Miracles in PVP Combat - interesting screenshot [Archive]

Harbing

10-23-2007, 03:41 AM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why are miracles in PVP?!?! Lets start off with this screen:<img src="http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4518/punkkilledvr8.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="348" height="208" />So I say cool get the chest go to mistmoore catacombs. I see this BRIGAND is following me so I say screw it I'll give him another fight even though he is on my recent list... I don't teleport away. I am a WARLOCK these are my SPELLS:Aura of PainApocalypseThwartThis BRIGAND somehow uses a miracle to REFLECT ALL of my spells back on to me:<img src="http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3928/punkmiraclefv6.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="336" height="970" />Why can a brigand sit there and do all of his attacks and reflect ALL of my spells back? How the HELL do you kill someone like that. More importantly why are ANY miracles in PVP? Dhye</blockquote>also interesting, he seem to have mezzed you (Kaimera awakens Dhye); Brigs dont have a mezz. You sure he was alone ?

yellowbelly08

10-23-2007, 06:21 AM

I agree with the OP, miracles are lame in pvp...i dont use them, prolly why ill never see overseer or even get master back. Tired of these master cow herders tbh.Galoro

Amphibia

10-23-2007, 07:41 AM

A real shame miracles are allowed in PvP. They were meant for PvE, not this...

Wytie

10-23-2007, 09:53 AM

umm what mircle was it? Never heard of one that could do that?

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 10:47 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>A real shame miracles are allowed in PvP. They were meant for PvE, not this... </blockquote>and yet they have that little "pvp" check box. It's almost like the devs THOUGHT about it.. and designed pvp specific effects for the miracles. OMG! (literally)I had some idiot log over to the evil side on nagafen, and ask me for a "fair 1v1", because i had pumiced him. I'm a troub.. attacking an illusionist.. half my spells are going to bounce off, and chances are i'm only getting like 3 of them off. So he logs over all butsore telling me what a cheap jerk i am, ect.. "what will you do when you run out of status points", blah blah blah. Folks. this is pvp. It's not the New Testament According To Carealot. Kill, or be killed. Use what you can, and win.Miracles are fine in pvp.. just make sure you have your own ready. to the OP : When you saw the reflects coming through, did you try a pumice stone on him to try to dispell it?

10-23-2007, 11:06 AM

<cite>Harbinger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why are miracles in PVP?!?! Lets start off with this screen:<img src="http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4518/punkkilledvr8.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="348" height="208" />So I say cool get the chest go to mistmoore catacombs. I see this BRIGAND is following me so I say screw it I'll give him another fight even though he is on my recent list... I don't teleport away. I am a WARLOCK these are my SPELLS:Aura of PainApocalypseThwartThis BRIGAND somehow uses a miracle to REFLECT ALL of my spells back on to me:<img src="http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3928/punkmiraclefv6.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="336" height="970" />Why can a brigand sit there and do all of his attacks and reflect ALL of my spells back? How the HELL do you kill someone like that. More importantly why are ANY miracles in PVP? Dhye</blockquote>also interesting, he seem to have mezzed you (Kaimera awakens Dhye); Brigs dont have a mezz. You sure he was alone ?</blockquote>It's called "Bottle of Ether" a 7sec mez item look em up on broker. He tried to use it in the 2nd fight but I resisted it.Miracles straight don't belong in PVP. Reflect 100% of spells.... whatever that is, its completely broken. It needs about 2 spell limit or stun/stifle/root the caster.Dhye

MaCloud1032

10-23-2007, 11:13 AM

LOL let me ask this how many of you remember them pre nerf? I do. I remember lv 40s running around EL and using them on 70s. Zeks retrubution a auto rez with a 6k ae and a 3k dot. rift from below a 7k AE. Tunar a30 sec stun/stifle/root/daze/mez. There were a lot of people complaining when the went live. Suck it up they have been nerfed and we have all gotten it before.

10-23-2007, 11:28 AM

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL let me ask this how many of you remember them pre nerf? I do. I remember lv 40s running around EL and using them on 70s. Zeks retrubution a auto rez with a 6k ae and a 3k dot. rift from below a 7k AE. Tunar a30 sec stun/stifle/root/daze/mez. There were a lot of people complaining when the went live. Suck it up they have been nerfed and we have all gotten it before.</blockquote>You sound like somone that uses miracles in every single fight. The difference with the nerfed miracles is they don't render your opponents completely useless. They still should be removed from the game tho. I guess some people don't wanna play a game that is actually fun where they have to work for their kills, they want to just push one button for a guaranteed victory.

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 11:38 AM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You sound like somone that uses miracles in every single fight. The difference with the nerfed miracles is they don't render your opponents completely useless. They still should be removed from the game tho. I guess some people don't wanna play a game that is actually fun where they have to work for their kills, they want to just push one button for a guaranteed victory.</blockquote>I guess some folks just prefer things to get nerfed/removed rather than having to counter it, or come up with a strategy to defeat it.It's ok, Dhye.. we get that a lot around here, you're not alone.

Amphibia

10-23-2007, 11:46 AM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>A real shame miracles are allowed in PvP. They were meant for PvE, not this... </blockquote>and yet they have that little "pvp" check box. It's almost like the devs THOUGHT about it.. and designed pvp specific effects for the miracles. OMG! (literally)I had some idiot log over to the evil side on nagafen, and ask me for a "fair 1v1", because i had pumiced him. I'm a troub.. attacking an illusionist.. half my spells are going to bounce off, and chances are i'm only getting like 3 of them off. So he logs over all butsore telling me what a cheap jerk i am, ect.. "what will you do when you run out of status points", blah blah blah. Folks. this is pvp. It's not the New Testament According To Carealot. Kill, or be killed. Use what you can, and win.Miracles are fine in pvp.. just make sure you have your own ready. to the OP : When you saw the reflects coming through, did you try a pumice stone on him to try to dispell it?</blockquote>When the miracles were introduced last year, they hit with full force. Massively overpowered. There was one in particular, called "Wrath of the Burning Prince" or something like that which could oneshot a level 70. And one called "Tunare's entanglement" that would stifle an entire group for a full minute, making it easy to pick one off at a time and kill them all without any resistance at all. There were also several miracles on the Freeport side as well, though I don't remember the names anymore.This went on for quite some time, but eventually they were toned down. Obviously they were not originally designed for PvP. I don't care about your little story about some disagreement you had with a lowbie illusionist on your lowbie troubador, tbh. If you want to use miracles in PvP, go ahead. But know that a lot of people consider it rather lame, espesially in a 1v1. Using one in situations like that can also indicate lack of skill and knownledge of your class.... :pBut I guess it is a personal choice. Some of us would never bring a gun to fist fight, even though they are available. It's a matter of honor. But some people couldn't give a rats [I cannot control my vocabulary] about trust and honor, and just bring the gun anyway. In a computer game like this, the consequences aren't really comparable to anything in real life, so you can of course choose to play it however you want. But how about we call the spade by its real name, ok?

