Lore for Race/Class

[Zhern]

<p>Sorry for my title, only one I could think of. Also I am not John Grisham or Anne Rice. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I want to ask you guys a question. And please don't think I want to change the world of EQ2. But this is just for argument sake and that's it.</p><p>If EQ2 made a server that followed the Race/Class lore of EQ1, would you play it?</p><p>Meaning, in EQ1 Trolls would never have been a wizard. Or a Erudite would never be a guardian.</p><p>Only thing I would exclude would be the lore from EQ1 to EQ2. Like when the gods left and the Ogres got smarter.</p><p>I had made another post like this on General Discussion. But I think I hit a one track minded crowd. And I could be wrong. But this forum knows more about the lore than any other forum, so I thought I would ask you guys. And get that differrent point of view.</p>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<p>Not sure why you'd want to exclude lore, especially the ogres regaining their intelligience.  I, presonally, enjoyed that bit of lore.</p><p>Onto your other question, from a roleplay perspective, it's hard to say that an Erudite would <i>never</i> play a monk, or guardian, or that a troll could never be a wizard.  Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, especially with the trolls.  I could easily see an Erudite monk, following Quellious.  And perhaps the troll was the result of an experiment where a part of it's brain was swapped out with another, or who knows, maybe the troll simply has a natural affinity towards the arcane.  It may have no idea what it's doing, just that it can do it...come to think of it..I think that's how trolls do most of the stuff they do..</p><p>In fact, if I remember correctly, one of the main storylines going in EQ had a troll Shadow Knight who gained heightened intelligience through a Tier'Dal experiment, and was pretty much glued to the hip of the Tier'Dal who preformed it, but I'd have to go back and double check to be certain.  I think it was a wizardess? *ponders*</p><p>In any case, I consider myself a fairly hardcore roleplayer, and I don't have too much of a problem with the race/class thing.  What's a little more frustrating are the "roleplayers" who don't have a reason for their race/class combo, (The I just thought it'd be funny to have a troll wearing a dress," crowd).</p><p>The other thing to keep in mind is that the majority of the player base does not roleplay.  Even on the forums, a lot of the posters are simply people who like the lore, and may not really care for roleplaying.</p>

[Sapphirius]

I tend to stick to traditional race/class combinations out of habit because it suits my roleplay so well. However, I'm an Arasai addict, and I'd imagine that Arasai would be excluded from this as well? If that is the case, then I would not join such a server, and if it weren't, what would be their traditional classes? (Sorry, I like my little bugs. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[Zhern]

<p>If it were up to me the only classes that the Arasai would be excluded from would be</p><p>Guardian/Berserker</p><p>Bruiser/Monk</p><p>And that is just my opinion. Nothing lore based. And that would go for the Fae also.</p><p>As for the abnormal ones, I do agree, but would rather see the NPCs go that route than the PCs. I truly believe that the reason Eq2 went to all classes for all races was because of that Ogre Paladin in the Freeport Dock Tavern in EQ1. I remember everyone wanted to create one. At least on my server at the time.</p><p>Like I said on the other forum, this isn't going to make me quit the game. Just for argument sake and see how people feel about the abnormal classes.</p>

[Zhern]

<cite>Nocturnal Abyss wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Not sure why you'd want to exclude lore, especially the ogres regaining their intelligience.  I, presonally, enjoyed that bit of lore.</p><p>Onto your other question, from a roleplay perspective, it's hard to say that an Erudite would <i>never</i> play a monk, or guardian, or that a troll could never be a wizard.  Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, especially with the trolls.  I could easily see an Erudite monk, following Quellious.  And perhaps the troll was the result of an experiment where a part of it's brain was swapped out with another, or who knows, maybe the troll simply has a natural affinity towards the arcane.  It may have no idea what it's doing, just that it can do it...come to think of it..I think that's how trolls do most of the stuff they do..</p><p>In fact, if I remember correctly, one of the main storylines going in EQ had a troll Shadow Knight who gained heightened intelligience through a Tier'Dal experiment, and was pretty much glued to the hip of the Tier'Dal who preformed it, but I'd have to go back and double check to be certain.  I think it was a wizardess? *ponders*</p><p>In any case, I consider myself a fairly hardcore roleplayer, and I don't have too much of a problem with the race/class thing.  What's a little more frustrating are the "roleplayers" who don't have a reason for their race/class combo, (The I just thought it'd be funny to have a troll wearing a dress," crowd).</p><p>The other thing to keep in mind is that the majority of the player base does not roleplay.  Even on the forums, a lot of the posters are simply people who like the lore, and may not really care for roleplaying.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry If I didn't explain myself better. But I meant to say that EQ1 Race/Classes brought to EQ2 from the lore, and if there was a lore change between the two, bring that in also. So Ogres with their heightened intelligence would be wizards or whatnot.</p>

