Necro Dps - RoK

[Winsarc11]

<p>Has anyone noticed there dps not really change since RoK release despite leveling up, increased spell dmg, upgrades to gear and decrease in mobs lvl.</p><p> MIS yesterday i was doing the same or even less than usual dps and the mobs were blue and i was lvl 76</p><p>My pet was adept3 as well as most of my dmg spells (70 -76) </p><p> This doesnt make any sense at all mathematically so [Removed for Content] is going on</p>

[Virulence]

<p>Ive noticed that dps has changed so little as to be in the proverbial mathematical standard error of measure from 70 to 73 even though Ive added around +100 spell dmg and upgraded 3 spells. I had a working hypothesis that upgrading spells from tier7 to 8 by going from master I to adeptIII was in fact moving backwards due to the increased resistance rate with only minimal dmg increases. There doesnt seem to be the same power/dmg multiplier there was from say moving from Tier6 to 7.</p><p>I would really like to see the raw data before commenting further tho and since I havent really raided yet since launch I dont have it.</p>

[Inggy]

<p>Not had the chance to raid since the RoK release but viewing my log files I can tell you solo'n or duo'n with my wifes Templar my DPS is lower some fights and normal the next -- say a typical 10 to 19 sec solo encounter fight the DPS varied from 600 to 1200 regardless of blue to yellow con.  I can assume part of the variation is resisted spells as I seem to be getting more resists in RoK vs KoS.  I've not checked out DPS on KoS mobs since RoK released.  No I have not upgraded any spell since RoK came out, still using the old M1's including pet.</p><p>Another thing is the BoE bug when one minute your spell shows correct damage and next its showing with much lower damage, I'm really wondering if this lower damage isn't just a UI graphical issue but your spell has actually dropped in damage when that bug shows up, that in itself could account for alot of the damage variation.</p><p>Odd thing though, speaking of higher resist rates, on a whim went into a level 80 instance with a 71-75 (I was 73) guild group (didnt kill the 1st named--he hurts--alot <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> no problems with the level 80^^^ trash and was not having resist issues with orange to redish mobs in there but go outside to the solo blue to yellow mobs the resists started again.  Completely opposite of what you would expect. Still it was a nice break from the endless faction quests (shoots self in head--mummering to his self that he paid for this abuse).</p>

[evhallion]

<p>Want to see where you're losing DPS? Possess your master T7 mage pet and right-click examine his spells on the hotbar. Now remember or screenshot the numbers. Now Summon your lvl 75 T8 mage pet, possess it and examine it's spells. See the difference? Should look something like this:</p><p>New Pet (Adept 3)                                                           Old Pet (Master 1)</p><p><a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"></a><img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/evhallion/magepet-spells-adept3.jpg" alt="" width="290" height="547" border="0" /> <img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/evhallion/magepet-spells-master1.jpg" alt="" width="291" height="554" border="0" /></p><p>See where the problem is?</p>

[Virulence]

what the heck!

[Pheliac]

<p>I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense to me. That an old Master 1 pet would out damage a new Adept3? Adept 1 maybe, but certainly not adept3!</p><p> Anyone know if it was like this in beta? Are other classes in the same position?</p>

[Sosum]

Adep3 SHOULD be higher than the previous tiers master ...  it only makes since in the world of progression and our pets are just simply not using or purchasing right now...I ran pet on guild mate duels to run parses of damage from the pet.  The T7master SMOKED in the worst way the pants off my adept3 pet for T8.  I'm so glad I wasted two rares on pets I wont use, lower damage and higher resist ability being non-master pets .. Thanks SOE, PLEASE review this!!!I understand its new and the numbers need working so please adjust this quickly.

[Sosum]

<cite>Samadhi@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense to me. That an old Master 1 pet would out damage a new Adept3? Adept 1 maybe, but certainly not adept3!</p><p> Anyone know if it was like this in beta? Are other classes in the same position?</p></blockquote>in beta the app2 did better than my master (scout) but I only ran that for a short period before soloing with tank pet to run quests.I hope this gets adjusted quickly.

[KBern]

<p>Yeah all we can do is bug it in game and keep posting here or in a thread in the main abilities/spells section.  This is something any of us can prove visually at any time simply by possessing or parsing our pets at any time.</p><p>The next tier adept 3's should always be slightly better than the previous tiers masters.</p>

[Virulence]

<cite>Sosumya@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Adep3 SHOULD be higher than the previous tiers master ...  it only makes since in the world of progression and our pets are just simply not using or purchasing right now...I ran pet on guild mate duels to run parses of damage from the pet.  The T7master SMOKED in the worst way the pants off my adept3 pet for T8.  I'm so glad I wasted two rares on pets I wont use, lower damage and higher resist ability being non-master pets .. Thanks SOE, PLEASE review this!!!I understand its new and the numbers need working so please adjust this quickly.</blockquote>This has to be an oversight, I cant possibly imagine it was intended.

[Sosum]

<cite>Virulence wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sosumya@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Adep3 SHOULD be higher than the previous tiers master ...  it only makes since in the world of progression and our pets are just simply not using or purchasing right now...I ran pet on guild mate duels to run parses of damage from the pet.  The T7master SMOKED in the worst way the pants off my adept3 pet for T8.  I'm so glad I wasted two rares on pets I wont use, lower damage and higher resist ability being non-master pets .. Thanks SOE, PLEASE review this!!!I understand its new and the numbers need working so please adjust this quickly.</blockquote>This has to be an oversight, I cant possibly imagine it was intended.</blockquote>Which is why I am not too upset yet... now our t8 adept1's are lower than the master but the adept3 necro spells feel appropriate(for the most part).The pet ones clearly need to be reviewed and adjusted and this expansion is barely a week live, that is plenty of time to get it right.

[Deila]

<p>Most of the t8 adept IIIs are either only arguably upgrades to previous m1's (barely better in some categories, actually worse in others), or are clear downgrades. See Rending, for example - Rending adept III increases pet DPS and attack speed by 28; previous m1 increases both by 30.</p><p>Necromancer spells in t8 need to be looked at.</p>

[tbone7777]

The mage pet's spells will increase as you level. It will probably be level 79 ish before the T8 pet overtakes the T7 pet's spells.

[jaff247]

yah, definately dont upgrade t7 masters to t8 adept III's, i made that costly mistake in getting like everything upgradeddamage improvement is nearly non existentmana cost is way higherRESIST CITYand some spells are downgradesm1 pet defence stance at 70 gives 16% additional hp, adept III at 80 gives 14%lich m1 at 70 gives 1.6% mana per tick, new lich adept III at 80 gives 1.4% mana per ticksigh, money wasted.

