PvP Balance Solution (I think I have got it)

[Rathious]

<p>I have been talking with people in the community and I have found that although eq2 is very well balanced why not make the playing field even by doing this. I propose that by allowing players to be any class they choose on either side. </p><p>The races would remain in the factions they are but this would open up the game experience across the board. I think that any good government would have hired hit men brigands and the ever loved Assiassian. </p><p>Why wouldn't freeport have swashbuklers maning there ships and templars healing there troops. I think by doing this it would balance the game, allowing the races to stay with there faction type and opening up the classes to both sides. This would not eliminate the need for exile or for the betrayal quests. It would simply open the option up to the player's to be a class that they would like to adventure and PvP with. I really think this would make the game even more fun and allow for more creative group to play with. The field would be lvled as far as freeport can't be this and this on the qeynosian side is way stronger and vice versusa. Just a suggestion. </p><p>If you support this Idea please post and let sony know this is something you are interested in seeing on PvP server's. </p><p>Thanks for your support,</p><p> Rathious DeLorean (Vox)</p><p>Sorry about the spelling in here I was busy but wanted to get this out there.</p>

[Gaeus]

    Well, it's interesting to read something different from the usual complaints about level locking, overpowered classes, etc.  But, the lore and the game do center around good/evil although a bit weakly...  And, to give all teams every class, essentially you are creating 2 more exile teams.  Instead, why not make exile temporary or simply remove the team altogether.  It's been proven exiles are stronger just look at the raid content they have conquered.  You want balanced teams, then weaken exile and make it what it was meant to be in the beginning which was a temporary stop for the player betraying to the other side.  Honestly, I don't care.  Exiles have no impact on my gaming experience and obviously many people enjoy being exile and playing it as a team in itself.  But, it does seem to come with some big advantages, and it also goes against the whole idea of good versus evil. 

[Xzerius]

<p>I have long had this idea in mind.  Why they allow races to betray and not classes is beyond me, and I have always thoguht that if they felt classes too were alignment based then why are there Qeynosian warlocks?  LOL</p><p>Anyway.......  allow classes to betray in the same manner as the races. Heck, let them do the same betrayal quest to do so as well IMO.</p>

[Gaeus]

    That's an interesting thought too, to allow classes to betray to the other side.  It still kind of defeats good versus evil which is what defines the two different teams from one another.  The classes define the differences of the two teams.

[Rathious]

<p>Well I understand that but really let's look at it from a kingdom prespective. I see all types of people in the court of king arthur. I understand this is not the best example but there is a dirty side to every kingdom. Those who stalk the shadows to kill and mug. There are all kinds of people in the world would it be that far fetched to allow all classes for both side and have the races be the seperator.</p><p>I am just purposing that it makes more since for races that get along to move to a city but classes are like jobs that people hold in the world adventure and crafting. I think that kingdoms would be made up of all kinds and types of people. The classes are a skill set why couldn't a inquisitor be in qeynos or a templar in freeport. They also already have classes like this guardian and berserker. Along with dirge and troubador, also the wizard and warlock. so really they already have this with alot of classes. This would help with the battle of nerfing that will only continue. </p><p>In my experience in MMORPG's of about 10+ years i have found that anytime one class is nerfed then another emerges more powerful. I have seen it a million times and then a ton of time is wasted in balancing while it could be spent developing groud-breaking content and adding to the games overall game-play experience. I would rather see all the resources they are wasting on this go to making new armor and weapons with cool particle effects and big beautiful cities. Things like that would benefit us all in the long run.</p><p>Well I am not saying this is the fix of all fixes but I think it is really a big step toward creating a better overall PvP experience. As for exile I think if you want to start the game as exile that shoudl be a choice also. People who are into FFA pvp will love that option because that is what being an exile is about not having a side. I give props to those player's. I think this would allow for a raid experience that would be good  for all sides and as i said earlier you want a darkelf in qeynos you still have to betray but he stays what you made the character to be no matter which way you want to go in the game.</p><p>example: you want to start as an exile you have to start as a neutral race and you can be any class you want. </p><p>example you want to be a dark-elf on the qeynos side brigand. You would do the betrayal quest as a darkelf brigand and become a dark-elf Qeynosian.</p><p>Example: High elf coercer starting in Qeynos nothing has to be done this is chosen at character creation high elf and then coercer as the class. </p><p>Those are just examples to give you the idea of what i am proposing. </p>

[Gaeus]

    I admit I see your point to the "dirty side" of every kingdom and, actually now that i think about it.... Agree it is a decent idea.  People complain that it makes the teams "boring and the same" but, it would actually diversify the fights because you would be fighting a larger range of different group setups.  I think it's a good idea but, can't see SOE ever doing something this drastic.

