Group Wards and Group Reactives

[Oneira]

To the SOE devs: It's time to really reconsider the excessively long cast times that clerics and shamans requires for their group heal/ward.To put it mildly, 5 seconds is simply unviable in pvp.  As a matter of fact I know shamans who don't even bother to cast it in PvE because it is sooooooooo slowwwwwwwwww.Shall I say it again?  5 seconds is an eternity in pvp, it makes our group heals/wards practically unusable not only because of the ridiculously long cast times but because of the opportunities to interrupt.Why can't you give us the same cast times that druids do?  Or if not the same, at least shave off 1 sec.  Throwing points into AAs is not an answer and besides, I believe that only clerics have that option anyway.  Shamans don'tThis is not beating a dead horse.  The horse won't die.  There is no longer any real reason to have such long cast times for these critical spells of ours.   It simply deprives us of their use.

[Gagla]

I am capable of casting my group reactives in both pvp and pve. AA's certainly help.

[Oneira]

Because Temps can reduce the time to 4 secs, right?  None of the rest of us can.And sure, you CAN cast them in pvp, and hope that none of your group mates die in that 4-5 secs it takes for it to go off, which is entirely possible and in some cases quite likely.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because Temps can reduce the time to 4 secs, right?  None of the rest of us can.</blockquote><p>Iquisitors can too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And it's actually less than 4 secs, i think.</p>

[Wildfury77]

<p>Not sure this is a problem - my templar is an awesome group healer</p><p>Most dmg in PvP is focused ----> In which case Group heals are pointless</p><p>If AoE dmg does happen, i hit divine recovery and pump out heals faster than you can blink!!</p><p>Bottom line ---> you can spec most healers to be primary group healers! But you can't have it all!! A DPS Fury is never going to be my groups first choice for heals.....secondary healer maybe <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p> P.S. You CAN "pre-reactive/ward" if your groups scouts are paying attention <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because Temps can reduce the time to 4 secs, right?  None of the rest of us can.</blockquote><p>Iquisitors can too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />  And it's actually less than 4 secs, i think.</p></blockquote>If that's the case then the problem I guess only lies with shamans, because we do not get any group ward casting time reductions.So clerics are content.  Shamans get that ol' 5 seconds for group ward.  The above opinion applies.

[Gagla]

4.13 I believe. I can also spec myself immune to interupts.I guess what I'm trying to say is this should be solely a shaman problem.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>If that's the case then the problem I guess only lies with shamans, because we do not get any group ward casting time reductions.So clerics are content.  Shamans get that ol' 5 seconds for group ward.  The above opinion applies.</blockquote><p>ahem.. we have to put 8 points into it, and it's the 4th thing down in the tree.  let's not make it seem like this is a huge solution here.  Divine recovery, as gak says, is great too -- and it's for the whole group (including any shamans that might be in the group).</p><p>But this isn't a "group ward casting time reduction".  It's a "casting time reduction".</p><p>Your shaman has no AA at all that decrease casting time? the AGI line? nothing?</p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>If that's the case then the problem I guess only lies with shamans, because we do not get any group ward casting time reductions.So clerics are content.  Shamans get that ol' 5 seconds for group ward.  The above opinion applies.</blockquote><p>ahem.. we have to put 8 points into it, and it's the 4th thing down in the tree.  let's not make it seem like this is a huge solution here.  Divine recovery, as gak says, is great too -- and it's for the whole group (including any shamans that might be in the group).</p><p>But this isn't a "group ward casting time reduction".  It's a "casting time reduction".</p><p>Your shaman has no AA at all that decrease casting time? the AGI line? nothing?</p></blockquote>Nada.  AGI line is the shaman's melee line.  End ability of the WIS line allows you to reduce casting, reuse and recovery speed of a group friend for 30 secs, but CANNOT be cast on yourself.  Real nice that, for other spellcasters yup yup.Oh wait, 4th ability in the STA line speeds up our basic single target CURE spells.  You know, cure trauma, cure noxious....I *think* I have that one correct. I.e. it ain't worth all that much. 

[Notsovilepriest]

I can completely agree with the assessment on group wards. It takes 5seconds to cast them and then the way its a collective ward, pretty much breaks in 1 AoE...I mean it seems like the least time effective thing in the world, and is broken before the refresh timer is at 10 seconds. Templars w/ inq can use Divine Recovery and their Leg EoF set bonus to help them on casting speed. Shamans get squat!

[Bozidar]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can completely agree with the assessment on group wards. It takes 5seconds to cast them and then the way its a collective ward, pretty much breaks in 1 AoE...I mean it seems like the least time effective thing in the world, and is broken before the refresh timer is at 10 seconds. Templars w/ inq can use Divine Recovery and their Leg EoF set bonus to help them on casting speed. Shamans get squat!</blockquote><p>I guess it's comforting then to know that your heals themselves are the best in the game, even if they take longer to cast?</p><p>Really? that doesn't make you feel any better?</p><p>A warlock drops Rift on a group that's been warded by a shaman.. and every ounce of that ward is used up.  It's a direct 1-1 to prevent the damage.</p><p>A warlock drops Rift on a group that's been reactive-ward'd by a cleric.  And exactly 1 proc goes off of that ward for each player.</p><p>It's WAY easier for a high-burst class to break straight through reactives vs wards.  And HOTs do squat for you at full health, you have to get them up over and over again.</p><p>Wards == best heals in the game.</p><p>Im comfortable with them taking longer to cast.</p>

[Mighty Melvor]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>To the SOE devs: It's time to really reconsider the excessively long cast times that clerics and shamans requires for their group heal/ward.To put it mildly, 5 seconds is simply unviable in pvp.  As a matter of fact I know shamans who don't even bother to cast it in PvE because it is sooooooooo slowwwwwwwwww.Shall I say it again?  5 seconds is an eternity in pvp, it makes our group heals/wards practically unusable not only because of the ridiculously long cast times but because of the opportunities to interrupt.Why can't you give us the same cast times that druids do?  Or if not the same, at least shave off 1 sec.  Throwing points into AAs is not an answer and besides, I believe that only clerics have that option anyway.  Shamans don'tThis is not beating a dead horse.  The horse won't die.  There is no longer any real reason to have such long cast times for these critical spells of ours.   It simply deprives us of their use.</blockquote><p>To be honest, this post belongs in the class discussion.  Changing the casting time of a spell would also impact PvE.  Marr knows, we wouldn't want to give the conspiracy theorists something to chew on!</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

Just curious...Do you play a shaman at high tiers?Yes I can word a whole rift almost...if in the time casting I'm not interupted or anything. Mystics and Defilers are the most interuptable of all the healers in this game. Here is a little tibbit for you:Group Ward(5 Second Cast)Druid Group Heal(1.5 Second Cast)That is 2.5 druid group heals in the time it takes 1 group ward to be cast. And If damage is done with a shaman, We have the weakest heals other than furies because Furies are mages w/ heals.

[Badaxe Ba]

not to mention that wards only heal if they haven't been eaten up by damage.  A mystic's advantage lies in being able to precast before a fight, a very variable situation.  PvE wise, this usually isn't a problem, until the fight starts.  PvP is a different matter altogether.  A little reduction in casting time via AA's would be a nice bolster there.

