10/2007 - What do we need NOW? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Kulras

10-24-2007, 05:51 AM

With RoK on the horizon, I have no idea what is in store for the Warden class but I must say I am concerned. I thought it might not be a bad idea to get some feedback going now before release hits, maybe a dev or moderator will read this and go "hey, not bad ideas" and make last minute changes that can benefit us for both PvP and PvE but not overpower the class.I hear a lot about how we're not wanted on raids because we don't bring what other healers bring to the table. I also hear that we're pretty solid in PvP but other healers aren't necessarily. Is this balanced?When I look at other healer class spells, I envy the ability to do the following (note, all spells were taken from Alakzam and might not be up to date):Debuffs<ol><li>Convict (Inq - decreases all resistances of target)</li><li>Verdict (Inq - enemies low on health are reduced to 1HP)</li><li>Debase (Inq - reduces str + int)</li><li>Involuntary Restoration (Temp - heals and cures enemies sometimes while attacking)</li><li>Sonorious Spirits (Myst - messes nearby enemies and reduces hate)</li><li>Wail of the ancients (Myst - reduces stam, poison & elemental resistances)</li><li>Lamenting Soul (Myst - decreases target's attack damage)</li><li>Eidolon (Myst - reduces str + & sta to target)</li><li>Lethargy (Myst- reduces attack speed of enemy encounter)</li><li>Maelstrom (Def - drains health & power of target encounter and adds to ally's)</li><li>Bane of protection (Def - chance to ward ally on successful attack)</li><li>Abhorant Seal (Def - reduces targets str, sta, agi, and defense)</li></ol>Buffs<ol><li>Fanaticism (Inq - increased attack speed for group)</li><li>Act of Conviction (Inq - chance to deal extra damage with each attack)</li><li>Forboding Conversion (Inq - makes targets flee in terror, forcing them to lose all control)</li><li>Compelled Repentance (Inq - chance to counterattack when hit)</li><li>Glory of Battle (Temp - chance for ally to heal entire group on each successful attack)</li><li>Unyielding Benediction (Temp - chance to absorb physical damage when struck in combat)</li><li>Bolster (Myst - increases health and stats for a short duration)</li><li>Ancient Avatar (Myst - +str, +sta, +agi)</li><li>Spirit of the mammoth (Myst - +str * + sta to group)</li><li>Ancient Balm (Myst - cleanses all debuffs on ally)</li></ol>There are probably boatloads of abilities I missed and some weren't mentioned (because they overlapped from one class to another).I made the same assessment many of you did: the warden is the defensive version of the 2 druids. It's pretty obvious too when you look at the AE and single target nukes of the Fury (which I was once) and their buffs compared to ours. They value INT which is damage where we value wisdom which for the priest class is more power to our pool.With all of this in mind, I would have to say where we are lacking (and trying to keep some semblance of balance for both PvP and PvE) is the following:Debuffs <ul><li>Although we are defensive in nature, it only seems sensible to add something along the line of a -DPS debuff to a target or target encounter. It can be less effective as say a mystic or defiler debuff but it should stack against a PvE target/encounter with their debuffs. Adding something along these lines makes the warden more desirable in raids where debuffing targets is always a huge thing in any MMO.</li><li>Roots- we have them, and they don't work on EPIC encounters (at least, that is how I read the tooltip the last time I looked). I suspect the single target root should allow EPIC targets to be rooted. We are the most effective class at rooting, we have many of them...only seems to make sense that some of it work in a raid situation (where it might be usefull in a certain situation).</li><li>Sylph - although it can root heroics, last time I looked epics are immune. This should be changed to allow epics to be shortly stunned, mezzed, or immobilized for a short duration to make it more usefull in the raid environment.</li></ul>Buffs <ul><li>Since we are defensive in nature, this is where we are best suited for a buff in our class. Damage prevention was given to shaman so my guess is a nice boost to health + power for the group is what we need to give our groups/raids.</li><li>We were given the ability to buff a class with primitive instinct but it is only a single target ability. Many other priest classes buffs cross the raid as well as the party. I suspect it's only fair and reasonable to do the same with our spell, at the very least for the party.</li><li>Spores - one of our class defining abilites. Seems to me this one should be raid wide. It doesn't do enough healing to be considered game breaking, neither in PvP nor PvE. Limiting it to single target is pretty weak though, especially in a raid environment. In PvP it's very weak where burst damage is the name of the game and this ability can make or break a fight by a few hit points. </li></ul>Healing In terms of Warden vs. Fury, our overall HPS ratio is pretty equivalent. We have a small HOT on all of our heals as an added benefit. In general, this is fine and dandy; however, considering how much offense the Fury brings to the table, it would make reasonable sense to me to add more defense to our table. My suggestion is to add more healing to our HOT spells, especially the ticks that occur after the initial one.So what are your thoughts? Where do we need to be buffed? Try to keep PvP and PvE in mind when offering your suggestions. The boards have been pretty dead as of recently, but hopefully this post will spark some interest and some usefull feedback from more seasoned veterans...

