First impressions since Rok - Crafting is even less challenging.

[Terron]

I very much like the new interface, and the simplified arts. I also like the removal of the no pristine results (with some minor quibbles of not great importance). However I did a rush order yesterday with my level 51 woodworker whilst watching television. I had equipped my prismatic and godking weapons for power regen, but otherwise was in normal adventuring gear. I was just drumming my fingers on the progress arts (4,5,6) paying no attention to events and not attempting to counter any. Every so often I would glance at the durability bar and if it was below about 1/3rd of the 4th row I swicthed to drumming my fingers on the durability arts (1,2,3) until it had gone back over about 2/3rd of the fourth row. I completed the rush order with over a minute to spare - more than I have every had before, even when paying more attention, countering most events, using more power regen gear, and the FD item. Rush orders were the only part of crafting that was any challenge and that seems to have gone.

[Swordmage]

<p>And this is a bad thing?</p><p>I actually like to use crafting as a way of avoiding/releaving stress; a nice alternative to combat, not more of the same (the reason I really don't like Vanguard crafting). I am used to rush orders on my level 63 carpenter and what you are experiencing now is what I was used to before RoK so perhaps things are just getting easier sooner for the mid-level crafter.</p><p>With the elimination of product on anything but pristine combines (ignoring food and other consumables), it makes sense to me for the arts to be somewhat more effective. </p>

[tom1301]

hm, i didn't get what's the point in having unchallenging tradeskills. For sure you would'nt want heroics mobs die with the first strike of your sword? Sure you would prefer to think about improving your combat style, about what weapons to use, when to use and so on.For the same reasons i prefer having a challenging and non-trivial tradeskilling. If there is no such in making items, why should crafting at all take more than a simple click on the recipe and -bang- here's your pristine imbued feysteel halberd?Why bother with crafting events like overheating, reaction arts, power usage and out-of-power-issues, pristine or not-pristine items.Crafting is (or should be) intended to add another facet of playstyle and diversity into the world of Norrath. SOE had done a partially good job on it, but now they are driving it against the wall, for triviality's sake.

[Whysprr_Wyrd]

<p>Strongly agree with OP.  It's far too easy now.  I like some of the changes; they clean up things that were messy; but the next step is to put some complexity and challenge, not arbitrary complexity but something akin to what's required to play a <your adventurer class of choice> effectively; back nito the crafting system.  </p><p>Whysprr</p>

[Aurumn]

<p>I don't consider myself an expert crafter by any means, but my impression of crafting after the expansion is that things are much improved. I believe the relative ease of crafting that has resulted is at least partly due to the new reaction arts. They seem much more balanced than before. For example, instead of my highest Durability buff being only +10 and my highest Progress buff being +18 they're both +16. It's just plain easier to catch up on Durability when it drops. This has perhaps resulted in things being a little *too* easy to some. </p><p>I didn't do any rush orders, but I did notice that my 32 tailor (18 adv lvl) using Level 20 drink and a rat totem for power regen never dipped below 50% even while spamming power arts at every round. It's normally rare that I fail to get pristine and that seems to have continued. The only real difference being less frantic durability spamming (due to the better balanced arts) and less down time between combines due to low power levels. I think perhaps leveling was a bit faster than previous, but not much so. Mind you, I didn't crunch numbers on this. I just did all the common combines I could for pristine bonus then started doing writs (as I normally do) until I dinged a level. Rinse & repeat. </p><p>Perhaps eventually there will be a call to ramp up the difficulty a bit in the future. I'd rather give things a little while and see how things settle out. As long as nothing changes so people can hit the Easy Button and crank out stacks of goods in 1/2 the took pre-RoK flooding the market, I think we'll be fine. </p><p>*Edit: perhaps increasing the power cost of the reaction arts would force folks to use a little more strategy rather than blindly spamming. Especially in light of the -10% power cost racial buffs now floating around.* </p>

[Adrinanna]

I find it much easier now, perhaps too easy. I did the same thing with just spamming the buttons without bothering to counter and I don't believe I even dropped below 80% power but once. (At this point if we are still going to even bother with reactions why not make the pop-up reaction clickable.)

[Zarafein]

I like the new interface and arts, those buff stones for weapon smith and new furniture but the power cost is just too low, it renders many racial traits useless and makes crafting too easy.

[Terron]

Getting pristine was no challenge before.But I did have to pay attention to complete a rush order.Now I can do them with time to spare without paying attention.That is a bad thing.Not attempting to counter events should lead to failure.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now I can do them with time to spare without paying attention.That is a bad thing.</blockquote>I never get under 4:30 left on the clock with my carpenter now. (aside from the one time I had to go buy materials twice mid writ). Crafting has always been easy if you took the time to learn. Now the learning curve is gone. The whole thing is far to easy.

