Relative Strength of Combat Arts

[TheKraken]

I've been reading back pages for AA information, and I've found it very useful in plotting out my new Warden's future route.  The combat arts looks like something I'd like to try, at least once through, but there is one question I have regarding them.  I understand they stay good in that they don't need to be upgraded with scroll purchases as you level, and that's another positive feature for them, but I haven't seen info regarding how they stack up versus upgrading the spells.  How many points in a CA equal an upgraded spell?  For instance, how many points do I put in one to equal an Adept 3?  If there is a chart somewhere I have overlooked, that would show how points equal apprentice or adept strengths, please feel free to link as an answer.  Any info is welcome, thanks in advance.

[Kulras]

<p>I forgot the math I came up with, but I remember thinking to myself, if I don't put 5 points in each CA slot, then the CA is going to be too weak.  I think that still holds true.  Personally, I never went with the debuff CA because the 5 points are probably better spent in upping your mitigation (assuming you are going down that far and/or want to get the crit chance at the bottom of the tree).</p><p>My advice, go 3/3 on 3 of the CA's first (Fire, Ice, AE Ice) then go down the strength tree: 4 4 4 8 (that heals is terribly nice), then if you like the setup and want more dps, go 5/5 on your CA's.  Of course, the strength line is really optional, but one of the great benefits of the CA's themselves is the boon heal you get in the strength line.</p><p> Cheers and GL to you!</p>

[DravynX]

<p>You'll definitely want to go 5/5 in your CA's by some point, as the dmg they do will be comparable to the Master 1 of the spell version. I probably should have done as Kulras suggested but I put off strength line until I had maxed CA line in the Warden tree for the 75% crits...well worth it imo. My warden is level 41, with little over 200ish strength my CA's hit in the 500-650 range in pve and anywhere from 200-500 range in pvp, while my aoe CA hits for 800ish in pve and 300-600 in pvp.</p><p>The ca's take longer to refresh than the actual spell, however there's no cast time, and right now, most of the way through the strength line, I have 5 CA's that I can lay out in about three seconds...which is enough to put most casters in the dirt and some scouts, if you crit enough. I usually burst dps, then between refreshes do my healing and curing, if they're still standing i put another round of CA's into em and its over. Max those CA's! You won't regret it, and with the crit ability..wow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Plus its AWESOME not having to buy masters.</p><p>I have kind of a CA fetish with this guy, and I got to looking, you can have upwards of 9 CA's on a warden if you spread some points around..I dunno if it'd be worth it but I might try it just for kicks...that's a lot of burst dps.</p>

[ELITEO]

<p>I tried a search myself to see if i could find any numbers that some one had posted on this (no luck) Wish i could log on and do some testing for ya ,but my comp that runs eq blew up a couple weeks ago so im left with the warden forums to feel like im still in touch with things (thanx all **sniff**)</p><p>As far as PVE your tree says they max out at adept1 but carry a to hit bonus , and i think rank 5 or all of them is equal to the bonus that the master spells are (40% less resisted ?) But the CA checks against their physical mitigation/Avoidance and your crushing/slashing skill , while the nuke checks against their elemental mitigation and your disruption skill. So you would find it harder to hit fighter type mobs with CA's versus caster type mobs , even though the CA's are doing elemental dmg.</p><p>If you get a chance , when you get a new nuke spell and make it adept1 err what ever the CA counter part is then check it against  with equal Int and Str ... make sure you dont have any dmg mods on. Then youll have the awnser to your question. Remember you have to be the same lvl as the spell because the CA scales with you, and the nuke doesnt. It would be interesting to find out just how they stack up.</p><p>To DravynX: I tried getting all the possible CA's(8 i think) But found i did more dmg just by auto attacking and putting pts in str line. The CA on the wisdom line is nice for the Aoe root/brk root, but both that one and the int one arent great in dmg compared to auto swing and its benefits (procs). I think if your going to dabble in the int line while being mele , going all the way to infusion is the best thing. And infusion procs on your natures blade also, making it hit for around 900 dmg (rank 6/7 300 int 450 str lvl 70) After using infusion for awhile now, It makes me wonder how many caster spec'd wardens actually found this useful because of its range (10-15 meters to the closest mob from you) So to hit a specific mob you might want to stand on top of them to be sure they are the one getting hit , And I think if your going to have to be that close for it to work, you might as well be smackin em. Just my 2cps</p><p>Skivley101</p>

