At what level is skill a requirement for PVP

[Fodslad]

Certainly not T2 as far more skill is required to play quake or battlefield then this laughable gankfest. So at what level does skill actually come into play in EQ2?

[IcterusGalbula]

<p>I think some degree of skill is required even in Tier 1.</p><p>I twinked a Tier 1 warden and if I remember correctly I was able to kill mobs 4 levels higher than myself.</p><p>I've more-or-less now twinked a Tier 1 shadowknight and he is lucky to kill a mob 3 levels higher than himself.</p><p>In my mind the skill comes from knowing the best sequence in which to use the spells or attacks... how to maximize the damage you can do with what you've got.</p><p>Granted there is no skill whatsoever involved when a level 14 twink takes on a level 10 newbie, unless you count the knowledge to twink in the first place to be a skill.</p><p>Since this is related, I'll mention I've seen a lot of Tier 2 Fabled items available on one broker in particular.  I need to determine whether my Shadowknight would be better off buying Fabled gear vs MC gear.  Believe it or not, the Fabled gear is cheaper.</p><p>I also need to determine whether to continue to equip my Shadowknight with a bow once he reaches Tier 2.</p><p>Those kinds of questions (which gear is best?) reflect skill to some degree I think.</p>

[Toadley]

<p>It depends how you define skill but to be successful in this game you need to know your class, other classes, and when/how to use your combat arts. </p><p><b>knowledge = skill</b> in this game</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Certainly not T2 as far more skill is required to play quake or battlefield then this laughable gankfest. So at what level does skill actually come into play in EQ2?</blockquote><p>nice try at a troll.</p><p>skill is required at all levels.. </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

I guess you got killed pvping on a pvp server?

[Ze]

<p>Truth is, the above flamebait troll is right on one thing - skill is not the first determinant of any fight... Gear and spells are, skills only come into play when two players, or two groups, are well matched - and that is rare. I bet you anyone of us would be able to predict the outcome of, let's say, 90%+ of the matchups that might happen WITHIN the allowable level ranges. </p><p>But that is the way it is supposed to be. After all, skill might not directly impact a fight, but skill (especially if we accept the above knowledge=skill) does impact the type of gear/spells a player might have. And skill, in any MMORPG, should also have a social dimension - hence, if you are skilled at socializing, you won't be alone when you get jumped by a full group of gankers.</p><p>Skill, in an MMORPG, is not response time, or reflexes, or hand-eye coordination. </p><p>Now, where the whole knowledge=skill equation falls apart is when we take into account ebayed plat. That is, you might be the most knowledgeable player around, but when you are outgeared, there is no hope - or almost. Knowledge has a very marginal effect, at that point. </p><p>It would be interesting to see, actually, how high is the degree of correlation between pvp kvd and amount spent on gear. My money is on a highly significant rho fo at least .75-.8. And I bet you could build a pretty [Removed for Content] good model if you added class-average KvD in the equation. Yes, I am speculating and pulling numbers out of my [Removed for Content]. Now, if SoE would be so nice to provide us with some inside data, I bet you we would find some interesting patterns. </p><p>And finally, how much is there to really learn? EQ2 pvp has been simplified to the bare-bone, to the point that all creativity in pvp has been marginalized. I have been pvping in EQ/EQ2 since day one, yet, I bet you anyone coming in could learn everything I know in a handful of months. There used to be complexity in pvp, but it has been nerfed into oblivion. Now, it is all about repeating a pre-set sequence of combos - the two biggest "skills" in pvp are:</p><p>1) deciding whether to fight or flee (not trivial, as you need to guesstimate the class of your opponent and his level of gear BEFORE you attack)</p><p>2) related to the above, identifying the class of your opponent and recalling the pre-memorized sequence of actions that best matches it. </p><p>Don't get me wrong. I am having fun. But I don't delude myself into thinking I am more skilled than the majority of my opponents. I just play a brigand, that's all. </p>

[Mildavyn]

<p>Gear - Your armor, jewelery, weapons and spells.Skill - Class knowledge... knowing what to do and when.Class - What class you are playing at the time.Lag/Reaction time - how long it takes for you to react to something your opponent has done.</p><p>Assuming a 1v1 fight, the things listed above are what goes into deciding who wins. Having said that, there is very little skill involved in T2 fights. You have what... 6-7 buttons to press? In T2 it is ALL about gear, class and reaction times... atleast 50% of what determines winner and loser is gear. The other 50% I would say is split between Class and lag-time.</p><p>This is (IMO) due to the different diminishing returns curves. If your opponent has got 50 STA more than you at level 15, it's a sizeable difference, especially since your CAs are hitting for only a fraction of that. 50 STA at level 70 is like small change. It will (maybe) give you another 200 hitpoints, meanwhile joe-schmoe from down the road can hit you with his auto-attack for 300-400 twice every 3 seconds. Jack-schmack from accross the road meanwhile is nuking people for 2000-3000 every 5 seconds.</p><p>The difference in gear is alot smaller when you get higher in level, leaving more room for other things to effect the winner. Skill however cannot be measured and as such, there will never be a consensus as to how much of a fight is based on skill and how much of it is based on who has better gear or lag times.</p>

[Fodslad]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Certainly not T2 as far more skill is required to play quake or battlefield then this laughable gankfest. So at what level does skill actually come into play in EQ2?</blockquote><p>nice try at a troll.</p><p>skill is required at all levels.. </p></blockquote>Hmmm let me guess your a level 14 twinked Scout. Heheh.