[Maroger]

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now I can do them with time to spare without paying attention.That is a bad thing.</blockquote>I never get under 4:30 left on the clock with my carpenter now. (aside from the one time I had to go buy materials twice mid writ). Crafting has always been easy if you took the time to learn. Now the learning curve is gone. The whole thing is far to easy.</blockquote>No point in it being difficult when all we make is C*R*A*P and no players wants it. After all a lot of stuff got nerfed -- so there is no reason to make something difficult which produces goods no one wants and which are unsellable.!!

[Mighty Melvor]

<p>The other aspect that really has me concerned is the RoK treasured items.  Has anyone seen the quested loot in T2.  Master Crafted gear cnnot come close to this gear at all!</p><p>I've accepted that our handcrafted junk is solely for grinding levels, but to make mastercrafted trivial is a really bad move IMO!</p>

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Mighty Melvor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The other aspect that really has me concerned is the RoK treasured items.  Has anyone seen the quested loot in T2.  Master Crafted gear cnnot come close to this gear at all!</p><p>I've accepted that our handcrafted junk is solely for grinding levels, but to make mastercrafted trivial is a really bad move IMO!</p></blockquote>Overall RoK items are amazing compared to older items.

[Chondrichtheyia]

I really, really like what they did with the crafting interface.Other than that, I do not enjoy crafting being so easy. I'm a 60 Sage, and I can craft 58 and 59 spells merely by spamming the buttons. My power never drops below 94%. At least WoW doesn't pretend to have a sophisticated crafting system - you get your item with the press of a button. Here in EQ2, what was once an interesting system is now one where I simply have to spam the progress buttons. SOE, if you're going to noobify the tradeskills, let us at least be able to craft without having to randomly spam 3 buttons and be able to watch TV in peace. Otherwise, bring the old system back!EDIT: grammar

[SnoesieQ]

<p>I for one do not want a nerf to the new power system, or how the buffs work.</p><p>The old one punished people who prefered to adventure and craft on the same character. I'm not going to get into an argument about whether or not it could be done - but, the same character (and player) would have an easier time if it was a lower adventure level.</p><p>My carpenter could always do writs leaving 4 to 4½ min left on a rush-order. It didn't enhance my experience with my other crafters that they could only do half the writs in the same time. Maybe the timer on the rush-orders need to be adjusted when the new system has settled in, so be it. </p><p>I think its a good thing that the different crafters are more similar now, and I hope it will be more of a focus on making the items we can make more useful and different from each other. If I play a carpenter I want her to be defined by that she makes furniture, not that she can craft the fastest and easiest.</p><p>This is only my personal opinion, of course, I understand if some people enjoyed pushing buttons to optimize their session. But for me, it has always been about making things, not about the interface. I would rather have devtime spent creating a reason to make a weaponsmith than having more time spent re-doing the crafting process again. </p>

[sokil]

I have noticed I never run past the first dot of my power line even if I use power every tick. I thought it was to help lvl crafters since everyone will need T8 items. I don't mind not having a challenge but I hope this is not something permanent. I was alble to reproduce the no or very low power usage with all 5 of my toons. Doees make it all very easy though.

[Maroger]

<cite>SnoesieQ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think its a good thing that the different crafters are more similar now, and I hope it will be more of a focus on making the items we can make more useful and different from each other. If I play a carpenter I want her to be defined by that she makes furniture, not that she can craft the fastest and easiest.</p></blockquote><p>Hell will freeze over before the main designers, producer, hardcore and raiders allow the output of armor and weapons to be better than even the worse drop off a mob. </p><p>There is a plan afoot to nerf armor crafting - too bad you haven't noticed it. I saw it coming in beta. </p>

[SnoesieQ]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SnoesieQ wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think its a good thing that the different crafters are more similar now, and I hope it will be more of a focus on making the items we can make more useful and different from each other. If I play a carpenter I want her to be defined by that she makes furniture, not that she can craft the fastest and easiest.</p></blockquote><p>Hell will freeze over before the main designers, producer, hardcore and raiders allow the output of armor and weapons to be better than even the worse drop off a mob. </p><p>There is a plan afoot to nerf armor crafting - too bad you haven't noticed it. I saw it coming in beta. </p></blockquote><p>For me, that isn't the only way to make interesting professions. As someone who used to play SWG pre-cu, EQ2 crafting also in its previous stage seems fairly useless tbh. Its more of a hobby with benefits, all the crafted items are generic.</p><p>In principle I absolutely agree with you, but, in my perspective, it has always been the case in EQ2, ie dropped armor has been better than crafted. That mastercrafted is getting worse in comparison is unfortunate, but I haven't bought any weapons from a weaponsmith on any of my adventurers for instance, I think past 22... and no armour past 52. Well, I did end up buying 62 for my inq for "soloing" (=harvesting and fighting off the occasional aggro) as it has a bit +int, which her healer outfit doesnt have much of.</p><p>I do think its a shame that it is that way - some games get around the idea that adventuring is somehow superior to crafting by using dropped components.</p><p>I guess I see EQ2 for what it is, and hope that its possible to make the crafting professions work better within the confines of the genre, type of game and direction it is moving in. I have played for about a year and half, so I can't have opinions on the original crafting system and how it compares. When I say how I see EQ2, I base it on the time I have played, of course.</p><p>As for "hardcore" - in whatever game I have played, the crafters and traders have always made up the most hardcore players, if by that you mean the most loyal and most engaged core of the playerbase. It is a pity that developers seem to have such little imagination to truly tap that potential.</p>