[DravynX]

<cite>ELITEONE wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To DravynX: I tried getting all the possible CA's(8 i think) But found i did more dmg just by auto attacking and putting pts in str line. The CA on the wisdom line is nice for the Aoe root/brk root, but both that one and the int one arent great in dmg compared to auto swing and its benefits (procs). I think if your going to dabble in the int line while being mele , going all the way to infusion is the best thing. And infusion procs on your natures blade also, making it hit for around 900 dmg (rank 6/7 300 int 450 str lvl 70) After using infusion for awhile now, It makes me wonder how many caster spec'd wardens actually found this useful because of its range (10-15 meters to the closest mob from you) So to hit a specific mob you might want to stand on top of them to be sure they are the one getting hit , And I think if your going to have to be that close for it to work, you might as well be smackin em. Just my 2cps</p><p>Skivley101</p></blockquote><p>Yea, the only AA CA I have right now from the druid tree is the one from the strengh line, and at four points it only hits for around 200 in pve with a long (30 sec?) recast, so that does seem pretty weak. The combat haste from it is nice, but then again that only lasts 20 seconds. Haven't gone down the int line at all, but I might check that out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There is an unavoidable attack at the bottom of the str line that doesn't seem to give any bonus at all other than being unavoidable..the dmg on it up front doesn't look at all impressive at 1 point, but it does recharge in ten seconds.</p>

[ELITEO]

I think the dmg of the str end line one is about equal to rank 5 of the natures blade ... of course str increases each dmg and they both will crit at the 75% rate if you have it. with my int at 300 and having infusion it added another 220 to natures blade. I dont have the end str line right now , but it is possible to have both that and infusion.I would say though ... untill you get 65 AA pts , trying the mele caster hybrid would be kinda weak.  21 pts warden tree(75% mele crit) 23 pts druid int(infusion) 20pts druid str line(max natural boon) and of course 1 in shapeshift. The infusion adds a whole bunch of possible offensive spells., it does drain pwr though, so having good pwr regen is key, i use pwr feed adornment on my weapon.

[detson2]

I did some checking last night on my newbie warden and compared Chill (Master 2) and it's converted CA Cold Strike (Adept 1 @ 5 points) It would appear to me that the MAX the CA goes to is Adept 1 but it may be more like a Adept 2 if there was such a thing. But the CA's maxed on points don't compare so far with a Adept 3. Make sense? Anyone else had a chance to compare the CA's against the spells? I'm broke so I cannot do a indepth studie. But maybe one of y'all can.

[Arielle Nightshade]

I'd also say regardless of what you choose make sure to keep your spells upgraded to the best you can afford  - meaning nukes.   Since it's a cumulative thing, if you decide to spec into and out of melee CA's you'll always be ready to go whichever route you choose.  You won't have to run out and buy or make all the spells to catchup ..if you need to be caster spec'd.

[xandez]

<cite>detson2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did some checking last night on my newbie warden and compared Chill (Master 2) and it's converted CA Cold Strike (Adept 1 @ 5 points) It would appear to me that the MAX the CA goes to is Adept 1 but it may be more like a Adept 2 if there was such a thing. But the CA's maxed on points don't compare so far with a Adept 3. Make sense? Anyone else had a chance to compare the CA's against the spells? I'm broke so I cannot do a indepth studie. But maybe one of y'all can.</blockquote>IMO, the adept1 CA:s ~adept3 of the equivalent spell, but havent tested properly...you will have to remember that INT affect to the spell dmg vs. STR which affects the CA dmg (mostly, INT prolly affects the cold DoT portion)++Xan

[GinFan]

<p>If I'm not mistaken, the debuff amount on a Master1 Glacial Cold is higher than the 5 point CA.  I tried this CA a long time ago, so would someone with this AA please confirm?  I purposefully skipped the DoT CA for this reason (the DoT is relatively fast cast anyway and I went INT/AGI lines).  </p>

[Effie]