[Oneira]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can completely agree with the assessment on group wards. It takes 5seconds to cast them and then the way its a collective ward, pretty much breaks in 1 AoE...I mean it seems like the least time effective thing in the world, and is broken before the refresh timer is at 10 seconds. Templars w/ inq can use Divine Recovery and their Leg EoF set bonus to help them on casting speed. Shamans get squat!</blockquote><p>I guess it's comforting then to know that your heals themselves are the best in the game, even if they take longer to cast?</p><p>Really? that doesn't make you feel any better?</p><p>A warlock drops Rift on a group that's been warded by a shaman.. and every ounce of that ward is used up.  It's a direct 1-1 to prevent the damage.</p><p>A warlock drops Rift on a group that's been reactive-ward'd by a cleric.  And exactly 1 proc goes off of that ward for each player.</p><p>It's WAY easier for a high-burst class to break straight through reactives vs wards.  And HOTs do squat for you at full health, you have to get them up over and over again.</p><p>Wards == best heals in the game.</p><p>Im comfortable with them taking longer to cast.</p></blockquote>Whoa Nellie. The best heals in the game?  Maybe.  And maybe not.1)  The best heals in the game are the heals that go off.  See Notsovilepriest's reply on that.2)  Against spells like Fusion or Rift, a cleric or druid can often get their group heal off ahead of the spell.  Shamans?  same casting time for their group ward as the biggest and baddest damage spells out there, 5 seconds. Let me put it to you this way.  If I am being attacked by another player, it is almost impossible--IMPOSSIBLE--for me to get off a group ward.And did I forget to mention?  Warlocks and Wizzies get AAs to reduce their casting times on those big, big spells.  yeah. . . .

[Gagla]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious...Do you play a shaman at high tiers?Yes I can word a whole rift almost...if in the time casting I'm not interupted or anything. Mystics and Defilers are the most interuptable of all the healers in this game. Here is a little tibbit for you:Group Ward(5 Second Cast)Druid Group Heal(1.5 Second Cast)That is 2.5 druid group heals in the time it takes 1 group ward to be cast. And If damage is done with a shaman, We have the weakest heals other than furies because Furies are mages w/ heals.</blockquote>I'm sure we can all agree we'd rather have a group ward up than a group HoT, when someone gets decapped or PT'd, though. Group Wards(like reactives) Can have all their healing affect one person if they're the only one taking damage(unlike their HoT counterparts).

[Roald]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious...Do you play a shaman at high tiers?Yes I can word a whole rift almost...if in the time casting I'm not interupted or anything. Mystics and Defilers are the most interuptable of all the healers in this game. Here is a little tibbit for you:Group Ward(5 Second Cast)Druid Group Heal(1.5 Second Cast)That is 2.5 druid group heals in the time it takes 1 group ward to be cast. And If damage is done with a shaman, We have the weakest heals other than furies because Furies are mages w/ heals.</blockquote>Actually, the comparative druid heal is the Grp HoT, which is 3 seconds. <p>And Ward/reactives should take longer to cast. They can be FAR more effective that Grp hots. Firstly, they can be used entirely on one person. Secondly they can be put up before the fight begins much more efftively than HoTs. Not to mention they are actually viable solo.</p><p>Theres a reason Sony made the priest cast time the way they are.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious...Do you play a shaman at high tiers?Yes I can word a whole rift almost...if in the time casting I'm not interupted or anything. Mystics and Defilers are the most interuptable of all the healers in this game. Here is a little tibbit for you:Group Ward(5 Second Cast)Druid Group Heal(1.5 Second Cast)That is 2.5 druid group heals in the time it takes 1 group ward to be cast. And If damage is done with a shaman, We have the weakest heals other than furies because Furies are mages w/ heals.</blockquote>Actually, the comparative druid heal is the Grp HoT, which is 3 seconds. <p>And Ward/reactives should take longer to cast. They can be FAR more effective that Grp hots. Firstly, they can be used entirely on one person. Secondly they can be put up before the fight begins much more efftively than HoTs. Not to mention they are actually viable solo.</p><p>Theres a reason Sony made the priest cast time the way they are.</p></blockquote>Look at a PvP parse against a Wardens group...Their Top heal will be Wave of Healing...Not their group HoT. Group HoT doesn't split the heal amount among everyone...each person gets the heal...Wards are COLLECTIVE.

[Aerlyn]

I can definitely understand the frustration with this aspect of playing a shaman.  My issue isn't necessarily with the cast time (although it does feel like eternity to cast) so much as just the sheer amount of interrupts that occur when casting.Shamans don't get much dps, our avoidance sucks, so the only thing we really have going for us, I feel, is the ability to survive and out-last our attackers, until our damage finally does catch up to them.  However, our main survival tools are a single target ward (2 seconds to cast, I think) and our group ward (5 seconds to cast).  The single target ward helps some, but often isn't enough to stay alive.  If you're lucky, it wards you long enough to get your group ward up.  Getting the group ward up usually means  that I have a chance.  Without it, probably not, unless I'm fighting 1 on 1 against someone with really low dps.However, getting that group ward up can be anywhere from "fairly difficult" to "impossible" with even just 1 person beating on me, depending on the opponent.  If the opponent has interrupt abilities and uses them wisely, then I'm basically dead meat every time.  I'm not saying those people shouldn't be able to use their interrupts; that's part of their class abilities and that's what they're for.  However, it's incredibly frustrating that I have basically no chance.  Maybe there's some fancy trick that I haven't learned or something that would help in those situations; I certainly won't claim to be great at pvp or anything.  Not every fight is like that (we have our advantages, sure), but a number of them are.I really do like my character, but it's no fun to fight and feel like you have no chance.

[Menji]

<p>Had a 48 defiler on a pve server which was good for groups if everything went well, but if dps pulled aggro or there were adds, there is a good chance someone is going to die.</p><p>Had a warden, and given the same situation as above it is by far easier to recover and keep all alive and alot less stress full. Can't imagine playing a defiler in pvp, for those that do and can my hats off to you.</p><p>Shamans are good for groups if there is a druid in the group also.</p>

[Naglfar]

<p>Roll with a guard, and your problem will be solved !</p><p>2 group taunts, reinforcement, stone sphere, sentinel, intercede, avoidance buff = happy defiler <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious...Do you play a shaman at high tiers?Yes I can word a whole rift almost...if in the time casting I'm not interupted or anything. Mystics and Defilers are the most interuptable of all the healers in this game. Here is a little tibbit for you:Group Ward(5 Second Cast)Druid Group Heal(1.5 Second Cast)That is 2.5 druid group heals in the time it takes 1 group ward to be cast. And If damage is done with a shaman, We have the weakest heals other than furies because Furies are mages w/ heals.</blockquote>Actually, the comparative druid heal is the Grp HoT, which is 3 seconds. <p>And Ward/reactives should take longer to cast. They can be FAR more effective that Grp hots. Firstly, they can be used entirely on one person. Secondly they can be put up before the fight begins much more efftively than HoTs. Not to mention they are actually viable solo.</p><p>Theres a reason Sony made the priest cast time the way they are.</p></blockquote>I think you're missing the point.  The effectiveness of wards is true, although there are situations where HOTs are actually better.  It's the cast time of the group ward.  It is excessive to the point where we simply cannot use them in combat.The only time I am able to use group ward in pvp is before a fight.  That means I have to see them coming.  Yes, then I can get a group ward off, but that is also not a sure thing.  Many, many times I have seen toon/group coming, and either started casting group ward right away or thrown up single target ward on myself first and then going for the group ward, and either way I have not been able to get it off before I am interrupted.So even pre-warding is not as easy or effective as you think.Simply put, we need the cast time lowered.

[Elephanton]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>biggest and baddest damage spells </blockquote><p>Sorry for offtopic, English is not my native language, but is "baddest" correct word to use here?I thought there are no words "badder" and "baddest" in English language, instead one should say "worse" and "worst"?</p>

[Aerlyn]

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>biggest and baddest damage spells </blockquote><p>Sorry for offtopic, English is not my native language, but is "baddest" correct word to use here?I thought there are no words "badder" and "baddest" in English language, instead one should say "worse" and "worst"?</p></blockquote>"baddest" is used here as slang.  In this case "baddest" doesn't mean the same thing as "worst" because in this context "bad" actually means "good" or "awesome".

