Simplified Crafting: For the ease of development

[LadyEternity]

<p>Test is not working, so sitting here I had some time to brood on things as I read the forums. I read a post that mentioned wardens needed str/sta/wis leather, for melee wardens. And the first thing that popped into my mind was "Man I am glad I don't have to code all those armorsets into the crafting system". And it got me to considering things.</p><p>Right now we have all these different suits of armor right? And if we need a different bunch of stats, then the crafter dev has to input all those new sets, as well as get the art assests attached to them. They are doing away with the different QL's which is great, that will simplify things. But I think the entire system could be made even easier.</p><p>You know how in jewel crafting you make a standard 'ring' and the imbue determines the rest? Well how about doing that for armor and all.</p><p>You could have a standardized suit. One for Mastercrafted, one for normal. (lets use armorcrafting as the example..but this could work for all kinds of gear). The standardized suits would have the basics. Mit and all that. No stats. It would be 'plain jane'. Now that the armor is finished, the crafter can apply the imbue...just like they normally would. </p><p>Ok so. Lets say Sally the armorsmith creates a imbued pristine ebony vanguard breastplate. It has NO stats at all. None. It's a imbued pristine ebony vanguard breastplate we are all familiar with, minus the the stat uppers/hp and mana/ resistances. So Sally gives it to Jim. Jim is an inquisitor specc'd for melee. We walks over to the enchant vendor and buys a str gem, a wis gem and a stam gem, a magic res gem, a combo hp/mana gem and splurges on an expensive gem that adds +1 to mana regen in combat. He uses each one and adds them to his breastplate. Creating the breastplate he wanted. When the gems were applied the game read the level of the item and that it was mastercrafted and auotmatically put the appropriate amount of each stat and so on for that level of mastercrafted item.</p><p>You would have a gem for each stat. A gem for each resistance. Perhaps specialty gems that had neat bonuses but cost alot more. And crafted standardized gear. It would cut down the amount of work that would have to go into making new armor sets. For variety, you could allow the crafter to choose the item model when they made the item. That way they could make standized crafts that had variety of models. And this gem enchantment idea would allow people to customize thier gear they way THEY want. Giving freedom to the player is always a good thing. Not to mention it would make crafted gear highly desirable.</p><p>Oh and to ensure that a peice didn't become uber or anything, there would have to be a limit to how many gems for specific things could be added. So say...3 stat gems max. 1 straight hp gem or 1 straight mana gem or 1 hp/mana gem combo, and 3 or 4 resistance gems. Only 1 specialty gem. (regen, defense, weapon skill, casting skill that kind of thing)</p><p>So anyway. There's my idea. Hehe.</p><p>Blacksabath</p>

[Oakleafe]

Let me get this straight.  To simplify crafting you are removing everything that exists at the moment and introducing new crafting items "gems", which are applied in a manner than does not currently exist in game?Y'know, I was with you as far as the example with rings - but introducing the gems left me cold.  Just out of curiosity did you think that up all by yourself or have you borrowed the idea from another game?  Certainly sounds like something I've read in a PC Zone game review.If you work your theory through to its logical conclusion you will, hopefully, realise that you are actually making crafting <u>more</u> complicated for the devs.  Currently they just create set recipes for the given items for specific craft classes.  In your example they would have to allow every single player the ability to make items with every possible combination of gems, which would be far more than the number of items currently in existence.First problem with simplifying any crafting is that you are likely to decrease the number of items available for crafters to make.  If you do this it decreases the XP available from making first-time pristines.  This makes crafters upset.Having read Domino's blog, which described how the recipes are generated then I think the simplification needs to be made on the development side.  i.e. Don't change the actual recipes but streamline how those recipes are generated.  Don't stifle the developers imagination and creativity by decreasing the number of items in a game.

[zaneluke]

I actualy read and understand your post.Gems = adornments in a sense. Honestly we have an armor based craft system that is pretty good, and crafted sets hold yu over until you can get class sets from instances. The variety in making your armor a specific way is adornments, which imho is plenty.