<cite>ELITEONE wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>As far as PVE your tree says they max out at adept1 but carry a to hit bonus , and i think rank 5 or all of them is equal to the bonus that the master spells are (40% less resisted ?) But the CA checks against their physical mitigation/Avoidance and your crushing/slashing skill , while the nuke checks against their elemental mitigation and your disruption skill. So you would find it harder to hit fighter type mobs with CA's versus caster type mobs , even though the CA's are doing elemental dmg.</p></blockquote><p>That's a bit of misinformation right there.</p><p>The to-hit bonus is 25% for all ranks.</p><p>The to-hit check is based on your weapon skill vs mob defense/avoidance. This gives extra value to our Instinct buff line. Mitigation does not figure in your chance-to-hit. </p><p>The CAs deal elemental damage so the mitigation check is on mob elemental (fire/cold) resist... not physical mitigaiton (crush/slash/pierce).</p><p>My melee autoattack does greater damage vs caster type mobs and lower damage vs fighter, while CAs deal higher damage vs fighter and lower dmg vs caster. The easiest way to see this for yourself is to notice the damage difference before and after landing the ele debuff attack.</p>

[Effie]

<cite>GinFan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If I'm not mistaken, the debuff amount on a Master1 Glacial Cold is higher than the 5 point CA.  I tried this CA a long time ago, so would someone with this AA please confirm?  I purposefully skipped the DoT CA for this reason (the DoT is relatively fast cast anyway and I went INT/AGI lines).  </p></blockquote><p>That is correct.</p><p>The debuff is around 15-20% higher on Glacial Cold Master 1.</p>

[ELITEO]

GinFan wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the debuff amount on a Master1 Glacial Cold is higher than the 5 point CA.  I tried this CA a long time ago, so would someone with this AA please confirm?  I purposefully skipped the DoT CA for this reason (the DoT is relatively fast cast anyway and I went INT/AGI lines).  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The debuff for the CA is 840 rank 5 lvl 70 , The dot portion is effected by int , and is slightly more per tick than the master spell version with the same int , cant remember by how much though , seems like they were doing about equal over all damage with a mele spec, not calculating the upfront burst dmg with a crit. The lower debuffing isnt really that significant, for mele because landing CA's doesnt matter on their elemental mitigation , only how much dmg comes through , wich is a whole nother subject of how much dmg is mitigated at what # and lvl , which would be interesting to know but starts to make my head hurt.(Sorry how the quote looks , somthing up with the way this Mac likes to sort stuff)

[Effie]

<p><i><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">The lower debuffing isnt really that significant</span></i></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yep, a few hundred points less on a debuff is almost inconsequntial....</span></p>

[ELITEO]

^^^ I meant in the way it helps you land your CA's.  ....i know that post was a little hard to read becuz of the way this Mac is translating my post, but if your going to quote me, put the rest of that statement with it.

[Effie]

<cite>detson2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did some checking last night on my newbie warden and compared Chill (Master 2) and it's converted CA Cold Strike (Adept 1 @ 5 points) It would appear to me that the MAX the CA goes to is Adept 1 but it may be more like a Adept 2 if there was such a thing. But the CA's maxed on points don't compare so far with a Adept 3. Make sense? Anyone else had a chance to compare the CA's against the spells? I'm broke so I cannot do a indepth studie. But maybe one of y'all can.</blockquote><p>I believe that with equal str and int, a rank 5 CA replacement will do less damage than their equivalent Master 1 spell... they also have slightly longer refresh timers.... but when combined with the 75% crit AA, the CAs actually deal significantly higher average damage. </p><p>Some other advantages to the CA replacements is their virtually instant cast time, they are uninterruptable and can be used on the move.</p>

[RollerDog]

Also, don't forget, the CA's go up in damage automatically every level (for free). So right when you get a new spell (and PAY for upgrading it), the spell may have higher damage but shortly thereafter and for many levels, the CA will do more damage; not even counting the 75% crit.

[Effie]

<p><i><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">So right when you get a new spell (and PAY for upgrading it), the spell may have higher damage but shortly thereafter and for many levels, the CA will do more damage</span></i></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">That is incorrect.</span></p>

[GinFan]

<cite>Effie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Yep, a few hundred points less on a debuff is almost inconsequntial....</span></p></blockquote>I'm from the every-little-bit-helps school of thought.  Wouldn't it be a potential differentiating factor, when choosing to nuke or CA, if you had several elemental damage types in raid nuking their collective butts off? 

