RoK broken/nonupgrade necro spell issues

[Fayelynn]

<p>Hello,</p><p>I'm trying to get a list up about what spells are broken or don't upgrade M1 -> A3. I realize most people know these but sometimes you cant find an adept 3 to compare to what you have. That way other necros dont waste any plat if they never fix things.</p><p> Only a few things so far(only78 here atm):</p><p>1. Level 75 Warlock Pet Adept3 does less damage than Master 1 62 Heretic (even at level 78 where the pet is blue, resists seem unaffected but might matter fighting 84+ mobs)</p><p>2. Level 78 Rending does less than Rending Fervor Master 1</p><p>Please add anything you have noticed to the list.</p><p> Thanks,</p><p>Lemi</p>

[KBern]

<p>Adept 3 coil is not worth upgrading over previous master 1</p><p>Adept 3 (forget name) upgrade to Torrential Pestillence is lower in damage than previous master 1</p><p>Since our roots, nor stun do any damage, and supposedly being gray doesnt matter, I dont see a reason to upgrade these from the previous masters until a new master is found.</p><p>Old Master Charm Undead seems to work just fine on lvl 80 undead, even heroic...so not sure if this is worth upgrading right away either.</p>

[Gargamel]

<p>m,</p>

[Solarax]

ad3  77 tank pet has slightly more hp than m1 66 tank pet but has more resists and cant hold agro

[Sabutai]

<cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>ad3  77 tank pet has slightly more hp than m1 66 tank pet but has more resists and cant hold agro</blockquote>do you even play?  I have had zero problems with the undead knight at ad3 holding agro when properly specc'd

[Sabutai]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Adept 3 coil is not worth upgrading over previous master 1</p><p>Adept 3 (forget name) upgrade to Torrential Pestillence is lower in damage than previous master 1</p><p>Since our roots, nor stun do any damage, and supposedly being gray doesnt matter, I dont see a reason to upgrade these from the previous masters until a new master is found.</p><p>Old Master Charm Undead seems to work just fine on lvl 80 undead, even heroic...so not sure if this is worth upgrading right away either.</p></blockquote>The charm and stun are valid points but uh, my ad3 pandemic does more damage than my m2 torrent.  Talk off the EoF gear when comparing spells since the new robes are better to wear than the old EoF Fabled.  Same with coil.

[KBern]

Hmm I will have to go back and play around some but it was obviously when I compared them.

[Sabutai]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm I will have to go back and play around some but it was obviously when I compared them.</blockquote>then you have different spells than the rest of us.  I don't know how many threads I need to post this in.  Everybody is crying about how none of the adept 3s are worth getting.  I call BS.  So far I've only seen TWO, count em, TWO spells that don't do more damage than the previous tier.  Upgrade them already stop [Removed for Content] about it, SOE will smooth out the wrinkles eventually but people have got to stop complaining about this stuff.  The only way to really test out what a spell scales to is to have max INT and no + gear for each tier.  Already I've replaced every single piece of EoF fabled gear with quest stuff, so when we get to the end game gear for this tier the difference in spell quality will be about the same.This has been true in every instance where the level cap has increased, people just need to get over themselves already and just play the game.

[KBern]

<p>No, I think someone else needs to get over themselves.</p><p>I reviewed the two spells and the new ad 3 was less damage then the old M1.  Maybe it was gear at the time (Robe of SS) and I will go back and look, but drop the holier than everyone else attitude.  It is not impressive.</p>

