Negative Fame

[Aerlyn]

The idea of negative fame occurred to me.  In order to explain how it works, let's first take a look at the current system:A player creates a character called NewGuy and levels up to 10.  NewGuy has 0 fame and no title.  Another player has a character called Twinkie, who is level 14 and has been pvping in tier 2 for a little while.  Twinkie has, let's say, 10 fame and a title of Hunter.If Twinkie kills NewGuy, then Twinkie gains 1 fame and (I assume) NewGuy loses 0 fame because he is already at the minimum.  Let's say Twinkie kills NewGuy 9 more times in 30 minute intervals.  Twinkie now has 20 fame and a title of Slayer, whereas NewGuy still has 0 fame and no title.Now let's suppose that we introduce the concept of Negative Fame.  Let's look at the same scenario again.NewGuy starts with 0 fame and no title.Twinkie has 10 fame and a Hunter title.If Twinkie kills NewGuy, then Twinkie gains 1 fame and NewGuy loses 1 fame.  Twinkie now has 11 fame and NewGuy has -1 fame.  Let's say Twinkie kills NewGuy 4 more times in 30 minute intervals, so Twinkie now has 15 fame and NewGuy has -5 fame and has gained the title of "Non-Combatant".Now, if Twinkie continues to kill NewGuy, he will gain no fame from it.  Additionally, we don't want to punish NewGuy just for being killed over and over, so let's say that if NewGuy kills someone, then his fame gets reset back to 0, he loses the "Non-Combatant" title, and he gains fame from the kill.

[Zaci]

Hows about the devs fix some of the completely broke crap before working to implement pointless [Removed for Content]~

[Aerlyn]

<cite>Zaci@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hows about the devs fix some of the completely broke crap before working to implement pointless [I cannot control my vocabulary]~</blockquote>Well, my thought here was to deter people from repeatedly killing new characters, since there seems to be a lot of posts complaining about that..  It's just an idea.  It may not be a good idea.  I'm not even sure that I agree with it, but it occurred to me and I thought I'd post it so people could discuss it if they thought it was worth discussing.What is some of the "completely broke crap" that you feel needs such immediate attention?  Oh well, thanks for the input.

[ladyvengeance]

<p>I have 2 champions and a couple of slayers, and I could care less about fame. I'd love it if they'd remove it completely. I care more about faction than a stupid title. </p><p>What I would love to see (someone suggested this earlier) is negative fame titles for the gankers who run away from a fight that THEY start. They'll start a fight with me, realize that they can't win, and then run away. I'd love it if they lost fame for running away, and had fame titles like "Coward of Queynos" or "Wuss of Freeport". </p>

[IcterusGalbula]

<p>I like the idea.  Maybe when you level you go back to 0 fame if you had negative fame before you leveled.</p>

[Aerlyn]

<cite>IcterusGalbula wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I like the idea.  Maybe when you level you go back to 0 fame if you had negative fame before you leveled.</p></blockquote>I was thinking the same thing.  A person shouldn't be able to keep negative fame in order to be an unattractive target indefinitely.

[Tarlok]

<p>The idea is good on paper but in prcatice there would have to be reasonable limits to how negative your char's fame/infamy could be pushed.</p><p> You don't need some title to be an unatractive target.  There are already ways in game to do do that.</p>

[Aerlyn]

<cite>Tarlok wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The idea is good on paper but in prcatice there would have to be reasonable limits to how negative your char's fame/infamy could be pushed.</p></blockquote>That's why I mentioned that if NewGuy were to kill anyone, then his fame should be reset to 0.  This allows him to start pvping without being discouraged at having a negative fame to start with and it also allows him to become a worth-while target as soon as he starts pvping.