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 11:55 AM

Absolutely, call a spade what it is.The guy standing at the end of the fight. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The bottom line is that they ARE designed and implimented for pvp. 1 hour recasts, 2 charges then you have to re-charge.. and you have to go back home to do it.No.. not overpowered.btw.. there are no fistfights in pvp. There are fights.. you want to concern yourself with how you win, then focus on people who hack, people who use means outside the game system to cheat to win. You want to try to call people who play the game to the best of their abilities and within the rules dishonorable... well go ahead.Guess you need some comfort at the revive point, and if insulting those that beat you gives you that comfort than so be it. /hug

yellowbelly08

10-23-2007, 11:59 AM

The pink froggy makes sense as usual, one of the best posts ive read. Yep he is right its ALL ABOUT THE HONOUR. Keep your titles we will keep our honour and respect.Galoro

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 12:01 PM

<cite>yellowbelly08 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The pink froggy makes sense as usual, one of the best posts ive read. Yep he is right its ALL ABOUT THE HONOUR. Keep your titles we will keep our honour and respect.Galoro</blockquote>Good luck with that. I'll respect the status, faction, fame, and tokens that I get from playing the game the best I can. You can cuddle at the revive points and honour each other all you like.<---- Pirate

Amphibia

10-23-2007, 12:09 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Absolutely, call a spade what it is.The guy standing at the end of the fight. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />The bottom line is that they ARE designed and implimented for pvp. 1 hour recasts, 2 charges then you have to re-charge.. and you have to go back home to do it.No.. not overpowered.btw.. there are no fistfights in pvp. There are fights.. you want to concern yourself with how you win, then focus on people who hack, people who use means outside the game system to cheat to win. You want to try to call people who play the game to the best of their abilities and within the rules dishonorable... well go ahead.Guess you need some comfort at the revive point, and if insulting those that beat you gives you that comfort than so be it. /hug</blockquote>They were actually massively overpowered, because th.... no, nevermind. Hehe, well.... I guess you win at forum PvP. When I read your posts, I think to myself that maybe level locking isn't such a bad thing after all. Then I'll never have to play in the same tier as you. Cheers!

yellowbelly08

10-23-2007, 12:19 PM

No problem at all Ogre. I am now beggining to realise why you like miracles so much tho...you want to fill that 2nd hotbar...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Galoro

MaCloud1032

10-23-2007, 12:24 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL let me ask this how many of you remember them pre nerf? I do. I remember lv 40s running around EL and using them on 70s. Zeks retrubution a auto rez with a 6k ae and a 3k dot. rift from below a 7k AE. Tunar a30 sec stun/stifle/root/daze/mez. There were a lot of people complaining when the went live. Suck it up they have been nerfed and we have all gotten it before.</blockquote>You sound like somone that uses miracles in every single fight. The difference with the nerfed miracles is they don't render your opponents completely useless. They still should be removed from the game tho. I guess some people don't wanna play a game that is actually fun where they have to work for their kills, they want to just push one button for a guaranteed victory.</blockquote>Actualy not i can count the number of times i used a mirical on one hand. The first time i fought a group of DoM and a conj plane shifted his pet. First time I ever saw this and no one in vent knew what it was and i poped agod power thinking i got godded. Next time i was hit by a x2 and popped a god and took out 6 of them before i died.On the other hand i cant count the number used on me. There is a vid ofa monk using 2 on me and he sill died right after i diedIam simply saying this its like every other part of the game learn to deal with it. I can PT some one out when there at 505 health. Rangers can kill my mage before i turn around and nolonger in combat. Gaurds taunt and healers heal. All aspects of the game we have to deal with. Personaly i feel good when they use a god on me because that was the only way they were goign to get me.There are so many other problems right now with pvp and this was brough up a yearago and ended ayear agao.

10-23-2007, 12:36 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You sound like somone that uses miracles in every single fight. The difference with the nerfed miracles is they don't render your opponents completely useless. They still should be removed from the game tho. I guess some people don't wanna play a game that is actually fun where they have to work for their kills, they want to just push one button for a guaranteed victory.</blockquote>I guess some folks just prefer things to get nerfed/removed rather than having to counter it, or come up with a strategy to defeat it.It's ok, Dhye.. we get that a lot around here, you're not alone.</blockquote>Someone told me it is a weapon that you activate to reflect 100% of spells for 2 minutes. There is no possible way to beat a brigand with unbreakable root and that kind of DPS when he reflects 100% of your spells. What is your strategy all mighty level locker?

Bloodfa

10-23-2007, 12:41 PM

As long as they're in-game, they will be used, just like overpowered spells and AP abilities. Half call them cheap, half call them a tool to be utilized. The cost of them is rather inexpensive, especially to a 70, who can pull enough deity faction sacrificing drops from one run of Acadechism, and they are available to anyone of the right alignment. Does it suck when it happens to you? Yep. Does it help you get in one last payback kill on that raid that the enemy called in to wipe your group because their highly titled full group of 70's lost repeatly to a group of mostly 70 hunters and slayers? Hell yeah. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Would that be called unfair usage? What's fair in PvP? Using a mega-buff just before entering combat with a superior force? Or a bunch of Dreads & Generals calling for a group of 60's and untouchable 50's for backup after they got the shock of the week from the unknowns? Six of one, half dozen of the other. Variety, the spice of life ... it keeps things interesting. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Bloodfa

10-23-2007, 12:43 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You sound like somone that uses miracles in every single fight. The difference with the nerfed miracles is they don't render your opponents completely useless. They still should be removed from the game tho. I guess some people don't wanna play a game that is actually fun where they have to work for their kills, they want to just push one button for a guaranteed victory.</blockquote>I guess some folks just prefer things to get nerfed/removed rather than having to counter it, or come up with a strategy to defeat it.It's ok, Dhye.. we get that a lot around here, you're not alone.</blockquote>Someone told me it is a weapon that you activate to reflect 100% of spells for 2 minutes. There is no possible way to beat a brigand with unbreakable root and that kind of DPS when he reflects 100% of your spells. What is your strategy all mighty level locker?</blockquote>If you find out what weapon that is, could you please link it? Seriously. I'd love to have something like that.

Greenion

10-23-2007, 01:10 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>yellowbelly08 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The pink froggy makes sense as usual, one of the best posts ive read. Yep he is right its ALL ABOUT THE HONOUR. Keep your titles we will keep our honour and respect.Galoro</blockquote>Good luck with that. I'll respect the status, faction, fame, and tokens that I get from playing the game the best I can. You can cuddle at the revive points and honour each other all you like.<---- Pirate</blockquote>/znikrz in rl.

Zexxii

10-23-2007, 01:37 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why are miracles in PVP?!?! Lets start off with this screen:<img src="http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4518/punkkilledvr8.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="348" height="208" />Dhye</blockquote>i'm just sad to see the new teleport macro <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> the other was infinitely more entertaining <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />anywho, keep going through your logs, see if you can catch what he activated, and if it IS a weapon that does what was said, let's please see what that is and get it to the devs, they most definitely need to nerf it, there's no accounting for folk's taste using a CLEARLY overpowered item because they want your fame, much akin to the folks who used the pre-nerf God abilities, (and even post God abilities imo)

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 02:19 PM

<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><---- Pirate</blockquote>/znikrz in rl.</blockquote>nah.. but in game I am.irl i'm a ninja.

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 02:22 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone told me it is a weapon that you activate to reflect 100% of spells for 2 minutes. There is no possible way to beat a brigand with unbreakable root and that kind of DPS when he reflects 100% of your spells. What is your strategy all mighty level locker?</blockquote>An unbreakable root? You carry cure potions? Freedom of movement, sprint?How do you think most melee classes beat a sorcerer with manashield? You have to wait until it's down, and keep em busy until then.I too am interested in the results of your log, to see what it is that they used.

Zexxii

10-23-2007, 02:37 PM

/breathe dhye it'll be ok, we can port Bozidar with the old macro <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> did he go exile? or is he exile?<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Tunare%27s_Lifeshield" target="_blank"></a>

Mildavyn

10-23-2007, 02:45 PM

What was the old macro?

10-23-2007, 03:00 PM

That deff needs to be fixed to 3 reflects MAX or not allow the person using it to cast CA/Spells. What a load of sht. That is more overpowered than bristlebane's mez/stifle/stun/fear/root cure and immunity for 1minute. Would hate to be an enchanter or troub.Just remove deity miracles from PVP they completely take out any skill needed to kill people.