[Eviljoe2]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm I will have to go back and play around some but it was obviously when I compared them.</blockquote>then you have different spells than the rest of us.  I don't know how many threads I need to post this in.  Everybody is crying about how none of the adept 3s are worth getting.  I call BS.  So far I've only seen TWO, count em, TWO spells that don't do more damage than the previous tier.  Upgrade them already stop [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it, SOE will smooth out the wrinkles eventually but people have got to stop complaining about this stuff.  The only way to really test out what a spell scales to is to have max INT and no + gear for each tier.  Already I've replaced every single piece of EoF fabled gear with quest stuff, so when we get to the end game gear for this tier the difference in spell quality will be about the same.This has been true in every instance where the level cap has increased, people just need to get over themselves already and just play the game.</blockquote><p>Hey bud!!!  </p><p>When people buy an upgraded spell that costs 8+ plat and is only one level below the max for that spell, and the stats show a lower damage number than the prior version of that spell, you better darn well expect people to be concerned about it.</p><p>And from most of the posts I have seen, we ARE waiting for the wrinkles to be smoothed out.  We are simply communicating in an attempt to only spend our dear, dear plat on ACTUAL upgrades........make sense????</p>

[Sabutai]

<cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm I will have to go back and play around some but it was obviously when I compared them.</blockquote>then you have different spells than the rest of us.  I don't know how many threads I need to post this in.  Everybody is crying about how none of the adept 3s are worth getting.  I call BS.  So far I've only seen TWO, count em, TWO spells that don't do more damage than the previous tier.  Upgrade them already stop [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it, SOE will smooth out the wrinkles eventually but people have got to stop complaining about this stuff.  The only way to really test out what a spell scales to is to have max INT and no + gear for each tier.  Already I've replaced every single piece of EoF fabled gear with quest stuff, so when we get to the end game gear for this tier the difference in spell quality will be about the same.This has been true in every instance where the level cap has increased, people just need to get over themselves already and just play the game.</blockquote><p>Hey bud!!!  </p><p>When people buy an upgraded spell that costs 8+ plat and is only one level below the max for that spell, and the stats show a lower damage number than the prior version of that spell, you better darn well expect people to be concerned about it.</p><p>And from most of the posts I have seen, we ARE waiting for the wrinkles to be smoothed out.  We are simply communicating in an attempt to only spend our dear, dear plat on ACTUAL upgrades........make sense????</p></blockquote>I read just fine, and there isn't a single spell that is doing less damage there is one pet buff that is a little borked and the mage pet, that's it.  That's why I posted the way I did, and why are you wasting 8 plat on an adept, if you are then you're more stupid than your post.  Farm it yourself or negotiate a cheaper price for the rare, I spent 4 plat on mine and only upgraded 10 spells cause the rest I knew I could live without.

[Eviljoe2]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm I will have to go back and play around some but it was obviously when I compared them.</blockquote>then you have different spells than the rest of us.  I don't know how many threads I need to post this in.  Everybody is crying about how none of the adept 3s are worth getting.  I call BS.  So far I've only seen TWO, count em, TWO spells that don't do more damage than the previous tier.  Upgrade them already stop [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it, SOE will smooth out the wrinkles eventually but people have got to stop complaining about this stuff.  The only way to really test out what a spell scales to is to have max INT and no + gear for each tier.  Already I've replaced every single piece of EoF fabled gear with quest stuff, so when we get to the end game gear for this tier the difference in spell quality will be about the same.This has been true in every instance where the level cap has increased, people just need to get over themselves already and just play the game.</blockquote><p>Hey bud!!!  </p><p>When people buy an upgraded spell that costs 8+ plat and is only one level below the max for that spell, and the stats show a lower damage number than the prior version of that spell, you better darn well expect people to be concerned about it.</p><p>And from most of the posts I have seen, we ARE waiting for the wrinkles to be smoothed out.  We are simply communicating in an attempt to only spend our dear, dear plat on ACTUAL upgrades........make sense????</p></blockquote>I read just fine, and there isn't a single spell that is doing less damage there is one pet buff that is a little borked and the mage pet, that's it.  That's why I posted the way I did, and why are you wasting 8 plat on an adept, if you are then you're more stupid than your post.  Farm it yourself or negotiate a cheaper price for the rare, I spent 4 plat on mine and only upgraded 10 spells cause the rest I knew I could live without.</blockquote><p>1) I have to assume people DO spend that kind of money on spells or people would not be selling them....I can think of a case where someone is going out adventuring, and has more plat at the moment than time and does not want to wait to farm it...That does not make it stupid, simply a difference of priority.</p><p>2) One who must resort to personal attacks to prove their point, cannot be very confident in the argument they are presenting.</p><p>Come down off of your pedistal and mingle with us commoners....you will find we are nice, and not nearly as dumb as you would have thought.</p>