[Domino]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>There is a plan afoot to nerf armor crafting - too bad you haven't noticed it. I saw it coming in beta. </p></blockquote>It never ceases to amaze me how I seem to totally miss these internal memos about policy decisions I've never heard of.Also remarkable how many people who aren't employed by SOE seem to end up on the mailing lists instead of me ... *wonders if they're camping out in the mail room*<img src="http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3814/capofconspiracieseh3.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Nightprowler]

<p>Well Domino, I think what Maroger refers to is what I noticed and opened a thread about (<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=394001" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=394001</a>).</p><p>T5 Mastercrafted armors (Armorer ones only) got a decrease in their stats. I left aside paranoïa tho, and compared with Tailor T5 Mastercrafted armors, and noticed it didn't happen on those, so I guess it was just a mistake <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I made an ingame /feedback about it too, but I'd still like to hear your point of view on that, thanks by advance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[EQ2Magroo]

The problem with crafting in any game is you have two opposing viewpoints who want different things:1. Adventurers - They want the best items dropped from mobs, so they can feel proud of killing Uber mob of Uberness x 4. They don't want a whole bunch of noobs running around in the same gear as them that they just bought from a crafter.2. Crafters - They want to sell stuff that people need. They also want to see the "top players" running around in their gear, to get a sense of pride about being a super skilled tradeskiller.Now these two viewpoints will never converge in the current game.The solution is to have the end mobs drop (tradeable) recipes and (no trade) raws. These are then used via the commissioning system to allow a crafter to make you the adventurer an uber item.However, I seem to remember reading that this idea had been vetod a while back ? (might be thinking of another game, so don't quote me !!)

[Nightprowler]

<p>Well Magroo, I don't exactly agree with you... the way I see things is a bit different.</p><p>IMO the stuff Crafters can make should be (at least regarding MC) better than drops from common mobs.</p><p>Now, it is common sense to me than what you get in a raid should be better than Mastercrafted.</p><p>So, for me, here's how things should be ordered :</p><p>1) Handcrafted/Treasured</p><p>2) Mastercrafted/Legendary (with eventually a slight advantage for Legendary vs Mastercrafted)</p><p>3) Fabled</p>

[Finora]

<p>I can't honestly tell any difference in the ease now than the ease before ROK. Seems the same to me, but I'm one of those that never had issues finishing a rush order with plenty of time to spare (even on my armorer and weaponsmith). I'm also one of those that never bothered to drink/usetotem/get naked to tradeskill. /shrug</p><p>It never was all that difficult to be quite honest, even back in the day when there were still interdependancies.</p>

[SnoesieQ]

<p>Just to clarify what *I* thought I was commenting on: Reports of easily obtainable loot in Kunark being better than MC. (treasured, rather than Legendary or Fabled)</p><p>Since I haven't seen it myself just hearsay, that could be wrong.</p>

[Finora]

<p>Well there's some of the quest rewards that are comparable to much harder to get items from KOS I know that (some necklace I got was definately comparable to the mark of awakened intellect I currently use, and if I were an up and coming player I'd definately not even bother with the MOA quest).</p><p>I was personally impressed with the stats on some of the mastercrafted stuff I saw (a ring with 30 30 30 good health/power very nice resists, making me reconsider the rings I have lol...if Only I didn't have FT on my current one...)</p>

[Domino]

<cite>Nightprowler@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well Domino, I think what Maroger refers to is what I noticed and opened a thread about (<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=394001" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=394001</a>).</p><p>T5 Mastercrafted armors (Armorer ones only) got a decrease in their stats. I left aside paranoïa tho, and compared with Tailor T5 Mastercrafted armors, and noticed it didn't happen on those, so I guess it was just a mistake <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I made an ingame /feedback about it too, but I'd still like to hear your point of view on that, thanks by advance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Since absolutely nothing has been changed on that armor since long before I even started working here, I have nothing to say in that thread and I'm keeping my hat on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Also please note that just in self-preservation red-name posters do not tend to answer threads directly addressed to them, see the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules of conduct</a> for reference.