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 03:07 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That deff needs to be fixed to 3 reflects MAX or not allow the person using it to cast CA/Spells. What a load of sht. That is more overpowered than bristlebane's mez/stifle/stun/fear/root cure and immunity for 1minute. Would hate to be an enchanter or troub.Just remove deity miracles from PVP they completely take out any skill needed to kill people.</blockquote>See, now you're talking about modifying a god ability to be less overpowered in PvP. It seems, based on your report, that on the Horseshtometer it's a few hash marks on the side of unbelieveable bull... So if that's the PVE effect.. what's the PVP version look like? Let's get the facts, first. Anyone have a screeny of what the pvp effect of that is? If something is ridiculous the way that Retribution was.. then so be it. let's make it a viable "miracle" in pvp, rather than someting plain old stupid.but i'm sorry that you're buttsore about miracles and blessings. They're part of the game. I don't see why that whole "I'm honorable and you have no skill" thing isn't comforting you more, it seemed to be a big morale booster earlier in the thread <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> now you're all back to nerfing the whole world again because you can't adapt.

10-23-2007, 03:13 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>That deff needs to be fixed to 3 reflects MAX or not allow the person using it to cast CA/Spells. What a load of sht. That is more overpowered than bristlebane's mez/stifle/stun/fear/root cure and immunity for 1minute. Would hate to be an enchanter or troub.Just remove deity miracles from PVP they completely take out any skill needed to kill people.</blockquote>See, now you're talking about modifying a god ability to be less overpowered in PvP. It seems, based on your report, that on the Horseshtometer it's a few hash marks on the side of unbelieveable bull... So if that's the PVE effect.. what's the PVP version look like? Let's get the facts, first. Anyone have a screeny of what the pvp effect of that is? If something is ridiculous the way that Retribution was.. then so be it. let's make it a viable "miracle" in pvp, rather than someting plain old stupid.but i'm sorry that you're buttsore about miracles and blessings. They're part of the game. I don't see why that whole "I'm honorable and you have no skill" thing isn't comforting you more, it seemed to be a big morale booster earlier in the thread <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> now you're all back to nerfing the whole world again because you can't adapt.</blockquote>As a caster you cannot "adapt" to 10 reflected spells.Removing miracles from PVP combat is not 'nerfing the whole world" unless miracles are your whole world.

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 03:17 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a caster you cannot "adapt" to 10 reflected spells.Removing miracles from PVP combat is not 'nerfing the whole world" unless miracles are your whole world.</blockquote>You can adapt to it, you just refuse to try because crying nerf is easier.

Bloodfa

10-23-2007, 03:26 PM

Does anybody ever just accept a death and then go back for a payback kill anymore, or is it just the old men like me? Regardless of whether something is overpowered or not, I mean. At best it'll be done to you twice. Then they're out of that bag of tricks until they go home. Doesn't anybody just kill for the sake of killing anymore?Wow, I'm starting to sound like John Wayne Gacy. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

10-23-2007, 04:58 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a caster you cannot "adapt" to 10 reflected spells.Removing miracles from PVP combat is not 'nerfing the whole world" unless miracles are your whole world.</blockquote>You can adapt to it, you just refuse to try because crying nerf is easier.</blockquote>Adapt... like the new players you admitted to grief here <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=388237#4384490" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=388237#4384490</a>You are childish and I would appreciate it if you would leave this convo to the grown-ups. Thanks

Bozidar

10-23-2007, 05:04 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a caster you cannot "adapt" to 10 reflected spells.Removing miracles from PVP combat is not 'nerfing the whole world" unless miracles are your whole world.</blockquote>You can adapt to it, you just refuse to try because crying nerf is easier.</blockquote>Adapt... like the new players you admitted to grief here <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=388237#4384490" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=388237#4384490</a>You are childish and I would appreciate it if you would leave this convo to the grown-ups. Thanks</blockquote>Might want to read that thread again. It was a typo.. i meant to say (and corrected) that they weren't newbies. Heck, it was in STORMHOLD, and they had zerged at me a number of times.Sorry to burst your bubble, pops. Why dont you just go back to the bench in the park with Ole' Willie and you can gripe some more about how the world has gone to poop, k? You're good at it.. just go with what you're good at.

10-24-2007, 02:17 AM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a caster you cannot "adapt" to 10 reflected spells.Removing miracles from PVP combat is not 'nerfing the whole world" unless miracles are your whole world.</blockquote>You can adapt to it, you just refuse to try because crying nerf is easier.</blockquote>Adapt... like the new players you admitted to grief here <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=388237#4384490" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=388237#4384490</a>You are childish and I would appreciate it if you would leave this convo to the grown-ups. Thanks</blockquote>Might want to read that thread again. It was a typo.. i meant to say (and corrected) that they weren't newbies. Heck, it was in STORMHOLD, and they had zerged at me a number of times.Sorry to burst your bubble, pops. Why dont you just go back to the bench in the park with Ole' Willie and you can gripe some more about how the world has gone to poop, k? You're good at it.. just go with what you're good at.</blockquote>You aren't high enough on any of your characters to even be affected by miracles. Any opinion you may have means nothing on the subject. Seriously why are you even posting in this thread?

G1Joe

10-24-2007, 03:53 AM

OP warlock or not miracles need to be removed from pvp you all know its trueLets talk about removing warlocks from the game tho when a caster can tank maestro and vikomt you know things are out of hand <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Necodem

10-24-2007, 08:32 AM

Miracles and Blessings should be disable while in pvp. Even if you can only use them 1 per hour, I hate those easy spell.

Norrsken

10-24-2007, 10:30 AM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a caster you cannot "adapt" to 10 reflected spells.Removing miracles from PVP combat is not 'nerfing the whole world" unless miracles are your whole world.</blockquote>You can adapt to it, you just refuse to try because crying nerf is easier.</blockquote>In all honesty though, when miracles first hit the pvp servers, pvp became a contest of what group hit their miracles first. they were brought more in line and we now have miracles that wont automagically win fights for you, which is good. If a miracle is a 2 minute 100% spell reflect, that is death to basically any mage. Try surviving for 2 minutes without any means of doinga nything th your enemy on a caster.

Dracot

10-24-2007, 01:42 PM

<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote>interesting counter to manashield i'd say.</blockquote>nah the best to date of the interesting miracles was when necros could implode a charmed pet. You could go out do the Cazic thule line and get the charm spell. Spent about a month charming Q's and simply imploding them until sony figured this one out and removed the ability to implode charmed pets. But [Removed for Content] that was a necros day to shine.

Zexxii

10-24-2007, 01:45 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does anybody ever just accept a death and then go back for a payback kill anymore, or is it just the old men like me? Regardless of whether something is overpowered or not, I mean. At best it'll be done to you twice. Then they're out of that bag of tricks until they go home. Doesn't anybody just kill for the sake of killing anymore?Wow, I'm starting to sound like John Wayne Gacy. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>that's just it, 1 vs 2, they came back with miracles in hand cause they couldn't accept their death, it was their payback methodit's crap

Dracot

10-24-2007, 01:49 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Someone told me it is a weapon that you activate to reflect 100% of spells for 2 minutes. There is no possible way to beat a brigand with unbreakable root and that kind of DPS when he reflects 100% of your spells. What is your strategy all mighty level locker?</blockquote>An unbreakable root? You carry cure potions? Freedom of movement, sprint?How do you think most melee classes beat a sorcerer with manashield? You have to wait until it's down, and keep em busy until then.I too am interested in the results of your log, to see what it is that they used.</blockquote>That works great IF your a melee class, you can mitigate long enough to use all the pots. Try this when you die in 1 second or less. Oh but only Lord Locklvl knows all. You assume every clothy has manashield. Once I spent the time to cast the pot to lose root guess, what, IM dead. Meanwhile a fighter class or healer has plenty time to work it out.