[Effie]

<p>Wizards can maintain a 1500 point elemental debuff.</p><p>Brigand can maintain a 2100 point cold debuff.</p><p>Brigand can maintain a 2200 point <i>all magical damage </i>debuff.</p><p>Brigand can debuff 3500 vs <i><b>all damage</b></i> for 15.5 seconds every minute.</p><p>Bards can maintain a 750 point <i>all magical damage</i> debuff.</p><p>Conjuror can maintain a 1100 point <i>elemental and all magical damage</i> debuff.</p><p>Inquisitor can maintain a 650 point <b><i>all damage </i></b>debuff.</p><p>Mystic can maintain a 1100 point elemental debuff.</p><p>Warden can maintian a 1040 point elemental debuff.</p><p>That's not even counting hex dolls.....</p><p>I also didn't include WIS debuffs. The max potential maintained wisdom debuff is roughly 475.</p><p>I'm not sure what the soft cap is for resistance debuffing but I recall hearing it was somewhere up in the 5-6k range. If there's a Brig in your raid, you will have no problems reaching the point of diminishing returns. At the soft cap, a few hundred points debuff will probably net your wizard 10-15 extra damage on their Ice Nova.</p><p>So I stand by my opinion that a few hundred points difference on a debuff is inconsequential.</p>

[ELITEO]

^^^ What? , I thought you were being sarcastic when you were agreeing with me, lol.Actually its not even a few hundred in difference , Its only about 180,(CA max=840 Spell max=1020ish?) And havent we all decided that the rank 5 CA's arent equal to the master 1's in their listed output .... so can anybody tell us what the debuff of the adept 1 spell version is?And by the way, Whats not correct about RollerDogs statement Effie? ... The spell does scale or the CA doesnt?As far as debuffing and damage coming through , When I use my Capillarydiadem, er however its spelled. It debuffs divine for 300. I notice about 10- 20 more pts of dmg on average when hitting with a priest HO ,with the seems to me method.....( Jeeze I hate using a Macintosh)

[detson2]

<cite>detson2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I did some checking last night on my newbie warden and compared Chill (Master 2) and it's converted CA Cold Strike (Adept 1 @ 5 points) It would appear to me that the MAX the CA goes to is Adept 1 but it may be more like a Adept 2 if there was such a thing. But the CA's maxed on points don't compare so far with a Adept 3. Make sense? Anyone else had a chance to compare the CA's against the spells? I'm broke so I cannot do a indepth studie. But maybe one of y'all can.</blockquote>Ok ignore What I said earlier. I dinged 18 today and My Master 2 Chill is now doing (And tooltip agrees) less damage then My Cold Strike CA....

[GinFan]

<cite>Effie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm not sure what the soft cap is for resistance debuffing but I recall hearing it was somewhere up in the 5-6k range. If there's a Brig in your raid, you will have no problems reaching the point of diminishing returns. At the soft cap, a few hundred points debuff will probably net your wizard 10-15 extra damage on their Ice Nova.</p></blockquote>Thanks for the clarification and rundown Effie.  I didn't know there was a softcap on resistance debuffs, I thought the deeper you got in the debuff the more effect it would have i.e. moving away from the softcap on the high end.

[DravynX]

<cite>Effie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">So right when you get a new spell (and PAY for upgrading it), the spell may have higher damage but shortly thereafter and for many levels, the CA will do more damage</span></i></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">That is incorrect.</span></p></blockquote>Not really. Spells are based off of int and CA's are based off of strength. With a high strength your 5 pt CA can easily have higher listed damage numbers than your master 1 spell version. All of mine do, and like he said, I don't pay for masters.

[Effie]

<cite>DravynX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not really. Spells are based off of int and CA's are based off of strength. With a high strength your 5 pt CA can easily have higher listed damage numbers than your master 1 spell version. All of mine do, and like he said, I don't pay for masters.</blockquote><p>Sure, if you have 500 STR and 100 INT, your CAs are going to do more damage than your spells... With 500 INT ad 100 STR you're spells are going to a lot more damage than your CAs.</p><p>With equal STR and INT, the spells do more damage than the CAs.</p>

[DravynX]

