Zerk's not happy with Guards getting additional AA's [Archive]

LygerT

10-29-2007, 03:55 PM

the reason most zerks are continually on the defensive about changes is we NEVER get any upgrades, we share most of the same nerfs that guards get but at the same time we lack many skill that guardians have had for a very long time while they try to even out the classes. the fact is that guardians can hold aggro as well if not better than zerkers can as they have more tools do it with where we have 2.5 taunts(our most powerful taunt is broken with our AoE range enhancement AAs, which also happens to be our ONLY semi useful EoF end line AA). what i mean is:most of the complaints are basically just rooted from the fact that our suggestions are constantly overlooked by the devs during the changes made(then again whos aren't? but we seem to have no knowledgable advocates for our class giving input to these changes). yes we can do the job and almost equally as well but as time goes on the future looks less promising, as most zerks who have played the game since the start have seen nerf, after nerf, after nerf while not gaining anything to compensate between the 2 classes. what they did was make guardians more like zerkers and kept stealth nerfing the zerkers DPS while giving nothing. guardians retain their double attacks through the EoF tree where zerkers must collect 7(yes the complete set!) of EoF fabled armor to get the 9% to double attack back. the only comparable spell we have to tower of stone and block is our ability to avoid the death effects of death's door which in most cases is not to our advantage anyways. yes we can still DPS better, but only slightly with the changes yes our defensive abilities are lacking and always have. the only reason we managed was because of the difference in our DPS vs defense abilities which that gap has greatly been altered.the main reason we are not excited about 20 more AAs in each tree is the straight fact that it would only net us a little more haste, which will be helpful until haste kicks in in a fight, then it is rather useless and would be in dimishing returns in raid fights anyways. it could be dumped into DPS modifiers which also runs the same course as haste modifiers in raid. they could be dumped into AoE damage but after testing i noticed little to no difference in my personal DPS by taking those AA lines. it could be used to add a small amount of mitigation, which would be a complete waste of AAs if you know how little that much mitigation would help. our EoF tree, we could dump AAs into health regen, WOO WOO! it's already capped anyways... we could dump them in to get a 1% boost to our AoE DPS, WOO WOO! 1% is good isn't it? or we could take one of the multiple broken end line abilities such as gut roar that only works on very few epics and only slightly more heroic mobs in the game and requires you to time the spell PERFECTLY to avoid the incoming stun, stifle, whatever you are trying to avoid. a good question to ask is are guardians forced to use a lower tier defensive spell to avoid taking a HUGE hit to offensive attack skill to be able to keep aggro on them? nope, you have a self skill buff where we lose 91 points of attack skill from offensive to defensive at M1 T7 level and no other methods of fending off some damage aside from that huge loss to aggro aside from using a lower tier spell or stacking the classes to assist in our attack skill losses. there has also been some rumors that SoE is changing zerks to a chain class tank which will put casual players back into a DPS role, where i sure hope they either make up for it with defensive buffs or with a bump to our DPS up more on par with scouts since that is what chain classes are. i just hope they are just that and only rumors, i don't mind changes but some are just a little too much when your role in the game is completely altered, especially when you lead a raid force. i don't so much mind the fact that we have to use our head a little more in timing things or in what gear to choose to wear(a VERY noticable lack of health pool between the 2 classes and temp buffs also which lead more to have to optimize everything rather than just throwing on a suit of armor and tanking) and timing our attacks/debuffs/stances but it does make me a little uneasy knowing that while our 2 classes are being brought closer together the zerk is actually falling down the chain.the fact remains that we were originally mirrored classes where the guardians had heavier armor and more defensive temporary buffs, zerkers were the offensive class where DPS and killing quickly and all around us was what we did and still do best. times changed and we now wear the same armor and DPS is very close together(even though most guards still focus on full defense and lose out on their DPS) yet many of those original differences still exist where the DPS gap is much more narrowed now. in a nutshell that is why most of us are upset, some may betray where others will remain loyal but maybe not 100% happy with how things are turning up. we are a very un-united class with only a small amount of support for each other, which is mainly why our rants about changes are unheard. this is my take on the changes and it will be drown out once again as it always has, then again i am used to it as i must sound like a broken record by now. i know it must be difficult to know which direction to turn these days, either return us to mirrored classes or give us the skills we lack as a plain vanilla DPS tank class.

Salarionn

10-29-2007, 05:42 PM

sorry im not going to get into another Zerker/Guardian debate. Deleted so i dont lose temper and start a flame feast.

Tristin2

10-29-2007, 05:48 PM

Thanks Lyger for your response and comments. Any Guard who would like to have a rebuttle to Lyger's response?

LygerT

10-29-2007, 08:23 PM

i didn't mean to start an argument, i only posted what the current changes that have been made and foreseeable ones in the future on the path we have been on since the question was asked. i don't really envy guardians because i know it is hard to find a spot on any raid unless you have a position already there, otherwise zerkers have a much easier spot fitting in an offtank DPS role. do i feel the changes have been a little unfair? yep, if they continue in the direction they have been. how many people can honestly say they would prefer a zerk MT over a Guardian MT? majority will pick a guardian and i agree with their choice. however if they continue to nerf zerker DPS and do not equal out their tanking abilties then i don't think any of you can deny our rants are unfounded. do i wish to be equals? nope, i rolled a zerker for the term "berserker" entails, which is to kick the living crap out of mobs, not to be equals as top tier tanks.

Dragonlancer

10-29-2007, 10:01 PM

Couple of things you might consider,Guardian = DefenseBerserker = OffenseSo taking that a bit farther you guild has two options, Heal the Mob to death (Defense) or Beat the Mob to death (Offense).Choose an MT that best serves your guild and what you have to work with. Its not really the class thats better, but rather the player. I bet I can roll a Berserker, lvl him to 70, learn all the tricks to the class, and do just as well with him as a MT as my guardian.

salle

10-30-2007, 01:14 AM

A zerker can spec defensively and be a great tank, I've seen my fair share. And why do you say agi line doesn't work, 1 you get another spell to use, get it up to 8 and it does good damage, or just keep it at 4 and still do okay ae damage on big encounters, it's not like you couldn't fit it in is it?, the 40% aa AE proc does infact increase your DPS, but only again st multi mob encounters, 2 is a slight increase, b ut against 10 it's a great increase.(for 2 it's only 40% extra aa dps, for 10 mobs it's actually 360% extra dps)Even if haste and dps are deminishing after 100% if you can get both to 200% raidbuffed you have 125% more auto attack dps, add this to double attack and ae procs and crits you get some AWSOME dps especially on encounters. The only thing I'd wish for if I was a zerker was to actually gain the ability to have 3 specs, 1 raiddps, 1 raidtank, 1 group/solo.

Tyrion

10-30-2007, 01:42 AM

DoF introduced class-defining abilities in the game that still stand to this day and always will.Guardians got: Reinforcement, Sentry Watch and Tower of Stone. All of them are excellent CAs that have very useful applications. Reinforcement is the best snap aggro in the game. Sentry Watch is like a group wide priest death save spell. And Tower of Stone is clutch when it comes to mitigating spike damage, which is always a raid's largest concern.Berserkers got: Insolent Gibe, Visions of Madness and Open Wounds. Once again all great, although I'd measure VoM as being a lesser CA compared to Sentry Watch. Insolent Gibe on the other hand basically guarantees AoE aggro, and that's in addition to the incredible damage potential Open Wounds combined with Destruction bring to the table.What Berserkers are concerned that most Guardians will take the AGI line to get Dragoon's Cyclone to cement AoE aggro. I remind everyone that Guardians have always had this option (what I have on my guardian: Thorren), so it's nothing new to me. So both Berserkers & Guardians gain Acceleration Strike or Dragoon's Cyclone in addition to Str and Sta lines. Of course, Berserkers don't need much help in AoE aggro department, so that's where the perceived shaft is coming into play for their class.I say wait until RoK is out and then make judgements, who knows what new ability Berserkers and Guardians get. Berserkers have always been an extremely powerful class in my opinion, their buffs being on par, 1 to 1 with Guardians. As Dragonlancer said, one will always been offensive in nature, and the other defensive.

knightofround

10-30-2007, 03:03 AM

Unless something changes, from what I've seen in the beta Guardian dps will be moving more in-step with Berserker dps. Both for single target and AE. Largely because a Guardian will get a huge benefit going 4-4-8 AGI, whereas there is literally nowhere, in either tree, for a zerker to put 20/20 more points effectively. But CAs matter as well; right now Zerkers have a T7 offensive stance while Guards are stuck with a T6. But in RoK, both will have T8. Comparing the new level 80 abilities is a joke too.Right now the only thing Berserkers have on Guardians is DPS. Guards have better survivability and better aggro control. Perhaps Zerkers have a slight edge in Blue AE aggro control, but crusaders rock warriors on that anyway, and the difference is largely the zerker 100% AE autoattack.I've never considered betraying a toon before, but if the current RoK additions go forward, myself and many others will be betraying to Guardian. Good luck affording your T8 masters ^_^

LygerT

10-30-2007, 04:33 AM

typically our optimal spec is 448str/44882sta/443int, this is a DPS/tank spec to pick up the riposte and added power.now you have to look at your tree to see where we can go from there with 20AAs in KoS, we could take the additional perma haste and parry(which is not a straight % like riposte but is in diminishing returns and will only net you a few actual % of parry) and then take the CA timer reduction AA to pick up some additional DPS. we could also go down agi to pick up a little more AoE DPS, the defensive buff AAs are a joke as well as the mitigation ones if we could reach them, the DPS gains from the additional AoE would be minimal since we are already AoE focused, guards gain much more from this line than we do. or we could go down wisdom for some DPS modifiers which generally do not do a great deal for auto attack DPS anyways. insolent gibe is our greatest taunt, ever! too bad it doesn't work very well in conjunction with our AoE range enhancement ability in cyclones tree in EoF. if you have ever seen a zerker MT and mobs come from half a mile away then you can guarantee he used gibe, in my opinion the range enhancement needs to be normalized in conjunction with this AA ability to keep it from being a broken skill. without the range enhancement the DPS from open wounds(our temporary AoE frontal attack on limited mobs for a duration) suffers greatly. in our EoF tree, well, i can't really say much there. honestly i could not spend a single of those 20AAs and say i am missing a thing. my beef is with our temp buffs and the fact one of ours is semi broken where guardians have much better tools to work with while gaining stamina, attack skills and better temp buffs while gaining DPS to be on track with ours. next time you see a zerk, inspect their health and gear and think about what you are missing when you are in one of those "oh ****!" moments and you have to slam one of your 3 temporary mitigation/def buffs to TRY and compensate for the lack of health, lack of parry ability, lack of absorption ability and lack of end AGI line ability. believe me, you're not missing any fun times at all. but like i said i was perfectly content with how we were until they decided to tweak the game to bring guardians DPS up to ours and begin our push out of any useful position in the game. the title of the thread is a bit misleading, i don't think any zerker would think they should have more AAs or better than any other class, most just think things need to be worked out a little better than they have been and to maybe have a little time under the microscope instead of being the ignored red-headed step child that we have been for the past 2 years and counting(dramatical phrase, meaning constantly nerfed).

TuinalOfTheNexus

10-30-2007, 07:59 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>the title of the thread is a bit misleading, i don't think any zerker would think they should have more AAs or better than any other class, most just think things need to be worked out a little better than they have been and to maybe have a little time under the microscope instead of being the ignored red-headed step child that we have been for the past 2 years and counting(dramatical phrase, meaning constantly nerfed). </blockquote>I think 2 years is an exaggeration. In KoS Berserker DPS was overpowered. Even Berserkers knew it and were waiting for the nerfbat to come. Thing is, it never did. SoE instead introduced an EoF tree that didn't boost their DPS too much, and brought other classes DPS up instead.Relative to other classes, Berserkers still do very nicely on zonewides. So the problem is more one of Guardian envy than the actual class itself; which let's face it is generally more raid useful than a Crusader or Brawler.And in that case, it's still a simple fact that Berserkers have better CAs for DPS on both single and group encounters. It's absolutely incorrect to compare zonewides for a Guardian MT versus a Berserker in a DPS group, because you absolutely need the best buffs and curing possible on the MT for them to hold aggro.It is still quite simple - for MT you want a Guardian. For any other slot in the raid a Berserker is a better choice. Ask a scout if they prefer a Guardian or Berserker's group buffs. If you betray as OT you're reducing your raids DPS in trade for a slightly bigger comfort zone when you occasionally OT adds.

Ferunnia

10-30-2007, 09:03 AM

Whelp, not much to add other than this: The NDA hasn't been removed, careful what ya talk about. And someone said having 10 mobs makes agi line dps go up by 360%....IDK what yer smokin', but that ain't even close to true. The blue aoe can only hit 8 mobs so yes you'd get a nice dps spike from that many mobs, but our auto attack frontal aoe only hits four frontal mobs.

Aristigon

10-30-2007, 11:08 AM

First off, if you don't suck as a player you'll be able to do just dandy on a zerker.Secondly, if you really want to complain about a tank class and raiding roll a shadowknight.

Cmos

10-30-2007, 12:43 PM

Not trying to argue or anything, but the simple fact is that there was a line between guard and zerk...Guards were a defensive tank that relied on taunts and other methods to hold aggro... The zerk was an offensive tank that relied on dps to hold aggro... that line is now no more... and the guards dps is close to a zerks dps... with the addition of more aa points to spend, that gap will be closed and guards will be able to produce as much dps as a zerk... Unless zerks get a boost in dps or tanking ability... it is clear that the guard will be the better choice for either MT or OT raid role or group situation...I am not envious and I'm not going to jump the fence... Just hoping for some balancing...On a side note: Zerkers WILL NOT EVER NEVER EVER be a chain class... it makes absolutely no sense to even think that.

Cmos

10-30-2007, 12:54 PM

LygerT

10-30-2007, 04:39 PM

that was my whole point was to emphasize the changes being made to each classes DPS where zerk was the DPS tank class, we are no longer at that focus and now compete with classes with better tools at their disposal.

Cmos

10-30-2007, 05:28 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>that was my whole point was to emphasize the changes being made to each classes DPS where zerk was the DPS tank class, we are no longer at that focus and now compete with classes with better tools at their disposal. </blockquote>exactly... I was just emphasizing your emphasis... bottom line something needs to give or we are gonna have a whole lot of guards on our hands...

ailen

10-30-2007, 08:47 PM

I have given this quite a bit of thought. I play on Nagafen (a PvP server) and yes, we do raid at endgame, albeit we get around to it a lot later than most because we have the PvP to keep us occupied. Even then, though, it gets to us that we want to play the rest of the game too.I am the off-tank for the guild, stepping into the role as mt when the situation arises (our guardian isn't online for contesteds or whatnot) and that is my role. I am fine with that. It is the running joke in our guild that "zerkers" cant tank anything, which everyone knows is not true in that every mob in this game has been tanked by a zerker, just people teasing me.My role as off tank is to pickup adds, usually of the multimob encounter type, blow my wad of dps all over the place, and keep aggro while they get burned or the name dies. That is my job. I am good at it, and I enjoy it. a lot of times the guard just stands there, timing blocks, tower of stone, planting, it's a tedious task for sure, but grabbin adds just seems like so much more fun. Well. a Berserker is the candidate for this role. It's basically what we were made for. We lack the defensive abilities to help our healers with spike damage and other things, but we are good in a dps group with our zerk buffs and our 122 str, etc.Now, this is where it gets fuzzy. With 20 more AA points, you can spec the AGI line and get 40% of your autoattack damage to hit the encounter. Now Guardians have increased their ability to hold aoe aggro. This is where things get broken. If you can have a guard be off-tank. Why ON EARTH would you let a berserker? why? no really? dps buffs aren't something that most scouts need at end game, give em a dirge and some gear and they dont need my berserker proc. everyone has plenty of strength.So .. I am not abandoning my berserker. I am power levelling a guardian. If I can buckler spec aoe dps spec my guardian for maximum dps, and STILL KEEP MY GUARDIAN DEFESIVE abilities. Would that NOT BE BETTER than a Berserker? And then BAM, I can step into main tank role any time I'm needed. /ponder.That is why Berserkers are [Removed for Content].

salle

10-30-2007, 10:07 PM

Simple really, zerker got better group buffs for offtank group. and you don't want 2 fighters of the same type in raid if you can help it.