[wellehad0]

<p>it should not go by class if you are good or evil it should not go by race either it should be choosen at the start with side you choose to fight for. </p><p>that would make more since.. or heck you could even split things up into 3 sides instead of 2.. yes exile right now is sort of a side but we dont get any status nor any of the status perks that others do.. </p><p>exile right now is only for switching sides or just for the love of PVP or end game raids... i dont like the freep or the Q side so why should we be punished if we want to take on the world</p>

[Rathious]

<p>Well, If there is enough support like all the nerf this and nerf that then I would say sony will at least look at the idea. I would hope. anyway thanks for the support and like I said it might not be the big fix but i think it is a good step or at forward. I just don't want to see more classes weaked it starts to effect the population when you never know which class will get the nerf axe.</p>

[Novusod]

I have to endorse the OP's idea mainly because it only makes sense. There is no such thing as good and evil. Just go to a PvE server and look at all the Qeynos and Freeport classes grouping and raiding together. Good VS Evil is not the way the PvE game is played. It is fine to have a faction based PvP system but that factional system should not go squarely against how the PvE game is played.

[Darkor]

Im all for giving both factions all classes, no more argueing about balancing problems.

[Wytie]

Sure why not, would make things alot more interesting

[MaCloud1032]

for the most part i would agree  But personlay there are some classes that should not be grouped with other classes.  Iam sorry but a Shadow Knight is most defently evil and a Pally is a holly roller of good.  Necros are also totaly evil fondeling dead things and what not.

[Xzerius]

Yeah its definiately a double bladed sword, but............. theres people that betray a troll or ogre to Qeynos or  Dark Elves who's name mean nothing short of true evil and hatred. I think SOE sorta threw the whole concept of evil and good out the window a long time ago when they allowed race betrayals so they may as well go all out. I'm not for the choosing of such at character creation though. Id rather they had to betray to do so and at least keep some form of structure. Since playing on Venekor server it would be left up to the players to RP their choices of group mates. I for one would not group with a Templar or Pally for very obvious reasons.

[Rathious]

<p>I am bumping this up to the top agian becasue I want to see what others have to say. I really don't want this post to get lost in the swamp of the locking issue posts I really think this would help the balance of PvP. If anything I think it would serve to at least stop all the nerfing that has been going on. Then if you think such and such a class is overpowered you can play that class if you think there is a advantage to that class.</p><p>Stop the nerfing please support this I have reason to believe eq2 will end up like SWG if we don't do something with all the nerfing. A combat revamp or anymore nerfing I think will make the population smaller. I am sure some will be with me on this idea. Thanks in advance for your support on this topic.</p><p>Rathious Delorean </p><p>(exile going to qeynos, Darkelf, Brigand)</p>

[Roald]

Im no EQ2 lore geek, but I personally am very against this idea.Firstly, both sides are pretty much balanced imo. Of course you have some exceptions (eg ranger) but nothing major (assassins can be just as good).Secondly, and im not sure how to put this into words, but I like the 'good' classes being good, and 'evil' classes being evil. Imho, giving both sides access to all classes would ruin some of the atmosphere ub EQ2 PvP.

[ZhouyuTheGreat]

<cite>Twoblades@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>    That's an interesting thought too, to allow classes to betray to the other side.  It still kind of defeats good versus evil which is what defines the two different teams from one another.  The classes define the differences of the two teams.</blockquote><i>and then ....they allowed pvp players to have exile as a faction. Now its good vs evil vs uber leet gamers :p</i>

[Vodekki]

<p>The arguement that X class would never group with Y class can also be said of races.....high elfs would never group with dark elfs, nor iksars with halflings...but that is already ingame, and I see them all group and travel together, regardless. The roleplay aspect is already saturated with racial betrayers, to the point I don't even think much at all if i see a dwarf, wood elf, or what ever, in freeport.</p><p>It is roleplay....plenty of what being in freeport means is not innately "evil" in a spiritual sense, but also includes thievery, trickery, and even sheer desire to not have to live by the rules.</p><p> I certainly can roleplay that a skilled swashbuckler could have such tendacies, or paladin deemed reckless and without mercy got cast out and found refuge in freeport.</p><p> The illusionist caught using his slight of hand to sell "Ornate wares", that are really just plain pottery, finds his scams less governed in east freeport. </p><p> A skilled archer ( ranger ) goes insane, begins sniping people from the rooftops of Eldergrove, escapes the linch mob and looses himself in freeport to avoid justice. (( Realistically, would this fellow suddenly forget honed archery skills just by passing through wfp gates? ))</p><p>The high elf templar, following her high elvin brother turned assasin to freeport, originally to convince him to return, then falls in love with some savy shadowknight, and can't bare to leave him. She'd continue to use her divine powers to heal others, whom to her aren't "so bad after all".</p><p>And, the roleplay opportunities would be great....the shadowknight, brought into a qeynosian guild, and the templar / paladin members continuously are skeptical of his intentions, openly scorning his "methods", though he truely want's victory for Qeynos, if only to end the bloodshed, etc etc.</p><p>I personally, only see this class restriction, for the most part, as detrimental to the pvp server players being able to raid optimally within the design of raid zones. And let's face it, a good portion of the population in freeport and Qeynos would love to be able to reach the hardest zones. Most actually do enjoy a mix of pvp and pve, but currantly the pve part of our gaming suffers due to class availability.</p>