[WasFycksir]

<p>NVM</p>

[Za]

<cite>Deila wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Most of the t8 adept IIIs are either only arguably upgrades to previous m1's (barely better in some categories, actually worse in others), or are clear downgrades. See Rending, for example - Rending adept III increases pet DPS and attack speed by 28; previous m1 increases both by 30.</p><p>Necromancer spells in t8 need to be looked at.</p></blockquote><p>No it doesn't in these cases this is how it always has been and ALWAYS SHOULD BE.</p><p>Spells that do damage... yes the M1 from one tier will be marginally better than the Adept III from the next tier up.  The numbers are % based for the most part, and the overlap between tiers occurs someplace between the Adept III and M1 spells... </p><p>But for spells like our fear... stun... roots... and debuff(rending) lines, the difference is often a combination of effectiveness and resitability as well as level where degredation begins. For these spells there's no way to upgrade the parts that are % based.</p><p>So... there's no sence in upgrading our fear or stun for example if you already have M1, and aren't fighting mobs that are past it's level of degradation. And no... there's no way to make the Adept III of the next level "clearly" better than the M1 you already have. The M1 benefit of the M1 is resitability, and they can't simply just keep making the resistability higher and higher...</p><p>So, just be smart with your upgrading and realize that some spells won't need to be upgraded until you're fighting mobs that would benefit from the upgrade. </p><p>Now... pets should fall under the 1st example. Their nukes should follow the same tier progression as ours do. So the post from earlier seems wrong.</p>

[Za]

<p>ok... I will say this. There are some problems with our pets.</p><p>I'll post pictures when I can, but I just did a posess of my L60 M1 vs my L73 M1 rogue pet, and the spell differnces are wacky and inconsistant at best. </p><p>For most spells the damage is 1 or 2 points difference. </p><p>For example ( This is based on both pets being cast with no buffs or anything, just base pet spell)</p><ul><li>Shadestrike for my L60 pet = 1039 - 1732</li><li>Shadestrike for my L73 pet = 1065 - 1775</li></ul><p>Ok... seems minute... but ok whatever...</p><ul><li>Acidity L60 pet = 223 - 289</li><li>Acidity L73 pet = 238 - 397</li></ul><p>More Reasonable</p><ul><li>Unseen Blade L60 = 606 - 1010</li><li>Unseen Blade L73 = 621-1035</li></ul><p>Another seeminglu minute difference</p><ul><li>Throat Gash L60 = 69 damage immediately + 4/sec   +   259-433    + -92 WIS/AGI </li><li>Throat Gash L73 = 70 damage immediately + 4/sec   +   266-443    + -93 WIS/AGI </li></ul><p>Was this even an upgrade?</p><ul><li>Shadow Garrote L60 = Stifle +    412-686   + Resistability increases vs targets L92+</li><li>Shadow Garrote L73 = Stifle +    420-700   + Resistability increases vs targets L93+</li></ul><p>Hmm... Not only does it look like a miniumal upgrade... but the resistability level increases at around the same time... so whats the difference?</p><ul><li>Poison Spike L60 = 60 damage immediately + 3/sec   +    216-360 damage</li><li>Poison Spike L60 = 73 damage immediately + 3/sec   +    221-369 damage</li></ul><p>Again... no real difference what so ever.</p><p>This is comparing T7 MASTER I to T8 MASTER I. So I can immagine that T8 Adept IIIs will absolutely suck vs the T7 M1 pets. Now, I can see that becasue the T8's auto attack damage will continue to get better, and its relative level vs you and the mobs you're fighting will continue to get higher, while the T7 pet will stop growing at L72... The T8 is "better"... But not until you really get to the point that the level difference outshines the fact that your T7 pet is just vastly superior to a T8 Adept. This just seems incredibly wrong.</p>

[Soul Crusher]

<cite>Zald wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ok... I will say this. There are some problems with our pets.</p><p>I'll post pictures when I can, but I just did a posess of my L60 M1 vs my L73 M1 rogue pet, and the spell differnces are wacky and inconsistant at best. </p><p>For most spells the damage is 1 or 2 points difference. </p><p>For example ( This is based on both pets being cast with no buffs or anything, just base pet spell)</p><ul><li>Shadestrike for my L60 pet = 1039 - 1732</li><li>Shadestrike for my L73 pet = 1065 - 1775</li></ul><p>Ok... seems minute... but ok whatever...</p><ul><li>Acidity L60 pet = 223 - 289</li><li>Acidity L73 pet = 238 - 397</li></ul><p>More Reasonable</p><ul><li>Unseen Blade L60 = 606 - 1010</li><li>Unseen Blade L73 = 621-1035</li></ul><p>Another seeminglu minute difference</p><ul><li>Throat Gash L60 = 69 damage immediately + 4/sec   +   259-433    + -92 WIS/AGI </li><li>Throat Gash L73 = 70 damage immediately + 4/sec   +   266-443    + -93 WIS/AGI </li></ul><p>Was this even an upgrade?</p><ul><li>Shadow Garrote L60 = Stifle +    412-686   + Resistability increases vs targets L92+</li><li>Shadow Garrote L73 = Stifle +    420-700   + Resistability increases vs targets L93+</li></ul><p>Hmm... Not only does it look like a miniumal upgrade... but the resistability level increases at around the same time... so whats the difference?</p><ul><li>Poison Spike L60 = 60 damage immediately + 3/sec   +    216-360 damage</li><li>Poison Spike L60 = 73 damage immediately + 3/sec   +    221-369 damage</li></ul><p>Again... no real difference what so ever.</p><p>This is comparing T7 MASTER I to T8 MASTER I. So I can immagine that T8 Adept IIIs will absolutely suck vs the T7 M1 pets. Now, I can see that becasue the T8's auto attack damage will continue to get better, and its relative level vs you and the mobs you're fighting will continue to get higher, while the T7 pet will stop growing at L72... The T8 is "better"... But not until you really get to the point that the level difference outshines the fact that your T7 pet is just vastly superior to a T8 Adept. This just seems incredibly wrong.</p></blockquote>You know that the Scout pet from lvl 60 is TIER >>6<<, 61-70 it tier 7 and 71-80 is tier 8, since level 70 Archlich is getting upgraded in lvl 80, so we can complain even more that a pet 2 TIERS AGO is doing just as good as one 2 expansions later!