[Zarafein]

<p>I wouldn't change my server but it's a nice idea to think about..and i would adjust the classes a bit to be in line with the various tidbits of lore we have(especially based on prima guide and eq2 roleyplay book information even though some don't like it and.. well we don't have to talk about this again)</p><p>Some examples:</p><p>Erudites:add monk and bard</p><p>Ogre:add all evil mage classes,brigand and bruiser</p><p>High Elf:add swashbuckler and Bard and don't allow warlock(or only in freeport for them,but betraying would work against such a server idea anyway?)</p><p>Iksar:add scouts and the other mages(or at least warlock and coercerer)</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>I would still be a Human Monk if I played on such a server, as the only races who would be allowed to be monks would be only Human and Iksar. (Even though in Kaladim there is lore to support that the Dwarves formed thier own martial arts order called the Rockpounders, but there was no such lore in EQlive.)</p><p>Since Bruisers don't exist in EQlive, I could see Ogres, Trolls, Humans, Barbarians, and Dark Elves.</p>

[Sapphirius]

<cite>Zhern wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If it were up to me the only classes that the Arasai would be excluded from would be</p><p>Guardian/Berserker</p><p>Bruiser/Monk</p></blockquote><p>Now this is the part where'd I'd have to disagree. I can understand guardian/beserker and I could even understand paladin/shadowknight if you had included those or templar/inquisitor... However, I think it's very plausible for our little fairy friends to be brawlers. They don't wear heavy armor. They're fast on their feet, and they're very agile. They don't have to hit hard, they just have to hit fast and be accurate.</p><p>Anyhow, as I said earlier, the idea has merit, but I wouldn't do it. A lot of things have changed over the span of EQ1 to EQ2. Races have evolved and changed, such as the ogres and erudites. The environment has changed to be much more harsh than it once used to be with the Age of Cataclysms. Just having to survive until you reach one of the starting cities requires so much more than it used to in the days of EQ1 where it was already established without the environmental hazards of impassible seas and broken terrain. The races are stronger and smarter than they once were, allowing for more non-traditional race and class combinations.</p>

[Zhern]

<cite>Sapphirius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zhern wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If it were up to me the only classes that the Arasai would be excluded from would be</p><p>Guardian/Berserker</p><p>Bruiser/Monk</p></blockquote><p>Now this is the part where'd I'd have to disagree. I can understand guardian/beserker and I could even understand paladin/shadowknight if you had included those or templar/inquisitor... However, I think it's very plausible for our little fairy friends to be brawlers. They don't wear heavy armor. They're fast on their feet, and they're very agile. They don't have to hit hard, they just have to hit fast and be accurate.</p><p>Anyhow, as I said earlier, the idea has merit, but I wouldn't do it. A lot of things have changed over the span of EQ1 to EQ2. Races have evolved and changed, such as the ogres and erudites. The environment has changed to be much more harsh than it once used to be with the Age of Cataclysms. Just having to survive until you reach one of the starting cities requires so much more than it used to in the days of EQ1 where it was already established without the environmental hazards of impassible seas and broken terrain. The races are stronger and smarter than they once were, allowing for more non-traditional race and class combinations.</p></blockquote><p>Oh I agree with you to some extent. But this is just for arguement and nothing else.</p><p>I do not want to change or start a change to the current EQ2 system.</p><p>But I would love to see something like this with PvP. But thats just me, and I will never see it, so no use in worryin about it. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Sapphirius]

Well, hun, having played and RPed on Venekor for a while, I can honestly tell you that PvP is not very conducive to roleplay to begin with. I don't really see how wishing for race/class limitations would change that.

