Lack of technology?

[BarrelRoll]

<p>If you take a look at EverQuest and EverQuest II, in 500 years no technology really changes or advances at all. From what you've seen in-game, you can assume that Norrath would be in it's High Middle Ages. You see clockworks and mechanical steam-powered devices, yet no cannons or early muskets?</p><p> Norrath really lacks some serious brains! What do you think?</p>

[Kamimura]

You need to take into account what has been going on in the past 500 years, though. Giant wars, mass destruction, races being pushed from their homelands, travel cut way down. People have been busy enough just trying to survive.

[BarrelRoll]

Eh, if they would have took the time to look into future advancements they could have halted any invasion upon their homeland. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[troodon]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eh, if they would have took the time to look into future advancements they could have halted any invasion upon their homeland. </blockquote>Yeah, because this is exactly how people thought in the middle ages..... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Kamimura]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eh, if they would have took the time to look into future advancements they could have halted any invasion upon their homeland. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Right. Remind me again when they had the time for that? Even without wars, how about the rending and the shattering? There was still a ton of things going on..

[Ama]

Actually I do believe an advancement in technology has taken place if you are willing to carefully look for it.  The little gnome in the baubbleshire *If I remember correctly* talkes about is special frezorator contraption.  Also one thing I noticed in Klak'anon is the clockworks are able to use magical abilities.  500 years before EQ1 in EQOA clockworks could only use their appendages to attack never knowing how to use magic. 

[Jindrack]

The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?

[Rainmare]

the only race in EQ that would even consider making something like firearms would be the Gnomes. and after a few of them died in explosions, they probably wouldn't bother with it much after that. much like the clockworks. gnomes are the only beings that understand and can build clockworks effectively. no other race has the foggiest clue how to do it. and after Ak'anon became Klak'anon, even the gnomes clockwork technology has been shoved back.Oh, and I seriously doubt a musketball would stop a giant or an ogre, much less a Planar being like say, the ones that invaded the Nexus.and I bet the Avatar of War would have laughed at them if they'd tried it on him.

[Kamimura]

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh, and I seriously doubt a musketball would stop a giant or an ogre, much less a Planar being like say, the ones that invaded the Nexus.</blockquote>Oh come now, be reasonable! If powerful magic couldn't be of help, surely muskets are the answer! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote><p>Fireball you say? How about a high explosive depleted uranium tank round? Tanks, jeeps, fighter jets, bombers, helicopters, rifles, explosives, nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons beat magic anyday. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p> If you really look at it, not everyone on Norrath knows magic. I really don't think the Avatar of War could take so many shots from HEAT rounds that he would still be standing. For some reason, I think of the movie Transformers when you say " Avatar of War ". High heat sabot rounds are the only weapons that can damage their heavy armor. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p> Either way, Norrath is FAR from any technology you would see on Earth.</p>

[TheSpin]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote><p>Fireball you say? How about a high explosive depleted uranium tank round? Tanks, jeeps, fighter jets, bombers, helicopters, rifles, explosives, nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons beat magic anyday. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p> If you really look at it, not everyone on Norrath knows magic. I really don't think the Avatar of War could take so many shots from HEAT rounds that he would still be standing. For some reason, I think of the movie Transformers when you say " Avatar of War ". High heat sabot rounds are the only weapons that can damage their heavy armor. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p> Either way, Norrath is FAR from any technology you would see on Earth.</p></blockquote>I think someone's been playing too much HALO 2.  If EQ2 players wanted this stuff it would be here or they'd be playing another game.

[Rainmare]

okay, then let me explain the Avatar of War to you. the Avatar of War was an ogre being that was imbued with divine power from the God of War to be his represent him on Norrath. he wielded Soulfire, one of the most mysterious and apparently powerful weapons on Norrath's surface. not only could he probably take a hit from a tank, but the shell would probably barely dent his body armor.disease and poison would barely touch him. if fact, the only being that was capable of the feat, and did beat him, was the Avatar of Tranquility, and equally powerful being.

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote><p>Fireball you say? How about a high explosive depleted uranium tank round? Tanks, jeeps, fighter jets, bombers, helicopters, rifles, explosives, nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons beat magic anyday. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p> If you really look at it, not everyone on Norrath knows magic. I really don't think the Avatar of War could take so many shots from HEAT rounds that he would still be standing. For some reason, I think of the movie Transformers when you say " Avatar of War ". High heat sabot rounds are the only weapons that can damage their heavy armor. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p> Either way, Norrath is FAR from any technology you would see on Earth.</p></blockquote>I think someone's been playing too much HALO 2.  If EQ2 players wanted this stuff it would be here or they'd be playing another game.</blockquote>Please be aware that we're talking about a what-if theory. Also, I haven't played Halo 2 in a LONG time. I haven't even played it on Xbox Live. ( *Cough* Stupid )

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>okay, then let me explain the Avatar of War to you. the Avatar of War was an ogre being that was imbued with divine power from the God of War to be his represent him on Norrath. he wielded Soulfire, one of the most mysterious and apparently powerful weapons on Norrath's surface. not only could he probably take a hit from a tank, but the shell would probably barely dent his body armor.disease and poison would barely touch him. if fact, the only being that was capable of the feat, and did beat him, was the Avatar of Tranquility, and equally powerful being.</blockquote>If a tank round only dents him, you need more highly powered weapons. Which there are. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ama]

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote>*shrug* The little gnome said the same thing saying it's easier to whip up an ice spell, but he prefered to make his Freezerator contraption.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Rijacki]

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote>*shrug* The little gnome said the same thing saying it's easier to whip up an ice spell, but he prefered to make his Freezerator contraption.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>And the majority of the other races think gnomes are more than a bit crack-pot.  Thus, why would anyone other than a gnome trust any sort of contraption built by a gnome?Tinkering is as close as you get to technological advancements.. and now that everyone can learn it, the world might get a bit of technology.

[ke'la]

What you got to look at though is that inorder to have say High Powered rifles you first must have a Musket and inorder to have a Musket you must have a Flint Lock and inorder to have a Flintlock you must have a Matchlock. So why would you take the time to fire 3 extreemly inacurate(over 50 yards you almost always miss) shots a Min, with a weopon that is almost as likly to blow you up as it is to kill the enemy(all early gunpowder weopons), when every min or so you could drop Ice Nova on thier rears, and 99 time out of 100 have it land for full effect.

[Josgar]

If I remember correctly... wasnt there some kind of gimped gun in EQ1?

[Kamimura]

I'm still not convinced. No, not everyone can use magic - but then, not everyone can construct bombs or has access to tanks, either. I still don't see the need for many of these things regardless... Summon fire from the sky or bombs, airplane or find a wizard to teleport you.. Enemy fire? Forget it, just find a shaman to ward you.. Anyway, for the heck of it, let's pretend for a moment that there was a need. You still have not answered my question, <i>when</i> did they have time to accomplish this? If earth went through what Norrath has, I doubt we'd be inventing much either. There would be a bigger struggle to survive, and to not lose the technology we have now. It would be quite the set back, don't you think?

[Almeric_CoS]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you take a look at EverQuest and EverQuest II, in 500 years no technology really changes or advances at all. From what you've seen in-game, you can assume that Norrath would be in it's High Middle Ages. You see clockworks and mechanical steam-powered devices, yet no cannons or early muskets?</p><p> Norrath really lacks some serious brains! What do you think?</p></blockquote>Whee, I was just pondering exactly <a href="http://loquaciousgamer.blogspot.com/2007/10/future-fantasy.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this sort of thing</a> only a few weeks ago!

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Josgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I remember correctly... wasnt there some kind of gimped gun in EQ1?</blockquote>The BFG 9000. Bootbreeze's Fridged Gnasher. It was a bow from Western Wastes. The weapon was added in when one of the lead programmers of Quake joined the developers at Everquest.

[Dasein]

Human technology in the Real World has only begun drastically changing in the past 100-150 years or so with the advent of steam power, electricity, internal combustion engines and other key technologies.From about 500 BC to 0AD, how much did technology change? From 0AD to 500AD, or 500AD to 1000AD, how much did things change? Sure, there were some advances in metal working or agriculture, but really, the basic technology level remained unchanged, and in some cases, even declined. There was never any sort of major breakthrough that saw the transition from swords and longbows to tanks and airplanes within those periods. So, why do we assume Norrath would see a radical increase in technology in a 500 year span? If anything, I'd see the tech levels decline - with the Shattering and chaos that followed, I'd expect the technology levels to decline as knowledge is lost, communication breaks down and travel is more difficult.

[BarrelRoll]

<p>BFG - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BFG_9000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BFG_9000</a></p><p> To answer Ke'la, when muskets started wipe-spread use people still wore armo(u)r and used swords n' bows. Even when rifles were invented, and people used calvary armed with rifles - They even used swords as a secondary weapon.</p><p> Since Kamimura keeps bothering me about the question, I spoke with some of my friends about this topic. They agree that if your planet was ripped apart and you were trying to fight for survival, it would slow down the progress of technology advancement.</p>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Human technology in the Real World has only begun drastically changing in the past 100-150 years or so with the advent of steam power, electricity, internal combustion engines and other key technologies.From about 500 BC to 0AD, how much did technology change? From 0AD to 500AD, or 500AD to 1000AD, how much did things change? Sure, there were some advances in metal working or agriculture, but really, the basic technology level remained unchanged, and in some cases, even declined. There was never any sort of major breakthrough that saw the transition from swords and longbows to tanks and airplanes within those periods. So, why do we assume Norrath would see a radical increase in technology in a 500 year span? If anything, I'd see the tech levels decline - with the Shattering and chaos that followed, I'd expect the technology levels to decline as knowledge is lost, communication breaks down and travel is more difficult. </blockquote>Without a decline, Norrath should be in the early Renaissance era. With the decline, you can't really say.

[Josgar]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Human technology in the Real World has only begun drastically changing in the past 100-150 years or so with the advent of steam power, electricity, internal combustion engines and other key technologies.From about 500 BC to 0AD, how much did technology change? From 0AD to 500AD, or 500AD to 1000AD, how much did things change? Sure, there were some advances in metal working or agriculture, but really, the basic technology level remained unchanged, and in some cases, even declined. There was never any sort of major breakthrough that saw the transition from swords and longbows to tanks and airplanes within those periods. So, why do we assume Norrath would see a radical increase in technology in a 500 year span? If anything, I'd see the tech levels decline - with the Shattering and chaos that followed, I'd expect the technology levels to decline as knowledge is lost, communication breaks down and travel is more difficult. </blockquote>Without a decline, Norrath should be in the early Renaissance era. With the decline, you can't really say.</blockquote>High Elves are in the Renaissance era... you other crazy races are just too bla to understand =D

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Josgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Human technology in the Real World has only begun drastically changing in the past 100-150 years or so with the advent of steam power, electricity, internal combustion engines and other key technologies.From about 500 BC to 0AD, how much did technology change? From 0AD to 500AD, or 500AD to 1000AD, how much did things change? Sure, there were some advances in metal working or agriculture, but really, the basic technology level remained unchanged, and in some cases, even declined. There was never any sort of major breakthrough that saw the transition from swords and longbows to tanks and airplanes within those periods. So, why do we assume Norrath would see a radical increase in technology in a 500 year span? If anything, I'd see the tech levels decline - with the Shattering and chaos that followed, I'd expect the technology levels to decline as knowledge is lost, communication breaks down and travel is more difficult. </blockquote>Without a decline, Norrath should be in the early Renaissance era. With the decline, you can't really say.</blockquote>High Elves are in the Renaissance era... you other crazy races are just too bla to understand =D</blockquote>Haha. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Josgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Human technology in the Real World has only begun drastically changing in the past 100-150 years or so with the advent of steam power, electricity, internal combustion engines and other key technologies.From about 500 BC to 0AD, how much did technology change? From 0AD to 500AD, or 500AD to 1000AD, how much did things change? Sure, there were some advances in metal working or agriculture, but really, the basic technology level remained unchanged, and in some cases, even declined. There was never any sort of major breakthrough that saw the transition from swords and longbows to tanks and airplanes within those periods. So, why do we assume Norrath would see a radical increase in technology in a 500 year span? If anything, I'd see the tech levels decline - with the Shattering and chaos that followed, I'd expect the technology levels to decline as knowledge is lost, communication breaks down and travel is more difficult. </blockquote>Without a decline, Norrath should be in the early Renaissance era. With the decline, you can't really say.</blockquote>High Elves are in the Renaissance era... you other crazy races are just too bla to understand =D</blockquote>Denial is not just another river in Egypt, Josgar.

[Sonnyjim_Grumblestump]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you take a look at EverQuest and EverQuest II, in 500 years no technology really changes or advances at all. From what you've seen in-game, you can assume that Norrath would be in it's High Middle Ages. You see clockworks and mechanical steam-powered devices, yet no cannons or early muskets?</p><p> Norrath really lacks some serious brains! What do you think?</p></blockquote>Just a late reply to the OP -- I do like Jindrak's answer about magic stifling the necessity of invention, but the other side of the coin has also been stated: Empires and civilization DO decline. The medieval era is sometimes called the dark ages for a reason. Following the fall of Roman empire, history saw nearly 1000 years of net stagnation. And they didn't exactly have to deal with the earth cracking asunder or the moon exploding, either.

[Almeric_CoS]

Ok, but scholars aren't a rare occurrence or relegated to secret societies in Norrath.  They're EVERYWHERE.  Arguing that Norrath is in a Dark Age would be pretty tough, IMO, even with the cataclysm

[Kamimura]

There are lots of scholars around, sure, but again where in the last 500 years would they have had much time for inventing? First the age of War, then the age of Cataclysms.. <b></b>I would figure they would be more worried about not losing the knowledge they have rather than trying to move much forward. Now we're in the age of Destiny, but even now, people are still more concerned with reclaiming lost history, finding lost places, etc. Norrath as a whole is still set back, trying to move forward again.Plus, again, with magic slowing down the need for technology, with these things together it make sense that not much new has come up in the past 500 years.

[Ama]

<p>Well I believe the technology exists for weaponry for some reason it hasn't been combined yet.  In the Fens of Narsath in the Drogan camp a little goblin talks about Sahtl Pi'ter.  Now it isn't hard to see that's talking about "Salt Peter" *sp* and any HS chemistry student can tell you that's 1 of the 3 components for gunpowder.  </p><p>Muskets/rifles maybe invented however I think Norrath prefers making stuff go boom by wiggling their fingers. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Almeric@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, but scholars aren't a rare occurrence or relegated to secret societies in Norrath.  They're EVERYWHERE.  Arguing that Norrath is in a Dark Age would be pretty tough, IMO, even with the cataclysm</blockquote><p>Yes there are "Scholars" in Norrath but what are they studing? Saying there are Scholars(as we see them) in Norrath is like saying the Vadican was full of... Scholars in the Middel Ages cause everyone was studing. </p><p>The Scholars in Norrath Study Magics of every sort(Scribes), Trinket Making and Offencive Fighting Styles(Jewlers), and Poison/Posion making along with Defencive Fighting styles. None of wich lend themselfs to the types of technology that we have today. Infact it could be argued that in the 500 years sence EQ1 we have REGRESSED in our Knowage not Progressed, for exsample until very resontly Sorcourers and Druids could not port, and take alook at the Qyenos and Freeport New construction prodjects such as the Nek Forest and TS docks and compair them to the older docks such as BBM. Infact its more like we are in an era similar to the Weining of the 3rd age of Middle Earth and the begining of the 4th, as we are seeing rements of a world that for the most part reached it's peak 500 years ago.</p>

[Gnobrin]

<p>Sure, the world's just now healing from their moon ramming into it as well as evil creatures knocking on their main city's doors (Gnolls for Qeynos and Orcs for Freeport), thereby making the gain of matierials to test with almost impossible.  The oceans have even been in too much disarray until recently, that being the reason only now have we "re-found" Kunark, a continent that was largely travelled to with ease through boat and 'ports.  Even now Odus is still lost and possibly gone forever, a home continent for one of the most intelligent beings on Norrath.  If they can't even restart a connection to home, then of course there's issue still with the world.  When EverQuest II started, ports were rare and even the wizard spires had to be re-built.    The folks of the world are just now getting their pantheon back in order, a world that GREATLY depended on it's gods, after their gods had fully and entirely left them.  The world's society is still in a HUGE amount of flux, a society that bases its power on raw magic.  </p><p>Keep in mind too, fantasy magic societies tend to have a harder time using 'tech then non-magic.  There's a sharp balance between the magics of magic and the magics of tech.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[shadowscale]

would be interesting that when Odus is finally discovered it ends up like an Atlantis with some extra technology for the time period.

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>shadowscale wrote:</cite><blockquote>would be interesting that when Odus is finally discovered it ends up like an Atlantis with some extra technology for the time period.</blockquote>Game-wise they wouldn't change anything, or it wouldn't be EverQuest II.

[Zabjade]

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I don't know I can see Gnomes and even Humans creating cannons and muskets <i>(I <b>DO</b> view <u>Brock's Thermal Shocker</u> as a <b>Magi-Muskett</b> and want more of them in game) </i>I would see this more in mass battle field tactics mostly to replace other seige devices, a cannon would be easy to replace with crafters a mage takes years of training.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I would also see many Magi-tech devices around as well; warding spheres for ships, dragon's head flame thower emplacements, plumbing exists in the forms of fountains I want to see furniture in the form of Gnomish toilets! Erudian Hygeine spheres. Levitation imbued cargo skiffs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">You mentioned Teleportation, that only takes you to certain loactions once you get there you have to beat feet to your destination. I could see Gnomes tooling around in a giant steam-powered cog.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">After all not all people have magical abilities outside of combat arts and gate(Call of- ) spells. </span></p><p><b><i>Kamimura wrote:</i></b></p><p><quote>You need to take into account what has been going on in the past 500 years, though. Giant wars, mass destruction, races being pushed from their homelands, travel cut way down. People have been busy enough just trying to survive. </quote></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Wars are where inventions get made and have their proving grounds, many technological advancements happened during wartime. </span></p><p>After all Necessity is the Mother of invention!</p>

[Zabjade]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sure, the world's just now healing from their moon ramming into it as well as evil creatures knocking on their main city's doors (Gnolls for Qeynos and Orcs for Freeport)</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><snip>.</span></p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I've always wondered how much longer the Gnolls will be a threat, I mean sure they have been enemies of Qeynos for a long time <i>(When not secretly trading Blackburrow Stout)</i> but with Brell back and Dwarves of Qeynos recognising the connection they have to the Gnolls  I wonder how long until there is a peace process...Especially if the Orcs get a beachhead on Antonica again. <i>(Also I'm hoping for playable Icepaw Gnolls when Velious comes out)</i></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">There is also a diffrence in one other aspect Orcs are forming empires such as Zekk and Deathfist Citidal, the Canyons in Sinking Sands, Crushbone, and the Blackhook Pirates they also have a dialogue with each others factions. <i>(Not bad for a race that appears to have no females of their own)</i></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Gnolls on the other had are tribal and mostly look after themselves other then to repell intruders or trade with them, the only reason they attack Qeynos is because of an Ancient feud that started with the loss of a Shaman's paw. <i>(Males and females in the NPC's look alike although there might be changes if there was a PC Gnoll race)</i></span></p>

[jasonis]

Magic may stagnate the development of technology, but what about a sort of magic based technology? Real world technology gets developed by scientists and engineers, but you don't need a phd to use a fridge.  Magic may be pretty handy in a military sense, but most of the population still seem to be living in hovels.  Even with the shattering etc, you'd think some enterprising wannabe millionaire wizard would have tried to discover a way of storing an Ice Comet it a cunning box to store food.  Or a fury deciding that casting Waterspout on a bowl full of dirty laundry could save him a few hours.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>jasonisme wrote:</cite><blockquote>Magic may stagnate the development of technology, but what about a sort of magic based technology? Real world technology gets developed by scientists and engineers, but you don't need a phd to use a fridge.  Magic may be pretty handy in a military sense, but most of the population still seem to be living in hovels.  Even with the shattering etc, you'd think some enterprising wannabe millionaire wizard would have tried to discover a way of storing an Ice Comet it a cunning box to store food.  Or a fury deciding that casting Waterspout on a bowl full of dirty laundry could save him a few hours.</blockquote>This is what the Gnomes have done all thier existance. They mix magic with technology, and just look where it's anded them. They're blamed for 99% of every bad thing that happens on Norrath.

[Kamimura]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span style="color: #00cc00;">Wars are where inventions get made and have their proving grounds, many technological advancements happened during wartime. </span></blockquote>It has been much more than wars, though.

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Irrelavant, any hard time will inspire the necessity for upgrading normal and magi-tech. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Also other then Karkanon the cities most likely to embarce technology <i>(outside of New Tannon)</i> are human settlements all of which still exist. Qeynos, Freeport,  High Pass <i>(Reputed to be the home base of the Far Seas Shipping Company)</i>, and Maj'Dul <i>(Note the magical barrier to keep pedestrains from falling off the carpet launch)</i> You can bet Gorowyn is also inovating quite nicely as well. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Humans arn't better at tinkering etc. they just mass produce it and remember to add safety features that Gnomes often forget.</span></p>

[Cusashorn]

Karkanon? you mean Klak'Anon?

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>Bah!</p><p>If you want Dwarves in Space, wait for Warhammer 40k to come along!</p><p>From a design point of view, I think mixing genres is a bad decision, but that's just my 2cp.</p>

[Zabjade]

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Bah!</p><p>If you want Dwarves in Space, wait for Warhammer 40k to come along!</p><p>From a design point of view, I think mixing genres is a bad decision, but that's just my 2cp.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I seem to remember a Dwarven Security Officer on the Dreadnever expidation. Also in EQ1 there was lore mention of a Gnomish ship that went to Luclin. (The Shadow's of Luclin Book)</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Cusa>>>Yeah it is already established that I confuse words at times and misspell,  SoE needs a Norrath Sensitive spell checker too. ;p</span></p>

[Rainmare]

that's because gnomes are to tinkering what an alcoholic is to liquor. they are obsessive compulsives about it. it's a genetic, inbred trait in their species.and Lucan D'Lere would never, ever, allow magical devices that could possibly interfere with his reign, or claims that he is responsible for the rising of the sun and the savior of freeport from the falling shards of Luclin. so I imagine any wizard that tried to do things like create a freezer by incasing a constantly renewing Ice comet spell would get put in prison, tortured for his trouble, and executed. Not to mention the persecution the Foci would use at someone daring to try and upstage her. (or whomever is going to replace the Foci due to her being in line for exectution at the moment)Qeynos may have a more open mind about that kind of thing, but the Celestial Watch and the Tunarian Alliance would probably squash it. the Watch would warn that trying to make ourselves so powerful and self-reliant, that our arrogance at distorting or trying to improve on the Gods designs for the world, is just asking for another Rending/Shattering. the Alliance would probably crack down on the enviromental effects that such devices might have if they malfunctioned or the waste they may give off.Neriak would consider such things a waste of energy and time. why waste time figuring out how to use ice comet to store meat when you should be figuring out how to make Ice comet more dangerous to Neriak's enemies. not to mention time you waste studying on how to do that is time that others will take advantage of to plot against you and take everything you have from you including your life at the first opportunity.Maj'dul...well..the factions would spend so much time squabbling over the use/credit of such things that they'd never get beyond the most basic testing I imagine. and then after the explosions and mishaps and screwups that are bound to happen, they'd drop the idea out of fear that being associated with it would weaken thier political position.Kelethin might go for it...but the fae are natural pranksters, so expect probably several gnomish deaths from pranks that took terrible turns because a gnome forgot about some safety feature and when the fae decided to switch his fizzletwitch with his thropalgidget as a prank caused a platform to explode in a frozen sphere.Gorowyn is far too obsessed with thier past to be working on devices of such a futuristic nature. not to mention their enemies at the gate are not only numerous, but incredibly powerful. you do not play with tinkertoys when you have Dragons to contend with. or a powerful Lich and his revived bloodline and an empire that would love to commit genocide on you that already owns 75% of the continent your on.These are of course, my opinions on the matter.