[Bozidar]

<p>Cuz he's bad, bad Leroy Brown</p><p>Baddest man in the whole [Removed for Content] town</p><p>Badder than ole' king kong</p><p>and meaner than a junkyard dog.. </p><p>So the two men, took to fightin'</p><p>And when they pulled them from the floor</p><p>Leroy looked like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone</p>

[Tae]

Personally I feel it should stay as it is. I've fought pre-warded Mystics before in the duels and there's absolutely no chance for me to beat them. If I couldn't interrupt their wards because they were casting at a decent speed, Mystics would suddenly become true PvP gods. It seems a fair trade off to me because of how effective they are.

[Elephanton]

<p>Thanks for clarification <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yes, I did hear this song, you are right!</p>

[rvbarton]

<p>I completely agree with the OP.</p><p>As it is now, I simply cannot stand PVP because of the lack of utility Mystics have.  Wards take too long to cast, and are too easily removed with various utilities...  (i.e. brigan buff removal CA...  Pumice stones...) yes, our wards are stripped as if they were buffs...  </p><p>Cures are of no use in PVP because of the cure timer.</p><p>ST & Group heals are useless because they are so minor and long casting.</p><p>How about adjusting our group ward?  Instead of being a collective, group number of 2500 pts of damage shielded from the group, make it  individual, where every person in the group receives 2500 pts of damage prevention...  It's not overpowering, and it stands in line with group heals from other classes.</p><p>Just a bit of utility please?  Heck, we dont' even get group SoW, not to get started on THAT topic...!</p>

[MaCloud1032]

<p>The thing is in PvE clerics and shamans are the main healers with druid as spot shine.  In PvE druids are spot healers they heal the burst that goes thru the ward/reactive.  </p><p>In PvP it is the druid that is the main healer and the cleric/shaman that is back up.  PvP comes down to whos got the biggest dps that comes in bursts.</p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Taear@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally I feel it should stay as it is. I've fought pre-warded Mystics before <span style="color: #ff0033;">in the duels</span> and there's absolutely no chance for me to beat them. If I couldn't interrupt their wards because they were casting at a decent speed, Mystics would suddenly become true PvP gods. It seems a fair trade off to me because of how effective they are. </blockquote>Huge difference between PvP and a duel my friend.  In a duel I am free to pre-ward myself without interruption before the fight starts.  In PvP it's me the shaman getting stunned and thrown back by you, the brigand or assassin, then trying my damndest to get a ward up without being interrupted/stifled/stunned again.   That fabulous group ward that *might* absorb all of your damage (unless you use your brigand taunt to dispel it) is simply out of the question.With my single target ward plus my mediocre heals (the worst of all the healing classes) there's no way I can keep up with the amount of damage you, the brigand or assassin or ranger or swash, are doing to me.

[Oneira]

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The thing is in PvE clerics and shamans are the main healers with druid as spot shine.  In PvE druids are spot healers they heal the burst that goes thru the ward/reactive.  </p><p>In PvP it is the druid that is the main healer and the cleric/shaman that is back up.  PvP comes down to whos got the biggest dps that comes in bursts.</p></blockquote>I would agree with that assessment.  Very often a group fight in pvp requires a druid to get the HOTs going as fast as possible, which keeps the party alive long enough for the secondary healer, namely us, to get a ward up.  In the end, the druid will probably have contributed more to the group's survival than the shaman simply because of the multiple HOTs and fast heals they've gotten off next to our slower heals and snail-like wards.There's a good reason why Warden seems to be the #1 requested healer for groups.  I've been in several groups, and I am almost always looked on as the second healer because my wards are too slow and thus I cannot be relied upon to shield the group from damage at a moment's notice.

[Norrsken]

In pvp, there is tactic to healing. Bring a druid for kneejerk reaction healing, and a cleric or a shammy for a steady output of heals.someone drops to metric tons of dps on a group member? the cleric and shammy have no way of getting on the ball there, not alone, and they will play catch up with the incoming damage until the person dies due to an interrupt. Even a cleric and a shammy together will still play catch up with the incoming damage. the person wont die, but it will be nerve wrecking. Now, pick a druid for kneejerk responses healing. They will get the person back into at least yellow before the cleric/shammy gets their heal off, and when the cleric or shammy has their heals going, the druid will get the health back to 100% and either move on to the next person in need of heals, or switch to dps while the other healer keeps trucking now that they dont have to play catch. More tactics in pvp than pve. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Aerlyn]

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>In pvp, there is tactic to healing. Bring a druid for kneejerk reaction healing, and a cleric or a shammy for a steady output of heals.someone drops to metric tons of dps on a group member? the cleric and shammy have no way of getting on the ball there, not alone, and they will play catch up with the incoming damage until the person dies due to an interrupt. Even a cleric and a shammy together will still play catch up with the incoming damage. the person wont die, but it will be nerve wrecking. Now, pick a druid for kneejerk responses healing. They will get the person back into at least yellow before the cleric/shammy gets their heal off, and when the cleric or shammy has their heals going, the druid will get the health back to 100% and either move on to the next person in need of heals, or switch to dps while the other healer keeps trucking now that they dont have to play catch. More tactics in pvp than pve. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>No argument to what you're saying.  A lot of my experience is solo, though.  And in those situations we're not talking about an interrupt or two that cause you to get the ward up a little later than normal.  We're talking about 3, 4, 5, or 6 interrupts and then finally your spell is just interrupted completely, so you have to wait a second or so before you can begin casting anything again.  At that point, I usually consider my options.  I could try to recast, if I thought there might be a chance to succeed.  I might also use my emergency 5 second mez to give me a few seconds to start casting something, usually a ward again.So it kind of feels like this:Start casting.50% done, interrupted.  Darn.  But ok, that happens.10% done, interrupted.  Ok, but it was just 10%, so I didn't waste that much time.  Maybe I can let it keep going and try to get it completed.75% done, interrupted.  Now it's starting to look bad.40% done, interrupted.  At this point, things might start to look pretty hopeless.You're spending maybe 10+ seconds trying to cast a 5 second spell that is pretty critical to your survival, and if it's being interrupted that much, then it's likely that you won't even finish casting it at all.Just my perspective.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Aerlyn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>In pvp, there is tactic to healing. Bring a druid for kneejerk reaction healing, and a cleric or a shammy for a steady output of heals.someone drops to metric tons of dps on a group member? the cleric and shammy have no way of getting on the ball there, not alone, and they will play catch up with the incoming damage until the person dies due to an interrupt. Even a cleric and a shammy together will still play catch up with the incoming damage. the person wont die, but it will be nerve wrecking. Now, pick a druid for kneejerk responses healing. They will get the person back into at least yellow before the cleric/shammy gets their heal off, and when the cleric or shammy has their heals going, the druid will get the health back to 100% and either move on to the next person in need of heals, or switch to dps while the other healer keeps trucking now that they dont have to play catch. More tactics in pvp than pve. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>No argument to what you're saying.  A lot of my experience is solo, though.  And in those situations we're not talking about an interrupt or two that cause you to get the ward up a little later than normal.  We're talking about 3, 4, 5, or 6 interrupts and then finally your spell is just interrupted completely, so you have to wait a second or so before you can begin casting anything again.  At that point, I usually consider my options.  I could try to recast, if I thought there might be a chance to succeed.  I might also use my emergency 5 second mez to give me a few seconds to start casting something, usually a ward again.So it kind of feels like this:Start casting.50% done, interrupted.  Darn.  But ok, that happens.10% done, interrupted.  Ok, but it was just 10%, so I didn't waste that much time.  Maybe I can let it keep going and try to get it completed.75% done, interrupted.  Now it's starting to look bad.40% done, interrupted.  At this point, things might start to look pretty hopeless.You're spending maybe 10+ seconds trying to cast a 5 second spell that is pretty critical to your survival, and if it's being interrupted that much, then it's likely that you won't even finish casting it at all.Just my perspective.</blockquote>In 1 on 1 fights, group heals are not even worth considering casting on a cleric or shammy. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Roald]

