RoK, 140AA, and the final nail in coffen of the Bruiser

[Novusod]

First let me say I am NOT in RoK beta so l am not breaking the NDA by posting this. It has been reported by online sites: IGN, Tentonnhammer, Orgebear, Qj.net, and Gamezone that AA is being increased to 140aa with 70aa in each tree. God forbid they let in real testers who will feedback game breaking changes like this. Maybe they don't want to hear all the brawler whines as the class is finally killed off so they let in media clowns and plat sellers instead.This massive change will kill the brawler as emphasis will shift away from level acquired CA based game play to AA based dps and tanking. The Brawler and Bruiser AA trees are the worst designed AA trees in the game and have no scalability in terms of dps. A brawler will not be able to get dps beyond the 4/4/8 AGI, WIS, and INT while other classes will see huge increases in the utility of their builds. Giving brawlers extra AA will not improve their builds unlike healers and warriors who will be able to use AA to gain extra dps on top of what they already have in healing and tanking enhancements. All this extra aa is going to make raid wide dps go through the roof. The result will be more powerful mobs with much more health to burn down which again makes bruisers the big losers. In the words of the Devs when AA was first introduced Mobs were going to go two steps backwards and players would go back three steps. Players would need to re-earn their power to be effective; however, brawlers will have no room for improvements in terms of getting better AA builds.

[Couching]

I second that. Brawler tree is junk comparing to war tree and crusader tree. It's funny, even high end zerkers are [I cannot control my vocabulary] that guardian will be overpowered with extra 20 aa points since they can get  both dps and tanking aa in warrior tree and 20 aa in guardian tree. They will have similar dps as zerker with much better survivability.Let's see guardian and zerker will get 60% double attack, with 40% frontal aoe from main weapon, with 10 sec 100% extra critical in every 30 sec (it's already better than the robe of battle dropped from avatar), 22% critical and dragoon reflex (better version tsunami) in their warrior tree.What do we have in brawler tree? It's bull [I cannot control my vocabulary]. For bruiser tree, in fact, it's better than monk tree after the only useful end aa, immunity to non direct aoe for 10 sec, changed. Monk tree is totally crapped. At least bruiser has drag and control hate as end ability.

[Anjin]

<p>I don't have beta access, but subject to the AA changes only being +20 in brawler and monk/bruisers trees (and no extra lines to choose) brawlers get so absolutely shafted it's unbelievable.</p><p>I changed my main back to monk (my initial character) from dirge after the raidwide buff changes, but with RoK coming up I might as well delete my monk as far as raiding goes.  Maybe I'll look at my zerker again as the 20/20 changes will be FAR better for him, let alone if I decide to betray him to guardian.</p><p>Do the SOE developer have any experience in playing brawlers? I'm shocked that brawlers are getting (from what I know) nerfed this badly.  It's basically going to kill the brawler class (which by what SOE are doing is what they want)</p>

[EQ2Luv]

On a related note, I hear they're going to be preventing gear switching in combat, which to me is another nail in the coffin.  I like to wear dps gear and swap it out if I have to pick up a mob due to tank wipe etc, but now I'll have to either be as squishy as a cloth wearer or have my dps suffer to keep my mitigation and avoidance gear on.  Woots.  Plate tanks on the other hand will still be able to switch their shield in and out as primary/secondary are said to be exceptions to this no switching rule.  Convenient how that's their primary source of avoidance. And of course even their dps gear has high mitigation since its most all plate....This is just a rumour btw, but I'm sure they'll put it through since no one cares about brawlers' perspective. 

[Quicksilver74]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>A brawler will not be able to get dps beyond the 4/4/8 AGI, WIS, and INT while other classes will see huge increases in the utility of their builds. </blockquote><p>This is just absolutely NOT True.  </p><p>Currently if you are AGI WIS INT, and were given extra AA's you could improve your DPS tremendously with more AAs.</p><p>Crane flock for one....   is an incredible ability.   I strongly suggest you get it. </p><p>STA line offers other DPS choices as well.  The proc from that line does fair dps, not as good as crane twirl, but still something extra.   Additionally you will get the STA debuff, which lowers a mob's total HP, and makes the fight shorter, which for a bruiser, means higher DPS.  (I tested the STA debuff extensively in KoS, and at rank 4 it removed approx 9% of an epicx4 mob's HP if maintained... at rank 8 it was about 12% of the mob's HP).</p><p>I also have a sneaking suspission that either the STR line may change, or the Bruiser Epic weapon will allow us to use it and STILL take advantage of the STR line.  If that turns out to be true you will see a MUCH wider variety in bruiser AA builds.  </p>

