Tower Shield vs. Buckler

[PapaSmurf63]

<p>Hey all</p><p>New Guardian looking for a little bit of clarification on this issue.  Everywhere that I look on the Guardian boards, I always see people talking about buckler use.  Are Tower Shields shunned by the Guardian community?Is it a bad idea to pick up a tower shield to use?  I've been looking on the broker, and the best shield that i've seen for me (lvl 24) was a Pristine Imbued Steel Tower Shield.  looking at bucklers for my level, it seems that all of them are +wis shields, am i searching for the wrong thing? was it a mistake for me to grab the big 'ole tower shield?</p><p> Trying to figure this out, because i'm really enjoying the guardian class but this bucker vs tower thing has me a bit confused.</p><p>Thanks in advance</p>

[seamus]

<p>First, don't worry that you got the wrong shield, you didn't.</p><p>Now, why would a Guardian or Zerker use a buckler? At first it seems counter-intuitive, (frankly many of us that play Guardian and/or Zerker aren't really happy with using a buckler), but I'll try to explain why.</p><p>Look at the Warrior <a href="http://www.eq2ref.com/aa/index.php?class=Warrior" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Achievements </a>and note the third ability provided in the STA line: Gladiator's Finesse  This is what all the fuss is about. Putting 8 points into this ability nets you a tremendous chance to double attack. This achievement ability blows away every other AA available to a warrior because it dramatically increases a warrior's dps which also makes it easier to maintain aggro. If you then put 8 points into Gladiator's Revenge the difference between using a Tower Shield and a Buckler is reduced to about 3 or 4 percent depending on gear. So, for many warriors its an easy choice to go with the STA line. </p><p>In fact for Zerkers there is a lot of peer pressure to only spec the STA line and from the numbers its hard to not agree with the sentiment. This is a game though and unless you are in a top end raid guild where there is a lot of pressure to spec the 'right' way, you will do fine with a Tower Shield if that floats your boat. In fact if you check out the Guardian forum on eq2flames.com you'll find several who do very good dps not using the STA line and they tank just as well as a Guardian using the STA line.</p><p>Many Guardians successfully tank using Tower Shields so I wouldn't worry too much about it, if you like using Tower Shields. Having said that, if you have at least 10 AAs you may want to try the STA line. Its actually very good for leveling. As for the quality of the bucklers available, yes most of them are priest shields and there are very few with appropriate stats for a guardian. Even so, the overpowered nature of the STA line easily overcomes the lack of useful stats on a buckler.</p><p>I should note that warriors who spec the STA line may still swap in a tower shield until their mob is debuffed. You'll also find little need for defensive stance while leveling and in the end game many warriors tank in O stance, again swapping to D stance for spike damage or until their mob is debuffed. Depends how good the group or raid team is and how good the warrior's gear is.</p><p>Sorry for getting carried away, I probably over did the explanation.</p>

[Anfauglith]

For the part about stats on bucklers, you'll begin to find some made for melee around lvl 60 not many before...reason is that aas were implemented with KoS so no tank in their right mind would have used a buckler before...thus there were none to drop.For the tower shield, it's never a wrong choice as it's the best shield possible. Now the buckler line is made for tanks who can afford to get hitted a bit more often to make more dps which means, if you can afford good armors (at least mastercrafted while you lvl) then the buckler might be an answer to your "I'm always oop" problem (don't worry it's a problem every tank has at some point).Now as long as you're lvling just take what you wanna make better...when you reach high lvls you'll start to get a good idea of your class, how to play it, what are you strength and weakness...and what you feel is better for YOU to boost and you can respec then if you need to.

[PapaSmurf63]

<cite>seamus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry for getting carried away, I probably over did the explanation.</p></blockquote>Carried away? Not at all, thats the exact thing i was looking for.  Thank you very much, that explained everything I was confused on.