[Fodslad]

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess you got killed pvping on a pvp server?</blockquote><p>Many times as a matter of fact but I don't mind dying at all what I don't like is the fact that it is near impossible now to find low level guilds/freinds that want to level up to 70 which is what interests me the most.</p><p>As a matter of fact the last two times I have played I have seen players asking if there were any guilds that actually were leveling up characters. Surprised that he got no responses?</p><p>And don't delude yourselves, there is little to no skill prior to level 20 I mean you only have 2 or 3 buttons to mash. You pay your money so you can play any way you like as far as I am concerned it just that the 3 friends I convinced to give the game a try said that they were not interested in turning off EXP in order to be competitive so off to Hellgate they went.</p>

[SumOldMan]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Certainly not T2 as far more skill is required to play quake or battlefield then this laughable gankfest. So at what level does skill actually come into play in EQ2?</blockquote><p>nice try at a troll.</p><p>skill is required at all levels.. </p></blockquote><p>Not really -- skill is not required at all. I would disagree with Paikis slightly -- but he is mostly right, the important things are ...</p><p>Gear/Spells/CA's</p><p>Class youre playing</p><p>Reaction/Lag time</p>

[Bloodfa]

It's a shame and a loss for your friends that left, then.  You <i>don't</i> need to turn off your XP to level up.  Sure, it helps for AP's, but my Swashy made 70 just fine.  My Warden's at 40 and comfy, my monk at 32 and wondering if he's going to become a whole lot busier if the locking change goes through or not.  In regards to finding a low-level guild, perhaps you went about it the wrong way.  Just because a guild is level 60 doesn't mean that you need to be level 50 to join.  Ours, for example, is open to people at 20.  Depends on the guild.  For us, at least in my opinion, it's more about loyalty than anything else.  I'd rather take on 5 new(ish) players at 20 than a 70 who's known to guild hop or even worse, betray back and forth because they're flighty.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Certainly not T2 as far more skill is required to play quake or battlefield then this laughable gankfest. So at what level does skill actually come into play in EQ2?</blockquote><p>nice try at a troll.</p><p>skill is required at all levels.. </p></blockquote>Hmmm let me guess your a level 14 twinked Scout. Heheh.</blockquote><p>Hmmm let me guess your a guy who cant muster up the ability to get better gear than the shell earing, and then likes to [Removed for Content] and moan about skill?</p><p>wait, not a guess, sorry..</p>

[ladyvengeance]