[Nocturnal Aby]

<p>Moreover, what do all the scholars seem to be researching?  Magic!  By and large, most of the scholars you come across in EQ will be mages.  The Academy of Arcane <i>Science</i>.  In our world, we don't have magic (at least not to the degree and/or manner they do in Norrath), so we create machines to make our lives easier.  In Norrath, they use magic to the same end.  As has been said, we create machines that enable us to move 75 mph, in Norrath, they have magic that enables them to run 45% faster.  Remember, the first automobiles had a top speed of 12-15 mph, using the average run speed of 3 mph, the first cars were only 15% faster. (I'm no mathmatician, so I could be incorrect there).  Even the basic spirit of wolf spells are 20%, and the scout abilities are a minimum of 16%.  Moreover, people can buy/create magically imbued totems that will enable them to run 24% faster, and then there is the ability to teleport, which I, for one, sincerely envy.  What I wouldn't give if we had the technology of instant teleportation!  We see evidence of the use of teleportation with the Sea Gate, the portals used around Neriak for ease of travel, and the mage tower in South Qeynos.  Hopefully we'll one day see them in use in Erudin, Paineel, and the Temple of Quellithule.</p><p>As was mentioned, the first hand cannons (combustion propelled firearms) were widely inaccurate.  When first used, hand cannoneers were only used against large forces, since a bow and arrow was much more deadly, as you could actually hit what you were aiming at.  Now imagine a world where bows, too can be magically crafted and enhanced.  Mana infused draw-strings, bows blessed and enchanted by the most powerful mages, and even the gods, and practioners of arcane and spiritual arts that can call down fire, lightning, ice, plagues...how can a device that is as likely to blow up in your face as it is to throw an iron ball 100 feet with little accuracy any comparison to that?</p><p>Let's not rule at the advances we do see, either.  We know for a fact that the orcs used trebuchets against the city of Freeport during the seige (and continue to do so to this day).  We've got gnomes creating all sorts of mechanical wonders, including flamethrowers, and even clockwork organisms...to the point to which they've become sentient.  It should also be noted that these are not merely clockworks, but magically infused clockworks.  If there is to be any mechanical advancement, it will be made by gnomes, as they are the only peoples interested in such things.  They created a rocket, for crying out loud!</p><p>In summary, if a culture, or even a world, has progressed to a point where one means (magic) is more adaptable than another means (machines), they will have no reason to go backwards by trying to advance machines to the point magic is already able, especially when the magic is available to the masses through potions, enchanted objects, and blessed relics.</p>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Nocturnal Abyss wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Moreover, what do all the scholars seem to be researching?  Magic!  By and large, most of the scholars you come across in EQ will be mages.  The Academy of Arcane <i>Science</i>.  In our world, we don't have magic (at least not to the degree and/or manner they do in Norrath), so we create machines to make our lives easier.  In Norrath, they use magic to the same end.  As has been said, we create machines that enable us to move 75 mph, in Norrath, they have magic that enables them to run 45% faster.  Remember, the first automobiles had a top speed of 12-15 mph, using the average run speed of 3 mph, the first cars were only 15% faster. (I'm no mathmatician, so I could be incorrect there).  Even the basic spirit of wolf spells are 20%, and the scout abilities are a minimum of 16%.  Moreover, people can buy/create magically imbued totems that will enable them to run 24% faster, and then there is the ability to teleport, which I, for one, sincerely envy.  What I wouldn't give if we had the technology of instant teleportation!  We see evidence of the use of teleportation with the Sea Gate, the portals used around Neriak for ease of travel, and the mage tower in South Qeynos.  Hopefully we'll one day see them in use in Erudin, Paineel, and the Temple of Quellithule.</p><p>As was mentioned, the first hand cannons (combustion propelled firearms) were widely inaccurate.  When first used, hand cannoneers were only used against large forces, since a bow and arrow was much more deadly, as you could actually hit what you were aiming at.  Now imagine a world where bows, too can be magically crafted and enhanced.  Mana infused draw-strings, bows blessed and enchanted by the most powerful mages, and even the gods, and practioners of arcane and spiritual arts that can call down fire, lightning, ice, plagues...how can a device that is as likely to blow up in your face as it is to throw an iron ball 100 feet with little accuracy any comparison to that?</p><p>Let's not rule at the advances we do see, either.  We know for a fact that the orcs used trebuchets against the city of Freeport during the seige (and continue to do so to this day).  We've got gnomes creating all sorts of mechanical wonders, including flamethrowers, and even clockwork organisms...to the point to which they've become sentient.  It should also be noted that these are not merely clockworks, but magically infused clockworks.  If there is to be any mechanical advancement, it will be made by gnomes, as they are the only peoples interested in such things.  They created a rocket, for crying out loud!</p><p>In summary, if a culture, or even a world, has progressed to a point where one means (magic) is more adaptable than another means (machines), they will have no reason to go backwards by trying to advance machines to the point magic is already able, especially when the magic is available to the masses through potions, enchanted objects, and blessed relics.</p></blockquote><p>It's too bad that if you would have spent the time to advance and improve your crappy muskets and cannons, you would get what you see now days. Extremely accurate weapons that kill you in three hits in about...two seconds. Also, you live MUCH longer than people did in the Middle Ages. Why? Better technology = improved living.</p><p>When it comes to firepower of weapons and magical spells you basically have -</p><p> Artillery: Blow your target up from MILES away</p><p> Bombers & Fighters: Can't hit something that's flying at 700 mph+ and is 10,000 feet in the air? Only to have 500 pound bombs fall onto you.</p><p> Firearms: Muskets may have been inaccurate, but once rifling was invented - No one used armor or bows anymore. Machine guns could mow people down. Please remember that not everyone used magic....</p><p> Armored Calavry (Tanks): What's an arrow going to do a tank? A fireball? Tanks get shot by very VERY hot high explosive rounds and such all the time, and live to crush anything another day. The only way you could really kill the crew of the tank is via lifetap. If you didn't know, the crew of a tank is in a very compact and sealed protected compartment. It's rare for the crew to get killed, even if the tank is disabled.</p><p> Gunships (Helicopters): Likely the best air weapon to use - Hellfires, miniguns, and TOWs</p><p>Castle Walls = Useless against explosives</p><p>Armor = Useless against explosives or bullets</p><p>Nuclear weapons: Can't stop these. They would crush any army/city. Nothing can protect itself against a nuclear bomb. You may bring up magical shields, but I don't think you understand how powerful nuclear weapons are. Shields, even magical, don't last forever.</p><p>Even if Norrath knows that's it's bows aren't obsolete, and magic is better than these inaccurate weapons/cannons, they sure do see the potential in these weapons. If they take the time to develop and advance this technology, it would obsolete all of their weapons and armor - Even though magic would still be used, modern weapons would crush them.</p>

[steelbadger]

There's a few reasons that spring to mind: 1) Obviously, as others said, bits of moon crashing into the planet and an apocalyptic war does a pretty good job of stalling technological advancement. 2) The kind of weird people who sit in their bedroom gnawing on carrots for 3 months before coming up with a world altering invention have a different niche in Norrath. Magic. 3) Maybe someone did invent a musket... but the chances are that it used magic to shoot the projectiles, because that is the simplest and most obvious way to do it... and if you use magic why not just use a magic projectile too? In the end every modern day weapon relies on the discovery of gunpowder or flight. In Norrath gunpowder is likely nothing more than stuff that goes interestingly *phut*, because it is far easier, cheaper and less dangerous to use magic to produce explosions. Flight... well flight does happen, I rather doubt humans would have invented planes if we where able to ride large winged animals, teleport instantly and levitate. The thing about technological advancement is that every step in the chain has to be useful. A musket in the real world was useful, in Norrath? Not so. And at that point the entire chain breaks down. Why work on something for months if it is obsolete? This is the reason humans haven't invented machines that use flapping wings, because helicopters and planes are far simpler, safer and easier to deal with, its just not worth the time for something that will be of no use. Sure, maybe if they progressed from Musket to rifle they would have a use, but they need to achieve musket first, and if musket is useless they wont.

[BarrelRoll]

<p>Airplanes are much more deadly than a griffion or some guy who can float.</p><p>As I've said in my one of my previous post, when the musket was invented armies still used the bow and wore armor, as it wasen't completely made obsolete. If the Norrathians did have a musket, I'm sure they would continue to study it even if there is still magic and bows which may be better to use at times. As if they did continue to study it, it would lead to much more advanced weaponry which would of course obsolete bows and most forms of magic.</p><p>Another thing that comes to mind is ships. Yes, there is teleporting to be done but many armies on Norrath used fleets to move their army in to invade a continent. Battleships and superships are MUCH more power than a tiny little wooden ship. In fact, I can't even imagine a wooden ship even DAMAGING a battleship - Even if they rammed it, it wouldn't do anything to it's metal hull.</p>

[Rainmare]

I have one spell for you. Fusion.nuclear weapons, and nuclear reactors, use this to work. they use fusion to create the energy that powers the explosion. it's the same source of power that the sun uses.and a wizard can completely control, direct, and harness it. the fusion spell is basically a nuclear explosion, controled to a specific area, without the radiation side effect.and the range on a musket? not impressive. their effective range was something like what? 30 meters? maybe? now a cannon had good range. but why would I want to build a cannon, or a flintlock, or a musket, when I have have my pal standing next to me drop a comet on someone, or encase them in his own personal fusion generator if he felt like it?your right, not everyone uses magic. but for the most part, the people with the intelligence to design that kind of technology..they do.

[steelbadger]

You don't understand...Invention is all about finding a way to make something easier or better, if it does neither of those things it is pointless and wont be invented.We invented planes so that we could move around easier.We invented guns so we could field large numbers of missile troops cheaplyWe invented computers so that we didn't have to do all the bothersome thinking ourselves.Now, its no use comparing MODERN weapons to medieval weapons and say that they should invent them, we achieved modern weapons through advancement through lots of increasingly powerful and useful inventions.  Handgun, Muskets, Rifle.  The handgun was useful, because a bow took years to master.  Hence it was advanced upon.In Norrath we can just hand a bloke a technomagical item with an imbued spell effect in it to produce the same effect as a handgun, cheaper (far easier to produce a stick and imbue it than machine lots of complicated parts) and faster.  And requires even less training than a handgun.  (Point, say magic word).  So if someone came up with an idea to use some explosive substances, stuff em down a tube with a lump of lead and blow the stuff up (handguns killed their user with distressing regularity) it would be shelved, theres no point when we can use perfectly safe and understandable magic.  And then the process of advancement stops there.  Because the first step was no use.A modern day fighter might be able to fry a griffon from 10 miles out, but the wright brothers plane couldn't.  Why try to make a better version when griffons and levitation are already 100 times better?

[BarrelRoll]

<p>Anything that is released commerically the military has had for 20 years. Computers were orginally designed to solve complex math problems. We invented guns to kill the enemy army quicker. Guns = Better than arrows. There wasen't a specific reason to why we invented planes. No one thought you could build a flying machine. It may take years to master archery, but a handgun is still a superior weapon if you compared the firepower.</p><p> What you seem to be avoiding is the fact that not everyone knows or can use magical spells. Not everyone a mage. To respond to Rainy, if a wizard spell was as strong as a nuke, it would incinerate ANYTHING. Also, nuclear explosions aren't fusion. It's a chain-reaction process called nuclear fission. It's completely different from fusion.</p><p> Seeing that everyone doesn't use magic, those who don't will want to use weapons that are better than their swords and arrows. Spend enough time developing these weapons, they'll become modern weapons. These modern weapons win against magic.</p>

[Almeric_CoS]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Wars are where inventions get made and have their proving grounds, many technological advancements happened during wartime. </span></p><p>After all Necessity is the Mother of invention!</p></blockquote><p>Very good point.  That's why it blows my mind that something as relatively simple as a cannon doesn't exist.  We have black powder, we have blacksmiths, and we have hoardes of enemies outside our city that our tower full of ultra-powerful mages can't seem to deal with.</p><p>Why the non-magicky folks haven't come up with something new, I have no idea.  Hell, a cannon would even encourage use of something else that Norrath HAS but woefully underuses.....</p><p> <img src="http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/exhibition/images/med/newsteadwhl.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="290" border="0" /></p>

[Rainmare]

okay. lets give a norrathian a handgun, and put him up against a wizard. wizard says one word, handgun melts into norrathian's flesh. give norrathians a modern plane. wizard casts icecomet on it. the impact causes the bombs to explode midair, possibly taking out other planes in formation.a fusion spell forming instantly on top of a group of musket armed soldiers. the heat vaporizes thier weapons and thier bodies in a matter of seconds. while I may have been wrong on the nuclear weapon thing.musket loading qeynos guard vs fireball slinging wizard. qeynos gets his shot off, wizard uses shield to deflect the bullet, and then vaporizes guard while he's reloading. but your right, not everyone is a wizard.but spell slinging items are available to non wizards.why would you invent a flintlock, when you have a wand that shoots fireballs. or icicles, or spew poisonous gas, or acidic fluid. that is norrath's handgun.in order to make the modern plane, you'd have to invent the wright brothers version. both of which would be decimated by a griffon or a sokokar.

[Eriol]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote>To respond to Rainy, if a wizard spell was as strong as a nuke, it would incinerate ANYTHING.</blockquote>And a single arrow can kill you. Or a single blow from a sword. Don't mistake game mechanics as a substitute for what would happen in an actual world obeying the "coarse" rules we're talking about here, not what would actually happen if we did any of the things the spell effects are describing we are doing.<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, nuclear explosions aren't fusion. It's a chain-reaction process called nuclear fission. It's completely different from fusion.</blockquote>You're half-right here.  The two bombs that were dropped on Japan were Fission bombs, one uranium, one plutonium, but Hydrogen bombs are Fusion devices that use fission bombs as triggers, and they're <i>much</i> more powerful (Megatons for hydrogen bombs instead of kilotons like fission bombs usually are).  Looking it up in wiki, "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Tsar Bomba</a>" was the largest bomb ever created and detonated by humans, a fusion device with a yield of around 50 Megatons (reduced from the original design of 100 Megatons).  "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Little Boy</a>" which exploded over Hiroshima was a uranium fission bomb with a yield of between 13 and 16 kilotons, "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Fat Man</a>" which was used over Nagasaki was a plutonium fission bomb with a yield of about 21 kilotons.  The "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_design" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Nuclear weapon design</a>" article in wiki also explains the difference between these two types of weapons clearly.

[Almeric_CoS]

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>why would you invent a flintlock, when you have a wand that shoots fireballs. or icicles, or spew poisonous gas, or acidic fluid. that is norrath's handgun.</blockquote><p>Keeping in mind that I am NO fan of firearms, if the wand takes 6 seconds to wave around properly and I have a wild boar charging at me, I'll take the gun.</p><p>And yeah maybe a wizard can melt the gun, but then I won't use it against a wizard.  I will, however, use it against an orc berserker.</p>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>okay. lets give a norrathian a handgun, and put him up against a wizard. wizard says one word, handgun melts into norrathian's flesh. give norrathians a modern plane. wizard casts icecomet on it. the impact causes the bombs to explode midair, possibly taking out other planes in formation.a fusion spell forming instantly on top of a group of musket armed soldiers. the heat vaporizes thier weapons and thier bodies in a matter of seconds. while I may have been wrong on the nuclear weapon thing.musket loading qeynos guard vs fireball slinging wizard. qeynos gets his shot off, wizard uses shield to deflect the bullet, and then vaporizes guard while he's reloading. but your right, not everyone is a wizard.but spell slinging items are available to non wizards.why would you invent a flintlock, when you have a wand that shoots fireballs. or icicles, or spew poisonous gas, or acidic fluid. that is norrath's handgun.in order to make the modern plane, you'd have to invent the wright brothers version. both of which would be decimated by a griffon or a sokokar.</blockquote><p>Basically you're ignoring the wizards die in one hit, but they can destroy anything, including archers, swordsmen, tanks, planes, or guys with guns. It isn't as easy as you try to make it sound. Bomb also don't randomly explode in mid-air. I don't see how you can target something 10,000+ feet in the air while it's moving at 700 miles per hour. In case you didn't know, there are these two gnomes in Zek that is an easter egg to the Wright Brothers. The first airplanes were used for scouting. They had no guns at all. Scouts would often fly by each other and even wave. Sometimes they would use small arms or throw bricks in an attempt to kill the other pilot.</p><p>Also Eriol, yes, one arrow will likely kill you. One slash with a sword will likely kill you or put you out of action for the rest of the battle. Problem is, how are you going to hit your target when he has already hit you?</p><p>Technology beats magical spells to a limit. Magic isn't " Wow, you can't even touch me I'm super powerful and I can stop huge armies of highly advanced troops with stuff that I don't even know have weaknesses to. "</p><p> Before Rainy decides to repeat himself to me, please read these Wikipedia articles -</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_%28projectile%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_...28projectile%29</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft</a></p><p>Perhaps if you knew more about modern day technology and how they work, maybe you wouldn't think magic is so invincible.</p>

[Kamimura]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Irrelavant, any hard time will inspire the necessity for upgrading normal and magi-tech. </span></p></blockquote>No, it is quite relevant. Imagine earth.. The biggest, quickest forms of transportation are lost, a large population is gone - stuck where no one can reach them, fighting a war against creates from the planes of Gods. Massive wars break out against extremely powerful enemies. Many people are dying, losing their homes very quickly, having to travel to a few safe places - fighting all the while. It ends, and people are trying to rebuild their cities.. recover what has been lost. However, that isn't the end. Next, a great earthquake strikes. Entire villages are swallowed up into the earth. Bridges gone, cities damages, roads ruined - many lives gone.That isn't the end though. Another quake, another, another.. each more violent than the last. The seas become deadly, no boats can go out onto them. Winds of fire, intense storms, more quakes..As you can imagine, this is even harder to recover from.. but they work on it..Of course we know still more comes. The moon explodes. Too many die to even take a fair count. The lands, again, ruined. The big cities don't remain untouched, either. They do get hit. They must spend their time rebuilding..As you can imagine, if the earth went through what Norrath has..? We would not be inventing much. We would probably lose a fair amount of technology, actually. Hard times may inspire, but what to do with it when you are struggling to even survive?Remember, everything that has happened in the past 500 years was meant to drive the mortals apart. To weaken them. It was a success.If nothing like this had occurred? I too might wonder why at least a few things have not come about. I'm not expecting bombs or guns, really. Look at us all as an example. Who would use a gun? Two people. How many of us would stick to older, better things (as most would be better than early guns). Want to shoot my paladin? Sure, she'll ward and it won't matter. You'd need a stronger gun, and they probably would not come about if few people cared enough to advance them. May come in handy for hunters.. but then, they may not want it. Who really knows. A cannon? Perhaps. I could perhaps see the invention of planes as well.. if no other reason than it seems like something a Gnome would attempt. Maybe even better lighting and such in houses. Stuff like that. However, with the last 500 years, it is reasonable to see why nothing much has come about. I think for the most part though, many would choose to focus on magic, combat arts, and the like. No advances in technology because it is just not where people have been focused. Personally, I'd take a port and SoWs over a car and rush hour traffic any day.

[ke'la]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>okay. lets give a norrathian a handgun, and put him up against a wizard. wizard says one word, handgun melts into norrathian's flesh. give norrathians a modern plane. wizard casts icecomet on it. the impact causes the bombs to explode midair, possibly taking out other planes in formation.a fusion spell forming instantly on top of a group of musket armed soldiers. the heat vaporizes thier weapons and thier bodies in a matter of seconds. while I may have been wrong on the nuclear weapon thing.musket loading qeynos guard vs fireball slinging wizard. qeynos gets his shot off, wizard uses shield to deflect the bullet, and then vaporizes guard while he's reloading. but your right, not everyone is a wizard.but spell slinging items are available to non wizards.why would you invent a flintlock, when you have a wand that shoots fireballs. or icicles, or spew poisonous gas, or acidic fluid. that is norrath's handgun.in order to make the modern plane, you'd have to invent the wright brothers version. both of which would be decimated by a griffon or a sokokar.</blockquote><p>Basically you're ignoring the wizards die in one hit, but they can destroy anything, including archers, swordsmen, tanks, planes, or guys with guns. It isn't as easy as you try to make it sound. Bomb also don't randomly explode in mid-air. I don't see how you can target something 10,000+ feet in the air while it's moving at 700 miles per hour. <span style="color: #cc0000;">The thing is first generation plains did not fly at 10k feet or at 700 MPH(heck most modern plains while deploying thier weopons don't fly that fast. </span>In case you didn't know, there are these two gnomes in Zek that is an easter egg to the Wright Brothers. <span style="color: #cc0000;">Who are researching how to use a Catapult to get you to DFC faster(you must read the lore sometime)</span> The first airplanes were used for scouting. <span style="color: #cc0000;">THe first airplanes where used as toys as they flew about 10ft off the ground and moved at about 50MPH, sound familar(yeah sounds like a magic carpet) </span>They had no guns at all. Scouts would often fly by each other and even wave. Sometimes they would use small arms or throw bricks in an attempt to kill the other pilot.</p><p>Also Eriol, yes, one arrow will likely kill you. One slash with a sword will likely kill you or put you out of action for the rest of the battle. Problem is, how are you going to hit your target when he has already hit you?<span style="color: #cc0000;">Well consitering his first shot missed as did his second and likly his third, and he has now givin you a full MINUTE to close within sword range, I don't think it would be a problem to hit the guy with the gun. Again what your missing is until about 1860 it a)took about 20sec to reload your weopon, b) chances are 1 in 2 that you would miss what you are aiming at, c) what made Muskets useful is Mass fire tactics, where you lined up say in a group about 10 people min across and 4 rows deep and fired from 2 rows at a time in mass.</span></p><p>Technology beats magical spells to a limit. Magic isn't " Wow, you can't even touch me I'm super powerful and I can stop huge armies of highly advanced troops with stuff that I don't even know have weaknesses to. "You know just because you are advanced does not mean that you will win. <span style="color: #cc0000;">And also I think in the thousand or so years that it would take to progress from the Matchlock to the modern gun, that they guys reasearching magic would come up with a counter to that. You also have to remember that in a world of Magic, Magic ablities also don't stand still they progress as well, for exsample 500 years ago fighters could not use magic as part of thier attacks, now they do(cause the do heat damage in some of thier attacks).</span></p><p> Before Rainy decides to repeat himself to me, please read these Wikipedia articles -</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_%28projectile%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_...28projectile%29</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft</a></p><p>Perhaps if you knew more about modern day technology and how they work, maybe you wouldn't think magic is so invincible.</p></blockquote><p>You have to remember though that if an invention does not prove suppour in its FIRST incarnation then it WILL NOT reseave continued reasearch. First off it took nearly 200 years to go from a Matchlock(wich is what did not replace the Bow, because allittle rain turned it into a club) to a Flintlock. An befor that it took two hands to fire a "hand cannon" as you had to light the pan itself, there was no lock mechinism. Heck China had Gunpower perfected for like a 1k years and how many "Guns" did they have?</p><p>The problem is you are looking at the siduation with Modern Hinesite. Try this would you give up your Jet Fighter for the Wright Flyer? or your Mechien Gun for a Matchlock? or Your Abrams Tank for a Suit of Armor(remember a player in a magically inhanced suit of armor can withstand Litteral Tons of Force placed on it by say A Giant steping on them, would an Abrams servive that? probly but I know the first tanks wouldn't have.)</p><p>And as for Necesity being the mother of invention then explain to me why in the Thousands of years of human exsistance that its only in the last 200 to 300years at MOST that ALL of the devices you posted where made and MOST of them are refinments on a product that would not even get a second look, in a socity that uses magic.</p><p>BTW, I don't get where you say that everyone does not use magic. Fighters use Magically imbued armor and use magic in thier attacks(how do you explain attacks that do Heat damage if they don't use magic) they just devoted themselfs to the protection of others instead of, flashy high damage attacks, Scouts use magic as well(especally bards) again they have Heat and Cold attacks, Heck Rangers are able to a)summon arrows out of the air, and b) are able to on certain attacks use endless quivers. And we all know Priests and Mages use magic. And as far as NPCs go, those that we interact with regularly all seem to have some magic ablity or another.</p><p>Also Muskets where only usful in battle fields where the armies where within about 100 yards of each other (other wise they where outside of range) AND where both sides where lined up waiting to be shot. Because like I said befor at over about 30yards you where more likly to hit the guy standing next to who you where aiming at then the guy you where aiming at, so they where only usful in massed attacks, and the fact that in Norath single and small group combate(yes 24 people is still small group) is prized far and away above massed troup victories, the extreem inacuracy of the Musket would render it usless. Especally when your opponant can rain fire on you.</p>

[Zabjade]

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>that's because gnomes are to tinkering what an alcoholic is to liquor. they are obsessive compulsives about it. it's a genetic, inbred trait in their species.and Lucan D'Lere would never, ever, allow magical devices that could possibly interfere with his reign, or claims that he is responsible for the rising of the sun and the savior of freeport from the falling shards of Luclin. so I imagine any wizard that tried to do things like create a freezer by incasing a constantly renewing Ice comet spell would get put in prison, tortured for his trouble, and executed. Not to mention the persecution the Foci would use at someone daring to try and upstage her. (or whomever is going to replace the Foci due to her being in line for exectution at the moment)</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">No I believe that Lucan is secure enough that he would glom onto the idea of a method of keeping his fleets fed on high seas so that they had to become exposed to sabotage/spying at docks less and could spend more time privateeering for the glory of Freeport.</span>Qeynos may have a more open mind about that kind of thing, but the Celestial Watch and the Tunarian Alliance would probably squash it. the Watch would warn that trying to make ourselves so powerful and self-reliant, that our arrogance at distorting or trying to improve on the Gods designs for the world, is just asking for another Rending/Shattering. the Alliance would probably crack down on the enviromental effects that such devices might have if they malfunctioned or the waste they may give off.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I doubt they would outrigh squash it, besides the Mage Orders would be very interested in Magi-tech, most peopel are ambivalant of the godlings even with the return of several of them. After all it was the godlings that cause it why get involved with them again?</span>Neriak would consider such things a waste of energy and time. why waste time figuring out how to use ice comet to store meat when you should be figuring out how to make Ice comet more dangerous to Neriak's enemies. not to mention time you waste studying on how to do that is time that others will take advantage of to plot against you and take everything you have from you including your life at the first opportunity.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Dark Elves love the high life being able to store foods until it is out of season and to be able to serve them at parties would up their credit and cause more hate to flow with Jealosy. Another reason would be able to stor a rival's body and make a fresh zombie when you need it months later when it is more to your...advantage. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></span>Maj'dul...well..the factions would spend so much time squabbling over the use/credit of such things that they'd never get beyond the most basic testing I imagine. and then after the explosions and mishaps and screwups that are bound to happen, they'd drop the idea out of fear that being associated with it would weaken thier political position.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I doubt that, sure there would be political stuff but only until the next bigh thing, besides preserved food and ways to cool you house in the constant heat would keep it from becoming a bad idea in the end.</span>Kelethin might go for it...but the fae are natural pranksters, so expect probably several gnomish deaths from pranks that took terrible turns because a gnome forgot about some safety feature and when the fae decided to switch his fizzletwitch with his thropalgidget as a prank caused a platform to explode in a frozen sphere.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm not touching this one with a 10 cog lance. Gnomes are notoriously safety negligent and pranksters are pranksters. that could happen anywhere.</span>Gorowyn is far too obsessed with thier past to be working on devices of such a futuristic nature. not to mention their enemies at the gate are not only numerous, but incredibly powerful. you do not play with tinkertoys when you have Dragons to contend with. or a powerful Lich and his revived bloodline and an empire that would love to commit genocide on you that already owns 75% of the continent your on.</p><p> <span style="color: #00cc00;">Storing food for seiges is not playing around, and it could come up as a way serindipitious failure in making it dificult for dragons and Aviaks to fly by icing up their wings. </span>These are of course, my opinions on the matter.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">And the green ones are mine. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></span></p></blockquote>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>okay. lets give a norrathian a handgun, and put him up against a wizard. wizard says one word, handgun melts into norrathian's flesh. give norrathians a modern plane. wizard casts icecomet on it. the impact causes the bombs to explode midair, possibly taking out other planes in formation.a fusion spell forming instantly on top of a group of musket armed soldiers. the heat vaporizes thier weapons and thier bodies in a matter of seconds. while I may have been wrong on the nuclear weapon thing.musket loading qeynos guard vs fireball slinging wizard. qeynos gets his shot off, wizard uses shield to deflect the bullet, and then vaporizes guard while he's reloading. but your right, not everyone is a wizard.but spell slinging items are available to non wizards.why would you invent a flintlock, when you have a wand that shoots fireballs. or icicles, or spew poisonous gas, or acidic fluid. that is norrath's handgun.in order to make the modern plane, you'd have to invent the wright brothers version. both of which would be decimated by a griffon or a sokokar.</blockquote><p>Basically you're ignoring the wizards die in one hit, but they can destroy anything, including archers, swordsmen, tanks, planes, or guys with guns. It isn't as easy as you try to make it sound. Bomb also don't randomly explode in mid-air. I don't see how you can target something 10,000+ feet in the air while it's moving at 700 miles per hour. <span style="color: #cc0000;">The thing is first generation plains did not fly at 10k feet or at 700 MPH(heck most modern plains while deploying thier weopons don't fly that fast. </span>In case you didn't know, there are these two gnomes in Zek that is an easter egg to the Wright Brothers. <span style="color: #cc0000;">Who are researching how to use a Catapult to get you to DFC faster(you must read the lore sometime)</span> The first airplanes were used for scouting. <span style="color: #cc0000;">THe first airplanes where used as toys as they flew about 10ft off the ground and moved at about 50MPH, sound familar(yeah sounds like a magic carpet) </span>They had no guns at all. Scouts would often fly by each other and even wave. Sometimes they would use small arms or throw bricks in an attempt to kill the other pilot.</p><p>Also Eriol, yes, one arrow will likely kill you. One slash with a sword will likely kill you or put you out of action for the rest of the battle. Problem is, how are you going to hit your target when he has already hit you?<span style="color: #cc0000;">Well consitering his first shot missed as did his second and likly his third, and he has now givin you a full MINUTE to close within sword range, I don't think it would be a problem to hit the guy with the gun. Again what your missing is until about 1860 it a)took about 20sec to reload your weopon, b) chances are 1 in 2 that you would miss what you are aiming at, c) what made Muskets useful is Mass fire tactics, where you lined up say in a group about 10 people min across and 4 rows deep and fired from 2 rows at a time in mass.</span></p><p>Technology beats magical spells to a limit. Magic isn't " Wow, you can't even touch me I'm super powerful and I can stop huge armies of highly advanced troops with stuff that I don't even know have weaknesses to. "You know just because you are advanced does not mean that you will win. <span style="color: #cc0000;">And also I think in the thousand or so years that it would take to progress from the Matchlock to the modern gun, that they guys reasearching magic would come up with a counter to that. You also have to remember that in a world of Magic, Magic ablities also don't stand still they progress as well, for exsample 500 years ago fighters could not use magic as part of thier attacks, now they do(cause the do heat damage in some of thier attacks).</span></p><p> Before Rainy decides to repeat himself to me, please read these Wikipedia articles -</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_%28projectile%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_...28projectile%29</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft</a></p><p>Perhaps if you knew more about modern day technology and how they work, maybe you wouldn't think magic is so invincible.</p></blockquote><p>You have to remember though that if an invention does not prove suppour in its FIRST incarnation then it WILL NOT reseave continued reasearch. First off it took nearly 200 years to go from a Matchlock(wich is what did not replace the Bow, because allittle rain turned it into a club) to a Flintlock. An befor that it took two hands to fire a "hand cannon" as you had to light the pan itself, there was no lock mechinism. Heck China had Gunpower perfected for like a 1k years and how many "Guns" did they have?</p><p>The problem is you are looking at the siduation with Modern Hinesite. Try this would you give up your Jet Fighter for the Wright Flyer? or your Mechien Gun for a Matchlock? or Your Abrams Tank for a Suit of Armor(remember a player in a magically inhanced suit of armor can withstand Litteral Tons of Force placed on it by say A Giant steping on them, would an Abrams servive that? probly but I know the first tanks wouldn't have.)</p><p>And as for Necesity being the mother of invention then explain to me why in the Thousands of years of human exsistance that its only in the last 200 to 300years at MOST that ALL of the devices you posted where made and MOST of them are refinments on a product that would not even get a second look, in a socity that uses magic.</p><p>BTW, I don't get where you say that everyone does not use magic. Fighters use Magically imbued armor and use magic in thier attacks(how do you explain attacks that do Heat damage if they don't use magic) they just devoted themselfs to the protection of others instead of, flashy high damage attacks, Scouts use magic as well(especally bards) again they have Heat and Cold attacks, Heck Rangers are able to a)summon arrows out of the air, and b) are able to on certain attacks use endless quivers. And we all know Priests and Mages use magic. And as far as NPCs go, those that we interact with regularly all seem to have some magic ablity or another.</p><p>Also Muskets where only usful in battle fields where the armies where within about 100 yards of each other (other wise they where outside of range) AND where both sides where lined up waiting to be shot. Because like I said befor at over about 30yards you where more likly to hit the guy standing next to who you where aiming at then the guy you where aiming at, so they where only usful in massed attacks, and the fact that in Norath single and small group combate(yes 24 people is still small group) is prized far and away above massed troup victories, the extreem inacuracy of the Musket would render it usless. Especally when your opponant can rain fire on you.</p></blockquote><p>Have you ever even shot a gun before? You don't seem to understand exactly 'how powerful' an explosive device is. You seem to be saying that in another what-would-happen theroy, Norrath would win if Earth deployed all of it's weapons against it.</p><p> Edit: I spoke with two friends in-game about it, they agree that they wouldn't stand a chance against modern weapons. I give up attempting to convince you, even though the topic has already derailed into another subject twice...I think?</p>

[Kamimura]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p> Edit: I spoke with two friends in-game about it, they agree that they wouldn't stand a chance against <b>modern weapons.</b> </p></blockquote>However, modern weapons and the technology they came from are two different things. We didn't just start out with atom bombs, tanks, and the like. Norrath has no need for many of the earlier forms of these things because of magic and such. You're looking back and seeing the current result of the progress - much different than being in the past and trying to look far forward. If these early forms came into Norrath, they would not be very powerful or useful compared to what they already have. No one would see the reason to work on and advance technology that they do not find worth in. Instead, Norrathians continue to research and progress in areas which they currently see more benefit in.