[Solarax]

this also leads to the agro management problems when using the t8 tank as our dps causes more damage agro

[Toxi]

 I never search these boards but came here looking for answers.. Nice to see I am not the only one confused about my DPS being lower than before.   I feel I have done quite a bit of upgrading to gear and spells so far yet I have absolutely nothing to show for it numbers wise.  It is quite frustrating..

[Solarax]

today i had all the fights parsed to see where i was sitting and i was just above the healer in CoA so my only benifit was i could FD and charm undead for a minute to save on some adds.our group had SK, Monk , Wizard , Nec( me lvl80 134aa) a druid and dirge. so the fact that on every fight me being the necro that i am , not only was I disappointed but so was everyone else with my dps as some of these people have grouped with me in KoS and EoF and knew my skills then.i was even accused (jokingly) by one of them that i was just afk.unfortunately any time i was not at the bottom of the list it was because i had critted my big spells and i have around +800 damage in gear . i didnt need to worry about agro so i even used my prime circlet of dominion instead of my stitched sel'nok helmoh i was using AD3 t8 scout pet btw. (mage pet died a couple times from mob CA)so im just wondering if this is the vision of the new necro. able to solo t7 stuff but in a group we are a poor healer and backup in case of wipes .

[Sabutai]

<cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>today i had all the fights parsed to see where i was sitting and i was just above the healer in CoA so my only benifit was i could FD and charm undead for a minute to save on some adds.our group had SK, Monk , Wizard , Nec( me lvl80 134aa) a druid and dirge. so the fact that on every fight me being the necro that i am , not only was I disappointed but so was everyone else with my dps as some of these people have grouped with me in KoS and EoF and knew my skills then.i was even accused (jokingly) by one of them that i was just afk.unfortunately any time i was not at the bottom of the list it was because i had critted my big spells and i have around +800 damage in gear . i didnt need to worry about agro so i even used my prime circlet of dominion instead of my stitched sel'nok helmoh i was using AD3 t8 scout pet btw. (mage pet died a couple times from mob CA)so im just wondering if this is the vision of the new necro. able to solo t7 stuff but in a group we are a poor healer and backup in case of wipes .</blockquote>Well your group kinda sucked.  But if you think your dps went DOWN from one expansion to the next your smoking crack especially if you were in the same group.

[Solarax]

no my dps <span style="font-size: small;"><b>position</b></span> went down from always being in one of the top 2 in that group to having to really try hard just to make number3. and i dont see how a group sucks. explain please.

[Solarax]

oh btw i just had a necro named goergee or something like that (splitpaw) send me a tell asking me some questions about our agro.basically he wanted to know if something was wrong or if it was just him because his pet was not holding agro and he kept dieing . think he is only lvl 74 or something ( not sure because 2 other necros where asking questions about aa and cant remember which necro went with what level)told him basically use feedback and bug commands .

[Conequis]

<cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>no my dps <span style="font-size: small;"><b>position</b></span> went down from always being in one of the top 2 in that group to having to really try hard just to make number3. and i dont see how a group sucks. explain please.</blockquote>Simple explanation.  It was not Sony's intent on making us the top tier DPS, therefore they probably increased the DPS of others in your group.  So if you have a ranger, assasain, warlock, or wizzy in your group, you will be lower DPS.  Also keep in mind our dps comes from long duration fights.  Yes, I have been out DPSed by a berserker before just because of their burst DPS in a fight.Keep in mind my reply was without knowing the group make-up or what you were fighting, so a lot of assumptions going on atm.

[Sabutai]

<cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>no my dps <span style="font-size: small;"><b>position</b></span> went down from always being in one of the top 2 in that group to having to really try hard just to make number3. and i dont see how a group sucks. explain please.</blockquote>your group sucked cause it doesn't have a troub which accounts for a great deal of our dps.  My dps has gone up about 800 since the expansion, I am still in the top 3 or 4 ZW depending on who we have, usually our swash assassin and wiz are above me, but my dps hasn't gone down at all.

[Solarax]

<cite>Conequis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>no my dps <span style="font-size: small;"><b>position</b></span> went down from always being in one of the top 2 in that group to having to really try hard just to make number3. and i dont see how a group sucks. explain please.</blockquote>Simple explanation.  It was not Sony's intent on making us the top tier DPS, therefore they probably increased the DPS of others in your group.  So if you have a ranger, assasain, warlock, or wizzy in your group, you will be lower DPS.  Also keep in mind our dps comes from long duration fights.  Yes, I have been out DPSed by a berserker before just because of their burst DPS in a fight.Keep in mind my reply was without knowing the group make-up or what you were fighting, so a lot of assumptions going on atm.</blockquote>my dps should not be below a sk monk or dirge in non burst fights and should not be below a wizard that is 3 levels lower either. all of this was on a consistant basis.as for subutai . that is elitism saying we have a bad group because there was no troub. you think every necro gets a group with a troub?point is simple other classes got a more linear dps increase . we did not .our dps went up marginally if our dps goes up 5% and everyone else goes up 25% its still an increase yes but the intent of why take the nec because thier dps is bad and we can take another class that can fill the necros dps role and another role ...its not just me either. im hearing from a lot of necros  having problems with agro, dps , and a few other issues discussed elsewhereso to recapour dps as posted by others is indeed not where it should be as our spells are not scaling correctlyour pets are not holding agro as they should ( or i should say as they where in the previous tiers)

[Inggy]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>no my dps <span style="font-size: small;"><b>position</b></span> went down from always being in one of the top 2 in that group to having to really try hard just to make number3. and i dont see how a group sucks. explain please.</blockquote>your group sucked cause it doesn't have a troub which accounts for a great deal of our dps.  My dps has gone up about 800 since the expansion, I am still in the top 3 or 4 ZW depending on who we have, usually our swash assassin and wiz are above me, but my dps hasn't gone down at all.</blockquote><p>Yep, agreed, my DPS position has dropped from 1-2 ZW to 2-4 ZW and unlike Sabutai my DPS has actually dropped slightly -- still trying to figure out where, why, etc, but with that said my positional drop is because the other classes are doing MORE DPS now than they've ever done.</p><p>One thing I can think of that is affecting our DPS in RoK is most of the fights are single encounters whereas in EoF most were group.</p><p>As stated before, troub buffs account towards your DPS typically 8-10% for Aria, 3-5% for Precision procs, not including the crit buff and spell reuse buff in EoF.  RoK so far Aria is only 8% and precision 3% for me which is low IMO. Without the Troub, summoners or any other fast caster is affected the most, Sorcerors are not as affected because their spell timers are much longer and not able to proc these buffs as often as we can.  Mind you, TC is a Sorcerors friend wereas it isn't as benificial to us but I'll never turn it down if its offered <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

[Toxi]

Negating externalized factors my DPS appears to have declined.  Of course I am referring to better gear and improved group procs and or buffs.. In reality unless you have new tier masters replacing old ones than DPS is either hovering, going down or marginally improving depending on your subjective progression.    There is little to no advancement this tier for Necros. The expansion is a flop for us.  Being in denial is not going to help solve the issue. 

