The Rending affected not only Norrath, but the Planes themselves. [Archive]

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Cusashorn

10-17-2007, 11:16 PM

The Shard of Fear zone starts you off by finding the journal of a dead gnome. He mentions that the Shard of Fear is the old remnants of the Plane of Fear, and it has been affected by the Rending as well. It's not just Norrath that recieved the devestating effects of the Rending.I threw this together with 5 minutes of MS paint.<img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/Cusashorn/ErnieGimblelocksAdventuringJournal.png" alt="" width="588" height="937" border="0" />

Nocturnal Aby

10-18-2007, 12:34 AM

In some ways, this makes sense, because from how I interpreted the Rending, the geographical/tectonic shifts on the surface of Norrath were caused by great chaos and tumult (or redecoratind, depending on how you look at it) of the Underfoot below the surface. From all we are able to read, it seems like it's hard to tell where the Underfoot of Norrath ends, and the Plane of Underfoot begins.

Rainmare

10-18-2007, 04:06 AM

but we've also been told by Vhalen that most of the ingame tidbits we find like journals, are from the perspective of the person writing. the gnome in question obviously thinks that the Shard of Fear is the result of the Rending, but who's to say that his assumption is correct? unless the missing journal pages reveal some information that this gnome has collected as evidence that the Rending affected the Plane of Fear, I would still argue that he just thinks it has, because he knows the stories of the old Plane of Fear.If I knew what a place was supposed to look like, and it doesn't look like that anymore, I might assume the same at first as well. but these are the Planes. the Rending was specifically used by the gods to destroy the unification of the mortals on Norrath. why would they sever parts of thier own planes? just in case we found a way to activate the Fear portal? It seems unlikely.

troodon

10-18-2007, 04:16 AM

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>the Rending was specifically used by the gods to destroy the unification of the mortals on Norrath. </blockquote>No, teleportation was shut down in order to destroy the unification of Norrath's mortals. We don't know what caused the Rending.If we assume that the Rending and the severing of the shards (Fear, Hate, and possibly Sky) from their home planes are related then I think Nocturnal Abyss is on the right track. The Rending wasn't actually something that was done to Norrath, it was something that was done to the Plane of Underfoot that simply happened to affect Norrath in a horrifying manner. I find this most intriguing.

teddyboy4

10-18-2007, 04:28 PM

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>the Rending was specifically used by the gods to destroy the unification of the mortals on Norrath. </blockquote>No, teleportation was shut down in order to destroy the unification of Norrath's mortals. We don't know what caused the Rending.If we assume that the Rending and the severing of the shards (Fear, Hate, and possibly Sky) from their home planes are related then I think Nocturnal Abyss is on the right track. The Rending wasn't actually something that was done to Norrath, it was something that was done to the Plane of Underfoot that simply happened to affect Norrath in a horrifying manner. I find this most intriguing.</blockquote>Actually, Rainy is correct, but in a way you are too troodon. The shutting down of the mortals means of teleportation was indeed meant to break the unity of the mortals, but the Rending, I believe, was also part of this plan. In fact, the sutting down of teleportation would in no way be enough to break the unity of the mortals, only the effects of the Rending AND not having the ability to teleport would have such an affect. As for the Plane of Underfoot and the Underfoot being one in the same....that isn't entirely true. The Plane of Underfoot is separated from The Underfoot of Norrath by huge vault-like doors. This is evidenced most clearly in The Hole on Odus which, in some places, breached the Underfoot of Norrath and revealed a huge vault-like door which eventually was breached and started to allow some of the residents of the Plane of Underfoot into Norrath. In my opinion, the Rending was definitely part of the plan of the gods to disrupt the unity of the mortals, but it may have had farther reaching effects then the gods intended. I don't believe however that The Rending is something that occurred on the Planes and also had an affect on Norrath. I think it far more likely that the gods initiated the Rending on Norrath and inadvertently damaged their own planes in the process.That being said though, I'm not sure I believe the assumptions of this Gnome that The Rending is responsible for these pieces of the Planes that have been, and continue to, seep into Norrath. It certainly is quite a mystery, and the fact that these are Shards of the Planes, and not the entire Planes may be indicative of some larger event that we are currentely unaware of. Maybe during those 500 years when the gods withdrew from Norrath there was some kind of war amongst the gods, or someone or something made war on the gods? Maybe The Rending and The Shattering were NOT part of the gods plan but rather the effects of something else? There is some evidence that The Shattering may have been the work of Kerafyrm, well maybe The Rending was something that was caused by him as well? We have clues that Kerfyrm may have set off to find and confront Veshan, well maybe he also found, and confronted the gods and caused such a ruckus as to cause The Rending and later The Shattering? Either way it'll certainly be interesting to see how things unfold and to find out the true cause of all this.

troodon

10-18-2007, 04:48 PM

<cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>but the Rending, I believe, was also part of this plan. </blockquote>I haven't seen any evidence to support this claim. <blockquote>As for the Plane of Underfoot and the Underfoot being one in the same....</blockquote>The Plane of the Underfoot doesn't have to be the actual Underfoot for it to affect Norrath if something terrible happens there.

einar4

10-18-2007, 05:10 PM

The rending is a big mystery. It happened after the Rallosian Empire was defeated, and those gods that tried to meddle in the affairs of Norrath outside of the agreement pact of the Gods took place. There has not been much in game lore about why it must have happened. Perhaps after the gods had tried to meddle in the affairs of Norrath, the Gods engaged in some kind of strife that caused Norrath to shudder, the seas to boil and the earth to quake. There is a kind of hint in the old lore story when EQ2 first released, an ominous threat as one of the Avatars was killed, that the suffereing of Norrath was only beginning. If the rending was the result of some kind of war akin to Ragnarok, the shards could be a result of that. Cracks in the fortresses of the gods, so to speak.

Coniaric

10-18-2007, 05:28 PM

From what I seen so far, it appears that Norrath and the Planes are more closely linked than previously thought. While they may be not one and the same, they are linked somehow. Also the Rending seems to have an ripple effect that are more widespread, more than anyone may have thought, maybe even the gods themselves didn't realize the ramifications of their withdrawal from Norrath. In Tome of Destiny, each one at the council agreed to seven mortal days to make their arrangements and set things in motion and countermotions in effect. Then they withdrew after 7th day is up. But what had been agreed upon is cut out of the conversation - what Quellious had offered is non-destructive ways to correct their situation - but what was the solution?Here is snippet of the tome:Quellious had listened to the bickering for what seemed like ages. Though time had no meaning for them in this place, she could bear to listen no longer. She spoke softly, yet with a directness that silenced the others. "I propose a compromise," she said, her gaze moving from one god to the next. "It will not be ideal for any of us, and it does not come without risk. But I feel it is the only way to satisfy all our objectives and restore balance between us and the mortals." Bristlebane perked an ear. "Speak, please, for this endless debate is maddening even for me." Quellious continued. "We all agree the mortals have gained too much power, but there are non-destructive ways to correct this. There is also a way for us to regain our strength, though it means removing our influence from this world for a time. But if we all agree--including those who sit upon the greater wheel of Elemental Power--it could save us all." "Speak, Tranquil One," Xegony said, breaking her long silence. "We will listen to your proposal." Quellious nodded. "It is through their unity that the mortals initially became strong. The first thing we must do is to disrupt that unity..." When Quellious had finished, Erollisi Marr nodded. "It would be an acceptable compromise." The Rending of Norrath is destructive and the impact appeared to affect the Planes. Luclin was cut off from Norrath and teleportation shut down (that appeared to be part of the solution) ... but then centuries later, it shattered. Was it the risk Quellious spoke of that resulted in those events?Also, the war between gods will sap their strength even more, and their power is already weakened back then. I'm not so sure they're willing to fight each other and be defeated - using up even more power. No ... I don't believe they will confront each other personally, but they can use their influence (avatars) on Norrath to turn things to their favor (2nd Rallosian War, for example).Whatever it is, though, I'll agree there is something more than what being revealed so far.