<p>I'm done arguing about this. There must have been at least 10 different threads in the past 2 weeks talking about level locking, and I'm sick of arguing the same points with the same people. Like I've said before, this forum population makes up less than 1% of the the EQ2 population, so I doubt one can judge the opinions of people on the servers based on what is posted on here. </p><p>I'll state my position once more, and then that's it - I'm ignoring the forums for awhile. I have toons locked in several different tiers. Why? So I can experience more of the game. If I had 7 toons at 70, what's the fun in that? I pvp in the same zones fighting the same people. By locking in different tiers, I get to see different players pvping in different zones. Removing level locking removes this fun. And I'm not talking about killing noobs. Those of you who make 14s just to kill noobs should be ashamed. </p><p>But the fact is that it's not hard to make a twink. Go out and harvest some rares, get into a good guild and have someone make you some MC gear and adept 3s - then you're sorted. It took me less than a week to do this when I first began. Noobs may get upset about getting owned - well, that's a part of pvp. I just made a ranger and am getting owned hard because I'm brand new to the class. I've died as many times as I've killed people. Am I going to quit over this? No. I'm going to keep practicing until I get better.</p><p>If level locking is removed it will solve nothing. People will still pvp at lvl 17 - they'll just re-roll when they start to level.  The majority of the anti-locking campaign (whiners) I imagine have a few level 70s and are just jealous of T1-3 because there's more pvp there.</p><p>I guess we'll all find out next week what SOE has in store for us when the expansion comes out. </p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess you got killed pvping on a pvp server?</blockquote><p>Many times as a matter of fact but I don't mind dying at all what I don't like is the fact that it is near impossible now to find low level guilds/freinds that want to level up to 70 which is what interests me the most.</p><p>As a matter of fact the last two times I have played I have seen players asking if there were any guilds that actually were leveling up characters. Surprised that he got no responses?</p><p>And don't delude yourselves, there is little to no skill prior to level 20 I mean you only have 2 or 3 buttons to mash. You pay your money so you can play any way you like as far as I am concerned it just that the 3 friends I convinced to give the game a try said that they were not interested in turning off EXP in order to be competitive so off to Hellgate they went.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think level locking is a requirement in order to be competitive.  Of my 2 70 characters, one leveled to 70 normally, the other level locked.  I hated being level locked, I like leveling.  The second 'set' of characters my friends and I leveled were not horribly twinked, either, but we had played this game for quite awhile and understood how it worked.</p><p>Sure, you only have a few buttons to mash before level 20, but I suggest that if that's all that you think that goes into PvP skill, therein lies your trouble.  Not the game or the community.   It's less about how you use your combat abilities and a lot about how you use terrain, awareness, guile and in some cases out and out lack of mercy in how you approach a fight.   No one is going to play by your rules - they will play by their own.    If you have a code, that's fine..but that doesn't mean everyone else will honor it.   </p><p>Many people have completely pwned their tiers (level locked or not) in less than twinked gear because they were clever about playing the game.  Not how they mashed the 3 spell buttons they had...but the whole package.   </p><p>You and your 3 friends represent a nice amount for group pvping.  You could have formed your own guild.  How long did you look for one?  Many older, established guilds see those under level 20 looking for a guild and that = they want a free ride with stuff. Asking /ooc in a zone or in a channel chat might not be enough for the guilds you'd probably really want to be part of..to offer you membership.    I can think of 2 guilds on both evil and good sides (at least on Venekor) that welcome and support new members.   I'm sure the larger population of Nagafen is similar.  Makes me wonder how hard you actually looked using the guild recruitment tools before your first post in this thread - where you state that all this is a matter of fact.   I've never had this experience, so it's less 'fact' and more 'opinion'.</p><p>Sorry you didn't like the game...it can be frustrating, agreed, but it's basically a good one.  </p><p>Yes my question was flippant, but that's what it boils down to, in my experience.</p>

[XustinuS]

well as well as your own class skill knowledge....  also knwing opponent class skills helps.... and u must knw some of the spell effects...   especially i feel that when a   wiz starting fusion some grp mates going on him to take the hit while on ths semi long casting u have a chance to got away frm its range to a safe range... so many thngs help also sometimes combat log helps but you have to remove autoattacks... to see if a high recast spell of opponent is still up or not

[Grimfort]

<cite>ladyvengeance wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If level locking is removed it will solve nothing. People will still pvp at lvl 17 - they'll just re-roll when they start to level.  The majority of the anti-locking campaign (whiners) I imagine have a few level 70s and are just jealous of T1-3 because there's more pvp there.</p></blockquote>You actually just answered your own question. If a lvl 17 rerolls to stay at a low level, then they wave goodbye to the huge advantage they had with fully masters, maxed AA, fully fabled/legendary, thus giving one smidgen of a chance to those around them to actually fight rather than fall at the first sight of the twinked uberness.

[Wytie]

<p>Skill is never a requirement for pvp imo</p><p>I think what you mean is....  At what level does skill become noticeable in pvp? now the answer to that quest would be level 10. Why? Well that when pvp starts.</p><p>If your a new level 10 with no gear at all, out in DLW right after everyone gets home trying to do quest solo with app 1's. Then wonder why you get ganked so much and cant win any fights vs oranges and yellows and wonder why they wont let you do your quest. Then my guess is you have no skill. As someone who did, would know better....    Catch my drift?</p>

[Armironhead]