[Mary the Prophetess]

Even the most powerful bomb humans currently possess in the twenty first century could not rip the moon apart;  but magic seems to have done the trick quite handily in this FANTASY millieu.

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even the most powerful bomb humans currently possess in the twenty first century could not rip the moon apart;</blockquote>Totally incorrect. Nuclear bombs. We poccess ( as in the all the countries in the planet ) so many nuclear weapons we can destroy Earth five times with all the raw nuclear power we have stored in these weapons.

[Mirander_1]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even the most powerful bomb humans currently possess in the twenty first century could not rip the moon apart;</blockquote>Totally incorrect. Nuclear bombs. We poccess ( as in the all the countries in the planet ) so many nuclear weapons we can destroy Earth five times with all the raw nuclear power we have stored in these weapons.</blockquote>Granted, nukes have the power to scorch all life from the surface of the Earth, but to my knowledge, they aren't powerful enough to essentially crack a planet (or a moon) in half, as what happened to Luclin.

[Ordate]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even the most powerful bomb humans currently possess in the twenty first century could not rip the moon apart;</blockquote>Totally incorrect. Nuclear bombs. We poccess ( as in the all the countries in the planet ) so many nuclear weapons we can destroy Earth five times with all the raw nuclear power we have stored in these weapons.</blockquote>Err you are partially correct.  The quote about destroying the Earth 5 times over is one outdated and more importantly is not dealing with the fracturing of a planetary body but changing the ecology and doing some light damage to the topography.  There are no known values or even estimates to what type of forces are needed to fracture a planet.

[Daine]

First of all, there were significant losses of technology during the Rending and the Shattering.  Much old knowledge was lost and people lost contact, effectively halting a lot of innovation that might otherwise have taken place if great minds were to meet.Second of all you seem to be focusing primarily on weapons technology, which is certainly not Norrath's priority.  Think about it...they already had the power to challenge the gods on their own planes.  What more do you need?  There is no NEED for nukes on Norrath.  Spells and magical armor are more effective than any meager precursor to bulletproof vests or guns that might be invented.  If somebody invented a musket on Norrath, a warder would laugh and repel the bullet.  Somebody invents a tank, somebody's going to be able to stifle the person controlling it, or even root the tank.  Offensive innovation is just not what most of Norrath needs at the moment.Any technology that's going to take off and be popular is probably going to be constructive...building a gateway to Drinal, inventing better emergency supplies for explorers in Kunark, even building a factory to mass produce armor (tradeskillers wouldn't like that but in a roleplaying sense it is true to what might be popular among benefactors for this research).I understand that modern weapons are extremely powerful but technology would probably grow in a parallel fashion...as tanks and nukes and guns were perfected, upgrades for spells would be perfected as well.  Contemporary magic might not be enough to stop a bomb, but by the time the bomb was <i>invented</i>, magic would probably be on par with it both in terms of stopping the bomb and in terms of dealing similar damage.It's a fantasy game.   There are a lot of people playing the series whose mommies and daddies might be okay with some make believe lightning attacks, but who might not like their kid dropping a bomb on an enemy force for a quest.Plus, even for the older players, being able to kill instantly or hit a button to make a full suit of armor would just be boring.  It would ruin the point of the game, the part that is interactive.  That interactivity is why I choose to play EQ2 rather than WoW, Halo, or others.  It just appeals to a different crowd /shrug.

[ke'la]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>okay. lets give a norrathian a handgun, and put him up against a wizard. wizard says one word, handgun melts into norrathian's flesh. give norrathians a modern plane. wizard casts icecomet on it. the impact causes the bombs to explode midair, possibly taking out other planes in formation.a fusion spell forming instantly on top of a group of musket armed soldiers. the heat vaporizes thier weapons and thier bodies in a matter of seconds. while I may have been wrong on the nuclear weapon thing.musket loading qeynos guard vs fireball slinging wizard. qeynos gets his shot off, wizard uses shield to deflect the bullet, and then vaporizes guard while he's reloading. but your right, not everyone is a wizard.but spell slinging items are available to non wizards.why would you invent a flintlock, when you have a wand that shoots fireballs. or icicles, or spew poisonous gas, or acidic fluid. that is norrath's handgun.in order to make the modern plane, you'd have to invent the wright brothers version. both of which would be decimated by a griffon or a sokokar.</blockquote><p>Basically you're ignoring the wizards die in one hit, but they can destroy anything, including archers, swordsmen, tanks, planes, or guys with guns. It isn't as easy as you try to make it sound. Bomb also don't randomly explode in mid-air. I don't see how you can target something 10,000+ feet in the air while it's moving at 700 miles per hour. <span style="color: #cc0000;">The thing is first generation plains did not fly at 10k feet or at 700 MPH(heck most modern plains while deploying thier weopons don't fly that fast. </span>In case you didn't know, there are these two gnomes in Zek that is an easter egg to the Wright Brothers. <span style="color: #cc0000;">Who are researching how to use a Catapult to get you to DFC faster(you must read the lore sometime)</span> The first airplanes were used for scouting. <span style="color: #cc0000;">THe first airplanes where used as toys as they flew about 10ft off the ground and moved at about 50MPH, sound familar(yeah sounds like a magic carpet) </span>They had no guns at all. Scouts would often fly by each other and even wave. Sometimes they would use small arms or throw bricks in an attempt to kill the other pilot.</p><p>Also Eriol, yes, one arrow will likely kill you. One slash with a sword will likely kill you or put you out of action for the rest of the battle. Problem is, how are you going to hit your target when he has already hit you?<span style="color: #cc0000;">Well consitering his first shot missed as did his second and likly his third, and he has now givin you a full MINUTE to close within sword range, I don't think it would be a problem to hit the guy with the gun. Again what your missing is until about 1860 it a)took about 20sec to reload your weopon, b) chances are 1 in 2 that you would miss what you are aiming at, c) what made Muskets useful is Mass fire tactics, where you lined up say in a group about 10 people min across and 4 rows deep and fired from 2 rows at a time in mass.</span></p><p>Technology beats magical spells to a limit. Magic isn't " Wow, you can't even touch me I'm super powerful and I can stop huge armies of highly advanced troops with stuff that I don't even know have weaknesses to. "You know just because you are advanced does not mean that you will win. <span style="color: #cc0000;">And also I think in the thousand or so years that it would take to progress from the Matchlock to the modern gun, that they guys reasearching magic would come up with a counter to that. You also have to remember that in a world of Magic, Magic ablities also don't stand still they progress as well, for exsample 500 years ago fighters could not use magic as part of thier attacks, now they do(cause the do heat damage in some of thier attacks).</span></p><p> Before Rainy decides to repeat himself to me, please read these Wikipedia articles -</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_ball</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breechloading</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannons</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_%28projectile%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_...28projectile%29</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Gun</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howitzer</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft</a></p><p>Perhaps if you knew more about modern day technology and how they work, maybe you wouldn't think magic is so invincible.</p></blockquote><p>You have to remember though that if an invention does not prove suppour in its FIRST incarnation then it WILL NOT reseave continued reasearch. First off it took nearly 200 years to go from a Matchlock(wich is what did not replace the Bow, because allittle rain turned it into a club) to a Flintlock. An befor that it took two hands to fire a "hand cannon" as you had to light the pan itself, there was no lock mechinism. Heck China had Gunpower perfected for like a 1k years and how many "Guns" did they have?</p><p>The problem is you are looking at the siduation with Modern Hinesite. Try this would you give up your Jet Fighter for the Wright Flyer? or your Mechien Gun for a Matchlock? or Your Abrams Tank for a Suit of Armor(remember a player in a magically inhanced suit of armor can withstand Litteral Tons of Force placed on it by say A Giant steping on them, would an Abrams servive that? probly but I know the first tanks wouldn't have.)</p><p>And as for Necesity being the mother of invention then explain to me why in the Thousands of years of human exsistance that its only in the last 200 to 300years at MOST that ALL of the devices you posted where made and MOST of them are refinments on a product that would not even get a second look, in a socity that uses magic.</p><p>BTW, I don't get where you say that everyone does not use magic. Fighters use Magically imbued armor and use magic in thier attacks(how do you explain attacks that do Heat damage if they don't use magic) they just devoted themselfs to the protection of others instead of, flashy high damage attacks, Scouts use magic as well(especally bards) again they have Heat and Cold attacks, Heck Rangers are able to a)summon arrows out of the air, and b) are able to on certain attacks use endless quivers. And we all know Priests and Mages use magic. And as far as NPCs go, those that we interact with regularly all seem to have some magic ablity or another.</p><p>Also Muskets where only usful in battle fields where the armies where within about 100 yards of each other (other wise they where outside of range) AND where both sides where lined up waiting to be shot. Because like I said befor at over about 30yards you where more likly to hit the guy standing next to who you where aiming at then the guy you where aiming at, so they where only usful in massed attacks, and the fact that in Norath single and small group combate(yes 24 people is still small group) is prized far and away above massed troup victories, the extreem inacuracy of the Musket would render it usless. Especally when your opponant can rain fire on you.</p></blockquote><p>Have you ever even shot a gun before? You don't seem to understand exactly 'how powerful' an explosive device is. You seem to be saying that in another what-would-happen theroy, Norrath would win if Earth deployed all of it's weapons against it.</p><p> Edit: I spoke with two friends in-game about it, they agree that they wouldn't stand a chance against modern weapons. I give up attempting to convince you, even though the topic has already derailed into another subject twice...I think?</p></blockquote><p>What you FAIL TO UNDERSTAND is that in order to have MODEREN WEOPONS, you must first have the CRAPTASTIC weopons that preseaded them, and when you compair even semi-modern weopons(such as the bi-plane) to what is available in Norath those things come up short, and as they come up short they would not use them. Also your Assuming that a) they would suddenly without the THOUSAND PLUS years of development get these weopons and thier for be unprepared to defend against them, well guess what if they did advance the techonlogy themselfs then they WOULD have the ablity to find ways to defend against them(heck we have that now with full body armor that can take a Rifleshot at close range, you magicaly imbue it to not interfear at all with the ablities of the wearer to move and guess what that rifle is now a club because the bullits do don't have much of an effect(see the shooting in LA)). b) have you ever been hit by an Ice Commet? or Stepped on by a Giant those things hurt to but Norathians shrug that damage off... so who would win if both where suddenly introduced to each other and started to fight... I don't know but it would be a close fight... until all the Modern weopons are destroyied, because one thing you fail to put in the calculation is that Norathians can Resurect the Dead, or turn YOUR DEAD into solders in THIER army, and as eventually you WILL run out of Bullits and Tanks and Planes in the end even the Modern Weopons would lose.</p><p>I am also glad you and your two friends agree that modern weopons beat magic, but facts are facts and you don't get modern weopons if you don't first pass through Achent Weopons.</p><p>Oh one other thing required for Powered Flight is the Internal Combustion Engine and consitering there is NO evidance of Oil and the only type of Engine we see is are VERY basic and highly unstable Steam Engine(so we are talking about 1400s technology) we are a good LONG way from Powered Flight.</p>

[ke'la]

One other thing people are forgetting is that what happened durring the Age of Caticlisams is about 100x worst then the fall of Rome, and consitering Rome had a large percentage of what we would consiter Modern Technology and Convinances(That where not duplicated, even in the US until around 1900), things like Indoor Plumbing in every house hold, an National Road system, heck the Cross Bow was used by the Romans, was forgot, and reinvented by the French I beleave.... I mean it wasn't until about 1860s at the earliest that you could say that we surpased Roman Technolagy in all areas. Thats one heck of a long time to recover.

[Rainmare]

yes, a 9mm handgun would outdo a wizard.a stealth bomber or a f-16 could probably outmatch a druid/wizardyes, the Atomic bomb would possible be more effiective than the Fusion or Ice comet spell.but what we keep arguing to you is that you can't have a 9mm without first going through all the guns before it. you can's have an M-16 or an uzi without fist having the musket rifle.adn the flintlock, and the musket rifle, are seriously underpowered compared to the abilities of spells, or spell imbued items.a wand of fireball doesn't require you to do anything more than point it and say 'fireball', then point it at the next person, and say 'fireball' a wizard can trhow a fireball at you, and then a lighting bolt at the man next to you, or for fun, incinerate you all at the same time with ice comet or Fusion.a flintlock, or a musket, requires you to shoot it one time, then reload it. you have to put in the metal ball, put in the powder in the right amount, then aim and shoot. the fast loading people did this in what? 35-45 seconds. it takes much less time for me to say 1 word then it would take you to load that gun.and without a need for a musket or a flintlock, then there is no basis upon which to build the 9mm weapon.now lets go with planes. to get to a bomber, you have to get past the wright brother plane. the wright brother plane is inferior to griffins or sokokar, not only because these animals can already fly and be trained to carry riders, but because they come with built in weaponry. thus, outside of those gnomes, you'd never see someone trying to build the wright plane, thus, no modern plane. not to mention they are intelligent and easily fixable. if you injure a griffon's wing, making it unable to fly, it is still a useful land mount, and it's wing will heal on it's own, or can be healed with minimal effort. try doing that with a plane.but the other reason is probably just like Foozle said, they aren't even thinking about weapons right now in tech terms. like that gnome. he's not trying to build a weapon, he's trying to create a fridge. being able to store food for long periods is much more important then trying to develop a gun, considering that the last apparent remaining gnomes of steamfont are corralled on top of a mountain. the gnomes on Zek are trying to create faster transportation because there's no griffons on Zek, not because they think they can improve on griffons.devices like the fridge, or the telephone, or a phonograph may come along. they may eventaully get magically powered TV (mana batteries). But guns, bombs and planes? nope. what they got is far greater than the prerequisites of thier modern day versions.

[Mary the Prophetess]

<p>The whole discussion is patently absurd.  </p><p>This is a FANTASY game.  Fantasy will ALWAYS be able to trump reality.  In the real world the immutable laws of physics place limits on technological capability.  No such constraints exist in a fantasy or science fiction world.</p><p>Think that your 50 megaton warhead is a bad boy?  Fine, simply discover, (INVENT), a 'disintigration' spell or a 'death star'!  The point is there are NO LIMITS in fantasy.  </p><p>One might as well be arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.</p><p>By the way, as long as people are playing fast and loose with their assertions, The asteroid impact that led to the series of ecological disasters which wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago was 10,000 times the size of all the world's nuclear bombs combined!  It was 10km in diameter, and left a 180km crater off the Yuccatan.  Yet even as cataclysmic an event as that did not fracture the planatary crust,  nor did it lead to the total extinction of life on the planet as our continued discussions here poinently demonstrate.  And that was by no means the only, (or even the largest), impact event in earth's history!</p>

[Daine]

/agrees with Mary.  The whole thing is pretty absurd in the first place since it's a pointless debate.  We can all assert that Norrath will not get bombs and tanks any time soon.  It's all just a 'what if' statement, and fantasy ALWAYS wins.

[liveja]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>no cannons or early muskets?</p></blockquote><p>For which I'm very glad. I got really really sick of guns in WoW.</p><p>Frankly, I wish SOE would get rid of all the steam-powered gizmos, & quit following the Weiss/Hickman stereotype of all Gnomes being mal-adjusted, warped, crazed mechanical engineers. It was funny for a while, but it's soooooooo overblown, now.</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">It is <b><u>NOT</u></b> absurd, otherwise it would not have made the Thanksgiving Treasure Chest! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes the Moon went Boom it wasn't magic but a godlings quantum-output <i>(I hesitate to call it a mirical, maybe wrath)</i>  that did the moon in. and we could destroy a moon with a nuclear weapon it's just a matter of where you put the device, faultlines and volcanos. can you imagine what would happen if the ring of fire was seeded with the devices? It might not do an Alderan but it would definatly crack the crust.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes the rending and shattering would make travel and invention more difficult, But in the santuary cities they would be rushing to invent things to help them through it. Sure the Focus would be on Anti-seige weaponry, but many inventions started oput as something else first.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">The Harness Questline has Black-Powder, a heavy barrel to channel the energy and shrapnel or projectiles would be something many Gnomes, Humans and Erudites would be able to see the applications strait off.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Heck, even the Dwarves would be able to see it if they use the stuff for, left it in a drill hole and the cap came shooting off  killing someone. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Musketts would have to be a Mastercrafted Tinkered Item even Magi-tech, versions like <i><b>Brock's Thermal Shocker</b> (BTW can we get some range on the thing? it's recast is so slow for it's current range) </i></span></p>

[troodon]

<cite>Ordate wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are no known values or even estimates to what type of forces are needed to fracture a planet.</blockquote><p>The amount of energy needed would be fantastical, and you would need to be quite careful about it.  You could just as easily wind up melting the entire thing as happened early in the earth's history when the moon was created (if you accept that hypothesis).  It's not a simple thing to use all of that energy on a planetary body without turning its texture ductile with all of the heat.</p><p>That aside, this argument has gone far beyond any sort of reason.  When people start to argue about whether or not a modern military airplane that can only be constructed by a single nation on the planet should exist in the game then I start to worry.</p>

[troodon]

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>rankly, I wish SOE would get rid of all the steam-powered gizmos, & quit following the Weiss/Hickman stereotype of all Gnomes being mal-adjusted, warped, crazed mechanical engineers. It was funny for a while, but it's soooooooo overblown, now.</p></blockquote>And since I'm in this thread anyways, QFE

[ke'la]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">It is <b><u>NOT</u></b> absurd, otherwise it would not have made the Thanksgiving Treasure Chest! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">It made the chest because it is interesting kinda like the Batman/Superman debate(Batman would win)</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes the Moon went Boom it wasn't magic but a godlings quantum-output <i>(I hesitate to call it a mirical, maybe wrath)</i>  that did the moon in. <span style="color: #cc0000;">Accually depending on the lore you read it was a Prismatic Dragon(the one the Raid guild will have on Farm status in a month or two) that did that too the moon.</span> and we could destroy a moon with a nuclear weapon it's just a matter of where you put the device, faultlines and volcanos. can you imagine what would happen if the ring of fire was seeded with the devices? <span style="color: #cc0000;">Nothing, a) we can't even get withing Miles of the Mantal(wich is the layer below the crust) with drilling equipment so there is no way to put a bomb deep enough to do any real damage(unless your Lex Luthor), b) Alot of very promonant siecentists beleave that the Earth was hit by an EARTH SIZED planet and all that happened was the Moon spun off. Thats it.</span> It might not do an Alderan but it would definatly crack the crust. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">it would take the explosive power of about 10million times the powere we have in our nukes to crack the crust.(why do you think we blow nukes up underground?) When they say 'it will destroy the earth' the mean it will make it impossable for US to live on it. give it some time and some other life will take our place.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes the rending and shattering would make travel and invention more difficult, But in the santuary cities they would be rushing to invent things to help them through it. Sure the Focus would be on Anti-seige weaponry, but many inventions started oput as something else first. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">There is a couple problems with this, first the two surviving citys have to deal with the HUGE refugee issue wich saps reasources that could go into advancing technology. Second, again ALOT of knowage was lots in the caticlisasm that had to be rediscovered, again it took from the fall of the Roman Empire to the 1900s to get indoor plumbing into the vast majority of homes in the most advanced country on the planet(Rome Had indoor plumbing). Third, there is the whole deal with the Piramid of Needs, and befor you can advance the Piramid(and therefor advance technolagy) you have to meet the needs(such as basic survival) of the population befor it will advance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">The Harness Questline has Black-Powder, a heavy barrel to channel the energy and shrapnel or projectiles would be something many Gnomes, Humans and Erudites would be able to see the applications strait off. <span style="color: #cc0000;">They did it works really well to knock holes in WEAK walls(splitpaw). if you have time to prep it and noone firing a fire ball at it to set it off while you carry it. However, constering almost everyone can do simalar or MORE damage in the same area of effect(and in all cases selective enough not to hit your own people, and in many other selective enough to only effect attackers), again they wouldn't see the benifit of it beyond the limited use of blowing up WEAK walls</span>.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Heck, even the Dwarves would be able to see it if they use the stuff for, left it in a drill hole and the cap came shooting off  killing someone. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">Again your discounting the fact that places like CHINA had black powder for thousands of years and did not think to use it in a gun, though they did make rockets with it. And again Yes it could kill someone, but that same weopon a) takes FOREVER to load, b) is about as likly if not MORE SO to explode in your face and kill YOU then the person your aiming at, and c) There are more powerful, accurate and SAFER ways to do the exsact same thing(remember you need the first Gen. Firearms to progress past that step).</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Musketts would have to be a Mastercrafted Tinkered Item even Magi-tech, versions like <i><b>Brock's Thermal Shocker</b> (BTW can we get some range on the thing? it's recast is so slow for it's current range)</i> </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">The range is what it is because thats about how close you have to get for that generations firearms to be accurate. It takes that long to recharge because thats how long it takes to reload that generation firearms, the only thing that is missing is the 25% change of it going Boom and killing you.</span></p><p><i></i></p></blockquote><p>Technolagy only advances if it is equal to or better then what it is replacing. The early firearms replaced the crossbow, wich gave conscripts a chance against Trained Long Bowmen, guess what it was not until the Flintlock that the Brittish(who required of all men to train with the long bow) replaced thier long bowmen. In Norath EVERYONE is a trained fighter as such, something that kinda sorta but not really gets the untrained(of wich there are VERY few) upto the ablities of the Trained(almost everyone) is not going to chetch on.</p><p>Heck, you do realise that back in the renisasonce period Clockwork Mechines where running neck and neck with other Mechine types.... Tell me wich do we use now? I could use your same argument and say why didn't we advance Clockwork Tech because if we should KNOW that evenually we could make clock work Robots like those in Klak.</p>

[Daine]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Musketts would have to be a Mastercrafted Tinkered Item even Magi-tech, versions like <i><b>Brock's Thermal Shocker</b> (BTW can we get some range on the thing? it's recast is so slow for it's current range) </i></span></p></blockquote>Side note regarding the thermal shocker:  It actually comes in quite useful in Freethinkers raids to gauge the distance everybody needs to stand from the third named.  Its range is the range needed to prevent all sorts of [Removed for Content] raid-wiping things.  You don't even have to cast it, just stick it on your hotbar and see at what distance it goes black.  I'm not sure that many other items in-game have this useful range on them =D/endnote