Coniaric

10-18-2007, 06:37 PM

<cite>Ikarri@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The rending is a big mystery. It happened after the Rallosian Empire was defeated, and those gods that tried to meddle in the affairs of Norrath outside of the agreement pact of the Gods took place. There has not been much in game lore about why it must have happened. Perhaps after the gods had tried to meddle in the affairs of Norrath, the Gods engaged in some kind of strife that caused Norrath to shudder, the seas to boil and the earth to quake. There is a kind of hint in the old lore story when EQ2 first released, an ominous threat as one of the Avatars was killed, that the suffereing of Norrath was only beginning. If the rending was the result of some kind of war akin to Ragnarok, the shards could be a result of that. Cracks in the fortresses of the gods, so to speak.</blockquote>Actually the "meddling" already started right after the council was adjorned which is:The gods began to leave the chambers, but Quellious lingered. She noticed as Rallos approached Cazic-Thule and began to whisper something to him, and watched as Solusek Ro did the same to Brell. Tunare stood next to her. "Is this really the only way?" "I believe it is," Quellious responded softly. "But I think we need to remain watchful, as not everyone may honor the intent of this pact." Karana approached the two goddesses. "I have some trepidation in this matter, and I'd wager you feel the same." "I do," replied Quellious. "But I have another proposal to share with the two of you to ensure our interests are preserved." As the three gods left the council chamber together, Rallos Zek eyed them loathingly. He muttered to himself. "So, Quellious, you have your allies and I have mine. But your weakness will be your downfall. Let the endgame begin."This thing resulted in the 2nd Rallosian War, I believe. Then afterward was the Rending and the Shattering, plus whatever other disasters that occured. In any battle, there is strikes and countertrikes - this is probably what the avatars are used for since the gods themselves are absent by then. Quellious had prepared her avatar for any eventualities, as mentioned here:"You will be my presence in this land, disciple. You will preserve the ways of Tranquility and teach my principles as the world drifts toward despair. You will be my voice when I must be silent." He nodded. "I will do this gladly and with great honor, mistress. All the lands of Norrath and the skies above will know your teachings." She grew quiet a moment, her eyes looking toward the moon of Luclin as it glowed brightly above them. Her brow furrowed slightly. "There is more to tell, and time is short. Walk with me, Avatar of Tranquility, and hear my words." I'm sure other avatars too got their instructions for anything that could / would happen. It is probable that the deities knew Luclin will be cut off soon.The threat made by Avatar of Flames, this might mean Solusek Ro had something in mind - earlier he had spoken to Brell - but has this changed when Solusek's avatar used Brell's creations in the attack (by setting gnolls on fire and send them toward Qeynos' gates)? The Rending happened in the Underfoot which also includes the plane of Brell himself and it changed the surface of Norrath, and extending into the Planes. I think more clues may be discovered if the Underfoot is opened for exploration one day.

Cusashorn

10-18-2007, 07:36 PM

Yeah the Rending was caused to intentionally break up the continents and make it harder for mortals to unite with each other across the seas.

troodon

10-18-2007, 10:39 PM

Why do you think that's the case? The Norrathians were already bumming pretty badly, I don't see why it would have been necessary.Such an explanation simply totally disregards the information given by the Gnome's journal. It is possible that he's completely incorrect, but I can't think of any examples where the devs gave us in-game info that turned out to be completely false (you can't count the Deception quest line... just look at the name). The mere dramatic shifting of Norrath's crustal plates doesn't explain how shards of Fear and Hate (and possibly Sky, in KoS) have been severed from their planes. Without the Rending as the cause we are left without any explanation.

Gukkor2

10-19-2007, 03:47 AM

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why do you think that's the case? The Norrathians were already bumming pretty badly, I don't see why it would have been necessary.Such an explanation simply totally disregards the information given by the Gnome's journal. It is possible that he's completely incorrect, but I can't think of any examples where the devs gave us in-game info that turned out to be completely false (you can't count the Deception quest line... just look at the name). The mere dramatic shifting of Norrath's crustal plates doesn't explain how shards of Fear and Hate (and possibly Sky, in KoS) have been severed from their planes. Without the Rending as the cause we are left without any explanation.</blockquote>Who's to say that there is an explanation at this point? We've only encountered a couple fragmented planes thus far, and I have a feeling there's much more to the story than has been revealed.

troodon

10-19-2007, 04:18 AM

<cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Who's to say that there is an explanation at this point? We've only encountered a couple fragmented planes thus far, and I have a feeling there's much more to the story than has been revealed.</blockquote>No one, they may not have given us the correct explanation; I said that was possible. But they have given us an explanation, and I think it's silly to dismiss it out of hand simply because you have it fixed in your mind that the Rending must have been a punishment from the gods.

troodon

10-19-2007, 05:09 AM

Let me try and make a case against the story that most of us accepted, that the Rending was used either as punishment against Norrathians or as a tool to stop us from reunifying.1) It is totally out of character for Brell Serilis, the god normally associated with things that happen underground (like plate tectonics). Brell is neutral, he took no sides in the 2nd Rallosian War until the Avatar of Flame double crossed him, and he actually argued against total destruction in the council of the gods. The only other time we know of him breaking open the earth for the sake of killing people, he did so very carefully and only to part of the Rallosian army; this is totally unlike causing massive earthquakes across the planet that kill tens of thousands of people totally uninvolved with invading the planes.The other possibility is the Rathe, who are not known to have been a part of the council of the gods and mysteriously made no effort to impede the progress of the mortals until hundreds of years after they had been slain in the Age of Turmoil. Also, the only other time the planes were invaded the Rathe only cursed those involved with the attack; they did not trigger a global catastrophe.2) The Rending occurred several hundred years after the invasion of the planes, far too late to consider it an act of punishment. When the Rathe created their curse as punishment for the 1st Rallosian War, it was done immediately after they had stopped the invasion. When Cazic Thule punished the Ogres for defiling his temple, he released the Greenmist in very shortly after that had happened.3) The mortals were in no position to threaten the gods at the time, and any suggestion that the Rending was used to keep them from unifying against the gods does not square with the facts. The 2nd Rallosian War had ended relatively recently leaving the following situation:<ul><li>Qeynos and Freeport were in dire straits trying to maintain order after very nearly losing the Battle of Defiance. </li><li>The Guktan Frogoks were almost extinct. </li><li>The Ogres were reduced to a few bands looking for Frogloks in the Feerrott and those living in Freeport. </li><li>The Trolls were methodically exterminated and driven from Innothule by the Rallosian army. </li><li>The Barbarians were trying to rebuild Halas after its fall to the Snow Orcs. </li><li>The Dark Elves were sealed off in Neriak. </li><li>The Halflings had lost what we can assume to be a large portion of their military during the failed attack on Neriak.</li><li>Kelethin had been burned and the Wood Elves had to turn to the Fae for help in rebuilding it.</li><li>The High Elves had suffered major losses during the War of the Fay and turned isolationist and xenophobic.</li><li>The Erudites and the Vah'Shir had both been cut off from the rest of the mortals since the invasion of the Nexus.</li></ul>There is quite possibly no other time in history when Norrathians were more cut off from each other and more isolationist, dealing with their own troubles, than when the Rending happened. It was absolutely unnecessary because there was no threat posed by Norrath at that time or at any time in the foreseeable future. All but three of the major races were already totally preoccupied with other tasks and uninterested in dealing with others; and of the three not already in severe trouble (Dwarves, Gnomes, and [as far as we know] Iksar), two were on a continent relatively unaffected by the Rending anyways! (though they ended up with their own, non-Rending related problems)The story we've been using to explain the Rending was never sensical nor wholly satisfactory, I find this new theory about it being a mere side effect of bad things happening in the planes to be much more fulfilling and much more reasonable.