[Zhern]

<p>I think with the current EQ2 setup , you are totally correct about the PvP. But going by lore and lore alone. You would never see a Ogre and a Dwarf drinking. Or a High Elf and Dark Elf flying a kite together. So that part of the lore would work in PvP. Which is the reason I said that part. Also the Dark Elf and the Ogre would work together, so that part is good also.</p><p>Now going by lore, you wouldn't see that Troll, listening and playing Mozart. So there are limitations to the race. Just as size would be for a Fae. And as someone also stated that if the PnP aspect of the game were brought here the Ogre would have an exp disadvantage than that of a human. But also the Fae would be very hurt by a melee Ogre hit. So my main point is that the limitations given to us in game, make us stronger, by using those limitations(strengths and weaknesses). Currently there are no limitations in game that can't be made up else were. Hell even WOW has limitations on Race. But like I said before it is all a mute point.</p>

[DrkVsr]

<p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">So you are saying little Blacqphlag shouldn't exist? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">A fae/arasai are more likely to survive an ogre fist to the face: they are light so unless they are backed up against a solid object they could potentially 'ride' the fist, they are also much <i><u>much</u></i> smaller than an ogre (and his fist <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) so the ogre would have to work even harder to even <i>hit</i> the little bug (how many times have you tried to swat a fly with your fist and connect enough to kill it?)</span></p>

[Zhern]

<p>That's a bad example, because I've killed all the fly's that were in my house. I learned how to kill them with my hands alone (years of practice and I am not kidding).</p><p>But for argument sake I do agree that the little Fae would have a better dodging skill than the Ogre. But your luck is only so good for so long. And not only that, how many fights have you ever seen, where the victor was never hit. I used to Box in my younger years, and I know my boxing. The answer for me would be two fights that I have seen, were the victor never got hit. And that's out of thousands of fights, including PKA, Boxing and Ultimate Fighting.</p><p>This comes from the EQ2 PnP. This is an Ogre to Halfling comparison, no Fae in my book.</p><p>This is an Ogre.</p><p>Abilities: +6 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution,</p><p>-2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. The most physically powerful of the</p><p>player character races, ogres are not particularly quick, intuitive,</p><p>or likable.</p><ul><li>Type: Ogres are humanoids with the big folk subtype.</li><li>Experience: Ogres are a particularly powerful race who</li></ul><p>aren't as challenged by most circumstances as members of</p><p>most other races. As a result, they suffer a 25% penalty to all</p><p>experience they earn.</p><ul><li>Large: As Large creatures, ogres suffer a -1 size penalty to</li></ul><p>all attack and defense rolls, and a -4 size penalty on Sneak</p><p>checks. However, they gain a +4 size bonus on all Strength</p><p>checks made to break or smash objects such as doors or chests,</p><p>burst bonds, or the like. They may use larger weapons than</p><p>humans, and their lifting and carrying limits are twice those</p><p>of Medium characters with similar Strength scores. Ogres</p><p>have a natural reach of 10 feet, making them very effective</p><p>melee combatants.</p><ul><li>Ogres' base speed is 30 feet.</li><li>Ogres have nightvision.</li><li>Ogres receive a +4 bonus on their saving throw against any</li></ul><p>effect, magical or otherwise, that would result in the ogre being</p><p><i>dazed, interrupted, </i>or <i>stunned </i>(such as that from the Improved</p><p>Bash feat).</p><ul><li>Due to their enormous size and strength, ogres begin play</li></ul><p>with Slam and Toughened as bonus feats.</p><ul><li>Ogres begin with 4 ranks in Language (Oggish) and 4</li></ul><p>ranks in Language (Norrathian).</p><p>This is Halfling </p><ul><li>Abilities: -2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom,</li></ul><p>-2 Charisma. Halflings are small and spry, having a healthy</p><p>natural dose of common sense but little intellectual inclination.</p><p>Other races tend not to take them seriously, often making it difficult</p><p>for them to interact meaningfully with non-halflings.</p><ul><li>Type: Halflings are humanoids with the wee folk subtype.</li><li>Experience: Halflings earn normal experience.</li><li>Small size: As Small creatures, halflings gain a +1 size</li></ul><p>bonus on all attack and defense rolls, and a +4 size bonus on</p><p>Sneak checks. They suffer a -4 size penalty on all Strength</p><p>checks made to break down doors or smash other object, burst</p><p>bonds, or the like. Further, they must use smaller weapons</p><p>than humans, and their lifting and carrying limits are only</p><p>three-quarters of those of Medium characters with similar</p><p>Strength scores.</p><ul><li>Halflings' base speed is 20 feet.</li><li>Halflings receive a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.</li><li>Halflings have farsight 2.</li><li>Halflings receive Agility and Sneak as starting skills</li></ul><p>regardless of their actual profession, and begin with a total of</p><p>4 bonus skill points, in addition to those gained from their</p><p>starting profession, to distribute between those two skills.</p>