[Sabutai]

<cite>Oyce@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>no my dps <span style="font-size: small;"><b>position</b></span> went down from always being in one of the top 2 in that group to having to really try hard just to make number3. and i dont see how a group sucks. explain please.</blockquote>your group sucked cause it doesn't have a troub which accounts for a great deal of our dps.  My dps has gone up about 800 since the expansion, I am still in the top 3 or 4 ZW depending on who we have, usually our swash assassin and wiz are above me, but my dps hasn't gone down at all.</blockquote><p>Yep, agreed, my DPS position has dropped from 1-2 ZW to 2-4 ZW and unlike Sabutai my DPS has actually dropped slightly -- still trying to figure out where, why, etc, but with that said my positional drop is because the other classes are doing MORE DPS now than they've ever done.</p><p>One thing I can think of that is affecting our DPS in RoK is most of the fights are single encounters whereas in EoF most were group.</p><p>As stated before, troub buffs account towards your DPS typically 8-10% for Aria, 3-5% for Precision procs, not including the crit buff and spell reuse buff in EoF.  RoK so far Aria is only 8% and precision 3% for me which is low IMO. Without the Troub, summoners or any other fast caster is affected the most, Sorcerors are not as affected because their spell timers are much longer and not able to proc these buffs as often as we can.  Mind you, TC is a Sorcerors friend wereas it isn't as benificial to us but I'll never turn it down if its offered <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />.</p></blockquote>Ok here is my elitist attitude rearing its head.  MMIS, was having an off night but same group setups as they are now.Allies: (38:5<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> 70074285 | 29971.89Drummle | 3007.52 (2483) - SwashRaelyn | 2703.13 (2671) - AssassinDehah | 2608.78 (1197) - WizardAhazariah | 2249.96 (1931) - ConjLarcenist | 2211.76 (1136) - BrigandSabutai | 2031.61 (1065) - NecroVelo | 1934.69 (1325) - IllusionistVylia | 1721.19 (1354) - IllusionistProtectors RealmAllies: (27:31) 55776811 | 33783.65Dehah | 3187.07 (1144) - WizardDrummle | 3093.10 (1705) - SwashSabutai | 2815.17 (1514) - NecroVelo | 2451.83 (1495) - IllusionistHearth | 2393.99 (1460) - AssassinOk now you tell me how much this expansion has sucked for necros, I don't see it.  The only reason Assassins and other scout based melee classes shot up so fast was the ease of getting super weapons, take a look at the loot coming from CoA and the quest reward from Anaphylaxis.  Their entire dps increase was based on those weapons.  As in previous expansions everybody got geared at the same rate.  Now its a bit imbalanced at the start but should start normalizing when the top tier raid gear starts dropping.EVERYBODY is complaining about the spell scaling, even combat art scaling has sucked, but its a universal scaling problem not just for casters.  The problem lies in that scouts have 2 sources of dps where mages typically only rely on one.  Gear is starting to drop and its absolutely fantastic.  I'm already over 50% crit on raids and should be close to 70 by the time VP and Trak is cleared.  So to call me an elitist, when I KNOW [I cannot control my vocabulary] I'm talking about just makes you look stupid.Your group is the main reason you're seeing lower dps numbers and I didn't attack you for it, I just pointed it out.  So instead of coming at me because your group make up doesn't do anything dps wise for you and [I cannot control my vocabulary] and whine about how you've been slighted in this expansion just irritates me.

[Solarax]

quit trying to turn this into a flame fest. if you say one thing but us ( a large number of people) say there is a problem then maybe there is a problem

[Winsarc11]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oyce@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Solarax wrote:</cite><blockquote>no my dps <span style="font-size: small;"><b>position</b></span> went down from always being in one of the top 2 in that group to having to really try hard just to make number3. and i dont see how a group sucks. explain please.</blockquote>your group sucked cause it doesn't have a troub which accounts for a great deal of our dps.  My dps has gone up about 800 since the expansion, I am still in the top 3 or 4 ZW depending on who we have, usually our swash assassin and wiz are above me, but my dps hasn't gone down at all.</blockquote><p>Yep, agreed, my DPS position has dropped from 1-2 ZW to 2-4 ZW and unlike Sabutai my DPS has actually dropped slightly -- still trying to figure out where, why, etc, but with that said my positional drop is because the other classes are doing MORE DPS now than they've ever done.</p><p>One thing I can think of that is affecting our DPS in RoK is most of the fights are single encounters whereas in EoF most were group.</p><p>As stated before, troub buffs account towards your DPS typically 8-10% for Aria, 3-5% for Precision procs, not including the crit buff and spell reuse buff in EoF.  RoK so far Aria is only 8% and precision 3% for me which is low IMO. Without the Troub, summoners or any other fast caster is affected the most, Sorcerors are not as affected because their spell timers are much longer and not able to proc these buffs as often as we can.  Mind you, TC is a Sorcerors friend wereas it isn't as benificial to us but I'll never turn it down if its offered <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" />.</p></blockquote>Ok here is my elitist attitude rearing its head.  MMIS, was having an off night but same group setups as they are now.Allies: (38:5<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"> 70074285 | 29971.89Drummle | 3007.52 (2483) - SwashRaelyn | 2703.13 (2671) - AssassinDehah | 2608.78 (1197) - WizardAhazariah | 2249.96 (1931) - ConjLarcenist | 2211.76 (1136) - BrigandSabutai | 2031.61 (1065) - NecroVelo | 1934.69 (1325) - IllusionistVylia | 1721.19 (1354) - IllusionistProtectors RealmAllies: (27:31) 55776811 | 33783.65Dehah | 3187.07 (1144) - WizardDrummle | 3093.10 (1705) - SwashSabutai | 2815.17 (1514) - NecroVelo | 2451.83 (1495) - IllusionistHearth | 2393.99 (1460) - AssassinOk now you tell me how much this expansion has sucked for necros, I don't see it.  The only reason Assassins and other scout based melee classes shot up so fast was the ease of getting super weapons, take a look at the loot coming from CoA and the quest reward from Anaphylaxis.  Their entire dps increase was based on those weapons.  As in previous expansions everybody got geared at the same rate.  Now its a bit imbalanced at the start but should start normalizing when the top tier raid gear starts dropping.EVERYBODY is complaining about the spell scaling, even combat art scaling has sucked, but its a universal scaling problem not just for casters.  The problem lies in that scouts have 2 sources of dps where mages typically only rely on one.  Gear is starting to drop and its absolutely fantastic.  I'm already over 50% crit on raids and should be close to 70 by the time VP and Trak is cleared.  So to call me an elitist, when I KNOW [I cannot control my vocabulary] I'm talking about just makes you look stupid.Your group is the main reason you're seeing lower dps numbers and I didn't attack you for it, I just pointed it out.  So instead of coming at me because your group make up doesn't do anything dps wise for you and [I cannot control my vocabulary] and whine about how you've been slighted in this expansion just irritates me.</blockquote><p>This thread wasnt about our position on the parse, it was about our pets scaling incorrectly, and thus having our dps not change despite lvling and upgrading gear.  For one, as was posted earlier, our t8 pets are worse in every way then our t7 pets.  There is no reason what so ever we should gain 10lvls and better gear and still have the same dps.  Its our pets and thats a fact. </p><p>I could care less if the scouts are out dpsing me.</p><p>My group setup has always been the same, and im still hitting the same numbers  </p>