<p>I know Iv got at least 1 T7 defiler PvP video, and they dont seem to have any of the problems you guys are talking about. Even solo, one guy seems perfectly capable of getting of wards/heals and even group wards off against scouts.</p><p>Do you defilers maybe get an AA line that gives a focus bonus? Do you use ur long duration fear when you need to buy some healing time?</p>

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Aerlyn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're spending maybe 10+ seconds trying to cast a 5 second spell that is pretty critical to your survival, and if it's being interrupted that much, then it's likely that you won't even finish casting it at all.Just my perspective.</blockquote><p>Just an idea here... you might try your single-target spells. They have shorter cast times. If you're a defiler you also have fear. Presumably Mystics get something along those lines as well.</p><p>When I played a Wizard on the Test server (insta-70 FTW!) casting Fusion was a sure-fire way to get my tokens taken. Once I started leading with stuns and roots instead I started winning. I never once won a fight that I used Fusion in. It's too much time where you're standing there drooling on your shoes. In a 1v1, why spend the time trying to cast your group ward anyways?</p>

[Aerlyn]

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aerlyn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're spending maybe 10+ seconds trying to cast a 5 second spell that is pretty critical to your survival, and if it's being interrupted that much, then it's likely that you won't even finish casting it at all.Just my perspective.</blockquote><p>Just an idea here... you might try your single-target spells. They have shorter cast times. If you're a defiler you also have fear. Presumably Mystics get something along those lines as well.</p><p>When I played a Wizard on the Test server (insta-70 FTW!) casting Fusion was a sure-fire way to get my tokens taken. Once I started leading with stuns and roots instead I started winning. I never once won a fight that I used Fusion in. It's too much time where you're standing there drooling on your shoes. In a 1v1, why spend the time trying to cast your group ward anyways?</p></blockquote>Yes, you're right.  And I made a small mention in a previous post that not every fight is like I was describing.  I didn't mean to make it sound like every fight it was absolutely necessary to cast a group ward, though I realize now that's how I worded it; it really just depends on the fight.  Though facing a high dps opponent, it's hard to keep up otherwise.  At 38, there aren't many tools available to keep enemies at bay.  There's a 5 second aoe mez with a 15 minute recast.  Other than that, there are a couple of spells that reduce attack speed.

[boon515]

<p>How many of you guys have actually played a higher lvl shammy? No, I DON'T mean Iquisitor or Templar or Warden or Fury...I mean a shammy (Mystic/Defiler). There cast times are awful. The OP is right. Give them some way to reduce it or some means that allow them to be uninterruptable. Druids are short casters and clerics get AAs to help out. The shammy just takes it in the [Removed for Content]....very unpleasureable.</p>

[Brightspring]

<p>I've played every healer class except templar in PvP, 3 of them to champion or higher and 2 with well over 5K kills (both 70 wardens atm — long story), so I think I have some knowledge of how each class works.  My 3rd champion is a T4 mystic who soloed or duoed with a swashie exclusively in PvP.  The OP is right that the group ward has too long a cast time to make it useful in PvP if you're constantly getting interrupted.  However, if you have a tank or even a brig/swash who can taunt them off you those wards are invaluable.</p><p>Both clerics and shamans essentially get the ability to add an enormous amount of HP to their group members.  Clerics in the form of their group and individual buffs and shamans in the form of buffs and wards.  Adept 3 Essence of the Great Bear adds only 281 HP to my group members, barely noticeable on a tank with 10K HP self-buffed.  Druid HoTs only apply <u>after</u> damage is inflicted.  I can't heal a dead wizard and I can do little other than a short-term elemental ward to prevent damage.</p><p>One of my best fights ever was way back when Rhiannon first dinged 62.  She was in a group with 5 70s, including Chris, the supermystic.  The 6 of us ran around Sinking Sands fighting whoever we found.  Chris would periodically stop the group and say, "Ward."  (And yes, I finally said, "Yes, June?&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Finally we had the battle royale against about 10 level 70 Freeps.  The 2 fighters in the group just gave up on taunting them off me and let Chris keep me up while I tanked the whole fight with my uber green-con druid taunt.  We killed them all a couple of times before we finally ran out of power and got zerged to death.  But without a mystic who knew how to play his class we would have been dead in less than a minute, other than Jogo who had an amazing amount of HP and was pretty much invulnerable to melee before they changed avoidance.</p><p>On her way up to 70, Brid grouped quite a bit with another mystic who knew his class.  He made her life boring <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />, reducing her mostly to just curing impairments and randomly sic'iing her puppies on some caster.</p><p>As to the amount of damage shamans can inflict, I've fought a few who were melee spec'ed and they gave me quite a pounding.  And, true story, I once saw Waking kill Riot in about 20 seconds.  He was meleeing him for about 1K a shot.  I'm lucky to break double digits with my little hammer.  That's why I leave the dps to those who do it best.</p>

[Oneira]

A few points are needed here to clarify the issue.  It's not whether shamans are effective or not or whether wards are the best form of "healing" in the game, but about how difficult it is to use group wards in group pvp.  We're not talking about solo action here.  Group wards are great WHEN you can get them up, but under the present circumstances it's difficult to the point where they are often times not even worth trying to cast.   Consequently, the argument that things should stay the way they are because wards are more effective than HOT or reactive healing is flawed.Druids get the shortest heals in the game.  Clerics get several ways to shorten their casting times AND not be interrupted.  What do shamans get?  The big goose-egg.  Immunization is the closest thing that mystics get to that --it lasts for a whole 15 secs, has a 3 minute timer and sits at the bottom of the most worthless AA line in the whole bunch.--and it does not prevent interruption.  There is every reason for shamans to demand either a reduction to the casting time of their group ward or a way of not being interrupted.

[jam3]

thats why in tier 7 pre casting wards and keeping them up while your doing nothing is key, you never know when someone is coming. This is though considering you are in a strong group that can fight almost any group.

[Brightspring]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>A few points are needed here to clarify the issue.  It's not whether shamans are effective or not or whether wards are the best form of "healing" in the game, but about how difficult it is to use group wards in group pvp.  We're not talking about solo action here.  Group wards are great WHEN you can get them up, but under the present circumstances it's difficult to the point where they are often times not even worth trying to cast.   Consequently, the argument that things should stay the way they are because wards are more effective than HOT or reactive healing is flawed.Druids get the shortest heals in the game.  Clerics get several ways to shorten their casting times AND not be interrupted.  What do shamans get?  The big goose-egg.  Immunization is the closest thing that mystics get to that --it lasts for a whole 15 secs, has a 3 minute timer and sits at the bottom of the most worthless AA line in the whole bunch.--and it does not prevent interruption.  There is every reason for shamans to demand either a reduction to the casting time of their group ward or a way of not being interrupted.</blockquote><p>Once again, I can't heal a dead wizard.  Druid HoTs are great for restoring HP but if someone gets hit for more damage than they have HP, all we can do is res them.  I've seen many a clothie one-shotted by a PT or IN that critted.  I think Rift can do that, too.  <u>I've</u> been nearly one-shotted by a PT crit.</p><p>I agree completely that if you don't get those wards going before the fight starts you're playing a losing game of catch-up.  But as Dark said, shamans consistently top the heal parses in PvE.  This is because, for the most part, PvE is predictable and you know when to preward.  Druids are good for PvP because we can adapt more quickly because of our faster casting HoTs.  On the other hand, my leather armor frequently makes me the first target in PvP, so maybe they should let me wear chain and give shamans faster cast times on their wards.</p><p>I think as a shaman you either have to run with a really good scout who can warn you that you need to start casting that group ward or just keep stopping the group every few seconds to recast it when you know you're likely to run into PvP.</p><p>All 3 healer classes have their advantages and disadvantages.  Clerics have the best HP buffs, their reactives take a moderate amount of time to cast, and they can wear plate.  Shamans only get chain armor (still better than leather), they have a nice regenerative group ward buff, they have power-efficient wards that in some cases are the only thing that can keep the frailer members of their groups up through high burst damage, but the wards take longer to cast.  Druids are stuck with leather armor, but their HoTs are the fastest casting class-defining heals.</p><p>If shamans got faster casting wards people would start complaining with some justification that they are overpowered.</p><p>I'm not saying that there's no room for tweaking any class, but we're kind of focusing on one thing that makes shamans less powerful than they could be and overlooking all the advantages they have over other healer classes.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Rhiannon@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Once again, I can't heal a dead wizard.  Druid HoTs are great for restoring HP but if someone gets hit for more damage than they have HP, all we can do is res them.  I've seen many a clothie one-shotted by a PT or IN that critted.  I think Rift can do that, too.  <u>I've</u> been nearly one-shotted by a PT crit.</p><p>I agree completely that if you don't get those wards going before the fight starts you're playing a losing game of catch-up.  But as Dark said, shamans consistently top the heal parses in PvE.  This is because, for the most part, PvE is predictable and you know when to preward.  Druids are good for PvP because we can adapt more quickly because of our faster casting HoTs.  On the other hand, my leather armor frequently makes me the first target in PvP, so maybe they should let me wear chain and give shamans faster cast times on their wards.</p><p>I think as a shaman you either have to run with a really good scout who can warn you that you need to start casting that group ward or just keep stopping the group every few seconds to recast it when you know you're likely to run into PvP.</p><p>All 3 healer classes have their advantages and disadvantages.  Clerics have the best HP buffs, their reactives take a moderate amount of time to cast, and they can wear plate.  Shamans only get chain armor (still better than leather), they have a nice regenerative group ward buff, they have power-efficient wards that in some cases are the only thing that can keep the frailer members of their groups up through high burst damage, but the wards take longer to cast.  Druids are stuck with leather armor, but their HoTs are the fastest casting class-defining heals.</p><p>If shamans got faster casting wards people would start complaining with some justification that they are overpowered.</p><p>I'm not saying that there's no room for tweaking any class, but we're kind of focusing on one thing that makes shamans less powerful than they could be and overlooking all the advantages they have over other healer classes.</p></blockquote><img src="http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/21251.jpg" alt="" width="469" height="840" border="0" />