[Rathious]

<p>Very nice post. I tried earlier to give examples but your examples are much better and this is what I am talking about . We all played on pve when the game released and saw freeports and Q's group up all the time even on PvE rp server I started on Ant bayle. You said it best though with the examples you gave it would eliminate all the bs and get the player's back to playing. I personally would love to have a shadowknight on vox. I wouldn't choose it because it is leet or whatever. I would choose it because I want to play a shadowknight that uses his powers and strengths to help the qeynosian side.</p><p>I guess my feelings are why not allow us to have more options in the game along with helping balancing of the pvp game and also allowing the player's to take advantage of all the classes for raid content. It really works to everyones advantage good, evil, or exile.</p><p> Another advantage is people would prolly roll some new toons and there would once agian be life at all lvls to pvp with. This is speculation but I think that may encourage new player's to come to the server also if they know there are player's who will be there lvl, to play with or agianst. </p>

[We_want_your_soul]

They should do this, and make all factions FFA. So if you ARE in Freeport and you don't like that Paladin right there just kill em. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Personally I just want to make my Shadowknight a Paladin and be able to raid in Freeport.

[Rathious]

<p>They have free for all it is called exile. I think that it is cool, i have a exile toon he is low but it is crazy all the people and any lvl people that will kill you I laugh so hard man. I think it is funny as heck when a lvl 70 one shots me just running along lol. I am being serious. To me eq2 is a game and it is meant to be fun and taken with a grain of salt.</p>

[We_want_your_soul]

On a more serious note.I was thinking more and more about it. Allow anyone from any faction to talk, group, raid together. People enforced alliances always > faction systems.

[Rathious]

<p>well in a pvp enviroment and in raiding I think the biggest problem would be the targeting in that situation they would have to write coudl with alot of if's in it. If you can't understand it that is used to determine what the program would do that would take some time I think with the classes being avialable to all the factions (qeynosian, freeport, and exile) this would be enough to keep factions seperate for pvp and allow for the player's of each faction to take advantage of all the classes while also supporting the pvp balancing issue.</p><p>The classes together thing is already on the PvE servers. I just don't want to see any of the server's go in the okie well freeports and qeynosians can group together and talk on a PvP server. PvP server's need some seperation but need to allow user's to do the same content as a PvE server allows. This is just my take in actuality. I like the rules to PvP server's now but I am tiried of making character's and they get nerfed and start another one and it gets nerfed. I think if they would have left PvP as it was it would have been fine with me. I could care less if a scout evacs or people have run speed but all the nerfing has to stop.</p><p>Here is my actual take on the entire thing as a whole the PvP rule set when the server came up was fine. I personally feel if you think one class is stronger then another go play it you have that choice. If you want to evac in battle that is fine if you want to gate camp that is cool to. I really don't give a darn. I PvP all the time the nature of the PvP server's is you are going to die. You will get names ganked out on you. All classes are different and that is something you get to choose is your class. Have i seen overpowered classes yeah, but really if you know you can't beat that guy solo, or you get ganked alot in a certian area plain and simple leave the area, or avoid the person who is killing you. It is simple if you got your butt kicked everytime you walked down an alley or through the woods in RL would you go that way knowing you are putting yourself in danger of getting it once agian? I think not, My true feelings are that the people who want this class and that nerfed are the idiots who decide they won't leave the area and get griefed for it. Truely people I am being for real here. I just don't understand the whole thing about people who disable xp either. I have done it a million times so i can gain more faction or so I can get quests done and recieve the proper xp for them. I have a lvl 15 dirge i PvP with because I have no desire to PvP at lvl 70 anymore hence selling my character. </p><p>I have personal belief that the nerfing and changing rules could stop and the game would be fine. Really if a ranger or another scout kills you get over it and move on. Somedays you will get killed a million times. Others you won't get hit at all. If you have to leave a zone that you need a quest in o well this is PvP server this thing happens. If it means that much to you to get it done take the licks and finish the quest. If you can do it another day then do it another day. </p><p>Also to address titles. Titles really mean crap to me. I figure if I am getting it out there then I may as well let it fly. I see people running around with all there titles and that is great I am really happy for you. Here is my problem with titles it turns player's into wimps. I would have never even put them in the game. #1 titles should be given by the number of kills you have not by the whole fame system(it is truely the biggest steaming pile of garbage I have ever seen. If this title system was set to the number of kills you have and no the fame you have gained I feel it would give a more accurate depiction on how much PvP you have actually done. </p><p>anyway /rant off</p><p>I still stand behind the Idea I proposed I could sit and point out flaws in a million games all day long and [Removed for Content] and [Removed for Content] and [Removed for Content] but really it doesn't matter to me. If you like the game good ( I personally love the game in it's current state. This is coming from a guardian who PvP's well used to sold that toon). I am sick of the nerf this nerf that . Let the player's be what they want and choose a city to start in to determine there faction. I am up for anything that doesn't nerf everyone over and over.</p><p>/rant on</p><p>If people think certian classes are overpowered then play that class. If you say I would but i want to be freeport ranger or I would cause I want to be (insert freeport class here) in Qeynos. This means you support this Idea. If it is cause you are attached to the toon you are playing then play your toon and shut-up or get a group to run with. The constant nerfing really turns the player base away. I am surely leaving eq2 if it keep's up. Remember that cool MMO called Star wars gallaxies that they changed so much it became a different game all the Burger king folks out there this is eq2 please just enjoy the game I can tell you 12 million things to improve the game to how I want it but then agian maybe the other player's don't want that change. </p><p>/rant off</p><p>there is always the option of going back to PvE if the PvP rules hurt so bad you can't bear it.</p>