[Solarax]

<cite>Winsarc11 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>This thread wasnt about our position on the parse, it was about our pets scaling incorrectly, and thus having our dps not change despite lvling and upgrading gear.  For one, as was posted earlier, our t8 pets are worse in every way then our t7 pets.  There is no reason what so ever we should gain 10lvls and better gear and still have the same dps.  Its our pets and thats a fact. </p><p>I could care less if the scouts are out dpsing me.</p><p>My group setup has always been the same, and im still hitting the same numbers  </p></blockquote>that was my point , just have to quote a little bit farther back.  Our dps has suffered to the point of others in my group that i have grouped with before took serious notice before i was told my group sucked and i have to have a troub in my group for anything to count.i firmly believe and so do a lot of others that our fix isnt that hard . just a re eval. of damage , tanking and agro of the basic pets is what we could use.that means really our stance spells too. we could leave all the other spells ( well vampirism needs to changed) and that would help without breaking anything else

[DwarvesR]

<p>To the poster who compared the level 60 scout pet m1 to the level 73 scout pet m1 and claimed minimal upgrade --</p><p>You are aware that your pet gets more powerful as you level, yes?  So you're not complaring a 60 pet to a 73 pet, you are comparing a 72 pet to a 73 pet.  And yes, the upgrade is minimal, but what do you expect for 1 level's worth of difference?</p><p>As to the prior tier M1 being better than current tier Ad3 -- this had been known for a LONG time.  I posted <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=174806" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this thread </a>in July of 2006 fer cryin' out loud!  And in it, people referenced back to DoF and how the level 46 Assassin M1 was better in the high end of DoF than the level 60 Ad3 Nightshade because the nightshade was capped level and couldn't outlevel the assassin M1.  Dof came out september of 2005, so. . . this has been around a long time, which also means it's probably not ever gonna change <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>So anyway. . as far as the pets go, just remember that they scale, so when you're comparing a level 73 pet to a level 72 pet, of course the 72 M1 will be better than a 73 Ad3.  Level up to get rid of the difference, or start saving the plats and/or hope for a lucky drop. . . . .</p>

[Boran]

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the poster who compared the level 60 scout pet m1 to the level 73 scout pet m1 and claimed minimal upgrade --</p><p>You are aware that your pet gets more powerful as you level, yes?  So you're not complaring a 60 pet to a 73 pet, you are comparing a 72 pet to a 73 pet.  And yes, the upgrade is minimal, but what do you expect for 1 level's worth of difference?</p><p>As to the prior tier M1 being better than current tier Ad3 -- this had been known for a LONG time.  I posted <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=174806" target="_blank">this thread </a>in July of 2006 fer cryin' out loud!  And in it, people referenced back to DoF and how the level 46 Assassin M1 was better in the high end of DoF than the level 60 Ad3 Nightshade because the nightshade was capped level and couldn't outlevel the assassin M1.  Dof came out september of 2005, so. . . this has been around a long time, which also means it's probably not ever gonna change <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p><p>So anyway. . as far as the pets go, just remember that they scale, so when you're comparing a level 73 pet to a level 72 pet, of course the 72 M1 will be better than a 73 Ad3.  Level up to get rid of the difference, or start saving the plats and/or hope for a lucky drop. . . . .</p></blockquote>Leveling makes no difference. At 80 our adept 3 tier 8 pets are still worse than our tier 7 master pets. This is also the same for our conjuror brethren.

[Sabutai]

<cite>Boran wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the poster who compared the level 60 scout pet m1 to the level 73 scout pet m1 and claimed minimal upgrade --</p><p>You are aware that your pet gets more powerful as you level, yes?  So you're not complaring a 60 pet to a 73 pet, you are comparing a 72 pet to a 73 pet.  And yes, the upgrade is minimal, but what do you expect for 1 level's worth of difference?</p><p>As to the prior tier M1 being better than current tier Ad3 -- this had been known for a LONG time.  I posted <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=174806" target="_blank">this thread </a>in July of 2006 fer cryin' out loud!  And in it, people referenced back to DoF and how the level 46 Assassin M1 was better in the high end of DoF than the level 60 Ad3 Nightshade because the nightshade was capped level and couldn't outlevel the assassin M1.  Dof came out september of 2005, so. . . this has been around a long time, which also means it's probably not ever gonna change <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></p><p>So anyway. . as far as the pets go, just remember that they scale, so when you're comparing a level 73 pet to a level 72 pet, of course the 72 M1 will be better than a 73 Ad3.  Level up to get rid of the difference, or start saving the plats and/or hope for a lucky drop. . . . .</p></blockquote>Leveling makes no difference. At 80 our adept 3 tier 8 pets are still worse than our tier 7 master pets. This is also the same for our conjuror brethren. </blockquote>You would be wrong of course.  Want me to show you some screenshots?  only pet that's screwed up atm is the mage pet.