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>Rhiannon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>A few points are needed here to clarify the issue.  It's not whether shamans are effective or not or whether wards are the best form of "healing" in the game, but about how difficult it is to use group wards in group pvp.  We're not talking about solo action here.  Group wards are great WHEN you can get them up, but under the present circumstances it's difficult to the point where they are often times not even worth trying to cast.   Consequently, the argument that things should stay the way they are because wards are more effective than HOT or reactive healing is flawed.Druids get the shortest heals in the game.  Clerics get several ways to shorten their casting times AND not be interrupted.  What do shamans get?  The big goose-egg.  Immunization is the closest thing that mystics get to that --it lasts for a whole 15 secs, has a 3 minute timer and sits at the bottom of the most worthless AA line in the whole bunch.--and it does not prevent interruption.  There is every reason for shamans to demand either a reduction to the casting time of their group ward or a way of not being interrupted.</blockquote><p>Once again, I can't heal a dead wizard.  Druid HoTs are great for restoring HP but if someone gets hit for more damage than they have HP, all we can do is res them.  I've seen many a clothie one-shotted by a PT or IN that critted.  I think Rift can do that, too.  <u>I've</u> been nearly one-shotted by a PT crit.</p><p>I agree completely that if you don't get those wards going before the fight starts you're playing a losing game of catch-up.  But as Dark said, shamans consistently top the heal parses in PvE.  This is because, for the most part, PvE is predictable and you know when to preward.  Druids are good for PvP because we can adapt more quickly because of our faster casting HoTs.  <b>On the other hand, my leather armor frequently makes me the first target in PvP, so maybe they should let me wear chain and give shamans faster cast times on their wards.</b></p><p>I think as a shaman you either have to run with a really good scout who can warn you that you need to start casting that group ward or just keep stopping the group every few seconds to recast it when you know you're likely to run into PvP.</p><p>All 3 healer classes have their advantages and disadvantages.  Clerics have the best HP buffs, their reactives take a moderate amount of time to cast, and they can wear plate.  Shamans only get chain armor (still better than leather), they have a nice regenerative group ward buff, they <b>have power-efficient wards </b>that in some cases are the only thing that can keep the frailer members of their groups up through high burst damage, but the wards take longer to cast.  Druids are stuck with leather armor, but their HoTs are the fastest casting class-defining heals.</p><p>If shamans got faster casting wards people would start complaining with some justification that they are overpowered.</p><p>I'm not saying that there's no room for tweaking any class, but we're kind of focusing on one thing that makes shamans less powerful than they could be and overlooking all the advantages they have over other healer classes.</p></blockquote>About the leather armor, I am in fully fabled chain gear as a Mystic and a fully Fabled Warden has as much mit as me...and Higher avoidance, So You may want to look deeper into this before posting.I can only talk about Fury power cost here:ST Regen: 190 Power at Master 1ST Ward: 182 Power At Master1Group Regen: 356 Power at Master 1Group Ward: 340 Power at Master 1There isn't much difference, AND Druids have the highest power pool to start with of any of the other healer classes, Therefore their power cost should be higher.We will also get with the druids having fastest run speed of all the healers, and the ability to port which is extremely wonderful in PvP. Also the ability to root without having to invest AA, and the ability to get away (Pact and Evac). Yes, Druid buffs are worse than a shamans, but they had to give us something. We can't heal damage done at all because the heals are super power ineffective and long cast. Honestly, I know playing the class up to 70 that we NEED casting times reduced on the group wards or at least a way to up our focus or become uninteruptable.Brid you definately care about the leather armor, I will take it in return I would like to have fast cast. The way I see it, wearing leather is an advantage over mystics because a warden can = the mit with the higher avoidance. So...

[Bozidar]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>About the leather armor, I am in fully fabled chain gear as a Mystic and a fully Fabled Warden has as much mit as me...and Higher avoidance, So You may want to look deeper into this before posting.</blockquote>Warden's have to spend AA in order to boost their mitigation.  It's not something inherit in the class, it has to be bought and paid for.

[Errol10]

See: Warden of the Forest line, which increases mitigation.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Errol1001 wrote:</cite><blockquote>See: Warden of the Forest line, which increases mitigation.</blockquote><p>yeah, i know.  and the AA enhancement will give you mitigation of a level appropriate chain wearer, with max points in it, increasing the mitigation buff by 50%.</p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>About the leather armor, I am in fully fabled chain gear as a Mystic and a fully Fabled Warden has as much mit as me...and Higher avoidance, So You may want to look deeper into this before posting.</blockquote>Warden's have to spend AA in order to boost their mitigation.  It's not something inherit in the class, it has to be bought and paid for.</blockquote>Bozidar, consider whether I can reply:Shamans have to spend AA in order to reduce their group ward casting time and/or to make their spells uninterruptable for 24 secs.  It's not something inherit in the class, it has to be bought and paid for.PLEASE, LET ME BUY AND PAY FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT!