[Anjin]

<p>I have no problems with weapons being swapped, but *personally* I think that shields should be unswappable unless the secondary slot is empty (i.e. a guardian can pop on another tower shield if it's broken using ToS).  This would force Guardians to either go for a DPS build (aka STA line) or a tanking build - but that isn't for this forum lol.</p><p>Crabbok, you mentioned the epic weapon - the thing we should strive for is equality.  If other fighter classes get a similar effect with their epic weapons, then the actual equality is still the same - we are still the subpar dps and tanks within the fighter archetype.</p><p>As far as crane flock is concerned, I honestly have no idea why a brawler WOULDN'T have it as you said.  It's perfect for DPS and aggro control while tanking.</p><p>Big issues as far as dps for me:</p><ul><li>No fighter equivelant to swindlers luck.</li><li>Self DPS and Haste are no longer unique - virtually any class can get a decent amount of both in an encounter.</li><li>A severe lack of melee procs (this applies to all melee classes).</li><li>The best leather armour being available to all fighter/scout classes.</li><li>Absolutely shocking EoF fables set bonuses (especially for monks).</li><li>Awful debuffs.</li></ul><p>Tanking:</p><ul><li>Reliance on DPS/Hitting a mob to generate aggro (with no self +melee skill buff)</li><li>Uncontested avoidance</li><li>Decent +Mitigation items</li></ul>

[Couching]

It's not how much we can get, it's how much others can get.From warrior tree, They have 22% critical vs 18% on brawler.Acceleration strike is 25% haste on casting and recovery and 38 melee haste.They have 40% frontal aoe from main hand with 60% double attack, in other word, their extra 60% double attack will give another 24% frontal aoe. What we have? 16% 250-400 damage proc. They can get dragoon relfex, it's tsunami with none direct aoe immunity, the only drawback is that you can't cast CAs while it's up. That's decent life saving tool. What we have for life saving from our brawler tree?Seriously, I can't see how anyone can't understand how crap brawler tree is and how uber warrior tree is. The extra 20 aa on warrior will make guardian and zerker totally own brawler no matter in dps or tanking.Edit: Fix the funciton of executioner wrath and acceleration strike.

[Aull]

<p>Very interesting post. I will say that the haste warriors get from the int line 2nd down will only work if it hits the mob, then the warrior must hit with three ca's just to get the haste benefit. It was better imho before they changed the aa's some, but that is a different story. I feel that the kos tree benefits the monks more than the bruiser. Strength line is definately a monks game there and crane flock WOW! With a monks ability to self haste and 96% chance at double attack is just flat out awesome dps. I do feel that 20 more aa's in each tree will be a benefit if soe doesn't nerf combat arts damage rating, or nerf the actual aa's or they will make the mobs tougher to put down. I do feel in the long run even with 40 more aa's EQII will still be challenging to play.</p><p>On a note I do think that bruisers are not a dps class or a tanking class and this does need to be looked into. I find it best solo for my bruiser now, but would actually like to see some love for us in the auto attack dps for us. Some may argue that I don't think we have dps, but it is only in burst damage. Since we don't have self haste like our monk brothers, and now no self dps mod (other than equip) we are not really hitting hard like we should be. I have heard that a bruisers combat arts hit much harder than a monks, but I have a lvl 70 alchemist and I don't see this huge combat art advantage that a bruiser has vs a monk. Sure the arts maybe like 85-350 damage for a bruiser where a monks comparable combat art is like 70-275 damage. I guess my greatest arguement is the reuse timers on the bruisers combat arts taking so long to refresh! While I am waiting for them to refresh another fighter is flat out auto attacking my bruiser.</p><p>Anyways I just want to see what this will be like and will try to enjoy the game till it happens.       Thanks for you time all.</p>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> I will say that the haste warriors get from the int line 2nd down will only work if it hits the mob, then the warrior must hit with three ca's just to get the haste benefit. </p></blockquote>It has a + to hit bonus as do all the CA, so this is a very minor factor.  It's vary rare for this skill to miss at level 70 with all the +skill available on equipment and offensive stance, which warriors (but not brawlers) can easily be in for most fights even if tanking. 