Dracot

10-24-2007, 01:55 PM

<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a caster you cannot "adapt" to 10 reflected spells.Removing miracles from PVP combat is not 'nerfing the whole world" unless miracles are your whole world.</blockquote>You can adapt to it, you just refuse to try because crying nerf is easier.</blockquote>You really are clueless aren't you? Unlock and lvl a summoner or chanter class to 70 then preach til then your opinion is based on #'s and not facts, since you are inexperienced in the end game event. Simple as that your opinion does not matter, get it? You don't play at t7 you have no solid facts to stand on, nothing at all, your naive about the t7 game until you unlock and lvl up and experience the game. Really dude.....people try to get things looked at and all you do is come in and try to de-rail with your assumtpions, which sorry to tell you are NOT facts.

StrollingWolf

10-24-2007, 04:30 PM

Try to be more civil with each other. Telling people they're clueless, stupid or otherwise is not a good idea.

Hinosh

10-24-2007, 04:53 PM

Case 1: Player A fights against Mob B. Player A prays to his god for help before the fight. The god answers and strikes Mob B down with a bolt of divine lightning when Player A could have just beaten Mob B without using the miracle because the AI for the mobs is nowhere near as good as it could be. Player A wins.Case 2: Player A fights against Player B. Player A prays to his god for help before the fight. Even though Player A is several levels lower than Player B, the god doesn't interfere when Player A needs it the most. Player B wins.Two cases that don't make sense to me. Why should the gods be able to help when it's not nessessary but not be able to when it is?

Elephanton

10-24-2007, 04:54 PM

Miracles are generally fine in PVP (most are nerfed to the point of being useless).This particular Quellios miracle is a little OP and needs to be toned down for PVP (e.g. last only 10 sec in PVP).

Armironhead

10-24-2007, 04:56 PM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>A real shame miracles are allowed in PvP. They were meant for PvE, not this... </blockquote>Oh please, anybody can get miracles. The op can even get the very same miracles that were used against him by picking the same god that the brig used. The miracles are very costly to use since you have to burn significant numbers of items to gain enough faction to buy the end lvl spells. So since everybody can have them, and they are costly enough so as to prevent overuse, they are hardly game altering. The miracles are a fun addition to the game since they give you a reason to pick a god and work for him. Why shouldnt we be able to do that on the pvp servers? More to the point, how are the miracles different from any high lvl spell? When mana shield is popped I cant damage a caster -- so I have to adapt -- run around, get behind a rock and out last the spell. Here, the bridg used a miracle that did fuctionally the same thing for him. It was incumbent upon the op to respond - figure out some way of burning off the spell. That he didn't do so, should merely be a lesson to him as to how to better responnd the next time he is hit with the same spell, not a call for another nerf. After all, all of us non-casters had to learn how to deal with manashield -- its nice to see a caster get a taste of what that is like.

10-24-2007, 05:27 PM

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>A real shame miracles are allowed in PvP. They were meant for PvE, not this... </blockquote>Oh please, anybody can get miracles. The op can even get the very same miracles that were used against him by picking the same god that the brig used. The miracles are very costly to use since you have to burn significant numbers of items to gain enough faction to buy the end lvl spells. So since everybody can have them, and they are costly enough so as to prevent overuse, they are hardly game altering. The miracles are a fun addition to the game since they give you a reason to pick a god and work for him. Why shouldnt we be able to do that on the pvp servers? More to the point, how are the miracles different from any high lvl spell? When mana shield is popped I cant damage a caster -- so I have to adapt -- run around, get behind a rock and out last the spell. Here, the bridg used a miracle that did fuctionally the same thing for him. It was incumbent upon the op to respond - figure out some way of burning off the spell. That he didn't do so, should merely be a lesson to him as to how to better responnd the next time he is hit with the same spell, not a call for another nerf. After all, all of us non-casters had to learn how to deal with manashield -- its nice to see a caster get a taste of what that is like.</blockquote>Ok its settled. Make manashield not use the sorcerers power when they take damage, instead increase its duration to 1 minute and everytime you do damage to the sorcerer, it reflects that damage on to you. At least we are getting somewhere here.

10-24-2007, 05:36 PM

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Miracles are generally fine in PVP (most are nerfed to the point of being useless).This particular Quellios miracle is a little OP and needs to be toned down for PVP (e.g. last only 10 sec in PVP).</blockquote>What about bristlebane 1 min mez/stun/root/fear/stifle CURE then immunity? What if you are a chanter and people use this on you? Most deity blessing miracles are overpowered and need to be removed.Dhye

Brimestar

10-24-2007, 06:09 PM

<cite>Torrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd say suck it up and live with it. Is it fair that a caster can have enough ward items to take little damage on top of able to pop manashield to negate <ALL> damage while freely casting away at their target? Didn't think so.Besides look who you're fighting.. he does anything to win, you just happened to be too far from a Revive point so plan A) Zerging was out of the question which means plan B) Miracles.</blockquote>/nod I agree with Torrin

Greenion

10-24-2007, 06:30 PM

me too.edit> /offers op a tissue.

10-24-2007, 07:21 PM

<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote>me too.edit> /offers op a tissue.</blockquote>Wow thanks. If only I had one for everytime you cried on the forums about something then used 5 pages of posts to ask how it worked. The only difference is I know what I am talking about. Miracles allow people with no skill to completely decimate people that know what they are doing in PVP. Maybe thats why you like them soo much.

Vydar2

10-24-2007, 07:27 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote>me too.edit> /offers op a tissue.</blockquote>Wow thanks. If only I had one for everytime you cried on the forums about something then used 5 pages of posts to ask how it worked. The only difference is I know what I am talking about. Miracles allow people with no skill to completely decimate people that know what they are doing in PVP. Maybe thats why you like them soo much.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but a lot of Eq2 pvp is rock, paper, scissors.Cleric> ScoutDruid > SorcerorSorceror > Most scoutsYou're a warlock. You are the rock to melee classes's scissors.One pair of scissors brought a grenade. /shrugWarlocks who know what they're doing typically dominate melee classes, utterly and completely. Warlock is the new Brigand, in that it is the most OP class and has the best potential for killing so many other classes... Manashield, Focused Casting, Nullmail... all add up to one screwed melee'r. You SHOULD beat a Brigand. He came back with something that gave him a shot at beating you.Miracles are on a one HOUR reuse timer. It's not like you're encountering it every fight. You died. It happens. We all die.

Greenion

10-24-2007, 07:29 PM

yep, all those buttons take skillz to press.clearly, thou art teh skilld. because that particular button the other guy used to make teh skilld into teh killd isnt fair.edit>/tissue?

Norrsken

10-24-2007, 07:33 PM

<cite>Vydar2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote>me too.edit> /offers op a tissue.</blockquote>Wow thanks. If only I had one for everytime you cried on the forums about something then used 5 pages of posts to ask how it worked. The only difference is I know what I am talking about. Miracles allow people with no skill to completely decimate people that know what they are doing in PVP. Maybe thats why you like them soo much.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but a lot of Eq2 pvp is rock, paper, scissors.Cleric> ScoutDruid > SorcerorSorceror > Most scoutsYou're a warlock. You are the rock to melee classes's scissors.One pair of scissors brought a grenade. /shrugWarlocks who know what they're doing typically dominate melee classes, utterly and completely. Warlock is the new Brigand, in that it is the most OP class and has the best potential for killing so many other classes... Manashield, Focused Casting, Nullmail... all add up to one screwed melee'r. You SHOULD beat a Brigand. He came back with something that gave him a shot at beating you.Miracles are on a one HOUR reuse timer. It's not like you're encountering it every fight. You died. It happens. We all die. </blockquote>you are very wrong in the druid > sorc department though.And a well played scout in t7 can kill a well played inquisitor. Its gonna come close, very close. the way it ought to be. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />This isnt really a this class beats this class beats this class game. Most classes, if not all, can spec to make up for their weaknesses to be able to handle something that has a "natural" predisposition to exploit those weaknesses. The class wills till be very strong at what it does good, even if speccing to remedie its weaknesses, IE the sorceror manashield.