[Sabutai]

<cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eviljoe2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm I will have to go back and play around some but it was obviously when I compared them.</blockquote>then you have different spells than the rest of us.  I don't know how many threads I need to post this in.  Everybody is crying about how none of the adept 3s are worth getting.  I call BS.  So far I've only seen TWO, count em, TWO spells that don't do more damage than the previous tier.  Upgrade them already stop [I cannot control my vocabulary] about it, SOE will smooth out the wrinkles eventually but people have got to stop complaining about this stuff.  The only way to really test out what a spell scales to is to have max INT and no + gear for each tier.  Already I've replaced every single piece of EoF fabled gear with quest stuff, so when we get to the end game gear for this tier the difference in spell quality will be about the same.This has been true in every instance where the level cap has increased, people just need to get over themselves already and just play the game.</blockquote><p>Hey bud!!!  </p><p>When people buy an upgraded spell that costs 8+ plat and is only one level below the max for that spell, and the stats show a lower damage number than the prior version of that spell, you better darn well expect people to be concerned about it.</p><p>And from most of the posts I have seen, we ARE waiting for the wrinkles to be smoothed out.  We are simply communicating in an attempt to only spend our dear, dear plat on ACTUAL upgrades........make sense????</p></blockquote>I read just fine, and there isn't a single spell that is doing less damage there is one pet buff that is a little borked and the mage pet, that's it.  That's why I posted the way I did, and why are you wasting 8 plat on an adept, if you are then you're more stupid than your post.  Farm it yourself or negotiate a cheaper price for the rare, I spent 4 plat on mine and only upgraded 10 spells cause the rest I knew I could live without.</blockquote><p>1) I have to assume people DO spend that kind of money on spells or people would not be selling them....I can think of a case where someone is going out adventuring, and has more plat at the moment than time and does not want to wait to farm it...That does not make it stupid, simply a difference of priority.</p><p>2) One who must resort to personal attacks to prove their point, cannot be very confident in the argument they are presenting.</p><p>Come down off of your pedistal and mingle with us commoners....you will find we are nice, and not nearly as dumb as you would have thought.</p></blockquote>really?  cause every comment mentioned in defense of this is that all the adept3s do less damage than the t7 masters.  Prove it.  that's my point everybody is bringing this up, its not true.  Sure people get impatient and spend unnecessary money on upgrades, but don't come crying when you do when there are alternatives to it.  Saying you had to drop 8-9 plat on a rare for an adept when there are cheaper means is just a stupid statement.  Sure people may not have as much time to harvest the rares, but to say somebody doesn't have the time to haggle with the person selling the rares, come on now.  Every adept3 aside from the rending and mage pet are actual upgrades atm, so upgrade them.

[BLIGHTBRINGER]

<p>i am necro and sage - problem is that folk are charging 6-8 plat sometimes for tynn clusters and can be 5 p for fire emeralds (can get as cheap as 4p sometimes now) and despite harvesting +++ i have never got even one tynn cluster. so if i buy them even by visiting people's houses to save broker fee it still costs a fortune, which is why a lot of adepts are 6-8 plat. if people sold rares cheaper we could sell the spells cheaper.   the fuel costs 20g too.  i'm happy for folk to approach me if they have the rares and quite a few do.  i'll consider dropping the price of mine a bit but i need to still make a profit.</p><p> Hellstone</p>

[KBern]

<p>I did go back and check and it was my EoF fabled set screwing up my spell reviews.  The ad 3 upgrades to TP and coil are slight upgrades from the master.</p><p>Pants and robe effects were making the old spells look like higher damage so if you use the old gear then these are better with the +bonus but once the old gear is replaced, the new AD3's will be better to use.</p>

[gr8scott]