Effie

10-24-2007, 09:56 AM

I suppose if you take any single class and compare them to 5 other classes in the archetype, you're going to find a lot of things that might seem unbalanced.I'm pleased with the Warden class overall. We have good utility, superb healing and great AAs.The only thing I think we need is an armor set with STR/WIS/STA for us who play melee wardens.I'm only an occasional raider. Most of my time is spent running instances, mentoring and a bit of soloing. So Warden is the ideal class for my playstyle. If my aim was to play a raiding healer, I would not have chosen a warden (or fury for that matter)

GinFan

10-24-2007, 03:04 PM

What we need now is the same thing we needed 9 months ago, more raid desirability. Devs please read the past 9 months of posts at <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=86" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...w.m?forum_id=86</a> and at <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/wardens/" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/wardens/</a> for suggestions.

Aidyn

10-25-2007, 11:09 PM

I did read somewhere that WIS was going to be needed (by MT's etc) more on Raids than in past expansions. So hopefully our WIS buffs will be our defining moment and get us those raid spots we all want back.

Kulras

10-25-2007, 11:38 PM

gita

10-26-2007, 07:27 AM

<cite>Effie wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only thing I think we need is an armor set with STR/WIS/STA for us who play melee wardens.</blockquote>That its a thing YOU need, not all wardens play the same way...<cite></cite><cite>Effie wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I'm only an occasional raider. Most of my time is spent running instances, mentoring and a bit of soloing. So Warden is </blockquote> The OP its trying to made a point on what RAID PVE WARDENS need, at this moment we need LOTS things to made the class desirable for "serious" raiding. Any class its fine on "ocasional" raids but when that raids progress its when the warden class fails, that its happening to all wardens playing on medium to hardcore raids, its a fact, there is not a spot for us to raid. We only have 1 option if we want raid and its re-roll another class. I am playing a warden since beta in EQ2 i not like any other class, i play each day and raid since Tier 5, for me if not get a solution on raid wardens, RoK its the end of the game.So if its not hurting you why you aganist changes ? how gonna hurt you if we get a plus who made wardens desirable in a raid again ? its really fustrating trying to made a point, and asking for changes who lots of us wardens on "medium" and "hardcore" raids NEED, and always getting replyes on players WHO NOT RAID AT THAT LEVEL, aganist the changes...I mean, ¿ how gonna hurt you playstyle ? if wardens get new buff or debuff or heal....can have the selfish players at least think about it ?<cite></cite>

Effie

10-26-2007, 10:54 AM

That its a thing YOU need, not all wardens play the same way...I guess you didn't bother reading the "for us who play melee wardens" I put at the end of that statement.....So if its not hurting you why you aganist changes ?Uhhh.. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was against changes.If you look at the last line in my post you'd realise that I actually agree with the OP that Wardens could use some more raid desirability.... If my aim was to play a raiding healer, I would not have chosen a wardenedited to make me look like less of a [Removed for Content]...

gita

10-26-2007, 11:56 AM

ok i missread it then, my apologies so you agree Wardens need some changes right ? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Effie

10-26-2007, 12:05 PM

<cite>Gitana@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok i missread it then, my apologiesso you agree Wardens need some changes right ? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yep!Nothing major but definately something that adds more raid desireablity.

da5idblacksun

10-26-2007, 03:05 PM

Roll a Templar and you'll realize just how good your Warden is. I know in my raiding guild, Wardens are always welcome.

netman

10-26-2007, 04:00 PM

<cite>da5idblacksun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Roll a Templar and you'll realize just how good your Warden is. I know in my raiding guild, Wardens are always welcome.</blockquote><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> maybe templars in your guild are unskilled ? Except very special fights, with 6 healers' raid, 4 are clerics and 3 are templars...And i think it's a common line up today.You can take a warden or a fury for DPS, most of time, but it's not optimal...Warden is perfect for soloing and grouping gameplay. But stop [Removed for Content] about our raiding perspectives. They are very low, especially if you want to be a 100% healing healer...