[Zabjade]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">It is <b><u>NOT</u></b> absurd, otherwise it would not have made the Thanksgiving Treasure Chest! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">It made the chest because it is interesting kinda like the Batman/Superman debate(Batman would win)</span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Note: the first one was a tongue-in-cheak comment as diplayed by the wink smiley. Also note that Batman has already wone several times in comics so not really a debate for that you would need Batman vs Wolverine.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes the Moon went Boom it wasn't magic but a godlings quantum-output <i>(I hesitate to call it a mirical, maybe wrath)</i>  that did the moon in. <span style="color: #cc0000;">Accually depending on the lore you read it was a Prismatic Dragon(the one the Raid guild will have on Farm status in a month or two) that did that too the moon.</span> </span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">That or Godling forces but it's up in the air until <i>Shards of Luclin</i> comes out. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">and we could destroy a moon with a nuclear weapon it's just a matter of where you put the device, faultlines and volcanos. can you imagine what would happen if the ring of fire was seeded with the devices? <span style="color: #cc0000;">Nothing, a) we can't even get withing Miles of the Mantal(wich is the layer below the crust) with drilling equipment so there is no way to put a bomb deep enough to do any real damage(unless your Lex Luthor), b) Alot of very promonant siecentists beleave that the Earth was hit by an EARTH SIZED planet and all that happened was the Moon spun off. Thats it.</span> </span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Do you really need to to loosen the techtonic plates enough to have a large shift that might cause a cascading effect, never forget the chaos factor. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was also taking about several warheads not a single one. </span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">What sience believes and what it can prove are two diffrent things.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">It might not do an Alderan but it would definatly crack the crust. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">it would take the explosive power of about 10million times the powere we have in our nukes to crack the crust.(why do you think we blow nukes up underground?) When they say 'it will destroy the earth' the mean it will make it impossable for US to live on it. give it some time and some other life will take our place.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">In this case I was refering to a Moon  size planetoid which is roughly the size of the United States and something that size you would be able to crack the crust. It all depends on where the fracture point is. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Point is I think the above part is off subject <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes the rending and shattering would make travel and invention more difficult, But in the santuary cities they would be rushing to invent things to help them through it. Sure the Focus would be on Anti-seige weaponry, but many inventions started oput as something else first. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">There is a couple problems with this, first the two surviving citys have to deal with the HUGE refugee issue wich saps reasources that could go into advancing technology. Second, again ALOT of knowage was lots in the caticlisasm that had to be rediscovered, again it took from the fall of the Roman Empire to the 1900s to get indoor plumbing into the vast majority of homes in the most advanced country on the planet(Rome Had indoor plumbing). Third, there is the whole deal with the Piramid of Needs, and befor you can advance the Piramid(and therefor advance technolagy) you have to meet the needs(such as basic survival) of the population befor it will advance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;"><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Not really, Lucan would have agents looking for those who would have the knowledge to put him ahead. Even Qeynos would put the skilled at the top of the refugee lists. Add to the fact Lucan is very old and likely has items squirreled away and the Bayle's probably do as well. Add to this the Far Seas Trading Company was very quickto take advantage of the oceans and are the first in many areas what do they have access to that others don't</span></span><span style="color: #009900;">.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Yes Rome had indoor plumbing in the public bathhouses but not so much in the house to house <i>(Qeynos also has fountains so indoor plumbing is very likely and stormhold has the only toilet in game, imagine the long lines all across Norrath) </i>I blame Europe for the slowness of it returning Indoor plumbing? Witchcraft!!! Making survival easier is survival.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">The Harness Questline has Black-Powder, a heavy barrel to channel the energy and shrapnel or projectiles would be something many Gnomes, Humans and Erudites would be able to see the applications strait off. <span style="color: #cc0000;">They did it works really well to knock holes in WEAK walls(splitpaw). if you have time to prep it and noone firing a fire ball at it to set it off while you carry it. However, constering almost everyone can do simalar or MORE damage in the same area of effect(and in all cases selective enough not to hit your own people, and in many other selective enough to only effect attackers), again they wouldn't see the benifit of it beyond the limited use of blowing up WEAK walls</span>.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Most of the powder would be for cannon emplacements like on ships or as an artilliary for militaries since it might have better range then most magic I've seen in-game. In a 6 man group no not useful, in a raid like instance slightly so, specially if they ever have player ships.</span> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Heck, even the Dwarves would be able to see it if they use the stuff for, left it in a drill hole and the cap came shooting off  killing someone. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">Again your discounting the fact that places like CHINA had black powder for thousands of years and did not think to use it in a gun, though they did make rockets with it. And again Yes it could kill someone, but that same weopon a) takes FOREVER to load, b) is about as likly if not MORE SO to explode in your face and kill YOU then the person your aiming at, and c) There are more powerful, accurate and SAFER ways to do the exsact same thing(remember you need the first Gen. Firearms to progress past that step).</span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">China had a Very regimented society even if those who made the fireworks figured it out they would not be able to communicate this to the Nobles and generals who would institute this. I'm sure with tinkering comming back into it's own it is only a matter of in-game time before something similar comes about. After all we already have fireworks and tinkered fireworks in the game.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Musketts would have to be a Mastercrafted Tinkered Item even Magi-tech, versions like <i><b>Brock's Thermal Shocker</b> (BTW can we get some range on the thing? it's recast is so slow for it's current range)</i> </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">The range is what it is because thats about how close you have to get for that generations firearms to be accurate. It takes that long to recharge because thats how long it takes to reload that generation firearms, the only thing that is missing is the 25% change of it going Boom and killing you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I like the above poster's idea better it makes a perfect distance measurer, beside this part was to the Developers not for debate ;P</span></p></blockquote><p>Technolagy only advances if it is equal to or better then what it is replacing. The early firearms replaced the crossbow, wich gave conscripts a chance against Trained Long Bowmen, guess what it was not until the Flintlock that the Brittish(who required of all men to train with the long bow) replaced thier long bowmen. In Norath EVERYONE is a trained fighter as such, something that kinda sorta but not really gets the untrained(of wich there are VERY few) upto the ablities of the Trained(almost everyone) is not going to chetch on.</p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">But not every one is trained to end game raider level, most have of the NPC population has a few levels fighter and more on crafter. For Firearms I would say range would be it's strength and with magical argumentation you can increase the accuracy. I'm not saying that it is either magic or technology. On Norrath it will likely end up a fusion of said disciplines. Magi-tech</span></p><p>Heck, you do realise that back in the renisasonce period Clockwork Mechines where running neck and neck with other Mechine types.... Tell me wich do we use now? I could use your same argument and say why didn't we advance Clockwork Tech because if we should KNOW that evenually we could make clock work Robots like those in Klak.</p><p><span style="color: #009900;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Some clockwork still exists, some of the finest swiss watches, Town clocks, many motors still have many clockwork type parts just not as recognisable as cogs and such. Most machines with moving parts have some type of gears which are clockworks.</span></p></blockquote>

[Mordeak]

In my opinion, the only thing to come close to the musket on Norrath is the following:Somebody (most likely a scholar) will invent magic infused pellets (cold, heat, poison, disease, ....) that do damage when they hit something with force.Another person (probably a crazed gnome) will think: "How can I throw those pellets even further?", and will probably go with a sling first.Another person will think: "That sling isn't very accurate", and will invent something that will throw it even further, most likely something like a crossbow with the pellets attached to an arrow.Maybe overtime someone will combine a hollow tube, black powder and these pellets into a new weapon that resembles a musket but everything invented will be powered with magic.And personally I wouldn't want anything else on norrath past that magic pellet driven crossbow. Let me have my little fantasy world like I like it, thank you very much.

[DrkVsr]

<cite>Mordeak wrote:</cite><blockquote>In my opinion, the only thing to come close to the musket on Norrath is the following:Somebody (most likely a scholar) will invent magic infused pellets (cold, heat, poison, disease, ....) that do damage when they hit something with force.Another person (probably a crazed gnome) will think: "How can I throw those pellets even further?", and will probably go with a sling first.Another person will think: "That sling isn't very accurate", and will invent something that will throw it even further, most likely something like a crossbow with the pellets attached to an arrow.Maybe overtime someone will combine a hollow tube, black powder and these pellets into a new weapon that resembles a musket but everything invented will be powered with magic.<b><u>And personally I wouldn't want anything else on norrath past that magic pellet driven crossbow. Let me have my little fantasy world like I like it, thank you very much.</u></b></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">And that's the bugbear: once technology gets started it's pretty tough to stop it (unless you are the self-proclaimed ruler of the so-called-free-world with oil interests)</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Btw, they still haven't introduced crossbows ingame yet <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[Ealan]

<p>You cant really speak of "everyone" in the EQ universe.  The playerbase shouldnt really be thought of as the sum total of the population.  You have to use your imagination and assume that the population is higher than the sum total of the players and the few quest give and atmosphere NPCs.  </p><p> ie - you should imagine that Qeynos, Freeport, certainly Maj'Dul, and even Kelethin and Neriak, are bustling cities.  The total population of Norrath isnt 5000 (or however many players are on a server)</p><p> That said, its a fantasy universe.  Folks who feel the need to impose real world, or sci-fi, concepts onto high fantasy are seeking to frustrate themselves.  The WHOLE POINT is that there is no technology.  To us, magic is a myth.  To them, technology is a myth.  We say "why arent they developing technology?????"  THEY would say "why do they have NO magic"?</p><p> Remember, magic isnt anywhere NEAR about just hurling fireballs.  How many magic ITEMS float around Norrath?  Warriors are armed and armored to the TEETH in magic and take and deliver far more damage than we could ever imagine.  In addition, how many potions and devices are there?  Magic impacts even the lowest of people on Norrath the same way technology does for us.  Probably much moreso.  The magic inherant in the world itself allows fighters to perform the kind of miraculous feats they are able to.  Do you think its just simple training that allows the advanced fighting disciplines to be possible???</p><p> Think of it like the more fanciful Kung Fu movies.  There is no way NORMAL training is enough to allow you to run up walls or pull Matrix level maneuvers.  In those Kung Fu movies and in fantasy worlds the implication is that magic exists and takes more forms than just the obvious kind where some individuals learn to control energy flows.  For bards, the magic manifests in song.  For fighters, it manifests in enhanced physical ability.</p><p> How would a level 80 warrior with 140 achievment points be made more effective by a 9mm and kevlar?  Do you think Elric, or Conan or Legolas really would be made more effective by basic weaponry?  As a result, magic fills all of the "gaps" in their lives and silly tinkering like the gnomes are doing is seen as the equivalent of folks in OUR world praying to crystals and studying enochian texts thinking they're going to be the next Merlin.</p>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Ealan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You cant really speak of "everyone" in the EQ universe.  The playerbase shouldnt really be thought of as the sum total of the population.  You have to use your imagination and assume that the population is higher than the sum total of the players and the few quest give and atmosphere NPCs.  </p><p> ie - you should imagine that Qeynos, Freeport, certainly Maj'Dul, and even Kelethin and Neriak, are bustling cities.  The total population of Norrath isnt 5000 (or however many players are on a server)</p><p> That said, its a fantasy universe.  Folks who feel the need to impose real world, or sci-fi, concepts onto high fantasy are seeking to frustrate themselves.  The WHOLE POINT is that there is no technology.  To us, magic is a myth.  To them, technology is a myth.  We say "why arent they developing technology?????"  THEY would say "why do they have NO magic"?</p><p> Remember, magic isnt anywhere NEAR about just hurling fireballs.  How many magic ITEMS float around Norrath?  Warriors are armed and armored to the TEETH in magic and take and deliver far more damage than we could ever imagine.  In addition, how many potions and devices are there?  Magic impacts even the lowest of people on Norrath the same way technology does for us.  Probably much moreso.  The magic inherant in the world itself allows fighters to perform the kind of miraculous feats they are able to.  Do you think its just simple training that allows the advanced fighting disciplines to be possible???</p><p> Think of it like the more fanciful Kung Fu movies.  There is no way NORMAL training is enough to allow you to run up walls or pull Matrix level maneuvers.  In those Kung Fu movies and in fantasy worlds the implication is that magic exists and takes more forms than just the obvious kind where some individuals learn to control energy flows.  For bards, the magic manifests in song.  For fighters, it manifests in enhanced physical ability.</p><p> How would a level 80 warrior with 140 achievment points be made more effective by a 9mm and kevlar?  Do you think Elric, or Conan or Legolas really would be made more effective by basic weaponry?  As a result, magic fills all of the "gaps" in their lives and silly tinkering like the gnomes are doing is seen as the equivalent of folks in OUR world praying to crystals and studying enochian texts thinking they're going to be the next Merlin.</p></blockquote><p>YOU have been shot for 482,789 points of damage! YOU have been hit by a tank round for 976,976,243 points of damage! Your magical armor has absorbed 8462 points of damage!</p><p>* Walking through the vastness of Antonica as a wizard *</p><p>YOU have been hit by an artillery shell shot from the other side of the map! Your magical cloth armor didn't do anything to protect you!</p><p>* /rez * * Sees an airplane in the sky *</p><p>* /icecometspell * * No target! *</p><p>YOU HAVE DIED!</p><p>* Is a ranger wearing a full suit of magical enchanted leather armor *</p><p>* /headshotbysniperifle *</p><p>Your face has no armor! You have died! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Gukkor2]

<p>I have to agree with the others here in saying that magic changes everything.  Much like how in video games and such, fanciful moves and techniques that would be impractical or even impossible in a real fight become perfectly reasonable maneuvers due to the presence of superhuman abilities in the mix, the presence of magic in the world of Norrath means that weapons such as swords and bows remain effective enough that it would be a waste of time researching technology along the lines of firearms.  An enchanted bow and arrow or even a simple spell can do the job just as well, if not better than a gun could, and many higher level spells have shown potential destructive power rivaling that of artillery.  Moreover (and I may well be wrong about this), I've seen nothing to suggest that gunpowder even exists on Norrath, at least not as we know it here.  That would be quite a large problem in firearms development, no?</p><p>   </p>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have to agree with the others here in saying that magic changes everything.  Much like how in video games and such, fanciful moves and techniques that would be impractical or even impossible in a real fight become perfectly reasonable maneuvers due to the presence of superhuman abilities in the mix, the presence of magic in the world of Norrath means that weapons such as swords and bows remain effective enough that it would be a waste of time researching technology along the lines of firearms.  An enchanted bow and arrow or even a simple spell can do the job just as well, if not better than a gun could, and many higher level spells have shown potential destructive power rivaling that of artillery.  Moreover (and I may well be wrong about this), I've seen nothing to suggest that gunpowder even exists on Norrath, at least not as we know it here.  That would be quite a large problem in firearms development, no?</p><p>   </p></blockquote>To my knowledge, spells have extremely limited range. This includes bows and swords as well. As for not having any of the materials required to make gunpowder, I would doubt it. You see many resources found on Earth in-game, so it would be safe to guess that the same materials needed to make gunpowder exist as well.

[Nocturnal Aby]

<p>We know they have some sort of explosive substances, as you use them throughout the Splitpaw expansion to blow up walls, and even gnolls, if you so desire.</p><p>And Barrelroll, in response to your post a few previous, where you are saying tanks and mortar shots, and sniper bullets..you seem to be ignoring everyone as we try and tell you that before you can have tanks, mortars, and the like, you have to progress.  If someone were to start using firearms right now, it would be more like:</p><p>YOU fire a matchlock hand cannon (range of 5), but YOU miss!</p><p>*wait for 2 minute delay*</p><p>YOU fire a matchlock hand cannon, but it blows up, causing 500 points of heat damage to YOU! (and anyone near you)</p><p>Ranger laughs.</p><p>Ranger shoots YOU in the head with an arrow for 954 points of piercing damage.</p><p>You are dead.</p><p>Loading....Please Wait.</p><p>In order to have affective firearms, there needs to be the progression.  I'm not saying it won't happen.  More than likely, a gnome will invent it, if you consider Brock's Thermal Shocker, some might say they already have, though that looks more like a device that shoots a fireball than a bullet.</p><p>Gnomes are the only people who would keep creating things despite them being nigh useless.</p><p>Moreover, even technology would be affected by magic, and is.  We see the creations of the gnomes being affected by what they call Mechanamagic, a fusion of technology, and magic, but still magic.  The gnomish devices use arcane power sources (mana batteries), enchanted and imbued devices at times, and for those that keep saying the mass majority of the populace doesn't use magic, that's not necessarily true.  They might not use magic to the extent of a powerful, adventuring enchanter, but we can see various people around the cities DO have magical talents, using the Erudite Sense Aura sight.  With magic being real, it would be foolish to assume that only the profficient at it use it.  Odds are, more than a few of the populace know a few little things that they've learned from somewhere, maybe their parents, perhaps an adventuring uncle, that can be used to make their lives easier.  We know for a fact that tradesman of almost any skill have the power to imbue some of their goods with magical enhancements, whether they be jewelers, wood workers, tailors, or smiths.</p><p>As Zabjade has been pointed out, if you were to see technology advance, you'd most likely see it advance as in tangent to magic.  You'll probably never see purely mechanical devices take hold, as magic does a much better job at ironing out the complexities of mechination than mechanical advancement.  We do see technology, we have tinkered wormhole generators, hover devices, net launchers, heart stoppers, defibrilators, and even tinkered devices that will unleash things conjured by magic.  What we see, over and over, is technology powered, or enhanced, by magic.  Why?  Because the complexities of magic are better understood than the intricacies of magic.  That said, most of the tinkered devices have a chance of blowing up in your face, which I love, because it is very realistic when considering both gnomes, and the actual reliability of what technology would be at that time.  Sort of like the gnome in the Queen's Colony who's father devised a ship, but as a contigency plan, also made it able to be a submarine, since he knew his boat would probably sink.</p><p>And finally, as has been stated, though, realistically, technology might be further along...this is a fantasy game..if I want technology, I'll go play Call of Duty 4, or Starcraft, or Halo.  This is fantasy, leave me with my magic and psuedo-medievil combat stylings.</p>

[Tamalain]

<p>Magitech could work,  if, and I mean a big if, you can get several high level spell masters and tinkers together and not try and kill each other.</p><p>Steam power is easy.  Get an fire elemental, set a permanent binding spell on it, place it in a fire box with a good air blower to make it flare up.  Plenty of free heat to boil water.  Learning how to apply the power from there is the trick.  </p><p>It looks like gnomes have made a workable turbine system, so that would mke shipping a cinch.  Surface travel would need the creation of a rail design, and a good supply of base metal iron.  Again, bound elementals could supply the heat for the metal working.  Ice and water Elementals would be good for quenching.</p><p>Guns are a seperate problem.  Black powder is doable, but the metals are not up to specs to handle to explosions involved.  Advanced steel making is needed.  We do know that feyiron is a good base metal.  Feysteel might work in a gun smithing effort.  The higher end metals would tend to be to brittle.</p><p>As for electric power, it exist in magic, but do the magic al laws allow for it to be generated artificaly?  Norrath has different laws, Pure tech may not function there at all, or at least not well.  Muscle and Animal power seems to wiork the same on Norrath as on Earth, but beyond low power steam, it is in doubt.</p><p>Just my 2cents worth.</p>

[Mirander_1]

<cite>Tamalain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Magitech could work,  if, and I mean a big if, you can get several high level spell masters and tinkers together and not try and kill each other.</p></blockquote>Magitech, as you call it, actually already exists in the game.  It's called mechanamagica, and the Gnomes are all about it.  Technologically, the Gnomes are only up to creating clockwork machinery, and so they simply use magic to fill in the blanks (for instance, the AI in the clockwork robots).

[BarrelRoll]

<p>Replying to Nocturnal Abyss, early muskets were only really effective while a group of musketeers stood in a line, firing in a single direction. In fact, they weren't even ordered to aim at their target. Muskets can cover a large area while in a group, and it only takes one shot to disable you. Work on this more, you get rifles. Accuracy problem solved.</p><p>I'm not sure when cannons popped up, but they were also inaccurate. But when they did hit their target, it would tear your limbs off. I really wouldn't say " My enchanted magical armor absorbs the 500 pound ball of iron moving at 100 mph, and doesn't even knock me down and throw me 15 feet backwards. " Even with magically enchanted armor, you would likely break your back/crack your ribcage. When you speak, you seem to be thinking of " One guy with a musket, and one ranger. " Are you aware that Norrath is at war? You're imagining a player with a musket and another player as a ranger. At least that's how you sound. If you want to bring up game mechanics and not gravity, you wouldn't really even miss.</p><p>I really don't know how many casters there are comparing to rangers or just warriors, but if a warrior got up to a guy with a gun ( even in modern day ) - You would likely lose since the guy has a sword, and you have a baynet.</p><p>Muskets were simple weapons, and didn't require a very advanced metal to keep them stable while firing.</p>

[Captain_Xpendab]

The way I figure it, when the Gods created the races of Norrath, they installed some kind of block to prevent them from ever advancing beyond a pre-industrial age no matter how much they buff their intelligence. In the Meta-Game, the Developers are making a game with a Sword and Sorcery medieval setting and your just supposed to suspend disbelief that people with all that magic available to them would never rise to more than a dark age standard of living.Norrath today reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from "My Favorite Martian""Reading her mind is like trying to read alphabet soup, all the letters are there but they just don't spell anything."Odd, I know, but what I mean is, when I look around Norrath I see all the pieces there that <i><b>SHOULD </b></i>result in a magic based society with a standard of living far better than ours. As to the disasters that struck, when you look at the powers they have available, they're ability to recover from cataclysms should be on a scale our society can't even dream of. I also agree with what has been stated before, the threats that the cities face should be pushing progress, if not in technology, then in magic (though I've always thought the idea of magic and technology being incompatible was a rather silly kludge of a plot device). They should be able to easily achieve with magic anything that our society has achieved or better, but in the 1000 years from EQOA to EQII they haven't shown a lick of progress.The people of Norrath have an amazing set of tools at their disposal, and yet for some reason they can never put the "letters" together to spell anything. I'm always imagining what 1 engineer from Earth could do within a generation if dropped into the middle of Qeynos with such tools at his or her disposal.

[Nocturnal Aby]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Replying to Nocturnal Abyss, early muskets were only really effective while a group of musketeers stood in a line, firing in a single direction. In fact, they weren't even ordered to aim at their target. Muskets can cover a large area while in a group, and it only takes one shot to disable you. Work on this more, you get rifles. Accuracy problem solved.</p><p>I'm not sure when cannons popped up, but they were also inaccurate. But when they did hit their target, it would tear your limbs off. I really wouldn't say " My enchanted magical armor absorbs the 500 pound ball of iron moving at 100 mph, and doesn't even knock me down and throw me 15 feet backwards. " Even with magically enchanted armor, you would likely break your back/crack your ribcage. When you speak, you seem to be thinking of " One guy with a musket, and one ranger. " Are you aware that Norrath is at war? You're imagining a player with a musket and another player as a ranger. At least that's how you sound. If you want to bring up game mechanics and not gravity, you wouldn't really even miss.</p><p>I really don't know how many casters there are comparing to rangers or just warriors, but if a warrior got up to a guy with a gun ( even in modern day ) - You would likely lose since the guy has a sword, and you have a baynet.</p><p>Muskets were simple weapons, and didn't require a very advanced metal to keep them stable while firing.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, only certain parts of Norrath is at war, by and large, the majority of combat takes place in small skirmishes, and no matter what the battle, you don't see foes lined up against one another, which is what warfare was when before, during, and even after firearms took root.  Two or more sides came down, faced one another, and shot at each other until one side decided they had lost enough men.  In fact, one of the reasons that the countries wore such bright colors (red, blue, yellow, bright green) was in hopes that they could tell who was who when the battle fields got all smokey from the gunfire...</p><p>But even that was easily a hundred years (most likely more) after firearms started being used.  Rifling the barrel wasn't even imagined until sometime after.  The game environment we play in doesn't have situations where a line of hand cannoneers would be remotely useful.  As pointed out before, the reload time was painful, and even worse, the hand cannons themselves were far from reliable, as likely to blow up in your face as to actually project the shot.</p><p>Which is more practical to have, a guy who knows how to call down a lightning bolt, or shoot a fireball from his hand, or even a guy with a shield strong enough to withstand the force of a bullet (the early projectiles weren't moving very fast once they got a few tens of yards out of the barrel)?  Firearms would have severe difficulties gaining a foothold in a world where they have the you can gain units that can call down meteors from heaven, and get the earth to shake around your targets.</p>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Nocturnal Abyss wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Replying to Nocturnal Abyss, early muskets were only really effective while a group of musketeers stood in a line, firing in a single direction. In fact, they weren't even ordered to aim at their target. Muskets can cover a large area while in a group, and it only takes one shot to disable you. Work on this more, you get rifles. Accuracy problem solved.</p><p>I'm not sure when cannons popped up, but they were also inaccurate. But when they did hit their target, it would tear your limbs off. I really wouldn't say " My enchanted magical armor absorbs the 500 pound ball of iron moving at 100 mph, and doesn't even knock me down and throw me 15 feet backwards. " Even with magically enchanted armor, you would likely break your back/crack your ribcage. When you speak, you seem to be thinking of " One guy with a musket, and one ranger. " Are you aware that Norrath is at war? You're imagining a player with a musket and another player as a ranger. At least that's how you sound. If you want to bring up game mechanics and not gravity, you wouldn't really even miss.</p><p>I really don't know how many casters there are comparing to rangers or just warriors, but if a warrior got up to a guy with a gun ( even in modern day ) - You would likely lose since the guy has a sword, and you have a baynet.</p><p>Muskets were simple weapons, and didn't require a very advanced metal to keep them stable while firing.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, only certain parts of Norrath is at war, by and large, the majority of combat takes place in small skirmishes, and no matter what the battle, you don't see foes lined up against one another, which is what warfare was when before, during, and even after firearms took root.  Two or more sides came down, faced one another, and shot at each other until one side decided they had lost enough men.  In fact, one of the reasons that the countries wore such bright colors (red, blue, yellow, bright green) was in hopes that they could tell who was who when the battle fields got all smokey from the gunfire...</p><p>But even that was easily a hundred years (most likely more) after firearms started being used.  Rifling the barrel wasn't even imagined until sometime after.  The game environment we play in doesn't have situations where a line of hand cannoneers would be remotely useful.  As pointed out before, the reload time was painful, and even worse, the hand cannons themselves were far from reliable, as likely to blow up in your face as to actually project the shot.</p><p>Which is more practical to have, a guy who knows how to call down a lightning bolt, or shoot a fireball from his hand, or even a guy with a shield strong enough to withstand the force of a bullet (the early projectiles weren't moving very fast once they got a few tens of yards out of the barrel)?  Firearms would have severe difficulties gaining a foothold in a world where they have the you can gain units that can call down meteors from heaven, and get the earth to shake around your targets.</p></blockquote><p>You still keep pointing out that magic is the only thing that can stand up against firearms. Fireballs, meteors, earthquakes and such. I'm sure you've mentioned swords, enchanted armor, and bows ( if not, others did ) against firearms, but whenever you continue debating about the topic with me you bring up the power of magic comparing to a firearm, and nothing else.</p><p>Either way, I'm sure every part of Norrath is having a mini-war with some local issue. Qeynos being gnolls, Freeport being orcs, Kelethin being orcs and evil, the Enchanted Lands being evil and goblins and such. Armies did in fact travel in huge line formations while mobile and before engaging. When they did clash in a melee battle, enemies would basically mix-match in a huge mosh pit while slashing and stabbing each other to death. I never heard of armies having to wear certain colors to show that they are friendlies or not, but I do know that airplanes are colored so you know who to shoot and who not to shoot.</p><p>You shouldn't mention the game. These are game mechanics, not something you would see in real-life. You get slashed by a sword, you'll get cut open. In-game, you don't. The entire " YOU have been shot for 9334424432 points of damage! " thing was a joke based off of the game mechanics, but of course a real-life situation isn't caculated in numbers by a magical system.</p><p>Once more, I have to say that not everyone is a magical wizard. No one is sure how much percent of the world's population are casters, fighters, or archers. No one knows if everyone is a certain class or even knows how to fight. You see that they do, because, well, game mechanics. So for warriors and archers who do have a few if no magical abilities, they would much rather want to use a weapon that you don't need to be in someone's face to hit them with it. As for archers, they already have bows over early muskets ( which they still used when armies began to use muskets ) but of course bows and swords got out-dated.</p><p>I'm sure a metal shield on a warrior can stop a musket shot, but if you even think about it - When armies began to use muskets and rifles as their primary weapons and swords as a secondary weapon (Calavry generally had swords, as well as officers. Musketeers had baynets for their muskets/rifles) people completely stopped wearing armor. Why? It won't stop a musket ball or a bullet.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Replying to Nocturnal Abyss, early muskets were only really effective while a group of musketeers stood in a line, firing in a single direction. In fact, they weren't even ordered to aim at their target. Muskets can cover a large area while in a group, and it only takes one shot to disable you. Work on this more, you get rifles. Accuracy problem solved.</p><p>I'm not sure when cannons popped up, but they were also inaccurate. But when they did hit their target, it would tear your limbs off. I really wouldn't say " My enchanted magical armor absorbs the 500 pound ball of iron moving at 100 mph, and doesn't even knock me down and throw me 15 feet backwards. " Even with magically enchanted armor, you would likely break your back/crack your ribcage. When you speak, you seem to be thinking of " One guy with a musket, and one ranger. " Are you aware that Norrath is at war? You're imagining a player with a musket and another player as a ranger. At least that's how you sound. If you want to bring up game mechanics and not gravity, you wouldn't really even miss.</p><p>I really don't know how many casters there are comparing to rangers or just warriors, but if a warrior got up to a guy with a gun ( even in modern day ) - You would likely lose since the guy has a sword, and you have a baynet.</p><p>Muskets were simple weapons, and didn't require a very advanced metal to keep them stable while firing.</p></blockquote><p>The first hand held weopon was called the HAND CANNON, and comes from the 13th centery. And it was only effective at a MAX RANGE of 300Meters, and thats assuming you accually Hit something(wich chaces are you wouldn't) It was really only effective against things you can't miss like castle walls(but Catapults and Tribusaes are just as effective and FAR safer for the user) or when you can get REALLY close and fire it off befor people knew you where thier, also if it was raining, or windy it didn't work at all.</p><p>And like we keep saying there is more then just 1 form of Magic, for exsample Monks can Freeze you, so can Swashbucklers, Rangers can do heat damage to you, all of theses things are Magical. Plus the fact that consitering that a Warior can withstand being hit with a couple of TON club wielded by a Giant that weighs more then a building (think of the kynitic energy thier) I think it is VERY possable that they can withsand a hit from a modern weopon. <i></i></p><p>As to the poster talking about the lack of real progress over the last 1k years from EQOA til EQ2, um you are aware that until from about 1200BC until about 1200AC the Technology of Earth was basicly the same. thats 2.4k years and really from 1200AC until about 1700AC firearms did not advance much(they just stoped blowing up in your face and they introduced a way to fire them in the rain), Heck the first Repeating Firearms where only made like 150 years ago if that.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>BarrelRoll wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm sure a metal shield on a warrior can stop a musket shot, but if you even think about it - When armies began to use muskets and rifles as their primary weapons and swords as a secondary weapon (Calavry generally had swords, as well as officers. Musketeers had baynets for their muskets/rifles) people completely stopped wearing armor. Why? It won't stop a musket ball or a bullet.</p></blockquote><p>What you are forgeting is that the Armor that Midevil Wariors fought in WAS NOT MAGICAL. Secondly, um they accually did develop armor that was <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">effective against WW2</a> era weopons, and it looked amazingly like 14th centery armor(you know what we wear in game) but was too restrictive and Noicy for WW2, not a problem in Norath where most armor clad people don't care about being sneaky and those that do can make them selfs invisable and nearly completly silent, and as far as being restrictive thats where magic comes in to make it easier to use. </p><p>The MAIN reason they stopped waring armor is because the Leaders(the only ones who where accually IN ARMOR for the most part) where no longer on the front lines of battel and as they where the ONLY ones the could afford it, and they didn't need it, it went out of use. It had nothing to do with it's effectiveness it had to do with the fact that you could have 1 armored solder or 1 battalion of unarmored solders for the same price. </p>