[SilkenKidden]

The game already has such a system.  Don't adornments do what you describe?

[LadyEternity]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me get this straight.  To simplify crafting you are removing everything that exists at the moment and introducing new crafting items "gems", which are applied in a manner than does not currently exist in game?Y'know, I was with you as far as the example with rings - but introducing the gems left me cold.  Just out of curiosity did you think that up all by yourself or have you borrowed the idea from another game?  Certainly sounds like something I've read in a PC Zone game review.If you work your theory through to its logical conclusion you will, hopefully, realise that you are actually making crafting <u>more</u> complicated for the devs.  Currently they just create set recipes for the given items for specific craft classes.  In your example they would have to allow every single player the ability to make items with every possible combination of gems, which would be far more than the number of items currently in existence.First problem with simplifying any crafting is that you are likely to decrease the number of items available for crafters to make.  If you do this it decreases the XP available from making first-time pristines.  This makes crafters upset.Having read Domino's blog, which described how the recipes are generated then I think the simplification needs to be made on the development side.  i.e. Don't change the actual recipes but streamline how those recipes are generated.  Don't stifle the developers imagination and creativity by decreasing the number of items in a game.</blockquote><p>Let me ask you something. What does it entail to introduce a new stat layout set for armor?</p><p>Doesn't the TS dev have to not only create each piece of the set, but also input the models for the armor, create the entries in the TS volumes for both mastercrafted and normal and actually attach each particular piece to the actual TS machine, and link all the icons? Probably more then that actually, sense I do not know all the special things they have to do.</p><p>That's alot of work just to get a different stat combination of armor. Not to mention the introduction of new models to the pool means having items attached to them.</p><p>With this other way it would be easier. Each tier would have a basic set and a master crafted set for each equipment type. The TSer would be able to select the model choice upon initiation of the pattern. And they would be able to imbue the base product if applicable. But further enhancement would come from the end user, or selected by the TSer whom created the product via the gems. And there would only be a small pool of gems to basically cover all the typical enhancements currently already found on equipment. There would be some coding..scripting whatever involved in getting the item level determination for the amount added with a gem based on the crafted item level and its normal or mastercrafted status. But it would be alot less cumbersome to add to it as time went on, if levels are raised or whatever then it is to add in a ton of new recipies each time people want a different stat line up or someone gets artsy fartsy and creates a new model set.</p><p>It would not only make it extreamly easy to impliment new armor designs into the TS system. But this system would readily support any stat need or combination of resistances or HP/Mana that any class might need now or further down the line as the game matures.</p><p>The crafting experience issue would ofcourse have to be addressed and rebalanced. Obviously there would be less patterns (which is what we want as it makes it easier for the development...as long as it doesn't really actually take away variety..which this wouldn't, if anything it would create a ton MORE variety). Thus the exp per item made would have to be increased to adjust for the smaller amount of 'first time' creations.</p><p>This would help crafters in tailoring, weaponsmithing, armorsmithing and woodworking. Craftables would be in more demand as suddenly you could have control over what your item has on it...and what it looks like. It's a shame the crafter couldn't choose a tint for the piece along with the model used, as that would be neat also.</p><p>As for where I got the idea from, it just occured to me. I know it takes alot of work to input new recipies. Also, as a crafter I wish I had, and my customers had more control over what they get. I've always been a firm believer in power to the player.</p><p>Blacksabath</p>

[Oakleafe]