[DrkVsr]

<span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Not to harp on about it, but how many of those flies you killed were with a closed fist while the fly was, well, flying?</span>

[Zhern]

<p>It's not what you used to kill them with, but them being dead. And the analogies of being like files are totally wrong. More like a human vs. a baby comparison. They do reach above the knee in height, just right for punting, after you rip the wings off.</p>

[DrkVsr]

<p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">You <i>still</i> have to catch them to rip their wings off</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">You are right, Adult vs Child is a better comparision, but more 'Normal' Adult vs 'Dwarf' Adult, and you have to remember, that 'dwarf' is armed and armoured so is not as big a pushover as you seem to think</span></p>

[Zarafein]

<p>A dwarf adult against normal adult would be more like Ogre against Human.. sorry but just burst the buble, an arasai isn't made for war, one of them needs to be very experienced to have a chance against an average Ogre or use stuff the ogre hasn't on his side like powerful magic equipment or poison. Rallos choosed to make Ogres the way they are for a reason.. they are strong, intelligent and durable, big but not so big that they can't fight fast opponents and (supported gues<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> they reproduce fast and don't need much time to become viable fightes while for example elves need much longer maybe even +100 years... the biggest weakness for ogres may be there overconfidence(supported by low wisdom), they just go to far sometimes and earn the result.</p>

[Rainmare]

I really, really, get annoyed with the ARAC thing. particularly the troll/ogre casters and scouts.now depending on how you interpreted the lore, ogres either were casters...or the 'ogre casters' was refering to caster under ogre dominion. the goblins, who had that strange word that started with A to classify them. Anexefen so something similar. so I can see where they can use the lore to support it, but I'm highly more inclined, from EQ lore to EQ2...to put the 'ogre caster' into the goblin/enslaved catagory.Trolls...they just shouldn't be casters. even the troll that got experimented on to make it intelligent enough to be a caster, wasn't exactly impressive. and that required brain surgery.and scouts? please. you really want people to think a 7'4, 600 pound monster can sneak past anything without being seen? or that a troll would even have the brain to think to sneak past, and not that it couldn't kill and eat what's in front of it?and I swear, I see one more dark elf ranger with some form of Drizzt's last name, I'm going to kill them myself.

[Zarafein]