<p>Yes, I have terrible int and high strength. Being melee, that's how I"m supposed to be built, as far as I know. Therefore, my melee abilities greatly outdamage the spell equivelants. Isn't that the point? Also I think the 75% melee crit factor gives an edge, but not necessarily on listed numbers in the descriptions.</p><p>If you're comparing, I'd say they both have up and downsides. Lack of cast-time and resists for CA's, but longer recast and melee range requirements, etc.</p>

[Effie]

<cite>DravynX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yes, I have terrible int and high strength. Being melee, that's how I"m supposed to be built, as far as I know. Therefore, my melee abilities greatly outdamage the spell equivelants. Isn't that the point? Also I think the 75% melee crit factor gives an edge, but not necessarily on listed numbers in the descriptions.</p><p>If you're comparing, I'd say they both have up and downsides. Lack of cast-time and resists for CA's, but longer recast and melee range requirements, etc.</p></blockquote><p>Well obviously, the CAs are going to be stronger for a melee spec warden... by the same token, spells are going to be stronger for a caster warden. My point is that with both at max quality, the spells have a higher base damage than the combat arts at all levels.</p><p>As for comparing... I personally think there is no comparison. </p><p>With the appropriate AAs, CAs are so vastly superior to their spell counterparts that a warden looking for max DPS would have to be a bit dense to think that spells are even an option.</p>

[ELITEO]

<p>Its not only about the dmg output , but all the other benefits from up and close combat.</p><p>Disregarding the heal proc ...</p><p>For example : you proc 5% of your mele hits that you hit with a 3 sec delay having 415 skill</p><p>or you proc 10% of the time for every hostile spell cast with 380 skill</p><p>wich one is better ?</p><p>Also there are about twice the procs possible with mele than hostile spell casting from what ive seen.</p><p>I still say infusion is king though ... Mele Caster Hybrid Rocks</p>

[gatrm]

<cite>Effie wrote:</cite><blockquote>With equal STR and INT, the spells do more damage than the CAs.</blockquote>Strongly disagree.  At 70, with a little swapping of the gear, I can hit 300str/300int.  At those numbers, the non-crit CAs do equal damage to the spells (Master I).  Given that the CAs crit 75% of the time, they do significantly more damage (roughly double).

[branvil]

<p>There is a post on Flames with a good write up matching the damage between the CA's and the Spells.   If I remember correctly the spells all came out on top (without melee crit)..    Once the 75% melee crit was added the gap closed.  </p><p> I was healer and caster damage specced up until about 1 month ago..    my guild had most raid content that we had the man power to do on farm status and so I wasn't doing much healing and decided to try out Melee.   To me and IMHO there is no comparison in DPS.   I can mow through green ^^^'s like they were not even there.  Between spores and heal at the end of the STR line I don't even have to heal myself.   I struggled to kill blue ^^^'s  in a timely manner or even at all for that matter before but now I have no problems.    </p><p> I told myself that once RoK dropped and we went back to working on hard content I would switch back.. Now I'm not so sure.  I'm just having to much fun and fun is what it's all about. </p><p>just my two cents</p>

[xandez]

yup, having fun too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan

[Hobb]

<p>the casting on the cas is .5 sec vs 2sec+ vs spells</p><p>i believe</p>

[Mayl]

<p>Disclaimer:  Play how you want and what you like..</p><p>That said, if you are going Warden and not going the Melee CA line, you are missing out.  Play a Fury if you want to cast spells and heal.  </p><p>The DPS increase on the CA is significant.  The Debuff on the CA for your other CA's is also very nice. </p><p>Add in the STR AA line and get yourself the heals via attacks and the end STR CA and your DPS has a big boost.</p><p>Couple this with the refresh timers and you can heal between the CA's and not give up any healing ability, all while boosting yours (and in turn the group/raid etc) DPS.</p><p>The CA's with 5/5 in them equal out to be Master 1.  They gain damage each level.  Nothing like having 4 or 5 CA at Master 1 that bump up each level.  You just can not touch that vs the spell versions.   Really that simple.</p><p>Again, play what and how you want.  But if you have not gone melee CA route, just give it a try.  There is a reason why 9 out of 10 <strike>dentists</strike>, err Wardens recommend it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[detson2]

I'm going to recheck later today becuase a good friend made me some adept3's witch consisted of all my t6 and t7 damage spells. I'm a melee warden but she insisted I keep these skills up and so I got adept 3's for them. ALL the damage was slighty higher than my CA's.... I'm only 63 too. But any one else in t7 see this difference? I'll confirm later today.