<cite>LadyEternity wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Let me ask you something. What does it entail to introduce a new stat layout set for armor?<p>Doesn't the TS dev have to not only create each piece of the set, but also input the models for the armor, create the entries in the TS volumes for both mastercrafted and normal and actually attach each particular piece to the actual TS machine, and link all the icons? Probably more then that actually, sense I do not know all the special things they have to do.</p><p>That's alot of work just to get a different stat combination of armor. Not to mention the introduction of new models to the pool means having items attached to them.</p></blockquote>I have to admit that the way I'd interpreted your original post is that the contraints of the current system would mean that all of the above processes would have to be done for each possible result of gem usage, which as I tried to explain would be more work than the current system.However, on reflection and having read your reply and the mention of adornments I guess an enhanced adornment(ish) system is what you are suggesting, except that the gems would be vendor purchases rather than created via sub-tradeskill.I still see two huge negatives though.1. Fewer recipes for the crafters (seems to me that this idea would drop the armour recipes, for example, down to just 14 handcrafted and 14 mastercrafted per level i.e. 1 set of plate & 1 set of chainmail - or am I still missing something?)2. A re-write of the current system (which I can't see them doing any time soon)But I do see the positive aspect where it would be easier to maintain as you introduce new levels etc. (Level 100 here we come!).Just to help clarify part of your idea for me .....Currently:. In the stats stake you can have items that have many stats, but for low values (the jeweler crafted belts spring to mind).  . You can buy items that just have one main stat, but for a higher relative value (e.g. spellbinder staff).  . You can buy items that have a few stats for a value in-between the multiples and the singular stat varieties.How would the above be replicated in the gem based scenario?  Presumably you would have to have enough gem slots to allow an update for every stat but allow any combination (so a player could just fill the item with +INT gems)?  Is that how you see it?I too believe in power (and choice) for the player, so please keep refining the idea. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Editted to reply to the posters regarding adornments (which I forgot to do!).  This does appear to be like adornments but one very specific difference is that you can only have 1 adornment.  The suggestion here is that you can have multiple "gems".  Perhaps a compromise would be to allow multiple adornments to be applied?  I'm sure that would cheer up the transmuters! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  Of course, the other tradeskillers would not be so happy with their recipe count.

[Oakleafe]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote> Just out of curiosity did you think that up all by yourself or have you borrowed the idea from another game?  Certainly sounds like something I've read in a PC Zone game review.</blockquote>Just posting to close of this question for myself without the need for anyone to chip in and aid my failing memory.  Where I remember gems from is Diablo II (playing) and Dungeons & Dragons (review).I totally accept that the OP came up with the idea themself, but just wanted to close out where my memory of gems-applied-to-items-for-better-stats came from.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[cocoa_boy]

The OP's idea reminded me of WoW's socketed items and the gems that can be equiped in a socket...

[Calthine]

<cite>cocoa_boy wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP's idea reminded me of WoW's socketed items and the gems that can be equiped in a socket...</blockquote>EQ1 had 'em too.I've had the chance to ask dev's what the chances were of throwing out the whole TS system and starting over.  The answer is invariably "slim to none".       

[Mighty Melvor]

<p>Another issue that would arise from this would be appearance.  Everyone will look the same.  And since this there has long been a complaint about the *look* of EQ2 armor, they will never entertain such an idea.</p><p>Now if you consider modifing appearance based on the *gems* you wear, you've now complicated things even more.</p><p>While I don't think our crafting system is perfect, I'd prefer to keep it the way it is ATM.</p>

[rumblepants]

<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cocoa_boy wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP's idea reminded me of WoW's socketed items and the gems that can be equiped in a socket...</blockquote>EQ1 had 'em too.I've had the chance to ask dev's what the chances were of throwing out the whole TS system and starting over.  The answer is invariably "slim to none".        </blockquote><p>Yep, the gear you purchase from the LDoN merchants were more or less "blank" pieces of gear with several slots you can augment with. Though if I recall the pieces didn't have enough slots to really make them stand out as compared what was already readily available out there (which could also be augmented).</p>

[Drelgin]

<p>The gems to add specific stats is very similar to the spellcrafting in DAOC.</p><p>I kinda like the current system. I would like to see even more sets.</p>

[Looker1010]

<cite>cocoa_boy wrote:</cite><blockquote>The OP's idea reminded me of WoW's socketed items and the gems that can be equiped in a socket...</blockquote>Long before WOW was even a set of preliminary drawings, sockets and enhancing gems were part of Diablo.

[TaleraRis]

I thought of Diablo II at first as well, and then LDoN and augments in EQ Live.

[LadyEternity]

<cite>Oakleafe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>LadyEternity wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Let me ask you something. What does it entail to introduce a new stat layout set for armor? <p>Doesn't the TS dev have to not only create each piece of the set, but also input the models for the armor, create the entries in the TS volumes for both mastercrafted and normal and actually attach each particular piece to the actual TS machine, and link all the icons? Probably more then that actually, sense I do not know all the special things they have to do.</p><p>That's alot of work just to get a different stat combination of armor. Not to mention the introduction of new models to the pool means having items attached to them.</p></blockquote>I have to admit that the way I'd interpreted your original post is that the contraints of the current system would mean that all of the above processes would have to be done for each possible result of gem usage, which as I tried to explain would be more work than the current system.However, on reflection and having read your reply and the mention of adornments I guess an enhanced adornment(ish) system is what you are suggesting, except that the gems would be vendor purchases rather than created via sub-tradeskill.I still see two huge negatives though.1. Fewer recipes for the crafters (seems to me that this idea would drop the armour recipes, for example, down to just 14 handcrafted and 14 mastercrafted per level i.e. 1 set of plate & 1 set of chainmail - or am I still missing something?)2. A re-write of the current system (which I can't see them doing any time soon)But I do see the positive aspect where it would be easier to maintain as you introduce new levels etc. (Level 100 here we come!).Just to help clarify part of your idea for me .....Currently:. In the stats stake you can have items that have many stats, but for low values (the jeweler crafted belts spring to mind).  . You can buy items that just have one main stat, but for a higher relative value (e.g. spellbinder staff).  . You can buy items that have a few stats for a value in-between the multiples and the singular stat varieties.How would the above be replicated in the gem based scenario?  Presumably you would have to have enough gem slots to allow an update for every stat but allow any combination (so a player could just fill the item with +INT gems)?  Is that how you see it?I too believe in power (and choice) for the player, so please keep refining the idea. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Editted to reply to the posters regarding adornments (which I forgot to do!).  This does appear to be like adornments but one very specific difference is that you can only have 1 adornment.  The suggestion here is that you can have multiple "gems".  Perhaps a compromise would be to allow multiple adornments to be applied?  I'm sure that would cheer up the transmuters! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  Of course, the other tradeskillers would not be so happy with their recipe count.</blockquote><p>There would be a set amount of gems. And they would be called along the lines of this: "Strength Gem: To be applied to crafted armor. Armor quality level and crafted status determines the actual stat applied, and amount". There would be only one of these per augment. In the case of armor, it would be created with X amount of 'possible' applied gems for stats, hp/mana/resistance, and special. </p><p>So lets say we have two people. One has a tier two chain bp which can only have two stat gems, One has a tier 4 chain bp that can have 3 stat gems. Both would select from the same gem pool. There would be no level difference or cost difference. When they applied the gems the game would read the QL and level of the item and apply the appropriate scripted stats total. So for teir 2, a given stat could not go over +5 or 6 per gem if the item were Mastercrafted, a tier 4 would reflect the stat cap present on the mastercrafted at that level bracket. And sense mastercrafted tier 2 armor only has currently 2 stats assigned to it, you could only have any combination of 2 stat gems..even the same ones. So you could put 2 str gems or 2 wis gems, or 1 wis and 1 int gem. So the user could choose what they want on the armor. And this would apply to all the gem types. So the gem slot allotment per gem type stats, hp/mana, resistances, special would change according to what tier the item was as well as if it were mastercrafted or just crafted.</p><p>The glory of the gem system would be the ease of implimenting more gems in a given type. And that would ofcourse be determined by how far the development is willing to take it. However, unlike the current recipie system which to add in new things you have to add in a plethora of new recipies, using the gems you would only have to make the initial gem entry then all the gem QL upgrades for the tiers and QL of armor in the script. So you could further add in variety by having say a stat gem that adds a + to all stats, but kept balanced with the script for the different items it could be applied to. So see the implimentation of one gem type would completely trump (dev time wise) implimenting tons of new recipies to achieve the same desired effect for different equipment types.