Salarionn

10-30-2007, 10:25 PM

LOL i keep trying to post a comment but always end up mad and find the need to delete them. You guys are never going to be happy.

TuinalOfTheNexus

10-30-2007, 11:31 PM

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote> that should not be the way it is done... You should be able to say for an MT role you want a Guardian, Zerk, SK, Pally or maybe some day even a bruiser or monk (wishful thinking, but maybe one day).</blockquote>You're asking the impossible.What you're suggesting is not that all these classes be able to fill the MT role - because they already can.What you're actually asking is they all be balanced such that they are absolutely 100% equal in the role. This is ridiculous when you think about it. No matter how much classes are tweaked, there will always be one best suited to raid MTing in the eyes of the general playerbase. To me, the fact the class favored for raid MTing is the one that offers least utility and soloability makes perfect sense.It's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it - i.e. have a great solo toon that can put out high dps, is great in groups, and a desired raid MT. If this were the case for any fighter class then everyone would be playing it. If you really want to put in the hours and dedication to raid MT, then levelling a guard to 70 should be trivial for you.

Tyrion

10-31-2007, 04:54 AM

<cite>Ailen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have given this quite a bit of thought. I play on Nagafen (a PvP server) and yes, we do raid at endgame, albeit we get around to it a lot later than most because we have the PvP to keep us occupied. Even then, though, it gets to us that we want to play the rest of the game too.I am the off-tank for the guild, stepping into the role as mt when the situation arises (our guardian isn't online for contesteds or whatnot) and that is my role. I am fine with that. It is the running joke in our guild that "zerkers" cant tank anything, which everyone knows is not true in that every mob in this game has been tanked by a zerker, just people teasing me.My role as off tank is to pickup adds, usually of the multimob encounter type, blow my wad of dps all over the place, and keep aggro while they get burned or the name dies. That is my job. I am good at it, and I enjoy it. a lot of times the guard just stands there, timing blocks, tower of stone, planting, it's a tedious task for sure, but grabbin adds just seems like so much more fun. Well. a Berserker is the candidate for this role. It's basically what we were made for. We lack the defensive abilities to help our healers with spike damage and other things, but we are good in a dps group with our zerk buffs and our 122 str, etc.Now, this is where it gets fuzzy. With 20 more AA points, you can spec the AGI line and get 40% of your autoattack damage to hit the encounter. Now Guardians have increased their ability to hold aoe aggro. This is where things get broken. If you can have a guard be off-tank. Why ON EARTH would you let a berserker? why? no really? dps buffs aren't something that most scouts need at end game, give em a dirge and some gear and they dont need my berserker proc. everyone has plenty of strength.So .. I am not abandoning my berserker. I am power levelling a guardian. If I can buckler spec aoe dps spec my guardian for maximum dps, and STILL KEEP MY GUARDIAN DEFESIVE abilities. Would that NOT BE BETTER than a Berserker? And then BAM, I can step into main tank role any time I'm needed. /ponder.That is why Berserkers are [Removed for Content].</blockquote>I'm sorry, almost all the scouts in my raid force use acrylia rings of strength and agility cause it's the only way to increase their haste and dps beyond the buffs they get from a group. We run two Guardians because our old OT Berserker changed to Swash, so they miss the Berserk buff greatly.There will not be a closing of the gap between DPS for either class. Both classes will take AGI or INT as I mentioned in my prior post, so both will gain in DPS, and the descrepency between the offensive warrior and defensive warrior still exist.Berserkers concerned over this are overreacting greatly to be honest, and should wait for RoK to hit before making judgements.

LygerT

10-31-2007, 05:23 AM

i think most zerks are overreacting as well, but you can't deny that we keep getting the shaft in these "evening out of the classes" stance SoE has decided to take. IMO things were fine before when we had a better buffer for DPS since we lacked the defenses.

lCUBANOl

10-31-2007, 06:01 AM

my question is...Is there even a dps gap anymore? Ive read some of Skel's parses and some of Jaraxx parses and they look the same...poor zerkers<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Cmos

10-31-2007, 08:51 AM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote> that should not be the way it is done... You should be able to say for an MT role you want a Guardian, Zerk, SK, Pally or maybe some day even a bruiser or monk (wishful thinking, but maybe one day).</blockquote>You're asking the impossible.What you're suggesting is not that all these classes be able to fill the MT role - because they already can.What you're actually asking is they all be balanced such that they are absolutely 100% equal in the role. This is ridiculous when you think about it. No matter how much classes are tweaked, there will always be one best suited to raid MTing in the eyes of the general playerbase. To me, the fact the class favored for raid MTing is the one that offers least utility and soloability makes perfect sense.It's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it - i.e. have a great solo toon that can put out high dps, is great in groups, and a desired raid MT. If this were the case for any fighter class then everyone would be playing it. If you really want to put in the hours and dedication to raid MT, then levelling a guard to 70 should be trivial for you.</blockquote>You are missing the point all together...and aren't guardians "getting thier cake and eating it too"... they have awesome tanking abilities and now dps close to zerkers... and with RoK aa points, DPS to match a zerker... in some cases potentially more... really, if you don't see the problem here you are not paying attention.

Anfauglith

10-31-2007, 11:08 AM

What you don't see kmc is that with the exact same warrior spec and exact same equipement zerkers will always have more dps than guardians...yeah both are getting a bit closer but the gap in dps was way too large at one point.Now I agree that it should not be filled, but I don't think it will with RoK (unless there's a big revamp of some skills or aas...)

Cmos

10-31-2007, 11:55 AM

<cite>Onucia@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>What you don't see kmc is that with the exact same warrior spec and exact same equipement zerkers will always have more dps than guardians...yeah both are getting a bit closer but the gap in dps was way too large at one point.Now I agree that it should not be filled, but I don't think it will with RoK (unless there's a big revamp of some skills or aas...)</blockquote>The gap WILL be filled... As someone else said earlier in this post... they have seen comparative parses between a zerk and guard... Let me see if i can expalin this as simply as possible for the crayon kids... So please try to keep up here...Without AAGuardian = DefensiveZerker= OffensiveWith AAGuardian = Defensive + Comparable OffenseZerker= OffensiveWith RoK AAGuardian = Defensive+OffensiveZerk = Offensive+ nothing even worth spending points onThe gripe zerkers have is that the guards dps is being boosted without the tanking abilities of a zerk being boosted... to keep it balanced zerkers would need a substantial boost in dps, OR a boost in tanking abilities. They are not getting either... for a zerk the additional RoK aa means very little, however for a guard it means ALOT! But w/e, no matter how much explaining I or anyone else tries to do you people just don't get it... and will continue to say there is no problem, and will continue to say that guards should be the raid MT.good luck guardians and zerkers alike...

zormik

10-31-2007, 12:06 PM

I really can't understand why you guys keep saying a berserker is way more offensive then a guardian.Look at the parses of the top berserkers and top gaurdians and compare them. I don't see guardians parsing lower then berserkers tbh...If the offense is the same for both but the defense is a huge difference why the hell have a zerker MT or OT? Just to play buffbot for scoutgroups???One thing we have over you guardians and that is spike aoe dps, that's what makes it easier for us to hold aggro on bigger encounters, on the other hand if you loose aggro to the warlock you just reinforce and you're good and dandy as well ...Now as a guard, be honest, would you want to play a beserker as it stands now? Just to be the scoutbuffer?

dr4gonUK

10-31-2007, 12:25 PM

Played a zerker to 60 from day1 on pve (deleted to make space for pvp toons). No complaints about the dps, but i was always envious how much better a mt guardian was. Which is why i play a 70 guardian on pvp. I also have an alt serker, and guard dps is nowhere near serker dps. Its a joke to even try and use that as part of an argument.As for upcoming RoK 40 aa's, wait and see imo. At least until NDA is lifted. Then this debate might have some tangible meaning.

zormik

10-31-2007, 01:07 PM

It was not my intention to flame and it if sounded like a flame i apologise. The things i said was to make clear that i do know what i'm talking about because in the better raiding guilds you clearly can see the true potential of classes. That's what i intented to say.It's just very frustrating to see that people just ignore the parses and facts of what both classes are capable off.It's been stated a few times already in this thread and people still keep ignoring it that there isn't a huge gap between zerkers and guardians anymore like it used to be.In kos i would have agreed and said yes, there is a big gap in dps between guardians and zerkers, but as it is now, it hardly exists anymore.In our guild we have a guard that is capable of dealing 2K+ zonewide himself, while the topend worldwide berserkers produce 2.2K zonewide, doesn't that say something? Since you mentioned eq2flames yourself both berserkers and guardian community have a parsethread were you can clearly see they are capable of the same dps. If you don't believe me go check it out ...And for the rest of your comment it's kinda silly tbh since you seem to ignore something and not me, but well i don't like to go in flamewars so i'll just leave it at this...

Cmos

10-31-2007, 01:10 PM

Post removed due to confusion, no hard feelings <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

ailen

10-31-2007, 02:06 PM

No in all honestly here is the root of the issue.Every class wants to do what they do better. Every class. They all have envious tendencies against other classes in their archtype, always. A guardian had suck dps before Eof, a Zerker had tons. The fact that a berserker could tank endgame content "almost as well" as a guardian [Removed for Content] a lot of guardians off. I get that. But what we have here is some serious issues with how the game was presented to us when we built our toons.I have been OK with the fact that my ability to deal with spike damage and snap aggro was diminished compared to a guardian. I was ok with that because I could put out some rockin numbers on the parse while offering buffs up to the group I was in to get a little more dps. That was great and dandy, and I spec'd buckler, and I parse pretty good. I was, and always will be envious of the guardian's ability to actually tank. I built my toon to tank, not wear plate and dps. If I wanted dps I would have just made a swashbuckler or an assassin... My guild is factional based on a PvP server. I consider this a contributing factor to why I'm unsuccessful in tanking some mobs, where a guardian stands there and does his job. I get that. We aren't the end-all of raiding guilds, just some pvp'ers that happen to be burning through end-game content. Our roster is small and built for raiding, having seen how the PvP stuff has diminished over time. With that being said, I almost never get to tank anything of any importance, except adds, or multi-mob encounters, or easy KoS garbage. I see on the horizon the gap that made us different, our DPS closing to almost nothing. nothing noteable anyways. So Guardians get to dps similarly to a berserker, which was what we were about, and they still keep all their raw tanking abilities. This is what causes the "issues"Honestly anyone that thinks 20 more aas is going to make zerker dps increase nary a little bit, is being misguided, and ignorant. AGI line offers almost nothing to us in the realm of dps, sure a little but almost nothing. INT line gives us more haste and a little better defense, but not enough to make a difference. Our EoF aas are all about debuffs, nothing about damage, and while they give us some duration upgrades to our defense buffs, our defense buffs dont need any help... we need a way to deal with spike damage.All in all, what all that crap I typed above amounts to is a berserker's difference in dps vs guardian will be almost gone. Why not just be a guardian spec'd for DPS, and still retain all the abilities to deal with spike damage and snap aggro? well? everyone is about squeezing every ounce of usefulness out of their toons in the game, wanting to be "the guy" to do what they do as best as they can. I personally won't be OK with being the 2nd rate tank with comparable DPS to the top rate tank, simply to offer my group a berserk buff and 122 str.What a joke.

zormik

10-31-2007, 03:25 PM

It's not about a point of view, it's about FACTS...You can have a difference of opinions but you can't have a difference in FACTS.Fact: optimal guard dps = optimal zerk dps AND guard's defense > zerks defense that's a problem since the zerker is supposed to be the offensive tank and the guardian the defensive one.Also if you tank with a towershield, how are you holding aggro? The raidwide dps must be very low to be able to keep aggro then.

seamus

10-31-2007, 04:29 PM

Just want to point out an observation I've had, whether or not the additional AA's will make Zerkers obsolete, SOE is definitely blurring the differences of the two warrior classes. Almost begs the question as to why both classes exist. But, imo, this game has way too many classes to begin with.