Arielle Nightshade

10-26-2007, 06:10 PM

<cite>Renarde@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>da5idblacksun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Roll a Templar and you'll realize just how good your Warden is. I know in my raiding guild, Wardens are always welcome.</blockquote><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> maybe templars in your guild are unskilled ? Except very special fights, with 6 healers' raid, 4 are clerics and 3 are templars...And i think it's a common line up today.You can take a warden or a fury for DPS, most of time, but it's not optimal...Warden is perfect for soloing and grouping gameplay. But stop [I cannot control my vocabulary] about our raiding perspectives. They are very low, especially if you want to be a 100% healing healer...</blockquote>I have a 70 Templar...and a 70 Defiler. My Warden HEALS better than either one of them if you look at the overall parse. I'm sure I'll get a flame out of this, but Defilers don't really heal all that well. They PREVENT damage in huge amounts...but when they have to start healing...it's a stretch. Templars burst heal very well, but I can usually outparse an equally skilled Templar. That's me having played this class since launch...not a weakness with either other healing archetype.I'm lucky to be in a guild that values a Warden in the MT group, but as we progress, it becomes clearer and clearer that other classes are more valuable that the pure healing output we can do. I may be wrong, but a guild that always includes a Warden on every fight..and in the MT group..isn't clearing the toughest end-game content consistently. Please prove me wrong. I'd welcome that precedent.I like raiding, but can seriously take or leave it. I agree 100% with GinFan....if attention is given to tweaking a Warden in the min/max game that is Raiding...how can it possibly hurt the rest of people in this class to be just that much better than they were before? Answer: it won't. Giving a Warden more raid utility will only enhance the class for those playing at a less intense level.A group of people playing cutting edge at the end-game content has every bit as much right to ask for things as those of us PvPing and playing even more casually. Indeed, that group is usually more able to provide WHAT is needed and WHY because of the technical expertise (numbers crunching, etc) that they bring. This information is what a dev needs to make a change.I didn't roll a Warden to raid, either...but I want the class as a whole to give me the option. As a side note: It'd be really nice to see raid content that was clever enough to need more than 2 tanks, or where people are left out if you want to actually do it. If we have an issue with not being needed, try being a Berserker or Guardian who wants to raid.

eclipse25

10-26-2007, 09:07 PM

I agree I don't think our heals are the major problem its our buffs that need some loving. Maybe since Furies buffs are aimed for caster maybe have Wardens aim for melee DPS such as making "Primitice Instinct" a group buff not a single target buff.Or maybe have our buffs aimed for the MT group like giving us either of the following buffs like a stone skin, parry buff or a hate buff to help the MT control aggo any one of these would help or even maybe give us the ability to put our self buff "Patron of the Forest" on to a fighter class.Also improving Sandstorm in such way that is alot more effective in raids as from my understanding Guardans can cap off defence with buffs and good gear, perhaps the Dev could add a stone skin proc to this or add Advoidance(or anything that a tank can't cap easily), I would like to add that before LU30 the T5 version "Dust Storm" was useful in raids as they could buff Advoidance and it made a huge difference in raids.

MullenSkywatcher

10-26-2007, 10:13 PM

You're missing about 3 debuffs from the defiler side of things too, one from AA line, and some from bloodlines. I wouldn't get my hopes up for increasing raid desireability, it would take a major revamp of our current spells and AAs, which is basically a class revamp. Seeing how long Crusaders have suffered and how Rangers are a nerf magnet does not make me hopeful that our class will suddenly "see the light", it only took a year to make Tranquility a useful spell after all.I'm happy to see the original poster do a comparison of raid utility though, anything to counter the "we heal great!" posts *rolls eyes*

ELITEO

10-27-2007, 02:41 AM

^^^ rolls eyes *I thought they should have taken the lame defensive buffs to the offensive side along time ago, what does defensive mean compared to furies anyway?Make the tree have grasping roots in Aoe, Nature walk be an offensive aoe snare instead of defensive ...Sands storm have Aoe Dot dmg ...Group root have some sort of effect on Epic ... I dont care what it is, sumthin for having ordination over 400 ** Mooshi Blinks**Ps: i luv not being on a mac

Melli

10-28-2007, 04:07 PM

If my aim was to play a raiding healer, I would not have chosen a wardenActually, for those that started out in the very beginning days of EQII, it was clearly stated that ALL flavors of a archetype would do the same job, just in a different manner. It was just a matter of flavor, which type of healer you preferred to play. Now, down the road, that isn't the case. Except in serious AE fights, there just isn't any reason to put more than one warden on the roster. And I have a feeling that with RoK, that is going to become worse.My warden brings two things to the table: I can outheal any other healer when it comes to dispersed damage, like in AE fights. I almost never get low on power. I have noticed that the MT in my usual raiding group is loving that I've started putting bat on him. I think that if they made bat a group wide spell, that would be a huge boon because then we'd be useful in a MT group or in a squishy group, in more than just an AE fight. That, combined with being able to cast primitive instinct on more than one target would go a long way toward fixing our desirability.

docpaulp

10-29-2007, 06:00 AM

<cite>Melli wrote:</cite><blockquote> I think that if they made bat a group wide spell, that would be a huge boon because then we'd be useful in a MT group or in a squishy group, in more than just an AE fight. </blockquote>Too bad now that flowing thought is not what it's used to be. Meaning, in the main tank group its very likely to be already capped from Enchanter+dirge.

LaFon

10-30-2007, 06:59 PM

After playing for several years I think what we need most now is to not have any spell conflicts with Furies. Even though we are broth Druids, the classes differer enough that none of our heals or buffs should cancel out or refuse to work. So many times I would have been picked for a group or raid but wasn't because I hear that Wardens/Furies don't co mingle very well. Soe just make it where we are 100% compatable with each other, let those heals and buffs stack, after all were defensive in nature and furies are offensive. Does any other warden feel this way? This won't fix us totally, but I think it would be a good 1 step in the right direction.

