im done

[falin5811]

im done on eq2 boards good luck to steel, oisin, and jalathan and the many others that still remain to post here, if ya all need to contact me you can do so on <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.eq2flames.com</a> just mail virutis or post in the paladin boardsalso can reach me at Kithicor.Virutis.CheersVirutisChaotic LegionKithicor

[NANEEJE]

I dont know you Virutis, but I am very curious to know why you are done posting on here, what happened? I hope you dont quit, especially if you have good stuff to offer people who are serious about their game play, I feel that I am a credit to the Paladins in game, because i have taken the time to make sure we are respected. So if you are done, someone obviously [Removed for Content] you off and if it has to do with their opinions? Most of us want yours, not the negative ones, so please follow the following instructions.... /filter bs /ignore negative comments /assist naneeje /consume 1/5th of Caribbean Rum/Dr. Pepper /post results /reuse ability filter

[NANEEJE]

I see your point, I have petitioned to have that post removed as i feel it is negatively affecting our positive helpful community. I ignored that post, but I had to go see cause i figured that was what you are talking about. I think i am right. So , reported the post to the moderator to have it removed. I hope you stay, I feel that your help along with the other 10-15 people that are extremely helpful need to stay to keep us newbies on our game. We are your successors, and "success" is a reflection of leadership. Lead on my friend..... Lead on!

[NANEEJE]

ha,,, i was already signed up, i forgot, they wished me a happy birthday when noone else did....

[Rast]

<p>Glad to see you took my advice bud, I probably won't be far behind ya.  It is obvious that this site doesn't want people who will actually advice and believe in the class, they want people who are negative and less than desirable as personalities here.</p><p>I prefer to be the former rather than the later.</p>

[Arno24]

I don't read here because of the massive amount of misinformation. There's a ton of that too on EQ2flames, but it's not quite as bad.

[Rast]

<cite>Onra@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't read here because of the massive amount of misinformation. There's a ton of that too on EQ2flames, but it's not quite as bad.</blockquote>And that is the travesity of this site...  it is the misinformation that is accepted and deemed correct.  It is no wonder 90% of the EQ2 world thinks paladins can't tank (including a large portion of paladins), it is the accepted SoE view.

[Execute]

<p>I rarely post.</p><p>I read these posts from time to time and read what pertains to me.  I screen out all the negative and take the positive.  </p><p>I may not be the best paladin in game, but I am not the worst.  If any of you have questions on paladins, or want to shot the poop, send me a game message or use the Paladin channel.</p><p>In regards to the post, good luck Virutis, hope EQ2Flames is good to you.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

I will still post on both here and eq2flames, to me it is the best way to make sure info is not being told that is wrong and to hit the most wide of audiences.  There isnt a poster on this site or eq2flames that will make me stop posting, and if there are what many may refer to as baiters or trolls that try to stir up trouble i reply with the facts as i see it.  The posters that make me sad are the posters that post things in a bitter context, people that post here that try to stir things up i don't give the time of day to, but the ones that use to care are the true losses to this site.  For the case of Virutis i totally understand, a person can only take so much before it is better to move on to less restrictive forums, and it is probably better for both him and SOE(tho a loss to us).

[Niamh77]

I don't mean to stir up trouble. At least not on this board. I genuinely try to help and just keep getting banned. /poutOh well, you can find me over at Flames this week, as well. /thumbsup

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Niamh7733 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't mean to stir up trouble. At least not on this board. I genuinely try to help and just keep getting banned. /poutOh well, you can find me over at Flames this week, as well. /thumbsup</blockquote>Nay, i would never say you have stirred up trouble, you are one of the paladins that can contribute alot of experience to new paladins out there.  Anybody that has talked to you knows this...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Echgar]