LygerT

10-31-2007, 04:38 PM

i'm surprised it wasn't mentioned about hot swapping AA lines with RoK. a guard swapping AAs to a pure DPS spec picks up the utility a zerker has and may very well outparse one now with that utility where zerks personally i wouldn't bother hot swapping AAs since there really only is 1 option for us.

ailen

10-31-2007, 05:03 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'm surprised it wasn't mentioned about hot swapping AA lines with RoK. a guard swapping AAs to a pure DPS spec picks up the utility a zerker has and may very well outparse one now with that utility where zerks personally i wouldn't bother hot swapping AAs since there really only is 1 option for us. </blockquote>DING DING DING.Here is the winner. I thought of that but kept forgetting to bring it up.

einar4

10-31-2007, 05:51 PM

Heck with what guardians can do. I played a berserker since release of EQ2, and I'll continue to do so until game mechanics or the mobs get changed such that I just can't tank any more (once I am sure it isn't from suckage and that I need to adapt). I have a guardian too, I'll learn to play him if it gets bad and use the berserker for making potions. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> I learned awhile back, when something in the game starts to be a PITA, stop doing it. As much as I love the berserker, if I find that I can't play it anymore because its a pain in the backside, then I'll drop it like a bad habit.

dr4gonUK

10-31-2007, 08:35 PM

<cite>Ailen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You say you've been tanking since '06</blockquote>Since '04*.

greyf

11-01-2007, 04:18 PM

I believe in Universal Truths... I'm not religious per se; my mythology doesn't involve old guys in beards and flowing robes or even flying bowls of pasta. But some things just ring true to my inner ear.And here is one:In MMOs... someone is always unhappy. Usually lots of someones. Balance, if not impossible, is effectively impossible since people have to believe something is balanced for the balance to matter. And human perception being what it is, we will always have to put things in an order (this is best, this is second best, etc etc). It doesn't matter if I'm only a micrometer worse than you, it still makes me the first loser. So no matter who is correct and who is incorrect (i.e. who parses what where an why, whilst still being able to laugh at the puny efforts of the mob) is really, in the end, only a matter of scale. The imbalance is inevitable.I guess I invited myself into the conversation simply because I hate to see people make themselves so unhappy over something so universally inevitable. While I know some people just like to stir the feces, I'll assume everyone here brought an honest opinion to the table. If that's so, just realize that even if the facts are in question (as of course they are), the motivation and underlying tension isn't. Most of us (and probably a VAST majority of those who haunt these class boards) spend inordinate amounts of time devoted to improving these characters. Its little wonder we get passionate about it. But given that we do this ostensibly for entertainment purposes, I think the advice about bearing imbalance until you are forced to re-roll is probably the smartest. There's little value in raving about it here. Discussion and the search for things that are truly broken is worthwhile. Getting angry is a waste of energy. Edit: HA! Feces evaded the filter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tyrion

11-01-2007, 04:40 PM

<cite>greyfin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe in Universal Truths... I'm not religious per se; my mythology doesn't involve old guys in beards and flowing robes or even flying bowls of pasta. But some things just ring true to my inner ear.And here is one:In MMOs... someone is always unhappy. Usually lots of someones. Balance, if not impossible, is effectively impossible since people have to believe something is balanced for the balance to matter. And human perception being what it is, we will always have to put things in an order (this is best, this is second best, etc etc). It doesn't matter if I'm only a micrometer worse than you, it still makes me the first loser. So no matter who is correct and who is incorrect (i.e. who parses what where an why, whilst still being able to laugh at the puny efforts of the mob) is really, in the end, only a matter of scale. The imbalance is inevitable.I guess I invited myself into the conversation simply because I hate to see people make themselves so unhappy over something so universally inevitable. While I know some people just like to stir the feces, I'll assume everyone here brought an honest opinion to the table. If that's so, just realize that even if the facts are in question (as of course they are), the motivation and underlying tension isn't. Most of us (and probably a VAST majority of those who haunt these class boards) spend inordinate amounts of time devoted to improving these characters. Its little wonder we get passionate about it. But given that we do this ostensibly for entertainment purposes, I think the advice about bearing imbalance until you are forced to re-roll is probably the smartest. There's little value in raving about it here. Discussion and the search for things that are truly broken is worthwhile. Getting angry is a waste of energy. Edit: HA! Feces evaded the filter <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> </blockquote>We're all pastafarians in our own way.What confuses me is that you guys in this thread are concerned over the AGI line usurping Berserker AoE damage? Why are you only complaining about this now? Both warrior classes have had this ability forever (even when they boosted Cyclone), and only now you're stirring the feces with 20 more AAs? I don't need 20 more AAs to get AGI, I already have it. A lot of Guardians already roll Str/Agi/Sta because holding single target aggro is stupidly easy, and so for the third time, it's nothing new to us. I know Acceleration Strike is powerful, but with Ritual of Alacrity and all the MT group bonuses (3-set COB anyone), it's not terribly useful. Hitting 4 targets in front of me 40% of the time is MUCH more useful, and I've taken advantage of it after I realized it rocked. I understand the niche Berserkers fill is being questioned, and in turn you wonder about boosted damage or better survivability, but trust me when I say wait for RoK before you further this storm. But I'm just repeating what I've said for ages, so I won't bother anymore.WAIT FOR ROK, then pass judgement.

LygerT

11-01-2007, 05:41 PM

zerkers ignored the uselessness of the agility line simply because we didn't use it, and even now it was only brought up by the guardians not us as we would continue to avoid that line. it is a good point about being devoted to your class and it is probably why i am vocal when i am seeing my class neglected in the changes made since they are intent on balancing the classes, which will only make more people unhappy where before they would have only had a % of people unhappy and those people could have just rerolled when mirrored classes were still mirrored.

greyf

11-01-2007, 06:40 PM

Actually, I DO understand where the conundrum is for Berserkers, I just don't see how the sniping is constructive (earlier in the thread... not recently). Its a lack of headroom in the main strategies for growing Zerker AAs. In other words, given the prevailing wisdom of what improves Berserkers in the role they have eked out, they see a "competitor" gaining more from this 20pt windfall than they will.Now, I know very little about either class... I've got a 36 Berserker and a 31 Guardian, this is why I didn't mention any opinion about the "facts" of the argument. I really have nothing to contribute to that. But I USED to be a warrior in EQ1, and every expansion a very similar drama would play out between the Warriors and the Knights. Usually the big arguments were related to Defensive and various mitigation issues. The knights wanted to MT and Warriors were always ever so far ahead. And there was merit to their concerns. Rangers vs. Rogues (or rouges in 90% of all posts I ever saw... why is it so hard to spell Rogue?). Clerics vs. every other healing class, etc etc etc. This was my point... its the never ending conflict that will always exist.So anyone... to the comment that nobody listens, I was listening. I might have even understood a good portion. I'm definitely sympathetic. But the anger I see in these sorts of threads is passion that could be better spent in other endeavors. This is my opinion only of course.

LygerT

11-01-2007, 10:35 PM

eh, i like tanking but i know Guardians are better suited to main tank raids. i always prefferred to offtank and DPS, it is my role, a role i feel is being infringed upon by the other side of my class that is better suited to taking the damage than dishing it out.

Bravesinger

11-02-2007, 04:45 AM

I have been a MT in a hardcore raiding guild both as a zerker and as a guardian. I played a berserker in DoF and KoS, and the guild I am in still managed to be in the top 10 WW on clearing stuff. I loved that class. I could solo everything. The only time I ever lost a duel (I have done over 200 with all/almost all classes) was because I was KBed over the edge on an island in KoS. So berserkers rule when it comes to soloing and as tanks in groups. There is no doubt I will always prefer a berserker as MT in groups, because they don't rely on buffs from other people to keep aggro. Berserkers whined constantly when they saw some of their AAs/setitems berserkers got with EoF...More HP-regen...OMG, you get even better at soloing, whereas guardians AAs made them better as MTs in raids. And with the berserk-skill, you can have very high dps and haste, so soloing is a piece of cake for berserkers. Try soloing a heroic blue mob as a guardian. I think there is a 50/50 chance of killing it. A berserker will suck if they can't kill it with 50% hp left. But I guess berserkers want to be as good a raid MT as guardians, and be superior in soloing and group-tanking.I know some of you will ask why I swapped from a berserker to a guardian (back in the days when 9 out of 10 betrayals where from guard to zerker). I did that because I only played as a MT in raids. I didn't solo and I didn't group instances for fun. So why shouldn't I be a guardian, because trust me, the only place a guardian is better than a berserker is when it comes to MTing in raids. So to all you berserkers. STOP WHINING. YOU CAN'T BE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING!!!

zormik

11-02-2007, 09:13 AM

Plz re-enlighten me why we are so much better then guards to solo? Back in the days we were yes. But plz try to understand a lot has changed since the time you betrayed.Since eof zerks only have been toned down a LOT. Soloing is about dps, and our dps is the same now, plus guardians have more survivability. So why does that make us the better solo-ers and groupers?The only thing we have is a bit more spikedps every 3 minutes that makes it a tad easier on groups, that's all we have over guardians atm.Really, i know a berserker was a god in kos and he was at that time a bit overpowered. But since then it completely turned around, so you shouldn't compare anymore with your berserker in kos-times.Those days are long gone already.

Terron

11-02-2007, 11:12 AM

<cite>Bravesinger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Try soloing a heroic blue mob as a guardian. I think there is a 50/50 chance of killing it.</blockquote>Last time I founght a level 63^^^ heroic mob with my 70 guard I had no chance to kill it.

Rob626

11-02-2007, 03:52 PM

Zerks say that if the two warrior archetypes are supposed to be equal, then why are Guards chosen so freqently to MT? Let's reverse that. How often as a Guardian do you feel restricted to only the MT role of a raid? What happens if a guardian wants to OT instead? Why should Zerks get an edge for all of the various tank jobs available (instance tank, pvp, raid MT, raid OT, solo) while Guardians are limited to an edge in only one role? Try to solo a guard to 70. I did. It was ugly. So after the pain I went through I think I DESERVE to do any darn tank job I want, thank you very much. I have put in the pain and now I am getting my reward. Rub some dirt on it, Nancy, and soldier on. Zerks have had it so good for so long. Both survival and dps while the Guards have had only a marginal edge in survival. About time people started giving the Guardian some lubbins. Majo, 70 Guardian of Venekor

Cmos

11-02-2007, 06:14 PM

<cite>Rob626 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerks say that if the two warrior archetypes are supposed to be equal, then why are Guards chosen so freqently to MT?First off it's not about being equal it's about being balanced. NO they are not the same thing.Let's reverse that. How often as a Guardian do you feel restricted to only the MT role of a raid? What happens if a guardian wants to OT instead? Why should Zerks get an edge for all of the various tank jobs available (instance tank, pvp, raid MT, raid OT, solo) while Guardians are limited to an edge in only one role?Which is why guards are getting the boost they are getting and have recieved the boosts they already have... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Try to solo a guard to 70. I did. It was ugly. So after the pain I went through I think I DESERVE to do any darn tank job I want, thank you very much. I have put in the pain and now I am getting my reward.It has nothing to do with what anyone deserves or earned, it has everything to do with balance, you are just being selfish.Rub some dirt on it, Nancy, and soldier on. Zerks have had it so good for so long. Both survival and dps while the Guards have had only a marginal edge in survival. About time people started giving the Guardian some lubbins.You are are not stating facts... a marginal edge? zerks have had it good?... you must be playing a different game then everyone else, is there an emulator out there or somethin ??</blockquote>

EDofEDs

11-02-2007, 07:56 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>troll much?1) not a single person has bashed guards in this threadYour in teh guard's home turf, what did you expect?2) the fact you pointed out priest EoF AAs shows me you have no clue about anything on this subject, every class has crappy EoF trees.My point is that we all have crappy AAs, some of which are truly trash. Some even have crap in the main KoS tree. But everything warriors get in their KoS tree is pretty nice.</blockquote>So you have to "suffer" being slightly worse then your sister class, your still going to be strong. Quit coming into the guards forums and [Removed for Content] in their cornflakes because you wanna be the best at everything. Also why are so many of you basing this "huge" disadvantage solely on the fact that guards are the premiere raid tank and zerks aren't. Talked to a brawler lately? They can't get a raid for anything but you don't see them coming in here and [Removed for Content] and moaning about how they wanna raid tank and DPS and group tank and small group tank better then anyone. What next you guys gonna hit up the mage forums and yell at wizards about how you should be the best nukers too?Seriously you guys raving about this "huge" disparity need to chill. there are definatly more broken things in the game then what you believe balance is. Now if you guys had piles of broken CAs/abilities or things that we can equip but you can't then yeah by all means I'm with ya there. But getting this worked up over the differences in your class and another when combined with AAs is a bit overboard.

Talathion

11-02-2007, 08:03 PM

I think the 2 best guilds in the game use a Monk/Bruiser/Guard/Berserker in there raids.The last 2 GU's Have Increased Brawler's Overall Damage Endgame By Outstanding Results. Tier 1 DPS.

Jvaloth

11-02-2007, 08:42 PM

These "facts" you keep touting are YOUR facts as YOU perceive them. Zerkers regularly outparse guardians in virtually every situation. Zerkers do solo better because they have more DPS, health regen etc. Zerkers are much better group tanks because they annihilate heroic content, zerkers are excellent off tanks and zerker DPS actually goes up when they are MTing.If you are getting outparsed by a guardian regularly, you need to look into what YOU are doing wrong as a zerker and make some adjustments.

LygerT

11-03-2007, 03:50 AM

i have no problem bringing a monk/bruiser with us on our raids, they benefit the whole group/raid with their buffs.

Daalilama

11-03-2007, 11:40 AM

Well here goes my 2 copper on this thread....I do agree with the wait and see approach regarding ROK....never know soe (well we can dream) might very well give some improvements to the eof lines for zerkers or god forbid actually rework their warrior lines giving them something then can use...never now.In my guild both MT and OT (myself mostly) are guardians...and yes the zerkers are placed accordingly as the raid force dictates...both guards and zerkers are the best tanks in the game in my opin...but they are diffrent breeds as it were...zerkers being the king of puting out dps and guards being the king at taking a beating....with the proposed new aa's being offered those line may become more fuzzy as it were but there will always be diffrences...Why certain zerkers and guards need to talk smack and say "my class is better than you class" is quite childish.As for the parse, quite frankly I could giv 2 (curse word) bout it...my job as MT or OT is not to make the parse...if I do all the better...my job is to hold the mobs any way I can so that the raid as a whole can take them down...period...if your only looking to make the parse list...and get upset you dont...might consider it time to roll a mage.I am done...Feel free to throw insults back and forth bout whos class is better .

Dragonlancer

11-03-2007, 12:27 PM

We use Guardian/Guardian/Zerker/Monk for our tank setup.

LygerT

11-03-2007, 01:07 PM

zerkers need to be high up the parse to maintain aggro, most guardians never really realize it unless they have played the class.

Daalilama

11-03-2007, 02:04 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>zerkers need to be high up the parse to maintain aggro, most guardians never really realize it unless they have played the class. </blockquote>I have and am fully aware but as I said if all you want to be is a parse [Removed for Content] concerned with only that and not the success of the raid as a whole you have a few options....1) change to a high dps class so you are bound to be on the parse, 2) get used to being a bench warmer as you will be left out of raids till you understand this, 3) come to realize that regardless if you make the parse or not you job is to hold the mob...its that simple.

aias

11-03-2007, 03:24 PM

With the incoming additional achievement points you basically CAN have the best of both worlds. Betray to a Guardian in RoK. Just as good dps with better hate CA's for aggro control and better survivability. I think the berserkers posting here are probably considering the move. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Jvaloth

11-03-2007, 10:14 PM

Make the move sure, but I guarantee you won't be parsing higher than zerkers.I made the move from a fully fabled level 70 Zerker MT to a fully fabled level 70 Guardian and my DPS went down big time. Occasionally I look at the parses of my Zerker guildy and I regret the switch. But I am happy with some of the agro tools Guardians have and have grown accustomed to my new surroundings.I think the zerkers are completely over reacting and blowing this whole situation out of proportion. They've been the kings of the world since level 50, filling the role of both MT and OT just fine at the highest levels. They can fill the role of an all out durable DPS machine in a scout group without tanking a single mob and no one would complain either. Zerkers have it awesome if you ask me.Its the SK's, Monks, and Bruisers that should be complaining. Certainly not the Zerker.

aias

11-04-2007, 03:04 PM

The biggest problem is the berserker EoF tree, it's one of the worst trees. It just need to be re-vamped completely. There have been many posts about it and suggestions by players as to how to improve it. With the additonal RoK achievement points the deficiencies of the EoF tree become more amplified. Just hope some dev listens.This discussion may be moot since we don't know what awaits us in RoK. However, we do know there will be additional achievement points for our trees and we can all determine how we will be spending those points now. That is probably the biggest reason many will betray to guard in RoK. Guards will be more "berserker-like", while berserkers won't have the option to be more "guardian-like". It's not a guard vs. berserker thing, nor my dps > your dps. We all want to play this game and have a role in a raid = fun.