DreamerClou

10-19-2007, 06:20 AM

Maybe the Rending occured / was put into motion to actually unify the mortals. It pretty much forced the previously scattered Norrathians to condense into two cities rather than the 10+ cities they were in. It kind of forced them to work together somewhat. Maybe the gods needed the mortals to unite and gain power against something else? Shadowmen?Or perhaps by the gods initially withdrawing it caused followers to lose faith which caused an ever increasing weakening of the planes themselves?

zerfall

10-19-2007, 10:02 AM

This is actually the first thread I can remember reading that has proposed int it that The Rending was a direct action by the gods against Norrath's mortals. I had always thought of The Rending as an unintended side-effect of the gods removing their influence and cutting off the planes.However, someone above (teddyboy420) mentioned the theory of Kerafyrm, rather than the Dresolisk, causing The Shattering and the possibility of him being the case of The Rending as well. Why not? We know that Kerafyrm caused untold destruction on the Claws of Veeshan in Velious then flew off to try to find Veeshan. We know that in the EQLive timeline he is still alive and in Faydwer, but in EQ2's timeline perhaps he found the dragon goddess and an epic struggle took place, causing initially The Rending. It certainly could explain parts of Sky bleeding into Norrath's upper atmosphere, and if that were to occur why not to the other planes as well? (Think Godzilla and... Mothra? battling across Japan or whatever) Perhaps the shards of Fear and Hate have always been separated from the actual planes, but only recently have mortals found their way back into them. Then imagine if you will Kerafyrm being "thrown" towards Luclin... with enough force I could see that causing the moon to shatter.Of course, this is all just speculation with no real evidence, but I don't see why it can't be plausible. No one truly knows for a fact what caused The Rending and The Shattering (not even you Cusa). While some evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, points to some theories, that's all the devs have ever offered... theories and never 100% fact on the whole story.

Lodrelhai

10-19-2007, 12:40 PM

Prior to GU 39 going live, I'd theorized that the Rending may have been a reflection on Norrath of something happening on the planes - and a godwar against Kerafym is still my highest bet. Droag lore tells us they used to hear Veeshan, but then they couldn't anymore. Now they're in the same boat with Kerafym - he was leading them, now he's silent. My guess is Kerafym beat went after Veeshan, beat her, then turned his attention to the other gods or the other gods interfered with him attempting to attack Norrath. Collossal battles, a few planes shattered or pieces broken off... welcome to the Shards!Not to say there aren't other possibilities, of course... I don't suppose anyone who's been in Shard of Fear has spotted nightbloods?

Alikari

10-19-2007, 02:15 PM

as for the rending.. i still believe it was part of the gods push at seperating norrathians.. just because so much time happened between the events of their withdrawal, disabling of teleportation, and the rending means nothing.. because.. time works different for them than us. as for the planes deteriorating. the gods withdrew themselves to regain power.. i see the planes and the minions within, as extensions of those gods.. with all the invading and pillaging of the planes, the destructions of their mortal forms/avatars, and the effort they put into the plane of time debacle.. they probably severed themselves from the old planes so they no longer had to use their energy to maintain them. so the planes begin to break apart and bleed into our existance.

Cusashorn

10-19-2007, 03:04 PM

<cite>Zerfall@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one truly knows for a fact what caused The Rending and The Shattering (not even you Cusa). </blockquote>I never claimed that I ever did.

Rainmare

10-19-2007, 04:18 PM

I still think the Rending was a divine act for a few reasons.1. all/most of the races were given instructions, via dreams, to get the hell out of thier lands and move to Qeynos/Freeport for safety. some heeding the dreams as divine messages, others ignored them as just dreams.2. the Rending, if you look at it, further seperated mortals. the seas became and in some cases still are, treacherous and nearly unpassable. the only two relatively safe places, due to it, are now located on little islands, with one surviving city known at the time. though Kelethin and Neriak have survived the Rending as well, as we've recently found out. Majdul was born after the rending, when the Dervish tribes had to unite or die, having no access to outside lands/supplies3. Faydwer is MUCH different thanks to the rending. take a look at BB in EQ1, and take a look at it in EQ2. take a look at the Gfay forest in eq1, and take a look at it in EQ2. the loping plains weren't even accessable. Dagnor's Cauldron has been completely consumed by the water, save for the Estate of Unrest. about the only EoF zone that has had little change is Steamfont.4. the only places we've known that are planar in origin are the shards of Fear and Hate, and the Shimmering Citadel, that supposedly bled from the plane of sky. the Overrealm, to my knowledge, has nothing associated to it to say it was from PoS. the way I took it was as a dragonic kingdom that we simply didn't know about...perhaps something created by Kerafyrm for his Cult of the Awakened.I think the dreams were a divine message, and it was sent becuase the gods were about to cause the Rending. it was a get your [Removed for Content] to this place, or lose it. if it had been some kind of 'side effect' or 'event' that they hadn't been able to predict, thus beyond thier control...how did they know to warn mortals to get to the cities they apparently knew were going to survive it?

Coniaric

10-19-2007, 04:56 PM

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still think the Rending was a divine act for a few reasons.1. all/most of the races were given instructions, via dreams, to get the hell out of thier lands and move to Qeynos/Freeport for safety. some heeding the dreams as divine messages, others ignored them as just dreams.2. the Rending, if you look at it, further seperated mortals. the seas became and in some cases still are, treacherous and nearly unpassable. the only two relatively safe places, due to it, are now located on little islands, with one surviving city known at the time. though Kelethin and Neriak have survived the Rending as well, as we've recently found out. Majdul was born after the rending, when the Dervish tribes had to unite or die, having no access to outside lands/supplies3. Faydwer is MUCH different thanks to the rending. take a look at BB in EQ1, and take a look at it in EQ2. take a look at the Gfay forest in eq1, and take a look at it in EQ2. the loping plains weren't even accessable. Dagnor's Cauldron has been completely consumed by the water, save for the Estate of Unrest. about the only EoF zone that has had little change is Steamfont.4. the only places we've known that are planar in origin are the shards of Fear and Hate, and the Shimmering Citadel, that supposedly bled from the plane of sky. the Overrealm, to my knowledge, has nothing associated to it to say it was from PoS. the way I took it was as a dragonic kingdom that we simply didn't know about...perhaps something created by Kerafyrm for his Cult of the Awakened.I think the dreams were a divine message, and it was sent becuase the gods were about to cause the Rending. it was a get your [I cannot control my vocabulary] to this place, or lose it. if it had been some kind of 'side effect' or 'event' that they hadn't been able to predict, thus beyond thier control...how did they know to warn mortals to get to the cities they apparently knew were going to survive it?</blockquote>1) I do remember this. Population did get dreams prior to the Rending - telling them to go to Freeport or Qeynos, or otherwise they'll be destroyed. I think it's mostly those who are living, or present, in Antonica, though, since it got the biggest hit.2) Neriak probably survived because it was closer to the surface - rest of the dark elf empire may had serious damage further below.3) The Rending hit western edge of Faydwer - Butcherblock Mts mainly ... the eastern part including the Faydarks, Steamfont, Loping Plains, etc aren't as badly hit. (Loping Plains is accessible now in EQ1, though.) The location of Estate of Unrest bothered me a little ... Dagnor's Cauldron is, or was, a volcanic crater, with Kedge Keep at bottom. It's like the rock formation Unrest is on moved forward over the remains of Cauldron closer to Butcherblock.4) The Overrealm is what left of the Plane of Sky. Shimmering Citadel was previously a part of Plane of Sky before it was "stolen" by the vizer of Maj'Dul (There was a whole line describing this - Ring of Fate quest line). There are npcs that talk about the plane leaking into Norrath - Jabber Longwind, for one, I think. Anyway, dragons appeared to have taken over sections of the plane after it materalized over Norrath and turned them into a draconic kingdom of the Awakened. And, yeah ... Kerafyrm is, or maybe was, at the head of this cult.While dreams may be a divine message - it still doesn't mean the Rending is a planned event. It could have been a situation that got out of control and the races had to be warned. Or you could be correct in that it's in the gods' plan.