</p><p>I also like the idea of specialty gems that add + to defense and so on. Upon reflection, I think it would be neat to have the actually drop from mobs as treasure or even have them as quest rewards instead of bought. As they would be extra 'fluff' and should be special. However I'd like to see them expanded to include things that would be fun for more then just the adventuring crowd. Have crafting increase gems also. Maybe even gems that add particle effects to gear. The fun stuff they could do with this really is limitless.</p><p>So as a crafter...lets say a weaponsmith. What would this system do for you?</p><p>First off you would have the choice of what model to use. So lets say you get a contract to make a crafted one handed slashing weapon for a guardian. You would run over to the smithy and select the one handed slashing weapon pattern for the tier bracket you wanted, non mastercrafted. A window would appear showing all the possible models available. You'd either ask the guardian what model he/she wanted or already know ahead of time. Select the model type (this would be the step where they could insert color selection..but I doubt that would happe hehe) and begin the creation. It would pop out a 'blank' 'crafted' weapon. You would then hand it to the Guardian and he would go to the gem vendor. Upon mouse over of the weapon you would see the alotted slots for the gems or some kind of tool tip. Shoot if they wanted to get fancy they could even have a customize window allowing players to drag and drop gems to the item to see how it would effect it before they clicked the ok button. Or they could use the adornment applying style they have right now. Examining the item should tell the user how many slots they have for each thing available. Somehow the information needs to be displayed to the user how much of an alteration an item can receieve. Perhaps a scaling tooltip or something. So anyhow, the Guardian would then buy the stat gems he desired, the hp/mana gem, the stat gems, and maybe he got luck and quested for or found a special gem and added it also. Now he/she has a weapon they WANT, they participated in designing, with the look they desired. Alot of players would probably seek out situational equipment. Designed for specific things. Which would ofcourse make people buy more from the crafters. So see the entire thing would do the following:</p><p>A: Would provide a ton more variety then we have now. What if that cleric wants to wear the vanguard model with wis/str/sta ? Well they can!</p><p>B: What if that tank doesn't want football player shoulders and prefer's the plate armor version? Look now he can have it. And he can vary the stats for a more rounded character. What if he has a ton of str so wants to have more sta on some of the peices. Well he can. He can have any combo he wants.</p><p>C: What if that mage decides he wants a tunic instead of a robe, and wants int/str on half and int/sta on the rest, doubling up the int gem on the peices for better casting? He can. It's all his choice.</p><p>Now, with all that possible variety throw in the specialty gems which could have from bonuses to things like defense, spell crit, healing, regen to particle effects or who knows maybe even augs that prevent loss of dur when death accures. Who knows.....the possibilities are endless. So not only would the system provide alot more power to the adventurers and crafters, but it would make adding in 'new' things a heck of alot easier.</p><p>Art department makes 5 new weapons for tier three. Two one handed slashing, One onehanded blunt, One twohanded blunt and One Two handed Spear. All they have to do is add the models to the model selection pool <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Devs decide to add in a few more gem combo's for stats. Instead of adding in tons of recipies, all they have to do is add in the entries for those gems, as they can be applied to tons of different items.</p><p>And this ofcourse would not step on adornment making. Adornments could still be added. All this system does is remove the preset equipment, and replace it with 'blank' equipment...allowing the players or TSer to decide what they want on it. Removing the need to have billions of recipies for things. Haha they could even add in adornments that increase how many resitance gems on an item is allowed, or stats, or even...specials.</p><p>Ofcourse this would take away alot of recipies currently available. So they would have to tweak the exp earned to the effected TS classes.</p><p>I truely believe this system would really provide alot of positive things, not only to the devs creating the TS items, but for the players as well.</p><p>Blacksabath</p>