[Nightprowler]

<p>Note taken, sorry ^^</p><p>I'll take that in account from now on, didn't payed much attention to that part so far.</p>

[leiela]

<p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Ive always been a hardcore crafter, with my 4 years vet reward under my belt ive seen many changes in the world of crafting. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Firstly i'd like to say that domino is by far the best thing to happen to crafting in a long time, your obviously putting alot of good work in to help people like me. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I concider myself a pure crafter, i play to craft adventuring rarely comes into my life, for years my guild has teased me for doing what they concider mind numbingly bash buttons and ive always laughed it off... </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">y</span><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">es its true thats all i do craft........ and yes to an extent its always been mind numblingly bashing buttons</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I became the richest person on my server about 18 months ago and i held it for along time however my interest in the game has wavered in the past few month and i've slipped to 2nd place for no other reason than lazyness on my part. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">I didn't worry about it ... ROK was around the corner 9 crafters waiting to get to 80th ... i'd get my spot back then. However ROK's come and having gotten my first crafter to 80th within 48 hours of release im struggling to keep the interest i think finnally ive realised why my guild make fun of me.... crafting is really dull. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> Has crafting gotten more boring... not really its the same as always... is it easier ... yes undoubtedly. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Personally if i was to ask for two things it would be these.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">1)Make crafting challenging ( i wont say bring the challenge back it was never there to begin with. but surely making pristene's harder to get ... make events more important to counter, do something!!!!!!!... anything ) </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">2) make crafting fun... ive crafted all day while reading the fourms / playing a secondary game on my lap top and i have to wonder ... if i feel the need to "keep my mind occupid" while crafting what the hell am i doing it for and more importantly why am i paying to be bored. </span></span></p>

[Mishkel]

<cite>Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with crafting in any game is you have two opposing viewpoints who want different things:1. Adventurers - They want the best items dropped from mobs, so they can feel proud of killing Uber mob of Uberness x 4. They don't want a whole bunch of noobs running around in the same gear as them that they just bought from a crafter.2. Crafters - They want to sell stuff that people need. They also want to see the "top players" running around in their gear, to get a sense of pride about being a super skilled tradeskiller.Now these two viewpoints will never converge in the current game.</blockquote><p>The problem with crafting to make a generic statement is this (and it applies to eq2 or any game with a similar loot system).</p><p>In order to have a viable crafting economy.  You have to have player that need to buy from the crafters.</p><p>In a "uber loot" based game.. You can sell player crafted to a point.  Then you have the end game raid content that pretty much replaces what you make.</p><p>At that point you either need a non stop stream of alts leveling up or a constant influx of new players.  Now EQ2 may have the never ending alt stream, but I don't see that mass of new players.</p><p>If you want to see a "working player economy", you would have to have seen early Ultima Online or Star Wars Galaxies (at certain points in its life/death cycle).</p><p>I could ramble on and describe the issues (which are probably apparant).  There just isn't much point unless they decide to totally change the game.. and that didn't work so well for SWG.  If they want to create a working crafter economy (any game developer) they need to design the game that way... from the start.</p><p>I'm not going to claim I'm for one version or the other... but I used to be a hardcore crafter (uo/swg).  In games like EQ2 its just really hard for me to get into it.  My sage is almost level 80 and I only have that.. because I don't want to pay the stupidly high prices on the market. (the prices are a result of the game design.. but anyway).</p>

[Gargamel]

<p>Well they sorta' had a solution for this back before DoF.</p><p>Basically raid mobs could drop components that would require a high lvl crafter (and supposidly some adv book) to use the components to craft.</p><p>At the time it appeared to be meant for spells (way to crafter master spells, from a 'generic' fabled rare).  I don't see why they don't do that again, give crafters another market and ability to craft great fabled gear... only require the materials to be gained through raiding (or buying from raiders).</p><p>Everyone wins.</p><p>The 'amulets' and all that they used were taken out pre-DoF and the closest thing since was the fabled armor patterns in KoS, though those were crafted by that giant in Sol Eye and not player crafters.</p>

[Tokam]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nightprowler@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well Domino, I think what Maroger refers to is what I noticed and opened a thread about (<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=394001" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=394001</a>).</p><p>T5 Mastercrafted armors (Armorer ones only) got a decrease in their stats. I left aside paranoïa tho, and compared with Tailor T5 Mastercrafted armors, and noticed it didn't happen on those, so I guess it was just a mistake <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I made an ingame /feedback about it too, but I'd still like to hear your point of view on that, thanks by advance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Since absolutely nothing has been changed on that armor since long before I even started working here, I have nothing to say in that thread and I'm keeping my hat on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Also please note that just in self-preservation red-name posters do not tend to answer threads directly addressed to them, see the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" target="_blank">forum rules of conduct</a> for reference.</blockquote>Youve never been just another red name though have you hun. Nope, you are much better than that.Thanks for all my (mine all mine damit it was all just for me) lovely new implements of misery and woe btw. In a few days when toka is 80 Im gonna have the worlds biggest redecorating spree! Woots!