Sorano

10-30-2007, 08:10 PM

Firstly let me preface this by saying I am not a melee warden and have no interest in being one either, but I can still see some inherent flaws in our set armour/buffs that need to be addressed. Here is a link to my profile with the gear I have:<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=164767102" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=164767102</a>With a full set of EOF fabled I am sitting on a grand total of 52 strength. I am actually burdened, while fully self buffed, and the only thing preventing me from walking around like a waddling duck is the fact that I have Nature Walk. Our lack of STR is a serious concern and needs to be looked at. If they are not going to add STR to our set gear, then I would suggest that the devs look at adding STR to our wolf mit buff, via AA points.

RoXx

10-31-2007, 07:23 AM

<cite>Effie wrote:</cite><blockquote>I suppose if you take any single class and compare them to 5 other classes in the archetype, you're going to find a lot of things that might seem unbalanced.I'm pleased with the Warden class overall. We have good utility, superb healing and great AAs.The only thing I think we need is an armor set with STR/WIS/STA for us who play melee wardens.I'm only an occasional raider. Most of my time is spent running instances, mentoring and a bit of soloing. So Warden is the ideal class for my playstyle. If my aim was to play a raiding healer, I would not have chosen a warden (or fury for that matter)</blockquote>Our AA's suck (cure line=nerfed, anti-root/kb line=bugged etc)Healing is good (check raid parses though, and any decent shaman and templar should be on top, if they know their class) [I have a defiler also, and can easily do 40-50% of raid total healing]Utility sucks (group invis>evac, oh and that was all utility unless you count sow buff which wont help a lot in combat)Debuffs = NON existant. Cant count our dot, which is a small elemental debuff. All other healers own us in debuffs.DPS is good. Though a decent specced fury or inq would beat us most of the timeBuffs are ok. Our skillbuff is good, but worthless compared to some of the other healers' buffs in a dps group. Good for tank though. Our wis buff is good for second healer or tank, but useless in dps group. Overall, warden is as the only healer useless in dps group. All the other healers can fit both in dps and mt group..

Effie

10-31-2007, 02:52 PM

Our AA's suck (cure line=nerfed, anti-root/kb line=bugged etc)Every class I have played seems to have some not-so-useful or broken AA lines/skills.Utility sucks (group invis>evac, oh and that was all utility unless you count sow buff which wont help a lot in combat)You really think that invis (totems can be purchased for dirt cheap) is better than group evac?Why is it that classes that can cast SOW seem try to downplay it's usefulness?Portals are also really really handy.Debuffs = NON existant. Cant count our dot, which is a small elemental debuff. So we actually have a debuff but we can't count it as a debuff? And since when is a 1-1.2k debuff considered small? Just wonderin'. DPS is good. Though a decent specced fury or inq would beat us most of the timeHogwash!

MullenSkywatcher

10-31-2007, 10:49 PM

The discussion about warden PvE raid issues always wanders off topic into how wardens fare in groups, solo, or PvP. Those are a completely different discussion in which portals, totems, SoW, and evac are relevant. The fact is that for a PvE raiding warden, the combination of spells, AA abilities, and the typical raid encounters in EoF have made the warden irrelevant as a RAIDING class. If you are playing a warden in PvP, Solo, or Group situations then these complaints primarily do not apply to you.The question is, will something change in RoK (spells, AA lines, or how the encounters are set up) that will alter the current state for RAIDING wardens. I feel compelled to put RAIDING in capitals because the focus of the complaints is on RAIDING, and getting people to stay focused on that aspect is more difficult than explaining why a defiler is a superior healer even though a warden might heal more in the parse.

Vizven

11-03-2007, 03:42 PM

Id like an invis/camo spell, even if its self only. Saves me remembering to buy totems. The post about STR/Wis armour sets was good too, my warden is woefully under represented in the STR area unless i drop wis to get it. Other than that and a couple of "broken" druid rings id like to see working again im pretty happy. I have a 70 INQ in my line up and can honestly say hes much worse off than my Warden hands down.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

MullenSkywatcher

11-03-2007, 08:22 PM

<cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id like an invis/camo spell, even if its self only. Saves me remembering to buy totems. The post about STR/Wis armour sets was good too, my warden is woefully under represented in the STR area unless i drop wis to get it. Other than that and a couple of "broken" druid rings id like to see working again im pretty happy. I have a 70 INQ in my line up and can honestly say hes much worse off than my Warden hands down.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Your inquisitor is worse than your warden in what way?

Deejar_

11-05-2007, 10:33 AM

Take up tinkering. There is an excellent self invis ability at around 200/350 skill. Also the FD ability can be usefull as well.Zante.