[Solarax]

for screenshots what i would like to see is zero buff t7 master pets dps parsed 100 times each pet and t8 AD3 pets parsed 100 times vs the " wall"that will establish dps . for tanking you have to use only one mob that is meelee class and only pops with no level diferences  so for instance a drov. gnasher can pop say at lvl 68 , 69 or 70  all in the same area. have to find a melee mob that wont do that . next the method of testing. the t7 and t8 by letting them only melee and noting how much life they have down to the % and it should be done 100 times for each pet ( tank and scout as mage pet would be a waste of time)then post screenshots of a few random samples of the diferences and list the total average of findingsthats a total of 1000 fights ( 600 of which are against wall so no danger at all )otherwise till then you will just have to accept that many people are going by "feel" and by feel i and many others can tell you that our pets are not doing what they should.

[Tokam]

<p>Bah Sab I was going to ask you for a random T1 zonewide (not pawbuster!!!) untill I saw that. atm I cant really justify my raid spot over a 2nd ranger, but at least our zonewides are similar.</p><p>Good to know im not just being thick.</p>

[Naughtesn]

<p>I sadly am experiencing the same issues, trying everythign to pinpoint the problem.  But logically with +700-800 BoE and 35-50% crit, we should be hitting higher numbers simply on those stats alone - add in the higher int numbers we can hit and there's no logical reason why I should be parsing anywhere near what I was in the prior tier with inferior gear.  </p><p> As far as the tank pet holding aggro - I have zero issues.  I am using the scout pet much more, and I don't necessarily think thats a bad thing.</p>

[Ristan]

<p>Thanks for the post sab, you make alot of sense, and I'm not really experiencing much of the problems that are being posted here.</p><p>There has always been a disconnect between M1 pets, and adept 3 pets and what caps where and upgrades when.  I would tend to believe there is a problem if there were proof that at 80 the t7 M1 pet (which is caped at 75 for scout pets (not sure on mage) btw) out does the level 80 adept 3 pet.   </p><p> I have continued to use my scout pet (I used scout in t7 as well and have the m1), and my dps has gone up about +700 points adverage.  I'm sitting at +765 BoA, and 25% crits with no group, I commonly group with a fury, defiler, templar, and paladin.  Troubie/dirge occasionally.  when grouped with a fury I can pull out almost +1k more than I could before in group instances.  I have not had a chance to raid yet so I don't have those numbers for you.</p><p>The comparisons made in this thread over a level 60 pet to a level 73 pet are invalid as a previous posted posted because your pet scales with your level.</p><p>Yes a t7 M1 pet may be better at level 72 or 73 (I admit I used it when I was those levels) when it's not caped, but is it better at level 80 when it's been caped 4 levels below your current level? I will have to test that out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />...I currently use the t8 scout pet, and t8 damage spells and t8 gear, my dps is fine.  </p><p>Wiz and assassin and other classes will always out dps you, we are now more where necros should be anyways.  If you want higher dps adjust...and tweek and find ways to do it, don't just complain that spell upgrades suck.  ALL classes are having spell difficulty right now, talk to any healer.  Think outside the box.</p>

[Gargamel]

<p>I know DOTs are kinda funky and how it interacts, but</p><p>General Inquery: </p><p>Does +dmg +cirt -recast +heal 'modifiers' apply to dumbfire pets, every tick, just the first, some kind of 'normalizing', etc?</p><p>Does +dmg +cirt -recast +heal 'modifiers' apply to our main pets and add dmg to their spells, or reduce their casting timers, etc?</p><p>Do the above modifiers cancel when we zone, or only apply to specific pets.</p><p>IF the modifiers only apply to direct spells/CAs (but not auto-attack, dumbfires or main pets) then I could easily see how the HUGE shift to gear-based modifiers, and reduciton of difference between Tiers and ad3/ms1/ms2 -- results in vastly different outcomes across different classes.</p>

[Sabutai]

<cite>Gargamel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I know DOTs are kinda funky and how it interacts, but</p><p>General Inquery: </p><p>Does +dmg +cirt -recast +heal 'modifiers' apply to dumbfire pets, every tick, just the first, some kind of 'normalizing', etc?</p><p>Does +dmg +cirt -recast +heal 'modifiers' apply to our main pets and add dmg to their spells, or reduce their casting timers, etc?</p><p>Do the above modifiers cancel when we zone, or only apply to specific pets.</p><p>IF the modifiers only apply to direct spells/CAs (but not auto-attack, dumbfires or main pets) then I could easily see how the HUGE shift to gear-based modifiers, and reduciton of difference between Tiers and ad3/ms1/ms2 -- results in vastly different outcomes across different classes.</p></blockquote>Simple answer is no.  dumbfire pets tho can trigger item procs but do not benefit from any other stat increasing gear including stuff directed at pets.  Main pets do not benefit from +benefit stuff from gear except for 2 items that I can think of off top of my head, the staff from contested mayong and the offhand book, can't recall name atm but adds +dps mod.

[Sabutai]

<cite>Ristan@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thanks for the post sab, you make alot of sense, and I'm not really experiencing much of the problems that are being posted here.</p><p>There has always been a disconnect between M1 pets, and adept 3 pets and what caps where and upgrades when.  I would tend to believe there is a problem if there were proof that at 80 the t7 M1 pet (which is caped at 75 for scout pets (not sure on mage) btw) out does the level 80 adept 3 pet.   </p><p> I have continued to use my scout pet (I used scout in t7 as well and have the m1), and my dps has gone up about +700 points adverage.  I'm sitting at +765 BoA, and 25% crits with no group, I commonly group with a fury, defiler, templar, and paladin.  Troubie/dirge occasionally.  when grouped with a fury I can pull out almost +1k more than I could before in group instances.  I have not had a chance to raid yet so I don't have those numbers for you.</p><p>The comparisons made in this thread over a level 60 pet to a level 73 pet are invalid as a previous posted posted because your pet scales with your level.</p><p>Yes a t7 M1 pet may be better at level 72 or 73 (I admit I used it when I was those levels) when it's not caped, but is it better at level 80 when it's been caped 4 levels below your current level? I will have to test that out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" />...I currently use the t8 scout pet, and t8 damage spells and t8 gear, my dps is fine.  </p><p>Wiz and assassin and other classes will always out dps you, we are now more where necros should be anyways.  If you want higher dps adjust...and tweek and find ways to do it, don't just complain that spell upgrades suck.  ALL classes are having spell difficulty right now, talk to any healer.  Think outside the box.</p></blockquote>Thanks for the support post sometimes hard to get through to certain people that our spell problems just put everybody on the same playing field.  I can tell you though that the mage pet/spec is what you'll need if you get into tier 3/4 raiding.  The hit % from the scout pet is horrid at the moment.  The mage pet in groups or content that is like 81 or so competes at t7 m1 but when you start getting mobs in the 86 88 range it falls WAAY behind, even more with the scout pet since the melee modifier is completely screwed right now.  Veeshan's peak though is a complete caster zone so don't get disheartened, and the gear coming out of there is pretty decent, also considering the rumors of an item revamp.  The gap has closed a bit and sitting at 52% crit on raids with 600 +spell dps has come along fine.  Bout all I can really complain about tho is the complete lack of masters dropping from raid mobs.  /bleh