[Raca]

the brawler aa would be pretty cool, bruiser or monk aa tree though blows. Seriously after getting drag and ignore agony upgrade the rest of the aa blow, what other class has to waist 5 aa to get an aggro reduction in their EoF tree? everything else is so minor its pretty much crap aa.

[Couching]

By parsing, the hit ratio of master 1 spell or CA is about 95-98% hit ratio. The best you can get from aa ability is adp 4 and hit ratio is about 92-94%%.The war in my guild has 4 points on acceleration strike and executioner's wrath and the average hit ratio on MMIS and EH is 83-85%.They can get 83-85%% hit ratio to get extra 100% critical for 10 sec in every 30 sec. With extra 20 aa, they can get it to adp4 with 92-94% hit ratio. Seriously, even 83-85% hit ratio is good enough, we don't have any 2nd ability can be that good.Not to say our str line, who give it a [I cannot control my vocabulary] since it's totally a junk line for lv capped players. This game is all about progression and most of brawler lines have ZERO progression. Why are you going to use fist at lv70? There are a lot of parsing on monk forum and verified that it's worse than good legendary weapons. Our offensive stance doesn't even bother to give us fist skill bonus.For AoE damage, 40% frontal aoe comparing to our 16% 250-400 damage proc...LOL. Not to say, combining with 60% double attack, they will have more chances to trigger frontal aoe from main hand. Do you know guardian or zerker with high end weapons average hitting in raid? It's about 1.5k-2k with one hand weapon. That's their aoe damage and our aoe damage is 250-400. LOLI don't even bother to make list of what guardian and zerker can get for tanking such as 10% hate gain, more mitigation/uncontested avoidance, more haste/dps or better version tsunami, etc.EDIT: the acceleration strike is 25% on casting speed and recovery and 38 melee haste rather than CA reuse.

[Afr]

<p>Is this something I, as a level 30 Bruiser, should be worried about? Reading this thread and the thought of playing my Bruiser at level 70 just makes me think, meh ;o.</p><p>I solo 90% of the time, and Bruiser is doing really well so far with always over 50% avoidance and ~45% mitigation and decent DPS. </p><p>If the expansion really will kill Bruiser's as bad as you say maybe I should continue with my Brigand ? ~</p>

[Novusod]

Here is a little test for lowbie Bruisers to get a taste of what it is like at end game. Go pick a fight with an Orange con mob even a down arrow one will do. Now try fighting an Orange con mob with a Brigand or Swashbuckler. Your Bruiser will surely die while your Brigand will probably live. The lessen here is that avoidance does not mean squat against hard meaningful content. In the low levels avoidance works well but as mobs get harder they start ignoring it and that is when the class breaks down. From levels 1 to 50 I liked having really high avoidance so I used defensive stance all the time. By the time I hit end game having high avoidance was not worth it because the mobs were just hitting right through it. An end game bruiser is basically as squishy as a Wizard but with half the dps. If all you want to do is solo 1 to level 80 and then quit as soon as you hit the cap the bruiser will get you there but it you want to see the high end game stuff and raid to kill level 85 mobs you would be better off with any other class.

[Anjin]

<p>As with anything, if you enjoy playing a brawler class, there is no reason not to play a brawlers class.  The major problem revolves around every other fighter class being better at bother dps and tanking than brawlers.  Basically  if you want to tank high end group content or raid as a tank or dps, then don't choose a brawler.</p><p> This is all courtesy of SOE.</p>

[Anjin]

Hey, maybe I should point this at Aerilik (did I make a spelling mistake?).  Was amusing that the last post that he referred to on the <a href="mailto:EQ@flames" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">EQ@flames</a> forums focussed on the spelling of his name rather than the content of the thread.  Go figure.

