirge.

Snowlywhite

12-05-2007, 02:33 AM

because, bar rangers... which are, well, rangers... the other 3 mentioned classes would be among the last to be picked in a group... so if you ain't picked in a group, you either better at solo or stop playing...

toenukl

12-05-2007, 02:37 AM

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>because, bar rangers... which are, well, rangers... the other 3 mentioned classes would be among the last to be picked in a group... so if you ain't picked in a group, you either better at solo or stop playing...</blockquote>so you're saying that if a Brigand/Swash and Dirge duo asked to join a PvP group they would be turned away? Must be a crappy group.

Patric

12-05-2007, 06:48 AM

GIVE EVERYBODY TRACK SEE THE SCOUTS START MOANING <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Snowlywhite

12-05-2007, 01:31 PM

<cite>Nail@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>because, bar rangers... which are, well, rangers... the other 3 mentioned classes would be among the last to be picked in a group... so if you ain't picked in a group, you either better at solo or stop playing...</blockquote>so you're saying that if a Brigand/Swash and Dirge duo asked to join a PvP group they would be turned away? Must be a crappy group.</blockquote>From a brig. point of view(yeah, the uber pvp solo machine or whatever...):Group wise(pvp only, not pve):cons(in what I'd consider to be order of importance):- 1 of the 2 classes that brings no group buffs whatsoever on the table(don't start with pathfinding...);- worst aoe dmg across the whole 24 classes;- 0 crowd control;- everything bar 1 ca - melee range - worst range;- physical dmg. - probably 70-80% of that on plate; now plate might not be that big, but definitelly is way less desirable to dps on then cloth as a physical dmg-er.- above average to good spike dps(but... why pick the 2nd best...); all that if you won't get retaunted right in the middle of the spike contrary to a pair of 2 casters who just have to do... "spike on x in 3" on vent and start a long cast...- good sustained dps(again... why pick the 2nd best);- a ton of debuffs out of which, bar the resist mitigation 2, noone would use in that group bar the brig. and eventually the tank from time to time... Fast pvp says aoe dmg > spike dmg > sustained dps > long debuffs.pros:- track(yes, that's the best I can bring);- evac;- ability to intrerupt... but if you're taunted, you can't even hope to proactively intrerupt something(fighter cas have usually .5s cast, your intrerupt castings have .4s cast with sailwind... good luck actively intrerupting anything.. you'll intrerupt when offensive stance procs. - random and when you stun or knockback, but again, you'll intrerupt something perfectly random, not the skill you'd like to intrerupt)Remove track and I'd say that, on the contrary, it must be a rather crappy group to take a brig. in it...Assasin - why take a class which requires stealth for everything when stealth can be removed even if you cough louder? All that in a group vs group fight where everyone tries to aoe as much as possible...swashie - ok, at least that one has a better aoe and 1 crowd control(with a very long recast as far as pvp is concerned).And wierd enough, the other 3 or so good solo classes - brawlers and sk(good because they can beat those 3 scout types which is the most of the solo population together with rangers - but rangers are ok group wise too) aren't too desirable in a group either...