teddyboy4

10-19-2007, 06:45 PM

I had actually forgotten that certain mortals had started receiving dreams warning them to make their way to the Human cities of Qeynos and Freeport, but that lends even more credibility to the idea that The Rending was a divine act. I don't know, ever since I first heard the lore about what was going on in those 500 years in the Tome of Destiny and other places before release, I had always thought that The Rending was part of the gods plans to disrupt the mortals unity. I mean, first they cut off teleportation, which broke some of the unity. then the wars which turned race against race as the mortals rallied behind their gods avatars or traveled to join the armies in Qeynos and Freeport which even further disrupted any unity the mortals achieved. Then, in one last stroke, they performed The Rending which isolated many of the races from each other and TOTALLY DESTROYED any chance of mortal unity while the gods influence was withdrawn. Then came The Shattering.....now, The Shattering I'm not sure was a part of the gods plan, but that's a topic for another thread.Oh, about the location of Unrest....I was kind of put-off by the location of Unrest in EQ2 at first, but then I started thinking about where the estate was and the geography of the area. In EQlive the entrance to the Estate of Unrest was located in Dagnors Cauldron which, as we all know, was right next to the Butcherblock Mountains. However, the Estate was in the mountains that separated Dagnors Cauldron and Butcherblock. That being said, it is entirely reasonable to assume that The Rending caused some massive damage to Dagnors Cauldrong, possibly even destroying it (do we know what happened to Dagnors Cauldron exactly? I don't think I've come across any word regarding the state of it), but apparently the estate survived and in the turmoil a new entrance to it was made through the Butcherblock Mountains. Eh, coooouuulllddd beeeeeee..........

Coniaric

10-19-2007, 08:44 PM

It's odd, though. The gods go "Yeah, we're breaking up the world and divide you all to teach you all a lesson not to invade our home realms" ... then the Rending happens ... the gods then go, "Oops, we broke up our home realms too."One would think they're smarter than this.

troodon

10-19-2007, 09:06 PM

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>I still think the Rending was a divine act for a few reasons.1. all/most of the races were given instructions, via dreams, to get the hell out of thier lands and move to Qeynos/Freeport for safety. some heeding the dreams as divine messages, others ignored them as just dreams.</blockquote>The races were given dreams to come to the human cities to fight in the Rallosian War. The good gods wanted the races to pool there so that they could fight. If they were told to come to these cities to avoid the Rending then why did huge sections of Freeport fall into the ground, killing thousands? That is exactly what the Tome of Destiny describes. <blockquote>2. the Rending, if you look at it, further seperated mortals. the seas became and in some cases still are, treacherous and nearly unpassable. the only two relatively safe places, due to it, are now located on little islands, with one surviving city known at the time. though Kelethin and Neriak have survived the Rending as well, as we've recently found out. Majdul was born after the rending, when the Dervish tribes had to unite or die, having no access to outside lands/supplies</blockquote>As I pointed out in my post, the mortals were already totally separated from one another and there was no need for the Rending to occur. If it had happened before the Rallosian War it obviously fits with the motivation of driving them apart but it didn't, and so it doesn't.<blockquote>3. Faydwer is MUCH different thanks to the rending. take a look at BB in EQ1, and take a look at it in EQ2. take a look at the Gfay forest in eq1, and take a look at it in EQ2. the loping plains weren't even accessable. Dagnor's Cauldron has been completely consumed by the water, save for the Estate of Unrest. about the only EoF zone that has had little change is Steamfont.</blockquote>You're correct. All you've done is establish that Brell's races were hit somewhat too.<blockquote>4. the only places we've known that are planar in origin are the shards of Fear and Hate, and the Shimmering Citadel, that supposedly bled from the plane of sky. the Overrealm, to my knowledge, has nothing associated to it to say it was from PoS. the way I took it was as a dragonic kingdom that we simply didn't know about...perhaps something created by Kerafyrm for his Cult of the Awakened.</blockquote>As a previous poster pointed out, Jabber Longwind tells you that they are part of Plane of Sky when you first get up there. I also recall a dev post clarifying that the Overrealm was only a part of the plane, but I can't seem to find it.<blockquote>I think the dreams were a divine message, and it was sent becuase the gods were about to cause the Rending. it was a get your [I cannot control my vocabulary] to this place, or lose it. if it had been some kind of 'side effect' or 'event' that they hadn't been able to predict, thus beyond thier control...how did they know to warn mortals to get to the cities they apparently knew were going to survive it?</blockquote>As I pointed out, you're totally incorrect about why mortals got dreams. The ones given dreams were meant to go to Freeport and Qeynos for the sake of fighting the Rallosians.You guys are honestly not looking at this empirically enough. You're holding on desparately to this notion that the Rending was a deliberate act of the gods, when we have no actual evidence to suggest this. Forget how sensical or nonsensical the act would be, you have no evidence that they did it; just pure speculation. On the other hand we have an ingame source actually telling us that the Rending was something that happened in the planes, not to Norrath, and so many people here irrationally abandon it because it's something different than what they'd previously thought. Why would you doubt the source? He obviously had some reason to think this that we aren't privy to at the moment.. unless you think some schizophrenic Gnome living in his own imaginary world would be employed by the DoGS and would be capable of sneaking through large portions of the Shard of Fear on his own.It wouldn't be the only piece of the lore we accept on this board comes from a single source. That the Shadowedmen are targetting Wuoshi comes from a single piece of paper in OoB. Before the Stormhammer quest came along, the notion that something called the Black Sun Sea exists in the Underfoot came from a single (possibly drunken) Dwarf in the Peacock Club... I didn't see anyone on this board questioning that lore bit.