[lagerone]

<p>I'm still arguing about LU13.......</p><p>Bruiser is DPS.</p>

[Longfangz]

First off, I think many of you need to actually play a warrior before you make some of the comments you have stated so you don't feel foolish posting incorrect info. I have a 70 zerk, bruiser, Sk, and pally, so I think I have a good idea of what each class is capable of and the AA lines they have. Quite frankly, the only issue I see anyone make here is that simply a plate tank with a shield is an overall better tank vs epic mobs, which is true. However just about every other comment is false. Warriors get 60% double attack, which is true, however most of the posters fail to realize that you cannot proc anything off the second attack. trying to add in crit % based on an AA that only affect the next attack, assuming the CA hits, and the 10 second duration is simply a time period of when you need to hit the mob again before the buff expires, but only affects the next attack that hits (one attack, not 10 seconds of attacks). Also, the end AGI line ability for warriors, while decent, is only for people who want to spend a ton of points on a line that does not enhance overall dps if you are taking it all the way to end ability. It's moreso a line for guards who want to have a little better aggro management over groups of mobs and encounters, however from my testing the 40% claimed is not actually how often it 'procs'. It's closer to 25-30%, and can be blocked/parried etc. And as many have stated already the INT line for haste is nice, but it is more for offensive tanking as to take full advantage of the line you need to have a high hit rate which is much harder to do in defensive unless you are buffed to the gills in a raid.Btw, if you really want to see a crappy AA tree, check out the zerker EoF tree. There isnt a single end ability worth having, and the majority of the +dps abilities are really just bringing the CA's they affect back just under what they were prior to EoF release and the combat update. Essentially, they took away damage to give it almost back in AA's. Overall, the zerk EoF tree is crap and the 20 extra points spent there won't matter a single bit.  My bruiser's EoF tree is 100x more usefull and I cant imagine anyone who actually plays both classes complaining about the comparision.I get tired of hearing the people who play brawlers who are upset that they can't tank epics as well as plate tanks. Quite frankly considering my bruiser can solo names sinfully easy, tank every single group instance with hardly any issues, and easily out dps all of my plate tanks without even trying, I wonder why many think that added to all of the above they should tank just as well as any plate tank with the same teir gearing. If my bruiser could tank any epic as well as my plate tanks, I would promptly delete them as they would be worthless. But the fact is, a brawler can fill practically any role so long as they aren't the whiney 'I don't know how to tank' or 'I only have adept 1 taunts' that plague me every time I get a group on a squishy toon that the group brawler refuses to even try to tank. Then I hop on my bruiser and blow through the mobs leaving them speachless and wondering why they can't seem to figure out how to play their class. So what if my bruiser isn't the best class to tank epics, we still have tanked/offtanked many raids using a brawler, and then they swap back to dps when they don't need to tank. Heck, aside from the raidwide buffs that all fighters now have, there is no point to having a plate tank in a raid that isn't tanking either, since even the best geared plate tank can't touch the same tier brawler's dps, let alone other teir 1 dps classes.Get over it already...

[Anjin]

<p>"First off, I think many of you need to actually play a warrior before you make some of the comments you have stated so you don't feel foolish posting incorrect info. I have a 70 zerk, bruiser, Sk, and pally, so I think I have a good idea of what each class is capable of and the AA lines they have. Quite frankly, the only issue I see anyone make here is that simply a plate tank with a shield is an overall better tank vs epic mobs, which is true. However just about every other comment is false."</p><p>Berserker EoF > Monk EoF.</p><p>And yes, I do have a 70 berserker with 100 aa's.  </p><p>No monk end line EoF abilities are decent and tbh no abilities are really any good whereas berserkers get instant berserk (great for juggernaught and unyielding will) and the improved reuse on open wounds and destruction is fantastic - also the extended duration of juggernaut is great.</p><p>Warriors will gain more from 20 more points in KoS and EoF trees than brawlers will (Guardians gain more than berserks though with dragoon's cyclone).</p><p>You compared your bruiser to your berserker yet your bruiser has a dps build and your berserker has a tanking build and a mediocre at best 1.6 delay weapon - hardly a scoop that he can out dps your berserker.  I'm sure that there are many berserkers on crushbone that would destroy your bruiser in a dps parse.</p>

[Couching]