KannaWhoopass

12-05-2007, 02:57 PM

OKIts isnt tracking per se that is the only problem. Its the package. You see if the tracking class was a slow moving class.. so track would help them start to run sooner. Or if the tracking class had limited means of escape if they were found. Or if they had terrible armor, or poor DPS , or limited means to prevent an opponent from escape.But that isnt the case. If Shamen had tracking . i doubt there would be this post .. if a mystic or defiler got the jump on you, who would care .. infact it would almost be like token delivery.But you see the problem is , a scout has every aspect of the game going for them . There is NO weakness to the scout class , Rangers may complain that when an enemy closes on them their dps goes down ... well by down they mean to the same level as 18 of the other classes. Assasins will complain that in a fight they cant stealth .. but what they mean is when fighting more than one opponent . they cant stealth because the other his hitting them .. Or that they can only unload one HUGE attack in combat because their incombat attacks that proc stealth need to cooldown. But you see a scout can see you comming, can watch you go .. track you across the entire zone without moving, just watch the moving X .. If surprised can use the cant be interupted Evac button .. Also have access to poisons to debuff any stat be a DoT or High Impact damage, or a snare . Have native snares to prevent escape .. can use potions to cure any effect placed on them .. You see there is no weakness to the scout .. i know i have played a ranger and a brigand , and a troub to level 50+, Back when evac worked in PvP as a brigand i would jump full groups .. see if i could kill 2 or 3 then loot and evac... run back and kill the rest. You see a small hole in the scout class would make it more balanced. I odnt think a troub or dirge having track botheres many people .. Because when you fight a dirge or troub .. they are for the most part good fights... they last several seconds to minutes .. dirges kiting you all over the place .. troubs mezzing/charming you backing away ranging dps .. it takes skill for those classes to win .. and there are several skilled players .. you can tell when you fight them .. But Rangers.Assasins/Swashies.Brigands have so much going for them .. that tracking pushes them to the OP category.. How often do you see thet General/Master scout out alone .. you are in a group .. but you already see him running away .. he saw ya comming .. chase him down for 2 min .. and poof evac. You see small changes can make a big difference.. Imaginf if assasins/rangers brigands/swashies could not use potions .. due to their lack of arcane smarts. Now if they were caught and snared .. they would be praying for the root to break .. or the DoT on them not to kill them .. or the Mezz to break.. They would have a weakness and as a result .. things like tracking .. and evac would be their tools to counter their weakness.. they would need to sneak up on you and kill you .before you rooted mezzed them .. They would use evac to escape the root they didnt see comming.. they would be counters to their weakness... and in that case ... fine. But scouts have counters available to every other classes strength , be it snares stuns stifles .. So if they offer to all NON scout classes an item to avoid tracking .. or give a class that skill as a group buff. The there exists a counter to tracking .. But untill there is either a weakness to the scout class that the rest of the classes can exploit .. or other classes can counter the scout tracking these treads will never end .. because they point out an obvious advantage to a set of classes on PvP servers..

Snowlywhite

12-05-2007, 03:59 PM

and noone contested those classes to be very good at solo pvp... what I don't agree with is removing the only thing that they actually bring to a group.either they stay very good at solo, or, decrease solo versatility but somehow increase group versatility/desirability - it's a minimal common sense thing. Noone would sacrifice 1/6 of the slots only for evac... and if you do, then you're prolly more concerned with running then with pvping...P.S - and I don't agree with the fact that soloing gives you faster tokens. Getting pvp gear is a way to get better at pvp, not a goal by itself. It's not like, when you get pvp gear, you get an auto end-game screen with a nice movie...

Spyderbite

12-05-2007, 05:29 PM

<cite>Patric@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>GIVE EVERYBODY TRACK SEE THE SCOUTS START MOANING <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>hehe.. I'm actually taking names in this thread. That way I can confidently reply "You have absolutely no reason to complain" when their own class is nerfed one day. And, when you start the snowball rolling.. it will happen to everyone's class eventually. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Its all fun and games to swing the nerf stick around.. until your own class is struck. Then it suddenly becomes unfair. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Willian

12-05-2007, 05:38 PM

<cite>Patric@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>GIVE EVERYBODY TRACK SEE THE SCOUTS START MOANING <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Ranger here, & I think they should do away with it altogether. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Jaydawarlord

12-05-2007, 05:40 PM

<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite> <blockquote>offer to all NON scout classes an item to avoid tracking .. or give a class that skill as a group buff. The there exists a counter to tracking .. But untill there is either a weakness to the scout class that the rest of the classes can exploit .. or other classes can counter the scout tracking these treads will never end .. because they point out an obvious advantage to a set of classes on PvP servers.. </blockquote> Scouts are good pvpers and that is undisputable. However, scouts do have weaknesses and it varies based on the class. Don't go saying that there is no weakness, you just have to figure it out. You listed a few, close in on rangers, dont let assassins go stealth... Besides, all classes have things that scouts can't do. Figure out your class or try a new one. Better yet, (and this is to everyone, not just Kannawhoopass), if you can't deal with what a class has, then go play PvE. (*sigh* and they say WoW kids are bad at complaining...)