I understand some of you are upset with the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a> here.  Some of you have been taking the extreme viewpoint, however, that anyone saying anything perceived as critical of the Paladin class is the enemy and is fair game to chase them away with attacks, insults, or namecalling, which is simply not permitted.The <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a> has a section that puts it pretty simply:<blockquote>In general, you may post any material written in a courteous and mature manner, providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting. This includes material that disagrees with the way that we, the developers, operate the game. We will not interfere with the communication of thoughts and ideas as long as the presentation is constructive and appropriate for all those capable of reading the forum.</blockquote>Also for reference, you may NOT:<blockquote><ul><li>Post material that attacks or insults others on the board. Feel free to debate the idea, but do not turn your disagreement into an attack upon the poster or any person or group.</li><li>Post material that engages in name-calling, harassment, or threats.</li><li>Troll the forums. "Trolling" is defined as: Posting with the intent of stirring up trouble or to incite disruption. An example of trolling would be posting to a thread without the intent to provide constructive suggestions or comments and instead making disruptive comments.</li></ul></blockquote>While I am not a big fan of "The Sky Is Falling!" types of posts, Paladins are not created equally.  Personal skill, abilities/spells, achievement choices, equipment, playstyle, zone, and other things factor in and it can be entirely possible that two Paladins end up having differing opinions about the class -- and that is ok provided it is done in a constructive manner.I understand several of you have used the word "constructive" recently to be a synonym for "negative" (and undesirable) and this is not really true.  Constructive criticism is perfectly acceptable here and the developers want to hear it!  We probably would not tolerate someone coming in here to just post "Paladins stink.  Guardians are better.  Neener, neener, neener!" but someone posting something like "In my opinion, Paladins aren't the tanks they should be" followed by information and data to support their opinion might be debatable within the community, but it isn't trolling.I see some of you talking about wanting to "help".  Helping, however, does not need to include bashing others in the community because you disagree with them or see their opinions as negative.  As I mentioned above, Paladins are not created equally and provided the post is constructive you do not have to take it as an attack to your opinion that Paladins are a great class.  Educate each other and work together -- if someone truly is trolling, let us take care of it please instead of you lashing out at the person and finding yourself on the wrong side of the forum rules yourself.I understand some of you are frustrated and feel your voice would be better heard on other forums/sites.  That is certainly your choice.  We are not going to censor constructive criticism here, however, and if you wish to participate on the official forums, you must post according to the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a>.

[JamesRay]

<p>I found the post by the foreign player that provided tons of different examples as to why he felt paladins were at a disadvantage useful, despite my not agreeing with him 100%.  He made his arguments well and provided concrete examples as to why he felt the way he did.I found the post by the guy who refused to identify himself and had little to say except that guardians are #1 and that paladins only beat the same mobs they do after being equipped by the guardians first...to be the equivalent of a bigoted racist in the way he presented himself.  His posts served absolutely no purpose but to attempt to enflame others and demonstrate his limited view of the game as well as lacking knowledge of the capabilities of this class.</p><p>There is a big difference between pointing out perceived weakness (former) and making black and white statements (latter).  For example, while PVP may be "easier" for your average Joe when using a scout class, it doesn't mean any other class isn't "capable" of PVPing as effectively with the proper skill.  In fact, a player succeeding at PVP using a class which isn't deemed as "easymode" is typically given greater recognition for their accomplishments.  </p><p>While a pally may not have the same level of association with accomplishing the kind of feats as your run of the mill guardian, it doesn't mean that it is impossible, and gawkers which have nothing to offer but anonymous jabs would do well to stand aside and let those who are actually making things happen work on changing that association.  Just because you haven't seen something with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't happening, and continuing to chant the "no you can't, you suck too much" mantra does nothing but make you look like you're trying to detract from the gaming experience of other players, which, for some reason, I thought was also against the rules.</p>

[Echgar]