Same here, I have 70 monk, 66 bruiser and 42 guardian.Guardian tree > zerker tree = bruiser > monk tree.Are you tired of complaining from brawlers? Actually most of us are tired of people, such as you, trying to make up story that how sucks warrior tree is.Besides, don't try to blur the point of this topic. No body complains that guardian or plate tanks can tank better than brawler. What we can't accept is that plate tanks have better dps aa line and more uncontested avoidance than us. Not to say 40% aoe, it's bull [I cannot control my vocabulary] to make statement that you have only 25%-30% proc rate, you should just /bug it rather than using it as an excuse. The point that 40% aoe totally own our 16% aoe is plain and simple. 40% frontal aoe damage is based on your weapon and ours is fixed damage, 250-400 damage.When people with buffs and fabled weapons in raid, their average damage per hit is about 1.5k-2k comparing to brawler 250-400 aoe proc, who can't see which one is better for dps? Not to say, with T8 fabled weapon and T8 buffs, the average damage per hit will up at least 30%.EDIT: Executioner wrath is for one hit rather than hits in 10 sec.

[Madmoon]

<cite>Afr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Is this something I, as a level 30 Bruiser, should be worried about? Reading this thread and the thought of playing my Bruiser at level 70 just makes me think, meh ;o.</p><p>I solo 90% of the time, and Bruiser is doing really well so far with always over 50% avoidance and ~45% mitigation and decent DPS. </p><p>If the expansion really will kill Bruiser's as bad as you say maybe I should continue with my Brigand ? ~</p></blockquote><p>As a wise man once said, if you want to hate your class, come read it's forums.</p><p>No, you don't have to quit.  This "death knell for the bruiser" nonsense has been ringing here f-o-r-e-v-e-r.  And yet, there are tons and tons of bruisers on every day.  Huh.</p><p>Play your bruiser for as long as you are having fun.  99% of the content of the game is open to you to excel in.  Some small fraction of raiding is hard for for us to earn a slot on merit, but want to know a dirty little secret of all the whiners?  Every one of them who whines is raiding.  Likely regularly.  You will raid, you will succeed, you will have fun, as long as you remember you are a bruiser, not some fop in a hat.  Don't worry about what is happening with the guardians, or the paladins, worry about your own mess.</p><p>RedmouserBruiser, AB</p>

[Couching]

I won't say raiding is only 1% game content of this game.It's all up to you to raid or not to raid. Though, after lv capped, what are you going to do? play a new class?This game is all about progression. After you got all what you want from heroic instance, you may change your mind that you want to raid.

[morningmists]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For example, with equal gear, a guardian or zerker has 40% critical and brawler has 36%.With 2nd ability of str line, extra 100% critical for 10 sec in every 30 sec, average critical zone wide on guardian or zerker is 53% vs 36% on brawler.</blockquote><p>NO NO NO NO NO</p><p> the extra crit chance is for ONE HIT after the AACA lands.... ONE HIT ONLY, you have up to ten seconds to land your next hit so you're not screwed if you are suddenly out of range or miss</p><p> also:</p><p> "For acceleration strike, 25% haste on CA reuse, casting speed and 38 haste, they just need to spend god [I cannot control my vocabulary] 4 points on 2nd ability comparing to our 8 points to get 12% haste CA reuse on 3rd ability"</p><p>again NO NO NO NO it is recovery, NOT reuse. The warrior reuse one is only only off the BOTTOM INT AA, and it is very small</p><p> yes dragoon area % is BS compared to the tiny crane proc damage. but if you are going to rail on against something over and over, get it freaking right</p>

[Couching]