ZerkerDwarf

11-04-2007, 03:59 PM

A raidforce's choice when it is about survivability? Guardian!A raidforce's choice when it is about holding 100% aggro? Paladin!A raidforce's choice when it is about regaining aggro? Guardian!A raidforce's choice when it is about melee dps? Bruiser. At least certainly not a berserker!A raidforce's choice when it is about other support? Certainly not a berserker!Want to hear a good joke? OK: "Berserker lvl 70, 100aa, all masters, looking for EoF raidcom". You could also speak to a wall instead. Has the same effect. To find a raidforce as a berserker you need to have met the right people at the right time. No chance otherwise.I wonder if anyone at SOE is playing a berserker :-/

LygerT

11-04-2007, 05:06 PM

EDofEDs

11-05-2007, 02:25 AM

<cite>ZerkerDwarf wrote:</cite><blockquote>A raidforce's choice when it is about survivability? Guardian!A raidforce's choice when it is about holding 100% aggro? Paladin!A raidforce's choice when it is about regaining aggro? Guardian!A raidforce's choice when it is about melee dps? Bruiser. At least certainly not a berserker!A raidforce's choice when it is about other support? Certainly not a berserker!Want to hear a good joke? OK: "Berserker lvl 70, 100aa, all masters, looking for EoF raidcom". You could also speak to a wall instead. Has the same effect. To find a raidforce as a berserker you need to have met the right people at the right time. No chance otherwise.I wonder if anyone at SOE is playing a berserker :-/</blockquote>For one thing you left out OT. Also if you are meaning to put fighters in some of the positions you listed its a little off too. For instance DPS. Why would they pick a bruiser over a real DPS class? Or why not a priest or bard for support?Now you could be saying it as a Support OT and DPS OT but then the 100% agro one doesn't make allot of sense.Overall Zerks are fantastic dungeon tanks for single groups and no one can argue that. Soem would argue better ten guards even. So posting something along the lines of "my class is broken" is a total exaggeration. Will zerkers gain as much from the extra AAs as guards? Probably not.Will they gain anything from the extra AAs? Of course they will.Will it be perfectly balanced compared to guards? No, perfect balance is totally impossible. The balance achieved now is pretty close though and we can't really comment on how it will be post extra AAs until after new equipment and raid scripts etc have been experienced.

knightofround

11-05-2007, 04:36 AM

Dominik,A raidforce's desire for an OT is going to depend upon one of the qualifications that ZerkerDwarf listed. And, as you notice, Zerker isn't anywhere on the list. Guard pops up twice. Why would they pick a bruiser over a real DPS class? Or why not a priest or bard for support?Because there's much less competition for leather armor over plate. Because a brawler can fill any role that calls for multitanking, whereas bards and priests cannot. Because the true challenge in OTing is making sure you have snap aggro. This is irrelevent anyway. Instead of saying why would they pick a bruiser over a real dps class, you could say the same thing about the zerker.BTW my vote for support tanks are Monks. That raid haste/spellhaste buff is sexy, not to mention they get a raidwide aggro xfer.Unless you really, really, want that zerker incombat regen. Oh yeah ladies, keep your hands off.

TuinalOfTheNexus

11-05-2007, 07:59 AM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make the move sure, but I guarantee you won't be parsing higher than zerkers.I made the move from a fully fabled level 70 Zerker MT to a fully fabled level 70 Guardian and my DPS went down big time. Occasionally I look at the parses of my Zerker guildy and I regret the switch. But I am happy with some of the agro tools Guardians have and have grown accustomed to my new surroundings.I think the zerkers are completely over reacting and blowing this whole situation out of proportion. They've been the kings of the world since level 50, filling the role of both MT and OT just fine at the highest levels. They can fill the role of an all out durable DPS machine in a scout group without tanking a single mob and no one would complain either. Zerkers have it awesome if you ask me.Its the SK's, Monks, and Bruisers that should be complaining. Certainly not the Zerker.</blockquote>Amen to this.Zerks are talking like 40% AE autoattack (a line many Guards currently take anyway, and one open to the Zerker class) is gonna result in Guards getting the same ZW DPS.Juggernaut is a huge ability when you have end-game gear the benefits from crits. Open Wounds similarly is extremely powerful. Then there are things like Berserk and damage procs that add a substantial amount of DPS.Any Berserker betraying under the assumption their zonewide DPS isn't gonna take a substantial hit is kidding themselves. As is any Berserker who thinks Tower of Stone and Stone Sphere are going to make them invincible. That said, if you're a raid MT, you should have been a Guard in the first place rather than playing the 2nd best class for the job to prove a point / parse high / slack with aggro (and believe me you have to work a [Removed for Content] sight harder to hold aggro on 4+ mobs as a Guard, reinforcement isn't a silver bullet), so betraying is probably smart.

Raahl

11-05-2007, 11:12 AM

I am by no means an expert on the zerker class. But the extra 40 AA points will help both the zerker and the guardian classes.We all share the same base trees (Str, Agi, Sta, Wis, Int). So those extra 20 points are a wash. And unless they have changed the Guardian AA line, I fail to see how having 20 more AA points will make us any more powerful than our zerker friends. Perhaps there are a few that have a greater RoK knowledge where the guardian class is getting some sort of huge increase in offensive or defensive capabilities. I guess I will just have to wait and see. But guardians took a big hit around LU16 and for a very long time were very unhappy with our class. A little love from Sony will be very welcome for this guardian. Starting a class war never gets either class what they want. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't start one now. I'm sure if Sony makes Guardians overpowered they will not hessitate to swing the nerf bat again. I'm sure our zerker friends don't want to be the cause of another class getting nerfed, or do they?

Amalthea

11-05-2007, 12:13 PM

I've just done some major culling in this thread; there have been far too many insults thrown around.If you guys can't remain civil, I'm afraid I'll have to lock it. It is possible to have a productive discussion -- even a productive debate -- without crossing the line and getting personal.Thanks in advance for keeping the rest of the conversation insult-free...

Talathion

11-05-2007, 12:34 PM

<cite>Amalthea wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've just done some major culling in this thread; there have been far too many insults thrown around.If you guys can't remain civil, I'm afraid I'll have to lock it. It is possible to have a productive discussion -- even a productive debate -- without crossing the line and getting personal.Thanks in advance for keeping the rest of the conversation insult-free...</blockquote>To many insults for a reason. you need to send some of these threads to the developers and have them look at the reason Berserkers Need a Fix, because guardians are going to get our class defining skill, and our ZW DPS unless you (As a Moderator) do something to tell them whats going on, or threads like these may appear all over after RoK.It's not your fault these threads start, but please do a little more then mute it, submit some of them.

DasanW

11-05-2007, 12:38 PM

Just an observation, and from a Zerkers point of view...Warrior AA's:AGI line, competes with our main AoE CA ability, Open Wounds to Dragoons Cyclone,.. and the INT line competes with our Berserker proc, marginalizing or even cancelling its effects (Haste cap). So, in other words, the AA's in the warrior tree compete or even cancel some of our abilities because they are damage, where the defensive CA's of a Guardian are not.EoF AA's:Again, the abilities in the EoF tree compete, cancel or are negative effects of the Berserker abilities. Insta Berserk that is lower than our procs and over-writes it, along with any other haste/DPS buff. Increase taunts resistibility by 10% is nice, but the added radius cancels the ability to use our most useful taunt, Insolent Gibe. Gut Roar and Perseverance are not even viable abilities. What does the Guardian gain? Damage with double attack, Got Your Back a useful ability, Cripple which reduces damage taken and Block, again a viable ability.Does all this mean that Guardians will approach Berserkers in ZW DPS? No, but it will bring the numbers closer. What will the Berserker gain from the defensive side? A whole lot of nothing beneficial for the most part, hence this is the crux of the argument that is being discounted by a lot of Guardians. Our class abilities are being shifted to the Guardian class, while there is nothing being given back. Will this make the class unplayable? Not at all. What it will do is to solidify Guardians at the top of the tank list, which it, at least in my opinion, should not be the only option.

Echgar

11-05-2007, 01:10 PM

<cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>To many insults for a reason.</blockquote>Unfortunately, the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">forum rules</a> do not have a section that talks about it being ok to attack, insult, and namecall each other given a good, bad, or any other reason.I understand some of you are frustrated, but as Amalthea mentioned, please keep the insulting and other bad behavior out of it. You are welcome to disagree with each other, but please keep your comments constructive and respectful.

Raahl

11-05-2007, 01:10 PM

Dasan, What zerker class ability is being shifted to the guardians? If you are talking about the auto attack AE ability in the AGI line, both classes have had that for some time now. If a zerker is worried about a guardian moving in on their territory, you can simply take the same skill as a zerker. What defensive abilities are you talking about? In the end anything that buffs Mit is a joke because of diminishing returns and from what I understand avoidance is not that effective against Epic mobs (correct me if I am wrong).ToS is usable once a combat and damages our shield. Basically making us pay gold to enhance our defense. Plus with the recent nerf to ToS it's not as effective as it use to be. With many Guardian's going STA spec, we use this less and less.Reinforcement is one of the only way's that Guardians can really hope to compete against Zerkers for Group aggro and that is on a 2-3 minute timer and last for around 15 seconds.Are Guardians that much better defense wise than a Zerker? IMO I don't believe we are. The main factors in defense are Mit and Avoidance, which both classes are really close to each other on. Because of the nature of our hate CA we need to be hit more often to gain hate, plus it cost us power each time it kicks off.Are Zerkers that much better offense wise than a Guardian? I tend to believe Zerkers are better but I'll admit I don't know for sure. Doesn't the zerker hate CA involve them having a chance of getting extra hate each time they hit something, or am I thinking of another class?Don't Zerkers have some sort of group healing proc? Not sure how effective it is, but it's still a nice skill to have.In the end we will see how these changes affect each class.

aias

11-05-2007, 01:18 PM

If it's any indication, one of the top WW berserkers and knowledgable players, Skel, has betrayed to Guardian. I don't mean to "out" you Skel. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Hopefully, he can give us his reasons and conclusions as to his decision.

Amalthea

11-05-2007, 01:20 PM

<cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>To many insults for a reason. you need to send some of these threads to the developers and have them look at the reason Berserkers Need a Fix, because guardians are going to get our class defining skill, and our ZW DPS unless you (As a Moderator) do something to tell them whats going on, or threads like these may appear all over after RoK.It's not your fault these threads start, but please do a little more then mute it, submit some of them.</blockquote>I have the same direct line to the devs that you do...that is to say, none. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you feel as though you have a legitimate complaint about game mechanics, the best way to make sure the devs see it is to use the /feedback tool in-game. There is no guarantee that any dev will even see a thread posted on the forums, much less act on it. All /feedbacks go straight to the devs for review.

Raahl

11-05-2007, 01:25 PM

Perhaps he want's to MT raids? I'm not sure how we can change the false perception that Guardians are the must have MT for raids. IMO Zerkers and even SK's make good MT's. Now not to insult the other tank classes (Monk, Bruiser, Paladin), I just don't see them being MT for raids. Though I could be wrong on the Paladins.

aias

11-05-2007, 01:38 PM

Skel, has been MT for Aftermath as a Berserker and not too shabby from what I understand. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Jvaloth

11-05-2007, 01:46 PM

<cite>Dasan@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an observation, and from a Zerkers point of view...Warrior AA's:AGI line, competes with our main AoE CA ability, Open Wounds to Dragoons Cyclone,.. and the INT line competes with our Berserker proc, marginalizing or even cancelling its effects (Haste cap). So, in other words, the AA's in the warrior tree compete or even cancel some of our abilities because they are damage, where the defensive CA's of a Guardian are not.As a guardian I've been spec'd with this forever. 40% auto attack multiple mobs is a must for me as a guardian for AE agro management. I have zero problem holding agro on multiple mob encounters. I also took it because of the extra AE thats pretty fast casting which I use in conjunction with Reinforcement. And then the end line Dragoons Reflexes. Beserkers can take this line and get all the benefits... yet another AE that does dmg, hitting multiple targets w/ their O stance proc + etcetc. I'm surprised more zerkers don't see the value of the agi line.EoF AA's:Again, the abilities in the EoF tree compete, cancel or are negative effects of the Berserker abilities. Insta Berserk that is lower than our procs and over-writes it, along with any other haste/DPS buff. Increase taunts resistibility by 10% is nice, but the added radius cancels the ability to use our most useful taunt, Insolent Gibe. Gut Roar and Perseverance are not even viable abilities. What does the Guardian gain? Damage with double attack, Got Your Back a useful ability, Cripple which reduces damage taken and Block, again a viable ability.Right around the time I made the switch from zerker to guardian I was definately extremely disappointed in the Zerker EoF AA lines. They really did dumb down these AA's. I was also extremely [Removed for Content] off about the Assassin AA lines. The reason they gave both Zerkers and Assassin's crappy EoF AA is because both classes are absolute beasts in KoS. I agree that they probably should re-evaluate some of the EoF zerker and some of the other classes aswell considering they were originally developed with 25 AA max being spent in each tree. But bare in mind that initial use of "Got your back" was very disappointing and i think alot of Guards that tried it spec'd out of it. Block stops one attack from hitting which is barely noticeable, especially for an end line ability. Cripple will be an awesome ability to have with the extra AA points and I'm pretty sure most guards did get the 10% double attack AA line.</blockquote>

Raahl

11-05-2007, 01:46 PM

zormik

11-05-2007, 01:46 PM

<cite>Pandarus@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Skel, has been MT for Aftermath as a Berserker and not too shabby from what I understand. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Aye, he's always been out for defending the berserkers class as prolly the most skilled zerker and also most vocal zerker.If he betrays that means a LOT cause it's a decisions he would never take lightly imo.Says something about the state zerkers are in atm...

Bremer

11-05-2007, 02:10 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Doesn't the zerker hate CA involve them having a chance of getting extra hate each time they hit something, or am I thinking of another class?Don't Zerkers have some sort of group healing proc? Not sure how effective it is, but it's still a nice skill to have.</blockquote>Nope

DasanW

11-05-2007, 02:37 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dasan, What zerker class ability is being shifted to the guardians? If you are talking about the auto attack AE ability in the AGI line, both classes have had that for some time now. If a zerker is worried about a guardian moving in on their territory, you can simply take the same skill as a zerker. Granted, both have had the ability to go down this line, however zerkers have this ability already. What I am pointing out is what ability in the warrior tree that doubles up from the Guardians CA's, that the zerker can now get?What defensive abilities are you talking about? In the end anything that buffs Mit is a joke because of diminishing returns and from what I understand avoidance is not that effective against Epic mobs (correct me if I am wrong).Anything is something... Guards have a mit buff, Guards have better/more taunts and buffs than zerkers, which is what SOE has defined, and we are good with this, but if guards can take advantage of the AGI/STR/STA/INT line the DPS increase is big, whereas the addition to the zerker is "overwriting" our main ability.ToS is usable once a combat and damages our shield. Basically making us pay gold to enhance our defense. Plus with the recent nerf to ToS it's not as effective as it use to be. With many Guardian's going STA spec, we use this less and less.You may have questions or problems with how the mechanics of how something works, but you have it, we do not. And paying gold to enhance your defense? Not a vaild point since many classes can and have to pay to enhance mechanics (poisions come to mind first)Reinforcement is one of the only way's that Guardians can really hope to compete against Zerkers for Group aggro and that is on a 2-3 minute timer and last for around 15 seconds.One of the only.. meaning there more. Guardians have the best 'snap' agro, zerkers dont. Are Guardians that much better defense wise than a Zerker? IMO I don't believe we are. The main factors in defense are Mit and Avoidance, which both classes are really close to each other on. Because of the nature of our hate CA we need to be hit more often to gain hate, plus it cost us power each time it kicks off.This is where I think we do have a big difference.. and its just my opinion. I have not raided EH/MMIS, so that I have no direct knowledge of, however I have seen the how Guardians have better defense.... thats plain and simple to me.Are Zerkers that much better offense wise than a Guardian? I tend to believe Zerkers are better but I'll admit I don't know for sure. Doesn't the zerker hate CA involve them having a chance of getting extra hate each time they hit something, or am I thinking of another class?Nope, not ZerkersDon't Zerkers have some sort of group healing proc? Not sure how effective it is, but it's still a nice skill to have.Not that I have ever heard of.. we get the lovely 89 HP incombat regen /boggleIn the end we will see how these changes affect each class. </blockquote>

Raahl

11-05-2007, 02:43 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Doesn't the zerker hate CA involve them having a chance of getting extra hate each time they hit something, or am I thinking of another class?Don't Zerkers have some sort of group healing proc? Not sure how effective it is, but it's still a nice skill to have.</blockquote>Nope</blockquote>Ah here's what I was thinking of. Not quite what I thought they were. Is Blood Craze any good? Taunting Defense is probably the same as the guardian equivalent just without the counter attack.63 Blood Craze - Every time the berserker receives damage in melee combat, the berserker begins regenerating health slowly while in combat.57 Taunting Defense - Grants a chance to counter attack with increased hate towards any opponent that damages the berserker in melee.