[Captain_Xpendab]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>As to the poster talking about the lack of real progress over the last 1k years from EQOA til EQ2, um you are aware that until from about 1200BC until about 1200AC the Technology of Earth was basicly the same. thats 2.4k years and really from 1200AC until about 1700AC firearms did not advance much(they just stoped blowing up in your face and they introduced a way to fire them in the rain), Heck the first Repeating Firearms where only made like 150 years ago if that.</blockquote>But the one thing the people between 1200 BC and 1200 AD didn't have was magic, an energy that is, conservatively, 10,000x more useful than electricity. It's been 255 years since Franklin flew his kites and look how our world has changed since then. The only thing that slowed the widespread use of electricity was the fact that it took around 150 years to develop the infrastructure to support it, a problem Norrath doesn't have with magic. It's an abundant resource there and the inhabitants already know how to exploit it. An energy that can <u><i><b>ALTER REALITY </b></i></u> should easily be able to do anything that electricity can do. It doesn't make any sense to me that a people with so much power literally at their fingertips would remain at such a primitive level for so long.

[Sliverhammer]

A mezzed fighter-pilot isn't going to last long <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Summon a protoferno inside a tank would be pretty funny too. Fact is, its more efficient and deadly/useful to use magic without loosing a $65 million piece of equipment, and the pilot with one cheery spell. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[troodon]

Please, just let this thread die.  It long ago drowned in its own absurdity.

[Ishya]

<cite>Sliverhammer wrote:</cite><blockquote>A mezzed fighter-pilot isn't going to last long <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />. Summon a protoferno inside a tank would be pretty funny too. Fact is, its more efficient and deadly/useful to use magic without loosing a $65 million piece of equipment, and the pilot with one cheery spell. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>pff why do so much trouble? just let it kill the mage.</p><p>just rezz and only repair 10% of your gear <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Arataki]

<cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>As to the poster talking about the lack of real progress over the last 1k years from EQOA til EQ2, um you are aware that until from about 1200BC until about 1200AC the Technology of Earth was basicly the same. thats 2.4k years and really from 1200AC until about 1700AC firearms did not advance much(they just stoped blowing up in your face and they introduced a way to fire them in the rain), Heck the first Repeating Firearms where only made like 150 years ago if that. </blockquote>But the one thing the people between 1200 BC and 1200 AD didn't have was magic, an energy that is, conservatively, 10,000x more useful than electricity. It's been 255 years since Franklin flew his kites and look how our world has changed since then. The only thing that slowed the widespread use of electricity was the fact that it took around 150 years to develop the infrastructure to support it, a problem Norrath doesn't have with magic. It's an abundant resource there and the inhabitants already know how to exploit it. An energy that can <u><i><b>ALTER REALITY </b></i></u> should easily be able to do anything that electricity can do. <b>It doesn't make any sense to me that a people with so much power literally at their fingertips would remain at such a primitive level for so long.</b></blockquote>This is kind of contradictive. They have massive power, what could they possibly want upgrade? You have mythical animals to ride on that don't ruin the air, griffons, magic in abundance. Earth upgraded because we lacked anything worthwhile by ourselves. Do you think we would have bothered with an atomic bomb if we had someone who could pop a Fusion?

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm not expecting fighter craft, tanks or space ships (Except for the Terran Survey starship that crash-landed...Oh wait that was just a fan fiction idea)What I would think to see are Gnomish Steam-Gear-ships land/water/air and even space. (I think the original Luclin mentioned one in the guide plus the ill fated Dreadnever Expedition)I would expect Steam-knight armor for GnomesCannons for ships (They have fireworks and a non-Chinese culture which would allow for innovation)Various melds of technology and magicIndoor plumbing (Fountains are in the game how long must we cross our legs and go to Stormhold to go to the restroom?!)Giant steam powered Cogs that a Gnome would tool around in.paddle wheel boats (The Far Seas Trading Company would likely be the ones to have those)Blimps/hot air balloons (Better for cargo then a griffin and you can with wind elementals keep it still)steam powered loading cranes in Qeynos Harbor.</span>

[Ishya]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm not expecting fighter craft, tanks or space ships (Except for the Terran Survey starship that crash-landed...Oh wait that was just a fan fiction idea)What I would think to see are Gnomish Steam-Gear-ships land/water/air and even space. (I think the original Luclin mentioned one in the guide plus the ill fated Dreadnever Expedition)I would expect Steam-knight armor for GnomesCannons for ships (They have fireworks and a non-Chinese culture which would allow for innovation)Various melds of technology and magicIndoor plumbing (Fountains are in the game how long must we cross our legs and go to Stormhold to go to the restroom?!)Giant steam powered Cogs that a Gnome would tool around in.paddle wheel boats (The Far Seas Trading Company would likely be the ones to have those)Blimps/hot air balloons (Better for cargo then a griffin and you can with wind elementals keep it still)steam powered loading cranes in Qeynos Harbor.</span></blockquote><p>why build these things even if they have the possibility and knowledge?</p><p>it would cost months-years to build those while a magic user could do the same in 1 minute?</p><p>why spent that much money to build those things if a magic user can do it for free?</p><p> in short why waste time and money?</p>

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Lynsi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm not expecting fighter craft, tanks or space ships (Except for the Terran Survey starship that crash-landed...Oh wait that was just a fan fiction idea)What I would think to see are Gnomish Steam-Gear-ships land/water/air and even space. (I think the original Luclin mentioned one in the guide plus the ill fated Dreadnever Expedition)I would expect Steam-knight armor for GnomesCannons for ships (They have fireworks and a non-Chinese culture which would allow for innovation)Various melds of technology and magicIndoor plumbing (Fountains are in the game how long must we cross our legs and go to Stormhold to go to the restroom?!)Giant steam powered Cogs that a Gnome would tool around in.paddle wheel boats (The Far Seas Trading Company would likely be the ones to have those)Blimps/hot air balloons (Better for cargo then a griffin and you can with wind elementals keep it still)steam powered loading cranes in Qeynos Harbor.</span></blockquote><p>why build these things even if they have the possibility and knowledge?</p><p>it would cost months-years to build those while a magic user could do the same in 1 minute?</p><p>why spent that much money to build those things if a magic user can do it for free?</p><p> in short why waste time and money?</p></blockquote>Why build them?  Easy.  The construction of these things translates into jobs.  Fantasy world or not, people need to eat.Magic, despite the plethora of player-character spell-slingers, is a relatively rare phenomenon (speaking in terms of who can use it versus who cannot).  Mages realize this.  Mages don't just suddenly appear, they have to practice, study, and perfect their craft.  And they WILL charge appropriately for their services.  Few are going to do it 'for free'.That loading crane in the harbor can be operated by someone with absolutely no magical talent.  It teaches him a skill.  It gives employment to yet another citizen, and that citizen pays taxes.  No job=no money=no tax revenue.  Tax revenue good, budget shortfall bad.Musket fire may not penetrate magic armor, but the masses armies of the cities likely do not wear such prized items.  Magic armor is the exception, not the rule, just as adventurers are the exception, not the rule.  Armies may wear quality armor, yes, but nothing that a musket can't punch through.  In massed conflict and impromptu guerrilla warfare, they would be quite effective.  Useless against Antonia /Lucan/Christanos/Amree/Gor'Sok and their elite guards, sure.  Against the common grunt?  <SPLAT>  They would be quick to adopt such a weapon and develop alternating ranks of fire were such things to become available.The ancient Egyptians had indoor plumbing.  The Norrathian cities themselves likely have at least a basic version of this.  Sure, your in-game room doesn't show you as having a commode, but its likely there nonetheless.  The housing in Star Wars Galaxies didn't have 'facilities', but you can be sure people weren't hanging their posteriors out the nearest open window in downtown Mos Eisley.Cannons for ships - certainly.  Offensive and defensive technology tend to leapfrog each other.  They have better ship armor now?  Build a better cannon.  Better cannon?  Build better armor.  Cannons can be operated by the Qeynosian navy, Seafuries, Nerius pirates, and the Far Seas Trading Company without constantly relying on mages who would certainly charge high fees...all the time.  It takes a month to train a man to be a proficient cannonneer, give or take - and even factoring in training, support, supplies, and salary, his cost will be quite a bit less than that of a mage.  For the cost of one mage, you could likely staff an entire vessel with gunpowder weapons and the gun crews to operate them.Blimps and zeppelins for commerce makes sense as well.  By all accounts, the Norrathians could build them <i>now</i>, and magical augmentation to keep them aloft (magic devices to keep the interior air hot, air elementals to move them) would put them leagues ahead of Earth capabilities at a similar point in technological time.  The only thing limiting this are things already in-game...namely drakota, dragons, and hostile air creatures.In the end, technology is always going to come up as more economically efficient, even in places like Norrath.Mind you, this does not mean I think these things should be introduced...this was merely an attempt to make a few observations.

[Gukkor2]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lynsi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm not expecting fighter craft, tanks or space ships (Except for the Terran Survey starship that crash-landed...Oh wait that was just a fan fiction idea)What I would think to see are Gnomish Steam-Gear-ships land/water/air and even space. (I think the original Luclin mentioned one in the guide plus the ill fated Dreadnever Expedition)I would expect Steam-knight armor for GnomesCannons for ships (They have fireworks and a non-Chinese culture which would allow for innovation)Various melds of technology and magicIndoor plumbing (Fountains are in the game how long must we cross our legs and go to Stormhold to go to the restroom?!)Giant steam powered Cogs that a Gnome would tool around in.paddle wheel boats (The Far Seas Trading Company would likely be the ones to have those)Blimps/hot air balloons (Better for cargo then a griffin and you can with wind elementals keep it still)steam powered loading cranes in Qeynos Harbor.</span></blockquote><p>why build these things even if they have the possibility and knowledge?</p><p>it would cost months-years to build those while a magic user could do the same in 1 minute?</p><p>why spent that much money to build those things if a magic user can do it for free?</p><p> in short why waste time and money?</p></blockquote>Why build them?  Easy.  The construction of these things translates into jobs.  Fantasy world or not, people need to eat.Magic, despite the plethora of player-character spell-slingers, is a relatively rare phenomenon (speaking in terms of who can use it versus who cannot).  Mages realize this.  Mages don't just suddenly appear, they have to practice, study, and perfect their craft.  And they WILL charge appropriately for their services.  Few are going to do it 'for free'.That loading crane in the harbor can be operated by someone with absolutely no magical talent.  It teaches him a skill.  It gives employment to yet another citizen, and that citizen pays taxes.  No job=no money=no tax revenue.  Tax revenue good, budget shortfall bad.Musket fire may not penetrate magic armor, but the masses armies of the cities likely do not wear such prized items.  Magic armor is the exception, not the rule, just as adventurers are the exception, not the rule.  Armies may wear quality armor, yes, but nothing that a musket can't punch through.  In massed conflict and impromptu guerrilla warfare, they would be quite effective.  Useless against Antonia /Lucan/Christanos/Amree/Gor'Sok and their elite guards, sure.  Against the common grunt?  <SPLAT>  They would be quick to adopt such a weapon and develop alternating ranks of fire were such things to become available.The ancient Egyptians had indoor plumbing.  The Norrathian cities themselves likely have at least a basic version of this.  Sure, your in-game room doesn't show you as having a commode, but its likely there nonetheless.  The housing in Star Wars Galaxies didn't have 'facilities', but you can be sure people weren't hanging their posteriors out the nearest open window in downtown Mos Eisley.Cannons for ships - certainly.  Offensive and defensive technology tend to leapfrog each other.  They have better ship armor now?  Build a better cannon.  Better cannon?  Build better armor.  Cannons can be operated by the Qeynosian navy, Seafuries, Nerius pirates, and the Far Seas Trading Company without constantly relying on mages who would certainly charge high fees...all the time.  It takes a month to train a man to be a proficient cannonneer, give or take - and even factoring in training, support, supplies, and salary, his cost will be quite a bit less than that of a mage.  For the cost of one mage, you could likely staff an entire vessel with gunpowder weapons and the gun crews to operate them.Blimps and zeppelins for commerce makes sense as well.  By all accounts, the Norrathians could build them <i>now</i>, and magical augmentation to keep them aloft (magic devices to keep the interior air hot, air elementals to move them) would put them leagues ahead of Earth capabilities at a similar point in technological time.  The only thing limiting this are things already in-game...namely drakota, dragons, and hostile air creatures.In the end, technology is always going to come up as more economically efficient, even in places like Norrath.Mind you, this does not mean I think these things should be introduced...this was merely an attempt to make a few observations.</blockquote>Valid points.  All that said, though, there must be some logical reason why Norrathians haven't developed industrial-level technology outside of gnomish developments.  Yes, of course the real reason is because it wouldn't make a good fantasy world if there were modern technology in the mix, but this is a lore board.  Answers like that aren't valid from a lore standpoint.

[Rainmare]

magical armor may be the exception. but magical power is the rule. there's just no reason to ever create a musket. for years spent building and creating one, you can train three or four mages. and ships? there's no need for a cannon. look at the mages in game. the drool for chances to find lost spells and tomes, and hidden knowledge. I bet all a captain has to do is say 'I'm going to X place' and he has several mages ready to go just for the chance at new magic.that's their fee. we get to point B, and all magical tomes and scrolls are mine. or, they can use their training as thier fee. your continued training in the arts, as provided by us, continues as long as you work for us.but you want to talk jobs...it takes a great deal of time to forge a sword. or a suit of armor. with modern technology, it can still take a week to make an acoustic guitar. now think how long it was then. what you don't see is the shipbuilders for the unseen Qeynosian/Freeportian fleets, all the armorsmiths and tailors that supply every need in the cities. from nails and horseshoes to bags and rugs. the people that monitor the sewers, the many guards and farmers that it takes to protect and feed a city like that.I don't need a blimp. I can teleport across the ocean. and that is either from a druid, or a wizard. a blimp or a plane would be a sitting duck in the air with the aforementioned creatures. hence they aren't built. there are already much safer means of transport readily available.they have people with the ability to alter the fabric of reality around them. you can emphasize enough how powerful that is. and I wager there are probably several thousand spells that exist that we as players don't see. spells that anyone can use that do simple things like clean rooms, make beds, light candles. storybooks with illusion spells on them that make popup images that progress as you read..who knows.Technology operates within reality. Magic <i>alters</i> reality. there's just no reason to develop most techs with magic available.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">It takes years to train a mage, and you will want to protect that investment, it takes weeks to train a cannon loader maybe months for ballistics master but you can get those from current operators of current siege engines.On high seas a Mage is more likely going to be called upon to ward the vessel while cannons punch through the other's defenses.  A fireball will do damage but that can be quickly taken care of by a competent damage control crew on any ship. It is harder to replace splintered timbers in the heat of battle. even the spells that throw rocks just would not have the same power as a launched projectile.Most mages have better things (and job opportunities) to do then use magic to lift a beam into position (With most true levitation spells lost in the shattering and rending)  it is simpler to use a lever and tackle,  or a tricked out version of which is a steam-driven hoist.As for creating a Musket it would be a simple leap from a firework or cannon. and on Norrath who says you won't have imbued muskets that turn regular bullets to projectiles that do additional damage or locks on to targets. As for why, Heck even a Mage would like to have an ace-in-the-hole once his current supply of mana is depleted.In battle yes you have mages but magic takes time to preform rituals  during the down time you can have artillery soften the targets.</span>

[Rainmare]

why would a mage throw a fireball. your thinking in projectile terms, not actual power. much easier to board up a hole in a ship than to replace the mast the mage just splintered apart with a lightning bolt. can't move a ship very well if the sails are on fire. can't do anything if 2/3 of your crew and the ship is engulfed in a Fusion.and who in thier right mind in any case, would be willing to risk training a cannoneer, and bringing highly combustable powder on a ship when there's a good chance the other ship has a lightning throwing, or fireball tossing, icecomet summoning mage on it?it would take many years to make a cannon that worked reliably. you have to remember that with this particular device, if you screw up making it, even on the smallest scale, it's likely to blowup on take everyone that was working on it with it. magic is safer.though lets not forget a magic word, which can be applied to a mage as easily as anyone else. Slave. though perhaps not in Qeynos, I can see Lucan's Freeport enslaving mages for this very purpose. a living cannon, so to speak, that will only get more powerful with time. what would be better. one ship armed to the teeth with cannons, or one ship, with say, two or three well trained wizards, under the dominion of a Coercer that is serving as Master-at-Arms, or maybe higher ranking officer.I could see mages volunteering to serve in the qeynos navy as a means to fund thier studies. after all, militarily speaking, the navy seems to be the least involved in battle. if you wanted to join the service, the navy would be the better one for long years of study with payment.

[Zabjade]

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>why would a mage throw a fireball. your thinking in projectile terms, not actual power. much easier to board up a hole in a ship than to replace the mast the mage just splintered apart with a lightning bolt. can't move a ship very well if the sails are on fire. can't do anything if 2/3 of your crew and the ship is engulfed in a Fusion.<span style="color: #00cc00;">Not in the heat of battle putting out a fire is simple as throwing seawater on it. Most ships keep spare sails. Lightening is a plasma based energy it might cause some splintering but not to the amount you are thinking of it is a heat based attack. 2/3 crew would be protected by the mage(Or the leading warding class) warding the ship.</span>and who in thier right mind in any case, would be willing to risk training a cannoneer, and bringing highly combustable powder on a ship when there's a good chance the other ship has a lightning throwing, or fireball tossing, icecomet summoning mage on it?<span style="color: #00cc00;">Precautions would be taken powder has been kept on ships for centuries even the scurviest of pirate crews know to be careful with the stuff most of that stuff is kept in lockers until needed. Also most ships keep their cannons on the Cannon deck which is reinforced or on the main deck. a mage would more likely be stationed on either the forward or aft decks or the masts since they need line of site. Cannoneer can be trained faster then a mage.</span>it would take many years to make a cannon that worked reliably. you have to remember that with this particular device, if you screw up making it, even on the smallest scale, it's likely to blowup on take everyone that was working on it with it. magic is safer.<span style="color: #00cc00;">Not really they have fireworks now it would not take long for cannons to come into their own. Nothing is 100% safe.</span>though lets not forget a magic word, which can be applied to a mage as easily as anyone else. Slave. though perhaps not in Qeynos, I can see Lucan's Freeport enslaving mages for this very purpose. a living cannon, so to speak, that will only get more powerful with time. what would be better. one ship armed to the teeth with cannons, or one ship, with say, two or three well trained wizards, under the dominion of a Coercer that is serving as Master-at-Arms, or maybe higher ranking officer.<span style="color: #00cc00;">I'd take the cannons, the moment something happens to the Coercer you suddenly have three very pizzed off mages on you own ship.</span>I could see mages volunteering to serve in the qeynos navy as a means to fund thier studies. after all, militarily speaking, the navy seems to be the least involved in battle. if you wanted to join the service, the navy would be the better one for long years of study with payment.<span style="color: #00cc00;">I never said that they would replace mages just that Mages are harder to replace.</span></blockquote>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>In all actuality, we have no idea how powerful in real life measurements those spells are. While lightening is plasma, with enough power it could splinter it.</p><p>Early artillery was more likely to blow up in their face than to be useful while on the other hand there is less danger involved using a mage. The early muskets were not more effective than a trained long bow man until much later, and the cannons were woefully inaccurate. </p><p>When magic exists, there won't be a real improvement until centuries of practice if they were starting from scratch. Hardly anyone would bother putting the resources into something only the elves would see to fruition. And the elves would be against such nature polluting items anyway.</p><p>Someone mentioned the pyramid of needs...with the shattering all the refugees would have to be taken care of first and since Luclin exploded roughly fifteen years ago the place hasn't had a lot of time to heal that.</p><p>Right now the only technologically advanced race are the gnomes whose mental dispositions add an extra factor to consider.</p><p>It's a matter of highly explosive and not safe to use gun versus the mage with Fusion, which would you pick?</p>

[Zabjade]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>In all actuality, we have no idea how powerful in real life measurements those spells are. While lightening is plasma, with enough power it could splinter it.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">True but only real lightening would be able to do that and one bolt of real lightning is a spot weld hotter then the sun, or so I've heard, the amount of power that a mage would need to do that rather then something a few degrees more lethal then a mil-spec tazer would probably burn out most mages. </span></p><p>Early artillery was more likely to blow up in their face than to be useful while on the other hand there is less danger involved using a mage. The early muskets were not more effective than a trained long bow man until much later, and the cannons were woefully inaccurate.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">True, but Norrath has the art of Imbuing and Adorning to help that along along with the whole tinkering profession.</span> </p><p>When magic exists, there won't be a real improvement until centuries of practice if they were starting from scratch. Hardly anyone would bother putting the resources into something only the elves would see to fruition. And the elves would be against such nature polluting items anyway.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">That's just it they are not starting from scratch fireworks are already around, Salt Pi'ter [sp the Goblin spelling) is easy enough to gather, and blasting power is already in existence you can buy some outside of Permafrost. Gnomes/Humans/Dwarves/Goblins/ and even the curious Erudite and Tier'Dal would be interested in working the process faster. Gnomes and Goblins since they are tinkers and you can't have good tinkering without something exploding, Humans like to be cutting edge and would see the practical applications and add the safety protocols needed,  Dwarves and Tier'Dal  for both mining and for the Tier'Dal explosions and mortar round can be useful for denial ability. Erudites because they would like to know how it would work and possibly work spells that take advantage of the flying object.</span></p><p>Someone mentioned the pyramid of needs...with the shattering all the refugees would have to be taken care of first and since Luclin exploded roughly fifteen years ago the place hasn't had a lot of time to heal that.</p><p>Right now the only technologically advanced race are the gnomes whose mental dispositions add an extra factor to consider.</p><p>It's a matter of highly explosive and not safe to use gun versus the mage with Fusion, which would you pick?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Goblins are also into Tinkering as well as any race now and many such as humans are likely to add the coverings for gearboxes and safety protocols that the Gnomes might overlook unless they are a member of the regulation bureau.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">As for picking, it depends on the cannoneer or the mage is.</span></p></blockquote>

[DrkVsr]