Zabjade

10-19-2007, 10:28 PM

I'm wondering if the stutting down of the teleportation caused a backlash effect that the godlings where not aware would happen after all none of them are omniescient [sp] most only paying attention tho their aspects or schemes to have a larger overview.Only The Nameless (Who is inscrutible), Veeshan(Who could care less) and with a SLIGHT possibly Ro would have such an overview

Rainmare

10-19-2007, 11:15 PM

There's no evidence other than that gnome's partial journal to say that the Rending effected the planes. and even then, the gnome states himself, that the only reason he even knew there was more to the plane than he saw was old stories about it. if the missing pages, that complete the journal show something more than the gnome going 'gee, this isn't all the plane of Fear...the rending must have torn it up too' then I'll happily say alright, we know the rending wasn't a direct act of the gods.and honestly, judging from the SoD line...I wouldn't put much faith in the Gnomeland Security forces for anything. that senile old investigator that they apparently are still using even though the man is clearly senile is proof enough to doubt thier 'selection' process as anything more than 'oh look, your a gnome. welcome to gnomeland security'.and the gnome didn't go in there alone. and none of his team survived. including him from what I gather, because even though he was the only one left, he was still dumb enough to go looking for a pair of goggles. If all my protection died, and I know I'm a there for research/investigation...I would be making sure what I found out lived with me. he doesn't. he seems more obsessive about trying out his tinker toys then anything else.Now if the completed tome says something about him finding out something that obviously points to the Rending, other than 'this isn't the plane of fear I was told about, parts are missing' then that's something. But lets say your right. the Rending tore into the planes as well. so then, why are the only planes affected being the planes of dieties that 1. don't give a hoot about norrath, and 2. Wanted to spread thier influences on norrath more so to solve this problem in the first place. you'd think, if this was a larger catastrophe that effected the planes of some of the more important Norrathian gods, that we'd be seeing much greater repercussions than what we have. even if it is only in lore form. you'd think something that rocks the planes would have a bit more referance about it than we have.And I could say that it wasn't to face the Rallosians at all. Quellious talks about it herself, about certain parties not honoring the intent of thier pact. like I don't think that Soluesk was supposed to bring Dresolisk to Luclin, and along that vein, I don't think they intended for Rallos to give the Avatar of War Soulfire and rebuild the Rallosian empire. As we recall, Rallos' original idea was to wipe us out. I think he took to the plan to not wipe us out, but bent the logic to apply that to make sure only his creations were left. ie I can't kill 'the' mortals, but I can make sure the mortals left are loyal only to me.Other than the Rallosian Empire, the timetable works fine for the godly acts to disrupt and divide the mortals. they cut off teleportation, activate the Rending to destory/distort the continents, make the seas impassable. further dividing the mortals and segregating them into two camps. I don't think the Shattering, however, was part of the original plan. I think that was Soleusk throwing a diety temper tantrum by blowing up a planet with the device he originally intended to send to Norrath.though this imformation form the gnome makes me want to go in there and find the missing pages, to know how/why the gnome thinks the Rending directly created teh shard.

troodon

10-19-2007, 11:36 PM

<cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>But lets say your right. the Rending tore into the planes as well. so then, why are the only planes affected being the planes of dieties that 1. don't give a hoot about norrath, and 2. Wanted to spread thier influences on norrath more so to solve this problem in the first place. </blockquote>Dude, we don't know what planes were affected. We have shards from Fear, Hate, and Sky so far; why on earth would you think they're the only examples?Quite honestly I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. We'll find out the truth eventually.

Coniaric

10-20-2007, 03:55 AM

I believe that is the point ... the gnome's journal merely expanded what could have happened in last 500 years (300 or so since the Rending).What we learned here is that the Rending may have an impact on the planes of the dieties, not just Norrath. Or it may not. It's just a new possibilty of what could have happened after the gods set their plans in motion and withdrew from Norrath.Now, the deities had just returned a year ago (real time) and we're learning more things, new things, about them and what they had done.And with Rise of Kunark: Karana, the Tribunal, and Bertoxxulous will return to add their influence. Maybe with them, we'll find out more.

teddyboy4

10-20-2007, 07:19 AM

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rainy wrote:</cite><blockquote>But lets say your right. the Rending tore into the planes as well. so then, why are the only planes affected being the planes of dieties that 1. don't give a hoot about norrath, and 2. Wanted to spread thier influences on norrath more so to solve this problem in the first place. </blockquote>Dude, we don't know what planes were affected. We have shards from Fear, Hate, and Sky so far; why on earth would you think they're the only examples?Quite honestly I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. We'll find out the truth eventually.</blockquote>The whole point of these forums is to discuss the lore that we are presented. Yeah, we may find out the truth eventually, but if everyone just took the attitude that we shouldn't discuss it and just wait to find out then they might as well close down this forum now.I have to agree that the source we have is HIGHLY suspect. As Rainy pointed out, this is an old Gnome from Gnomeland Security who is more interested in testing out his toys then worrying about his own survival. He is basing his theory on what he has personally experienced in the Rending and what he was told, by other Gnomes mind you. He knows that the Rending tore apart Norrath, so when he enters the Shard of Fear his first reaction is to go 'oh look, this is only a piece of the old Plane of Fear as I was told what the Plane was like. Seeing as it's "broken" it must have been the Rending that did it." And even though we have no definitive source saying that The Rending was indeed the work of the gods, it most certainly does fit in with what they were trying to accomplish which was the separation of the mortals so they would stop working together. Obviously their intent was to turn the mortals focus from working together to discern the greater mysteries of the world, and have them focus on something else. What better way to do this then to turn their world upside-down as it were by ripping the place apart. The Rending also very conveniently broke up existing continents so that many races and people were completely isolated from each other. I don't know, we may not have any direct evidence saying that the gods performed The Rending, but it sure does fit in with what they were trying to accomplish and did indeed act to further separate the mortals from each other. The bottom line is this.....The mortals were NOT isolated, or beaten down enough after the wars. Think about it, it is relatively easy to recover from a war or two? Yeah, there would certainly be much more distrust between the races, and even though teleportation was shut-down they could still, quite easily, travel from one place to another. Now, how easy is it to recover when the world beneath your feat is rent asunder, the seas are too violent to cross, and all means of teleportation are shut-down? So while we may not have some senile old Gnome telling us that it was the work of the gods, we do have common sense and the ability to see the WHOLE PICTURE, things that old Gnome did not have.

troodon

10-20-2007, 03:14 PM

<cite>Eandiil@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole point of these forums is to discuss the lore that we are presented. Yeah, we may find out the truth eventually, but if everyone just took the attitude that we shouldn't discuss it and just wait to find out then they might as well close down this forum now.</blockquote>I did want to discuss it, but there's not much a point in discussing it with people who aren't open to changing their minds. People who are biased towards a theory don't consciously realize it, so it's pointless to try and rationalize with them; all you can do is wait for more evidence to come to light and then try and make your case with that.It reminds me certain minority of paleontological researchers who insist that birds are descended from an unknown group of arboreal reptiles in the Triassic. They don't have any good reason to think this, and there is no evidence to suggest that such a group of animals ever existed, but they have such an irrational, subconscious abhorrence towards the idea of birds having dinosaurian ancestry that they will ignore all available evidence and cling rather blindly to their belief. For decades these people refused to listen to reason, and it's only now with the fossils we're getting out of the Yixian that we've really started to change some biased minds.I tried to reason with you guys for 2 pages, all I saw was hand waving and incorrect information. I'd rather just wait for more evidence than sit here in argue, plus, I have a sneaking suspicion that I have better things to do with my time <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Lodrelhai