Raahl

11-05-2007, 03:07 PM

Thanks Dasan. I finally understand why zerkers think the AGI auto attack AE is fairly useless. Been chatting in the zerker forums.Is that health regen the Blood Craze or is it Destructive Rage? Still 89 health helps a little. Though with mobs hitting for 4-5k, I can see it being pretty much a drop in the bucket.Do Zerkers have to pay gold for any ability? As far as taunts how many abilities increase hate for zerkers?Guardians have 1 single target taunt, 1 group taunt, 1 single target attack with hate, 1 group attack with hate, Rescue, reinforcement, buff that when hit that can proc hate. I don't think I missed anything. So 7 abilities that deal with hate. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But aren't zerkers generally self hasted higher than a guardian can be? If so, doesn't more haste equate to more DPS and in turn more hate? Yea there are caps, but I am talking in general without the temporary Dirge buffs.I have never seen a Zerker have problems with hate or DPS, at least one who knows what he's doing. Even with any changes coming with RoK, I still expect that Zerkers will be above Guardians as far as DPS goes.If you are worried about the extra DPS that guardians may get, should the guardians worry about any extra mit/defense that Zerkers can get from taking points in AGI/WIS/INT?

Bremer

11-05-2007, 03:15 PM

Blood Craze is awesome +60 hpregen if you are hit, TD has the same hate like the Guard Proc + some damage, but with only 20 % proc chance.

Raahl

11-05-2007, 03:19 PM

Anyway, I don't see the 20 AA causing a shift between the classes. IMO Zerkers will still do more damage than Guardians will. Zerkers may increase their defense a little by taking a line that increases mit/def/parry. So guardians may get a little closer to zerker offense and zerkers may get a little closer to guardians in defense.I guess we will see what happens with the new expansion. I'd like to see parses from both sides of the fence.

Raahl

11-05-2007, 03:25 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blood Craze is awesome +60 hpregen if you are hit, TD has the same hate like the Guard Proc + some damage, but with only 20 % proc chance.</blockquote>Ok so Blood Craze is a bit weak. At most you are looking at 150 hp regen if you are hit, 89 if not hit.Is TD the only hate proc you guys get? 20% is pretty low, does it cost power when it procs and does it have a chance to proc if the mob misses you? The guardian one is 50% I believe, and it takes power each time it procs and only procs when we are hit.I have not problems with the Zerkers getting some Love from Sony. Just don't call for nerfs of another class. Perhaps your hp regen needs buffed up.

aias

11-05-2007, 03:42 PM

Don't think anyone is calling for nerfs to guards. Guards seem to be where they should be. Which is great. Your class brothers need some <3 from SOE. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Jvaloth

11-05-2007, 03:44 PM

<cite>Dasan@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dasan, What zerker class ability is being shifted to the guardians? If you are talking about the auto attack AE ability in the AGI line, both classes have had that for some time now. If a zerker is worried about a guardian moving in on their territory, you can simply take the same skill as a zerker. Granted, both have had the ability to go down this line, however zerkers have this ability already. What I am pointing out is what ability in the warrior tree that doubles up from the Guardians CA's, that the zerker can now get?How do you figure Zerkers have the ability already? They have a short buff that refreshes every 3 mins that allows you to hit multiple mobs infront of you and your O stance. The Agi line Cyclone is another constant 40% chance to hit up to 4 frontal targets. It would be in addition to, not an overwrite of your ability. Increasing your chances to hit multiple mobs, does it not?What defensive abilities are you talking about? In the end anything that buffs Mit is a joke because of diminishing returns and from what I understand avoidance is not that effective against Epic mobs (correct me if I am wrong).Anything is something... Guards have a mit buff, Guards have better/more taunts and buffs than zerkers, which is what SOE has defined, and we are good with this, but if guards can take advantage of the AGI/STR/STA/INT line the DPS increase is big, whereas the addition to the zerker is "overwriting" our main ability.Again you mention overwriting of abilities. Of the AGI/STR/STA/INT lines, only the Agi Cyclone ability could be perceived as overwriting but its simply stacking with your abilities. All of these other lines in KoS that you will have points to spend on will increase your DPS and your avoidance (Defense from Agi, Parry from Int). You'll still have all of the bells and whistles of a zerker DPS wise but you'll also have the extra points to up your avoidance and defensive capabilities. Zerkers have a temp mit buff which is the same as Guardians called Mayhem. Guardians have the same mit buff called Command.Guards and Zerkers both have a single target taunt (Confront/Outrage). Both have a dmg CA w/ threat increase called (Violent Pledge/Vindictive Strike) and an AE taunt that can be used while stifled or stunned (Protection/Berate) Zerkers have an AE stun w/ dmg (Stunning Howl) which Guardians do not have. Instead Guardians get Goading Assault (An extremely slow casting AE that taunts for 300 threat) Zerkers have 2 other dmg CA's that are AE based (Bloodbath/Beserker Onslaught) and Guardians only have 1 AE (Besiege). Most of the other damage CA's share simular statistics/power costs/dmg ranges but debuff different things. Stances: ZerkerOstance - Unrestrained Fury Increases the berserker's offensive melee skills and grants a chance to attack all nearby enemies in an encounter with each melee attack, but at the cost of decreased defense skill. Offensive proc stance.Dstance - Couragous Will - Greatly increases defense, parry, physical (crush) and cold damage mitigation at the cost of offensive melee skills and combat attack damage.GuardianOstance - Increases the guardian's offensive melee skills (Crush/slash/pierce and + 145 strength, at the cost of decreased defense and parry skill.Dstance - Greatly increases defense, parry, physical (slash/pierce) and heat damage mitigation at the cost of offensive melee skills and combat attack damage.Buffs:Guardian: Return to War: Adds 600+ HP to groupCall to Siege: Adds +23 slash/crush/pierceCall of Armament : +23 defense to groupFortified Conviction : +58 to +66 StaminaZerker:Combative Rage: Increases health regen of groupWar Cry : Group beserk buffRoar: Increases group's STRGuardians have Inflaming defense (50% chance to proc 500 threat when hit)Zerkers have Taunting Defense which grants a chance to counter attack with increased hate towards any opponent that damages the berserker in melee. Zerkers also have Weapon Aegis which riposts 3 attacks on the mob doing both DPS and generating agro in the process.When I switched from Zerker to Guardian I raided that night and my hotbars were set up almost identically. The only things that help Guardians take a beating over a zerker would be Tower of Stone which annhilates a shield and is used situationaly at best. The self buffed defense is only a marginal increase in avoidance and most tanks can get to that soft cap pretty easily. Agro generation Guardians get Reinforcement which is pretty nice. But Zerkers get Insolent Gibe which is pretty solid in its own right (tho definately not as good as Reinforcement imho). Add in Rampage, Open Wounds and Juggernaught as DPS abilities Guardians do not have.So Guardians have a couple buffs that assist in their tanking (higher melee skills, 20+ defense, more base hitpoints), Zerkers have alot more tools for generating consistant DPS and AE agro. Beserking, superior O stance, identical D stance, health regen over time adds up, etc etc. I just dont think the disparity between the classes is bleak as some of the zerkers seem to perceive it.ToS is usable once a combat and damages our shield. Basically making us pay gold to enhance our defense. Plus with the recent nerf to ToS it's not as effective as it use to be. With many Guardian's going STA spec, we use this less and less.You may have questions or problems with how the mechanics of how something works, but you have it, we do not. And paying gold to enhance your defense? Not a vaild point since many classes can and have to pay to enhance mechanics (poisions come to mind first)ToS is over rated. I use it rarely, only when/if I'm redlining AND Dragoon's Reflexes is not up. Way over hyped.Reinforcement is one of the only way's that Guardians can really hope to compete against Zerkers for Group aggro and that is on a 2-3 minute timer and last for around 15 seconds.One of the only.. meaning there more. Guardians have the best 'snap' agro, zerkers dont. Why do you think Zerkers are entitled to being snap agro kings? Are Guardians that much better defense wise than a Zerker? IMO I don't believe we are. The main factors in defense are Mit and Avoidance, which both classes are really close to each other on. Because of the nature of our hate CA we need to be hit more often to gain hate, plus it cost us power each time it kicks off.This is where I think we do have a big difference.. and its just my opinion. I have not raided EH/MMIS, so that I have no direct knowledge of, however I have seen the how Guardians have better defense.... thats plain and simple to me.You have never raided EoF zones and admit to have no direct knowledge on the topic. You say that Guardians have better defense. As I mentioned above, we have 24 more defense which is contested avoidance and marginal difference in the grand scheme. Guardians are the defensive plate tank remember? Zerkers are the offensive plate tank. You want to have all that DPS and equal defense to a guardian? Pshh... Betray to a guardian if you think guardians are so much more durable than a zerker.Are Zerkers that much better offense wise than a Guardian? I tend to believe Zerkers are better but I'll admit I don't know for sure. Doesn't the zerker hate CA involve them having a chance of getting extra hate each time they hit something, or am I thinking of another class?Nope, not ZerkersBoth Gaurdian and Zerker have a threat stance that generates hate everytime they are hit called Inflaming Defense/Taunting Defense. Don't Zerkers have some sort of group healing proc? Not sure how effective it is, but it's still a nice skill to have.Not that I have ever heard of.. we get the lovely 89 HP incombat regen /boggleInCombat health regen is better than none at all, is it not? Surely it adds up over the course of a long fight. If you look at it on a tick per tick basis, sure it doesnt appear to be much, you add that in over a 8 minute boss fight and its X amount of health less that your healers needed to expend mana on.In the end we will see how these changes affect each class.Indeed. I think the problem still lies in the fact that the Zerker EoF AA's need some re-tooling, though I've seen a defensive skill or two zerkers get in RoK that I'd kill to have as a guardian. Your level 80 ability is awesome. But the EoF AA's were implimented when Zerkers were coming out of KoS as tanking dps machines. They are still tanking, dps machines, but with 40 extra points theres not much to look forward to AA wise for 2 straight expansions. Thats a problem for any class, when your opportunities to advance your character are lackluster, dull, and insignificant.</blockquote></blockquote>

Raahl

11-05-2007, 04:54 PM

<cite>Pandarus@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't think anyone is calling for nerfs to guards. Guards seem to be where they should be. Which is great. Your class brothers need some <3 from SOE. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>They may not, but Sony always takes it that way. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

ailen

11-05-2007, 08:47 PM

In regards to Skel being an effective tank for Aftermath... Yep, he's an invaluable resource for the Berserker community and has championed the class to no end for a long time now.Guess what? He is probably going to be a Guardian soon. Think on that one for a moment.

Jvaloth

11-06-2007, 04:10 AM

<cite>Ailen@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to Skel being an effective tank for Aftermath... Yep, he's an invaluable resource for the Berserker community and has championed the class to no end for a long time now.Guess what? He is probably going to be a Guardian soon. Think on that one for a moment.</blockquote>The sky is falling! The sky is falling!...He's a guardian now by the looks of it. Ask him to give ya a play by play with a before and after editorial.I'm curious if his parses as a guardian come anywhere close to the parses he had as a zerker. I'm curious if he can "feel" the difference w/ that whopping 24 more defense when it comes to tanking.Pretty sure he'll find that his parses are down significantly, his tanking ability is almost identical, and he has a bit better agro control w/ reinforcement on an EoF AA shortened timer.<Drum roll>Skel, make a post!

ailen

11-06-2007, 04:50 AM

Nobody said the sky is falling. If they did, please quote it for me.

Jvaloth

11-06-2007, 06:11 AM

I made the same switch you just did.I raided that night. So many of the CA's are identical to eachother, my hotbars were almost mirror image. Just had to get used to the different icon graphics and some of the icons that were one thing on my zerk are something entirely different on my guardian. Cosmetic details.Aside from Moderate, Sentry Watch, Tower of Stone, Reinforcement, Plant and different buffs... the class is near identical.You'll find your DPS is lower than your Zerker and a steady amount. No open wounds, rampage, juggernaught etc to spike your numbers every 3 minutes. You'll have the same DPS from fight to fight. You'll take hits like the zerker (basically just gear based) and you'll find your ability to control agro is a bit better, especially if you spent 5 points in Reinforcement.Done.Sacrifice DPS and offensive buffs for more hitpoints and better agro control.The biggest thing I noticed was I had more control over an encounter. If I lost agro I generally can get it back fairly quickly where as when I was my zerker I could mash all the buttons in the world and if I lost agro it was a pita to get it back unless the offending DPSer gets 1 shot.Should be interesting to hear your before and after analysis.

Tyrion

11-06-2007, 06:47 AM

I think any Berserker betraying to Guardian will find the class boring. Eaiser to hold aggro in a snap, but boring. I'd love to betray Thorren and try him as a Berserker in a raid or two, but then getting all my DoF Ancient Teachings masters would be brutal.Welcome to the ranks Skel. You'll learn that Reinforcement > ALL, and Stone Sphere and Tower of Stone are quite literally life savers. Stone Skins own....to repeat, wish I was an Ogre. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raahl

11-06-2007, 11:48 AM

I remember not to long ago a number of Guardians betraying to Zerker. I don't remember any of the remaining Guardians running around like it's the end of the world.As I have said, we shall see how good or bad this expansion is. I'm sure that if there is some horrible imbalance, Sony with <strike>nerf</strike> fix it.Perhaps some people would be happy if the Zerkers/Guardians were merged into one class that has the best of each class. DPS and Defense, but then the other tanks would be unhappy with that and call for nerfs.