<cite>Zerp wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Truth is, the above flamebait troll is right on one thing - skill is not the first determinant of any fight... Gear and spells are, skills only come into play when two players, or two groups, are well matched - and that is rare. I bet you anyone of us would be able to predict the outcome of, let's say, 90%+ of the matchups that might happen WITHIN the allowable level ranges. </p><p>But that is the way it is supposed to be. After all, skill might not directly impact a fight, but skill (especially if we accept the above knowledge=skill) does impact the type of gear/spells a player might have. And skill, in any MMORPG, should also have a social dimension - hence, if you are skilled at socializing, you won't be alone when you get jumped by a full group of gankers.</p><p>Skill, in an MMORPG, is not response time, or reflexes, or hand-eye coordination. </p><p>Now, where the whole knowledge=skill equation falls apart is when we take into account ebayed plat. That is, you might be the most knowledgeable player around, but when you are outgeared, there is no hope - or almost. Knowledge has a very marginal effect, at that point. </p><p>It would be interesting to see, actually, how high is the degree of correlation between pvp kvd and amount spent on gear. My money is on a highly significant rho fo at least .75-.8. And I bet you could build a pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] good model if you added class-average KvD in the equation. Yes, I am speculating and pulling numbers out of my [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Now, if SoE would be so nice to provide us with some inside data, I bet you we would find some interesting patterns. </p><p>And finally, how much is there to really learn? EQ2 pvp has been simplified to the bare-bone, to the point that all creativity in pvp has been marginalized. I have been pvping in EQ/EQ2 since day one, yet, I bet you anyone coming in could learn everything I know in a handful of months. There used to be complexity in pvp, but it has been nerfed into oblivion. Now, it is all about repeating a pre-set sequence of combos - the two biggest "skills" in pvp are:</p><p>1) deciding whether to fight or flee (not trivial, as you need to guesstimate the class of your opponent and his level of gear BEFORE you attack)</p><p>2) related to the above, identifying the class of your opponent and recalling the pre-memorized sequence of actions that best matches it. </p><p>Don't get me wrong. I am having fun. But I don't delude myself into thinking I am more skilled than the majority of my opponents. I just play a brigand, that's all. </p></blockquote>Most of the "skill" in the pvp side of the game comes from determining the conditions in which you fight.  For instance, if there is some higher con who you know you cant beat 1v1, you have to come up with a plan to kill him -- you can bait him into a fight while your buddies fly over from another island in kos or use the grif in ant or cl, you can wait until he pulls lots of mobs while pve'ing, you can (if you have a range game) get to some area not easily accesible and hit him from there, you can try and lead him into favorible territory where you can perhaps knock him off the chain or island, etc.  So while the game is generally predictable in terms of one v. one combat if there are no outside influences, the game becomes unpredicatble in the game world.  (I know some of these are t7 things -- but as i recall similar ideas for combat were used in t2). The skill involved is in figuring out a way to overcome the obstacles imposed by the limits of the game.

[Fodslad]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Certainly not T2 as far more skill is required to play quake or battlefield then this laughable gankfest. So at what level does skill actually come into play in EQ2?</blockquote><p>nice try at a troll.</p><p>skill is required at all levels.. </p></blockquote>Hmmm let me guess your a level 14 twinked Scout. Heheh.</blockquote><p>Hmmm let me guess your a guy who cant muster up the ability to get better gear than the shell earing, and then likes to [I cannot control my vocabulary] and moan about skill?</p><p>wait, not a guess, sorry..</p></blockquote><p>Actually your guess is wrong Boz. My Level 28 jeweler has raised over 18 plat so most of my guys are mastercrafted and adept3. Which is what everyone recommends. Well this is fine if your grouped it is simply not going to give you a great solo record if you are non-scout based and there in lies the biggest problem.</p><p> Sony has done everything possible to create solo content and be solo freindly. The current state of PVP is not solo freindly. I have grouped with my level 15 warlock (adept3, mastercrafted) and bowled over everything from green to orange cons in the commonlands. (Guess the scouts job was to pick out singles and doubles wasn't sure just followed.) made hunter in a day and then parked him, boring.</p><p>Don't want to get in a pi$$$ing match with you because you obviously enjoy the game in it's current state. I thought FFA in Vanguard was far better unfortunately the game world was to empty and doesn't have the eq lore that I love.</p><p>I am not whining about getting ganked I am whining because I wish there was another option for a more interesting PVP format.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Fodslad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Actually your guess is wrong Boz. My Level 28 jeweler has raised over 18 plat so most of my guys are mastercrafted and adept3. Which is what everyone recommends. Well this is fine if your grouped it is simply not going to give you a great solo record if you are non-scout based and there in lies the biggest problem.</p><p> Sony has done everything possible to create solo content and be solo freindly. The current state of PVP is not solo freindly. I have grouped with my level 15 warlock (adept3, mastercrafted) and bowled over everything from green to orange cons in the commonlands. (Guess the scouts job was to pick out singles and doubles wasn't sure just followed.) made hunter in a day and then parked him, boring.</p><p>Don't want to get in a pi$$$ing match with you because you obviously enjoy the game in it's current state. I thought FFA in Vanguard was far better unfortunately the game world was to empty and doesn't have the eq lore that I love.</p><p>I am not whining about getting ganked I am whining because I wish there was another option for a more interesting PVP format.</p></blockquote><p>so you're whining because you can't solo on a pvp server?</p><p>That's got NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.</p><p>btw.. people skills are skills too.  make some friends.. there ya go, required at lvl 10 for pvp - "soft skills" as we call them in the professional world.</p><p>P.S. i solo'd most of my toons to desty or champ by lvl 16, with only occasional grouping.  2 scouts, 4 non scouts.</p>

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>btw.. people skills are skills too.  make some friends.. there ya go, required at lvl 10 for pvp - "soft skills" as we call them in the professional world.</p></blockquote>Well said