<p>Chronicle of Grozmok:</p><p>The first signs I saw of the curse were angry shouts of <b>ogre magi</b> when the planar portals closed. Then the screams of those same magi as fire simultaneously ignited from within their bodies leaving only memories and ashes. </p><p>..Gone were the days of the Rallosian Empire. No longer would there be heroic olive skinned warriors, their dreadlocks adorned with bones of their enemies, brilliant minded tacticians and strategists to ensure our victories, or magi to wield fierce magic and open portals to even the realms of the Gods themselves.</p><hr /><p>since the ogre magi opended the portals its obvious the later part speaks about them as well.</p><p>to troll scouts:"Given their physical capabilities, Trolls can fill virtually any Fighter role, apart from the disciplined style of the Monk. Though limited in intelligence, they can study to become Mages. Despite their lumbering bodies, Trolls make effective Assassins and skilled Rogues. "</p><p>gues they need a very special training and maybe a nose clip <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> or there wisdom(just a bit below humans) somehow compensates their lack of intelligence.. they maybe [I cannot control my vocabulary](ok..:not so smart) but not to an unuseable degree, there are some trolls with the ability for treachery and more than bashing and eating in mind, one example might be troll shaman Gkerzha.</p>

[Zabjade]

<cite>Nocturnal Abyss wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Not sure why you'd want to exclude lore, especially the ogres regaining their intelligience.  I, presonally, enjoyed that bit of lore.</p><p>Onto your other question, from a roleplay perspective, it's hard to say that an Erudite would <i>never</i> play a monk, or guardian, or that a troll could never be a wizard.  Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, especially with the trolls.  I could easily see an Erudite monk, following Quellious.  And perhaps the troll was the result of an experiment where a part of it's brain was swapped out with another, or who knows, maybe the troll simply has a natural affinity towards the arcane.  It may have no idea what it's doing, just that it can do it...come to think of it..I think that's how trolls do most of the stuff they do..</p><p>In fact, if I remember correctly, one of the main storylines going in EQ had a troll Shadow Knight who gained heightened intelligience through a Tier'Dal experiment, and was pretty much glued to the hip of the Tier'Dal who preformed it, but I'd have to go back and double check to be certain.  I think it was a wizardess? *ponders*</p><p>In any case, I consider myself a fairly hardcore roleplayer, and I don't have too much of a problem with the race/class thing.  What's a little more frustrating are the "roleplayers" who don't have a reason for their race/class combo, (The I just thought it'd be funny to have a troll wearing a dress," crowd).</p><p>The other thing to keep in mind is that the majority of the player base does not roleplay.  Even on the forums, a lot of the posters are simply people who like the lore, and may not really care for roleplaying.</p></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00;">Now that is an interesting concept! Idiot-Savant Troll Wizards...as for Ogres I explain my thoughts best on them in the art gallery. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=368026" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">[]</a></span>

[Rainmare]

to be honest, I really think that some of the books like Gromzek's record and such, were specifically placed to give a 'lore' credibility to some races and classes that just shouldn't be.the orignal curse, that is described in Gromzek, takes place before EQ1. in all the lore we found in EQ1, Ogres were not mages. they were soldiers, officers, generals. they weren't scouts,  either.they used the orcs and goblins as scouts, cannon fodder, and mages. while I can concede that with thier intellect back, they may have started the path to magecraft..I just don't see an ogre with an interest in magic surviving thier very intense lifestyle. you'd think with the constant wars and infighting among themselves for status by butchering your buddy that any interest in magecraft would quite literally get beaten out of you before you developed any real skill.Also..Rallos is not the type of god that is one to inspire assassins and bards and brigands. he was all about getting in someone's face and shattering their skull by squeezing it between your hands. and much like the tier'dal and the koada'dal, the ogres were fanatically loyal to thier maker. I would see thier kind looking at all the posturing and positioning of an assassin as a waste of time when shoving a mace up someone's nose is just as effective and faster.same with trolls. 'limited intelligence' is a vast understatement for a troll. it took brain surgery and magical enhancement by a Tier'dal with access to powers probably long lost or unused just to get one to be able to become able to be a mage type. so unless in the last 500 years every troll ever born was subjected to extensive brain surgery, I don't see how trolls can be mages.and a 'lumbering body' by all rights means no, you can't be an effective assassin or scout. an effective assassin and scout has surgical precision and the grace of a dancer. both of which aren't gunna happen with a 'lumbering' body.wisdom makes effective clerical types. shamans. you need a boatload of intelligence to be a mage.