[Tarlok]

<p>More of what I was getting at is the gank factor that could be incorporated into a negative system.  Example, level 14 ranger really hates such and such level 10 new guy, he then goes about killing him as many times as possible to give a huge - to new guy's infamy.</p><p> I got you now, it resets to 0 no matter now much you have, in that case it could work.</p>

[Norrsken]

Interresting idea. Make the system only valid to a max level, ie 30 or something and we're talking. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rob626]

This is a really well thought out proposal. I like it! It even scales.... Knucklehead Joe kills 14 people, gets 14 fame units but then has a REALLY bad streak... loses the next 15 fights. He's now -1 fame unit. If he is that bad, then he probably can use the Noncombatant title as a break. It won't stop people from harvesting noobs, but it might decrease it some and let them initiate more fights on their terms. Majo, 70 Guardian of Venekor

[Zaci]

Hmmm, broken things.......... Dirge Charm +Evac, or Charm+Under 50% so no credit. Minimizing actually working. Exiles still cant finish claymore afaik. If im mentored I can attack back if I am attacked. It is etremely easy to pull people out of immunity. And that is a small list.

[Aerlyn]

<cite>Zaci@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm, broken things.......... Dirge Charm +Evac, or Charm+Under 50% so no credit. Minimizing actually working. Exiles still cant finish claymore afaik. If im mentored I can attack back if I am attacked. It is etremely easy to pull people out of immunity. And that is a small list.</blockquote>Ok, great.  Maybe you should put together your comments (perhaps along with a an argument to help explain your opinion) in a thread that discusses those topics or, if one doesn't exist, create one.You might say "these things have already been brought up before and no one has done anything about them."  Well, I don't know what to tell you.  Some of those topics seem to have a grey area, such as being able to attack back while mentored.  Not to get into that topic here, but it seems to me that they would have to adjust the way that they scale characters down for mentoring in order for it to be more fair, otherwise I can imagine people would try to exploit mentoring in pvp.  The point is, while you may feel that it's something that needs to be corrected, other people might not, or there may be other more complicated aspects of the problem that prevent it from being corrected.Regardless, I'm not going to presume to tell the development team how to prioritize their tasks.  They are the ones who would know what the technical challenges behind some of those changes are, not us, and they should also have an idea of how much of the the player-base those issues affect.Furthermore, I'm not going to presume that I know how the workload is distributed among their team.  Not every task is a "developer" task.  I'm sure that some issues are best addressed by content designers (I'm not sure what their title would be, but essentially the people who design quests and such), user interface designers/developers, game mechanics designers/developers, graphics designers/developers, etc.  So, for instance, the fact that Exiles can't finish the claymore quest might be a task for a content designer, or maybe it's a task for a game mechanics developer.  That's for the EQ2 project team to determine.This reminds me of some rediculous comments that I saw on the pvp servers surrounding SOE's public messages regarding the Legends of Norath card game tournament.  People kept saying "We don't care about the card game, make more pvp events!"  I think those comments are rediculous because I'm willing to bet that the team that put together LoN and organized the tournament is a completely separate team from the EQ2 project team.  I'm sure that the LoN tournament took away little or no time from the EQ2 project team.

[greenmantle]

<cite>Aerlyn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea of negative fame occurred to me.  In order to explain how it works, let's first take a look at the current system:A player creates a character called NewGuy and levels up to 10.  NewGuy has 0 fame and no title.  Another player has a character called Twinkie, who is level 14 and has been pvping in tier 2 for a little while.  Twinkie has, let's say, 10 fame and a title of Hunter.If Twinkie kills NewGuy, then Twinkie gains 1 fame and (I assume) NewGuy loses 0 fame because he is already at the minimum.  Let's say Twinkie kills NewGuy 9 more times in 30 minute intervals.  Twinkie now has 20 fame and a title of Slayer, whereas NewGuy still has 0 fame and no title.Now let's suppose that we introduce the concept of Negative Fame.  Let's look at the same scenario again.NewGuy starts with 0 fame and no title.Twinkie has 10 fame and a Hunter title.If Twinkie kills NewGuy, then Twinkie gains 1 fame and NewGuy loses 1 fame.  Twinkie now has 11 fame and NewGuy has -1 fame.  Let's say Twinkie kills NewGuy 4 more times in 30 minute intervals, so Twinkie now has 15 fame and NewGuy has -5 fame and has gained the title of "Non-Combatant".Now, if Twinkie continues to kill NewGuy, he will gain no fame from it.  Additionally, we don't want to punish NewGuy just for being killed over and over, so let's say that if NewGuy kills someone, then his fame gets reset back to 0, he loses the "Non-Combatant" title, and he gains fame from the kill.</blockquote>Simple system, twink kills newbie once, get reward, kills them a second time, gets nothing, kills they 3rd 4th.... loses  faction and fame equivelent to the reward from the kill. After all if twinkie is killing newbie over and over jus to be a pain in the vocabulary he deserves the penalty not the newb. Perhaps you could have a new title for when the twink hits negative hmm say Looser.