Vizven

11-06-2007, 11:15 AM

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id like an invis/camo spell, even if its self only. Saves me remembering to buy totems. The post about STR/Wis armour sets was good too, my warden is woefully under represented in the STR area unless i drop wis to get it. Other than that and a couple of "broken" druid rings id like to see working again im pretty happy. I have a 70 INQ in my line up and can honestly say hes much worse off than my Warden hands down.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Your inquisitor is worse than your warden in what way?</blockquote>Well dont get me wrong, im not dissing the Inq class per se, but the warden just seems to be able to heal better in most of the situations i find myself in. Plus the Warden can run faster, teleport, buff rather well and solo all day long if i wish. The Inq group vitae takes a base 5 seconds to cast, whereas the warden version takes 3, thats just an example.

Arielle Nightshade

11-06-2007, 02:07 PM

<cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id like an invis/camo spell, even if its self only. Saves me remembering to buy totems. The post about STR/Wis armour sets was good too, my warden is woefully under represented in the STR area unless i drop wis to get it. Other than that and a couple of "broken" druid rings id like to see working again im pretty happy. I have a 70 INQ in my line up and can honestly say hes much worse off than my Warden hands down.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Your inquisitor is worse than your warden in what way?</blockquote>Well dont get me wrong, im not dissing the Inq class per se, but the warden just seems to be able to heal better in most of the situations i find myself in. Plus the Warden can run faster, teleport, buff rather well and solo all day long if i wish. The Inq group vitae takes a base 5 seconds to cast, whereas the warden version takes 3, thats just an example.</blockquote>Sadly, your Warden can't buff anywhere near as well as your Inquisitor can...for one. If you can't keep a group healed as well or solo as well on your Inquis, I'd wonder how you have them spec'd AA-wise and what gear they are wearing. The Inquis group vitae takes longer to cast, but does a damned sight more healing than our group heal. It's a tradeoff.Not dissing YOU here, either...just saying that Wardens could use some help in areas where other classes either excel or are doing fine.

Fromingo

11-06-2007, 04:38 PM

As far as raiding goes...Our heals are fine. Our Debuffs are non-existant.Our buffs are very sub-par.Our DPS is ok, a bit below others but I'm not knocking it.Some suggestions to make us more raid friendly.Beef up our buffs. Our HP buffs are pathetic. Give us other things like Block/Deflect/Parry which tanks don't have capped as often. Make our Primal Instinct line group wide (do not lower warden'spersonal offensive skills if you have to lower the grp buff, just addskill buff too our final warden melee line AA. IE if you lower bufffrom 67 to 40 then put 27 on the Crit AA so that warden stays the sameas we NEED those skills to hit at all).Make Dust/Sandstorm useful on epics. It doesn't have to be in it's current form but we have seen that you can make debuffs/stasis(stun, daze, mez etc) effects have different uses/durations on epics so no reason it should not be possible on Dust/Sandstorm too. Reduce defense buff some and add either parry/block/deflect or put in an AE that debuffs mob's attack skills/haste/DPS etc. Just make it useful on epics and in raids and for high end raid tanks capped on defense. Give us a Cure line that is useful. Like a ticking cure that keeps curing like our regens for like 5 extra ticks if you put 5 AA in it. And make whatever changes beefy, small debuffs/buffs/changes will not make the warden hop on raid leader's radar.

MullenSkywatcher

11-06-2007, 08:43 PM

Right now wardens are a FUN class, but not a RAIDING class. There is no reason why they can't be both, however, the ball is in the devs court.

Vizven

11-07-2007, 11:16 AM

<cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id like an invis/camo spell, even if its self only. Saves me remembering to buy totems. The post about STR/Wis armour sets was good too, my warden is woefully under represented in the STR area unless i drop wis to get it. Other than that and a couple of "broken" druid rings id like to see working again im pretty happy. I have a 70 INQ in my line up and can honestly say hes much worse off than my Warden hands down.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Your inquisitor is worse than your warden in what way?</blockquote>Well dont get me wrong, im not dissing the Inq class per se, but the warden just seems to be able to heal better in most of the situations i find myself in. Plus the Warden can run faster, teleport, buff rather well and solo all day long if i wish. The Inq group vitae takes a base 5 seconds to cast, whereas the warden version takes 3, thats just an example.</blockquote>Sadly, your Warden can't buff anywhere near as well as your Inquisitor can...for one. If you can't keep a group healed as well or solo as well on your Inquis, I'd wonder how you have them spec'd AA-wise and what gear they are wearing. The Inquis group vitae takes longer to cast, but does a damned sight more healing than our group heal. It's a tradeoff.Not dissing YOU here, either...just saying that Wardens could use some help in areas where other classes either excel or are doing fine.</blockquote>Well, I will conceed that the Inq prbably has more heals per second but i find that when it goes pear shaped the Warden has the edge since his heals cast faster and heal regardless of weather the mob hits or misses the tank. Since the original thread was about what wardens need i have to say that of all the classes ive played (I have four 70's and the warden is currently 64) The warden seems pretty well rounded at this point. My biggest bugbear is not having an invis spell, hardly a big problem i know but someone asked, hehe