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>There isn't much difference, AND Druids have the highest power pool to start with of any of the other healer classes, Therefore their power cost should be higher.</blockquote><p>Not to start. Base power is similar.    Power pool for healers is pretty much armor based.  I can find more leather armor with WIS and + power than I can chain or plate.   </p><p>I can't speak for Fury, but why should Warden's have a higher power cost when Wards are so powerful to counter burst damage? No other healer, not even Clerics, have that ability.    FIguring out how to cast a ward in PvP is part of the challenge, just as figuring out how best to use HoTs without everyone dying before they kick in..is part of a Druid's challenge.   </p><p>If Shaman gets a faster casting time, then the ward's amount would be reduced.  Otherwise, the class would be unfairly overpowered.  To say dismissively..kind of mumbling "oh yeah..I guess my buffs are ok.."  then hammer on heal quality, doesn't really give an accurate picture.  Shaman buffs are very good - bordering on excellent.  Point to one Warden group buff that is as useful as any Shaman one.    </p><p>In fabled leather with a M2 Wolf (my mit buff) ...I do have about as much mitigation as a chain or plate wearer.  Furies don't get that buff (but then Wardens don't get a huge nuke).    But if I'm your average player, I'm NOT in fabled anything, and I might not have Master anything spellwise except those choices the game offers as a training choice.    No class should be designed for the min/max of end game players, and one might see it differently if we all hadn't been at 70 for a really long time.  </p><p>I have a 70 Dreadnaught Warden and 70 Dreadnaught Defiler (before you wonder who TH I am, or why my opinion might be informed) on Venekor.    Both offer challenges and frustrations, but I'd prefer to not see a casting time change for Wards (base casting ...AA's should offer a choice).   Devs are probably not going to push up the base casting time and not take away quality of ward.    If that happens, then they start messing with a class that is one of the better healer/damage control classes around.</p><p>And agreed, this topic would be better addressed in a class forum.  You'll be hard pressed to find support from Druids for this arguement, I think.   Most especially when the arguement to fix a shaman issue includes:  "and take <X> away from <that other class>".    I'm with Rhiannon/Brid on this one (but I usually am <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />)</p><p>I'm 70 Warden, Defiler, Templar:</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>About the leather armor, I am in fully fabled chain gear as a Mystic and a fully Fabled Warden has as much mit as me...and Higher avoidance, So You may want to look deeper into this before posting.</blockquote>Warden's have to spend AA in order to boost their mitigation.  It's not something inherit in the class, it has to be bought and paid for.</blockquote>Bozidar, consider whether I can reply:Shamans have to spend AA in order to reduce their group ward casting time and/or to make their spells uninterruptable for 24 secs.  It's not something inherit in the class, it has to be bought and paid for.PLEASE, LET ME BUY AND PAY FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT!</blockquote><p>k, get rid of my melee line and let me buy aa that turns my HOTs into a ward..</p><p>then you can stay home on raids, k?</p>

[Oneira]

As the OP, I will offer this as my final post (let's pray) which shall serve both as a kind of rebuttal and a plea, I guess.  I say that because other than a few of us, it seems that the majority of posters here think that in pvp shamans are every bit as good of healers as the others, and if I were to believe some of you, even better.  I'm not going to fight with you about that too much.  Shamans are pretty good.  I never said they weren't.  I was addressing one issue, which I will re-state now.First, the question was about group wards in PvP.  That is why I, the OP, felt justified in putting it here and not in the mystic or defiler forum.  I was not talking about PvE.  In PvE 5 second casting times are an inconvenience that you have to learn to work around, but you can.  It's PvP, pure and simple where the issue arises.To Arielle:  I've always enjoyed your excellent posts on the Warden board, so I'm going to respond to you in detail.  Your argument is essentially the argument of most posters here who disagree with me:  lowering the casting times on wards will make shamans overpowered because wards are better than HOT or reactives and because of what shamans already bring to the fight.I disagree and will try to explain why.First, the main power of a healer in pvp is how well they can keep group members or themselves alive.   A possible way of measuring that effectiveness is to break down healing into 2 elements, which are inseparable in game play:  a) the effectiveness of the heal itself, b) the probability of getting it off, which is a matter of casting time and interruptability.  You say that for a), shamans have the best heals.  OK I accept.  But having the most effective on paper means nothing without b).  Here, druids and clerics are way ahead of shamans.  Please admit that much, they are WAY AHEAD.  Druid group HOTs are 3 secs, Cleric group Reactives can be reduced to a 4 sec cast + uniterruptable for 24 secs.  I'm sorry, but that right there pushes the druid and the cleric past the shaman when it comes to this particular issue, namely, casting your main group heal in PvP.  5 seconds + interruptible is deadly.  If you (not just Arielle) say that this is not a problem, that it is warranted because of the effectiveness of group wards, then I say to you that you are measuring effectiveness with a bent ruler.  Let's say that shamans had either one of the cleric choices, not both just one:  either reducing casting time of the group ward by .2 secs for a max of 1 sec (i.e. a 4 second cast time), or uninterruptibility for 24 secs.  EITHER ONE.  Please tell me how that would make shamans OP?  It wouldn't.   Fact is we need something like this because the impact of b) represents a major negative factor on the effectiveness of our group ward.  Not a minor one, but a MAJOR one.  If you do not see this, then I guess there's no room for discussion.Second, you say that shamans already have a great deal that makes them powerful and that lowering ward cast times would put them over the top.  OK, I want to know how this is so.  Yes, shaman buffs are good, better than druid buffs, but are they really that much better?  Like you, I have a t7 warden so I know the buffs, and although they may not be quite as good overall as a mystic, they're still pretty damm good.  And just take a look at a templar's buffs!  There are certainly things that shamans do well in pvp and in general--buffs and debuffs, melee specc for a mystic etc., but even then, inquisitors make the best melee priests, not mystics.   How then would we be overpowered?  There's too many things to consider for me to agree with that statement as is.  I would need a lot of explanation.Meanwhile, and taking as honest a look at the group ward in pvp, I'll say this:  If I am able to cast a group ward in pvp it is usually as a pre-ward.  The opportunity to pre-ward is very very unpredictable.  After that?  I more of less tell my groupmates that if they see another group ward going off during the combat they should say 10 Hail Marys and kiss my feet.  It does happen. . . when the group on the other side ignores me basically, but any smart group won't.  One of their scouts will make a beeline for me and keep me interrupted.  As I see it, if it takes more than 10 seconds to get a spell off then that is a failure, because in that time party members will probably start dying unless there's another healer in the party.  It is quite easy to get interrupted twice while casting a 5 second ward.  Yes sure, cast my single target ward on me first!  Good idea, but a few heavy hitting CAs and that ward can be brought down long before 5 seconds is up.  Then i'm susceptible to interruption again.  Use your AOE deggro mez!  Trust me I do.  Assuming there's no mobs around that will be aggro'd by it, it will help, assuming no one on me resists, and assuming the 5-minute timer has refreshed.I actually do have some experience with shamans from a different perspective, as a 70 guardian.  Here's what I found: the enemy party has a mystic?  Send one of the scouts after them right away.  Mystics wards are a PITA but not hard to neutralize.  Why?  Because the mystic can only get their single-target ward off if there's a rogue or predator on them.  On the other hand, as a guardian I had to work extra hard to keep the hordes off the defiler if there was one in the group.  I had to taunt the bejeezus out of em, otherwise the defiler would have almost no chance of getting off that wonderful group ward.  The point of my post was to ask one simple thing: give shamans a better chance to get a group ward off in pvp either by an AA choice that reduces the casting time or one that gives them immunity to interruption for a limited time.  To Bozidar:  honestly, that isn't even close to the point.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<p>It can't be the last post because you asked questions!! (lol)...</p><p>I do see your point, please don't think I don't.  From pvping, pve-ing and raiding with a Defiler (and for a really long time..we level locked each tier) ..the group ward is problematic in lots of situations because if its cast time - I agree with that.  On the other hand, what it does is pretty powerful.  I've viewed that cast time as 'payment' for how good it is when cast.  Also part of the shaman strategy when deciding how to use their bag of tricks best.</p><p>It's not impossible to play a shaman in pvp, but is definitely not easy.  One could also argue it's not easy to be a lot of other classes in pvp too - due to ease of killing, prime targetness (thinking warlock here) or other things.   Yes, the tactic is to neutralize the shaman, but if they don't do that..the other side is pretty well screwed trying to damage your group before your group kills them.   That's how valuable/powerful wards are in a fight.</p><p>Look at your buffs between Warden and Mystic.   Huge difference in usefulness and efficacy, particularly in T7 and probably beyond.   I'll be really surprised if any huge changes are coming down the pike to remedy that, either.    A Defiler, for example, can debuff a monk to 0 stats.  0!!   Tell me what a druid can do that even comes close to that in pvp.   Yeah, there's useful utility, but nothing like that.</p><p>Also, we should leave Druids out of it.   Furies were horribly broken a good half of the game.  Anything they have, they deserve..leave 'em alone.  Wardens were broken for awhile too - let's leave them alone as well.   If it is thought those are superior pvp healers, then that should be the one played.  We picked Shaman for a reason, imo..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm not saying leave casting time as it is..everything's fine fine fine, I'm just saying consider the bigger picture.  Changing things so that pvp is a bit easier tends to mess things up for the rest of the game.   Granted, there may be a way to earn a faster cast time - gear, pvp reward items, AA, etc.  But I think it ought to be earned, not just given.      </p><p>Otherwise in order to balance, you have to give something up in order to get that.   I haven't liked the devs' work so far when they 'balance'.  I shudder to think what they'd do in order to comply with this request.    Other than the casting time issue for that spell, shaman is an incredible class, and pvp is not the whole game (I know it's hard to think that way when you pvp day in -day out lol).</p><p>I admire your thoughtfulness whenever you ask a question.  I think this is an interesting discussion.</p>