[cocoa_boy]

<p>The current crafting system in this game is not challenging. I'm not a masochist, but failure to counter an event while crafting an item should result in a negative of some kind. At the moment a failure to counter with the correct reaction results in an otherwise negligable effect that does not hinder or slow the flow of progress.</p><p>Surely Tradeskilling can offer a fair amount of challenge and excitement without ostracizing or polarizing this Game's player base... </p>

[Maroger]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nightprowler@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well Domino, I think what Maroger refers to is what I noticed and opened a thread about (<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=394001" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=394001</a>).</p><p>T5 Mastercrafted armors (Armorer ones only) got a decrease in their stats. I left aside paranoïa tho, and compared with Tailor T5 Mastercrafted armors, and noticed it didn't happen on those, so I guess it was just a mistake <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I made an ingame /feedback about it too, but I'd still like to hear your point of view on that, thanks by advance <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Since absolutely nothing has been changed on that armor since long before I even started working here, I have nothing to say in that thread and I'm keeping my hat on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Also please note that just in self-preservation red-name posters do not tend to answer threads directly addressed to them, see the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" target="_blank">forum rules of conduct</a> for reference.</blockquote><p>Domino  - Mastercrafted armor ALWAYS had higher AC than the equivalent level treasured. This was nerfed in ROK - Mastercraftere now has the same AC as treasured and in my opinion that is a NERF. Mastercrafted in other levels was ALWAYS better than treasured.</p><p>Now with ROK T1 and T2 treasured is better than Mastercrafted and so is T8. I made some mastercrafted in T8 and was shocked to find it a piece of junk when compared to Treasured. Why would anyone bother to level an armorer under the current conditions. </p>

[Radigazt]

<p>I actually like the changes.  I'm by no means a hardcore crafter, but I do enjoy it as a stress relief and money maker as opposed to farming or those clowns that buy plat.  I especially like that the rush orders (at least the level 70 ones) no longer ask for several different types of things.  The only reason I ever missed a rush order before was because I couldn't fit all the ingredients into my bags (quest junk in there mostly) and had to run back to the broker to hastily buy ingredients only to just barely miss the rush order.  Now with only 1 thing asked for, I know I have enough, because there's not one combine that'll ask for 1 extra ingredient I neglected to put in my already stuffed bags.  </p><p>I also like getting rid of the non-pristines, since people who actually bought them were predictably disappointed, and selling them just meant more clutter in my bags.  </p><p>I support the idea of a crafting bar in the crafting window, but I'd like some way to customize it a tad more, like either put a full 12 slots of bars we could fill (even if only 6 show) or some way to independently bind each art to a spedific key (AKA, NOT only the first 6 keys) without having to rebind all of our hotkeys we use for combat.  </p><p>With the advent of T2, T6, T7, and T8 quest items being better than Mastercrafted, it does take quite a lot away from tradeskilling though.  I'd like to put the meaning back in Mastercrafted, because in those tiers the MC now kinda means MeaninglessCrud ... or perhaps Crud isn't the correct word.  </p><p>I'm not looking for uber, I don't want to be as good as Legendary, but I'd like Mastercrafted to be at least as good as all the Treasured gear in every tier.  That doesn't seem like so much to ask for IMHO.  </p>

[Terron]

<cite>cocoa_boy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The current crafting system in this game is not challenging. I'm not a masochist, but failure to counter an event while crafting an item should result in a negative of some kind. At the moment a failure to counter with the correct reaction results in an otherwise negligable effect that does not hinder or slow the flow of progress.</p></blockquote>I think that is the crux of the matter. Countering events needs to be important. There are two ways to do that - a penalty for failing or a bonus for succeeding. Perhaps as a penalty something like loosing 20% of your power and having that round's results capped to -20,-20 or worse for a normal event. For major ones double the numbers to 40%,-40,-40 and for minor ones make the -10%,-10,-10. These would not make it much harder, but might be enough to make trying to counter worth the effort. As a bonus perhaps if you complete a recipe without missing a single counter you could have some of the raws returned.

[Karlen]

I have to agree that it has gotten easier.  As a woodworker, what works for me is to do 1-2-3-1-2-3 (to get the durability well into the fifth bar) and then repeat 4-5-6 until done.   If I see an event in time to counter, I will, but it doesn't really seem to make much difference unless I miss a lot of them.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Karlen@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have to agree that it has gotten easier.  As a woodworker, what works for me is to do 1-2-3-1-2-3 (to get the durability well into the fifth bar) and then repeat 4-5-6 until done.   If I see an event in time to counter, I will, but it doesn't really seem to make much difference unless I miss a lot of them.</blockquote>While playing around with it one my carp I found I only needed one round of durability buffing at the beginning as long as there isnt any failed rounds. This only ends up saving about 10 sec on a rushorder since it is not exactly common to have no failed rounds.