<cite>morningmists wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>For example, with equal gear, a guardian or zerker has 40% critical and brawler has 36%.With 2nd ability of str line, extra 100% critical for 10 sec in every 30 sec, average critical zone wide on guardian or zerker is 53% vs 36% on brawler.</blockquote><p>NO NO NO NO NO</p><p> the extra crit chance is for ONE HIT after the AACA lands.... ONE HIT ONLY, you have up to ten seconds to land your next hit so you're not screwed if you are suddenly out of range or miss</p><p> also:</p><p> "For acceleration strike, 25% haste on CA reuse, casting speed and 38 haste, they just need to spend god [I cannot control my vocabulary] 4 points on 2nd ability comparing to our 8 points to get 12% haste CA reuse on 3rd ability"</p><p>again NO NO NO NO it is recovery, NOT reuse. The warrior reuse one is only only off the BOTTOM INT AA, and it is very small</p><p> yes dragoon area % is BS compared to the tiny crane proc damage. but if you are going to rail on against something over and over, get it freaking right</p></blockquote>You are right on executioner wrath and acceleration strike.The fundamental problem of brawler is that there is almost no progression comparing to war tree on dps and tanking.The single and aoe proc are all fixed damage proc rather than based on your weapons. We have less critical hit.We have no double attack with weapons.We have no mitigation, uncontested avoidance, hate, haste and dps boost rather than useless contested avoidance and tiny hp boost.Warrior tree is by far better than brawler tree and either guardian or zerker can get more benefit with extra 40 points on warrior their class tree than any brawler.

[Ganeden]

<cite>Longfangz wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off, I think many of you need to actually play a warrior before you make some of the comments you have stated so you don't feel foolish posting incorrect info. I have a 70 zerk, bruiser, Sk, and pally, so I think I have a good idea of what each class is capable of and the AA lines they have. Quite frankly, the only issue I see anyone make here is that simply a plate tank with a shield is an overall better tank vs epic mobs, which is true. However just about every other comment is false. Warriors get 60% double attack, which is true, however most of the posters fail to realize that you cannot proc anything off the second attack. trying to add in crit % based on an AA that only affect the next attack, assuming the CA hits, and the 10 second duration is simply a time period of when you need to hit the mob again before the buff expires, but only affects the next attack that hits (one attack, not 10 seconds of attacks). Also, the end AGI line ability for warriors, while decent, is only for people who want to spend a ton of points on a line that does not enhance overall dps if you are taking it all the way to end ability. It's moreso a line for guards who want to have a little better aggro management over groups of mobs and encounters, however from my testing the 40% claimed is not actually how often it 'procs'. It's closer to 25-30%, and can be blocked/parried etc. And as many have stated already the INT line for haste is nice, but it is more for offensive tanking as to take full advantage of the line you need to have a high hit rate which is much harder to do in defensive unless you are buffed to the gills in a raid.Btw, if you really want to see a crappy AA tree, check out the zerker EoF tree. There isnt a single end ability worth having, and the majority of the +dps abilities are really just bringing the CA's they affect back just under what they were prior to EoF release and the combat update. Essentially, they took away damage to give it almost back in AA's. Overall, the zerk EoF tree is crap and the 20 extra points spent there won't matter a single bit.  My bruiser's EoF tree is 100x more usefull and I cant imagine anyone who actually plays both classes complaining about the comparision.I get tired of hearing the people who play brawlers who are upset that they can't tank epics as well as plate tanks. Quite frankly considering my bruiser can solo names sinfully easy, tank every single group instance with hardly any issues, and easily out dps all of my plate tanks without even trying, I wonder why many think that added to all of the above they should tank just as well as any plate tank with the same teir gearing. If my bruiser could tank any epic as well as my plate tanks, I would promptly delete them as they would be worthless. But the fact is, a brawler can fill practically any role so long as they aren't the whiney 'I don't know how to tank' or 'I only have adept 1 taunts' that plague me every time I get a group on a squishy toon that the group brawler refuses to even try to tank. Then I hop on my bruiser and blow through the mobs leaving them speachless and wondering why they can't seem to figure out how to play their class. So what if my bruiser isn't the best class to tank epics, we still have tanked/offtanked many raids using a brawler, and then they swap back to dps when they don't need to tank. Heck, aside from the raidwide buffs that all fighters now have, there is no point to having a plate tank in a raid that isn't tanking either, since even the best geared plate tank can't touch the same tier brawler's dps, let alone other teir 1 dps classes.Get over it already...</blockquote>First off, I for one and many others do not complain about not being able to tank epics, thats the way it SHOULD BE. We are also more then capable tanks in ANY heroic content (includeing the new Shard of Fear, CMM and unrest.) You're totally missing the argument here.What is wrong is that all other fighter classes can outdps us. Zerkers exspecially, it's nuts how much better at dps they are then us. Anyone same skilled player who is equally equipped and mastered can out dps us. Other fighter classes (SK, Zerkers (!) and Guardians mostly) need a serious nerf in their DPS. I don't mind them getting extra agro abilities and taunts to make up for this but they shouldn't be even near our dps! They got the brawler tree right in that we're the worst tanks but got in wrong in that we're some of the worst DPS. Paladins are the only fighter that can be consisently out dpsed.You guys are head and shoulders above us when it come to tanking, why shouldn't we be head and shoulders above you when it comes to dps?Also why is it everyone who comes in there that is against this always "has" like every 70 fighter class. You say you have basically all 70 fighters which I think is total BS, you don't seem to know anything specific about brawlers and only talk about Zerker AAs and I've never seen you in these forums before. If you don't have anything to fear why are you here? SImple, you know that brawlers suck DPS wise and don't want to see your Zerker nerfed