10-20-2007, 09:32 PM

1. The gnome also says that the goggles allow him to see creatures that he cannot otherwise. It's not unreasonable to suspect that some of those invisible creatures may be hostile - even the trapped souls of other adventurers. When was the last time you ran across non-hostile undead that weren't enslaved to your necromancer friend? In that case, recovering the goggles becomes a survival necessity.2. It's been stated that the Rending could have been from the gods even though it happened centuries after the pact. While, yes, the gods do not necessarily exist on our timeline, consider that most of their acts towards and against us have been immediate. Cazic didn't wait a few years to unleash the Green Mist on the Rallosians, nor, as near as we can tell, was it decades between the pact of the gods going into place and the first of the gods moving to undermine that pact. Like teaching a naughty puppy to do his business outside, the gods understand that a punishment is most effective when given immediately after the wrongdoing.3. It seems to me that the Rending actually helped draw the races together. Prior to this, in all likelyhood, racial distrusts or separations were at their height. Who was going to trust the ogres again, now that their curse had been lifted and they'd raised swords against all others? Why should the dark elves have to cater to Lucan for a place to stay, when they could just as easily set up camps or even towns in Nektulos while searching for a way back to their homeland? What barbarian or wood elf would hide themselves safe in a human city with Halas and Kelethin to rebuild? When did anyone in their right mind trust an iksar, or an iksar in their right mind trust anyone else?Then the Rending happened. Suddenly recovery of these lost or damaged homelands was impossible. Suddenly mere survival depended on joining together with your neighbor, be he ogre or wood elf or human. Unity among the races became a necessity, rather than a convenience or means to better trade and exotic goods. People of all races came together in one of the two great cities of man, and from there began work to restore the world. When we found the Desert of Flame, the story was the same there - these scattered nomad tribes were forced to unify to survive, and now the city of Maj'Dul stands testament to that unity.If it was intended to drive the people apart, I don't think it succeeded too well.

Zabjade

10-20-2007, 10:40 PM

Well we are talking about a violent rip in the space/time-line even the godlings have been duplicated and split in twain by it. Not to mention the Paradox thrown in to boot.

kartikeya

10-24-2007, 11:43 AM

There have been hints at least since DoF that something really nasty has happened to the planes. If I remember right, one of the Djinn even say that the Plane of Sky is GONE. So more information along these lines really intrigues me.Truth is, for all the information we're given right there in the Tome of Destiny, we actually still don't know most of the very important 'whys' and 'whats' surrounding the gods' decision. Quellious makes a suggestion as to the solution about what to do about the mortals, and the other gods agree, if begrudgingly. We have no idea what that suggestion actually was, apart from it 'not being ideal for any of them' and it involving withdrawing from Norrath. They choose avatars to support their interests on Norrath while they're gone, and Tunare selects Woushi to take her flower to Faydwer and guard it (an interesting side-question: Faydwer was mostly spared from the horrors of the Rending and the Shattering. Did Tunare's bloom have anything to do with that? Did she choose Faydwer because it was the place her children lived and she wanted to protect them, or because she knew it would be spared most of the destruction and wanted her bloom to survive?) It seems really strange that Quellious would suggest the kind of total death and destruction that occurred. In fact, she specifically calls her solution 'non-destructive'. And yet, it's obvious that the avatars know something nastier is coming by the end of the 2nd Rallosian War. Not just the Avatar of Flames, but at the very least the Avatar of Storms clearly knows something more is on the horizon. The war itself and what follows seems to utterly contradict both what Quellious says her plan is, and what, arguably, Quellious could even suggest as a plan, given her nature. This also brings to mind the invasion of the Nexus--was /that/ part of the plan? It sure doesn't seem like a non-destructive solution either.In fact, given the way Quellious made her proposal, and given the total contradiction afterward, followed by the continued hints we're getting that the planes are a mess and bad things have happened on more than just the physical plane, nothing but the gods' withdrawal seems to be in keeping with what she likely suggested at the council. Maddeningly, we still don't know what happened, even though the gods have apparently started to return (for that matter, we don't know WHY they've returned. What changed? Was it just conveniently time to come back? If so, why does it seem as though at least part of the planes are in shambles?) The timeline is also really screwy. The attack on the Nexus seems to have happened around the same time as the gods choosing their avatars, and then there was the 2nd Rallosian War...and then a whole huge period of time in which nothing happened at all, followed by the Rending. Then, way, way, way after that, fifteen years roughly prior to game release, is the Shattering. If all of this was simply to punish the mortals, why wait until most of the people you want to punish are dead? For that matter, why the huge periods of time inbetween events? And above all, why is all of this completely contradictory to Quellious's description of her solution?Personal theory: something happened to screw with the compromise, almost immediately. By the end of the Rallosian War, the avatars know something terrible is coming. War takes time, and I believe the buildup to the Battle of Defiance was at least several months. They might have learned it in the beginning, or they might have learned it at some point before the end of the War. This brings up yet another question. The curse started to lift from Rallos's creations...why? Was this just because the gods had withdrawn? Was it because their power was weakening anyway? Was it intentional? If so, who did it? If Rallos was capable of lifting the curse, one would think he'd have done it beforehand. And if it was just a result of the gods withdrawing, why wasn't similar 'weakening' observed in things like nature? Why didn't the frogloks lose their blessings from Marr?To me, all of this suggests that something went very, very wrong. The dreams that various members of all the races received, telling them to go to Qeynos or Freeport, are also very telling. If the Rending was about dividing the mortals, why would they all be directed to human cities where they would have to work closely with each other? Sure, Qeynos and Freeport are opposed, but they're both mega-cities that have been fairly integrated in a way that no city before Shadowhaven was in EQ1. And for that matter, most of the races who stayed in their old homes have been confirmed as surviving, so far, and a lot of them suffered turmoil and catastrophe, but were not in danger of being wiped out. Who sent these dreams? It /seems/ to have been the gods, but then, isn't that breaking their decision to withdraw, quite a bit after the withdrawal happened? And unless I've got my timeline completely wrong, I"m pretty sure the dreams happened AFTER the 2nd Rallosian War ended, as they were being called to help rebuild the cities. What went wrong? Was it just a result of their withdrawing? If so, how would the avatars know what was coming so soon, unless this was the intended result? If this was the intended result, why would Quellious call it 'non-destructive'? Why did the Nexus get invaded? Was it necessary to destroy teleportation magic? If so, how is teleportation magic working again, without the Nexus as far as we know, and conveniently happening at the same time the gods return? Did the immediate interference in mortal affairs by creating avatars break the deal and cause a war in the pantheon? Did something ELSE show up to take advantage of the gods' weakness? Why, if withdrawing was supposed to strengthen the gods, have we seen nothing but evidence that something terrible happened to the planes? Was that, as suggested, just a result of the gods cutting themselves off? As the planes are a manifestation of the gods' consciousness, what does this say about the state the gods themselves might be in?And finally, why would the Shattering happen so very late in the timeline? Lore suggests Kerafyrm was involved. Nagafen claims he did it to 'save Norrath from the gods'. Darathar suggests he did it just to demonstrate his power. What part HAS Kerafyrm played in all of this? It sure doesn't seem efficient to his plans of revenge to have been hanging around idly for five hundred years while his armies build up, and then up and decide to destroy a moon one day. And where the heck is he now?