[Mighty Melvor]

<p>I finally got a chance to grind a few of my tradeskillers and I will have to agree with the OP.  Tradeskilling is easy mode now.  There is no challenge at all.  I tried to grind a few rush orders and it just became painfully boring.  I couldn't even stay interested enough to keep it up.</p><p>Biggest change I've seen is that the power-consuming reactive is still percentage based, yet the % was completely watered-down to be insignificant.  I couldn't even come close to running out of power while spamming the reactive.</p><p>Domino, please reconsider the % power-consuming reactive.  Also, as others have posted, there should be detrimental effects when failing a reactive.</p><p>Make tradeskilling at least a wee-bit challenging again!</p><p>Spamming all my reactives at each tick without consequences is mind-numbingly boring!</p>

[callahan]

Weaponsmith has gone from a struggle to get Pristine/keeping Power, to just spamming Progress, and my power never goes below 80%.Don't think I need my artisans tunic, tongs or tinkerer book.Might not be same for other tiers, but T8 is a joke.

[Karlen]

<span class="postbody">>>>While playing around with it one my carp I found I only needed one round of durability buffing at the beginning as long as there isnt any failed rounds. This only ends up saving about 10 sec on a rushorder since it is not exactly common to have no failed rounds.<<<You are probably right there.  I've never done any tradeskill writs and only make items for personal use, friends or the broker so have never been in a particular hurry.   Doing two durability rounds ensures that I can safely watch TV for the rest of the process and know that nothing bad is going to happen.  </span>

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Mighty Melvor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Spamming all my reactives at each tick without consequences is mind-numbingly boring!</blockquote>You know .. it really has not changed all that much.. The old system and the new system are just button mashing. Now you it is even less thinking involved but that isn't to say there was much to begin with. I use to 2 box harvesting and crafting without a problem so it couldn't take that much attention before. The thing we lost is having to actually learn your skills and figure out which ones to use. I use to keep up "good counter" buffs that I only used for countering events (if they were not what I normally would use anyway). These arts always produced a crit when countering. Figuring things like this out is no more. Some people may think that is a good thing but, I kinda miss it.

[Eridu]

<span style="font-size: small;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;color: #006600;">I like the normalisation of the Arts and the power consumption changes.  There's no "skill" to keeping a character in it's bloomers in level 10 Rat Totemhood - now the penalty for "foolishly" leveling a character is gone.   Getting pristine before was never an issue, but now it's possible to actually enjoy a character fully kitted out in the world and daring to save the world from gnolls.Countering events have always seemed pointless, I didn't particularly stress over them before the changes.  I've noticed the same annoying seemingly inexplicable durability loss remains while countering events.  I've seen my durability bar dip below the fourth bar and had to spam the durability arts to bring it back up.Now if they'd just do something about Harvesting ...</span>

[Siclone]

I don't think crafting is suppose to be exciting.  Its just a secondary tier you do to make things, for your self or an attempt to make money.its easier now with RoK and personally i like it that way.  If I want hard I will raid. 

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mighty Melvor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Spamming all my reactives at each tick without consequences is mind-numbingly boring!</blockquote>You know .. it really has not changed all that much.. The old system and the new system are just button mashing. Now you it is even less thinking involved but that isn't to say there was much to begin with. I use to 2 box harvesting and crafting without a problem so it couldn't take that much attention before. The thing we lost is having to actually learn your skills and figure out which ones to use. I use to keep up "good counter" buffs that I only used for countering events (if they were not what I normally would use anyway). These arts always produced a crit when countering. Figuring things like this out is no more. Some people may think that is a good thing but, I kinda miss it. </blockquote><p>I know all too well the button mashing and spamming reactives.  Experienced tradeskillers all know the process:  wait for tick, react to icon (if any), else spam.  The problem now is that rush orders are trivialized for even the most inexperienced crafters.  There is no purpose to even 'try' to tradeskill, because it nearly impossible to bork it up.</p><p>Can't wait to see the first posts about removing the reactives all together, or better yet, why should anyone even have to wait for the progress bar to move.  I can hear it now "Geesh, spamming these 3 buttons is just a waste of time"  "Gosh, waiting for the progress bar to fill up is just another time sink!".</p><p><u>All</u> challenge to tradeskilling is now gone!</p><p>As for the people who say if they want hard they will raid?  Well, did you take a look at the RoK treasured items lately?  Yes, they all have huge in-combat regens!  I can only assume the legendary and fabled item will be even better!!  Trivialized raiding at it's WoW best!!!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  Power management skill in EQ2 is a thing of the past.</p>

[dartie]