10-24-2007, 07:40 PM

He was the first brig to beat me in 1v1 in long long time because I didnt get manashield off in time and nullmail didnt make me dodge one attack while casting manashield. But I don't die often 1v1. Last person to beat me 1v1 was a bruiser that just outplayed me and that was few weeks ago. I didn't really lose to many 1v1s on my 70 Swash or Assassin either tho. Back to the point:A SHOT at beating me? With that Miracle he will NEVER lose to these classes and they will NEVER get away once engaged since he has many snares and stuns:illusionistcoercerwizardwarlocktroubconjurernecrof uryMost likely all other priests if using a mental breach poison. If only he had a warning... oh wait track. (This is not a brig/any other class nerf thread this is a what the hell are miracles doing in PVP thread)Lets just forget about this one overpowered example of a miracle for a minute and focus on all deity miracles and blessings. Explain why you would want them to stay in PVP combat.

Greenion

10-24-2007, 07:50 PM

Lets just forget about this one overpowered example of a miracle for a minute and focus on all deity miracles and blessings. Explain why you would want them to stay in PVP combat.because you are so skilld itd take a miracle to killd you obviously dood.

StrollingWolf

10-24-2007, 10:58 PM

/ahem <<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=388371#4387440" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">wonders if anyone read my previous post in this thread</a>>Save the PvP for in game please. If you're getting irritated with other posters, go find them in game and duke it out, that's what PvP is for, don't do it here.Discuss the topic, not try to jab at each other with words.Thanks.

Raznor2

10-25-2007, 07:04 AM

Part of what makes a player skillful is how well they understand the abilities that their own class has and the abilities that they can use beyond the skill set that their class has. This includes, potions, poisons, city merchant bought clickables, loot clickables, tinkered items, augments, god powers and anything else that can benefit them in combat. Another part of playing skillful pvp combat is understanding that you need to be prepared to recognize and deal with the unexpected that can come from someone using any of the previously mentioned tools. Too often I hear players talk about dirty or dishonorable tactics like using god powers or pumice stones, but what they're really angry about is losing a fight they felt they should have won because they were not prepared to deal with nor did they want to deal with someone using a tool beyond their class's skill set. Having abilites like god powers adds another dimension of challenge to pvp. Without items and abilities like this combat can become predictable. Take the OP's fight for example, say that there was no clickables or god powers in that situation. Then he would have the confidence to know that with the abilities he has as a warlock, against the class he was fighting, that the outcome would be favorable to him and in any subsequent encounter with that class he could follow the same tactics and likely come out victorious. But when you have the element of clickable items and god powers put into the fight he now has to be wary of anyone using that same ability against him. Having been burned by that ability before he'll be quicker to recognize and counter this tactic, especially against that particular player. The combat then becomes more intricate and the possiblities you have to consider expand signifigantly. This is the benefit of having god powers and other abilities beyond what your class comes with. Raithan

Amphibia

10-25-2007, 09:09 AM

<cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Part of what makes a player skillful is how well they understand the abilities that their own class has and the abilities that they can use beyond the skill set that their class has. This includes, potions, poisons, city merchant bought clickables, loot clickables, tinkered items, augments, god powers and anything else that can benefit them in combat. Another part of playing skillful pvp combat is understanding that you need to be prepared to recognize and deal with the unexpected that can come from someone using any of the previously mentioned tools. Too often I hear players talk about dirty or dishonorable tactics like using god powers or pumice stones, but what they're really angry about is losing a fight they felt they should have won because they were not prepared to deal with nor did they want to deal with someone using a tool beyond their class's skill set. Having abilites like god powers adds another dimension of challenge to pvp. Without items and abilities like this combat can become predictable. Take the OP's fight for example, say that there was no clickables or god powers in that situation. Then he would have the confidence to know that with the abilities he has as a warlock, against the class he was fighting, that the outcome would be favorable to him and in any subsequent encounter with that class he could follow the same tactics and likely come out victorious. But when you have the element of clickable items and god powers put into the fight he now has to be wary of anyone using that same ability against him. Having been burned by that ability before he'll be quicker to recognize and counter this tactic, especially against that particular player. The combat then becomes more intricate and the possiblities you have to consider expand signifigantly. This is the benefit of having god powers and other abilities beyond what your class comes with. Raithan</blockquote>I agree with all of this in essence, but only if the abilities that are being used are somehow possible to counter. If someone is using a god ability against a class that is unable to counter it, then recognizing it won't do much good - because you are still going to lose no matter what. Let me give you an example: A blessing called "Mischeif Maker". Dispels all control effects, and makes you immune to everything except charm for a full minute. Let's say I use this against a chanter, what is he supposed to do then? Without his control effects, he has nothing. It is a pure "I win"-button.

Greenion

10-25-2007, 09:11 AM

they have charm, which is their option to spec for or not.if they have chosen not to spec for it, then they have chosen unwisely.there is a counter for it you mentioned it yourself.

Amphibia

10-25-2007, 09:24 AM

Greenion, no offense but when are you gonna start checking your facts before you reply to posts? First off, only coercers and troubadors gets charm as a skill. Other classes that rely heavily on control effects will have to do without that. Oh, did you mean the AA charm for illusionists? There is just one little problem with that - it only lasts for 16 seconds. The blessing lasts for a full minute. Imagine that... *sigh*

Greenion

10-25-2007, 09:33 AM

illusionists can get charm, i play one.and...there are many skills that have no complete counter.manashield lasts for thirty seconds, but my stun(s) do not.and they dont even consider that miraculous.

Amphibia

10-25-2007, 09:43 AM

What did I just say about that charm ability? *sigh*And as a high DPS class, it should be possible for you to burn through that manashield faster than 30 seconds. It costs power - and when the power is gone, so is the shield. Sure, sometimes you're not gonna make it before you die, but that is the whole idea. Sorcerers are no longer "free kills", nor should they be.

10-25-2007, 10:52 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>What did I just say about that charm ability? *sigh*And as a high DPS class, it should be possible for you to burn through that manashield faster than 30 seconds. It costs power - and when the power is gone, so is the shield. Sure, sometimes you're not gonna make it before you die, but that is the whole idea. Sorcerers are no longer "free kills", nor should they be.</blockquote>Don't worry, Greenion is sooooo angry about manashield and thinks his app1 spells and adept1s are the "norm" on PVP servers. He admits to thinking any class with these low quality spells should be able to just burn through manashield without a problem instead of getting out of line of site / timing knockbacks / interrupts. ( the reason they have manashield is because they have LONG CAST TIMES ((hint hint)) with no control effects ) I play many other classes other than my warlock and I come against sorcerers on them with no problem at all. I would hate to see Greenion fight a healer. So I am a warlock and he channels his anger at me just because I have manashield even tho it wasn't mentioned or in the screen shot. Any sorcerer comes here with an idea / belief / opinion and he immediately starts bashing manashield repeatedly changing the subject of their thread. At best he is childish but on my long list of overpowered things in this game, manashield is not one of them. I can say this from 2 years of pvp experience playing many different classes.So why do you believe deity blessings and miracles should stay in the game completely making some classes useless?Dhye

G1Joe

10-25-2007, 11:19 AM

wouldnt worry about him to tbh hes a troll and lock isnt even 70yes they are op but not so much so to come whining on every thread about itmiracles should not be useable in pvp or there should be pvp specific miracles that enhance

Greenion

10-25-2007, 11:41 AM

So why do you believe deity blessings and miracles should stay in the game completely making some classes useless?i dont think they make any classes useless (basicly because of my definition of useless i guess)and...i think in a pvp environment there will be many things, aspects of gameplay that are beyond the measure of a single player.miracles, or countering any and all of them would fit within that set.edit> that which is OPd is usually in the eye of the noncaster.