Daalilama

11-06-2007, 12:34 PM

One final post maybe....From a pvp server standpoint...when we compare guards against the other tanks out there we have not sort of incombat heal/health regen at all...which blows imo for pvp fights...for the zerkers who are switchin over to become guards heres a small word of warning...guards are not easymode and never will be even with the extra aa's we will get in rok regardless of pvp/pve servers and I would hope they consider their decision long an hard before they switch...and knowing soe the nerf bat will swing against guards yet again.As for tower of stone I use it quite a lot in raid zones but then I generally carry 6 - 8 tower shields to rotate through as needed and yes paying to repair those shields tend to add up if soe wanted to tweak anything they could remove the damage to the shields as a byproduct of that ca...now that would be nice.

LygerT

11-06-2007, 03:38 PM

strange, every zerk i heard who switched over to a guardian said they were quite a bit easier to play, tanking as a zerker can be quite stressful at times. if you just DPS and OT, its no big deal however.

Ferunnia

11-06-2007, 04:12 PM

Lol even my post wishing Skel good luck on being a guardian got deleted...I see again why so many choose to post in eq2flames.

einar4

11-06-2007, 04:17 PM

Wow, I read Skel's last post before it got deleted, it had nothing in it at all that broke TAC. Looks like certain people with admin access jmped onto the train to crazytown.

Rob626

11-06-2007, 05:05 PM

Awww... I REALLY wanted to hear what Skel had to say. Any chance for a more PC rewrite, Skel? Majo, 70 Guard of Venekor

Jvaloth

11-06-2007, 06:00 PM

Hmmm what the deal with over zealous forum mods censoring their own gaming community??And I agree, switching from zerker to guardian was a big step. Things did get alot more boring. I could no longer 2 box areas with a Templar efficiently because it was like watching paint dry. I had ALOT more fun as a Zerker.The thing is, I am MT of my guild and decided that I was willing to make that sacrifice for the extra hitpoints and the snap agro capabilities of Reinforcement. I also liked the Plant ability, before it was nerfed into a POS that it is now. Stone Sphere and Sentry Watch are also pretty cool abilities for protecting ones group. And although Moderate doesn't really have a function in a MT group its pretty nice to have in dungeons/instances when you don't have the best situation (i.e. no dirge,assassin,swashy for hate transfer).

LygerT

11-06-2007, 06:09 PM

if i were to guess i would say what probably happened is many of the issues brought up here are not being fixed in the expansion and are being brought into light. i will never betray but i will park my character if it continues to go this direction and play another class we may need, since a guardian can more easily do my job and do it better.

Jvaloth

11-06-2007, 06:50 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: </cite><blockquote>if i were to guess i would say what probably happened is many of the issues brought up here are not being fixed in the expansion and are being brought into light. i will never betray but i will park my character if it continues to go this direction and play another class we may need, since a guardian can more easily do my job and do it better. </blockquote>Then I guess it depends on what you perceive your job to be. If you are MT of your guild and offer nothing else to your group or your raid force, Guardian is the way to go. If you are an off tank you are contributing personal DPS aswell as good group buffs w/ the ability to tank. Pretty versatile, you have options.The fact is, if a guardian isnt actively tanking mobs, theres really no point to having one on a raid. You cannot say the same about the Beserker.

DasanW

11-06-2007, 07:09 PM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: </cite><blockquote>if i were to guess i would say what probably happened is many of the issues brought up here are not being fixed in the expansion and are being brought into light. i will never betray but i will park my character if it continues to go this direction and play another class we may need, since a guardian can more easily do my job and do it better.</blockquote>Then I guess it depends on what you perceive your job to be. If you are MT of your guild and offer nothing else to your group or your raid force, Guardian is the way to go. If you are an off tank you are contributing personal DPS aswell as good group buffs w/ the ability to tank. Pretty versatile, you have options.The fact is, if a guardian isnt actively tanking mobs, theres really no point to having one on a raid. You cannot say the same about the Beserker. </blockquote>So what happens when Guards can push Zerker DPS, as in the possibilities with ROK? Then I guess guards can fill another spot. I think this is what is going to happen, and Skel has pointed out (mind you without breaking any NDA). I agree with Lyger, I can level up my warlock /shrug

Tyrion

11-06-2007, 07:23 PM

<cite>Dasan@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: </cite><blockquote>if i were to guess i would say what probably happened is many of the issues brought up here are not being fixed in the expansion and are being brought into light. i will never betray but i will park my character if it continues to go this direction and play another class we may need, since a guardian can more easily do my job and do it better.</blockquote>Then I guess it depends on what you perceive your job to be. If you are MT of your guild and offer nothing else to your group or your raid force, Guardian is the way to go. If you are an off tank you are contributing personal DPS aswell as good group buffs w/ the ability to tank. Pretty versatile, you have options.The fact is, if a guardian isnt actively tanking mobs, theres really no point to having one on a raid. You cannot say the same about the Beserker. </blockquote>So what happens when Guards can push Zerker DPS, as in the possibilities with ROK? Then I guess guards can fill another spot. I think this is what is going to happen, and Skel has pointed out (mind you without breaking any NDA). I agree with Lyger, I can level up my warlock /shrug</blockquote>Ummm, no. Everyone recieves an additional 20 AAs. Even with Dragoon's Cyclone, a Guardian will not outparse Berserker AoE damage on any encounter where Open Wounds/Destruction is used. Not even close. Over the course of a zone-wide, the 40% Cyclone might even out due to encounters where OW/Destruction wasn't used, but that's not really taking into account that you still get a huge haste bonus from OW in addition to your Berserk buff. You can digress about the ease of getting DPS/Haste buffs all you want, but it still helps a ton. And that's not mentioning your Str buff and proc component of your offensive stance & aggro stance. Regardless of how redundant it might be, Berserkers can take AGI if they want and ensure that they always are hitting multiple targets some of the time, and often ALL of the time. When it comes down to it, Berserker damge output is above Guardians. Not by what it used to be, but it's still a fair bit.If your Guardian, and I would even go so far to say with MT group buffs is out-parsing an equally geared Berserker with comparative combat buffing, than your Berserker sucks.

Bremer

11-06-2007, 07:55 PM

<cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If your Guardian, and I would even go so far to say with MT group buffs is out-parsing an equally geared Berserker with comparative combat buffing, than your Berserker sucks.</blockquote>If we were still at KoS times of course. But's that's a long time ago. EoF changed the combat system very much in favor of Guardians with their new AAs, that you can hit nothing with auto attack in def stance anymore, dimishing returns on haste/dps and easier to get haste/dps. And now: Skel was the top Zerker world wide. As MT of a raid guild he killed absolutely everything in EoF with buckler line and pure dps aa spec and offstance and now zerkers will even get an amazing new defensive spell with RoK, Guardians not (as you could read for a few minutes in the Zerker forum) and he betrays to Guardian. He has beta access (was at Fan Faire) and obviously knows something you don't know. What do you think this might be?

aias

11-06-2007, 08:03 PM

Let's assume that guard dps as OT is pretty [Removed for Content] close to a berserker in RoK. I'd rather have the guardian OT as well since they have better survivability tools, especially in OT groups that are less than optimal.To sum it up, the additional achievement points will not noticeably boost berserker dps. There just isn't anything to spend them on! KOS tree, may go down the INT line for 17perma haste??? EoF tree, most berserkers have probably already maxed their dps potential already.

Tyrion

11-06-2007, 08:19 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyrion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If your Guardian, and I would even go so far to say with MT group buffs is out-parsing an equally geared Berserker with comparative combat buffing, than your Berserker sucks.</blockquote>If we were still at KoS times of course. But's that's a long time ago. EoF changed the combat system very much in favor of Guardians with their new AAs, that you can hit nothing with auto attack in def stance anymore, dimishing returns on haste/dps and easier to get haste/dps. And now: Skel was the top Zerker world wide. As MT of a raid guild he killed absolutely everything in EoF with buckler line and pure dps aa spec and offstance and now zerkers will even get an amazing new defensive spell with RoK, Guardians not (as you could read for a few minutes in the Zerker forum) and he betrays to Guardian. He has beta access (was at Fan Faire) and obviously knows something you don't know. What do you think this might be?</blockquote>Ha ha, I went to Fanfaire too, so I know everything he does, and I have beta access too. I've killed everything in the game except Avatars, since Vigilance is a casual raid guild. So I think the better questoin is, do you know everything me and Skel do?<img src="http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9263/eq2000053mr6.th.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="150" height="118" />Just for you bud. That's me with my FF Cloak.This mob mentality that's grown entirely in response to Skel's thoughts on the Berserker forums has avalanched badly. I'm not arguing that the niche that Berserkers once had as the prime AoE tank is beginning to marginalize, but honestly trying to convince anyone that Guardians do as much DPS or more than Berserkers is a joke. Just a flat comparison of offensive buffs and offensive stances shows that alone. The CA post in the Berserker forums is well-thought and rationalized, and I agree with it. But even with slightly weaker CAs, Berserkers have two Stances with Damage procs to a Guardian's 0, a Haste/DPS buff to a Guardian's 0, and a Str buff to a Guardian's Defense buff. It's just as easy to buff skills as it is DPS/Haste. You'll always have a Dirge, EVERYONE tanks in offensive stance these days, so debating the negatives of Defensive Stance is a moot point, and many OT groups rock a Warden now anyways. And don't get me started on how much more a role Auto-attack plays than CAs when it comes do your damage output.I know for a fact what's happening to Berserkers, and I think many are over-reacting. This whole berserker-mob-with-pitchforks mentality is getting old. I will say a boost to some Berserker EoF tree abilities would be great, and much needed. Balance is always an issue everyone is concerned with, but Berserkers never complained about 40% Frontal Auto-attack when it was originally installed in the game, but only now because some Guardians have enough AAs to get it....oh wait, many of us already do. I empathize that you guys need some tweaks here and there, but this end-of-the-world, one-of-the-top-end-hardcore-Berserkers-betrayed-so-we're-doomed ideology is silly.

Talathion

11-06-2007, 08:34 PM

We're not happy because, before if you got Agi, you couldnt get sta, now you can get both, end of story

Rob626

11-06-2007, 08:37 PM

I've figured it out! It's all part of Skel's evil plan! He's betrayed so others will follow. Then, right before the release of RoK, he'll betray back. Why, you say, would Skel do this? Two reasons. First, the more Zerks that go Guard the higher the prices for Guard skills and the cheaper the Zerk skills. He will benefit from the decreased demand for Zerk skills. Second: It's just the kind of sick mindbending that appeals to Zerks in general. He's messing with the Zerk community's collective head. Bad Skel! Bad! And that is why the sky is falling. Majo, 70 Guard of Venekor

Talathion

11-06-2007, 08:49 PM

PreRoK4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 sta, 4/1 int(needed for DPS)13 points leftWhat can a berserker do? - Finish Sta line, add 2 more points to intGuardian - The same____________________________Post-RoK4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 sta, 4/1 int33 points leftWhat Can a Berserker do? Finish sta line, add 3/8/8/1 int (Increasing Total DPS by about 4%), 2 points leftWhat can a Guardian Do? hell.Add Agi Line! 4/4/8 agi, finish sta line!, (Increasing Overall AOE Dps by 40%) 5 points left.. hell I would get 4/1 wis, mit debuff!

Jvaloth

11-06-2007, 09:58 PM

Amen Tyrion.I keep hearing all this BS about how Guardians are encroaching on Zerker DPS. This is complete and utter bullcrap.If you haven't played both classes, quite honestly you don't know [I cannot control my vocabulary] you are talking about.And if you switch from Zerker to Guardian, you are in for a rude awakening. However greener you may think the pastures are on the Guardian side, Zerker remains a far more versatile and potent all around tank. Skel is a prime example that Zerkers can and have tanked every mob in the game. Add in the fact that they can annhilate Guardians on parses and one could make an argument that Guardians should be the ones complaining. Zerker can do everything a guardian can but do way more DPS! ...Zerkers have had it awesome for so long, I'm just amazed to see the Zerker community whine, moan, and complain about their "plight". Its almost comical. Especially when you have 4 other tanks that have waaay more pressing issues that have yet to be addressed.

Jvaloth

11-06-2007, 10:08 PM

<cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're not happy because, before if you got Agi, you couldnt get sta, now you can get both, end of story</blockquote>Huh?My zerker is spec'd AGI and STA. I have had both for a long time.End of story.

wooooof

11-07-2007, 04:57 AM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amen Tyrion.I keep hearing all this BS about how Guardians are encroaching on Zerker DPS. This is complete and utter bullcrap.If you haven't played both classes, quite honestly you don't know [I cannot control my vocabulary] you are talking about.And if you switch from Zerker to Guardian, you are in for a rude awakening. However greener you may think the pastures are on the Guardian side, Zerker remains a far more versatile and potent all around tank. Skel is a prime example that Zerkers can and have tanked every mob in the game. Add in the fact that they can annhilate Guardians on parses and one could make an argument that Guardians should be the ones complaining. Zerker can do everything a guardian can but do way more DPS! ...Zerkers have had it awesome for so long, I'm just amazed to see the Zerker community whine, moan, and complain about their "plight". Its almost comical. Especially when you have 4 other tanks that have waaay more pressing issues that have yet to be addressed.</blockquote>I have lvl 70 of both and im telling you guardians are encroaching on zerkers dps. I play both so i know what im talking about.And you should look at Kemts post on zerker forums about how were getting the shaft in the RoK expansion and the diffrence in CA's.And all gear and play ability being equal a zerker wont out damage a guard by alot on a zone wide parse, wich is all that matters. We will do it but not by enough and after RoK it will be even less.

LygerT

11-07-2007, 06:47 AM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're not happy because, before if you got Agi, you couldnt get sta, now you can get both, end of story</blockquote>Huh?My zerker is spec'd AGI and STA. I have had both for a long time.End of story.</blockquote>so you deliberately chose to throw one of your best abilities into the trash can?i've specced about every possible way one can as a zerk and the Agility line is pure crap for us, which is basically why this whole thread even exists in the first place...the devs keep turning a blind eye to us as we were once the DPS kings of our class, which is too bad now that i have finally gotten into my groove that we have been beaten into submission by the constant lack of attention. the defense buff we are getting with RoK will not fix the issues we are having and struggling with accepting. i am having a strong feeling that zerks will once again become a dying breed, as our name begins to lose its luster and we become more and more dulled with each month. every single one of our EoF abilities is useless or counterproductive in one way or another, in our KoS tree the agility line cuts half our nuts off as it ovverrides one of our best abilities. our only avenue is continuing down the INT line or depreciating our AoE DPS and going with AGI. if they fixed it so there was additional benefits from those AAs wasted in agility then people might be more inclined to take that path, however currently there is none.

TuinalOfTheNexus

11-07-2007, 07:49 AM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're not happy because, before if you got Agi, you couldnt get sta, now you can get both, end of story</blockquote>Huh?My zerker is spec'd AGI and STA. I have had both for a long time.End of story.</blockquote>so you deliberately chose to throw one of your best abilities into the trash can?i've specced about every possible way one can as a zerk and the Agility line is pure crap for us, which is basically why this whole thread even exists in the first place...the devs keep turning a blind eye to us as we were once the DPS kings of our class, which is too bad now that i have finally gotten into my groove that we have been beaten into submission by the constant lack of attention. the defense buff we are getting with RoK will not fix the issues we are having and struggling with accepting. i am having a strong feeling that zerks will once again become a dying breed, as our name begins to lose its luster and we become more and more dulled with each month. every single one of our EoF abilities is useless or counterproductive in one way or another, in our KoS tree the agility line cuts half our nuts off as it ovverrides one of our best abilities. our only avenue is continuing down the INT line or depreciating our AoE DPS and going with AGI. if they fixed it so there was additional benefits from those AAs wasted in agility then people might be more inclined to take that path, however currently there is none. </blockquote>Or you could stop whining that Guards are gonna spec a tree you don't even need, get a bloodthirsty choker, spec 84802 Str and then start whining that the Guard can't hold aggro off your 100% critting, 100% AE autoattack (with capped haste and AE procs) because their DPS is too low...