<cite>JamesRay wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you haven't seen something with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't happening, and continuing to chant the "no you can't, you suck too much" mantra does nothing but make you look like you're trying to detract from the gaming experience of other players, which, for some reason, I thought was also against the rules.</blockquote>When you see someone posting something you feel is not permitted per the forum rules, you have a few options:<ol><li>Use the "Report this post to a moderator" link and a moderator will take a look.  If you don't see anything happen, you can even contact a moderator individually to discuss it.</li><li>Reply to the post in a constructive and respectful manner to state your disagreement.</li><li>Ignore the post and move on since feeding trolls tends to give them exactly what they want.</li><li>Reply to the post with attacks, insults, and/or namecalling.</li></ol>If you choose #4, however, you are violating the forum rules and should not be surprised if a moderator moderates you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Constructive criticism would be the person who posted logs of himself tanking vulcidae as both a paladin and a guardian, showing significant differences in paladin and guardian tanking during KoS raids (amazingly bad, in comparison actually).  It was well received, and accepted.Non-constructive criticism would be people who repeatedly post that paladins are vastly inferior to warriors, in every thread, without backing.  That includes threads where it is shown not to be true in EoF raid settings.  How do you respond to someone who doesn't listen, and is obviously wrong?  In that case, it would seem to require moderation.  At what point does that become spamming and hijacking, if ever?Let me just say that we appreciate the work you do to keep out a wide variety of undesirable posts from RMT spammer to obscene material, but enforcing the rules isn't quite the same as moderating, and moderating is a great power that you don't want to use often.  My concern is that a malicious poster can post obviously false opinions in every thread, and noone can use the boards.  That's a slight hyperbole to emphasize the point of what I'm trying to say.  I'm not saying that anyone in particular is a malicious poster.This is particularly troubling if the paladin class has a large in-game PR problem with false opinions, resulting from very real imbalance issues from the past, and possibly the near future.

[Echgar]

<cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>My concern is that a malicious poster can post obviously false opinions in every thread, and noone can use the boards.  That's a slight hyperbole to emphasize the point of what I'm trying to say.  I'm not saying that anyone in particular is a malicious poster.</blockquote>Sure, and here is the problem.  Who decides what is a "false opinion"?  As I mentioned, there are all kinds of variables involved -- personal skill, equipment, spells/abilities, achievements, and so on.  Where one Paladin, for example, may do a great job tanking a particular mob, another Paladin may be awful at it.There are those in the community here that are incredibly knowledgeable about the Paladin class.  Use your knowledge to educate those that haven't "seen the light" yet and figure out why they are saying what they are saying.  Maybe the person just isn't as skilled as you are, maybe they don't have the right equipment, or maybe they aren't using the right abilities in a fight.  Give them the benefit of the doubt and if they are indeed trolling, let us handle them.One of the things that could be really helpful is break down an issue into smaller pieces.  If I say "Paladins are broken," that isn't really saying a whole lot (and in that case would be inappropriate).  If I list some abilities though that I feel are ineffective, for example, that would give us something to discuss and I would hope the experts here would help me sort it out.  Heck, maybe with the way I am using the abilities I could have found a bug that you hadn't noticed before!  If someone comes in with a vague statement, ask them if they can clarify a bit.I understand some of you are really frustrated and could likely pull out all kinds of examples from the past on this forum where something you feel should have been moderated wasn't and that is why you have taken matters into your own hands lately.  The moderation staff is not omniscient, however, so if you are not working with us to let us know when there are issues, we might not catch it.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

I can't help but notice you quoted from the example which I clearly stated was a hyperbole.  In answering that, you would have to assume the "obviously false" clause is true.  If such unrealistic examples seem useless, then just ignore that paragraph entirely.  I have an academic background, so I tend to be a little too comfortable with crazy hypotheticals.Since you took a practical approach to responding to me, I think you would want to quote the practical section, which is the meat of the post:<span class="postbody">Non-constructive criticism would be people who repeatedly post that paladins are vastly inferior to warriors, in every thread, without backing.  ...  How do you respond to someone who doesn't listen ... ?  At what point does that become spamming and hijacking, if ever?</span>You do make a good point.  It's not really important if they're right or not, especially since a moderator wouldn't want to make that call.  I have omited any reference to right or wrong, in light of that.

[Rast]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JamesRay wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you haven't seen something with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't happening, and continuing to chant the "no you can't, you suck too much" mantra does nothing but make you look like you're trying to detract from the gaming experience of other players, which, for some reason, I thought was also against the rules.</blockquote>When you see someone posting something you feel is not permitted per the forum rules, you have a few options:<ol><li>Use the "Report this post to a moderator" link and a moderator will take a look.  If you don't see anything happen, you can even contact a moderator individually to discuss it.</li><li>Reply to the post in a constructive and respectful manner to state your disagreement.</li><li>Ignore the post and move on since feeding trolls tends to give them exactly what they want.</li><li>Reply to the post with attacks, insults, and/or namecalling.</li></ol>If you choose #4, however, you are violating the forum rules and should not be surprised if a moderator moderates you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Yep, until someone does exactly as you've asked and he still gets banned for it.  Personally, for one, I'm sick of being certain posters punching bags with no recourse but to let that bull run as if it were truth, when paladins out there everywhere are proving them false in games.</p><p>Yet, we say one word about how wrong these people are and then give them proof that they are and we are the ones banned for it.</p><p>Either stop the idiots from posting lies and crap or just shut the site down because there won't be any useful information left.</p>