Mildavyn

10-25-2007, 11:44 AM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>On my long list of overpowered things in this game, manashield is not one of them. I can say this from 2 years of pvp experience playing many different classes.</blockquote>Sorry to continue the manashield de-rail, but I just had to.Manashield most certainly *IS* overpowered. With the exception of a few classes (read: non-bard scouts) it's very close to an "I-Win" button. Sure, there are ways around it. Sure, you can Pumice it off... maybe, if you're extremely lucky. At the absolute worst, it's an "I-Dont-Lose for 30 seconds" button.Having said that, compared to a miracle which provides 100% reflect, or one which cures and then provides one minute immunity to control effects... manashield is like the water-pistol to their atomic bomb. Either one of those miracles will win a fight against me, every time. The absolute best I'll manage is to get away, and that's extremely doubtful.Miracles, especially ones which leave certain classes with absolutely no chance to win, have no place in PvP combat. I don't care if it's on a 60 minute timer. It could be on a 3 day timer and it'd still be stupidly overpowered.EDIT: This is coming from someone who's been on Venekor since the day it went live, I've also played every single class in the game, except for a berserker, at one time or another in PvP combat. (kinda shocking when I thought about it and realised that I HAD played every class except a berserker)

Mildavyn

10-25-2007, 11:48 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Greenion, no offense but when are you gonna start checking your facts before you reply to posts? First off, only coercers and troubadors gets charm as a skill. Other classes that rely heavily on control effects will have to do without that. Oh, did you mean the AA charm for illusionists? There is just one little problem with that - it only lasts for 16 seconds. The blessing lasts for a full minute. Imagine that... *sigh*</blockquote>Coercer charm lasts for 22 (25?) seconds and Troubador charm lasts for 14 seconds. What's your point?

Snowlywhite

10-25-2007, 01:03 PM

let's try like this... nullmail+ms >>>>> brigand. If you ain't dumb, you win. What does it take to beat that? Well... a miracle(in the general sense of the word, not the ingame sense), hence you use a miracle(in the ingame sense).I spend lotsa time on my alchy, I spend half a 32 slots box just to carry all the right pots. in enough quantity for 8h non stop play. I spend 10g+daily on totems. I spend time on my provisioner to have the best food for my lvl. I spend time, or cash, to get miracles/blessings(and mind you I'm only lvl. 32).Want a skill based game? Play a fps, play gw, play starcraft, whatever... This is a GRIND game. You grind your tradeskills, you grind your lvls, you grind your status, you grind your gear; or you grind cash and buy all of the above; or you work irl and buy plat. It's ok for everyone to lie himself from time to time, however, it should be in limits... and saying it takes uber skill in this game far surpasses any decent limits...If you have an above mediocre iq and bother yourself to read through what other classes' abilities, then your class + your gear vs his class + his gear is the only thing that decides the fight.This guy made a choice; he wants to beat casters twice hour tops/gross price. The diety he has doesn't help a brigand in any shape or form bar this and eventually hate reduction if he raids. You made a choice too - with all your arsenal, you can beat melee everytime, yet you have problems with some casters. He called your "I win" button, paid for that, and won... Fair enough. Want to call his call and win? use this - <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Tunare%27s_Lifeshield" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Tunare%27s_Lifeshield</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Tunare%27s_Lifeshield." target="_blank"></a> Won't help you as warlock in anything, but beating melee even more, but hey... if it bothers you that much... Why are gods good in pvp? Simple, it's another thing to grind, hence another parameter where, if you invest time and the other side doesn't, you win, which is more then fair given the game spirit(aka grind).

Amphibia

10-25-2007, 02:25 PM

<cite>Paikis@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Greenion, no offense but when are you gonna start checking your facts before you reply to posts? First off, only coercers and troubadors gets charm as a skill. Other classes that rely heavily on control effects will have to do without that. Oh, did you mean the AA charm for illusionists? There is just one little problem with that - it only lasts for 16 seconds. The blessing lasts for a full minute. Imagine that... *sigh*</blockquote>Coercer charm lasts for 22 (25?) seconds and Troubador charm lasts for 14 seconds. What's your point?</blockquote>Wasn't aiming at you guys with that arguement. The only thing this means, is that your charm wouldn't be a great counter against someone who is using Mischeaf Maker either. That was my point.

Vydar2

10-25-2007, 03:36 PM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vydar2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote>me too.edit> /offers op a tissue.</blockquote>Wow thanks. If only I had one for everytime you cried on the forums about something then used 5 pages of posts to ask how it worked. The only difference is I know what I am talking about. Miracles allow people with no skill to completely decimate people that know what they are doing in PVP. Maybe thats why you like them soo much.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but a lot of Eq2 pvp is rock, paper, scissors.Cleric> ScoutDruid > SorcerorSorceror > Most scoutsYou're a warlock. You are the rock to melee classes's scissors.One pair of scissors brought a grenade. /shrugWarlocks who know what they're doing typically dominate melee classes, utterly and completely. Warlock is the new Brigand, in that it is the most OP class and has the best potential for killing so many other classes... Manashield, Focused Casting, Nullmail... all add up to one screwed melee'r. You SHOULD beat a Brigand. He came back with something that gave him a shot at beating you.Miracles are on a one HOUR reuse timer. It's not like you're encountering it every fight. You died. It happens. We all die. </blockquote>you are very wrong in the druid > sorc department though.And a well played scout in t7 can kill a well played inquisitor. Its gonna come close, very close. the way it ought to be. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />This isnt really a this class beats this class beats this class game. Most classes, if not all, can spec to make up for their weaknesses to be able to handle something that has a "natural" predisposition to exploit those weaknesses. The class wills till be very strong at what it does good, even if speccing to remedie its weaknesses, IE the sorceror manashield. </blockquote>The ONLY scout that should come CLOSE to killing an inquis is a Brigand, and that's because of Vaunt. Otherwise, no skilled inquis should EVER lose to a scout. And it depends on the druid. Most druids can heal through most sorceror's dps, and a warden can feed themselves power (as can a warlock), so in most cases, a sorceror should die to a druid.And if you don't think this game isn't so simplified as Rock, Paper, Scissors with few exceptions... I'm not sure how many classes you've tried playing lol. Yes, you can sometimes make up for these preset class differentials by different aa spec's and such, but those only go so far.

Harbringer Doom

10-25-2007, 03:59 PM

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>Actualy not I can count the number of times i used a mirical on one hand. The first time i fought a group of DoM and a conj plane shifted his pet. First time I ever saw this and no one in vent knew what it was and i poped agod power thinking i got godded. Next time i was hit by a x2 and popped a god and took out 6 of them before i died.On the other hand i cant count the number used on me. There is a vid ofa monk using 2 on me and he sill died right after i died</blockquote>Wait... there is a vid of a monk using two miracles on you in the same fight?One monk? Two miracles? The same fight?Can you tell me where the video is of this, and whether it was two miracles? I want to check it out before I decree SHANNANIGANS!!

Norrsken

10-25-2007, 04:09 PM

<cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote</cite><cite></cite><blockquote>Actualy not I can count the number of times i used a mirical on one hand. The first time i fought a group of DoM and a conj plane shifted his pet. First time I ever saw this and no one in vent knew what it was and i poped agod power thinking i got godded. Next time i was hit by a x2 and popped a god and took out 6 of them before i died.On the other hand i cant count the number used on me. There is a vid ofa monk using 2 on me and he sill died right after i died</blockquote>Wait... there is a vid of a monk using two miracles on you in the same fight?One monk? Two miracles? The same fight?Can you tell me where the video is of this, and whether it was two miracles? I want to check it out before I decree SHANNANIGANS!!</blockquote>I guess he should have said miracle + blessing.

Gagla

10-25-2007, 04:14 PM

There are two options. The fight lasted over an hour or it took place next to an altar and he recharged midfight.=p

ThomasGrey

10-25-2007, 04:34 PM

The trick in pvp mmo's is knowing when to adapt and when to shrug it off and say "there is nothing I can do to change the outcome of that fight", put it behind you and get back to enjoying the game. In every game, every class, has its own unique god mode at some point and you are going to occasionally get wtfpwnd hard in the face, and 99% its nothing the devs should or could do anything about. Nerfing miracles isn't the solution. Taking that content from the PVP servers is kind of weak especially considering they are already toned down for pvp. I'd rather endure the occasional [Removed for Content] whooping, knowing that I have yet another option for enhancing and customizing my characters.