Bremer

11-07-2007, 09:55 AM

As it stands now Guardians have compared to Beserker:- superior taunts- superior defensive buffs (+hp, +sta, +def, we get hp regen...)- superior aggro tool (Reinforcement with AA (+set bonus), wo don't even get one tiny second off insolent recast)- superior combat art damage (that even can be enhanced with AAs)- almost equal autoattack damage (due to double attack AA)1-3 are fine, but 4-5 are definetely not and it certainly won't get better with more AAs. Zerkers as offensive warriors simply must do overall noticable more DPS than a Guardian as defensive warrior and not only in AE fights with all 3 specials up. But without a doubt the game moves in this direction, where Guardians can keep the zonewide DPS of Zerkers, can taunt for more and in the end are always chosen as tank because most people still live in a pre LU13 world.I don't aks to nerf Guards in any way, but 4 and 5 definetely have to be shifted towards Zerker to make them clearly visible superior in these categories. The best way would be improved EoF AAs, where Zerker got absolut nothing to enhance the class and one end skill is worse than the next. But as it seems now the devs are doing absolutely nothing in this direction...

Raahl

11-07-2007, 11:22 AM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it stands now Guardians have compared to Beserker:- superior taunts- superior defensive buffs (+hp, +sta, +def, we get hp regen...)- superior aggro tool (Reinforcement with AA (+set bonus), wo don't even get one tiny second off insolent recast)- superior combat art damage (that even can be enhanced with AAs)- almost equal autoattack damage (due to double attack AA)1-3 are fine, but 4-5 are definetely not and it certainly won't get better with more AAs. Zerkers as offensive warriors simply must do overall noticable more DPS than a Guardian as defensive warrior and not only in AE fights with all 3 specials up. But without a doubt the game moves in this direction, where Guardians can keep the zonewide DPS of Zerkers, can taunt for more and in the end are always chosen as tank because most people still live in a pre LU13 world.I don't aks to nerf Guards in any way, but 4 and 5 definetely have to be shifted towards Zerker to make them clearly visible superior in these categories. The best way would be improved EoF AAs, where Zerker got absolut nothing to enhance the class and one end skill is worse than the next. But as it seems now the devs are doing absolutely nothing in this direction...</blockquote>1. This may be true, but with the zerkers superior DPS, they do not need taunts as much. IMO DPS is aggro king!2. Zerkers get some other defensive buffs other than the HP regen.<ul><li>68 Mayhem - Increases the physical defense of the berserker's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus crushing attacks is especially improve.</li><li>69 Wall of Ferocity - Increases the physical mitigation of the berserker in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to snare nearby opponents whenever the berserker strikes in melee.</li><li>68 Suppressed Rage - Decreases the berserker's attack rate and combat damage in exchange for increased defense for a short duration.</li></ul>3. Yes we have Reinforcement. It's one of the only ways a guardian can keep group aggro. I would compare Reinforcement to the zerkers Insolent Gibe.4. The Zerkers abilities far outweigh the extra damage our CA's do. A zerkers haste and added proc damage more than makes up.5. So to be almost equal to a zerker a guardian has to be STA spec'd and use a buckler, giving up defense. It's a trade off, offense for defense.Zerkers more DPS that guardians. Unless there is some game change that is totally drastic, and no the 20 AA are not it, then I fail to see where we will ever surpass the zerkers.

Raahl

11-07-2007, 11:38 AM

<cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote>PreRoK4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 sta, 4/1 int(needed for DPS)13 points leftWhat can a berserker do? - Finish Sta line, add 2 more points to intGuardian - The same____________________________Post-RoK4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 sta, 4/1 int33 points leftWhat Can a Berserker do? Finish sta line, add 3/8/8/1 int (Increasing Total DPS by about 4%), 2 points leftWhat can a Guardian Do? hell.Add Agi Line! 4/4/8 agi, finish sta line!, (Increasing Overall AOE Dps by 40%) 5 points left.. hell I would get 4/1 wis, mit debuff!</blockquote>Before: STR 4/4/8/8, AGI 4/4/4, INT 4/4/5Projected After: STR 4/4/8, AGI 4/4/8/6/2, INT 4/8/8/7/2So I'll increase from 20% AoE to 40% AoE.Though I may drop the last couple in INT and keep the added hate from the 4th ability in the STR line.Moral of the story, don't pretend to know what a Guardian will do with his extra points.

einar4

11-07-2007, 12:54 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it stands now Guardians have compared to Beserker:- superior taunts- superior defensive buffs (+hp, +sta, +def, we get hp regen...)- superior aggro tool (Reinforcement with AA (+set bonus), wo don't even get one tiny second off insolent recast)- superior combat art damage (that even can be enhanced with AAs)- almost equal autoattack damage (due to double attack AA)1-3 are fine, but 4-5 are definetely not and it certainly won't get better with more AAs. Zerkers as offensive warriors simply must do overall noticable more DPS than a Guardian as defensive warrior and not only in AE fights with all 3 specials up. But without a doubt the game moves in this direction, where Guardians can keep the zonewide DPS of Zerkers, can taunt for more and in the end are always chosen as tank because most people still live in a pre LU13 world.I don't aks to nerf Guards in any way, but 4 and 5 definetely have to be shifted towards Zerker to make them clearly visible superior in these categories. The best way would be improved EoF AAs, where Zerker got absolut nothing to enhance the class and one end skill is worse than the next. But as it seems now the devs are doing absolutely nothing in this direction...</blockquote>1. This may be true, but with the zerkers superior DPS, they do not need taunts as much. IMO DPS is aggro king!2. Zerkers get some other defensive buffs other than the HP regen.<ul><li>68 Mayhem - Increases the physical defense of the berserker's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus crushing attacks is especially improve.</li><li>69 Wall of Ferocity - Increases the physical mitigation of the berserker in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to snare nearby opponents whenever the berserker strikes in melee.</li><li>68 Suppressed Rage - Decreases the berserker's attack rate and combat damage in exchange for increased defense for a short duration.</li></ul></blockquote> Well if DPS is agro king, them points one and two are fairly good examples of a contradiction. Since DPS is agro king, and the defensive buffs basically drop DPS, then the ability to maintain agro is lost as soon as the defensive buffs are used. Mayhem is the exception, but the reuse timer and low values of the buff make it rather a minor addition. The other two buffs have to be used, but agro management becomes problematic when they are used. At no point does a Guardian have to sacrifice agro management for defense, as the mechanisms used are quite different.

LygerT

11-07-2007, 04:41 PM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're not happy because, before if you got Agi, you couldnt get sta, now you can get both, end of story</blockquote>Huh?My zerker is spec'd AGI and STA. I have had both for a long time.End of story.</blockquote>so you deliberately chose to throw one of your best abilities into the trash can?i've specced about every possible way one can as a zerk and the Agility line is pure crap for us, which is basically why this whole thread even exists in the first place...the devs keep turning a blind eye to us as we were once the DPS kings of our class, which is too bad now that i have finally gotten into my groove that we have been beaten into submission by the constant lack of attention. the defense buff we are getting with RoK will not fix the issues we are having and struggling with accepting. i am having a strong feeling that zerks will once again become a dying breed, as our name begins to lose its luster and we become more and more dulled with each month. every single one of our EoF abilities is useless or counterproductive in one way or another, in our KoS tree the agility line cuts half our nuts off as it ovverrides one of our best abilities. our only avenue is continuing down the INT line or depreciating our AoE DPS and going with AGI. if they fixed it so there was additional benefits from those AAs wasted in agility then people might be more inclined to take that path, however currently there is none. </blockquote>Or you could stop whining that Guards are gonna spec a tree you don't even need, get a bloodthirsty choker, spec 84802 Str and then start whining that the Guard can't hold aggro off your 100% critting, 100% AE autoattack (with capped haste and AE procs) because their DPS is too low...</blockquote>apparently you never read a single thing in this thread.

Jvaloth

11-07-2007, 07:21 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it stands now Guardians have compared to Beserker:- superior tauntsHeh, our taunts are identical. If you are referring to Reinforcement, you have Insolent Gibe that has a huge range and grabs all mobs even if they are in 4-5 different groups. - superior defensive buffs (+hp, +sta, +def, we get hp regen...)As Warriors, we share most of our defensive buffs, the group mitigation buff and the self only hunker down style ability. If you consider superior defensive buffs to be hitpoints and stamina... And Guardian defensive buff is raid wide so any Zerkers on the raid also will benefit from the defense, meaning zerkers/guardians have the SAME defensive buffs. Zerkers have superior offensive output and versatility to play multiple roles on a raid. Stone Sphere is an excellent ability since it triggers 6 times of 36 seconds.- superior aggro tool (Reinforcement with AA (+set bonus), wo don't even get one tiny second off insolent recast)Reinforcement rocks. Its perk for not being able to grab 50 mobs in 10 different groups with the single click of a button (Insolent Gibe). Skel has already mentioned on another forum that he's not used to having to cycle through mobs or seperate encounters to maintain agro. Thats another perk to the AGI line since you gain access to a fast cast AE and actively hitting multiple mobs infront of you 40% of the time never hurts. I never was a fan of the Zerker EoF AA's and they do need some adjustments, but don't come whining to the guardian forums and expect a shoulder to cry on. Zerkers have been and remain one of the best over all fighters in the game, capable of MT,OT, or balls out DPS / DPS group friendly buffs.- superior combat art damage (that even can be enhanced with AAs)You're CA damage can also be enhanced with AA's. - almost equal autoattack damage (due to double attack AA)Ok, how about this. Zerkers give Guardians their Offensive Stance and you can have the 9% double attack Guardian's AA and the Block AA.1-3 are fine, but 4-5 are definetely not and it certainly won't get better with more AAs. Zerkers as offensive warriors simply must do overall noticable more DPS than a Guardian as defensive warrior and not only in AE fights with all 3 specials up. But without a doubt the game moves in this direction, where Guardians can keep the zonewide DPS of Zerkers, can taunt for more and in the end are always chosen as tank because most people still live in a pre LU13 world.People keep thinking that a defensive warrior means actual defensive mechanics. Defensive has a lot broader context than that. Defensive isnt based on just mitigation and avoidance (which zerkers and guardians are basically identical). It really isn't the case that Guardians are superior at tanking mobs over Zerker. It factors in the extra hitpoints, the single group buffs that protect their groups (Sentry Watch and StoneSphere) and (Moderate/Sustain). Agro tools that defend their group or raid. As far as pure tanking, Zerkers tank just as good as Guardians. A good reason why Guardians are picked as MT is because they are filling their ROLE in this !@#!#@! game. DEFENSIVE TANK. Zerkers (THAT YOU) are an OFFENSIVE TANK. You fill the role as an OFF TANK on ADDS while DPS buffing the MELEE DPS GROUP. Guardians bring nothing else to a raid than agro management and a few extra hitpoints. If a guardian is on a raid, he better be tanking otherwise he is a waste of space. THE SAME CANNOT BE SAID FOR ZERKERS. THAT IS WHY GUARDIANS TANK. IT IS WORKING AS INTENDED. I don't aks to nerf Guards in any way, but 4 and 5 definetely have to be shifted towards Zerker to make them clearly visible superior in these categories. The best way would be improved EoF AAs, where Zerker got absolut nothing to enhance the class and one end skill is worse than the next. But as it seems now the devs are doing absolutely nothing in this direction...If they make you visibly superior in CA and auto/double attack damage, I want to be visibly superior in my ability to tank mobs, mitigate damage, and avoid incoming attacks. But then you'll cry and whine that Guardians can tank better than you... and we wouldn't want that would we? You ever wonder why Guardians spec offensively? Its because we don't do enough DPS or have enough taunts to keep agro if we are defensively spec'd. Zerkers can spec Agi/Int w/ tower shield if they wanted and fight in O Stance and would keep agro just fine AND tank better than a simularly spec'd guardian.</blockquote>The bottom line is that the Zerker EoF tree is crappy because Zerkers were overpowered in KoS. If you take a look at Assassni AA's in EoF, they are also crappy and they too were over powered in EoF. The AA trees were built without a 40 AA cap increase anticipated. In order to balance out the trees and the classes, they will most likely have to review/revamp AA trees because going 2 expansions with no choices of AA to invest in, is a problem. Zerkers need some tweaks, as do other classes. But this whole argument/debate is just plain silly. A DPS spec'd Zerker will always outparse a DPS spec'd Guardian. A defensively spec'd Zerker will always outparse a defensively spec'd guardian and tank just as well. You zerkers that think you have it bad have your heads in the clouds.