<p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">The simple fact is: you are still bringing RL ideas and concepts into a world that has no concepts of what you are talking about</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">And if we are going down that path, who's to say there is not a secret 'Illuminati' making sure that what you speak of does not come about</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Things like canons and airships and what-not were created in the real world because there was nothing else like it (and just look how long it was before man got off the ground, about 200-250 years ago)</span></p>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>In all actuality, we have no idea how powerful in real life measurements those spells are. While lightening is plasma, with enough power it could splinter it.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">True but only real lightening would be able to do that and one bolt of real lightning is a spot weld hotter then the sun, or so I've heard, the amount of power that a mage would need to do that rather then something a few degrees more lethal then a mil-spec tazer would probably burn out most mages. </span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">It's magic, whether or not the heat is directly applied to the mage is something we don't know.</span></p><p>Early artillery was more likely to blow up in their face than to be useful while on the other hand there is less danger involved using a mage. The early muskets were not more effective than a trained long bow man until much later, and the cannons were woefully inaccurate.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">True, but Norrath has the art of Imbuing and Adorning to help that along along with the whole tinkering profession.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Adorning and Imbuing adds effects to items...whether or not it makes it more effective in how it works we don't know.</span></p><p>When magic exists, there won't be a real improvement until centuries of practice if they were starting from scratch. Hardly anyone would bother putting the resources into something only the elves would see to fruition. And the elves would be against such nature polluting items anyway.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">That's just it they are not starting from scratch fireworks are already around, Salt Pi'ter [sp the Goblin spelling) is easy enough to gather, and blasting power is already in existence you can buy some outside of Permafrost. Gnomes/Humans/Dwarves/Goblins/ and even the curious Erudite and Tier'Dal would be interested in working the process faster. Gnomes and Goblins since they are tinkers and you can't have good tinkering without something exploding, Humans like to be cutting edge and would see the practical applications and add the safety protocols needed,  Dwarves and Tier'Dal  for both mining and for the Tier'Dal explosions and mortar round can be useful for denial ability. Erudites because they would like to know how it would work and possibly work spells that take advantage of the flying object.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Erudites have come around by devoting themselves to the study of the arcane, not technology. The human cities of Qeynos and Freeport are flooded with refugees and even then messing with something previously gnome only territory would probably be pushing it. The Tier'Dal are devious and malicious, messing with something that can blow up an entire quarter, or even be so loud that it was useless for assassins doesn't seem like it would go far. The goblins, despite possibly having the intelligence have a history of being slaves to another race (ogres and the evil eyes) or live in already taxing locations on basic survival (lavastorm for example). Not to mention being hunted.</span></p><p>Someone mentioned the pyramid of needs...with the shattering all the refugees would have to be taken care of first and since Luclin exploded roughly fifteen years ago the place hasn't had a lot of time to heal that.</p><p>Right now the only technologically advanced race are the gnomes whose mental dispositions add an extra factor to consider.</p><p>It's a matter of highly explosive and not safe to use gun versus the mage with Fusion, which would you pick?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Goblins are also into Tinkering as well as any race now and many such as humans are likely to add the coverings for gearboxes and safety protocols that the Gnomes might overlook unless they are a member of the regulation bureau.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">As for picking, it depends on the cannoneer or the mage is.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">We don't know exactly how magic works, if the effects were applied to the mage I could imagine it being abandoned in favor of something else..but we don't. You seem to go the way of putting rather severe limitations on <i>magic</i>. We don't know the limits of it, but we do know the limits of early technology.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I see, and studying the arcane precludes Erudites from studying the current magi-technology in the game? Actually SoE put a lot of limitations on Mages, by removing Eye of Zom and levitation among others spells such as conjured no-rent armor and Enchanter illusions that actually helped you in enemy cities and gave you benefits. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> The fact is even the top mages of Norrath don't know either, but I bet they refuse to be a panacea for all of the lug jobs of the world they often have their own pursuits <i>(Study/Dungeon Crawls/finding old lost magic)</i> . On the other hand Tinkerers crave to innovate the world just to make a name for themselves.Magic and technology tend to end up meshing on Norrath unlike Terra, Not necessarily at odds with each other.Drk>>Ohh the Horror of RL concepts. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />On Norrath there are TOO MANY secret societies at odds with each other, to keep that from happening. Even the Freethinkers have limits on what they can accomplish.Everyone is fixated on the cannons? Which is odd because that is among the technologies is the <b>most likely to come about</b> considering what is already in-game.  Flight is already in the game, sure they use animals for the task most of the time but Gnomes already have air-ships and rockets.</span>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I see, and studying the arcane precludes Erudites from studying the current magi-technology in the game? Actually SoE put a lot of limitations on Mages, by removing Eye of Zom and levitation among others spells such as conjured no-rent armor and Enchanter illusions that actually helped you in enemy cities and gave you benefits. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">Of course it doesn't necessarily stop them, but for humans to have evolved into Erudites by studying magic it would seem odd that they would go the technological route as well. I have no idea what the Eye of Zom is but I know levitation was probably removed due to their being no z-axis in the game =P And while certain spells might be missing, your limitations were more about the nature of magic rather than what is possible. Completely different.</span>The fact is even the top mages of Norrath don't know either, but I bet they refuse to be a panacea for all of the lug jobs of the world they often have their own pursuits <i>(Study/Dungeon Crawls/finding old lost magic)</i> . On the other hand Tinkerers crave to innovate the world just to make a name for themselves.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><span style="color: #cc3300;">Being able to innovate the world or even the desire to doesn't rule out the risk versus reward factor. Earth had nothing else to fall back on while Tinkerers need to put a lot of time and effort into something that they have no idea whether or not it will even be worth the effort.</span>Magic and technology tend to end up meshing on Norrath unlike Terra, Not necessarily at odds with each other.Drk>>Ohh the Horror of RL concepts. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />On Norrath there are TOO MANY secret societies at odds with each other, to keep that from happening. Even the Freethinkers have limits on what they can accomplish.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><span style="color: #cc3300;">I don't understand this comment....what do you mean about the Freethinkers and what point is being made here? If its the fact that many people are enemies with everyone else then...war makes it so that the urgency for better weapons is there. With magic there is no urgency for better things, like I said Earth had nothing else....and I still don't get the Freethinker comment.</span>Everyone is fixated on the cannons? Which is odd because that is among the technologies is the <b>most likely to come about</b> considering what is already in-game.  Flight is already in the game, sure they use animals for the task most of the time but Gnomes already have air-ships and rockets.</span></p><span style="color: #cc3300;">The transition from fireworks to cannons is not so clear cut. They have fireworks that look pretty but the motivation between making a festivity item a weapon may not be present. You have to have the drive the make things and you haven't exactly proved how that drive exists with magic being plentiful. It's a big difference between the ability to do something and the will to do it.</span></blockquote>

[ke'la]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I see, and studying the arcane precludes Erudites from studying the current magi-technology in the game? Actually SoE put a lot of limitations on Mages, by removing Eye of Zom and levitation among others spells such as conjured no-rent armor and Enchanter illusions that actually helped you in enemy cities and gave you benefits. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">Of course it doesn't necessarily stop them, but for humans to have evolved into Erudites by studying magic it would seem odd that they would go the technological route as well. I have no idea what the Eye of Zom is but I know levitation was probably removed due to their being no z-axis in the game =P And while certain spells might be missing, your limitations were more about the nature of magic rather than what is possible. Completely different.</span>The fact is even the top mages of Norrath don't know either, but I bet they refuse to be a panacea for all of the lug jobs of the world they often have their own pursuits <i>(Study/Dungeon Crawls/finding old lost magic)</i> . On the other hand Tinkerers crave to innovate the world just to make a name for themselves.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><span style="color: #cc3300;">Being able to innovate the world or even the desire to doesn't rule out the risk versus reward factor. Earth had nothing else to fall back on while Tinkerers need to put a lot of time and effort into something that they have no idea whether or not it will even be worth the effort.</span>Magic and technology tend to end up meshing on Norrath unlike Terra, Not necessarily at odds with each other.Drk>>Ohh the Horror of RL concepts. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">On Norrath there are TOO MANY secret societies at odds with each other, to keep that from happening. Even the Freethinkers have limits on what they can accomplish.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><span style="color: #cc3300;">I don't understand this comment....what do you mean about the Freethinkers and what point is being made here? If its the fact that many people are enemies with everyone else then...war makes it so that the urgency for better weapons is there. With magic there is no urgency for better things, like I said Earth had nothing else....and I still don't get the Freethinker comment.</span>Everyone is fixated on the cannons? Which is odd because that is among the technologies is the <b>most likely to come about</b> considering what is already in-game.  Flight is already in the game, sure they use animals for the task most of the time but Gnomes already have air-ships and rockets.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">The transition from fireworks to cannons is not so clear cut. They have fireworks that look pretty but the motivation between making a festivity item a weapon may not be present. You have to have the drive the make things and you haven't exactly proved how that drive exists with magic being plentiful. It's a big difference between the ability to do something and the will to do it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cccc00;">Not only is it NOT clear cut, you can look to RL history and see that it just did not make the transition until the Europians  got thier hands on it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cccc00;">The truth of the matter is it take A HUGE amount of little technologies to make a specific technology, for exsample No Gas Powered internal combustion engine no Airplane, Take away automation and no reliable Internal Combustion engine. The technology we have today is very much dependant on mistakes, and evolutianry steps and as it is evolutionary you remove one step for any reason(such as magic does it better) and it all falls apart.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cccc00;">BTW as to Lightinging not doing much damage to a Mast(wich is what even the cannoniers attack), um tell it to this tree. </span></p><p><img src="http://www.stonebridgetours.com.au/MyImages/2007%20Lightning%20strike%20SBT.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="320" height="427" /></p><p>Oh and how they protected the Gunpower? Um they put it in COPPER LINED rooms. Copper + Electricity(lighting) + Gunpowder = BOOM. The reason they where copper lined was because it was cheaper then gold or silver the only other 2 metals that don't spark when struck(of course both of those are also extreemly cunductive)</p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I'll concede the mast. The Chinese did not shift from Fireworks to Cannons because they had a society that was so caste bound at the time even if you had the idea you could not do anything about it. This is not the case with Norrath.Risk vs reward is the way of life, and you never know until you try. Whether a mage or a Tinkerer.As for the Freethinkers and other Secret Societies comment those where to someone else, who was saying that there might be a said society keeping Magi-technology back.</span>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'll concede the mast. The Chinese did not shift from Fireworks to Cannons because they had a society that was so caste bound at the time even if you had the idea you could not do anything about it. This is not the case with Norrath.Risk vs reward is the way of life, and you never know until you try. Whether a mage or a Tinkerer.As for the Freethinkers and other Secret Societies comment those where to someone else, who was saying that there might be a said society keeping Magi-technology back.</span></blockquote><p>I'm not sure if you really know about Chinese history...they made the first flame throwers, invented a new forging method, gunpowder we all know they are accredited for, even crude ballistic missiles (using fireworks to shoot a rocket and then little arrows with rockets come firing out of the aforementioned rocket in order to set fire to a ship). Caste had nothing to do with it...the inventors are usually the rich since they had the time to think and the resources to do something about the ideas. The poor hardly bother.</p><p>And you still haven't said why they would bother with that particular risk. They probably had enough risk learning magic, just saying "risk vs reward is the way of life" means zilch if magic can do it better and quicker. Telling someone to risk getting their arms blown off because its the way of life doesn't go very far, <b>prove the motive.</b></p><p>As for the Freethinkers...I have no idea what they would gain from keeping technology back, haven't gotten that far in the lore yet but I doubt we'll know their entire influence but unless there is an in game quote that proves that the don't like tech it holds little to no water. I'll conced the Freethinker point if there is.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'll concede the mast. The Chinese did not shift from Fireworks to Cannons because they had a society that was so caste bound at the time even if you had the idea you could not do anything about it. This is not the case with Norrath.Risk vs reward is the way of life, and you never know until you try. Whether a mage or a Tinkerer.As for the Freethinkers and other Secret Societies comment those where to someone else, who was saying that there might be a said society keeping Magi-technology back.</span></blockquote><p>Your right Risk vs Reward is part of life and this is why we are trying to get through to you. In order for technagy to advance the Risk taken must be less then the preceived reward OR some kind of fortutous mistake or acedent must happen while rescearching something else.</p><p>Well consitering the Rewards of Researching early Tech is VERY low(compaired with what can already be done with magic) and the Risks of using said Tech is VERY high advances in Technoagy will be very slow if at all, when compaired to the advance of RL Tech(wich if you accually track it is not as fast as you seem to think).</p><p>As for why the Chinese did not have Cannons it had nothing to do with the Caste system, because with the possable exception of Britton there was very much a caste system in Europe as well (ever hear of Futalism?). The reason The Chinese never made Cannons is because they lacked a key technoagy that allowed the cannon to be invented, Advanced Metalergy and the ablity to make Caste Hard Metal objects, this is just one exsample of how just having 1 missing componant cripples technolgical advancement. It's also why the World Community is able to keep things like the A-Bomb(for the most part) out of the hands of people that don't already have it. They keep them from the 1 or 2 key technoagies that are required to make the A-bomb possable. Heck even sinthitic fibars are a mistake.</p>

[Zabjade]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'll concede the mast. The Chinese did not shift from Fireworks to Cannons because they had a society that was so caste bound at the time even if you had the idea you could not do anything about it. This is not the case with Norrath.Risk vs reward is the way of life, and you never know until you try. Whether a mage or a Tinkerer.As for the Freethinkers and other Secret Societies comment those where to someone else, who was saying that there might be a said society keeping Magi-technology back.</span></blockquote><p>I'm not sure if you really know about Chinese history...they made the first flame throwers, invented a new forging method, gunpowder we all know they are accredited for, even crude ballistic missiles (using fireworks to shoot a rocket and then little arrows with rockets come firing out of the aforementioned rocket in order to set fire to a ship). Caste had nothing to do with it...the inventors are usually the rich since they had the time to think and the resources to do something about the ideas. The poor hardly bother.</p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Cast referring to profession I mis-worded, If someone from another field had an idea they could not communicate said idea because of how each field of endeavor guarded their secrets. This happened less obvious in the west.</span><p>And you still haven't said why they would bother with that particular risk. They probably had enough risk learning magic, just saying "risk vs reward is the way of life" means zilch if magic can do it better and quicker. Telling someone to risk getting their arms blown off because its the way of life doesn't go very far, <b>prove the motive.</b></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">That is if they could learn magic beyond a few combat arts, BTW I do not see many if any utility spells such as levitation of heavy objects in the game, so no magic can not do it faster or quicker. As for why there are likely fewer mages in the world then gaming populations  lead you to believe, you can't always have one on a boat even if you don't have cannons you don't see any magical defenses such as a warding orb, or giant wands attached to ships. I would  not be surprised to see both and a rudimentary cannon on the ship in case they hit a low arcanum zone. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">It's called having back up plans</span><b></b></p><p>As for the Freethinkers...I have no idea what they would gain from keeping technology back, haven't gotten that far in the lore yet but I doubt we'll know their entire influence but unless there is an in game quote that proves that the don't like tech it holds little to no water. I'll conced the Freethinker point if there is.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">That was someone else's paranoia I was discounting it, without proof and by the fact that there are way too many groups for one to get a real foothold.</span></p></blockquote>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'll concede the mast. The Chinese did not shift from Fireworks to Cannons because they had a society that was so caste bound at the time even if you had the idea you could not do anything about it. This is not the case with Norrath.Risk vs reward is the way of life, and you never know until you try. Whether a mage or a Tinkerer.As for the Freethinkers and other Secret Societies comment those where to someone else, who was saying that there might be a said society keeping Magi-technology back.</span></blockquote><p>I'm not sure if you really know about Chinese history...they made the first flame throwers, invented a new forging method, gunpowder we all know they are accredited for, even crude ballistic missiles (using fireworks to shoot a rocket and then little arrows with rockets come firing out of the aforementioned rocket in order to set fire to a ship). Caste had nothing to do with it...the inventors are usually the rich since they had the time to think and the resources to do something about the ideas. The poor hardly bother.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Cast referring to profession I mis-worded, If someone from another field had an idea they could not communicate said idea because of how each field of endeavor guarded their secrets. This happened less obvious in the west.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">I'm assuming it means like someone comes up with an idea to revolutionize forging but couldn't because once he mentioned forging no blacksmith would give him the time of day. Never read anything like that but will concede that it might be possible. In general people invent far less than we would like to think in the early days. Unlike now the process of inventing back then was dangerous, taxing and not very lucrative. </span></p><p>And you still haven't said why they would bother with that particular risk. They probably had enough risk learning magic, just saying "risk vs reward is the way of life" means zilch if magic can do it better and quicker. Telling someone to risk getting their arms blown off because its the way of life doesn't go very far, <b>prove the motive.</b></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">That is if they could learn magic beyond a few combat arts, BTW I do not see many if any utility spells such as levitation of heavy objects in the game, so no magic can not do it faster or quicker. As for why there are likely fewer mages in the world then gaming populations  lead you to believe, you can't always have one on a boat even if you don't have cannons you don't see any magical defenses such as a warding orb, or giant wands attached to ships. I would  not be surprised to see both and a rudimentary cannon on the ship in case they hit a low arcanum zone. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">It's called having back up plans</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">If they have levers...and barbarians around or even the soldier that is able to face off against dragons it would make such things trivial...and just because players can't levitate...I remember elevators in the Mage Academy in Freeport and the teleporting thingy in Qeynos that would work just as well. Just as in game populations may screw our view of how many mages there are, the little things that we take for granted can be easily expanded. Levitation obviously exists and could be used and in the examples I mentioned they are probably less maintainence than machinery. </span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">If it was possible that you would be traveling in a place where people would want to shoot you, wouldn't you invest in a bullet proof vest? Mages <b>are</b> the back up plan when swords and arrows don't work. Leaving the mage behind (and the huge schools of the arcane and divine teachings leads me to believe that while magic users are probably not populous they definitely aren't scarse) would be flying in the face of common Noratthian sense. </span></p><p>As for the Freethinkers...I have no idea what they would gain from keeping technology back, haven't gotten that far in the lore yet but I doubt we'll know their entire influence but unless there is an in game quote that proves that the don't like tech it holds little to no water. I'll conced the Freethinker point if there is.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">That was someone else's paranoia I was discounting it, without proof and by the fact that there are way too many groups for one to get a real foothold.</span></p><span style="color: #cc3300;">Duly noted.</span></blockquote></blockquote>

[Zabjade]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">[snip]</span><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">If they have levers...and barbarians around or even the soldier that is able to face off against dragons it would make such things trivial...</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #00cc00;">Please clarify this comment? what do levers have to do with dragon slaying?</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">and just because players can't levitate...I remember elevators in the Mage Academy in Freeport and the teleporting thingy in Qeynos that would work just as well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes levitation platforms are in the game, but they are very rare, most notably in places of arcane knowledge, or Kelethin where necessity had to be the mother of invention.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;"> Just as in game populations may screw our view of how many mages there are, the little things that we take for granted can be easily expanded. Levitation obviously exists and could be used and in the examples I mentioned they are probably less maintainence than machinery.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #00cc00;"> Magical maintenance might end up being more cumbersome without a matrix for the energy to work with, energy is energy whether created by magic or science. with levers cogs and pullies driven by steam you can park it and let it be, magic I think needs more hands on, you just don't see the one maintaining the elevators and portals in the game.</span> </span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">If it was possible that you would be traveling in a place where people would want to shoot you, wouldn't you invest in a bullet proof vest? Mages <b>are</b> the back up plan when swords and arrows don't work. Leaving the mage behind (and the huge schools of the arcane and divine teachings leads me to believe that while magic users are probably not populous they definitely aren't scarse) would be flying in the face of common Noratthian sense. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm not saying that they are not a back up plan but you can't always have the luxury of a mage, and even a mage would appreciate something as back-back-up should he go OOM.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"> [snip]</span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">[snip]</span> <p><span style="color: #cc3300;">If they have levers...and barbarians around or even the soldier that is able to face off against dragons it would make such things trivial...</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #00cc00;">Please clarify this comment? what do levers have to do with dragon slaying?</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Off shoot of a comment I decided to delete. In essence I was going down the train of thought that stated that it is very possible that mages and priests are not the only ones to have magic at their disposal, abeit probably the only ones barring crusaders that could make spells out of it. On earth our physical attributes aren't entirely impressive leading to a need to make certain things easier for us to accomplish. </span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">and just because players can't levitate...I remember elevators in the Mage Academy in Freeport and the teleporting thingy in Qeynos that would work just as well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes levitation platforms are in the game, but they are very rare, most notably in places of arcane knowledge, or Kelethin where necessity had to be the mother of invention.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">True.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">Just as in game populations may screw our view of how many mages there are, the little things that we take for granted can be easily expanded. Levitation obviously exists and could be used and in the examples I mentioned they are probably less maintainence than machinery.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #00cc00;">Magical maintenance might end up being more cumbersome without a matrix for the energy to work with, energy is energy whether created by magic or science. with levers cogs and pullies driven by steam you can park it and let it be, magic I think needs more hands on, you just don't see the one maintaining the elevators and portals in the game.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Things made of machinery breaks and people get ticked when it does. There is no evidence that magical energy isn't stable. In fact we have evidence of the opposite, lore has numerous tales of magical constructs being held together after their creator's death or wards and spells protecting things for years, etc. Steam eats fuel and pumps out pollution which is another factor. Existing with elves and elemental magic would probably make people more sensitive to environmental issues.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">And you can't say machines, especially early machines would be just fine "parked." Problems galore riddled early tech, which is why most of our inventions was made by accident.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300;">If it was possible that you would be traveling in a place where people would want to shoot you, wouldn't you invest in a bullet proof vest? Mages <b>are</b> the back up plan when swords and arrows don't work. Leaving the mage behind (and the huge schools of the arcane and divine teachings leads me to believe that while magic users are probably not populous they definitely aren't scarse) would be flying in the face of common Noratthian sense. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm not saying that they are not a back up plan but you can't always have the luxury of a mage, and even a mage would appreciate something as back-back-up should he go OOM.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">Something that was inaccurate, dangerous, limited range, limited mobility, and limited usefullness (I'm sure battle on the sea wasn't just flinging spells...on earth cannons were not used exclusively but more as a preemptive strike so they wouldn't lose much if it missed. They boarded ships as soon as possible because cannons were not the end all of sea war.) as back back up? If they truly needed back back up, they either have long bow men (the ship for the Kunark questy had a ranger NPC on it) or another mage as it was more trust worthy than something a gnome threw aboard. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">The world of Norrath isn't broken in terms of getting things done. With magic they made the floating citadel in Freeport, what technology can do that? Everlasting flames such as seen in Neriak, teleportation, griffons etc make the need to harness electricity moot. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">There simply is no motive for it, in utility or otherwise. It might make their lives a bit easier but until it is rather obvious that magic cannot replace X function it would make no sense for someone to invent it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">[snip]</span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>**edited thanks to my colour blunder**

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">It was hard to get the gist of what you are saying as black type does not show up well. But I never said that Technology would go the same route as on Terra, after all we have Clockworks, blasting powder, fireworks, Brock's Thermal Shocker, air ships etc all of which are a melding of Technology and Magic.In the end Magic, technology and Mecho-magical (Magi-tech?) all have the possibility of breaking down,  fizzling, going berserk or even miscasting. Maintenance would be needed for all, and all came with inherent operator/caster error.</span>

[WeatherMan]

<cite>DrkVsr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;color: #993300;">The simple fact is: you are still bringing RL ideas and concepts into a world that has no concepts of what you are talking about</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: #993300;">And if we are going down that path, who's to say there is not a secret 'Illuminati' making sure that what you speak of does not come about</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: #993300;">Things like canons and airships and what-not were created in the real world because there was nothing else like it (and just look how long it was before man got off the ground, about 200-250 years ago)</span></p></blockquote>Of course Real Life ideas and concepts are being brought into Norrath - the developers have been constantly tooting the 'realism' horn, even though there's been bloody little actual 'realism' to it.  And I have to disagree with your contention that Norrathians 'have no concept' - were that the case, then even the basics of tinkering would not exist.As to the 'Illuminati'...that is not an implausible theory.  In fact, for many of the technological advances that SHOULD have occurred despite the presence of magic, that suppositional Illuminati analog would pretty much HAVE to exist.And cannons and (especially) airships would likely be developed at an even faster rate in a place like Norrath.  How?  Simple.  Take that airship, for example.  Gnomes have sent flying gizmos into the sky for a long time...I do not see it as an implausibility that somehow, somewhere, some gnome managed to figure out the basics of aerodynamics, and how it might be applied in a rather mundane fashion to other applications.  Hot air balloons, dirigibles, and even 'powered' airships would all come about this way.  In truth, to start the whole thing, all it took was one apple knocking a scholar on the head...and that came AFTER they figured out that the Earth wasn't shaped like a Junior Mint.

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">It was hard to get the gist of what you are saying as black type does not show up well. But I never said that Technology would go the same route as on Terra, after all we have Clockworks, blasting powder, fireworks, Brock's Thermal Shocker, air ships etc all of which are a melding of Technology and Magic.In the end Magic, technology and Mecho-magical (Magi-tech?) all have the possibility of breaking down,  fizzling, going berserk or even miscasting. Maintenance would be needed for all, and all came with inherent operator/caster error.</span></blockquote>Yup, everything has the possibility. There is even a quest which has you repair spectral sentries in the Commonlands because they broke down after several years. It seemed as though you were implying that magic was inherently more maintainence than technology, which wouldn't be true.

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DrkVsr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">The simple fact is: you are still bringing RL ideas and concepts into a world that has no concepts of what you are talking about</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">And if we are going down that path, who's to say there is not a secret 'Illuminati' making sure that what you speak of does not come about</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Things like canons and airships and what-not were created in the real world because there was nothing else like it (and just look how long it was before man got off the ground, about 200-250 years ago)</span></p></blockquote>Of course Real Life ideas and concepts are being brought into Norrath - the developers have been constantly tooting the 'realism' horn, even though there's been bloody little actual 'realism' to it.  And I have to disagree with your contention that Norrathians 'have no concept' - were that the case, then even the basics of tinkering would not exist.As to the 'Illuminati'...that is not an implausible theory.  In fact, for many of the technological advances that SHOULD have occurred despite the presence of magic, that suppositional Illuminati analog would pretty much HAVE to exist.And cannons and (especially) airships would likely be developed at an even faster rate in a place like Norrath.  How?  Simple.  Take that airship, for example.  Gnomes have sent flying gizmos into the sky for a long time...I do not see it as an implausibility that somehow, somewhere, some gnome managed to figure out the basics of aerodynamics, and how it might be applied in a rather mundane fashion to other applications.  Hot air balloons, dirigibles, and even 'powered' airships would all come about this way.  In truth, to start the whole thing, all it took was one apple knocking a scholar on the head...and that came AFTER they figured out that the Earth wasn't shaped like a Junior Mint.</blockquote><p>It's quite well known that gnomish tinkering does not always end well...their first major success, the Clockworks, kicked them out of their home. It's more likely that the gnome(s) responsible for the airship died when it crashed, blew up, etc. Racial characteristics play a role as well. The gnomes are quite prideful of their inventions, and even if the airship worked it would be unlikely that any self respecting inventor gnome would copy it or innovate it.</p><p>Our inventions have happened mostly through trial and error. Throw in gnomish eccentricities and you have a disaster. Most major inventions did not happen like the inventor wanted them to. What you are asking of Norrath is to develope polluting(important for the elvish races that have a prominent presence) ancient (early tech was not so great and more detrimental!) technology despite magic existing.</p><p>You could perhaps make a case for magi- technology but apart from the gnomes there is no motive to start creating. People have ideas all the time, but whether or not it is made into something is different.</p>

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It's quite well known that gnomish tinkering does not always end well...their first major success, the Clockworks, kicked them out of their home. It's more likely that the gnome(s) responsible for the airship died when it crashed, blew up, etc. Racial characteristics play a role as well. The gnomes are quite prideful of their inventions, and even if the airship worked it would be unlikely that any self respecting inventor gnome would copy it or innovate it.<p>Our inventions have happened mostly through trial and error. Throw in gnomish eccentricities and you have a disaster. Most major inventions did not happen like the inventor wanted them to. What you are asking of Norrath is to develope polluting(important for the elvish races that have a prominent presence) ancient (early tech was not so great and more detrimental!) technology despite magic existing.</p><p>You could perhaps make a case for magi- technology but apart from the gnomes there is no motive to start creating. People have ideas all the time, but whether or not it is made into something is different.</p></blockquote>It is true that gnomish mechanical inclination is hardly the most reliable, no argument there.  However, the point is more along the lines of, for lack of a better way to put it, 'good ol' human ingenuity', although the race in question need not be human.  It is entirely within the realm of possibility to have a barbarian 'greasemonkey', who managed to get herself apprenticed to an eccentric 'mad tinker' gnome, and in the process figured out what NOT to do, enough to open her own 'tinker shop' (for lack of a better term coming to mind) in Graystone Yard...or that eccentric ratonga wizard who has 'absorbed' through observation (and the occasional theft of reading material) the mechanical skills of his neighbors in Temple Street...enough that he has managed to reverse-engineer several gnomish designs that SHOULD have worked, and in so doing, has discovered WHY they didn't work exactly as intended.Point being, it need not be a gnome who copies or innovates...if one limits the entire realm of possibility to JUST gnomes, the other races are, in a way, being given short shrift in that regard.  No race is an island, so to speak - to think of them as a homogeneous lot is simply a bad idea.  Anyone can learn Tinkering, for example (save those who chose Transmuting, of course) - why could they not expand on that?  A lot of that would go, mechanics-wise, into that very Tinkering skill should it ever expand to encompass 'bigger gadgets', while the remainder can be filled in through background, biography, roleplay, and lore.  This gives the avenue of explanation for 'trial and error' without the need to worry about the catastrophic consequences of gnomish eccentricity.As for the elvish races...yes, I'll agree they would have issues with a lot of the concepts of early technology (as a larger group...although I contend there would be exceptions even among <i>them</i>).  It is, however, quite easy to see, say, that aforementioned ratonga wizard giving a protesting Koada'Dal a sly smile and saying to her "Of course, of course...and <i>your</i> ways will, of course, preserves Qeynos and Freeports as effectively as Felwithes has been, yes?"  In short. 'your ways didn't work, the proof is there, so shut up and take your pointy-eared behind somewhere else'.I remember a supplement for a TSR Inc. p&p RPG...although I don't remember the name of the game right off the top, the supplement was named <i>MagiTech</i> - with magical devices performing the function of things we use technology for, such as telephones, microwaves, radios, flashlights, televisions, and so on...pretty much anything you can imagine in modern-day mundania had a magical analog.  Norrath is not at this point, nor is it advancing technologically...it seems caught in developmental limbo due to the fact that non-gnomes are (seemingly) complete dullards when it comes to innovation and inspirational ideas, and suffer from an appalling lack of both curiousity and ingenuity.  The case can be made for a mage (or even a divine spellcaster) not worrying overly much about such things, but I can easily see that Qeynosian 'tinker' using her longbow to pepper a band of Tallon orcs from a distance, and then when they close to a distance where the bow is useless, she drops it and cross-draws a pair of wheellocks (maybe even more than one pair), fires them, drops/holsters them, and at last draws her claymore (which would be quite consistent with 'real-world' use of early-stage firearms, which were used as 'softening-up' weapons, rather than a main-line weapon like we see in the 1700's and later eras when rifled barrels made guns a practical choice).All that being said, I do not think I would much like to see a gunshop suddenly crop up in West Freeport, or In-Range (Elddar Grove) suddenly start offering muskets to their clientele - guns are not 'Norrathian' enough in flavor.  While I would accept cannons aboard a ship or atop a battlement, going further than that would be just a bit much.