[DrkVsr]

<span style="font-size: medium;color: #993300;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">That's because in EQ1 they were still cursed</span>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>to be honest, I really think that some of the books like Gromzek's record and such, were specifically placed to give a 'lore' credibility to some races and classes that just shouldn't be.the orignal curse, that is described in Gromzek, takes place before EQ1. in all the lore we found in EQ1, Ogres were not mages. they were soldiers, officers, generals. they weren't scouts,  either.they used the orcs and goblins as scouts, cannon fodder, and mages. while I can concede that with thier intellect back, they may have started the path to magecraft..I just don't see an ogre with an interest in magic surviving thier very intense lifestyle. you'd think with the constant wars and infighting among themselves for status by butchering your buddy that any interest in magecraft would quite literally get beaten out of you before you developed any real skill.Also..Rallos is not the type of god that is one to inspire assassins and bards and brigands. he was all about getting in someone's face and shattering their skull by squeezing it between your hands. and much like the tier'dal and the koada'dal, the ogres were fanatically loyal to thier maker. I would see thier kind looking at all the posturing and positioning of an assassin as a waste of time when shoving a mace up someone's nose is just as effective and faster.same with trolls. 'limited intelligence' is a vast understatement for a troll. it took brain surgery and magical enhancement by a Tier'dal with access to powers probably long lost or unused just to get one to be able to become able to be a mage type. so unless in the last 500 years every troll ever born was subjected to extensive brain surgery, I don't see how trolls can be mages.and a 'lumbering body' by all rights means no, you can't be an effective assassin or scout. an effective assassin and scout has surgical precision and the grace of a dancer. both of which aren't gunna happen with a 'lumbering' body.wisdom makes effective clerical types. shamans. you need a boatload of intelligence to be a mage.</blockquote><p>Then, like now, the Ogres are more intelligient than both the orcs and the goblins, it's not a big stretch of the imagination to see them as mages, most likely, they'd be mostly wizards, or other direct damage arcanist.  Ogres are blunt, but not stupid.  They are practical, loyal, and pragmatic.  They are ruthless, cunning, and fierce.  When they were intelligient, you didn't have infighting that much.  You had egos, but more likely than not, if there was a large enough dispute between two individuals, it was either settled by their CO, or they fought in the Arena, to the death.  Order was foremost in all the records we see of the Rallosians.</p><p>Again, we don't see infighting, but we do see ruthlessness.  If an ogre failed to carry out multiple orders, or singularly important orders, there was no second chance, they cut em down, and the next in rank took his place.  Think more like Sparta with more bloodshed, and less art.</p><p>A mage would be a great tactical advantage.  A single mage can level a group of warriors around them.  They can take out enemies at greater distances than most arrows, and, perhaps more importantly, do more damage at a range.  This would make them practical to keep around.  I've always thought Ogres to be a very interesting race, simply because they think differently.  As I said, they are very pragmatic.  The world is as it is, and they're destiny is to rule it.  They don't contemplate the beauty of a beam of light in a forest, they see the beam of light as a beam of light, if anything, they think of how they can use such a thing to a tactical advantage.  Even in their speech, they don't use two words when one will suffice.  They don't use long, drawn out words, they use the simplest words that will make thier point known.</p><p>An ogre would make an excellent scout.  Almost every ogre hones their body to be a weapon (whether through arcane means, spiritual means, or martial means) from almost the day they are born.  They are conditioned, tested, and honed both through societal and individual practice.  Imagine the discipline and training an ogre goes through to become a warrior, and now, instead of a warrior, that effort is directed towards becoming an assassin.  Though they appear, "lumbering," they are far from it, a warrior must be quick on their feet, and able to move fast to strike while the enemy leaves themself vulnerable.  Like the Halasians, ogres are strong, fast, and deadly.  Their bards would sing battle marches, and sing praises to Rallos, or tales of the great victories of their clan.  They'd play war drums, setting the pace for the armies as the march across the landscape..</p><p>Ogres sleep, drink, and eat warfare.  They were designed specifically for warfare.  As such, their minds work on that scale.</p><p>Of course, a lot of this, admittedly, is interpretation.  For in-game evidence of their arcanic ability, I'd refer to, as already has, their past ventures, in which they challenged the gods on their own planes, and successfully invaded the Plane of Earth, and brought the Council of the Rathe back to Norrath, and slew their manifestations.</p>