Bozidar

10-25-2007, 04:36 PM

<cite>ThomasGrey wrote:</cite><blockquote>The trick in pvp mmo's is knowing when to adapt and when to shrug it off and say "there is nothing I can do to change the outcome of that fight", put it behind you and get back to enjoying the game. In every game, every class, has its own unique god mode at some point and you are going to occasionally get wtfpwnd hard in the face, and 99% its nothing the devs should or could do anything about. Nerfing miracles isn't the solution. Taking that content from the PVP servers is kind of weak especially considering they are already toned down for pvp. I'd rather endure the occasional [I cannot control my vocabulary] whooping, knowing that I have yet another option for enhancing and customizing my characters.</blockquote>VERY well said, sir.

10-25-2007, 05:54 PM

Tunare is good aligned (as am I) so I won't have to worry about that reflect miracle very often as people would have to get the altar then either exile or betray all the way to freeport to use it against me. I will just take note of who uses it and never fight them again. I could use it against ever single caster enemy I fight 1v1 if I wanted to. But I DON'T want to. Deity blessings and miracles, including that one ruin this game just as much as revive zerging.Whats more fun.. Pushing a button that says "I win no matter what" or having a good fight and losing? Some people would rather win with no chance of losing and it prob has something to do with the fame system.

Snowlywhite

10-25-2007, 07:27 PM

so is quellious, hence you have to learn only about those exiles who have this god and actively use miracle that reflect spells..."But I DON'T want to."And I find ms overpowered. So what? You don't want to, don't use it. You find thing x op., don't fight those. In over 50% of the cases I don't survive a ms... noone forces me to fight sorcs., and I don't come here to grumble when I lose.There are more then enough ways in this game to run; plain running on your poney is 90% of the time more then enough in 1vs1. You don't need evac or anything, you just need to press autorun. You don't like fighting x who does y and beats your z? Don't fight him, that's that. You're paranoid and want to be the guy in your log - switch your deity. You don't want to switch deity? Lose 1st time, get him 2nd time. Whatever... The worst thing is suggest changes that comply to "my honour code". Great, maybe your honour code is different from the next guy's honour code, or maybe the next guy couldn't care less about honour...There's only one change acceptable - when class x constantly beats every class within the majority of fights. Then, class x is overpowered. Otherwise... if class a beats class b even if the player behind class a is mentally challenged... that's fine, as class b you know that you shouldn't fight class a, that's that.And anyway, in a game where there are... a ton of gross imbalances, suggesting fixing for things that happen once in a blue moon is a wierd way to start... Leaving aside I don't find SOE carryin' one bit about balance in pvp anyway...

10-25-2007, 07:59 PM

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>so is quellious, hence you have to learn only about those exiles who have this god and actively use miracle that reflect spells..."But I DON'T want to."And I find ms overpowered. So what? You don't want to, don't use it. You find thing x op., don't fight those. In over 50% of the cases I don't survive a ms... noone forces me to fight sorcs., and I don't come here to grumble when I lose.There are more then enough ways in this game to run; plain running on your poney is 90% of the time more then enough in 1vs1. You don't need evac or anything, you just need to press autorun. You don't like fighting x who does y and beats your z? Don't fight him, that's that. You're paranoid and want to be the guy in your log - switch your deity. You don't want to switch deity? Lose 1st time, get him 2nd time. Whatever... The worst thing is suggest changes that comply to "my honour code". Great, maybe your honour code is different from the next guy's honour code, or maybe the next guy couldn't care less about honour...There's only one change acceptable - when class x constantly beats every class within the majority of fights. Then, class x is overpowered. Otherwise... if class a beats class b even if the player behind class a is mentally challenged... that's fine, as class b you know that you shouldn't fight class a, that's that.And anyway, in a game where there are... a ton of gross imbalances, suggesting fixing for things that happen once in a blue moon is a wierd way to start... Leaving aside I don't find SOE carryin' one bit about balance in pvp anyway...</blockquote>Why do you always talk about a buncha stuff not related to the subject of the thread? Last post you went on and on about how you are only level 32 and you spend 10g in totems and potions a day.... who cares about your totems and your big box of potions. What does that have to do with this thread? I definitely don't need advice from someone half my adventure level ( without access to the more OP miracles ) that can't even stay on topic soon as they start typing. Of course there are balancing issues at low levels because people haven't received most of their skills. T7 PVP is very balanced IMO besides miracles.I was asking the people why they thought miracles and blessing in general should stay in PVP combat. Still haven't received an intelligent response that has changed my opinion that they should be removed.

Snowlywhite

10-25-2007, 08:05 PM

"Why are gods good in pvp? Simple, it's another thing to grind, hence another parameter where, if you invest time and the other side doesn't, you win, which is more then fair given the game spirit(aka grind)."see 1st post...and regarding the rest of your post... between "half of your lvl" and your lvl, I lack 3 abilities and 2 more from aa... and from reading what all classes do, mathematically speaking, they get 90% of their abilities till 30 all right and most of the relevant aas if they ain't lazy...

Greenion

10-25-2007, 08:05 PM

why they thought miracles and blessing in general should stay in PVP combat. because ye GODZ demand it be so.

Norrsken

10-25-2007, 08:05 PM

<cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>so is quellious, hence you have to learn only about those exiles who have this god and actively use miracle that reflect spells..."But I DON'T want to."And I find ms overpowered. So what? You don't want to, don't use it. You find thing x op., don't fight those. In over 50% of the cases I don't survive a ms... noone forces me to fight sorcs., and I don't come here to grumble when I lose.There are more then enough ways in this game to run; plain running on your poney is 90% of the time more then enough in 1vs1. You don't need evac or anything, you just need to press autorun. You don't like fighting x who does y and beats your z? Don't fight him, that's that. You're paranoid and want to be the guy in your log - switch your deity. You don't want to switch deity? Lose 1st time, get him 2nd time. Whatever... The worst thing is suggest changes that comply to "my honour code". Great, maybe your honour code is different from the next guy's honour code, or maybe the next guy couldn't care less about honour...There's only one change acceptable - when class x constantly beats every class within the majority of fights. Then, class x is overpowered. Otherwise... if class a beats class b even if the player behind class a is mentally challenged... that's fine, as class b you know that you shouldn't fight class a, that's that.And anyway, in a game where there are... a ton of gross imbalances, suggesting fixing for things that happen once in a blue moon is a wierd way to start... Leaving aside I don't find SOE carryin' one bit about balance in pvp anyway...</blockquote>Why do you always talk about a buncha stuff not related to the subject of the thread? Last post you went on and on about how you are only level 32 and you spend 10g in totems and potions a day.... who cares about your totems and your big box of potions. What does that have to do with this thread? I definitely don't need advice from someone half my adventure level ( without access to the more OP miracles ) that can't even stay on topic soon as they start typing. Of course there are balancing issues at low levels because people haven't received most of their skills. T7 PVP is very balanced IMO besides miracles.I was asking the people why they thought miracles and blessing in general should stay in PVP combat. Still haven't received an intelligent response that has changed my opinion that they should be removed. </blockquote>As far as Im concerned, miracles have a place in pvp, int he same way aas do. they allow you to make your class better at what it does best, or add to its weak areas. they should however, never be "Guess what, the next 2 minutes, Im COMPLETELY immune to all you can do"...

Snowlywhite

10-25-2007, 08:13 PM

and yes, that miracle is overpowered, so a few others, but that doesn't justify removing all of them, it just implies changing a fewand game is so balanced at t7 that 90% of the ppl. play about 30% of the classes because of the perfect balance...