[Cloakentuna]

<p>I completely agree on most points of this post.  I do not think however that Pallys, SKs, and Necros should be allowed out of their respective starting citys as their class.  I'm not big into the whole lore thing, but a holy warrior in an evil city just does not seem right, same with the others whose lives revolve around death and decay in a good city.  However, why a Thug cannot be good yet a Pirate can makes no sense to me.  Why Rangers are defined as good kind of blows my mind as well, and seeing as how even good people have assassins on their side (/cough CIA /cough <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), I don't see why Assassins cannot be evil as well.</p><p>Just my 2c</p>

[Lord Gibeau]

<p>I think this is an amazing idea. The end of "I cant beat him because he is a Brigand and I am a Ranger", Or "he is an Illusionist and I am a Coercer." Be part of any city, use the gear from any city, the class is irrelevant. Here in America, we have what is known as the separation of Church and State, meaning you can practice any religion you want, any profession you want. There are consequences for being a law breaker, and the game has this already built in. Make certain "classes" have a little (or Alot) worse faction with whatever city they happen to be in, making it more realistic. A sortof you can live here as this class or that class, but dont get caught screwing up, or your faction will get steadily worse, making it hard to come home, if not impossible. </p><p>Paladins are not viewed nor would they be viewed as all that neat of a thing to have around in Freeport, and Vice Versa in Qeynos. Not everybody is a good guy or a bad guy, "it is how they were raised" etc etc, so on and so forth.  Every city has people with a crappy, or self centered (exiles) outlook on life, and every city has an element of just plain evil (evil classes) While the same is true of inherently good people. Why not Paladin and Templar Missionaries in Freeport? Defiler and Shadowknight Missionaries in Qeynos? Drifters that run the wastelands not giving one whit who you are or where you are from, just looking to take your stuff?</p><p>This idea has so many amazing possibilities. Imagine taking a faction hit for as long as you are grouped with that brigand, or Coercer. Have they been bad? Qeynos Guard not like them all that much? Guild by Association my good man!!!</p><p>Awesome post Rath, eliminate all the whimpering and whining about who is tougher and stronger and who needs to be nerfed, blah blah blah, just make that class if you think they are so amazingly tough, and continue to be who you are inherently. WOW.</p>

[1000xZe]

I think this is a very good idea.Think of it in this way, what is good to one is maybe evil to another. A Paladin of Marr is very evil to someone from Freeport.Think of Paladin as Knight of Restoration and Shadowknights as Knights of Destruction. This makes it viable to both sides.Aragorn raised the Dead to fight in defence of Minas Tirith. Does that make him a Necromancer?I like the idea that people can pick from all 3 sides as a starting city.