[Blumfield]

Not that this is relevant at all, since we're dealing with a fantasy universe, but it should probably be borne in mind that even on earth, technology did not always progress in a linear fashion.  After the fall of the Byzantine and Roman Empires, technology took a huge step back for over a thousand years.  It wasn't until the renaissance that earth "caught up" with itself and started matching the technological feats of empires long since fallen.

[Paladin776]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for the elvish races...yes, I'll agree they would have issues with a lot of the concepts of early technology (as a larger group...although I contend there would be exceptions even among <i>them</i>).  It is, however, quite easy to see, say, that aforementioned ratonga wizard giving a protesting Koada'Dal a sly smile and saying to her "Of course, of course...and <i>your</i> ways will, of course, preserves Qeynos and Freeports as effectively as Felwithes has been, yes?"  In short. 'your ways didn't work, the proof is there, so shut up and take your pointy-eared behind somewhere else'.</blockquote>Sorry, but don't lay the destruction of Felwithe on the Koada'Dal.  That wasn't entirely their fault. Gnomes were more responsible for that than the High Elves were.

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>Oh good we got out of the spinning around and around bit and are not getting into the meaty stuff!</b> I will have to re-read these tomorrow when I have more time, computer problems have kept me off the past 2 days. Should be 100% by tomorrow or at least 99%.BTW apparently Goblins are also known as a Tinkering race this explains the Gigglegibbers a lot! I just wonder what would happen if they found out what made the Erudites look like XT's and humans met at a Xanthian Love Spring.</span>

[Drager]

 the advancement of technology comes from nesity. in norrath they have magic which hinders the advancement of technology. yet as of this point norrath has not seen a enemy that they could not kill with magic. if this were to arise many people would  die until  someone came up with the musket. still technology has a part in bettering man rather than just war fare. a refrigerator would be a great advancement. even if it would have to be on the black market. thus so if a invention was created that could hold a ice comet then one could use that to charge a magical attack increasing its power. i would think that technology in norrath would lend its self more to modern technology. norath has crystals which means with magic u can create a laser far more powerful than any other attack. magic + technology = awesome power  

[iceriven2]

<p>Gnome may have invented a spaceship that allows them to go to the moon.  But if no one wants to use whats the point of making more?  It has been shown in human history that Romans and greek created things that were not seen again till the industrial Revolution.  They never got much head way back then b/c society didnt need or want the tech.  </p><p> I chalk up every gnome invention thats seen but not massed pruduced as a recent test or something that never really caught on.  Why risk going in an airship when magic transport is proven to be faster and safer?</p>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00;">I'm thinking of one area that Technology would have an edge, Kithicor Isle, the Phantom Sea is a still area so sailing ships tend to flounder, even those that use tinkered elementals to fill the sails. perhaps a steam ship would be required to get to the island, it's lost treasure and to erase the stain (or at least beat it back to EQ1 Levels).</span>

[Drager]

that sounds good. i would like to think that magic like technology is limited by the current information. i wounder would a jet wonder someone from norrath as much as a fire ball would us. so i think there is plenty of room for technology they just need some people to flash forward it. well lets think this way. the first people to use magic they didnt say oh well why do i need to practice this when i can make fire by hitting 2 stones together. they had persistance to try something new even if there were easier ways at first. you may say we dont need technology but remeber that nothing is changing now. we may see later armys of magic less technology users with photon cannons and starships. also with magic u cant hit someone from 300 thousand miles away and if our enemys can  then we are at a  sever disadvantage

[DrkVsr]

<p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">The Assault on McScroogle's Sweatshop (as ah like to call this years Frostfell Event <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) has you using primative bombs to blow up the workstations</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">How long before some ingenious individual gets the idea to use the 'grenades' on mobs?</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Naturally one would have to be careful as it would not be like spells and damage everyone (friend, foe and neutral alike) in the area of effect (maybe would be a great weapon for tanks to use: they get up close and personal with the mob and stuffs the grenade down the mobs throat <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</span></p>

[Xita]

you get to use grenades on mobs in HoF

[DrkVsr]

<span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">That's a start <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span>

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Xita wrote:</cite><blockquote>you get to use grenades on mobs in HoF</blockquote><p>They were not grenades, but bottles with some fluid in it. The closest modern thing to that would be a molotov coktail.</p><p> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail</a></p><p> <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Molotovin_cocktail.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Molotovin_cocktail.jpg/353px-Molotovin_cocktail.jpg" border="0" alt="Image:Molotovin cocktail.jpg" width="353" height="599" /></a></p>

[Drager]

in the very beginning of the game you ahve to blow up some machines in the caves using explosives.

[BarrelRoll]

<cite>Drager@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>in the very beginning of the game you ahve to blow up some machines in the caves using explosives. </blockquote><p>Likely using an explosive substance. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Grenades, for example, aren't new, they've been used for a long long time.</p>

[Drager]

I think what they are trying to do is ease us into technology. with the goblins in kunark being the next step with their salt peter or however they spell it. also the leashes and such that are used to take control of monsters are technology in their own right.

[Morrak]

hmmm i dont remember the sarnaks of eqlive ever having repeating stake cannons..... and tinkering has come along ways too... the most technological thing in eqlive you could get was Brigids Frigid Gnasher -sp?- (yeah thats right... you could get a BFG in eqlive <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>One poster said that technology is born of necessity, and I have to say Gorowyn seems to fit that mold.The Sarnak, being practically ever at war, would be the ideal community to have techno inventions such as the Steamers or the cities lifts. </p><p>The Steamers to deal with mass advances that no other city has to deal with and the lifts to make living in the natural stronghold practical.</p><p>Makes sense to me.</p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote><p>Then why are there things like Underwater breathing appratus, or spring loaded boots? Exploding barrels? Bombs in  your bag (Unrest)...etc...</p><p>Personally if we have exploding barrels and troll snot flingers....I don't see it so far fetched in this 'magical' realm that there couldn't be some sort of flintlock pistols, crossbows, or even shoulder cannons....</p>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote><p>Then why are there things like Underwater breathing appratus, or spring loaded boots? Exploding barrels? Bombs in  your bag (Unrest)...etc...</p><p>Personally if we have exploding barrels and troll snot flingers....I don't see it so far fetched in this 'magical' realm that there couldn't be some sort of flintlock pistols, crossbows, or even shoulder cannons....</p></blockquote><p>Well it seems to me that most of what you stated was for practical usage...</p><p>Magic and such probably covers the offensive usage pretty well and would slow the expansive (this is to mean not exclusive to the hard core inventors, don't know english equivalent so I'll make do) growth of offensive weapons.</p><p>Was the Unrest bomber a gnome ghost or another shorty?</p><p>Are exploding barrels widespread or sparse? Where are they found?</p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>The availability and usefulness of magic tends to slow down the progress of technology.  Why would someone look into making guns, cars, or telephones when there are existing spells that can throw fireballs, teleport to a specific place, or communicate across long distances?</blockquote><p>Then why are there things like Underwater breathing appratus, or spring loaded boots? Exploding barrels? Bombs in  your bag (Unrest)...etc...</p><p>Personally if we have exploding barrels and troll snot flingers....I don't see it so far fetched in this 'magical' realm that there couldn't be some sort of flintlock pistols, crossbows, or even shoulder cannons....</p></blockquote><p>Well it seems to me that most of what you stated was for practical usage...</p><p>Magic and such probably covers the offensive usage pretty well and would slow the expansive (this is to mean not exclusive to the hard core inventors, don't know english equivalent so I'll make do) growth of offensive weapons.</p><p>Was the Unrest bomber a gnome ghost or another shorty?</p><p>Are exploding barrels widespread or sparse? Where are they found?</p></blockquote><p>Most are 'tinkered' items that anyone can use,</p><p>However exploding barrels can be found mostly in Splitpaw...however other zones have been known to have exploding barrels or some other explosion necessary to enter another part of the dungeon. </p><p>The bomb's are from the Gnome ghost in the Game room of Unrest. Pretty funny NPC to kill IMO...</p><p>Simple fact is... how or whatever is used to make exploding barrels or those bombs could be used to make things like flintlock weapons and such...</p><p>/shrug</p>

[Drager]

in my opinion the one enemy that would cause a technological revolution in norrath would be the Shadow men. they being able to traverse through worlds would bring weapons and technology that are not known to magic and thus invunerable to it. with this one case we could see a large technological revolution out of nessesity. also traversing to the void would cause this. i am almost certain that the shadow men have stock piles of information and technology in the void.

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>The Shadowmen probably do but they would have no reason to share their work with the denizens of a plane they are trying to destroy...and because of their subterfuge, we won't be seeing an arms race against them either any time soon.</p><p>And Rashaak, I wouldn't dream of saying that the Norrathians were incapable of inventing and using technology that we are familiar with.</p><p>They can and of that, I am dead certain.</p><p>As for why they haven't done it, I believe that barring the fanatical gnomes who would persue regardless of danger or a community that needed to make weapons or die, or other practical uses such as the underwater devices, the growth of such technology would be extremely slow in Norrath.</p><p>Magic seems to be far more reliable and versatile than early weaponry.</p>

[Tatate]

I think if you fired a musket at the Avatar of War he would just laugh and then "[Removed for Content]pwn u"   

[ke'la]

<cite>Sorzo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think if you fired a musket at the Avatar of War he would just laugh and then "[Removed for Content]pwn u"   </blockquote><p>Accually if you fired an early musket at Nathon Ironforge at anything over ~30 feet he would just laugh at the loud noice maker and ask you if you have seeeeen a Gnoll befor, for the billionth time.</p><p>Early fire arms where WILDLY in accurate and took about 20sec to "recharge" if you where very, very good(the accurate rifles took longer). In stead you could drop Flamestrike <i>(a lvl 43 Spell that does 612 damage, about what a musket would do IF it accually hit)</i> on someone's head, wich hits almost every time, and have it ready to fire again in 3 sec.</p><p>So lets see I could choose a Matchlock Musket(and I am giving you some grace here because an even worst firearm proceded this thing) that:</p><ol><li>does not work in the rain,</li><li>does not hit ANYTHING at over 30 feet, and is even inaccurate closer in, </li><li>takes 20 seconds to "recharge"(reload) and then only if I am VERY good, </li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li><li>and has a good chance of blowing up in your face.</li></ol><p>Or I can choose a fairly commin(this is the part of first spell line a Wizzard gets) spell that:</p><ol><li>works no matter what the weather</li><li>hits almost all the time</li><li>takes 3 seconds to recharge(so if you miss you can fire again faster)</li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li></ol><p>I think I would rather take 20 shots per minute, and have it hit more often then not, then have a weopon that a could very well blow up in my face while only fireing 3 shots per min and doing almost the same amount of damage, assuming I could accually hit anything with it.</p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sorzo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think if you fired a musket at the Avatar of War he would just laugh and then "[Removed for Content]pwn u"   </blockquote><p>Accually if you fired an early musket at Nathon Ironforge at anything over ~30 feet he would just laugh at the loud noice maker and ask you if you have seeeeen a Gnoll befor, for the billionth time.</p><p>Early fire arms where WILDLY in accurate and took about 20sec to "recharge" if you where very, very good(the accurate rifles took longer). In stead you could drop Flamestrike <i>(a lvl 43 Spell that does 612 damage, about what a musket would do IF it accually hit)</i> on someone's head, wich hits almost every time, and have it ready to fire again in 3 sec.</p><p>So lets see I could choose a Matchlock Musket(and I am giving you some grace here because an even worst firearm proceded this thing) that:</p><ol><li>does not work in the rain,</li><li>does not hit ANYTHING at over 30 feet, and is even inaccurate closer in, </li><li>takes 20 seconds to "recharge"(reload) and then only if I am VERY good, </li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li><li>and has a good chance of blowing up in your face.</li></ol><p>Or I can choose a fairly commin(this is the part of first spell line a Wizzard gets) spell that:</p><ol><li>works no matter what the weather</li><li>hits almost all the time</li><li>takes 3 seconds to recharge(so if you miss you can fire again faster)</li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li></ol><p>I think I would rather take 20 shots per minute, and have it hit more often then not, then have a weopon that a could very well blow up in my face while only fireing 3 shots per min and doing almost the same amount of damage, assuming I could accually hit anything with it.</p></blockquote><p>Well...we're all not wizards now are we?  So your arguement is a bit moot. Sure flintlocks were not completely accurate, however with some of the technology we do have, i don't see why these are not something that could be in use. Jindrack's excuse as to why there are not more advanced items was kinda weak sauce to be honest...and basically just took from it that he really didn't have an answer, or the answer...'because i didn't want guns in my game' ya know?  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway...I don't think its too far fetched to have some weaponry other than sword and bows...</p><p>/shrug</p>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>True, not everyone in Norrath is a wizard....but there are enough that if you try to shoot one with anything remotely resembling early guns, you are toast.</p><p>I'd imagine battle would be more of a "fight fire with fire" thing in which normal people could have fun stabbing each other while the big guns tried to take each other out.</p><p>The argument was actually quite valid. How good would that gun be against an assassin? Berserker in full plate? Any of the priests (as they are also spell casters) or any of the mages?</p><p>It might be good for the really really normal civilians but with Norrath in tormoil, its unlikely there would be enough merchants to even bother inventing for if they can just hire someone.</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sorzo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think if you fired a musket at the Avatar of War he would just laugh and then "[Removed for Content]pwn u"   </blockquote><p>Accually if you fired an early musket at Nathon Ironforge at anything over ~30 feet he would just laugh at the loud noice maker and ask you if you have seeeeen a Gnoll befor, for the billionth time.</p><p>Early fire arms where WILDLY in accurate and took about 20sec to "recharge" if you where very, very good(the accurate rifles took longer). In stead you could drop Flamestrike <i>(a lvl 43 Spell that does 612 damage, about what a musket would do IF it accually hit)</i> on someone's head, wich hits almost every time, and have it ready to fire again in 3 sec.</p><p>So lets see I could choose a Matchlock Musket(and I am giving you some grace here because an even worst firearm proceded this thing) that:</p><ol><li>does not work in the rain,</li><li>does not hit ANYTHING at over 30 feet, and is even inaccurate closer in, </li><li>takes 20 seconds to "recharge"(reload) and then only if I am VERY good, </li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li><li>and has a good chance of blowing up in your face.</li></ol><p>Or I can choose a fairly commin(this is the part of first spell line a Wizzard gets) spell that:</p><ol><li>works no matter what the weather</li><li>hits almost all the time</li><li>takes 3 seconds to recharge(so if you miss you can fire again faster)</li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li></ol><p>I think I would rather take 20 shots per minute, and have it hit more often then not, then have a weopon that a could very well blow up in my face while only fireing 3 shots per min and doing almost the same amount of damage, assuming I could accually hit anything with it.</p></blockquote><p>Well...we're all not wizards now are we?  So your arguement is a bit moot. Sure flintlocks were not completely accurate, however with some of the technology we do have, i don't see why these are not something that could be in use. Jindrack's excuse as to why there are not more advanced items was kinda weak sauce to be honest...and basically just took from it that he really didn't have an answer, or the answer...'because i didn't want guns in my game' ya know?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p>Anyway...I don't think its too far fetched to have some weaponry other than sword and bows...</p><p>/shrug</p></blockquote><p>Really you don't think it's too far fetched? Um, how many years have humans been on earth? and how many of them OTHER then those in europe developed guns? How many besides thoughs around the Meditorainian develop Weopons beyond Swords and Bows? Heck how many developed beyond stone age weopons? Answers below:</p><p>Humans have been on earth for about 100,000 years.</p><p>How many humans other then Europians developed guns? NONE.</p><p>How many besides those around the Med developed beyond Swords and Bows? 1 China</p><p>How many besides those around the Med developed beyond the Stone Age? 3 China, Mongul, and Japan</p><p>given above no it's not at all far feched to think that weopons beyond even STONE AGE ones would be developed. Heck if it was not for Europians, The peoples of the Americas, and Sub-Saharian Africa at the very least would STILL be using Stone Age weopons. </p><p>::EDIT::</p><p>Heck <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Shaka Zulu </a>was still using Stone Spears, and Leather Shieds in <b><span style="font-size: x-large;">1824</span></b></p>

[Pyra Shineflame]

<p>But of course, after they started getting guns right technology kind of took off though. </p><p>The Chinese were actually quite impressive with their early weaponry but yea, through in magic into that vat of technological stagnation and we have Norrath!</p>

[Drager]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The Shadowmen probably do but they would have no reason to share their work with the denizens of a plane they are trying to destroy...and because of their subterfuge, we won't be seeing an arms race against them either any time soon.</p><p>And Rashaak, I wouldn't dream of saying that the Norrathians were incapable of inventing and using technology that we are familiar with.</p><p>They can and of that, I am dead certain.</p><p>As for why they haven't done it, I believe that barring the fanatical gnomes who would persue regardless of danger or a community that needed to make weapons or die, or other practical uses such as the underwater devices, the growth of such technology would be extremely slow in Norrath.</p><p>Magic seems to be far more reliable and versatile than early weaponry.</p></blockquote>who says there going to share. steal pillage anything to stay alive the shadowmen (at least the ones we see) are our enemy so if they bring weapons that cant be affected by magic then we will need something that isnt magic)also personally  i think norrath is  at about the time  of a technological revolution. we are seeing more technology  also the continents  are being traveled to (just like earth we couldent have guns without gun powder which is from china)  so with combinations of seemingly worthless technology we can create one really good one that will start a revolution. also back then what we would call science was considered magic (alchemy)

[Tatate]

<p>Early muskets were indeed highly inaccurate, first being used by the Chinese. Well, actually they weren't really muskets, just hand cannons (Which had a nasty reputation of blowing the user's hand off if it misfired). Early grenades were also first used by the Chinese, but I don't really think I would want to try using one due to the high possibility of it blowing me up before I threw it. Indeed though, you would probably need to be within a few yards if you wanted a guaranteed hit. </p><p>Magic > gun powder technology </p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sorzo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think if you fired a musket at the Avatar of War he would just laugh and then "[Removed for Content]pwn u"   </blockquote><p>Accually if you fired an early musket at Nathon Ironforge at anything over ~30 feet he would just laugh at the loud noice maker and ask you if you have seeeeen a Gnoll befor, for the billionth time.</p><p>Early fire arms where WILDLY in accurate and took about 20sec to "recharge" if you where very, very good(the accurate rifles took longer). In stead you could drop Flamestrike <i>(a lvl 43 Spell that does 612 damage, about what a musket would do IF it accually hit)</i> on someone's head, wich hits almost every time, and have it ready to fire again in 3 sec.</p><p>So lets see I could choose a Matchlock Musket(and I am giving you some grace here because an even worst firearm proceded this thing) that:</p><ol><li>does not work in the rain,</li><li>does not hit ANYTHING at over 30 feet, and is even inaccurate closer in, </li><li>takes 20 seconds to "recharge"(reload) and then only if I am VERY good, </li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li><li>and has a good chance of blowing up in your face.</li></ol><p>Or I can choose a fairly commin(this is the part of first spell line a Wizzard gets) spell that:</p><ol><li>works no matter what the weather</li><li>hits almost all the time</li><li>takes 3 seconds to recharge(so if you miss you can fire again faster)</li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li></ol><p>I think I would rather take 20 shots per minute, and have it hit more often then not, then have a weopon that a could very well blow up in my face while only fireing 3 shots per min and doing almost the same amount of damage, assuming I could accually hit anything with it.</p></blockquote><p>Well...we're all not wizards now are we?  So your arguement is a bit moot. Sure flintlocks were not completely accurate, however with some of the technology we do have, i don't see why these are not something that could be in use. Jindrack's excuse as to why there are not more advanced items was kinda weak sauce to be honest...and basically just took from it that he really didn't have an answer, or the answer...'because i didn't want guns in my game' ya know?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p>Anyway...I don't think its too far fetched to have some weaponry other than sword and bows...</p><p>/shrug</p></blockquote><p>Really you don't think it's too far fetched? Um, how many years have humans been on earth? and how many of them OTHER then those in europe developed guns? How many besides thoughs around the Meditorainian develop Weopons beyond Swords and Bows? Heck how many developed beyond stone age weopons? Answers below:</p><p>Humans have been on earth for about 100,000 years.</p><p>How many humans other then Europians developed guns? NONE.</p><p>How many besides those around the Med developed beyond Swords and Bows? 1 China</p><p>How many besides those around the Med developed beyond the Stone Age? 3 China, Mongul, and Japan</p><p>given above no it's not at all far feched to think that weopons beyond even STONE AGE ones would be developed. Heck if it was not for Europians, The peoples of the Americas, and Sub-Saharian Africa at the very least would STILL be using Stone Age weopons. </p><p>::EDIT::</p><p>Heck <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka" target="_blank">Shaka Zulu </a>was still using Stone Spears, and Leather Shieds in <b><span style="font-size: x-large;">1824</span></b></p></blockquote><p>lol</p><p>You are attempting to justify what with your comments on real world history?</p><p>It is not far fetched within this game in its current model to have some type of mechanic that allowed for say guns, bombs, rifles and crossbows. With this FANTASY realm known as Norrath (Everquest) it is completely possible; and is just a matter of developers deciding they want to put it in.  Do not attempt to utilize real life logic and history when dealing with a video game where anything could possibly occur. </p><p>In this game, we have floating citadels, mechanized robots, exploding barrels, explosive device as a main weapon for one NPC named mob, and a slew of other gears and widgets through out Norrath are in this game currently. Also didn't the gnomes create some type of flying machine that crashed on the moon or whatever? Or drill machine... </p><p>How about the HQ that gives you a weight reduction bag from the gnome in Bonemire. You have to collect components that end making a rocket pack....</p><p>Yes...it is completely and entirely possible to have weaponry other than swords and bows in this video game called Everquest 2 because if you want to base things of reality or the real word, there is no such thing as a Fireball or Icestorm "spell" that can be emmited from a person in the real world.</p><p>So yes...it is not so far fetched....</p>

[Gukkor2]

<p>Actually, iirc, there were some concept models for crossbows early on in the development of EQ2, but they never showed up in the actual game.</p>

[Rashaak]

<cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Actually, iirc, there were some concept models for crossbows early on in the development of EQ2, but they never showed up in the actual game.</p></blockquote><p>I remember seeing a screenpic a long time ago of a half-elf girl on the docks with a crossbow on her back, but thought that was for Guildwars... /shrug</p><p>its been awhile...</p>

[DrkVsr]

<p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">There are crossbows all over the place in game, unfortunately they are currently just part of the scenary</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">And Rashaak: you mention that it "is just a matter of developers deciding they want to put it in", but have you considered that maybe the devs have thought about it and decided that they are <b><i><u>not</u></i></b> going to put it in, no matter how much you (or anyone else) rationalises why/how it could/should be put in</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">At the base of it all, EQ2 is a 'Sword & Sorcery' game</span></p>

[Drager]

welll i think they have we have robots and teleporters and plenty of other stuff so if that isnt technology what is?