[knightofround]

I think what it boils down to is that you get very little "defensive juice" going from STA buckler to Tower Shield, but you get a ton of "offensive juice" going from Tower Shield to Buckler.Another factor is that healing is realitively easy in this game as long as you know how to pull properly, so you don't really need the extra block from the tower shield. But you might need the extra offensive power to hold aggro off of DPS classes that are better geared than you.This is especially obvious at lower levels, where you will quite frequently have one expert who's all mastered out, and you're expected to keep aggro as a new player with your app4s.Still, until you get 24 AA in the warrior tree, you're better off with a Tower Shield. You defintely want getting those 24 points and respeccing to be your first priority, AA-wise.

[Daalilama]

<p>TBH, I never even went near the buckler line with my guardian...and based upon my experience in t7 raids its more useful for mob situations but just barely...the extra dps is modest to say the least and the reduction in defensive capability is too much.  The buckler line seems more geared toward a zerker anyhow.</p><p>Most of the sought after raid zone names tend not to have mobs....so if you've spec'd buckler u lose out on other aa lines by doing so...period.</p>

[Tyrion]

<p>If you're holding aggro with a Tower Shield, your raid aint doing enough dps! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Seriously though, Buckler wins out in the end in my opinion. I can see the difference when I equip a Tower Shield, no doubt about the fact that an extra 10% uncontested Block is nice, but you lose soooo much damage, it's just unacceptable.</p>

[Schmalex23]

<cite>Daal@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>TBH, I never even went near the buckler line with my guardian...and based upon my experience in t7 raids its more useful for mob situations but just barely...the extra dps is modest to say the least and the reduction in defensive capability is too much.  The buckler line seems more geared toward a zerker anyhow.</p><p>Most of the sought after raid zone names tend not to have mobs....so if you've spec'd buckler u lose out on other aa lines by doing so...period.</p></blockquote>you realise that sta spec'ing is the greatest increaser in single target DPS that any warrior has avail to them.  If you think reversal is whats good about sta you really need to look back into the line again.

[TheSpin]

<p>If you go down the stamina line...use a buckler</p><p>I'm not a fan of the buckler line as I prefer the str and int lines....and will probably add the agi line to my top 3 for the 20 extra points.</p><p>No way you need the buckler to hold aggro in a raid.</p>

[Daalilama]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you go down the stamina line...use a buckler</p><p>I'm not a fan of the buckler line as I prefer the str and int lines....and will probably add the agi line to my top 3 for the 20 extra points.</p><p>No way you need the buckler to hold aggro in a raid.</p></blockquote>agreed

[Schmalex23]

Then you raid isnt living up to thier potential.  My wizzie/lock litterally do 10K on some fights with spikes of +100k raidwide dps.  When you are sitting at 1k dps that just isnt going to cut it.

[TheSpin]

<cite>Skel@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you raid isnt living up to thier potential.  My wizzie/lock litterally do 10K on some fights with spikes of +100k raidwide dps.  When you are sitting at 1k dps that just isnt going to cut it.</blockquote><p>Buckler tanking is a zerker thing in my opinion.  Most guardians that I know who want to tank go int/str.  Str gives you more hate gain across the board, int gives you more burst damage and shorter cooldowns on taunts.</p><p>I think Skel used to be a zerker until very recently, which is probably the reason for his different opinion.  I also think his guild is top of his server (this is all from other posts I've been browsing on the forums).  Maybe he has a different (but legitimate) view on things since he's been a zerker longer than a guardiant, but until the guardian starts losing aggro because they aren't doing enough dps, it's hard to understand.</p>

[Ferunnia]

Any time raid dps spikes above 50k a guard is probably going to have to rescue/reinforce or have the afore mentioned huge dps. Ask almost any of the best raid guild's mts how they hold aggro, and they'll tell you taunts are garbage, it's all about dps. Hell, go over to eq2 flames to the guardian boards, you'll learn a lot about aggro holding as a guard in high dps raids compared to low dps raids.edit: the hate gain from str is almost negligible in a raid, if buffed properly. Guards use str for the crit gain.