MullenSkywatcher

11-07-2007, 01:50 PM

<cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id like an invis/camo spell, even if its self only. Saves me remembering to buy totems. The post about STR/Wis armour sets was good too, my warden is woefully under represented in the STR area unless i drop wis to get it. Other than that and a couple of "broken" druid rings id like to see working again im pretty happy. I have a 70 INQ in my line up and can honestly say hes much worse off than my Warden hands down.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Your inquisitor is worse than your warden in what way?</blockquote>Well dont get me wrong, im not dissing the Inq class per se, but the warden just seems to be able to heal better in most of the situations i find myself in. Plus the Warden can run faster, teleport, buff rather well and solo all day long if i wish. The Inq group vitae takes a base 5 seconds to cast, whereas the warden version takes 3, thats just an example.</blockquote>Sadly, your Warden can't buff anywhere near as well as your Inquisitor can...for one. If you can't keep a group healed as well or solo as well on your Inquis, I'd wonder how you have them spec'd AA-wise and what gear they are wearing. The Inquis group vitae takes longer to cast, but does a damned sight more healing than our group heal. It's a tradeoff.Not dissing YOU here, either...just saying that Wardens could use some help in areas where other classes either excel or are doing fine.</blockquote>Well, I will conceed that the Inq prbably has more heals per second but i find that when it goes pear shaped the Warden has the edge since his heals cast faster and heal regardless of weather the mob hits or misses the tank. Since the original thread was about what wardens need i have to say that of all the classes ive played (I have four 70's and the warden is currently 64) The warden seems pretty well rounded at this point. My biggest bugbear is not having an invis spell, hardly a big problem i know but someone asked, hehe </blockquote>Group content doesn't show the weaknesses in the Warden setup. Raiding does. The original concept of the leather based healers was that they would do more damage to compensate for their weaker defenses. However, your Inquisitor's Verdict spell, when cast on a raid mob will do 2% of a raid mob with several million hit points. Wardens don't need fixes to strenghten their abilities in groups, they need fixes to their raid capabilities. Weakest buffs + weakest debuffs + weakest utility + heal mechanics that heal last = healer left off the raid force whenever possible.