Norrsken

10-25-2007, 08:16 PM

<cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>and yes, that miracle is overpowered, so a few others, but that doesn't justify removing all of them, it just implies changing a fewand game is so balanced at t7 that 90% of the ppl. play about 30% of the classes because of the perfect balance...</blockquote>Well, it was like that on pve servers as well. People in generaly seem to fancy certain playstyles more.

Norrsken

10-25-2007, 08:21 PM

<cite>Vydar2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vydar2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dhye@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote>me too.edit> /offers op a tissue.</blockquote>Wow thanks. If only I had one for everytime you cried on the forums about something then used 5 pages of posts to ask how it worked. The only difference is I know what I am talking about. Miracles allow people with no skill to completely decimate people that know what they are doing in PVP. Maybe thats why you like them soo much.</blockquote>I'm sorry, but a lot of Eq2 pvp is rock, paper, scissors.Cleric> ScoutDruid > SorcerorSorceror > Most scoutsYou're a warlock. You are the rock to melee classes's scissors.One pair of scissors brought a grenade. /shrugWarlocks who know what they're doing typically dominate melee classes, utterly and completely. Warlock is the new Brigand, in that it is the most OP class and has the best potential for killing so many other classes... Manashield, Focused Casting, Nullmail... all add up to one screwed melee'r. You SHOULD beat a Brigand. He came back with something that gave him a shot at beating you.Miracles are on a one HOUR reuse timer. It's not like you're encountering it every fight. You died. It happens. We all die. </blockquote>you are very wrong in the druid > sorc department though.And a well played scout in t7 can kill a well played inquisitor. Its gonna come close, very close. the way it ought to be. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />This isnt really a this class beats this class beats this class game. Most classes, if not all, can spec to make up for their weaknesses to be able to handle something that has a "natural" predisposition to exploit those weaknesses. The class wills till be very strong at what it does good, even if speccing to remedie its weaknesses, IE the sorceror manashield. </blockquote>The ONLY scout that should come CLOSE to killing an inquis is a Brigand, and that's because of Vaunt. Otherwise, no skilled inquis should EVER lose to a scout. And it depends on the druid. Most druids can heal through most sorceror's dps, and a warden can feed themselves power (as can a warlock), so in most cases, a sorceror should die to a druid.And if you don't think this game isn't so simplified as Rock, Paper, Scissors with few exceptions... I'm not sure how many classes you've tried playing lol. Yes, you can sometimes make up for these preset class differentials by different aa spec's and such, but those only go so far. </blockquote>I've tried every class except dirge and conjie I think.Not at 70 of course, I didnt bother with tryinge very class on pvp test when we could. Just a fwe I was interrested in.and well, as a necro I can outdps a druids heals, shouldnt sorcerors be able to do it as well?and broccolisword was the swashbuckler that repeatedly killed me as a 70 inqie. and he was the only one to do that, of any of the classes I managed to fight on pvp test. Of course, the swashies ahve been tweaked since then, but I'd reckon that a well played swashie can still kill an inqy.And if you do think the classes inherent strength/weaknesses cannot be overcome by specs, gear (here I do not mean superior gear, but gear that makes up for the flaws your class has) and skill, then I wonder if you are such a hot player yourself. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Snowlywhite

10-25-2007, 11:25 PM

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Snowlywhite@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>and yes, that miracle is overpowered, so a few others, but that doesn't justify removing all of them, it just implies changing a fewand game is so balanced at t7 that 90% of the ppl. play about 30% of the classes because of the perfect balance...</blockquote>Well, it was like that on pve servers as well. People in generaly seem to fancy certain playstyles more.</blockquote>pve is a different story... you have the option to grind slow(like a healer, with low dps, or even tank) or grind fast with a pure dps class with also invis/stealth... obviously, since all that matters there is mob killing, ppl. will pick something that they can lvl. fast...

Raznor2

10-26-2007, 01:38 AM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raznor269 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Part of what makes a player skillful is how well they understand the abilities that their own class has and the abilities that they can use beyond the skill set that their class has. This includes, potions, poisons, city merchant bought clickables, loot clickables, tinkered items, augments, god powers and anything else that can benefit them in combat. Another part of playing skillful pvp combat is understanding that you need to be prepared to recognize and deal with the unexpected that can come from someone using any of the previously mentioned tools. Too often I hear players talk about dirty or dishonorable tactics like using god powers or pumice stones, but what they're really angry about is losing a fight they felt they should have won because they were not prepared to deal with nor did they want to deal with someone using a tool beyond their class's skill set. Having abilites like god powers adds another dimension of challenge to pvp. Without items and abilities like this combat can become predictable. Take the OP's fight for example, say that there was no clickables or god powers in that situation. Then he would have the confidence to know that with the abilities he has as a warlock, against the class he was fighting, that the outcome would be favorable to him and in any subsequent encounter with that class he could follow the same tactics and likely come out victorious. But when you have the element of clickable items and god powers put into the fight he now has to be wary of anyone using that same ability against him. Having been burned by that ability before he'll be quicker to recognize and counter this tactic, especially against that particular player. The combat then becomes more intricate and the possiblities you have to consider expand signifigantly. This is the benefit of having god powers and other abilities beyond what your class comes with. Raithan</blockquote>I agree with all of this in essence, but only if the abilities that are being used are somehow possible to counter. If someone is using a god ability against a class that is unable to counter it, then recognizing it won't do much good - because you are still going to lose no matter what. Let me give you an example: A blessing called "Mischeif Maker". Dispels all control effects, and makes you immune to everything except charm for a full minute. Let's say I use this against a chanter, what is he supposed to do then? Without his control effects, he has nothing. It is a pure "I win"-button. </blockquote>Ok, let's talk about this example for a moment. As a class that is dependant on control effects the best option they have is to charm. Granted, this will only last for a portion of the time that MM makes them immune to control effects. As a troubadour, once you've charmed a player, if it's one on one, you can evac, the charm will break the encounter quickly. After the evac you can track and return to said player and attack them again without dealing with MM. As a coercer, after charm you can run. There's nothing wrong with running from someone if for a period of time you have little or no chance of beating them. With a 16 second ( or however long the charm lasts) head start, unless your stuck on a small area you should be able to elude that player for another 44 seconds before reentering combat. Or, let's say in the same situation that the person attacking the coercer was a sorceror. That coercer could use the same ability the OP faced and reflect that sorceror's spells back at him. So for a long portion of time the coercer and sorceror would be in a stalemate until the timers ran out.This reminds me of the first time as a bruiser I encountered engarde. Before then I was used to having the upper hand against most scouting classes (keep in mind this was a year ago and before alot of changes.) Then one day I spotted a solo swashie and went right for him. "Poof!" I was dead in less than 8 seconds. At first I thought it was a riposte move against my own melee attack so next time I saw a swashie, when I saw engarde go up I shut off attack and promply got squished again, without putting up a fight either. I was frustrated with this so I went and looked up what exactly en garde did. What it was doing was everytime I deflected an attack, the swashie would riposte that and deal 400 to 500 damage, since I was a bruiser and a large chunk of my tanking is avoidance, this ability was especially nasty for me. But I understood what it did and how long it lasted and devised a way to counter it. First, I would need closed mind to deal with stuns, second, soon as en garde went up I had to a. mez or b. knockdown the swashie and get away from him. After that I would need to stay away for the duration of en garde. One day I got to try out my strategy. In POA a swashie zoned in at the front door. We engaged and he started en garde, I managed to mez him and I dashed down the hallway and feigned death so that there were mobs between me and him. The swashie decided not to follow and I waited until en garde dropped. Once it did, I ran past the mobs, FD'ed, opened up on the swashbuckler and beat him. That win was one of the most satisfying of all my time on pvp. I figured out how to deal with a difficult ca that seemed unbeatable at first and used a strat that I devised to win. ~Raithan, 70 bruiser