[Mayl]

<p>Just remember that your newest rank of the spell version can be higher then your CA (going with Adept 3 version of the spell for arguments sake)..  </p><p>but in a level or two, your CA will scale and keep going.  So when you are using the same spell damage range for 6 or 7 levels, the CA will have passed that and now pass out ahead.</p><p>End game the final spell vs CA is close but with CA coming out ahead.  You get the added benefit of casting on the move, no interupts and healing between of course.   </p><p>But if you want to be a casting druid, fury is "better" then warden.  Again, play what you enjoy though.. That is important</p>

[sprogn]

<p>While the pure damage numbers of CA's vs Spells may favour spell casting, it's often worth remembering that unless you are autoattacking while casting spells (hence in melee range, not rooting the mob) you will do less damage with spells.  Generally, spell casters try to stay out of melee range to prevent interrupts and other effects that aren't at all beneficial to finger wigglers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>I also play a T7 melee Mystic who I must admit, does one hell of a lot more damage than my melee warden, but with the huge STR buffs mystics get, isn't surprising.  I did Acadechism a month back with my mystic at 61, a 71 tank, a 63 warlock, 64 ranger and 64 warden (not melee specced) and topped both the zonewide heals and the zonewide DPS parses - usually averaging over 900 dps a fight.  In fact the paladin had to move amends from the warlock to me in order to maintain agro...</p><p>Being a hybrid melee healer is a LOT of fun - especially when there's over ego'ed scouts at every corner who like to believe they are gods gift to EQ2.  Being on a PVP server, nothing gives me more pleasure than porcupining them down about 20% to let them think I'm a soft target, then shredding the living daylights out of them before they realised what happened.</p><p>Incidentally, grab 2 spiked adornments (shield and shoulders) and an elixir of thorns and then go solo some stuff...  You'd be sore amazed!</p>

[TigerLotus]

<p>Huhu,</p><p>I posted this once in another threat. And I would like to hear,if the lvl70+ Wardens using CAs experienced the same.</p><p>I found using CAs superior until i reached lvl 70, I hada lot of aa so I had already 70aa in Druid tree and 25 inthe Warden tree. But past lvl70 - when the new rok-spellscame up, i realized, that the CAs seam to fall backcompared to the ranged skillt. The Ranged Skills do more damagewith 100 int and A1 when the CAs. </p><p>All the things posted earlier, the crit. and the better hitchance,..make the CAs still stronger but it's not the same anymore past lvl70.I have been checking my CAs damage when leveling from 74 to 75,and the values for min. and max. damage where the same..no more scaling to playerlevel past 70 it seems.</p><p> Maybe you check this too. It could be SOE just forgot about the wardens.Betrayal for example is also stuck al lvl 70, so who knows <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<cite>Mayl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Disclaimer:  Play how you want and what you like..</p><p>That said, if you are going Warden and not going the Melee CA line, you are missing out.  Play a Fury if you want to cast spells and heal.  </p></blockquote><p>Disclaimer noted.  However, I so completely disagree with this statement, I had to say it.   I've been the Melee line, don't like it all that well, and have no thoughts or plans of being a Fury, or having to healing like one(ew) in order to nuke.  No desire to play a Fury whatsoever.    My nuking does just fine DPS...I don't have to be Melee spec'd to have a good time with this class.</p><p>I might offer if you want to DPS, don't play a healer.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />   If you don't raid, I'm sure melee spec is fine.  I raid, and it isn't.   Something for everyone.</p>

[Dakkhon]

ok after reading alot of posts here and other ares I still have a question. I am currently lvl 22 on my warden and I have 5/5 in the warden line so I can get the 75% crit. I have found that the reuse timers on the melee are extremely slow. So I rarely use them because of that reason. My spells seem to fire off faster especially Flame. I can kill pvp faster with spells just due to the reuse issue. So am I missing something here on the dps?  Also it's hard to get gear for the warden it seems on the broker. Are there any certain quests I should be doing to get decent armor? Thanks for any help you can give.