[Longfangz]

Regardless of the replies, I do have a zerk, bruiser, pally and SK, all 70, and yes I know very well what AA"s each class gets. Btw this is the bruiser forum, so when I was talking about EoF AA's, I'm referring to bruisers, so pipe down monks, you got shafted with EoF AA's but I wasn't even talking about monk. Also, if you guy sare getting out dps'd by any plate tank with exception of a handlful of AE encounters (which everyone knows zerks excel at vs brawlers which are mostly single target dps focus'd, duh) then quite frankly you suck. I have never had a bruiser not out dps my zerker with exception of AE encounters (again, duh). Quite frankly our guild bruiser often out dps my conj on single target names in raids. ANd yes, I do have a bruiser, don't know why people have to cry 'wah you don't even play the class', hence why I point out that I can do so many things easily at 70 that my zerk can't. I'm not really concerned about being nerfed, because quite frankly with compareable gear and spec, evne guards these days can do half decent damage, however not worthy of a dps slot. Guess what, leather vs plate, shield vs second weapon/2hand. Untill the devs see fit to let brawlers wear plate, use a shield, and therefor be on the same level tanking ability as a plate tank, you'll just have to deal with being able to solo named, flop through any zone you want (btw I did it the other day when SoF opened up to check the place out first) tank every single groupable instance (my bruiser is far from uber, but we've managed to clear all the way to and including hag in unrest with only 3 people, one being my bruiser) and yet only fall short in the epic tanking dept, you'll have to excuse the lack of sympathy. I like the way my bruiser works, and I like the fact that she can fill multiple roles as well. If you want to tank epics, roll a guard. If you don't want to server any purpose whatsoever in a raid, roll a crusader (sorry, though I have both, I know neither are needed for a raid), but in the end I don't see how badly my bruiser is built seeing as she only falls short in one of the fighter departments and excels at so many more.

[Couching]

<cite>Longfangz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, if you guy sare getting out dps'd by any plate tank with exception of a handlful of AE encounters (which everyone knows zerks excel at vs brawlers which are mostly single target dps focus'd, duh) then quite frankly you suck. I have never had a bruiser not out dps my zerker with exception of AE encounters (again, duh). Quite frankly our guild bruiser often out dps my conj on single target names in raids. </blockquote>If it is the excuse, it's really lame. I can use the same sentence, if you as a zerker can't out damage a monk, you suck! And zerker dps is about even or more than a bruiser.First, at least give us a reason why zerker did less damage than bruiser.Second, brawler, not only bruiser, should out damage plate tanks including zerker. If we can out damage a zerker, we deserve it since we are worse tank than plate tanks.However, from warrior tree, you have 4% critical more than bruiser and monk. [I cannot control my vocabulary], why? Moreover,for auto attack dps, 60% double attack is better than DW two same weapons if you can.For example, 85*1.6 =136 > 85*2/1.33 = 127It's really idiotic design that people did less dps with dual wielding two weapons than 1 weapon with a shield.Give me a break, you have higher critical, better auto attack damages and better aoe CAs. You should out damage monk and even or more than a bruiser.Not to say, you can tank better than brawler with higher mitigation and higher uncontested avoidance.