Gukkor2

10-24-2007, 09:59 PM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>There have been hints at least since DoF that something really nasty has happened to the planes. If I remember right, one of the Djinn even say that the Plane of Sky is GONE. So more information along these lines really intrigues me.Truth is, for all the information we're given right there in the Tome of Destiny, we actually still don't know most of the very important 'whys' and 'whats' surrounding the gods' decision. Quellious makes a suggestion as to the solution about what to do about the mortals, and the other gods agree, if begrudgingly. We have no idea what that suggestion actually was, apart from it 'not being ideal for any of them' and it involving withdrawing from Norrath. They choose avatars to support their interests on Norrath while they're gone, and Tunare selects Woushi to take her flower to Faydwer and guard it (an interesting side-question: Faydwer was mostly spared from the horrors of the Rending and the Shattering. Did Tunare's bloom have anything to do with that? Did she choose Faydwer because it was the place her children lived and she wanted to protect them, or because she knew it would be spared most of the destruction and wanted her bloom to survive?) It seems really strange that Quellious would suggest the kind of total death and destruction that occurred. In fact, she specifically calls her solution 'non-destructive'. And yet, it's obvious that the avatars know something nastier is coming by the end of the 2nd Rallosian War. Not just the Avatar of Flames, but at the very least the Avatar of Storms clearly knows something more is on the horizon. The war itself and what follows seems to utterly contradict both what Quellious says her plan is, and what, arguably, Quellious could even suggest as a plan, given her nature. This also brings to mind the invasion of the Nexus--was /that/ part of the plan? It sure doesn't seem like a non-destructive solution either.In fact, given the way Quellious made her proposal, and given the total contradiction afterward, followed by the continued hints we're getting that the planes are a mess and bad things have happened on more than just the physical plane, nothing but the gods' withdrawal seems to be in keeping with what she likely suggested at the council. Maddeningly, we still don't know what happened, even though the gods have apparently started to return (for that matter, we don't know WHY they've returned. What changed? Was it just conveniently time to come back? If so, why does it seem as though at least part of the planes are in shambles?) The timeline is also really screwy. The attack on the Nexus seems to have happened around the same time as the gods choosing their avatars, and then there was the 2nd Rallosian War...and then a whole huge period of time in which nothing happened at all, followed by the Rending. Then, way, way, way after that, fifteen years roughly prior to game release, is the Shattering. If all of this was simply to punish the mortals, why wait until most of the people you want to punish are dead? For that matter, why the huge periods of time inbetween events? And above all, why is all of this completely contradictory to Quellious's description of her solution?Personal theory: something happened to screw with the compromise, almost immediately. By the end of the Rallosian War, the avatars know something terrible is coming. War takes time, and I believe the buildup to the Battle of Defiance was at least several months. They might have learned it in the beginning, or they might have learned it at some point before the end of the War. This brings up yet another question. The curse started to lift from Rallos's creations...why? Was this just because the gods had withdrawn? Was it because their power was weakening anyway? Was it intentional? If so, who did it? If Rallos was capable of lifting the curse, one would think he'd have done it beforehand. And if it was just a result of the gods withdrawing, why wasn't similar 'weakening' observed in things like nature? Why didn't the frogloks lose their blessings from Marr?To me, all of this suggests that something went very, very wrong. The dreams that various members of all the races received, telling them to go to Qeynos or Freeport, are also very telling. If the Rending was about dividing the mortals, why would they all be directed to human cities where they would have to work closely with each other? Sure, Qeynos and Freeport are opposed, but they're both mega-cities that have been fairly integrated in a way that no city before Shadowhaven was in EQ1. And for that matter, most of the races who stayed in their old homes have been confirmed as surviving, so far, and a lot of them suffered turmoil and catastrophe, but were not in danger of being wiped out. Who sent these dreams? It /seems/ to have been the gods, but then, isn't that breaking their decision to withdraw, quite a bit after the withdrawal happened? And unless I've got my timeline completely wrong, I"m pretty sure the dreams happened AFTER the 2nd Rallosian War ended, as they were being called to help rebuild the cities. What went wrong? Was it just a result of their withdrawing? If so, how would the avatars know what was coming so soon, unless this was the intended result? If this was the intended result, why would Quellious call it 'non-destructive'? Why did the Nexus get invaded? Was it necessary to destroy teleportation magic? If so, how is teleportation magic working again, without the Nexus as far as we know, and conveniently happening at the same time the gods return? Did the immediate interference in mortal affairs by creating avatars break the deal and cause a war in the pantheon? Did something ELSE show up to take advantage of the gods' weakness? Why, if withdrawing was supposed to strengthen the gods, have we seen nothing but evidence that something terrible happened to the planes? Was that, as suggested, just a result of the gods cutting themselves off? As the planes are a manifestation of the gods' consciousness, what does this say about the state the gods themselves might be in?And finally, why would the Shattering happen so very late in the timeline? Lore suggests Kerafyrm was involved. Nagafen claims he did it to 'save Norrath from the gods'. Darathar suggests he did it just to demonstrate his power. What part HAS Kerafyrm played in all of this? It sure doesn't seem efficient to his plans of revenge to have been hanging around idly for five hundred years while his armies build up, and then up and decide to destroy a moon one day. And where the heck is he now?</blockquote>It's possible that by non-destructive, Quellious simply meant that it wouldn't completely wipe out the mortals or end mortal civilization on Norrath, and in fact it hasn't. This makes sense when you consider that many of the gods were suggesting doing that very thing. Personally, I think the gods' plan has gone more-or-less according to what Quellious originally had in mind, though I don't think she necessarily knew about all of the events that followed beforehand (though I believe her conversation with her avatar right after she anointed him shows that she did know the Shattering was coming). I think that, with the gods' withdrawal from Norrath, things basically went nuts. Without the pantheon watching over the natural and supernatural forces constantly at work on Norrath, disasters which the gods might otherwise have worked to prevent were allowed to happen unabated.The planes have probably decayed as a result of the gods' absence from them for so long. When the gods withdrew to the Plane of Time to imprison Zebuxoruk, they spoke of their manifestations on that plane as if they were more substantial than the manifestations they took on their own planes. I think this shows that a god's essence isn't inextricably bound to his or her plane, and that they can withdraw from it if they so choose. Solusek Ro also spoke at one point of certain demi-planes collapsing entirely because the gods they drew their power from were too weak to sustain them. While these were demi-planes and not "full" planes, I see no reason why the same couldn't happen to any plane if its respective deity weren't able or willing to sustain it. The fact that the planes seem to be decaying in different ways is an interesting discrepancy, however. With Veeshan's extended absence, the Plane of Sky literally bled into Norrath and became the Overrealm. The Planes of Fear and Hate, on the other hand, seem to have "shattered" somehow and become more akin to demi-planes. If the reason for the planes' decay were entirely uniform, one would think the same things would begin to happen to all of them, but that isn't the case, so there's probably still something we're missing here.

Maergoth

10-29-2007, 08:51 AM

I haven't had time to read all the replies to this.. but my theories on all of this are fairly simple..Mortals killed the gods in the plane of time, Druzzil sent folks back in EQ1 and EQ2 continued from there, gods dead, zeb free. That's what every source points to. The gods we killed in Plane of Time were all gods of influence. The Rathe and Xegony were never truely killed, as just like the rest of the planes prior to time, they were just projections.Since they are the ones that created the gods of influence, killing off their creations MIGHT just anger them. Seeing as how the catastrophes happened shortly after the gods were recreated by whatever, norrath got torn up by the rending.. If anyone was responsible, it was the elemental gods, still intact. The shattering happened a few hundred years later, and was a result of rallosian business up there..The mortals needed something to re-ignite their faith in gods.. I'm sure while families are getting sundered and entire hometowns lost, people are praying extra hard for some kind of salvation.. They were definitely reminded of their mortality soon after.Seeing as how the gods were supposedly killed, it makes sense that either that, or the lack of faith in them caused their planes to weaken, as is understandable.. a diety is near nothing without followers. Easy explanation for why they came back as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> Plane of Sky has BEEN deteriorating though, without Veeshan's presence fueling it. I'm not to say that the rending is what tore up Plane of Fear, but this definately isn't just some "Shard" of a whole, it's the same old plane weaker than we've ever seen it.. the reasons.. read above. Either the lack of a god to rule it for a few years until recreation did it, or the lack of faith in the god itself.