[Gargamel]

<p>Well that appears to be a problem for us then does it not?</p><p>In RoK devs reduced the dependance of spell tier and spell quality (app/ad/master) and put more of the emphasis on gear.</p><p>Now that change, the shifting of dmg benefits from spell quality and level -<b>TO- </b>gear... shifts dmg boosters to areas summoners are excluded from 'buffing' with gear.</p><p>As a necro, I'd say what... over half our dps is done by pets of some kind.So my mage/scout gets no +dmg on their skills from my +dmg gear, my imps do no more dmg from my +dmg gear, my mage has no reduced casting time on hostile spells, my lich crit heals get no benefit from +crits, none of my pets (dumbfire or main) benefit from +dmg crits.</p><p>This is ALL DMG that in prior expansions would have been factored into the spells or combat arts themselves... but in RoK are a gear component (with restrictions)In all these cases the 'pets' are just my surrogates for doing dmg, why should my gear not apply?  (the lich one I get, it would be 'double-dipping)</p><p>This should adversely affect our DPS compared to other classes... no?</p>

[evhallion]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ristan@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thanks for the post sab, you make alot of sense, and I'm not really experiencing much of the problems that are being posted here.</p><p>There has always been a disconnect between M1 pets, and adept 3 pets and what caps where and upgrades when.  I would tend to believe there is a problem if there were proof that at 80 the t7 M1 pet (which is caped at 75 for scout pets (not sure on mage) btw) out does the level 80 adept 3 pet.   </p><p> I have continued to use my scout pet (I used scout in t7 as well and have the m1), and my dps has gone up about +700 points adverage.  I'm sitting at +765 BoA, and 25% crits with no group, I commonly group with a fury, defiler, templar, and paladin.  Troubie/dirge occasionally.  when grouped with a fury I can pull out almost +1k more than I could before in group instances.  I have not had a chance to raid yet so I don't have those numbers for you.</p><p>The comparisons made in this thread over a level 60 pet to a level 73 pet are invalid as a previous posted posted because your pet scales with your level.</p><p>Yes a t7 M1 pet may be better at level 72 or 73 (I admit I used it when I was those levels) when it's not caped, but is it better at level 80 when it's been caped 4 levels below your current level? I will have to test that out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" />...I currently use the t8 scout pet, and t8 damage spells and t8 gear, my dps is fine.  </p><p>Wiz and assassin and other classes will always out dps you, we are now more where necros should be anyways.  If you want higher dps adjust...and tweek and find ways to do it, don't just complain that spell upgrades suck.  ALL classes are having spell difficulty right now, talk to any healer.  Think outside the box.</p></blockquote>Thanks for the support post sometimes hard to get through to certain people that our spell problems just put everybody on the same playing field.  I can tell you though that the mage pet/spec is what you'll need if you get into tier 3/4 raiding.  The hit % from the scout pet is horrid at the moment.  The mage pet in groups or content that is like 81 or so competes at t7 m1 but when you start getting mobs in the 86 88 range it falls WAAY behind, even more with the scout pet since the melee modifier is completely screwed right now.  Veeshan's peak though is a complete caster zone so don't get disheartened, and the gear coming out of there is pretty decent, also considering the rumors of an item revamp.  The gap has closed a bit and sitting at 52% crit on raids with 600 +spell dps has come along fine.  Bout all I can really complain about tho is the complete lack of masters dropping from raid mobs.  /bleh</blockquote><p>You know Sab I didn't really notice a drop in DPS on beta. Then again i spent the first half of it solo speced checking out the questlines, then spent the last half of it in RoK fabled and full masters. So yes at that point I saw an upgrade in my DPS. You can look in my post stickied at the top of the forum showing all my master spells at the time and how much +damage was added to them from my gear, not to mention all the casting speed improvements you can't see. However since RoK went live I have struggled just to maintain the DPS I had in EoF. I'm lvl 80 using the Master T8 Mage pet and everything else T8 Adept 3 or master. Granted that if I go do EoF content like Emerald Halls I'm seeing an improvement over what I did there before but then again everything is green con vs the yellow and orange it was before. In RoK raids/groups I'm staying at my old DPS and sometimes slightly higher but not by much. This is not what I expect from 10 lvls, New spells, better stats, more AA and things like +damage on my gear. I guess in Beta I didn't realize how much that fabled gear was adding to my DPS.</p><p>Now looking at your gear I see you went into RoK in full EoF fabled and maybe a little Avatar loot as well. I also see you have a few RoK fabled in there already. So in an expansion where so much depends on gear you are going to come in wearing that and tell the rest of us you don't see what we are complaining about? You think we all come from Avatar dropping Raid Guilds? You must of quested to lvl 80 like most of us so you should have all those RoK quest rewards most of us are wearing to replace our old gear. Try wearing just that instead of all your fabled that gives you 52% crit chance & +600 spell dmg and see how well you are parsing. However don't look down at everyone from the top of Veeshan's Peak and say everything looks fine from up here. Most of the people complaining will never be at that point and by no means should have to just to see a noticable improvement in a new tier.</p>

[LazyPurp]

<cite>Sarafan@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Want to see where you're losing DPS? Possess your master T7 mage pet and right-click examine his spells on the hotbar. Now remember or screenshot the numbers. Now Summon your lvl 75 T8 mage pet, possess it and examine it's spells. See the difference? Should look something like this:</p><p>New Pet (Adept 3)                                                           Old Pet (Master 1)</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"></a><img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/evhallion/magepet-spells-adept3.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="290" height="547" /> <img src="http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/evhallion/magepet-spells-master1.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="291" height="554" /></p><p>See where the problem is?</p></blockquote><p>There is hope for the mage pet. I have the T8 Master and here is a snap shot to help with the comparision:</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Justicia_Oasis/T8MASTERMAGE.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Justicia_Oasis/T8MASTERMAGE.jpg" alt="" width="606" height="297" border="0" /></a> </p>

[ainth]