MullenSkywatcher

11-07-2007, 02:09 PM

<cite>Kulras wrote:</cite><blockquote>With RoK on the horizon, I have no idea what is in store for the Warden class but I must say I am concerned. I thought it might not be a bad idea to get some feedback going now before release hits, maybe a dev or moderator will read this and go "hey, not bad ideas" and make last minute changes that can benefit us for both PvP and PvE but not overpower the class.I hear a lot about how we're not wanted on raids because we don't bring what other healers bring to the table. I also hear that we're pretty solid in PvP but other healers aren't necessarily. Is this balanced?When I look at other healer class spells, I envy the ability to do the following (note, all spells were taken from Alakzam and might not be up to date):Debuffs<ol><li>Convict (Inq - decreases all resistances of target)</li><li>Verdict (Inq - enemies low on health are reduced to 1HP)</li><li>Debase (Inq - reduces str + int)</li><li>Involuntary Restoration (Temp - heals and cures enemies sometimes while attacking)</li><li>Sonorious Spirits (Myst - messes nearby enemies and reduces hate)</li><li>Wail of the ancients (Myst - reduces stam, poison & elemental resistances)</li><li>Lamenting Soul (Myst - decreases target's attack damage)</li><li>Eidolon (Myst - reduces str + & sta to target)</li><li>Lethargy (Myst- reduces attack speed of enemy encounter)</li><li>Maelstrom (Def - drains health & power of target encounter and adds to ally's)</li><li>Bane of protection (Def - chance to ward ally on successful attack)</li><li>Abhorant Seal (Def - reduces targets str, sta, agi, and defense)</li></ol>Buffs<ol><li>Fanaticism (Inq - increased attack speed for group)</li><li>Act of Conviction (Inq - chance to deal extra damage with each attack)</li><li>Forboding Conversion (Inq - makes targets flee in terror, forcing them to lose all control)</li><li>Compelled Repentance (Inq - chance to counterattack when hit)</li><li>Glory of Battle (Temp - chance for ally to heal entire group on each successful attack)</li><li>Unyielding Benediction (Temp - chance to absorb physical damage when struck in combat)</li><li>Bolster (Myst - increases health and stats for a short duration)</li><li>Ancient Avatar (Myst - +str, +sta, +agi)</li><li>Spirit of the mammoth (Myst - +str * + sta to group)</li><li>Ancient Balm (Myst - cleanses all debuffs on ally)</li></ol>There are probably boatloads of abilities I missed and some weren't mentioned (because they overlapped from one class to another).I made the same assessment many of you did: the warden is the defensive version of the 2 druids. It's pretty obvious too when you look at the AE and single target nukes of the Fury (which I was once) and their buffs compared to ours. They value INT which is damage where we value wisdom which for the priest class is more power to our pool.With all of this in mind, I would have to say where we are lacking (and trying to keep some semblance of balance for both PvP and PvE) is the following:Debuffs <ul><li>Although we are defensive in nature, it only seems sensible to add something along the line of a -DPS debuff to a target or target encounter. It can be less effective as say a mystic or defiler debuff but it should stack against a PvE target/encounter with their debuffs. Adding something along these lines makes the warden more desirable in raids where debuffing targets is always a huge thing in any MMO.</li><li>Roots- we have them, and they don't work on EPIC encounters (at least, that is how I read the tooltip the last time I looked). I suspect the single target root should allow EPIC targets to be rooted. We are the most effective class at rooting, we have many of them...only seems to make sense that some of it work in a raid situation (where it might be usefull in a certain situation).</li><li>Sylph - although it can root heroics, last time I looked epics are immune. This should be changed to allow epics to be shortly stunned, mezzed, or immobilized for a short duration to make it more usefull in the raid environment.</li></ul>Buffs <ul><li>Since we are defensive in nature, this is where we are best suited for a buff in our class. Damage prevention was given to shaman so my guess is a nice boost to health + power for the group is what we need to give our groups/raids.</li><li>We were given the ability to buff a class with primitive instinct but it is only a single target ability. Many other priest classes buffs cross the raid as well as the party. I suspect it's only fair and reasonable to do the same with our spell, at the very least for the party.</li><li>Spores - one of our class defining abilites. Seems to me this one should be raid wide. It doesn't do enough healing to be considered game breaking, neither in PvP nor PvE. Limiting it to single target is pretty weak though, especially in a raid environment. In PvP it's very weak where burst damage is the name of the game and this ability can make or break a fight by a few hit points. </li></ul>Healing In terms of Warden vs. Fury, our overall HPS ratio is pretty equivalent. We have a small HOT on all of our heals as an added benefit. In general, this is fine and dandy; however, considering how much offense the Fury brings to the table, it would make reasonable sense to me to add more defense to our table. My suggestion is to add more healing to our HOT spells, especially the ticks that occur after the initial one.So what are your thoughts? Where do we need to be buffed? Try to keep PvP and PvE in mind when offering your suggestions. The boards have been pretty dead as of recently, but hopefully this post will spark some interest and some usefull feedback from more seasoned veterans...</blockquote>Getting back to the OP, I doubt your suggestions will be implemented for a couple of reasons:1. I'd love to have a decent debuff, rather than just the single Cold/Heat on our dot, but SOE will not allow epics to be rooted. Slyph used to root epics and was changed a long time ago due to trivializing content. Many of the EoF fights are only difficult because of the adds that pop, and if those could be rooted away from the raid, the fights become trivial (like, all of the 3rd floor of Emerald Halls minus Herald of Woushi and Sawtooth).2. Making Spirit of Bat a group spell would be nice, but the reason we are not in the MT group anymore (and therefore not required for just about any raid) is to make room for additional hate transfer in the form of Coercer, Dirge, Swashbuckler etc. A significant hate transfer spell or ability might put us back in the MT group, however, such an ability does not yet exist for the class.3. Healing took a back seat in EoF to Power Regen and AoE avoidance. Most raiding guilds I know of switched over to raiding with 4 bards, great group and raid utility, and the dps you lose to a T1 dps class is usually more than made up with the bards ability to enhance other classes dps (Cacaphony of Blades for Dirges [Melee] and Aria's for Troubadours [Caster]). I don't expect to see a departure from this setup in RoK, which again leaves wardens out in the cold for another year.That being said, I'd love to be wrong, as I miss playing my warden in raids (although being a troubadour is fun)

Arielle Nightshade

11-07-2007, 02:26 PM

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right now wardens are a FUN class, but not a RAIDING class. There is no reason why they can't be both, however, the ball is in the devs court.</blockquote>...Color me: Pessimistic ..with regard to this one. But, agreed.

Vizven

11-07-2007, 02:34 PM

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arielle Nightshade wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vizven wrote:</cite><blockquote>Id like an invis/camo spell, even if its self only. Saves me remembering to buy totems. The post about STR/Wis armour sets was good too, my warden is woefully under represented in the STR area unless i drop wis to get it. Other than that and a couple of "broken" druid rings id like to see working again im pretty happy. I have a 70 INQ in my line up and can honestly say hes much worse off than my Warden hands down.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Your inquisitor is worse than your warden in what way?</blockquote>Well dont get me wrong, im not dissing the Inq class per se, but the warden just seems to be able to heal better in most of the situations i find myself in. Plus the Warden can run faster, teleport, buff rather well and solo all day long if i wish. The Inq group vitae takes a base 5 seconds to cast, whereas the warden version takes 3, thats just an example.</blockquote>Sadly, your Warden can't buff anywhere near as well as your Inquisitor can...for one. If you can't keep a group healed as well or solo as well on your Inquis, I'd wonder how you have them spec'd AA-wise and what gear they are wearing. The Inquis group vitae takes longer to cast, but does a damned sight more healing than our group heal. It's a tradeoff.Not dissing YOU here, either...just saying that Wardens could use some help in areas where other classes either excel or are doing fine.</blockquote>Well, I will conceed that the Inq prbably has more heals per second but i find that when it goes pear shaped the Warden has the edge since his heals cast faster and heal regardless of weather the mob hits or misses the tank. Since the original thread was about what wardens need i have to say that of all the classes ive played (I have four 70's and the warden is currently 64) The warden seems pretty well rounded at this point. My biggest bugbear is not having an invis spell, hardly a big problem i know but someone asked, hehe </blockquote>Group content doesn't show the weaknesses in the Warden setup. Raiding does. The original concept of the leather based healers was that they would do more damage to compensate for their weaker defenses. However, your Inquisitor's Verdict spell, when cast on a raid mob will do 2% of a raid mob with several million hit points. Wardens don't need fixes to strenghten their abilities in groups, they need fixes to their raid capabilities. Weakest buffs + weakest debuffs + weakest utility + heal mechanics that heal last = healer left off the raid force whenever possible.</blockquote>Ah well yes thats a good point, i dont raid with my Warden i have a troub for that (don't get me started). So if youre saying Warden's need help on raids i don't have the experience to comment.