[Snowlywhite]

dude... noone kills lowbies for title... or too few... when you want me to have 600 kills at lvl 20 to get the pvp gear... guess why I'm killing everyone around...I got 31k now at lvl 32 and feel I'm fine... so I pick my fights more carefully. But before? Heck... jump into that group as solo, being fully aware I'm gonna die no matter how good geared I was... why? Because maybe I could get 1 or 2 folks and get some faction in the process...

[Norrsken]

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>dude... noone kills lowbies for title... or too few... when you want me to have 600 kills at lvl 20 to get the pvp gear... guess why I'm killing everyone around...</blockquote>then why do we have dreadnaught lvl 14s? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ones that have seemingly no skill at all at that.

[Aerlyn]

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>dude... noone kills lowbies for title... or too few... when you want me to have 600 kills at lvl 20 to get the pvp gear... guess why I'm killing everyone around...I got 31k now at lvl 32 and feel I'm fine... so I pick my fights more carefully. But before? Heck... jump into that group as solo, being fully aware I'm gonna die no matter how good geared I was... why? Because maybe I could get 1 or 2 folks and get some faction in the process...</blockquote>Good point.  Then maybe someone shouldn't get faction from those kills either.  Go find a real target to fight.

[ladyvengeance]

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>dude... noone kills lowbies for title... or too few... when you want me to have 600 kills at lvl 20 to get the pvp gear... guess why I'm killing everyone around...I got 31k now at lvl 32 and feel I'm fine... so I pick my fights more carefully. But before? Heck... jump into that group as solo, being fully aware I'm gonna die no matter how good geared I was... why? Because maybe I could get 1 or 2 folks and get some faction in the process...</blockquote><p>Yep, that's exactly what I would do. Take my mage into the ruins and go up against a group of 6. I'd kill 1 or 2 of them, then go back and get the others. Rinse and repeat. I would actually prefer not to have a title during low levels because it scares people away. It took me about 600 kills to get the level 20 pvp gear. </p><p>I've also been wondering something......at level 70, how much faction do you get per kill? Is it the same amount at level 20? (which is 35 plus the token you get which is about 5 faction each I think).</p>

[Snowlywhite]

<cite>Aerlyn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>dude... noone kills lowbies for title... or too few... when you want me to have 600 kills at lvl 20 to get the pvp gear... guess why I'm killing everyone around...I got 31k now at lvl 32 and feel I'm fine... so I pick my fights more carefully. But before? Heck... jump into that group as solo, being fully aware I'm gonna die no matter how good geared I was... why? Because maybe I could get 1 or 2 folks and get some faction in the process...</blockquote>Good point.  Then maybe someone shouldn't get faction from those kills either.  Go find a real target to fight.</blockquote>no... the faction requests are already absurdly high... took me over 100-120 hours of pvp(not of gameplay) to get those. Ok, as soloer... prolly in a group would be faster. That, on top of the fact t2 pvp is so absurdly boring...Fix the faction requirments abit, take in account that ppl. will want to leave t3 with a reserve of faction since t4-t5 doesn't exactly abund in pvp, and beside the far and few lvl 14 dreads the grief would be much lower. Make it so, if you have xp lock(90% do anyway) and you try to keep 1.5aa per lvl all the time, while questing to be able to keep your faction requirments in check too(you'll inevitably pvp while you quest).