[Rast]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>My concern is that a malicious poster can post obviously false opinions in every thread, and noone can use the boards.  That's a slight hyperbole to emphasize the point of what I'm trying to say.  I'm not saying that anyone in particular is a malicious poster.</blockquote>Sure, and here is the problem.  Who decides what is a "false opinion"?  As I mentioned, there are all kinds of variables involved -- personal skill, equipment, spells/abilities, achievements, and so on.  Where one Paladin, for example, may do a great job tanking a particular mob, another Paladin may be awful at it.There are those in the community here that are incredibly knowledgeable about the Paladin class.  Use your knowledge to educate those that haven't "seen the light" yet and figure out why they are saying what they are saying.  Maybe the person just isn't as skilled as you are, maybe they don't have the right equipment, or maybe they aren't using the right abilities in a fight.  Give them the benefit of the doubt and if they are indeed trolling, let us handle them.One of the things that could be really helpful is break down an issue into smaller pieces.  If I say "Paladins are broken," that isn't really saying a whole lot (and in that case would be inappropriate).  If I list some abilities though that I feel are ineffective, for example, that would give us something to discuss and I would hope the experts here would help me sort it out.  Heck, maybe with the way I am using the abilities I could have found a bug that you hadn't noticed before!  If someone comes in with a vague statement, ask them if they can clarify a bit.I understand some of you are really frustrated and could likely pull out all kinds of examples from the past on this forum where something you feel should have been moderated wasn't and that is why you have taken matters into your own hands lately.  The moderation staff is not omniscient, however, so if you are not working with us to let us know when there are issues, we might not catch it.</blockquote><p>Actually, it is pretty easy to tell who's opinion is wrong.  When people are doing it are being told they can't, it is obviously the one who is saying they can't who is wrong.  Pretty simple logic there Echgar.  If it is being done, then it can't be impossible.</p><p>We have tried to educate some of these people, but they do not wish to be taught.  They are stuck on their erroneous opinions that died out months ago, but for the sake of their own raid positions continue to perpetuate them.  The simple fact of the batter is, with EoF, the gap between paladins and guardians disappeared.  Mitigation was eliminated as the end all be all factor in raiding (which is where guardians previously were so superior it wasn't funny) and things like block became more important (which the paladin excels at more so than the guardian).</p><p>In short, people are still trying to pass pre-EoF stereotypes on us and we don't want to hear it any more.  We are sick of it and when we follow your precious rules, WE are the ones banned.  Go back and look at that thread there Liken posted and tell me where Virutis was vicious, rude or even inflamatory?  I won't wait, because you can't, he wasn't.  Yet, he got a 2 week ban because some troll showed up on a thread and he reported them.  How does that cause people to want to follow YOUR rules eh?</p><p>That thread isn't an exclusive of what we have to deal with here and it is evident that some of these people don't give a rats [Removed for Content] for anything other than to continue to spread easily disprovable lies that they refuse to hear the truth.</p><p>It needs to end, or there is no reason to even keep this forum, because it will be completely worthless relatively quickly.  How many more of the 'knowledgable' pallys do you want to run off?  Already, most of the high end pallys won't post here because of the drivel that is posted by those individuals who don't care to learn.  You've run off Virutis with Gnorbin rabid vindictive nature toward him.</p><p>I fully expect to get banned for this, but I feel it needs to be said and given the opportunity, I'd say it again.</p>