Sorano

11-08-2007, 01:18 AM

To be blunt what wardens need for ROK is/class respec The devs don't appear to be fixing broken stuff, yet alone improving what we have.

schottzilla

11-09-2007, 01:37 PM

[Removed for Content] my Warden NOW!!!! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

gatrm

11-09-2007, 05:51 PM

It annoys me when I see people complaining about warden's healing capability in any situation- raid, group, or solo. In any size group from duo up to a raid, success is dependent on people/classes working well together and complementing one another. Yes, regens only heal AFTER wards/reactives, however they are fast casting and refresh quickly- Great for keeping the tank up while the shaman/clerics spells are refreshing and recasting. It is true, however that with the hate changes, many raid forces don't use that third healer, and wardens really don't have a place outside the MT group that another healer could not fill better. The other problem is that while some wardens have chosen to go with the classic caster/healer role, many have opted to go melee- and there is nothing in the way of class gear that benefits a melee warden.My suggestions are as follows. I am limiting my propositions to as few spells as possible, so this does not appear to be a class-revamp.1. The encounter root should debuff attack speed instead of agility. Allow the debuff portion to work on epics, and the root portion have no effect if epic.2. Primitive instinct should be a group buff. Add strength to it. (Might need to decrease the increased skills slightly to avoid it being overpowered- the dirge skills only gives around 28 at m1 I believe)3. Sandstorm should buff some form of uncontested avoidance (suggest block, since dirges buff parry) rather than defense.4. Protecting grove needs to be raid-wide, as description reads and aoe immune.5. I like the idea of thorns increasing hate- maybe a chance to proc, maybe 2.2 per minute or something to that effect. I would also add that it would be nice if either they did more damage, or could not be resisted. Warden's thorns are supposedly better than fury's, however fury hits encounter, so accounts for more damage)

MullenSkywatcher

11-10-2007, 02:26 AM

<cite>gatrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>It annoys me when I see people complaining about warden's healing capability in any situation- raid, group, or solo. In any size group from duo up to a raid, success is dependent on people/classes working well together and complementing one another. Yes, regens only heal AFTER wards/reactives, however they are fast casting and refresh quickly- Great for keeping the tank up while the shaman/clerics spells are refreshing and recasting. It is true, however that with the hate changes, many raid forces don't use that third healer, and wardens really don't have a place outside the MT group that another healer could not fill better. The other problem is that while some wardens have chosen to go with the classic caster/healer role, many have opted to go melee- and there is nothing in the way of class gear that benefits a melee warden.My suggestions are as follows. I am limiting my propositions to as few spells as possible, so this does not appear to be a class-revamp.1. The encounter root should debuff attack speed instead of agility. Allow the debuff portion to work on epics, and the root portion have no effect if epic.2. Primitive instinct should be a group buff. Add strength to it. (Might need to decrease the increased skills slightly to avoid it being overpowered- the dirge skills only gives around 28 at m1 I believe)3. Sandstorm should buff some form of uncontested avoidance (suggest block, since dirges buff parry) rather than defense.4. Protecting grove needs to be raid-wide, as description reads and aoe immune.5. I like the idea of thorns increasing hate- maybe a chance to proc, maybe 2.2 per minute or something to that effect. I would also add that it would be nice if either they did more damage, or could not be resisted. Warden's thorns are supposedly better than fury's, however fury hits encounter, so accounts for more damage)</blockquote>These are all well thought out, good suggestions. However, since the NDA has lifted, I can tell you that you wont get any of them <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The upgrade to the tree is a little healing fairy that I believe is raid wide, however is NOT aoe immune. More of the same for us I'm afraid. Racial abilities are revamped, as well as 40 more AA to spend. Caveat Emptor.

Kri

11-12-2007, 12:56 PM

Yeah, the Fairy is made out of tissue paper and flutters around more than it actually heals.

eclipse25

11-13-2007, 06:50 AM

Yeah it would of been nice if they gave us something more useful than a another healing pet that dies as soon as a mob looks at it.However at least it looks cute<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />