None

[inshiningarmor]

<p>   I give up.  Too many are happy with being subpar</p>

[Eugam]

Why venting and asking for help ? You betrayed and all is fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Many of your points are only valid for you. Not for me. Its not about wrong or right, its about playing this way or the other.For example i am looking forward to the 40 AA. My dog never dies. I can heal anything from solo to group content. I am usually a scout group healer on raids and it is almost impossible to burn through my powerpool in that role. I am able to be a MT shaman if needed and i usually have no powerproblems in that role, because the MT group has usually the highest regeneration rate in raid. Soloing i rip through 3-4 RoK mobs at once and quite a few other classes would call that a beast and definetely not underpowered.

[Banditman]

Yea, subpar is WAY too strong a term.We are about 500 DPS short of being called significantly overpowered.We heal well, we deal damage well, we solo pretty effectively.There are certainly some situations that are not good for us, and we definitely lost a little in our debuffing that I think could stand to be replaced, but seriously, Mystics are a pretty strong class in the overall scheme of things.If you want to feel subpar, try solo'ing as a Troubador in RoK.  You'll be feeling some pain.

[inshiningarmor]

<p>I deleted the original post.   In raids we are subpar.  In RoK soloing we are ok.   How long are you going to solo at level 80?   I could care less about our soloing ability.... IF I was worried about that I would not play a MMORPG.   I am worried about constantly loosing ground to other HEALERS.   I also have a 77 Troub and a 75 Dirge.   On Raids they are kings.   In groups high level they are kings... so they cannot solo well... I can live with that.  I posted more on the behalf of the endgame and keep getting " BUT we are GREAT soloing" or " hey I am a great healer in a PU Raid" etc.   </p>

[Banditman]

You have trouble healing your group in a raid?  Which raid specifically?  I'm not having any difficulty at all, and now, with 20 more AA's to drop in the KoS tree, I'll have dogdog to help me again, making it even easier.I'm curious which raids you have trouble with, perhaps we can help you find a better method.

[inshiningarmor]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have trouble healing your group in a raid?  Which raid specifically?  I'm not having any difficulty at all, and now, with 20 more AA's to drop in the KoS tree, I'll have dogdog to help me again, making it even easier.I'm curious which raids you have trouble with, perhaps we can help you find a better method.</blockquote> I raid avatars and I need no help on any healer class.   go back to your Pugs

[Oneira]

Fellow mystics, there are some significant problems with the class that the OP was pointing out.  Sure, we're a good class overall but. . .every other healer class including defilers have either shorter heals or casting time reductions or uninterruptibility for a duration.  We have nothing.  This makes that 5 sec group ward a big problem.  Time is a big problem for us.  Our spells take time, a lot of it.  2 of our EOF lines simply suck.  We have significant Pow efficiency problems.  We get no pow reductions to any of our spells, nor any kind of pow regen.  Most of the other healers do.  Add to that the fact that we don't get any Wis buffs and our pow is consistently lower than almost all the other healers.  Our health/pow buff helps to be sure, but we're still significantly behind most other healers on pow.The melee druid spec is good no doubt.  And it's the only spec that's any good.  Mystics have no other reasonable options than that one.

[Banditman]

<cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have trouble healing your group in a raid?  Which raid specifically?  I'm not having any difficulty at all, and now, with 20 more AA's to drop in the KoS tree, I'll have dogdog to help me again, making it even easier.I'm curious which raids you have trouble with, perhaps we can help you find a better method.</blockquote> I raid avatars and I need no help on any healer class.   go back to your Pugs</blockquote>When you cannot argue logically, fall back on insults.  That tells me all I need to know, good luck.

[tikasa]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>inshiningarmor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have trouble healing your group in a raid?  Which raid specifically?  I'm not having any difficulty at all, and now, with 20 more AA's to drop in the KoS tree, I'll have dogdog to help me again, making it even easier.I'm curious which raids you have trouble with, perhaps we can help you find a better method.</blockquote> I raid avatars and I need no help on any healer class.   go back to your Pugs</blockquote>When you cannot argue logically, fall back on insults.  That tells me all I need to know, good luck.</blockquote>I think he is rather upset that you insulted him first.   Same statement I would be as well.

[Banditman]

Yes, I can see how offering to help would be construed as an insult.  I'll try not to let it happen again.

[thedu]

Came into this late, but for anyone who is starting or coming back to Mystics know that  Banditman was the class rep for a long time and did much to improve it;  I argued with him/her in the past and BM knows the Mystic class immensely well.  If you can't posit your arguments well and resort to denunciations what kind of help exactly do you expect?

[MRRX]

Not everybody raids, nor thinks that soloing is unimportant.After returning from a six-month absence I find my mystic fun and powerful.     I can't blast through 3-4 solo RoK mobs, maybe because I have mostly treasured gear.    I can solo effectively and enjoyably.I expect to fill the KoS line and 45 points or so of the EoF line of AA's with useful abilities, and I'm not going to worry about the bad ones.     Soloing as a mystic, finally, is an enjoyable task versus being something grindy - which, unfortunately, is the way I got to 70.Good luck to you raiders, but don't ask them to ruin our soloability on your way to improvement.<a href="http://mrrx.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mrrx.wordpress.com</a>

[tikasa]

  If mr BM is an expert on Mystics you are a hopeless bunch indeed.  Glad I am a Defiler!

[thedu]

<cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote>  If mr BM is an expert on Mystics you are a hopeless bunch indeed.  Glad I am a Defiler!</blockquote>I haven't seen the original post so I'm not sure what the initial issues were. If you know what the issues are let's hear your take on it;  Simple statements such this don't lend any credence to your expertise in any way shape or form.  BM helped push through the mitigation issues with Wards that were major problem from the beginning.  I would take his/her opinion over yours any day since I haven't one iota of anything you know.Put up or shut up.

[Rayche]

<cite>thedump wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tikasa wrote:</cite><blockquote>  If mr BM is an expert on Mystics you are a hopeless bunch indeed.  Glad I am a Defiler!</blockquote>I haven't seen the original post so I'm not sure what the initial issues were. If you know what the issues are let's hear your take on it;  Simple statements such this don't lend any credence to your expertise in any way shape or form.  BM helped push through the mitigation issues with Wards that were major problem from the beginning.  I would take his/her opinion over yours any day since I haven't one iota of anything you know.Put up or shut up.</blockquote>Nice.Anyway... I believe Banditman's recent credibility has been hurt by his posts in the Mystic threads involving poor quest reward itemization in RoK where he's happy to wear Leather or Cloth as a reward if it has a nice effect on it, where the rest of the Mystic community does not feel the same. Yes, that's out of the context of this thread, but I'm bringing it up to give a more full background for the hostility. (It frustrates me that BM won't stop posting that things are fine when they are commonly viewed as NOT fine, but I don't want to sound hostile, I just share the opposite opinion that BM does.)inshiningarmor has been in a number of threads involving rants about poor itemization and poor AA choices for Mystics, so my guess is that these were the core of his original post.He has since deleted his post and betrayed to a Defiler where he's apparently quite happy, so it's a rather moot point by now.But the "Put up or shut up" part would probably be due to a lack of useful places to put your 51st through 70th AA in the EoF tree.That and a lack of Chain and Plate healer items in RoK.I would also guess that inshiningarmor posted something to this effect: "Mystics SUCK in RoK! I can't do my job and this game totally favors the Defilers! Fix it or I'm betraying!"To which Banditman responded with "Everything is fine for me, what are you doing wrong?"Which sounds condescending.A proper interchange between both parties would probably have looked more like this:Inshiningarmor: "Item A, B, C, and D give Defilers xxx amount more %Melee Crit and %Spell Crit which defilers benefit from and Mystics don't, thus widening the already uncomfortably large gap in percieved effectiveness, we need more viable options for Melee Specced Mystics."Inshiningarmor: "Defilers have X, Y and Z AA trees for EoF that greatly enhance their ability to heal and deal damage, while we can only enhance useless cures and our ability to cast a rez we already don't cast... this needs to be looked at."Inshiningarmor: "If Sony is going to only make leather armor for chain and plate healers then Shamans and Clerics need a buff to enhance their mitigation the way Druids can, or remove the penalty for wearing armor below your class.."Banditman's response would most likely have changed.What I don't think Banditman is understanding here is the RELATIVE power shift. Yes, I can play my Mystic just fine and kill solo mobs so far the same as I always could, but if other classes are being given a 2-3x fold increase to my 1.5x fold increase in RoK my desirability lowers, as does my ability to compete in the game world in general. This has effects across the board, from economical to regular grinding to raiding. If you don't understand the effects this power shift could have then you aren't nearly as experienced at this game as you think you are.

[tikasa]

<p>Before KoS Mystics were great, but they keep going downhill.  BM has no clue how mitigation works in respect to types and tiers.    he is content to say all with Mystics is hunky dory and let it go.   Personnally I want Mystics to again be a viable choice in raids and better in group and solo.   The current itemization favor druids as healers, or healers that stand back and heal.   BM seem to be ok with that, but some of us are not.   SoE made Mystics a MELEE healer and needs to make gear that FITS that role.  NOT gear we can settle for like BM is willing to do so easily.   If you read the beta boards Inshining was one of those fighting to help Mystics.   Even there a few said we are good enough or overpowered.   Some of us have one of each healer and know EXACTLY how underpowered Mystics are compared to the rest.  BM has a Mystic ALT and a Conj main?    Inshining has 1 of each healer he raids and groups with.   I have 4 70+ and 2 50+  I also know Mysics are getting the shaft.  I am hoping they get back on track before my lil Mystic gets to 80.   My Defiler was a Mystic at one time.</p><p>   If you want to settle for whatever scraps SoE thows Mystics fine, but [I cannot control my vocabulary] saying we are fine if you do not know how to break down a parse to show exactly how Mit/avoidance works.   BM has no clue on that and his ignorance in the other posts shows it.</p>

[xandez]

ok, lets face the truth here:ALL healer classes in eq2 are overpowered atm excluding raiding.If you dont know that, go solo / small group with ANY healer class and compare that to classes that can not heal or dont have any buffs to offer to the group. You always have a spot in grps and soloing is soooo EAZY.I mean... ALL healers can heal well. Yes they can. Some may heal a little bit better than others, but... in the end they all can do their job very well. And of course there are differences due to gear and such, but lets not go into that here...ALL healers can do DPS nowadays. Yes they really can. Not necessarily uber DPS but they still can. In fact i would say that the healer classes are amongst the best in solo/small grp / grp play because you can do it "all"....I started this game playing a ranger, then i created a berserker, after that a warden... then a mystic, inquisitor, fury and paladin. I havent tested the really OP necro (come on, NUKES + pet (a real one, not a killmewith1hit doggie)+ heal= meh?) but i can still say that the bot the warden and mystic i played to higher levels (70 and 63) really felt good. (The inqu stayed at lvl 32 or so since i lost interest in that...)So, WHY are mystics subpar and compared to what? Other healers? Is our new eq sucky? what is it? Is this a problem presented by RoK? If it is, i cant see it since i dont have to RoK (hahahaha). If things really god that bad... im happy i didnt buy the expansion and can continue to feel nice with my ub4h mystic! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />*edit*oh and i like to play melee with my healers... and stand back and heal is not an option for me... some of you were talking about mitigation and avoidance... i could wear leather if it offered better stats and other effects over chain any day. The difference is not really that big. In solo you will notice it somewhat, in grps prolly not... atleast you shouldnt. In raids? nope.However, i understand that the principal here of eg. lacking chain pieces and whatnot is whats this is about... I just wanted to post what i posted because not all of use feel subpar and i also wanted to point out why i dont feel that... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />*edit2*oh and could as many of you guys betray to defiler as possible so the rest of us could get our spell upgrades cheaper, thx!++Xan

[Ordate]

<cite>xandez wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok, lets face the truth here:ALL healer classes in eq2 are overpowered atm excluding raiding.If you dont know that, go solo / small group with ANY healer class and compare that to classes that can not heal or dont have any buffs to offer to the group. You always have a spot in grps and soloing is soooo EAZY.I mean... ALL healers can heal well. Yes they can. Some may heal a little bit better than others, but... in the end they all can do their job very well. And of course there are differences due to gear and such, but lets not go into that here...ALL healers can do DPS nowadays. Yes they really can. Not necessarily uber DPS but they still can. In fact i would say that the healer classes are amongst the best in solo/small grp / grp play because you can do it "all"....I started this game playing a ranger, then i created a berserker, after that a warden... then a mystic, inquisitor, fury and paladin. I havent tested the really OP necro (come on, NUKES + pet (a real one, not a killmewith1hit doggie)+ heal= meh?) but i can still say that the bot the warden and mystic i played to higher levels (70 and 63) really felt good. (The inqu stayed at lvl 32 or so since i lost interest in that...)So, WHY are mystics subpar and compared to what? Other healers? Is our new eq sucky? what is it? Is this a problem presented by RoK? If it is, i cant see it since i dont have to RoK (hahahaha). If things really god that bad... im happy i didnt buy the expansion and can continue to feel nice with my ub4h mystic! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />*edit*oh and i like to play melee with my healers... and stand back and heal is not an option for me... some of you were talking about mitigation and avoidance... i could wear leather if it offered better stats and other effects over chain any day. The difference is not really that big. In solo you will notice it somewhat, in grps prolly not... atleast you shouldnt. In raids? nope.However, i understand that the principal here of eg. lacking chain pieces and whatnot is whats this is about... I just wanted to post what i posted because not all of use feel subpar and i also wanted to point out why i dont feel that... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />*edit2*oh and could as many of you guys betray to defiler as possible so the rest of us could get our spell upgrades cheaper, thx!++Xan</blockquote><p>Mostly where mystics feel like they are falling behind and rightfully so is the raiding scene.  This is a problem that has slowly evolved but saw a large jump with EoF as we bent over and got nailed with no reach around on our aa tree.</p><p>Also because of how defiler healing works coupled with skills to get back mana, they have less issues with mana regen then mystics do.  This has become a much more serious issue with the inability to item swap as that helped us keep up some.</p><p>Yes player + gear will deffinately offset this by a good bit.  But here in lies the rub.  Lets say an excellently played mystic is about as good as a good played defiler.  Now imagine what that mystic could do playing a defiler.  Thats the problem.  After my old guild broke up, I went looking for a new home.  Some guilds with no mystics in their guilds asked if I would betray.  Thats a sign right there that there is a problem.</p><p>I would agree that on the solo scene we arent bad like any other healer.  We can't kill solo mobs as quickly as some other non priest classes, but we have the ability to kill bigger things and do things safer.  But soloing is rather irrelevant for what we are talking about.</p>

[xandez]

<cite>Ordate wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But soloing is rather irrelevant for what we are talking about.</p></blockquote>k, then you could wear cloth or leather, does that help? If not, then we do have a problem <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan

[Banditman]

If you want to talk about raiding great, let's.What is it that you're having a problem with now that you weren't prior to EoF?Yes, our EoF tree sucks.  I'm hardcore on record as saying that.  It's terrible, with two complete trees of utter uselessness.I'm completely baffled by the complete lack of specific points to which we need answers.  Oh, sure, I hear everyone saying "Mystics suck in raids" . . . great . . . why?  What is it that we do or don't do?  We aren't MT group preferred?Our EoF AA's are not a big enough deal to explain the angst.

[Rayche]

Wow Bandit, you almost completely ignored Ordate's very well written explanation of the problem.Please go read over his post again.1: We don't regenerate enough mana to compete with Defilers. (Cannibalize should be a SHAMAN thing, not defiler thing.)2: Our heals/wards cast too slow.3: We don't have ANY spell consolidation whatsoever. (We Debuff, OR heal, OR DPS.. not all 3.. Defilers do.)4: Toss in the fact that the chain gear out there doesn't in any way cater to the mystic class, and the fact that I quite often in groups and raids wind up eating a round or two from mobs and my mitigation has saved my bacon enough times that I'm not satisfied putting on leather or cloth armor.5: Our Fabled set bonuses are a joke. (Consider the fabled set to be the carrot that keeps us pushing on towards 80... this is a rotten carrot.)

[Sekkong]

There is only 1 or 2 peices of the ROK set ill use. and wont be as healing gear. ;-D.

[cggerth]

<cite>Rayche@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow Bandit, you almost completely ignored Ordate's very well written explanation of the problem.Please go read over his post again.1: We don't regenerate enough mana to compete with Defilers. (Cannibalize should be a SHAMAN thing, not defiler thing.)2: Our heals/wards cast too slow.3: We don't have ANY spell consolidation whatsoever. (We Debuff, OR heal, OR DPS.. not all 3.. Defilers do.)4: Toss in the fact that the chain gear out there doesn't in any way cater to the mystic class, and the fact that I quite often in groups and raids wind up eating a round or two from mobs and my mitigation has saved my bacon enough times that I'm not satisfied putting on leather or cloth armor.5: Our Fabled set bonuses are a joke. (Consider the fabled set to be the carrot that keeps us pushing on towards 80... this is a rotten carrot.)</blockquote>I thought I'd correct a few things.  but from the sound of it, I'll just be flamed out of here along with bandit. 2.) defiler heal/wards are the same time.  2s small heal, 3s large heal.  2 or 3s ward (forget which) 5s group ward.  There is nothing "extra" we get to speed these up.  We use less power but we also use our own health to cast the heals.  Trust me, you do not know panic until you are so low on health, try to cast a heal, and receive "not enough health to cast that"3.) defilers debuff, we heal, and we can DPS.  we cannot do all at the same time.  our heals/wards are seperate from our stat debuffs, which are seperate from our DPS.  the only things that are halfway consolidated are our DPS and poison/disease debuff.  Rarely can I do DPS on a raid as I'm focusing on debuff and healing.  In a serious raid where we are evenly matched (not overpowered easy raid), I do not have time to do any DPS.

[Rayche]

<cite>cggerth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I thought I'd correct a few things.  but from the sound of it, I'll just be flamed out of here along with bandit. 2.) defiler heal/wards are the same time.  2s small heal, 3s large heal.  2 or 3s ward (forget which) 5s group ward.  There is nothing "extra" we get to speed these up.  We use less power but we also use our own health to cast the heals.  Trust me, you do not know panic until you are so low on health, try to cast a heal, and receive "not enough health to cast that"3.) defilers debuff, we heal, and we can DPS.  we cannot do all at the same time.  our heals/wards are seperate from our stat debuffs, which are seperate from our DPS.  the only things that are halfway consolidated are our DPS and poison/disease debuff.  Rarely can I do DPS on a raid as I'm focusing on debuff and healing.  In a serious raid where we are evenly matched (not overpowered easy raid), I do not have time to do any DPS.</blockquote>Nobody is trying to flame anybody. There's some frustration growing from debate here. You also are providing your personal input on things and have only disputed 2 out of the 5 things that are at issue here. (I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall where Bandit is concerned, and it's taken over a week to get this frustrated, but my intent is still not to flame anyone.)I think the things I was referring to is the improved reuse timers on Fearful chant (Self aggro reducer), Eidolic Ward/Purulence (Emergency group ward), Earie avenger, Shroud (Increased ward amount), Voice of the ancestors (cast time reduction), Spiritual circle (Heal totem), and of course soul ward (Which I'm still not sure is a great spell really heh.)You'll notice I didn't say Defilers got faster casting wards/heals... I'd prefer we BOTH had ways to reduce the painfully slow casting times <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />You can however DPS and Debuff at the same time.I'd trade the rez line for the ability to use my equivalent abilities faster (Although we have one of those..)I personally would like to see more attention spent on the Spell consolidation (All classes involved), Mystic AA line and the itemization in Kunark.I don't think you disagree from what I understand.