Cusashorn

10-29-2007, 09:26 AM

The gods weren't "Killed" in the Plane of Time, since only Zebuxoruk contained the knowledge to actually kill and erase that which truely is a god. More to the point, only the evil gods tried to stop the mortals, and then Captain Planet himself. Since only Rallos Zek, Bertoxxulous, Innoruuk, and Cazic Thule are considered major gods of influence, the majority of the gods of influence were not affected other than when/if they were defeated in thier own planar realm.

Ama

10-29-2007, 10:50 AM

I still wonder if the gods came back on their own accord or if they were forced to come back. It would be interesting if the Shard of Fear had creatures that people aligned with Cazic-Thule could talk to for some lore insight. Course they just wanna kill my SK since he betrayed CT going to Rallos Zek. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />For some reason I still get the feeling that the Shard of Fear is purposefully opened to mortals to detour them from finding a real portal to the plane of hate.

skinandbones

10-29-2007, 02:55 PM

Great topic and posts keep them coming. Alot of interesting theories and lore.

Maergoth

10-30-2007, 01:29 AM

According to many in-game NPCs, however they knew it, the gods were indeed slain.. if they weren't killed, Druzzil Ro would have NEVER resorted to magics severe enough to rip the EQ and EQ2 timelines apart. She flat out says the world will fall apart if the gods stay dead, and she has to undo it. I was under the impression that the meeting going on in Plane of Time, judging by the initial conversations between the gods, was the same one they resumed after being restored, and is written in the Tome of Destiny. The rest of them were not present in the Plane of Time for game-play reasons I'd think, though either way.. not only evil gods wanted to stop mortals from progressing any further.___|"Quellious continued. "We all agree the mortals have gained too much power, but there are non-destructive ways to correct this. There is also a way for us to regain our strength, though it means removing our influence from this world for a time. But if we all agree--including those who sit upon the greater wheel of Elemental Power--it could save us all." "Speak, Tranquil One," Xegony said, breaking her long silence. "We will listen to your proposal." Quellious nodded. "It is through their unity that the mortals initially became strong. The first thing we must do is to disrupt that unity?" When Quellious had finished, Erollisi Marr nodded. "It would be an acceptable compromise." "Agreed," her twin brother added. |Though she makes saving herself and the other gods a major point, one which would be moot if they could be killed.. being restored to existence inferior to mortals only able to be slain again poses the same problem and I believe she's smart enough to realize that.

Cusashorn

10-30-2007, 01:32 AM

<cite>Maergoth wrote:</cite><blockquote>According to many in-game NPCs, however they knew it, the gods were indeed slain.. if they weren't killed, Druzzil Ro would have NEVER resorted to magics severe enough to rip the EQ and EQ2 timelines apart. She flat out says the world will fall apart if the gods stay dead, and she has to undo it. I was under the impression that the meeting going on in Plane of Time, judging by the initial conversations between the gods, was the same one they resumed after being restored, and is written in the Tome of Destiny. The rest of them were not present in the Plane of Time for game-play reasons I'd think, though either way.. not only evil gods wanted to stop mortals from progressing any further.___|"Quellious continued. "We all agree the mortals have gained too much power, but there are non-destructive ways to correct this. There is also a way for us to regain our strength, though it means removing our influence from this world for a time. But if we all agree--including those who sit upon the greater wheel of Elemental Power--it could save us all." "Speak, Tranquil One," Xegony said, breaking her long silence. "We will listen to your proposal." Quellious nodded. "It is through their unity that the mortals initially became strong. The first thing we must do is to disrupt that unity?" When Quellious had finished, Erollisi Marr nodded. "It would be an acceptable compromise." "Agreed," her twin brother added. |</blockquote>There's a difference between "Killing a god" as in wiping it completely from existance, and "Killing a god" as in killing his physical manifestation, from which it will only respawn sooner or later. None of the gods were ever killed.

Zabjade

10-31-2007, 09:37 PM

Dunno about that Cusa I think they managed to kill the "godling of Dance" I mean the dances we get are HORRID and with no moves to shift the style. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gisallo

11-14-2007, 06:32 AM

Someone commented on how stupid it seemed that the Gods would destroy there own. Here's something I found interesting regarding the 2nd Rallosian war. When you add on that most "timelines" out there put the final defeat and the Rending starting in the same year I think a different theory makes sense.From THE BATTLE OF DEFIANCEAimara looked across the field of battle. The Avatar of Flame towered above the orcs, rallying the Rallosian forces and directing the giants to hold their ground. The avatar waved its hand, and suddenly a line of gnolls covered in flame charged toward the Qeynosians. "By the Tribunal!" Murbeck shouted. "That beast set those pitiful gnolls on fire to use them as living weapons!" The gnolls yelped in pain as they charged madly into the defenders' ranks. The tactic had its desired effect as the army of Qeynos began to fall back. "Enough!" cried a booming voice, louder even than the thunder. "You will pay for what you have done to the children of Brell!" The battle grew still for a moment. The voice seemed to come from the ground itself, as if every rock had suddenly been given a voice. "Who dares speak to me this way?" hissed the Avatar of Flame. "The one who will make you pay for looting the dens of Brell's creations!" answered the voice. "In your hunger for power you sought to consume the entire world, but now it is you who will be devoured!" The earth shook violently and tore open huge chasms beneath the feet of the Rallosian army. The orcs screamed as they fell, their cries muffled as the fissures sealed up and buried them alive. Orc after orc was swallowed by the angry earth. "No!" hissed the Avatar of Flame as its remaining forces began to scatter and flee. "Hold your ground, I command you!" The ranger signaled to the knights waiting upon a nearby ridge. They charged down and circled the flaming creature. "Now," said the ranger, "we finish this." "So you think the Avatar of Below has turned the tide, monk? I will show you that the power of Zek cannot be denied!" There were clearly battles going on at Qeynos and Freeport. Similar tactics were also probably used by both of the Avatar's leading the Rallosians. I propose that The Rending was the result of the Avatar of Brell striking blindly with vengence at being betrayed in having his people (the Gnolls) used in such a way, as clearly there was some sort of deal struck prior to the war. With the power unleashed by these actions, the after shocks etc continued unabated for sometime, perhaps even the Avatars anger continued beyond this initial attack and the slow petering off of the chaos is simply reflective of his "calming down". The Shattering perhaps was part of the grand plan thought of by some here and put in motion at the time of the agreement (a century seeming but a moment to gods and all) but the Rending could well have simply been a result of the War.Remember you don't need the end of Teleportation AND the Rending to seperate mortals. Simply the end of Teleportation turns a journey of 20 miles into a full days march, the travel from Qyenos the Faydwer into weeks if not months by sea etc. I think the end of TP would have been enough to throw a SERIOUS monkey wrench into unity on a global scale. The dreams for Humans to go to the cities that were largely untouched could have been because someone/thing could see the betrayal coming AND the response it would engender.Admittedly I am new to EQII (original EQ man here just returned) so I could be COMPLETELY off base.