MaCloud1032

12-05-2007, 05:42 PM

Ok i think ive seen enough of the we dont have anything for the group. Your JOB IN A GROUP IS TO DPS. yes you have no buffs that help the group unless you area a bard. Brig/Swash debuff the living [Removed for Content] out of players and can stun lock. Rangers you make the perfect MA in pvp you are out side of taunt range and can unload from RANGE. Assiassans have it worst of all as all of there suff is positional or must be stealthed. But a good assiassian has work around and will time out there shots.Brigs/Swash/Rangers/Assiassans you are single target heavey dpsI honestly have nothing againt "scouts" haveing track. In the solo game track is very OP no matter witch class had it.What i would like to see changes is that you should not be able to tell if a is hostel to you or not. If iam deep in a mountain and you happen to fly buy and see my foot prints going into that cave do you know what my name is or what con i am. No all you have see are footprints. Best you can come up with are hight/weight/ and maby race.I guess if scouts are suposeto be so usless in groups or other then why do so many people play them and how come so many are on the leader boards for most kills

voxranger

12-05-2007, 05:52 PM

<cite>Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Patric@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>GIVE EVERYBODY TRACK SEE THE SCOUTS START MOANING <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>hehe.. I'm actually taking names in this thread. That way I can confidently reply "You have absolutely no reason to complain" when their own class is nerfed one day. And, when you start the snowball rolling.. it will happen to everyone's class eventually. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Its all fun and games to swing the nerf stick around.. until your own class is struck. Then it suddenly becomes unfair. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>You know, the funny thing is, I keep seeing a common theme that basically says this: scouts have abilities that cannot be countered by other classes with purchased items or buffs, which makes them OP. Additionally, it keeps being raised that all scouts have to do is buy and use pots, etc to counter the other advantages classes may have over them. So let me get this straight:1. A healing potion has the same effect as a healers self-heal.2. Some kind of ward pot or thingy will have the same effect as manashield.3. And apparently we don't need hi mitigation because our alpha strike along with element of surprise is over the top.In some respects, I can understand the desire to take the X off the map zone wide, and actually I would have no problem with this. The fact of the matter is, despite all the whinning going on, very scouts will be bothered running all the way across a large zone to target player - I mean come on, no one wants to spend 75% of there time running from one end of the zone to the other. So fine, restrict the X to the area of the tracking range, but also expand the tracking so that is farther than right up my you know what......As an fyi, I was killed the other day I (I am a ranger) while fighting a a group mob of heroics buy 2 folks who just hid until my health was down to half then finished me off while i was fighting.....lost fame on that one....<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

mtwideen

12-05-2007, 06:28 PM

I gotta say, I am a scout (dirge) and I would hate it if scouts lost track... would it make people happier if we couldn't track lock?? only track people in range? anyways, that is a smaller change that maybe would make people happy, I still wouldn't be happy, but I know tracking is an amazing skill... anyways my point for this post was to say all those scouts that are saying scouts are useless in pvp groups... u obviously have not been in the right pvp groups. The "Gank group" on venekor mentioned earlier is probably my group. (When I say gank group, I don't mean gank solos and run from groups, cause we will chase down epic x2s just so we have someone to fight) and we rarely have a caster. Our usual groups are warden a monk tank, 2 (sometimes 3 but usually 2) rangers a swashy and me, the dirge. When we have a better group, one of those spots are switched with a healer, but quite often this is it, and we can still kill any group we come across because although scouts may not be able to do the overall dps of mages, we don't often take part in the "do damage so the healers run out of power and then kill them easily" our fights involved well timed spikes and taking them out one at a time, that is what scouts are good for.So don't say scouts are useless in groups other than track and evac, they are the king of spike dps, so they may not be the best group dps for running healers out of power... but for spiking people out, they are amazing.