<p>I like a lot of the changes to crafting that RoK brought.</p><p>I love the new interface and the hotbar space it has freed up.</p><p>I think it's great that having a huge power pool no longer puts my adventurers at a huge disadvantage as compared to the crafters that I kept at a low adventuring level.</p><p>Still, I agree that crafting is even less challenging than it used to be.  Rush writs used to be a breeze for some of my crafters, but not all of them.  Now they are a breeze for everyone.  </p><p>I don't have much of an opinion about whether this is good or bad.  I can easily finish rush writs on every tradeskill without focusing on the game.  It used to be that if I became distracted by what was on television, I could blow a rush order.  Now I'm primarily focusing on television, absent-mindedly spamming the progress for power button, and occasionally using my counters when I see the opportunity--and I have yet to blow a rush order.  </p><p>I can't help thinking that once things become this easy, the advantage shifts dramatically to botters--but I guess that's really my only concern.  Crafting never was particularly challenging, and the fact that it is less so now only lets me pay closer attention to what's going on with _Chuck_ and _Reaper_. </p><p>My prediction is that the power counters will have a steeper power cost associated with them and that the time for completing rush orders will be reduced with Domino's next change, but I am not terribly concerned about whether that prediction comes true.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Eridu wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;color: #006600;">Countering events have always seemed pointless, I didn't particularly stress over them before the changes.  I've noticed the same annoying seemingly inexplicable durability loss remains while countering events. </span></blockquote>You just didnt take it to the level where there was an effect. You didnt <i>need </i>to take things that far but you had the option. Like I have said some arts always produced a crit when use as a counter. Little things like that always added a little more depth to the system. Now it is gone and there is no choices.

[Llogwey]

<cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't honestly tell any difference in the ease now than the ease before ROK. Seems the same to me, but I'm one of those that never had issues finishing a rush order with plenty of time to spare (even on my armorer and weaponsmith). I'm also one of those that never bothered to drink/usetotem/get naked to tradeskill. /shrug</p><p>It never was all that difficult to be quite honest, even back in the day when there were still interdependancies.</p></blockquote><p>Same here...</p><p>But as I tried in beta... T2 is harder than before. At low tier it's not THAT easy now, and it was really hard at the start. We had to ask our sweet Domino to make it a bit easier. I don't think it's easy for newbies. And for high level crafters it's more or less the same than before. </p><p>But when we had interdependancies I remember the time I grinded skill points for geocraft from 10 to 230 in one day... It was hard work hehe</p>

[Terron]

<cite>Llogwey wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>But as I tried in beta... T2 is harder than before. At low tier it's not THAT easy now, and it was really hard at the start. We had to ask our sweet Domino to make it a bit easier. I don't think it's easy for newbies. And for high level crafters it's more or less the same than before.</p></blockquote>It is not the same at high levels. It is significantly easier and faster for all the ones I have tried: Jeweler 70-71, Alchemist 59, Tailor 57, Woodworker 51 and Carpenter 39. It is possible to complete rush orders with the minimal attention by spamming arts. There is no need to watch for what to counter or wait for a new round. It hasn't been hard to get pristine at level + once I realized the need to spam arts. Rush orders required a bit of effort to counter events, though I never went to the extent of using the secret bonuses that some arts had. I considered that bad design. The  game tutorial was not very good at teaching you how to craft well, thouhg it was good at getting you through the first tier. I haven't looked at the new one yet. My latest alt is on level 9, so I could give T2 crafting a try.

[Belaythien]

Sure, crafting has become easier but I think many of you are exaggerating the difference. Even before RoK I could easily get to pristine just by spamming the same buttons again and again. I've always crafted while doing something else like surfing, watching TV, etc. There was no need to counter events before. I admit that sometimes an item was rather intractable and required a lot of durability buffs but in the end this never kept me from going pristine.Not that much has changed. I still have to remove my armor and jewelry and use totems/drinks or else I'll run out of power. I still get the occasional second best quality if I don't pay attention. The only real change is that you use less power than before.To me crafting isn't about struggling to output items. It's about crafting the right items and finding out what yields most profit on the broker. Planning what resources to buy when, what products to make and how to sell best, that's a challenge. Producing items never has been one. These changes are great in my book.

[Erronn]

<p>Many great points have been brought up here. My question is - what is the big picture. That is, what is the overall goal for crafting in EQ2?</p><p>It appears that it was/is intended to be a way to produce items in a non-trivial manner. Not just hitting a button and BAM, you have a product. But each time you craft an item, you are in a sense "in a battle" - the process is like fighting a mob. You buff, you counter, etc. A parallel to adventuring. You level, you quest (writs, etc.), you get injured/lose power, etc.</p><p>With this type of parallelism, should there be different difficulties to these "crafting battles"? Like easy ones, named ones, heroic ones, etc? It appears that many people feel crafting now is like fighting gray mobs - trivial. Should there be some more difficult recipes? Then there are other folks who like the easy mode - crafting is just a means to an end, and should be as quick and easy as possible.</p><p>Frankly, it has already been greatly simplified over the years by the removal of dependent sub-combines, then the removal of sub-combines alltogether. I guess I'd recommend that "normal" handcrafted items be fairly trivial to craft, and let the "named" mastercrafted items be difficult - maybe absolutely require the proper counters and strategic buffs. I don't want a tough battle for leveling up (grinding) through normal recipes, but a challenge once in awhile for the 'best' items seems appropriate.</p><p>Curious how the dev's see it.</p><p>Erronn</p>

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>Erronn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It appears that it was/is intended to be a way to produce items in a non-trivial manner. Not just hitting a button and BAM, you have a product. But each time you craft an item, you are in a sense "in a battle" - the process is like fighting a mob. You buff, you counter, etc. A parallel to adventuring. You level, you quest (writs, etc.), you get injured/lose power, etc.</p></blockquote><p>/LOL  Interesting parallel</p><p>Honestly, that was the idea behind rush orders vs. work orders.  Risk v Reward.  Take Rush Orders:  Risk - timed event:  Reward - More faction, quicker leveling, less harvests used overall.</p><p>TS writs were the best improvement to tradeskilling in a long time, but now it's completely trivialized.  A newbie with no tradeskill experience can grind out TS faction and guild levels without even looking at the screen.</p><p>I suppose if we draw a parallel to the current state of TS writs, we should update the adventure writs to have you kill 3-down arrow grey mobs.  That's about what TS writs are at this point - button mashing...</p>

[Jehannum]

<p>So, I've played a little bit with crafting since RoK and while I do like the tidy-up as far as it goes (went from umpteen zillion pages of reactions to like 6) the easy button seems to have been made mandatory.  As a provisioner, prior to the changes I had no trouble generally making a rush order with a couple of minutes left on the timer; how tough it was only seemed to make the difference between an average of just under 2 minutes remaining (for the toughest) and 2:30 for the easiest.</p><p>The past few nights I've done some crafting (almost 2 levels' worth, so really very little indeed) and I have to admit I'm a little disappointed with how easy it's become since I finished the last level before the patch.  Part of that is undoubtedly the fact that I've been getting first-time exp, which hasn't happened in a couple of years.  Part of it, though, is that it's just far too easy to craft now.  I can now finish a rush order with an average of 4:00-4:15 remaining on the timer, though granted these are easy ones.  My best was 5:23 (when I got a bunch of reactions and ran with them) and my worst was 2:50 (when I got 8 failed cycles in a row on one craft session, and 6 on another)</p><p>Neither of my crafting sessions has lasted all that long; I've done a total of about 8 writs and am nearly 72 off those plus first-time discovery exp for the 70-71 recipes.  I haven't seen the exp move like this since I was level 30.</p><p>Edit - as to power usage, I'm a troubador, always have Bria's loaded, and massive regen gear, and still managed to run out of power.  Spamming constantly, for the entire rush work order, but I managed it.  If I'd had a T7/8 drink, I'd have been very hard-pressed to do the same though.</p>

[Terron]

<cite>Belaythien wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sure, crafting has become easier but I think many of you are exaggerating the difference. Even before RoK I could easily get to pristine just by spamming the same buttons again and again. I've always crafted while doing something else like surfing, watching TV, etc. There was no need to counter events before. I admit that sometimes an item was rather intractable and required a lot of durability buffs but in the end this never kept me from going pristine. <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Yes just getting pristine was too easy before, but as I said in the OP rush orders did require a little more attention.</span> Not that much has changed. I still have to remove my armor and jewelry and use totems/drinks or else I'll run out of power. I still get the occasional second best quality if I don't pay attention. The only real change is that you use less power than before. <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Removing armour and using totems/drinks wasn't necessary to get pristine before, and certainly isn't needed now even for rush orders (proved by experience). </span>To me crafting isn't about struggling to output items. It's about crafting the right items and finding out what yields most profit on the broker. Planning what resources to buy when, what products to make and how to sell best, that's a challenge. Producing items never has been one. These changes are great in my book. <span style="color: #ffcc00;">If that is what you enjoy then great for you. I don't. I liked the process of making items, and once again the fun involved in that has been reduced. There was a little challenge in producing items fast enough for a rush order before, now there is none. There were many good things for tradeskilling the last update, but making to process even easier to do was a very bad one. It was already too easy and needed making more challenging before. </span></blockquote>

[Pavahac]

I too find it a little easier, but the one thing I noticed is vitality drop. I think it drops faster than before which means you will loose your double xp in no time. Not sure if this is true or not or even mentioned in post.

[BlueDagger]

<p>Sadly, it has become extremely easy to craft now. Rush orderes are not an issue at all anymroe because without power conservation being an issue it basically becomes a factor of how many of X item do I have left.</p><p>I kinda miss the days of interdependant crafting, maybe it could be worked in for a new tier called "fabricated" or something of that nature. I don't think by any means that even a handcrafted and mastercrafted item should be as easy to make with only the item in it being the difficulty.</p>