[Rainmare]

I'll give your points on the ogres as far as the magical prowess they might have had, and may have with thier renewed intellect. I just can't see anyone willing to teach them, or them willing to put in the effort of learning ancient languages and arcane symbols when a warhammer will suffice. not to mention innate resistance to(lorewise) damage. thier like living tanks. they can take a hell of a beating, magical or otherwise. but I will concede that they can make decent mages now if they have access to the suitable teachings and time to study.but I can't see them as a scout. at least not an assassin or brig. I can't picture a 500 lb, 7'5 brute sneaking around, or even bothering to position himself to backstab something. it just doesn't fit that image of a rallosian monster of a being, bred from birth to wield a sword and trained by the doctrines of Rallos.the lumbering comment wasn't really about the ogres, but the trolls. if you lumber around..I mean that to my view is something that kinda just throws it's wieght around, its arms hang loose and sway when it moves, it sways when he walks...almost in a constantly drunken state. not exactly conductive to sneaking, or the surgical precision an assassin has. and then you factor in thier very tiny intellect...they'd probably eat an instrument before they thought to use it as anything more than a club. I can't see them doing anything with a bow other than swing it like a bat or think it's a big funny necklace. I can't see thier brains figuring out that if someone's back is twoard them, they are easier to kill, or learning places to hit that do the most damage.to me a troll just sees something smaller, takes about .5 seconds to decide wether it's edible or not, and it usually is, and then he tries to eat it until it gets away, the troll gets bored, or the person/thing is eaten. not something that can learn magical spells and acrance runes, and certainly not one that even has an inkling to find things like shadows to hide in or learning about the difference between breaking a leg by hitting it with a club and cutting a hamstring to prevent movement of it's dinner.

[Zhern]

<p>As for intelligence I put the Ogre in line with the barbarians. I'd give the edge to the Ogress in melee and magic. But give the edge to the barbarians for scouting and priest. </p><p>But IN MY OPINION race to class would be setup like this.</p><p>Trolls= Berserker-Shadow Knight and Defiler, maybe Guardian.</p><p>Ogres= Troubadour and Dirge, all the warrior classes, only Defilers in priest and Wizard and Warlock in mage.  </p><p>Barbarians=No mages.</p><p>Human/Half Elf= Everything!</p><p>Dark Elf=Everything except Shaman.</p><p>Kerra=everything except mages.</p><p>Fae/Arashi=Everything except, Monks/Bruisers,Guardians and Berserkers.</p><p>Halflings= No mages, only Paladins and Guardians in warrior class.</p><p>Gnomes= Same as Fae.</p><p>Ratonga=Same as Fae</p><p>Erudite= No monks/bruisers/guardians/berserkers no shaman or druids.</p><p>Dwarf= same as Kerra</p><p>Froglok= All Warrior, all scout, all priest, only wizard/warlock in mage class.</p><p>Iksar= Everything except Bards and illusionist.</p><p>Wood Elf- no mages</p><p>High Elf= same as Erudites, except can be Druids.</p><p>Sarnak= No bards-no mages.</p><p>And thanks guys, for the response. I really wasn't trying to start a please change EQ2 thread. This is for debate only.</p>

[Zarafein]

<p>I would add monk for Erudite in this time, for several reasons</p><p>1.the main npc(prophet was makoto) in the quellious questline is an erudite monk and there is another erudite monk in the questline</p><p>2.they seam quite interestet in the way of monks, listen to the erudite woman in starcrest near the fountain for nice info about arcane combat(not quite sure if this is the correct translation/orginal at the moment)</p><p>3.cause the nature of arcane combat, physical strength can become less important and on the eq2 website you can read the following regarding monks: The Monk is a spiritual combatant who believes in the philosophy of mind-over-body. </p><p>4.prima guide mentions they also study as monks</p><p>bruisers on the other hand don't fit to them at all imo</p>