[Anfauglith]

You are right Ferunnia...For tanks with weapons over 90 ratio in perfect raid setup 99% of the time, taunts may not do much...but for any other tank it's completly wrong taunts are a part of holding aggro and the 10% aggro boost is still nice as it stacks with the buffs you can get to boost it (boosts dps's aggro too).Beside a tank with full EoF equipement with 7-9 healers doesn't care about 3-4% avoidance as much as less equiped tanked with possibly 5-6 healers in most raids. But we're speaking about a lvl 24 warrior who if he raids will most likely not join a best of the best guild before a long looong time.The buckler line is definitly worth it in raids...that is <b>IF</b> you can afford a bit less viability. And if your guild can't afford a perfect setup all the time...you may not want to go with buckler.Beside, reinforcement and rescue are ment to manage dps spikes so there's nothing wrong if you have to use them even frequently...as long as you don't have to use them every fight...P.S: <b>People should stop giving strats used by the very bests to average people (unless they ask to)...they are worlds appart and what is true for one is usualy wrong for the other</b>.

[Bremer]

If you go buckler line you trade 2 % avoidance for 60 % more autoattack DPS (so ~30 % overall DPS increase). Anybody who says this is not worth it has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. So basically you get all the DPS for free and not going sta line only cuts yourself down for no reason.*crosses fingers and hopes that all Guards now spec buckler line for RoK to show SOE how broken the Zerker/Guard balance will be (is), that SOE will fix it soon and that Skel will store all zerker masters in the bank and comes back then* /dream off

[Raahl]

<p>To those whinning about Zerkers vs. Guardians.  Take similarly equipped and buffed Guardians and Zerkers with the same AA Warrior specs fighting the same encounter and you will see that the Zerkers still outdamage the Guardians a large majority of the time.  So stop whinning.</p><p>Now, back on topic.</p><p>I agree with those saying that the buckler spec is not for everyone.  Yea it's awsome for DPS and it greatly increases the single target hate, but those with a raid that less than optimal setup probably rely upon Tower of Stone a lot more and switching from buckler to tower to kick off ToS can be a bit tough in the heat of battle.  Though it can be done.</p><p>I used buckler spec for a bit, but it always seemed like I was using a tower shield and not taking advantage of the buckler abilities.  So I changed to STR/AGI/INT.</p><p>Currently I do not see myself changing back to STA spec'd.</p>

[Oo]

<p>Perhaps I should make a new post, so sorry if this is a highjack...</p><p>Is there somewhere I can find a list (with stats and/or screenshots) of the buckler options for the vaiours tiers?  I'm T4 so that would be my first thought, but also want to know what the options are as I level up.  If not, can someone please list them for me and where it can be found?  If there are better options than MC out there, I'd like to find those bucklers as I move up.  Thanks.  </p>

[Nott]

<p>Just a thought which I didn't research if true specifically for EQ2:</p><p> Using a normal stance AFAIK and in MOST RPGs, even MMORPG, the calculation is 1 damage = 1 aggro. Some games use stances (also for tanks) that when used usually rise or lower some stats and / or aggro gain. In EQ2 the defensive stance AFAIK raises the gain in aggro not only per damage but also per skill used. There are usually also weapons that have some procs that directly give hate. But this be let aside for now...</p><p>People may talk that melee-dps or usage of taunts / skills may be better but what they don't bother considering in this thread is that, especially in EQ2, mobs can AVOID being hit (thus negating melee-aggro and aggro-skills related to melee) and they can RESIST taunts (thus negating taunts that don't rely on melee-attacks or hits / mitigation).</p><p> So if we take into account that mobs can AVOID aggro and can also RESIST it wouldn't it be best to combine both to maximize the effect? But hey, we just forgot something else here:</p><p> A standard raid force will want to use the least healing possible. This can be done simply by avoiding damage spikes as much as possible. (EQ1 end-game-raiding-rule) For melee-heavy fights this is done by using a class with the highest possible mitigation. If the fight is less about melee then take someone that can AVOID being hit by melee (but these fights usually rely on spot healing with megatons of overhealing so just get someone that can hold aggro...).</p><p> End of line and propably totally outdated rules coming from 5.5 years playing and raiding in EQ1 and some odd 2.5 years casually playing WoW:</p><p>LET THE TANK AND OFFTANK(S) GAIN AGGRO BEFORE ENGAGING AND...WAIT TILL IT'S WAY DOWN BEFORE GOING ALL OUT. (losing aggro is (espacially in raiding scenarios) often not the tank's fault...it's those that try the thread the thin line - or try to - and fail) - <b><u>aggro-management is NOT a tank's job alone!!!</u></b></p><p>And no I didn't play a tank in EQ1 but I did both play a main healer and a high DPS / support class in EQ1 - both in end game raids. And heck I DO KNOW that wipes in groups and raids most often don't come from the tank (unless it is a clueless one).</p><p>Sumeine, cleric in EQ1 (end game raiding)</p><p>Xatrassis, necro in EQ1 (end game raiding)</p><p>Koma, priest (disc / holy) in WoW</p><p>Kagar, druid (feral) in WoW</p>

[Anfauglith]

<cite>Nott wrote:</cite> <blockquote><span class="postbody"><p>A standard raid force will want to use the least healing possible. This can be done simply by avoiding damage spikes as much as possible. (EQ1 end-game-raiding-rule) For melee-heavy fights this is done by using a class with the highest possible mitigation. If the fight is less about melee then take someone that can AVOID being hit by melee (but these fights usually rely on spot healing with megatons of overhealing so just get someone that can hold aggro...). </p><p>End of line and propably totally outdated rules coming from 5.5 years playing and raiding in EQ1 and some odd 2.5 years casually playing WoW:</p><p>LET THE TANK AND OFFTANK(S) GAIN AGGRO BEFORE ENGAGING AND...WAIT TILL IT'S WAY DOWN BEFORE GOING ALL OUT. (losing aggro is (espacially in raiding scenarios) often not the tank's fault...it's those that try the thread the thin line - or try to - and fail) - <b><u>aggro-management is NOT a tank's job alone!!!</u></b></p><p>And no I didn't play a tank in EQ1 but I did both play a main healer and a high DPS / support class in EQ1 - both in end game raids. And heck I DO KNOW that wipes in groups and raids most often don't come from the tank (unless it is a clueless one).</p></span></blockquote>While this was totaly true in eq1...mostly because that way you could fight forever because you could have had 10-15 healers (fights taking 20-30 minutes weren't a problem) it's often faulse in eq2. In quite a lot of fight what you have to do to survive in keep the numbers of ae the raid takes as low as possible thus making raid dps very important and making aggro management a real issue.Also there is one VERY big difference about debuffs in eq1 and eq2 (I think wow is a bit more like eq1 but not sure) in eq1 you had 2-3 BIG debuffs to put on the mob then it was ok to tank it. In eq2 you have a dozen of main debuffs you need to lend on the mob before it's easy to tank...most of them doing damage in the process and lasting around 20 seconds. So you can't have just 2-3 people landing debuffs while the rest stands away for a minute just to let tank aggro...if you do that when you start hitting your healers will have eaten half there power if not more.While aggro management is NOT the tank alone, the tank has to take responsability for part of it. Thus making buckler aa line very important in some cases. But again this becomes true only if you have a tank REALLY well equiped and can afford the loss of 3-8% avoidance depending of how you spec with sta.I recently specced for buckler and won about 20% overall dps so it's a huge change. But this became possible only because we didn't had to raid with 5 healers and I got better gears.Now while you are right most wipes aren't my fault when they happen, tanks have more reasons to be responsible for a wipe than in eq1...I sometimes forget to cast my short buff on right timing and die. Tanks have a lot moe things to do while raiding in eq2 than in eq1 and when you're at the edge, forgeting one may be fatal even with the best support there is. (I do NOT mean tanks in eq1 can just lay back and watch what the rest is doing by any mean)As a last line (Yeah I know I'm writting waaay too much) my adivse would be while lvling, buckler is the most efficient aa line because of how much dmg it adds, in worst case if you really can't tank something due to buckler, you'll be able to next lvl.When you start to raid, you'll know very fast if your raid setting and equipement allows you to keep it or not and you can respec if you have to.