<p>My guess is that the improvement from tier 7 to tier 8 will be a much smaller percentage than the typical tier improvement.</p><p>A big change with RoK is how the gear interacts so much with DPS.  If a character can increase their spell crit percentage by 15% and decrease cast time by 15% (rough rough guesses so don't hold me to them! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), then the DPS increase would be roughly 1.15 * (1/0.85) or 35% right there.  </p><p>Add in the ability to enhance spell damage like crazy and you have a tier that is well above average in terms of gear impacting DPS.  To balance the tier, I would expect spell DPS upgrades to be somewhat lower than usual.</p><p>HOWEVER, since these gear upgrades do not impact the pet DPS in the same way, the pets themselves should be normal tier upgrades.  If pet spells and combat arts get the same small upgrade as our spells, the summoners will lose DPS relative to the casters that have all of their DPS enhanced by gear.</p><p>GS </p>

[Kunou_1]

I don't know if its just me or not but teachings of the underworld (m1) is only giving me and a group 8 INT. I have canceled and recast and also tried solo but its still bugged for me. Is this happening to anyone else ?

[KBern]

<cite>Kunou_1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if its just me or not but teachings of the underworld (m1) is only giving me and a group 8 INT. I have canceled and recast and also tried solo but its still bugged for me. Is this happening to anyone else ?</blockquote>You have checked this solo and in group?  The only reason I ask is if you have checked this in a group with another class with an int buff it may be screwing up your stats.

[Fayelynn]

<p>Looks like they fixed the necromancer aa line to work with out T8 pets, thats good progress.</p><p>But to add to the list:</p><p>80: glrisly protection is a joke, HUGE decreases as you would expect, but the pluses to defence, mit, etc are either no better, or 1% or 1-2 points... its sad</p><p>Thanks,</p><p>Lemi</p>

[Supp]

<p>Fayelynn, I haven't had a chance to go over that spell. So if you could answer this for me...</p><p>The prior teir fighter defensive stance was 58, and so therefore it was very costly because you know how the DoF masters were! However the def stance mit % increases at every tier was exactly the same, so there was no loss with using a T5 master. Anyway, Ive been wondering if using the T7 necro defensive stance has merit. For example, the huge losses you refer to, perhaps they are significantly lessened by using a T7 master, which isnt a problem because of negligable boosts of the T8 master?</p><p>It's just something Ive been wondering about.</p>

[Sabutai]

<cite>Lemi@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Looks like they fixed the necromancer aa line to work with out T8 pets, thats good progress.</p><p>But to add to the list:</p><p>80: glrisly protection is a joke, HUGE decreases as you would expect, but the pluses to defence, mit, etc are either no better, or 1% or 1-2 points... its sad</p><p>Thanks,</p><p>Lemi</p></blockquote>Not sure what you're trying to point out here.  There are a couple stats on the defense stance that don't change from tier to tier but from quality to quality.  % hate gain, % health change from quality level.  The decrease int and attack are static throughout the whole spell.  Spell mitigation is a joke through the whole game so its not really something you need to look at.  Aggression increase should be small since the overall skill is small ~400.  The most important aspects of this spell is the damage proc and the hate gain proc.  And both increase quite nicely in t8 considering the previous spell is 70.

[Fayelynn]

<p>The damage proc differs by 2 points, and the hate gain by 9(points not %), and the magic mit stays the same.... thats not really an upgrade.</p><p>The last change was ward M1 -> bulwark ad3 was 896 -> 980, so I would expect about and 80-90 resist increase. considering mobs hit MUCH harder, and we got a very small HP updrage on our new tank(and thats going from the old ad3)</p><p>And if you think it does not matter, equip a FBR and see how much better your tank tanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>edit: oh and i guess to answer supples question, yes It still looks better to use the old master T7 instead of the T8 ad3, but the prev tier this was untrue... I think thats the answer your looking for, will check again in a bit, in a dungeon atm.</p>

[Sabutai]