[Errol10]

Perhaps I'm off, but back before wards were reduced in pvp, I don't remember massive complaints about shaman being overpowered.  Were they?  I haven't played either to high levels, but I did play the healers to low-med levels.  I thought reactives & wards were terrible compared to regens.  They're a good 20% more efficient than reactives, and more like 60% more efficient than wards (power-wise).I also don't see how the single target heals can be balanced (all at 2s cast), while at the same time the group versions can have such different cast times and still be balanced.I can, of course, accept that healers are balanced at the top end - but at the low end, where the main thing you have is your heals, it seemed grossly unfair to me.  I like playing healers, and this is why a warden ended up being my highest char.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>To Bozidar:  honestly, that isn't even close to the point.</blockquote><p>of course it's the point.  You have the best heals in the game, they take the longest to cast.  You want cake + eating it too.</p><p>Druids have the fastest heals in the game, but can't compare with a shaman when it comes to healing/preventing spike damage.</p><p>This isn't rocket science.. we dont need a 12 page dissertation on it.</p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>To Bozidar:  honestly, that isn't even close to the point.</blockquote><p>of course it's the point.  You have the best heals in the game, they take the longest to cast.  You want cake + eating it too.</p><p>Druids have the fastest heals in the game, but can't compare with a shaman when it comes to healing/preventing spike damage.</p><p>This isn't rocket science.. we dont need a 12 page dissertation on it.</p></blockquote>I apologize for writing something more than the usual one to two sentence sound-byte trying to explain why I think that it's not a simple equation of best heals + longest casting time = worst heals + shortest casting time.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Errol1001 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps I'm off, but back before wards were reduced in pvp, I don't remember massive complaints about shaman being overpowered.  Were they?  I haven't played either to high levels, but I did play the healers to low-med levels.  I thought reactives & wards were terrible compared to regens.  They're a good 20% more efficient than reactives, and more like 60% more efficient than wards (power-wise).</blockquote><p>Want to know why you didnt hear massive complaints about shamen in PvP? Because they were about as common as rocking-horse dung. Which is to say that there were almost none that PvP'd.They were (and still are) capable healers, but only when they have a tank who knows how to taunt. As soon as a scout starts hitting them, interupts occur and suddenly their usefulness as a healer is reduced to just below that of a conjuror. Druids have always been the best PvP healers and its due to their cast times. We all know that and it's been said several times in this thread. Wards may work better, they may prevent more damage, they may make keeping someone up alot easier, but when you can't cast them because of their cast times and interupts, their healing potential is wasted.</p><p>Clerics were in the same boat until EoF came  out and they got 50% (i think?) spell haste as their bonus for wearing 6 pieces of their EoF legendary set. The best Templar I've ever met had that set and wore it over anything else... he had access to the fabled set and still chose the legendary one, JUST for that bonus. Xevin was by far the best healer I've ever met (just don't ask him any questions, man could that boy talk... I digress).</p><p>I think the entire point of this post was that wards may look better on paper, but in practise (especially due to the way they're applied over a group vs the group regens) they just dont come close.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Errol1001 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps I'm off, but back before wards were reduced in pvp, I don't remember massive complaints about shaman being overpowered.  Were they?  I haven't played either to high levels, but I did play the healers to low-med levels.  I thought reactives & wards were terrible compared to regens.  They're a good 20% more efficient than reactives, and more like 60% more efficient than wards (power-wise).</blockquote><p>Want to know why you didnt hear massive complaints about shamen in PvP? Because they were about as common as rocking-horse dung. Which is to say that there were almost none that PvP'd.They were (and still are) capable healers, but only when they have a tank who knows how to taunt. As soon as a scout starts hitting them, interupts occur and suddenly their usefulness as a healer is reduced to just below that of a conjuror. Druids have always been the best PvP healers and its due to their cast times. We all know that and it's been said several times in this thread. Wards may work better, they may prevent more damage, they may make keeping someone up alot easier, but when you can't cast them because of their cast times and interupts, their healing potential is wasted.</p><p>Clerics were in the same boat until EoF came  out and they got 50% (i think?) spell haste as their bonus for wearing 6 pieces of their EoF legendary set. The best Templar I've ever met had that set and wore it over anything else... he had access to the fabled set and still chose the legendary one, JUST for that bonus. Xevin was by far the best healer I've ever met (just don't ask him any questions, man could that boy talk... I digress).</p><p>I think the entire point of this post was that wards may look better on paper, but in practise (especially due to the way they're applied over a group vs the group regens) they just dont come close.</p></blockquote>Yes, Even a troub that grasps the concepts the shamans are putting forth. Whenever people ask me why I am unhappy w/ my class, I say "I can't cast anything if someone is hitting me". In group on group fights I feel like a super ineffective troub/dirge. Honestly recently I have been PvP'ing on a guardian and not my Mystic because I'm sick of the super high amount of interupts and slow casts and all that. Every shaman I have talked to wonders why anyone would pick a shaman over a druid for ANY pvp group.

[convict]

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote>To Bozidar:  honestly, that isn't even close to the point.</blockquote><p>of course it's the point. <b> You have the best heals in the game, they take the longest to cast.WRONG! This is pvp not pve. We have to look a t it this way. Best heals in pvp are Wardens. </b> You want cake + eating it too.</p><p>Druids have the fastest heals in the game, but can't compare with a shaman when it comes to healing/preventing spike damage. <b>Wrong again. You cant prevent/heal if you take to long to cast, again, this is another reason why so many ppl play an op warden. Then you have root/snare/dots/nukes/melee/run buff/ports/mitigation buff, etc...</b></p><p>This isn't rocket science.. we dont need a 12 page dissertation on it.<b> Exactly, look around, how many wardens do you see?</b></p></blockquote>

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even a troub that grasps the concepts the shamans are putting forth. <snip></blockquote><p>What do you mean 'even a troub'? I'd kill you for that comment if I had a computer that could run the game!</p><p>BTW, guardians rock!</p>