[Mildavyn]

<p>Wow, so many errors in this post Nott, I'll try to be gentle while I'm correcting you since you've obviously not been playing long.</p><p>The most important thing to consider is that you need to forget just about everything you know about EQ1 raiding (and probably WoW as well, not played that myself) This is not EQ1 and there are major differences.</p><p>1. Defensive stance will buff Aggression. This does not directly increase agro generation, however I guess yo u could argue that it indirectly increases it. Aggression skill affects your resist rate on taunts. So while it doesn't make the taunts more effective, less resists means more agro... jsut in a round-about kind of way.</p><p>2. 1 damage = 1 hate, you were correct there.</p><p>3. Hit rates are usually fairly high once mobs are debuffed.</p><p>4. Mitigation is on a diminishing returns curve. Most people believe that this means it's not worth as much after a certain point. I disagree, but that's a subject for another thread.</p><p>5. If you're waiting more than 5 seconds before unloading, you're either a warlock, or you're on a raid with a garbage tank or useless raid setup.</p><p>6. Agro management is NOT jsut the tank's job. Anyone who argues this point is jsut plain wrong. If it WAS jsut the tank's job, then scouts and mages wouldn't have de-taunts. Bards wouldn't have entire spell-lines dedicated to nothing but agro-management.</p>

[Freydinessa]

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wow, so many errors in this post Nott, I'll try to be gentle while I'm correcting you since you've obviously not been playing long.</p><p>The most important thing to consider is that you need to forget just about everything you know about EQ1 raiding (and probably WoW as well, not played that myself) This is not EQ1 and there are major differences.</p><p>1. Defensive stance will buff Aggression. This does not directly increase agro generation, however I guess yo u could argue that it indirectly increases it. Aggression skill affects your resist rate on taunts. So while it doesn't make the taunts more effective, less resists means more agro... jsut in a round-about kind of way.</p><p>2. 1 damage = 1 hate, you were correct there.</p><p>3. Hit rates are usually fairly high once mobs are debuffed.</p><p>4. Mitigation is on a diminishing returns curve. Most people believe that this means it's not worth as much after a certain point. I disagree, but that's a subject for another thread.</p><p>5. If you're waiting more than 5 seconds before unloading, you're either a warlock, or you're on a raid with a garbage tank or useless raid setup.</p><p><span style="color: #66ff00;">6. Agro management is NOT jsut the tank's job. Anyone who argues this point is jsut plain wrong. If it WAS jsut the tank's job, then scouts and mages wouldn't have de-taunts. Bards wouldn't have entire spell-lines dedicated to nothing but agro-management.</span></p></blockquote>Amen to that! Soo many players seem to think that it is only the tanks job. I unfortunately didn't invite a wizard into a group with friends the other day as he/she was known to go crazy all the time and have no concern for aggro. Group = team effort, in every respect.

[Rahatmattata]

To the OP who is probably over level 24 by now... when I was 24 and considering the sta line, the avoidance difference between a mastercrafted buckler and steel tower shield was huge. Somewhere like 30% with buckler and 55% with tower shield (and fully steel/palladium MC, hex dolls, etc). I think there is a fabled buckler that drops off Anguis that might be ok for a level 20... But yea, at level 24 the difference holding a steel tower shield vs anything else was huge.