Bremer

11-07-2007, 08:24 PM

<cite>Jvaloth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As it stands now Guardians have compared to Beserker:- superior tauntsHeh, our taunts are identical. If you are referring to Reinforcement, you have Insolent Gibe that has a huge range and grabs all mobs even if they are in 4-5 different groups. Guards have one Taunt more plus the Taunt proc with a lot higher proc rate- superior defensive buffs (+hp, +sta, +def, we get hp regen...)We've gone over this. We have the same exact defensive buffs, the group mitigation buff and the self only hunker down style ability. If you consider superior defensive buffs to be hitpoints and stamina... And Guardian defensive buff is raid wide so any Zerkers on the raid also will benefit from the defense, meaning zerkers/guardians have the SAME defensive buffs. Yet Zerkers have way more offensive output and versatility to play multiple roles on a raid.More HP is clearly superior to HP regen and I forgot Stonesphere and this stuff- superior aggro tool (Reinforcement with AA (+set bonus), wo don't even get one tiny second off insolent recast)Reinforcement rocks. Its perk for not being able to grab 50 mobs in 10 different groups with the single click of a button (Insolent Gibe). I never was a fan of the Zerker EoF AA's and they do need some adjustments, but don't come whining to the guardian forums and expect a shoulder to cry on. Zerkers have been and remain the best over all fighter in the game, capable of MT,OT, or balls out DPS / DPS group friendly buffs.You only have to cast Reinforcement + 1 AE for the same result. If I wanted to be in a scout group I'd make a scout, not a Warrior.- superior combat art damage (that even can be enhanced with AAs)You're CA damage can also be enhanced with AA's. Yeah, awesome, I can increase AE combat art dmg. If there's an AE fight I can hit 4 mobs for up to 3k dmg every 1.5 seconds with Open Wounds or cast for 2.0 seconds my AEs that do 1-2k dmg. So in the end the spells are rarely used, while the single target dmg Guards can improve are used every fight.- almost equal autoattack damage (due to double attack AA)Ok, how about this. Zerkers give Guardians their Offensive Stance and you can have the 9% double attack Guardian's AA and the Block AA.Great, we have a deal. I have here a parse here from FTH, tanked in offstanace. The proc did 50k dmg of 3 million (with Dirge, etc in group), the double attack should give me 3 times the dmg.1-3 are fine, but 4-5 are definetely not and it certainly won't get better with more AAs. Zerkers as offensive warriors simply must do overall noticable more DPS than a Guardian as defensive warrior and not only in AE fights with all 3 specials up. But without a doubt the game moves in this direction, where Guardians can keep the zonewide DPS of Zerkers, can taunt for more and in the end are always chosen as tank because most people still live in a pre LU13 world.People keep thinking that a defensive warrior means actual defensive mechanics. Defensive has a lot broader context than that. Defensive isnt based on just mitigation and avoidance (which zerkers and guardians are basically identical). It really isn't the case that Guardians are superior at tanking mobs over Zerker. It factors in the extra hitpoints, the single group buffs that protect their groups (Sentry Watch and StoneSphere) and (Moderate/Sustain). Agro tools that defend their group or raid. As far as pure tanking, Zerkers tank just as good as Guardians. A good reason why Guardians are picked as MT is because they are filling their ROLE in this !@#!#@! game. DEFENSIVE TANK. Zerkers (THAT YOU) are an OFFENSIVE TANK. You fill the role as an OFF TANK on ADDS while DPS buffing the MELEE DPS GROUP. Guardians bring nothing else to a raid than agro management and a few extra hitpoints. If a guardian is on a raid, he better be tanking otherwise he is a waste of space. THE SAME CANNOT BE SAID FOR ZERKERS. THAT IS WHY GUARDIANS TANK. IT IS WORKING AS INTENDED. And you see no problem if the defensive Warrior can compete with the DPS of the offensive WarriorI don't aks to nerf Guards in any way, but 4 and 5 definetely have to be shifted towards Zerker to make them clearly visible superior in these categories. The best way would be improved EoF AAs, where Zerker got absolut nothing to enhance the class and one end skill is worse than the next. But as it seems now the devs are doing absolutely nothing in this direction...If they make you visibly superior in CA and auto/double attack damage, I want to be visibly superior in my ability to tank mobs, mitigate damage, and avoid incoming attacks. But then you'll cry and whine that Guardians can tank better than you... and we wouldn't want that would we? You ever wonder why Guardians spec offensively? Its because we don't do enough DPS or have enough taunts to keep agro if we are defensively spec'd. Zerkers can spec Agi/Int w/ tower shield if they wanted and fight in O Stance and would keep agro just fine AND tank better than a simularly spec'd guardian.Rofl, I want to see the Beserker that does amazing DPS with a tower shield and keeps aggro.But it's kind of funny, many people believe that Guardians have magic abilities to take less damage (like Guards have more mitigation, also they have no buff for more mitigation) and at the same time Guardians believe that Zerkers have magic abilities to do generate as much hate as they want</blockquote>A DPS spec'd Zerker will always outparse a DPS spec'd Guardian. A defensively spec'd Zerker will always outparse a defensively spec'd guardian and tank just as well. You zerkers that think you have it bad have your heads in the clouds.Obviously you didn't get the point that this is no longer the case with RoK</blockquote>

Wilin

11-08-2007, 02:13 AM

Wow, I step away from the forums for a few days and a 9 page thread pops up about guardians vs. zerkers. I haven't seen that much activity on this board since the brawlers came over here to get our avoidance nerfed 2 years ago.The bottom line is that zerkers don't benefit (that much) from AGI or WIS, and guardians don't benefit that much from WIS. So Guards have a 4th tree that they can dump those extra 20 points into and see some decent benefit and zerkers aren't getting much for those same 20 points.But, it's not just zerkers that are having that problem, the extra AA are helping some classes more than others. My other toon is getting jack for 40 extra AA. I really think it's something that needs to be addressed gamewide TBH.

Jvaloth

11-08-2007, 02:40 AM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite><blockquote>But, it's not just zerkers that are having that problem, the extra AA are helping some classes more than others. My other toon is getting jack for 40 extra AA. I really think it's something that needs to be addressed gamewide TBH.</blockquote>Totally agree. EoF AA's were designed to strengthen or weaken classes from their KoS performances. With a new expansion coming out and 40 more AA points added, they will need to make adjustments. Theres plenty of classes that have a right to request a review of their EoF AA's in light of the additional points to spend.

Raahl

11-08-2007, 11:53 AM

<cite>Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite> <blockquote> At no point does a Guardian have to sacrifice agro management for defense, as the mechanisms used are quite different. </blockquote>Any reduction in DPS sacrafices aggro management. This is true for both Guardians and Zerkers. A Guardian with low DPS will have aggro trouble. My examples of mit/defense buffing was to prove that Zerkers do have more defensive buffs than just HP regen.Here are a guardian one, that show a sacrafice of aggro management (less DPS) for defense. <ul><li>69 Wall of Force (basically the zerkers Wall of Ferocity) - Increases the physical mitigation of the guardian in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to root any opponent the guardian strikes and misses.</li></ul>

Raahl

11-08-2007, 12:12 PM

<cite>Wilin wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The bottom line is that zerkers don't benefit (that much) from AGI or WIS, and guardians don't benefit that much from WIS. </blockquote>The AGI tree AoE ability is usable by Zerkers 76% of the time (1- (Duration / Recast) or (1 - (36/155)), if they spam Open Wounds every time it comes up. Yea it's not as effective for them as it is a guardian, but 76% of the time is still a substantial amount of time. Plus the AGI line has more than just the AoE ability. It has 1 extra AoE attack and a very nice end ability.

zormik

11-08-2007, 12:33 PM

oh yeah sure. All heroic/epic content comes in groups... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Most of the content is single target espescially for epics incase you didn't notice.

Sir_Halbarad

11-08-2007, 01:47 PM

I am not sure why we need to have the "Us vs. Them" discussion.I think we all can agree that Berserkers need some love in their EoF Tree.But the "You get more than we do and that's why we are [Removed for Content]" doesn't help in my opinion. I want a strong berserker class as well. And I can understand the frustration - but the sky isn't falling <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

BoneSmasher

11-08-2007, 05:33 PM

<cite>zormik wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh yeah sure. All heroic/epic content comes in groups... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Most of the content is single target espescially for epics incase you didn't notice.</blockquote>That is exactly the reason I don't spec the AGI line. I tried it for a month and compared to buckler spec with STR/STA/INT, it sucked for me from a DPS standpoint. The AGI line does not suit my play style.I have no issue maintaining group agro. I just manage hate the same way guardians have always had to do it. Depending on the AGI to be your group hate mangement as a guardian is not so smart anyway. Yes it help a little, but does not replace the work you have to do if you have a big AOE hitter anyway.Let's don't forget that gear has a lot to do with DPS. Especially the weapon you use combined with the optimal AA setup to support that gear/weapon mix.I outparse a lot of people as a guardian, in groups, solo, and on raids. Player skill + gear + AAs makes the difference. Once you start figuring in the ability to play your character at the max potential and the level of gear and CAs and your AA mix, any concept of balance goes out the window anyway.Plus, any tank's DPS in a raid is highly dependent on the support classes. Give me a group with a dirge, illus and warden buffs as a DPSer, let me run in full offensive and I can parse over 2K easy.Put a zerker in that same group with the same buffs and equivalent gear and he will parse 600 to 1K DPS better than me zonewide.However, if I switch to Defensive stance my DPS drops 40%. But my survivability goes up dramatically. Being able to put another 20 AA points into my warrior tree is going to make my DPS better, of course. But I promise you, it won't be going into the AGI line. There are much better places to spend it for optimal DPS based on my play style and current gear.I would think that would be true for each player: AA's will be chosen based on what works best for you. The cookie cutter route is not so smart if you want to make sure you are getting the max benefit. I parse everything to make sure I am getting the max out of my gear, AAs etc. DPS, Dmg Taken, Hit %, Crits, you name it.I use that information to refine my setups, CA order, AAs and the lot of it.So no matter what, there will always be a wide variance in tanks of the same class, and tanks of difference classes unless you set them up exactly the same, with the same level of skill for each class.I don't see these balance issues everyone is talking about as being that severe.In my opinion, SONY does not balance us for raiding anyway. I bet if you ask a dev, and can get an answer, all classes are balanced at the lowest common denominator: Treasured gear and Adept 1, against solo and group content. Not raid gear and masters against raid content other than to make sure it all scales up correctly.If you compare classes like that, the difference is much larger in the BASE classes than it would be at raid level. The disparity comes about once you add in raid gear, Masters, AA builds. etc. Then I think you see classes begin to merge rather than separate.It sounds to me from the posts I have been reading that berzerkers just simply want to out DPS us. But they already do. So the question is, how much is enough to make you guys happy? Zonewide 300-400 DPS? Or does it need to be 1K DPS?Good luck with that.

Leshrac Gol

11-08-2007, 08:06 PM

I know a Zerker that took CT as his diety. one of CT's miracles is to fear/root a mob for one full minute. I watched as he beat down a 72 heroic in that minute while it was fear/rooted. Show me a guard that can do that. Zerker dps is in no danger from guards.

ZhouyuTheGreat

11-08-2007, 08:32 PM

I'm a zerker and I have made a few posts countering the arguement of the majority of berserker community. However i will say this, we still cannot talk about beta and t8 ...all I can say at this point is, berserker keep your cool for another week and you shall hear what we got <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /drool

Aull

11-08-2007, 09:46 PM

Thank you ZhouynTheGreat! I finally a positive note! I would like to say that I am not unhappy with guards getting additional aa's, just hope that zerkers will still be classified as a dps plate fighter once all this rok stuff is released.

Jvaloth

11-09-2007, 01:00 AM

<cite>Halbarad@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not sure why we need to have the "Us vs. Them" discussion.I think we all can agree that Berserkers need some love in their EoF Tree.But the "You get more than we do and that's why we are [Removed for Content]" doesn't help in my opinion. I want a strong berserker class as well. And I can understand the frustration - but the sky isn't falling <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Well said. Truthfully I hope Zerkers get some EoF AA love. God knows when I was a zerker and I saw that tree I was somewhat bewildered by the lackluster choices. 2 expansions with no meaningful AA choices to invest in is not cool.

LygerT

11-09-2007, 06:23 AM

well i would like to note that the zerk forum has turned into a stirred up beehive, generally that doesn't happen if everyone is happy with how things are turning up. personally i am just waiting to see what happens, the NDA isn't helping people keep their cool much through all of this though so many are jumping to conclusions, which is easily understandable if you're on the other side of the fence.

Tid

11-09-2007, 10:16 AM

In the last 8 months I have been a raid MT i have found when I join a new guild or pick up raid and a zerker is up front, its not that there bad tanks, its the player that sucks.Yes us Guards have some snap agrro tools, but you have to be at least half decent to play a guard and hold agrro on adds.When Rok comes out I want to roll a Zerker and see what all the beef is about!<Join my petition, no more nub tanks!> =p

Schmalex23

11-09-2007, 11:22 PM

<cite>Rob626 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Awww... I REALLY wanted to hear what Skel had to say. Any chance for a more PC rewrite, Skel? Majo, 70 Guard of Venekor</blockquote>I have given up posting on the guard forums... bad bad things seem to happen to me when i do.

Caladin

11-11-2007, 11:15 AM

Wow this zerker / guardian thing is a battle that will never be won.Remember guys if they are both so close just pick the one you want to play and realize you may have differences. Here is what our guild / Alliance does .. First MT is the guardian in full defensive mode this means his dps is lowered beyound belief. MA is preferably a Zerker or other plate class with Zerker being prefered above others. We have used Zerkers in the past as MT and it worked great till the Zerker got jealouse of the up and coming guardians and split so he could be MT somewhere else. One reason to raise DPS is to increase hate for the guardians. Its not to take the zerkers job away from them its to help keep agro without the update to several of the spells they had to do something. I have heard this same argument from the original beta on and its getting tiring.. All I hear is whining whining an whining. BOTH classes have good and bad. If you want to find out whats hard try playing a troub solo or something. (I play a guardian but have played a troub and zerker) you will find that zerkers and guardians are both awesome but were meant to be very very close and soe had changed things yes but being the MT is not the most glorious thing in a raid. DPS is not the main thing for a TANK! the main thing for a tank to think about is AGRO! If a tank looses it the soft skins die really quick and the raid goes bust. Mitigation and agro are key points for main tanking. ( not including any of the resist thats all upgradeable for both classes) I think the fighting over the little bit of a change a guardian gets over a zerker or the other way around is driving people crazy. just remember Guardians were always meant to be the main tank with zerkers doing better solo. SOE said that in one of the old forums I wish I could find.

LygerT

11-11-2007, 05:19 PM

forget it, my opinion doesn't matter in this thread apparently.

-Aonein-

11-11-2007, 08:16 PM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>the title of the thread is a bit misleading, i don't think any zerker would think they should have more AAs or better than any other class, most just think things need to be worked out a little better than they have been and to maybe have a little time under the microscope instead of being the ignored red-headed step child that we have been for the past 2 years and counting(dramatical phrase, meaning constantly nerfed). </blockquote>I think 2 years is an exaggeration. In KoS Berserker DPS was overpowered. Even Berserkers knew it and were waiting for the nerfbat to come. Thing is, it never did. SoE instead introduced an EoF tree that didn't boost their DPS too much, and brought other classes DPS up instead.Relative to other classes, Berserkers still do very nicely on zonewides. So the problem is more one of Guardian envy than the actual class itself; which let's face it is generally more raid useful than a Crusader or Brawler.And in that case, it's still a simple fact that Berserkers have better CAs for DPS on both single and group encounters. It's absolutely incorrect to compare zonewides for a Guardian MT versus a Berserker in a DPS group, because you absolutely need the best buffs and curing possible on the MT for them to hold aggro.It is still quite simple - for MT you want a Guardian. For any other slot in the raid a Berserker is a better choice. Ask a scout if they prefer a Guardian or Berserker's group buffs. If you betray as OT you're reducing your raids DPS in trade for a slightly bigger comfort zone when you occasionally OT adds.</blockquote> I agree, alot of zerkers knew our DPS was grousely over powered in KoS and I agree that it is the reason we didn't get a very big upgrade to our DPS in EoF tree. People complain on the zerkers forums that it takes too long to cast these AoE skills, but with RoK items reducing the cast speed of CA abilities and items that increase CA damage by a base percentage, Zerkers will stay and always will be the one and only AoE tank, won't matter how much AA you give a Guard, Zerker will always be the preferred AoE tank. I didn't read all of this post cause there really is no need too, over the last 3 years this game has been released, every time there is a new level cap raise, there is this debate that takes place here in the forums about Zerkers getting the shaft. I apologize for my Zerker brethern guys, they feel that you guys are some how taking something away from us and I really don't see that happening, I think it is overreacting for the main part. Like some of you have pointed out, alot of you have already been spec'd in the AGI line for over a year, so realistically, like I said, its all overreaction. If berserkers had anything to remotely argue about, it would be that Berserk is slowly being drowned out by the dimishing returns on Haste/DPS mod because of the amount of items and tier of buffs out there now, not hard to be in a group or on a raid in a group that is giving you over 150 to each making Berserk pretty much useless, which of course, this has nothing to do with Guardians at all.