[Karlen]

<span class="postbody">>>>Sure, if you have 500 STR and 100 INT, your CAs are going to do more damage than your spells... With 500 INT ad 100 STR you're spells are going to a lot more damage than your CAs.<<<In the 500 STR/100 INT scenario, your autoattack damage will be significantly higher as well.</span>

[Skivley101]

<cite>Dakkhon wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok after reading alot of posts here and other ares I still have a question. I am currently lvl 22 on my warden and I have 5/5 in the warden line so I can get the 75% crit. I have found that the reuse timers on the melee are extremely slow. So I rarely use them because of that reason. My spells seem to fire off faster especially Flame. I can kill pvp faster with spells just due to the reuse issue. So am I missing something here on the dps?  Also it's hard to get gear for the warden it seems on the broker. Are there any certain quests I should be doing to get decent armor? Thanks for any help you can give. </blockquote><p>What your missing is the lvl 26 mele buff ... CA's are almost worthless untill you boost that skill beyond max cap. For some reason max cap mele skill is not as effective as max cap disruption. Maybe thats the mechanic the devs inplanted because of the 75% mele crits ,,, do the math there and youll see big diff in output dmg overtime with mele 75% vs spell cast crit of what 30%? .... </p><p>Basically your not landing mele hits enough to get the big boost from 75% mele crits compared to how much your landing spells.</p>

[Skivley101]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dakkhon wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok after reading alot of posts here and other ares I still have a question. I am currently lvl 22 on my warden and I have 5/5 in the warden line so I can get the 75% crit. I have found that the reuse timers on the melee are extremely slow. So I rarely use them because of that reason. My spells seem to fire off faster especially Flame. I can kill pvp faster with spells just due to the reuse issue. So am I missing something here on the dps?  Also it's hard to get gear for the warden it seems on the broker. Are there any certain quests I should be doing to get decent armor? Thanks for any help you can give. </blockquote><p>What your missing is the lvl 26 mele buff ... CA's are almost worthless untill you boost that skill beyond max cap. For some reason max cap mele skill is not as effective as max cap disruption. Maybe thats the mechanic the devs inplanted because of the 75% mele crits ,,, do the math there and youll see big diff in output dmg overtime with mele 75% vs spell cast crit of what 30%? .... </p><p>Basically your not landing mele hits enough to get the big boost from 75% mele crits compared to how much your landing spells.</p></blockquote><p>Let me plot the curve for you all ...</p><p>10 below max cap      = -15 modifier</p><p>0 max cap mod           = 0 mod</p><p>3 above max cap         = +7 mod</p><p>7 above max ca[          = + 15 mod</p><p>15 above max cap       = + 18 mod ...maybe plus 7</p><p>20 above max cap       = + 20 ....plus 10 to 20</p><p>25 ... getting in to the realm of a few points doesnt matter .... but your feeling cool</p><p>30 You can do waht youneed to do!! so stop asking stupind druid questions </p><p>35 im fealing like wrighting a computer program</p><p>105 ... just remember they made this world for us ...</p>

[Skivley101]

<p>except for the focus skill ... that one is invaluable ....boost it the highest</p><p>These are my highest to lowest skills</p><p> Focus, crush/slash , ordination, disrubtion, subjugation, ministration ... and maybe talksmakition</p><p>or it might be dip,duck,dodge,& dipping ducking dodging and freaking diveing ...</p><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>and my lowest skill= >>>" ministration"  is +10 of max skill ... i dont believe in just good enough to get by ... thats sort of seems to me method ... and my curve plot is seems to me ... but +  >>>^^^ </p>

[Skivley101]

<cite>Skivley101 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>except for the focus skill ... that one is invaluable ....boost it the highest</p><p>These are my highest to lowest skills</p><p> Focus, crush/slash , ordination, disrubtion, subjugation, ministration ... and maybe talksmakition</p><p>or it might be dip,duck,dodge,& dipping ducking dodging and freaking diveing ...</p><p><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>and my lowest skill= >>>" ministration"  is +10 of max skill ... i dont believe in just good enough to get by ... thats sort of seems to me method ... and my curve plot is seems to me ... but +  >>>^^^ </p></blockquote><p>Oh jeeze ... i see the math wiz has been at it again , Drunkin Droods, to much Chistmas cheer <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>This in no way was meant as correct information on the curve ... The peice of factual information i know is that 6.5 X your lvl is the benefit cap for skills , to a maximum benefit of 20% .... So you better do your own math <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p>