<p>i have a lv 80 necromancer and i was haveing the same problem.  I was noticing that our  pets (T<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> were less effective then  my fully mastered out t7 pets  etc..... However the higher you get the more dmg the pet does and i really notice agro control on my adept 3 tank pet vs my master 1 t7 tank pet.  Run a combat tracker i have, at lv 80 your pets (t7) mastered pets will be less effective due to insane resists then in comparsion to the adept 3 t8 pets.  Ill be honest i htink our t8 pets are a bit underpowered but its not as bad  as it looks.  Im also noticing they have now made it to that healer types cannot buff our pets with hitpoint buffs no more =( oh well.  Look at it this way.  Us necros have been spoiled along time the conj's got it worse they cant even heal their pet that well we can.  At first i was PO about the new spells........i still am i want to buy t8 upgrades and they are by the time you hit 80.  Your t7 masters will pittle out im haveing way less resists especially on my roots stuns (t<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> adept then my t7(masters) im noticing a big diffrence.  Id still like to see some re vamping of our pet spells i mean in all reality im not paying 200-400pp on our server for a master 1 t8 pet when its a  few % better then the 2-5pp adept 3 i have a 80 sage i dont buy my adepts i make then.  And i agree with previous post a t8 adept should be  greater then a t7 master by at least a few %.  Sony did this for one reaoson becasue of our soloability.  In my opinion we are to powerful of a solo class with tainted heals atm. we can solo anything if we do it slowly and get no adds and thats not fair to the rest of the clases.  If a class becomes over powered solo wise in a in my opinion a solo oriented expansion like ROK.  the classes on my server have stayed the same as far as numbers each night.  But the necro class has almost tripled. Sorry folks this is wrong.  What sony is tyring to do is balance the classes.  You guys all have good points but in all honesty if you play your class well you will find a way to progress i have no issues whats so ever soloing and grouping and im up top on the parse all the time and have no masters from t8.</p><p>just my 2 opinion</p><p>zeel 80 necromancer</p>

[Sabutai]

<cite>Sarafan@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ristan@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thanks for the post sab, you make alot of sense, and I'm not really experiencing much of the problems that are being posted here.</p><p>There has always been a disconnect between M1 pets, and adept 3 pets and what caps where and upgrades when.  I would tend to believe there is a problem if there were proof that at 80 the t7 M1 pet (which is caped at 75 for scout pets (not sure on mage) btw) out does the level 80 adept 3 pet.   </p><p> I have continued to use my scout pet (I used scout in t7 as well and have the m1), and my dps has gone up about +700 points adverage.  I'm sitting at +765 BoA, and 25% crits with no group, I commonly group with a fury, defiler, templar, and paladin.  Troubie/dirge occasionally.  when grouped with a fury I can pull out almost +1k more than I could before in group instances.  I have not had a chance to raid yet so I don't have those numbers for you.</p><p>The comparisons made in this thread over a level 60 pet to a level 73 pet are invalid as a previous posted posted because your pet scales with your level.</p><p>Yes a t7 M1 pet may be better at level 72 or 73 (I admit I used it when I was those levels) when it's not caped, but is it better at level 80 when it's been caped 4 levels below your current level? I will have to test that out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" />...I currently use the t8 scout pet, and t8 damage spells and t8 gear, my dps is fine.  </p><p>Wiz and assassin and other classes will always out dps you, we are now more where necros should be anyways.  If you want higher dps adjust...and tweek and find ways to do it, don't just complain that spell upgrades suck.  ALL classes are having spell difficulty right now, talk to any healer.  Think outside the box.</p></blockquote>Thanks for the support post sometimes hard to get through to certain people that our spell problems just put everybody on the same playing field.  I can tell you though that the mage pet/spec is what you'll need if you get into tier 3/4 raiding.  The hit % from the scout pet is horrid at the moment.  The mage pet in groups or content that is like 81 or so competes at t7 m1 but when you start getting mobs in the 86 88 range it falls WAAY behind, even more with the scout pet since the melee modifier is completely screwed right now.  Veeshan's peak though is a complete caster zone so don't get disheartened, and the gear coming out of there is pretty decent, also considering the rumors of an item revamp.  The gap has closed a bit and sitting at 52% crit on raids with 600 +spell dps has come along fine.  Bout all I can really complain about tho is the complete lack of masters dropping from raid mobs.  /bleh</blockquote><p>You know Sab I didn't really notice a drop in DPS on beta. Then again i spent the first half of it solo speced checking out the questlines, then spent the last half of it in RoK fabled and full masters. So yes at that point I saw an upgrade in my DPS. You can look in my post stickied at the top of the forum showing all my master spells at the time and how much +damage was added to them from my gear, not to mention all the casting speed improvements you can't see. However since RoK went live I have struggled just to maintain the DPS I had in EoF. I'm lvl 80 using the Master T8 Mage pet and everything else T8 Adept 3 or master. Granted that if I go do EoF content like Emerald Halls I'm seeing an improvement over what I did there before but then again everything is green con vs the yellow and orange it was before. In RoK raids/groups I'm staying at my old DPS and sometimes slightly higher but not by much. This is not what I expect from 10 lvls, New spells, better stats, more AA and things like +damage on my gear. I guess in Beta I didn't realize how much that fabled gear was adding to my DPS.</p><p>Now looking at your gear I see you went into RoK in full EoF fabled and maybe a little Avatar loot as well. I also see you have a few RoK fabled in there already. So in an expansion where so much depends on gear you are going to come in wearing that and tell the rest of us you don't see what we are complaining about? You think we all come from Avatar dropping Raid Guilds? You must of quested to lvl 80 like most of us so you should have all those RoK quest rewards most of us are wearing to replace our old gear. Try wearing just that instead of all your fabled that gives you 52% crit chance & +600 spell dmg and see how well you are parsing. However don't look down at everyone from the top of Veeshan's Peak and say everything looks fine from up here. Most of the people complaining will never be at that point and by no means should have to just to see a noticable improvement in a new tier.</p></blockquote>Actually coming in blaming me for coming from a higher ground than everybody else is a bit conceited.  First when I posted those parse numbers I had very little in RoK raid fabled.  So the numbers I was presenting was from gear that was available to everybody.  Sure I had a few pieces of avatar loot that didn't and won't get upgraded but they were also part of that baseline info.  When people come in here saying they have fallen on the dps charts its because they don't know how to really play a necro, come in with more constructive info than 'omg the scouts kick my [Removed for Content] now' and maybe you can construe change.  I came in with solid numbers with gear that everybody had access to and nobody has come in with contrary.  I can say with some RoK raid upgrades I'm back in the top 3 or 4 ZW with over 1k increase over EoF.