[Roald]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, Even a troub that grasps the concepts the shamans are putting forth. Whenever people ask me why I am unhappy w/ my class, I say "I can't cast anything if someone is hitting me". In group on group fights I feel like a super ineffective troub/dirge. Honestly recently I have been PvP'ing on a guardian and not my Mystic because I'm sick of the super high amount of interupts and slow casts and all that. Every shaman I have talked to wonders why anyone would pick a shaman over a druid for ANY pvp group.</blockquote><p>Either your focus is horrendous, or your a complete lier.</p><p>I have seen in-game and on videos shamens getting wards of whilst being beaten on. Blindly exagerating the truth doesn't help your cause.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, Even a troub that grasps the concepts the shamans are putting forth. Whenever people ask me why I am unhappy w/ my class, I say "I can't cast anything if someone is hitting me". In group on group fights I feel like a super ineffective troub/dirge. Honestly recently I have been PvP'ing on a guardian and not my Mystic because I'm sick of the super high amount of interupts and slow casts and all that. Every shaman I have talked to wonders why anyone would pick a shaman over a druid for ANY pvp group.</blockquote><p>You don't pick one or the other, you get BOTH.</p><p>You get the druid for the fast heals to recover, and give time for the shaman/cleric to get their wards up.</p><p>You get a tank to taunt people off so that the shaman/cleric and druid can actually CAST their heals..</p><p>and you get some dps and crowd control to do their best to prevent the other team from doing the same things.</p><p>again.. this isnt' rocket science.  It's a team game, with straterigies and EVERYTHING *gasp*.</p><p>You get the druids because this IS pvp, and spike damage will come, and you flat out can't control aggro the way you can in pve.  If you could, why would you even NEED a druid?</p><p>Both classes have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are very much needed in good pvp groups BECAUSE of their alternative strengths.</p><p>If druids had an AA abiltiy that could cuase their heals to turn into wards, or shamans had aa that allowed their best heals in the game to be cast even faster -- you wouldn't need both.  you'd just need one.. and it wouldn't be... (wait for it).... balanced.</p><p>ta da!</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, Even a troub that grasps the concepts the shamans are putting forth. Whenever people ask me why I am unhappy w/ my class, I say "I can't cast anything if someone is hitting me". In group on group fights I feel like a super ineffective troub/dirge. Honestly recently I have been PvP'ing on a guardian and not my Mystic because I'm sick of the super high amount of interupts and slow casts and all that. Every shaman I have talked to wonders why anyone would pick a shaman over a druid for ANY pvp group.</blockquote><p>Either your focus is horrendous, or your a complete lier.</p><p>I have seen in-game and on videos shamens getting wards of whilst being beaten on. Blindly exagerating the truth doesn't help your cause.</p></blockquote>If you want...You wanna see a PvP Video of how much shamans get interupted. I will post you one.

[Notsovilepriest]

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Even a troub that grasps the concepts the shamans are putting forth. <snip></blockquote><p>What do you mean 'even a troub'? I'd kill you for that comment if I had a computer that could run the game!</p><p>BTW, guardians rock!</p></blockquote>I have a troub too so don't take offense <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... Its just a non shaman seeing the point we are trying to make.

[Errol10]

Wards are not the be-all end-all of heals.   They have their own problems. Shaman are also vulnerable to spikes.  All damage taken when a ward isn't up, has to be healed by base heals.  Which take twice as long to cast as a druid's heals.  Spikes don't only occur right after that ward went up.  They also occur right after that ward went down.  And that hp deficit either is going to be left there, or you're going to try to fill it up slowly, with your other heals that have about half as much throughput as a druid's heals. So yeah, if a druid could turn their heals into wards, shaman would be useless.  Considering they would both ward for more, and be much more efficient, and be able to fill the gaps far far easier.  On the other hand, even if they could, there would still be use for the druids that didn't turn their regens into wards, due to the innate disadvantages and advantages of the particular heal types.Obviously, having the shaman group ward on a 4s cast would not make druids useless either.  Just like clerics having spell haste available for AAs doesn't.

[Roald]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, Even a troub that grasps the concepts the shamans are putting forth. Whenever people ask me why I am unhappy w/ my class, I say "I can't cast anything if someone is hitting me". In group on group fights I feel like a super ineffective troub/dirge. Honestly recently I have been PvP'ing on a guardian and not my Mystic because I'm sick of the super high amount of interupts and slow casts and all that. Every shaman I have talked to wonders why anyone would pick a shaman over a druid for ANY pvp group.</blockquote><p>Either your focus is horrendous, or your a complete lier.</p><p>I have seen in-game and on videos shamens getting wards of whilst being beaten on. Blindly exagerating the truth doesn't help your cause.</p></blockquote>If you want...You wanna see a PvP Video of how much shamans get interupted. I will post you one.</blockquote>Please do. Then explain why every defiler I know can get wards up, and you cant.

[Notsovilepriest]

This is an older extremely bad quality video that was hastely slapped together, but I think it still gets the point across.<a href="http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+of+Stormwmv/;8959096;/fileinfo.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+...;/fileinfo.html</a>

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a troub too so don't take offense <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> ... Its just a non shaman seeing the point we are trying to make.</blockquote><p>I don't take offense. Like I've said before, I'm almost always joking <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>By the way, who is this non-shaman you're talking about? (Take a look at my sig, notice the defiler there?)</p>

[Roald]

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is an older extremely bad quality video that was hastely slapped together, but I think it still gets the point across.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+of+Stormwmv/;8959096;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+...;/fileinfo.html</a></blockquote><p>Wow. Even with 5 second longer casting times you only got interrupted about 5% of the time. </p><p>Seriously, that video shows you EASILY getting off the best heals in the game, and I think only 3 times was your 5 seconds ward completely interrupted.</p><p>I think that video ends this thread, seeing as now no one can agrue that shamens can't get wards off.</p><p>Who needs friends when you have enemies like this...</p>

[Oneira]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is an older extremely bad quality video that was hastely slapped together, but I think it still gets the point across.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+of+Stormwmv/;8959096;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+...;/fileinfo.html</a></blockquote><p>Wow. Even with 5 second longer casting times you only got interrupted about 5% of the time. </p><p>Seriously, that video shows you EASILY getting off the best heals in the game, and I think only 3 times was your 5 seconds ward completely interrupted.</p><p>I think that video ends this thread, seeing as now no one can agrue that shamens can't get wards off.</p><p>Who needs friends when you have enemies like this...</p></blockquote>The old phrase, "you see want you want to see," certainly applies to you Milamber.  5%??  Apparently you have already decided that shamans can get their group wards off and are now in the business of misrepresenting facts and calling that proof.Here's what i saw: a lot of scourges and torpors, glacial flames and etheral aegis--our single target ward-- and a few Umbral Liturgies being successfully cast.  When were most of the ULs cast successfully?  As far as I could tell, when Notsovilepriest was free and not being attacked, which when it comes to raid pvp is easier to have happen.  BUt what about when he was being attacked by someone?  Apparently you didn't take notice.  Well I did.  I saw something like a 50% interruption rate to Umbral Liturgy, maybe a tad more.

[Roald]

<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is an older extremely bad quality video that was hastely slapped together, but I think it still gets the point across.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+of+Stormwmv/;8959096;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/Shadows+...;/fileinfo.html</a></blockquote><p>Wow. Even with 5 second longer casting times you only got interrupted about 5% of the time. </p><p>Seriously, that video shows you EASILY getting off the best heals in the game, and I think only 3 times was your 5 seconds ward completely interrupted.</p><p>I think that video ends this thread, seeing as now no one can agrue that shamens can't get wards off.</p><p>Who needs friends when you have enemies like this...</p></blockquote>The old phrase, "you see want you want to see," certainly applies to you Milamber.  5%??  Apparently you have already decided that shamans can get their group wards off and are now in the business of misrepresenting facts and calling that proof.Here's what i saw: a lot of scourges and torpors, glacial flames and etheral aegis--our single target ward-- and a few Umbral Liturgies being successfully cast.  When were most of the ULs cast successfully?  As far as I could tell, when Notsovilepriest was free and not being attacked, which when it comes to raid pvp is easier to have happen.  BUt what about when he was being attacked by someone?  Apparently you didn't take notice.  Well I did.  I saw something like a 50% interruption rate to Umbral Liturgy, maybe a tad more.</blockquote><p>Yes, 5% was referring to all spells cast. group ward was interrupted maybe 10% of the time. When he was taking damage, this increased to around 25%.</p><p>and that means having the spell start casting again, it only got truely interrupted 2-4 times.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

They did leave me alone for part of the fight, but when they sicked a Swash or a Pally on me(Yes a Pally can interupt me). I couldn't get UL up at all...