[Echgar]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JamesRay wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you haven't seen something with your own eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't happening, and continuing to chant the "no you can't, you suck too much" mantra does nothing but make you look like you're trying to detract from the gaming experience of other players, which, for some reason, I thought was also against the rules.</blockquote>When you see someone posting something you feel is not permitted per the forum rules, you have a few options:<ol><li>Use the "Report this post to a moderator" link and a moderator will take a look.  If you don't see anything happen, you can even contact a moderator individually to discuss it.</li><li>Reply to the post in a constructive and respectful manner to state your disagreement.</li><li>Ignore the post and move on since feeding trolls tends to give them exactly what they want.</li><li>Reply to the post with attacks, insults, and/or namecalling.</li></ol>If you choose #4, however, you are violating the forum rules and should not be surprised if a moderator moderates you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Yep, until someone does exactly as you've asked and he still gets banned for it.  Personally, for one, I'm sick of being certain posters punching bags with no recourse but to let that bull run as if it were truth, when paladins out there everywhere are proving them false in games.</p><p>Yet, we say one word about how wrong these people are and then give them proof that they are and we are the ones banned for it.</p><p>Either stop the idiots from posting lies and crap or just shut the site down because there won't be any useful information left.</p></blockquote>Posters are banned when they violate the forum rules (and usually after being warned).  It's pretty simple. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />As for the "idiots" posting "lies and crap", we aren't omniscient.  If you see someone else violating the forum rules you need to let us know.  Keep in mind though as I have posted here previously, opinions you don't agree with do not necessarily mean the person posting it is an "idiot" (namecalling), or "lies and crap" (insult).  I am happy to discuss individual cases via private message, but whether to moderate an individual post is not likely to ever be up for a vote.

[Echgar]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How many more of the 'knowledgable' pallys do you want to run off?</blockquote>We aren't interested in running anyone off.  The thing is, if the 'knowledgable' Paladins are not able to follow the forum rules, they will find themselves unwelcome here.  Ditto with the not-knowledgeable Paladins.

[Suelothvar]

After much rerolling, while trying to find a class I like, I finally stumbled on the paladin.. Much like my WoW paladin, I was inspired to roll one due to similar reason "NO other class can whine half as much about its abilitys or being gimped"Ironicaly as on WoW (forgive me I only played it as a filler after DaoC) I actualy love the class, sure i'm only about lev 13 atm, but I love the style..Sorry to see so much negativity about, but hope ya all keep posting, those rare bits of usefull info, that can be sived between all the other junk, that tends to plague class forums...

[Rast]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How many more of the 'knowledgable' pallys do you want to run off?</blockquote>We aren't interested in running anyone off.  The thing is, if the 'knowledgable' Paladins are not able to follow the forum rules, they will find themselves unwelcome here.  Ditto with the not-knowledgeable Paladins.</blockquote><p>well, you've already run most of them off, I guess a few more won't hurt eh?  Like I said, the aforementioned pally DID follow the rules and still got banned and that is wrong, period.</p><p>Guess what, that ran him off.  One of the most knowledgeable pallies I know.</p>

[Echgar]

<cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How many more of the 'knowledgable' pallys do you want to run off?</blockquote>We aren't interested in running anyone off.  The thing is, if the 'knowledgable' Paladins are not able to follow the forum rules, they will find themselves unwelcome here.  Ditto with the not-knowledgeable Paladins.</blockquote><p>well, you've already run most of them off, I guess a few more won't hurt eh?  Like I said, the aforementioned pally DID follow the rules and still got banned and that is wrong, period.</p><p>Guess what, that ran him off.  One of the most knowledgeable pallies I know.</p></blockquote>I am sorry you feel that we ban posters when they follow the forum rules.  That simply isn't true and just plain wouldn't make sense.  We have no interest in turning away posters that are to be a constructive part of the community and post according to the forum rules.I do understand how being moderated yourself can be a not-so-fun experience and it can be equally frustrating seeing friends moderated.  In my experience, plenty of posters that we moderate disagree in some way with the actions taken against them (otherwise they wouldn't have posted what they did), but the level of emotion someone has is not what makes a post ok -- it is the forum rules, which does not have an exception for if you feel someone is an idiot, posting false information, or another reason.We try to give posters ample opportunity to reform themselves and in most circumstances a ban comes *after* having been warned previously.  Those who choose to ignore the warnings of a moderator shouldn't be surprised when they find their posting privileges revoked when they repeat similar behavior.I am not going to debate the moderation of a particular poster in public or with anyone other than that person, however, and I think as a result it is time to wrap up this thread as we are starting to go in circles.  If anyone wishes to discuss further, my PM-box is always open.