<cite>Lemi@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The damage proc differs by 2 points, and the hate gain by 9(points not %), and the magic mit stays the same.... thats not really an upgrade.</p><p>The last change was ward M1 -> bulwark ad3 was 896 -> 980, so I would expect about and 80-90 resist increase. considering mobs hit MUCH harder, and we got a very small HP updrage on our new tank(and thats going from the old ad3)</p><p>And if you think it does not matter, equip a FBR and see how much better your tank tanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>edit: oh and i guess to answer supples question, yes It still looks better to use the old master T7 instead of the T8 ad3, but the prev tier this was untrue... I think thats the answer your looking for, will check again in a bit, in a dungeon atm.</p></blockquote>Well post the numbers for the damage proc cause that's the only thing that would prevent it from an upgrade.  The hate gain is as well but you have to understand that the hate gain reduction is the same from the old tier's ad3 and M1 its how the spell line works.  Not sure what a FBR is but I can assure you that spell mitigation means  ZIP the pet only sports like 500 an extra 1k doesn't make a lick of difference.

[Cadaveria]

The damage spell AD3's, while not huge, are upgrades to my old M1's. I'm rather heated about the Mage Pet though. Seems like that's something that should have been cleared up in a hotfix a few weeks ago.I could care less about Fervor honestly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> T7 upgrade was like 1 or 2 points faster than previous version. I'm still using lvl 54 (right?) version of it. Maybe ill upgrade it when we hit T10 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gargamel]

<p>I'm lvl 80 with most of my T8 ad3's</p><p>For Necro it appears that most ad3's are only a very slight (negligible) increase in spell dmg from T7 masters.</p><p>On dot's I'm looking at anywhere from single digits to 20ish... on the big lifetap its more.  All have higher resistability as you'd expect.</p><p>Some are downgrades... like our group INT buff is 85 as T7, and only 81 as a T8ad3 (I think, it was under 85 so I didn't upgrade)Some don't make sense... like our pet heal and direct heal... the T8 ad3 gives slighly more hp but WAY WORSE hp/power conversion to targetOthers like "Demilich" our new version of lich are worse... ad3 of demilich procs for an extra 11dmg or so, but power regen is 1.4% as opposed to Archlich M1 which is 1.6% -- so DO NOT upgrade to Demilich ad3 if you value power more than the extra bit of dmg.</p><p>Then there are a few which are good... ironically our pet power tap is an upgrade even at T8 app4, compared to T7 master -- for what thats worth.</p><p>Overall I'd check values on broker for ad3 before you buy the rare or harvest for hours, since for most T7 mastered people, the only real upgrade will be with a T8 master.</p>

[Fayelynn]

<p>Just so there is no mis-info The lich line always works like that 1.4 adept3 -> 1.6 master I (used to say 2% but was always 1.6 due to not showing decimal places). Granted its still not an "upgrade" untill I would say add 30-40 more damage onto the proc effect?</p><p>And as for rending, It looks like the scout pet might be _really_ good for single target dps in RoK, and seeing the total lack of group mob encounters, it would be nice to have an upgrade. (vampirisim + bloodpact +shadowblade actually do some nice dps, and shadowblade alone seems to beat out my mage both adept 3 at 80 on a single target  solo, ymmv depending on group makeup)</p>

[Jasuo]

Wait till you get to the later tiers of RoK raiding and watch that precious hit percentage drop like a rock...mage pet all the way.

[Naughtesn]

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Fayelynn, I haven't had a chance to go over that spell. So if you could answer this for me...</p><p>The prior teir fighter defensive stance was 58, and so therefore it was very costly because you know how the DoF masters were! However the def stance mit % increases at every tier was exactly the same, so there was no loss with using a T5 master. Anyway, Ive been wondering if using the T7 necro defensive stance has merit. For example, the huge losses you refer to, perhaps they are significantly lessened by using a T7 master, which isnt a problem because of negligable boosts of the T8 master?</p><p>It's just something Ive been wondering about.</p></blockquote>All my pets buffs are currently t7 M1 - my cost/benefit analysis pushed me in this direction - I will be waiting for M1 T8 before upgrading.