[Gisallo]

<cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>True, not everyone in Norrath is a wizard....but there are enough that if you try to shoot one with anything remotely resembling early guns, you are toast.</p><p>I'd imagine battle would be more of a "fight fire with fire" thing in which normal people could have fun stabbing each other while the big guns tried to take each other out.</p><p>The argument was actually quite valid. How good would that gun be against an assassin? Berserker in full plate? Any of the priests (as they are also spell casters) or any of the mages?</p><p>It might be good for the really really normal civilians but with Norrath in tormoil, its unlikely there would be enough merchants to even bother inventing for if they can just hire someone.</p></blockquote><p>Actually it was the improvement on the "hand cannon" (into the match lock) and "regular" cannons that completely changed the face of warfare completely.  The amount of plate armor a soldier had to wear became so much that he became combat in-effective.  High, straight, city walls of stone were replaced by short thicker angled walls with stone face filled with earth.  The shapes of cities changed from squares and rectangles to star shaped designed so you could have over lapping fields of fire to better use your cities cannon.</p><p>Here's the rationale I use and it dove tails into the reason for the rending (and perhaps the shattering).  It may have been mentioned previously but I simply brain fried trying to read 11 pages.  </p><p>The gods don't want people to have consistently successful advances in technology.  If the races of Norrath began to do so the gods would be at a loss.  Technology would eventually lead to secularism as it did in the "real" world and this would make the people less dependant on the gods and would lead the races down the same path that led the gods to start the rending.  As such the purposefully take subtle steps to decrease technology (perhaps the main reason for the creation of gnomes, some gizmos work, most fail spectacularly, a great disinsntive <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )The big difference would be that with the increased technology the only real choice the gods would have would be to wipe out their "children" and start fresh, because the lack of using druid rings means nothing if I can catch the "red eye", I don't need a templar or a druid if I have a surgeon and antibiotics, and I certainly don't need a a fire ball if I have a grenade launcher.  </p><p>In short its all a "plot by the man to keep us down dude." </p>

[Gukkor2]

<cite>Gisallo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pyra Shineflame wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>True, not everyone in Norrath is a wizard....but there are enough that if you try to shoot one with anything remotely resembling early guns, you are toast.</p><p>I'd imagine battle would be more of a "fight fire with fire" thing in which normal people could have fun stabbing each other while the big guns tried to take each other out.</p><p>The argument was actually quite valid. How good would that gun be against an assassin? Berserker in full plate? Any of the priests (as they are also spell casters) or any of the mages?</p><p>It might be good for the really really normal civilians but with Norrath in tormoil, its unlikely there would be enough merchants to even bother inventing for if they can just hire someone.</p></blockquote><p>Actually it was the improvement on the "hand cannon" (into the match lock) and "regular" cannons that completely changed the face of warfare completely.  The amount of plate armor a soldier had to wear became so much that he became combat in-effective.  High, straight, city walls of stone were replaced by short thicker angled walls with stone face filled with earth.  The shapes of cities changed from squares and rectangles to star shaped designed so you could have over lapping fields of fire to better use your cities cannon.</p><p>Here's the rationale I use and it dove tails into the reason for the rending (and perhaps the shattering).  It may have been mentioned previously but I simply brain fried trying to read 11 pages.  </p><p>The gods don't want people to have consistently successful advances in technology.  If the races of Norrath began to do so the gods would be at a loss.  Technology would eventually lead to secularism as it did in the "real" world and this would make the people less dependant on the gods and would lead the races down the same path that led the gods to start the rending.  As such the purposefully take subtle steps to decrease technology (perhaps the main reason for the creation of gnomes, some gizmos work, most fail spectacularly, a great disinsntive <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> )The big difference would be that with the increased technology the only real choice the gods would have would be to wipe out their "children" and start fresh, because the lack of using druid rings means nothing if I can catch the "red eye", I don't need a templar or a druid if I have a surgeon and antibiotics, and I certainly don't need a a fire ball if I have a grenade launcher.  </p><p>In short its all a "plot by the man to keep us down dude." </p></blockquote>A valid theory, but the way I see it, if that were so, there wouldn't be a Plane of Innovation and Meldrath the Marvelous would never have ascended, since innovation and technology would have been influences the gods would've wanted to suppress.

[ke'la]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sorzo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think if you fired a musket at the Avatar of War he would just laugh and then "[Removed for Content]pwn u"   </blockquote><p>Accually if you fired an early musket at Nathon Ironforge at anything over ~30 feet he would just laugh at the loud noice maker and ask you if you have seeeeen a Gnoll befor, for the billionth time.</p><p>Early fire arms where WILDLY in accurate and took about 20sec to "recharge" if you where very, very good(the accurate rifles took longer). In stead you could drop Flamestrike <i>(a lvl 43 Spell that does 612 damage, about what a musket would do IF it accually hit)</i> on someone's head, wich hits almost every time, and have it ready to fire again in 3 sec.</p><p>So lets see I could choose a Matchlock Musket(and I am giving you some grace here because an even worst firearm proceded this thing) that:</p><ol><li>does not work in the rain,</li><li>does not hit ANYTHING at over 30 feet, and is even inaccurate closer in, </li><li>takes 20 seconds to "recharge"(reload) and then only if I am VERY good, </li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li><li>and has a good chance of blowing up in your face.</li></ol><p>Or I can choose a fairly commin(this is the part of first spell line a Wizzard gets) spell that:</p><ol><li>works no matter what the weather</li><li>hits almost all the time</li><li>takes 3 seconds to recharge(so if you miss you can fire again faster)</li><li>does a moderate amount of damage.</li></ol><p>I think I would rather take 20 shots per minute, and have it hit more often then not, then have a weopon that a could very well blow up in my face while only fireing 3 shots per min and doing almost the same amount of damage, assuming I could accually hit anything with it.</p></blockquote><p>Well...we're all not wizards now are we?  So your arguement is a bit moot. Sure flintlocks were not completely accurate, however with some of the technology we do have, i don't see why these are not something that could be in use. Jindrack's excuse as to why there are not more advanced items was kinda weak sauce to be honest...and basically just took from it that he really didn't have an answer, or the answer...'because i didn't want guns in my game' ya know?  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p>Anyway...I don't think its too far fetched to have some weaponry other than sword and bows...</p><p>/shrug</p></blockquote><p>Really you don't think it's too far fetched? Um, how many years have humans been on earth? and how many of them OTHER then those in europe developed guns? How many besides thoughs around the Meditorainian develop Weopons beyond Swords and Bows? Heck how many developed beyond stone age weopons? Answers below:</p><p>Humans have been on earth for about 100,000 years.</p><p>How many humans other then Europians developed guns? NONE.</p><p>How many besides those around the Med developed beyond Swords and Bows? 1 China</p><p>How many besides those around the Med developed beyond the Stone Age? 3 China, Mongul, and Japan</p><p>given above no it's not at all far feched to think that weopons beyond even STONE AGE ones would be developed. Heck if it was not for Europians, The peoples of the Americas, and Sub-Saharian Africa at the very least would STILL be using Stone Age weopons. </p><p>::EDIT::</p><p>Heck <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka" target="_blank">Shaka Zulu </a>was still using Stone Spears, and Leather Shieds in <b><span style="font-size: x-large;">1824</span></b></p></blockquote><p>lol</p><p>You are attempting to justify what with your comments on real world history?</p><p>It is not far fetched within this game in its current model to have some type of mechanic that allowed for say guns, bombs, rifles and crossbows. With this FANTASY realm known as Norrath (Everquest) it is completely possible; and is just a matter of developers deciding they want to put it in.  Do not attempt to utilize real life logic and history when dealing with a video game where anything could possibly occur. </p><p>In this game, we have floating citadels, mechanized robots, exploding barrels, explosive device as a main weapon for one NPC named mob, and a slew of other gears and widgets through out Norrath are in this game currently. Also didn't the gnomes create some type of flying machine that crashed on the moon or whatever? Or drill machine... </p><p>How about the HQ that gives you a weight reduction bag from the gnome in Bonemire. You have to collect components that end making a rocket pack....</p><p>Yes...it is completely and entirely possible to have weaponry other than swords and bows in this video game called Everquest 2 because if you want to base things of reality or the real word, there is no such thing as a Fireball or Icestorm "spell" that can be emmited from a person in the real world.</p><p>So yes...it is not so far fetched....</p></blockquote><p>Interesting that up until NOW your side of the arument has been the one using real world exsamples, such as how would a Mage beable to take out a F-14, or I don't think a mage could stand up to an M16 at 500 yards, but I bring up for about the 5th time how you MUST have the early development usless weopons FIRST, those weopons that NO ONE on Norath would touch because magic does the job 1billion times better. Then point out that Techonlogical inovation is not even given when thier is NO MAGIC to slow it down, and now we can't use real world exsamples.</p><p>You don't want real world exsamples ok fine.</p><p>It is a major tenant is 99.99999999999999999999999999% of fantacy that Technolgy and magic don't mix well. As power is power and Magical Power is fairly unpredictable while Technolgy requires VERY preditable power. As such when magic and technolgy mix bad things tend to happen. Usually resulting in large sections of cities going missing. As such Freeport and Qeynos banned large scale Technolgical reasearch to prevent that from happening.</p>

[Beghard]

Any disgusion of having guns in EQ is ABSOLUTLY STUPID! It is you guys who are behind the times not Norath, because this was already thought out before you were probly born.No, plain and simple. If I have to explain why to any one then they should probly spend some time(a lot) reading instead of postinga about guns in norath.

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Gisallo wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Actually it was the improvement on the "hand cannon" (into the match lock) and "regular" cannons that completely changed the face of warfare completely.  The amount of plate armor a soldier had to wear became so much that he became combat in-effective.  High, straight, city walls of stone were replaced by short thicker angled walls with stone face filled with earth.  The shapes of cities changed from squares and rectangles to star shaped designed so you could have over lapping fields of fire to better use your cities cannon.</p><p>Here's the rationale I use and it dove tails into the reason for the rending (and perhaps the shattering).  It may have been mentioned previously but I simply brain fried trying to read 11 pages.  </p><p>The gods don't want people to have consistently successful advances in technology.  If the races of Norrath began to do so the gods would be at a loss.  Technology would eventually lead to secularism as it did in the "real" world and this would make the people less dependant on the gods and would lead the races down the same path that led the gods to start the rending.  As such the purposefully take subtle steps to decrease technology (perhaps the main reason for the creation of gnomes, some gizmos work, most fail spectacularly, a great disinsntive <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> )The big difference would be that with the increased technology the only real choice the gods would have would be to wipe out their "children" and start fresh, because the lack of using druid rings means nothing if I can catch the "red eye", I don't need a templar or a druid if I have a surgeon and antibiotics, and I certainly don't need a a fire ball if I have a grenade launcher.  </p><p>In short its all a "plot by the man to keep us down dude." </p></blockquote><p>I never thought of that. I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible...</p><p>And Beghard, I think the question is "Why has the decision to keep Norrath in the Middle Ages been made" not "Was aformentioned decision made."</p><p>This is a forum and a nice discussion after all, only recently beginning to get less civilised.</p><p>So please, explain to the lack wits (including myself here)what exactly your post is talking about.</p>

[Drager]

i agree that guns are not needed in norrathyou do not need the paliminary technologies to build greater technologys. for one, an in game example have you ever seen anything that a tinkerer makes. asortments of fighting robots, teleporters , repair bots, mechanical snakes and spiders i can say just from those examples that norarth is far more technologicly advanced than earth. as such all norrath needs to do  is apply this technology to more offensive means 

[Gisallo]

<cite>Beghard wrote:</cite><blockquote>Any disgusion of having guns in EQ is ABSOLUTLY STUPID! It is you guys who are behind the times not Norath, because this was already thought out before you were probly born.No, plain and simple. If I have to explain why to any one then they should probly spend some time(a lot) reading instead of postinga about guns in norath.</blockquote><p>Beghard, I think your reaction is a little extreme.  People aren't so much saying "why can't <b>I </b>have a gun" as much as why does there appear to be so little technological advance in over 500 years.  Since most of the game is about fighting things, its only natural that weapons technology becomes a focal point of the conversation.</p><p>Does it make sense to have guns in Norrath?  For the sake of the story probably not.  Once you have come to that conclusion though some people want an actual reason that fits with the mileu.  To do that you say "what made for technological advances in the real world", then you have to ask yourself "with similar or greater cultural stresses in the World of Norrath, and the clear existance of  people who like to "tinker" why didn't these advances occurr here."  Its been an intellectual exercise.  Whats the big deal? </p>

[Gisallo]

<cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>A valid theory, but the way I see it, if that were so, there wouldn't be a Plane of Innovation and Meldrath the Marvelous would never have ascended, since innovation and technology would have been influences the gods would've wanted to suppress.</blockquote><p>I didn't say they stop all technology <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Clearly with the nature the Gnomes were created with and the Plain of Innovation, technology exists.  A gnome wants you to build a rocket pack in one HQ, as other's also said there are exploding barrels, fireworks and in the "Way of the Fay" books, you can buy at a book store in Kelethin, you read about the Gnomish War machines climbing over the mountains to face the Feir'Dal and their minions (don't know about the other cities have only made toons that start in Kelethin).   My theroy is just that the gods have decided which technologies are safe and which are not.  They then "encourage" their creations to stay on the safe side by the occassional SPECTACULAR disaster.  I mean if someone goes to build a cannon and it takes out a city block (along with the inventor), when it goes horribly wrong, is someone else going to try again later, or are they just going to call their local wizzy or fury to throw that timely fireball <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  When someone goes to build the little clockwork robot though the hisses and clanks and needs to be wound up though, its all good.</p><p>As others also said, technology and magic are often treated as incompatable in the genre in general (though clearly not entirely in EQII).  This thread has actually made me remember one of my favorite Comics back in the day, "Grimjack".  For those that never read it he lived in a city called Cynosure, where multiple dimensions meet, occassionally go in and out of phase with one another etc.  The tag line was "technology works over here, magic works over there, and swords...work every where."  </p>

[Drager]

if there <strike>are</strike> were really  giant city destroyer  cannons there should be a blue print some where....... lets try checking the corpse i think what the real problem with the gnomes and there machines was they never tested anything. rather than slowly amping up the power they would say hey what would happen if i turned this nob all the way to here, then the thing goes boom.with the magic and tech deal i can say you can use magic with technology but you have to put it into a medium like boiling water or starting a fire, something regulated and managable like a dot spell maybe "well i need this refrigerator dealy to be cold so a. i could through a ice comet into it or b. ice spikes" now everyone wants to know what an ice comet would do but you wont live through it so try the less powerful one first you will thank me laterin zek there is a giant automated catapult thingy

[Rashaak]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Interesting that up until NOW your side of the arument has been the one using real world exsamples, such as how would a Mage beable to take out a F-14, or I don't think a mage could stand up to an M16 at 500 yards, but I bring up for about the 5th time how you MUST have the early development usless weopons FIRST, those weopons that NO ONE on Norath would touch because magic does the job 1billion times better. Then point out that Techonlogical inovation is not even given when thier is NO MAGIC to slow it down, and now we can't use real world exsamples. <p>You don't want real world exsamples ok fine.</p><p>It is a major tenant is 99.99999999999999999999999999% of fantacy that Technolgy and magic don't mix well. As power is power and Magical Power is fairly unpredictable while Technolgy requires VERY preditable power. As such when magic and technolgy mix bad things tend to happen. Usually resulting in large sections of cities going missing. As such Freeport and Qeynos banned large scale Technolgical reasearch to prevent that from happening.</p></blockquote><p>Examples Ke'la... do you understand what that means? Obviously you don't....but let me clarify for you so you can stop hitting your head against the wall and save some brain matter. I gave examples of possible weapons that could be in use within Norrath due to its time frame. You can't have laser guided rocket launchers, h-bombs, a-bombs, etc. That is too far out there to even consider...however things 'such' as (*holds Ke'la close and pets him* this is where 'example' comes into play just to give you an imaginative idea of what could be seen). 'Such' as flintlocks, bombs (grenade type), crossbows, shoulder cannons (think cannons from Mulan). A lot of these things could be utilized within Norrath in its current state on not cause too much of a question on how they could be there.</p><p>Like I said these are examples and just examples to give you an idea of what you could see...meaning -- allowing you to utilize your imagination to get an idea of possibilities. Throw out that idiotic real world logic on how to incorporate them based off the fact you'd have to as you said have 'early development' that did not make them worth while.</p><p>However...if you wanted to figure 'early development' and these 'guns' usefulness or effectiveness...they were entirely effective and deadly. Most who were shot either died from the gun shot or soon there after due to infections and the sort.</p><p>So again...if things such as these were added to the game they would be only as effective as the developers decided to let them be.  Also if Technology and Magic does not mix then why are there Robots in this game? They are obviously made through technology and magic are they not? Also...as you said...magic is unpredictable but so is technology...otherwise the gnomes would still have control of their robots now wouldn't they? The plane and simple fact is...certain things CAN be added if developers wanted them there...because it is a video game...and thats all it is...</p><p>In closing....I say again...it wouldn't be too difficult to incorporate different 'technology' for weapons, armor, items and is not something that simply 'can't' be done...but more so 'won't' be done for what ever the reason the developers decided on. I can see single shot rifles or hand guns, useable crossbows, cannons, and bombs (grenade...hand thrown type). The technology is already there in regards to black powder (i.e. exploding barrels) so...to have a some gnome decide to use that black powder in something a bit more portable is not too far fetched!</p><p>Now I gave my opinion....agree...disagree, whatever...but don't say that it CAN'T be done...because it can if the developers decide to allow it...</p>

[Drager]

i dont think the developers wont do it i think they are doing it  with tinkers and everythingalso you dont need the paliminary technologies in norrath because you can put on a piece of armor and gain 50 intelligencehey devs when will we have automated robot panther mounts?

[Pyra Shineflame]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Examples Ke'la... do you understand what that means? Obviously you don't....but let me clarify for you so you can stop hitting your head against the wall and save some brain matter. I gave examples of possible weapons that could be in use within Norrath due to its time frame. You can't have laser guided rocket launchers, h-bombs, a-bombs, etc. That is too far out there to even consider...however things 'such' as (*holds Ke'la close and pets him* this is where 'example' comes into play just to give you an imaginative idea of what could be seen). 'Such' as flintlocks, bombs (grenade type), crossbows, shoulder cannons (think cannons from Mulan). A lot of these things could be utilized within Norrath in its current state on not cause too much of a question on how they could be there.</p><p>Like I said these are examples and just examples to give you an idea of what you could see...meaning -- allowing you to utilize your imagination to get an idea of possibilities. Throw out that idiotic real world logic on how to incorporate them based off the fact you'd have to as you said have 'early development' that did not make them worth while.</p><p>However...if you wanted to figure 'early development' and these 'guns' usefulness or effectiveness...they were entirely effective and deadly. Most who were shot either died from the gun shot or soon there after due to infections and the sort.</p><p>So again...if things such as these were added to the game they would be only as effective as the developers decided to let them be.  Also if Technology and Magic does not mix then why are there Robots in this game? They are obviously made through technology and magic are they not? Also...as you said...magic is unpredictable but so is technology...otherwise the gnomes would still have control of their robots now wouldn't they? The plane and simple fact is...certain things CAN be added if developers wanted them there...because it is a video game...and thats all it is...</p><p>In closing....I say again...it wouldn't be too difficult to incorporate different 'technology' for weapons, armor, items and is not something that simply 'can't' be done...but more so 'won't' be done for what ever the reason the developers decided on. I can see single shot rifles or hand guns, useable crossbows, cannons, and bombs (grenade...hand thrown type). The technology is already there in regards to black powder (i.e. exploding barrels) so...to have a some gnome decide to use that black powder in something a bit more portable is not too far fetched!</p><p>Now I gave my opinion....agree...disagree, whatever...but don't say that it CAN'T be done...because it can if the developers decide to allow it...</p></blockquote><p>I'm not Ke'la so I won't say anything on the abrasive tone of your post (oops).</p><p>Anyhow, said guns weren't effective as they needed a range that any trained bowman could reach and took far longer than a bow to reload.</p><p>The only pros would be the lack of training needed and the side effects of being shot in that time period.</p><p>In Norrath with the priesthood, the second pro is negated.</p><p>On a purely argumentative note...was this post arguing for or against having primitive offensive tech in Norrath? I must admit with the magic/tech are both unreliable point in the middle and with the whole bunch of rambling I got confused =/</p>

[Piratejoe]

<p>In Earth human history the technological advancment of man actually was very very slow. Man would make a few strides forward in one department only too have a disaster come and erase all that. Its only now after thousands and thousands of years have we made great strides.</p><p> In Norrath their no different, Norrath 500 years ago was probably were the Roman Empire was in Technology but a series of wars and major disasters erased much of those advances, sound familier? Norrath will at some point go thru a age of rediscovery and maybe advance even further but that time is not now, they are just emerging from their own version of the dark ages. </p>

[Arslan2000]

<p>I have only read up to page 4 of this thread so far, so I apologize if this was mentioned.</p><p>In the debate of technology versus magic, there is one aspect that has failed to show up so far.  Battle Magic, or War Magic.  In a high magical world,  there are often war spells that are to difficult to use in the quick skirmish, but are reliable and useful in a war.  In other words, they could have the magical equivelant of cannons, and bombs.  Yes, even nuclear bombs.  This subject has not been brought up in Norrath before that I have seen, but many other fantasy worlds have brought this to bear.  </p><p>This subject tends to come up when some technophile starts spewing how much better the modern world is and how many improvements we have had.  </p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ke'la wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Interesting that up until NOW your side of the arument has been the one using real world exsamples, such as how would a Mage beable to take out a F-14, or I don't think a mage could stand up to an M16 at 500 yards, but I bring up for about the 5th time how you MUST have the early development usless weopons FIRST, those weopons that NO ONE on Norath would touch because magic does the job 1billion times better. Then point out that Techonlogical inovation is not even given when thier is NO MAGIC to slow it down, and now we can't use real world exsamples. <p>You don't want real world exsamples ok fine.</p><p>It is a major tenant is 99.99999999999999999999999999% of fantacy that Technolgy and magic don't mix well. As power is power and Magical Power is fairly unpredictable while Technolgy requires VERY preditable power. As such when magic and technolgy mix bad things tend to happen. Usually resulting in large sections of cities going missing. As such Freeport and Qeynos banned large scale Technolgical reasearch to prevent that from happening.</p></blockquote><p>Examples Ke'la... do you understand what that means? Obviously you don't....but let me clarify for you so you can stop hitting your head against the wall and save some brain matter. I gave examples of possible weapons that could be in use within Norrath due to its time frame. You can't have laser guided rocket launchers, h-bombs, a-bombs, etc. That is too far out there to even consider...however things 'such' as (*holds Ke'la close and pets him* this is where 'example' comes into play just to give you an imaginative idea of what could be seen). 'Such' as flintlocks, bombs (grenade type), crossbows, shoulder cannons (think cannons from Mulan). A lot of these things could be utilized within Norrath in its current state on not cause too much of a question on how they could be there.</p><p>Like I said these are examples and just examples to give you an idea of what you could see...meaning -- allowing you to utilize your imagination to get an idea of possibilities. Throw out that idiotic real world logic on how to incorporate them based off the fact you'd have to as you said have 'early development' that did not make them worth while.</p><p>However...if you wanted to figure 'early development' and these 'guns' usefulness or effectiveness...they were entirely effective and deadly. Most who were shot either died from the gun shot or soon there after due to infections and the sort.</p><p>So again...if things such as these were added to the game they would be only as effective as the developers decided to let them be.  Also if Technology and Magic does not mix then why are there Robots in this game? They are obviously made through technology and magic are they not? Also...as you said...magic is unpredictable but so is technology...otherwise the gnomes would still have control of their robots now wouldn't they? The plane and simple fact is...certain things CAN be added if developers wanted them there...because it is a video game...and thats all it is...</p><p>In closing....I say again...it wouldn't be too difficult to incorporate different 'technology' for weapons, armor, items and is not something that simply 'can't' be done...but more so 'won't' be done for what ever the reason the developers decided on. I can see single shot rifles or hand guns, useable crossbows, cannons, and bombs (grenade...hand thrown type). The technology is already there in regards to black powder (i.e. exploding barrels) so...to have a some gnome decide to use that black powder in something a bit more portable is not too far fetched!</p><p>Now I gave my opinion....agree...disagree, whatever...but don't say that it CAN'T be done...because it can if the developers decide to allow it...</p></blockquote><p>So because my real world EXSAMPLES blow your arument out of the water then I can't use real world EXSAMPLES. But as your real world EXSAMPLES suport(wich they don't) your argument you can use real world EXSAMPLES. Ok now I know the ground rules.</p><p>Another real world EXSAMPLE of technagy not always advancing. From 2570 BCE until AD 1300 Great Pyramid of Giza, Egypt was the tallest freestanding structure in the world, why because it took that long to rediscover the technical capablities to make a structure that tall. The Romans used a Plumbing network that would be familar to any plumber today, yet Europe did not have indoor plumbing again until the 18th centery. </p><p>Technogy does not just advance it also retreats, the Roman lifestyle was closer to our lifestyle then the lifestyle of those living in the Middle Ages, because they lost nearly all the techincal capablities from the time of the Romans. And all that happened thier was an Empire slowly died. On the other hand, on Norath, a huge part of the contenant Sunk into the Ocean, The Moon exploded and large chunks fell to the ground, the Human Cities where nearly detroyied thanks to the Rilosian Army, the Elven Cities did get destroid, the Dwarfs and Gnomes where kicked out of thier cities, the Barbain City melted away, and on top of all that the gods left taken thier powers with them. I think after all that termoil the loss of some technogies would be expected, consitering it took far less of an upheavel to send the peoples of earth back to nearly the stone age.</p>

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Drager@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>i dont think the developers wont do it i think they are doing it  with tinkers and everythingalso you dont need the paliminary technologies in norrath because you can put on a piece of armor and gain 50 intelligencehey devs when will we have automated robot panther mounts? </blockquote>A post before the month runs out, thus rendering this a necropost....but I want to address a few points brought up.In EQLive, they have 'roboboars' as a mount option...I have a necromancer riding around on one.  He looks...more than slightly comical.Only recently have the gods started returning - and I'll agree that they have a vested interest in keeping technological innovation to a minimum (if any).  However, because they <i>did</i> abandon the mortal world - and what's more, the mortals <i>knew</i> they abandoned them - then it makes sense that mortal innovation would extend to fill the void left by the gods.  In addition, there are likely going to be a lot of mortals who are more than slightly peeved at the gods for their (perceived) callous treatment - and would thus do anything to avoid having to depend on a capricious deity's questionable graces.  Heck, the entire Rending can ultimately be laid at the feet of Quellious, a supposedly 'good' deity, deserved or not.The clockwork mechanism has pretty much been perfected...thus paving the way for an accurate firearm technology, namely the wheellock pistol.  Only the difficulty of repair would keep them from widespread proliferation, as well as the expense of owning one, and the reputation of anything 'clockwork' in Norrath is also a big obstacle.  The <i>Savage Coast</i> accessory for AD&D shows how an essentially medieval society <i>could</i> develop such technology, even <i>with</i> deific presence.All that being said...we aren't going to see guns in Norrath, period.  There's really no call for them, plus the developers have too much on their plate already - even if some of the 'too much' is stuff they never intend to work on, anyways.

[Drager]

i agree with you and thus validating your necro post <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />i do not think "guns" will ever be put into EQ2 but you cannot say the same about an automatic bow. or any other projectile weapon. we can use the clockworks as an example. a robot cannot use magic so they must rely on technology that can equal its strength.  this includes  projectile weapons. when fighting theses monsters they pose a equal match with circular saws and ummm what ever else they use to any adventure  to teh point they are ^^ ^ and epics. now i will speculate that the Devs will continue to increase the technology in EQ2 with each Expansion (tinkering). will we ever see a gun...i doubt it, how about a automatic bow.....maybe seeing as this would not interfer with any class weapons.

[troodon]

Every time I think this thread is dead someone posts in it again.  I beg you to stop.

[Wolfsiege]

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every time I think this thread is dead someone posts in it again.  I beg you to stop.</blockquote>I agree with Troodon, beating a dead horse isn't going to make it get up and run again. Just let it go guys, this thread isn't going to change anything, you're all just wasting your breath.Wolfsiege

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Wolfsiege@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every time I think this thread is dead someone posts in it again.  I beg you to stop.</blockquote>I agree with Troodon, beating a dead horse isn't going to make it get up and run again. Just let it go guys, this thread isn't going to change anything, you're all just wasting your breath.Wolfsiege</blockquote>Change is not always the point, necessarily...even those threads that <i>do</i> hope to change something will likely see their desires wither and die before even making it to the vine.  Sometimes the point is the simple free exchange of thought and ideas...and I am not quite ready to up and tell someone they have nothing to say on a subject, even if I disagree with them or I think a subject is completely pointless.  My urge to criticize and belittle others hasn't quite grown to that point yet.