[Anjin]

<p>Longfangz,</p><p>Can you give me an idea of the amazing dps you're pumping out on your bruiser please - some zonewide raid parses would be greatly appreciated, as I'd really like to know what dps zerkers are unable to achieve.</p><p>TYIA</p>

[Madmoon]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I won't say raiding is only 1% game content of this game.It's all up to you to raid or not to raid. Though, after lv capped, what are you going to do? play a new class?This game is all about progression. After you got all what you want from heroic instance, you may change your mind that you want to raid.</blockquote>No, raiding is not 1%, true enough.  But of all the raids, it only gets precipitous into the 50s through 70 for brawlers.  Prior to that we hold up quite well.  And even in the 50s and 70th levels, it's really only end-game EoF raids where only the most well geared brawler can hope to be a lead fighter.  To your point, that's when many might want to start raiding more regularly.  An exaggeration at 1%, no doubt, but nevertheless, easily over 90% of the game is open to pretty much every brawler.  But you would agree, for all the whining about our ability to contribute, most brawlers that want to raid, raid.  We could argue about earning a spot, as opposed to just being there, but even that sliver of the game we are not contributing in the way we want, even that bit, we get to experience.  I don't want the almost constant negativity on the boards to disuade someone from trying a class most players agree is a great class, often their main.

[Novusod]

<cite>Ganeden wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>First off, I for one and many others d<span style="color: #cc0000;">o not complain about not being able to tank epics, thats the way it SHOULD BE.</span> We are also more then capable tanks in ANY heroic content (includeing the new Shard of Fear, CMM and unrest.) You're totally missing the argument here.What is wrong is that all other fighter classes can outdps us. Zerkers exspecially, it's nuts how much better at dps they are then us. Anyone same skilled player who is equally equipped and mastered can out dps us. Other fighter classes (SK, Zerkers (!) and Guardians mostly) need a serious nerf in their DPS.  SImple, you know that brawlers suck DPS wise and don't want to see your Zerker nerfed</blockquote>Not directed at me but why should it be that a tank class is not allowed to tank epics? The Bruiser is a tank class and should be tanking. It is not the end of the world if Zerkers and Guardians can out parse Bruisers. The root of the problem is Avoidance. It's broke. Everyone including the devs knows its broke. They even admit its broke but refuse to do anything about it because <insert random excuse here>. If Bruisers could tank epics we wouldn't have to worry about being out parsed. Right now the Bruiser is the worst tank and the worst DPS. The point of this thread is that the Brawler and Bruiser AA trees are the worst which will only have us fall further behind the other fighters. The Bruiser EoF tree needs to be scrapped. They need to put in some AA options that gives us some Block protection and extra mitigation. Give us something that is at least equal to a Kite shield or something. Throw us a bone already.

[PaganSaint]

Where did they say avoidance is broken?

[Novusod]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Where did they say avoidance is broken?</blockquote>It was at fan faire when someone asked a question about fixing avoidance. I have part of the quote here:<span class="postbody"><span style="color: #cc6600;"><i> This is a tricky one. Mitigation is traditionally always more effective than avoidance and it's been hard to balance monks and bruisers without making them overpowered because in group and solo situations they're very powerful tanks. And to have them be more effective than the mitigation tanks group/solo and be as or more effective in a raid situation is really risky, especially when they can do as much DPS as they can. The minimum deflection chance is an attempt to bring more parity between brawlers and the mitigation tanks.</i></span> </span>This was taken as an admission that avoidance is broken and they don't know how to fix it.

[PaganSaint]

So they didn't say avoidance was broken.You are just applying your bias to what they had said.

[Raca]

<p>As a 70 bruiser I'd say our dps is great BUT thats only against equally equiped mastercrafted-legendary fighters. The BIG problem is we have no scaleablity in our aa's mantis bolt should be the same dmg as our main weaponn or a percentage of it, same with our aoe Krane proc. I'm not bragging just an example, I've grouped with quite a few fully fabled bruisers/monks and have only once had one out dmg me in zone wide dps. I've got 2 pieces of Wu's(legendary) and the rest mastercrafted with adorns and A legendary staff, half master 1's and half adept 3's. One other thing just cause monks EoF aa suck more that ours doesnt mean ours dont suck, 20 more points will not change us much if at all.</p>

[Longfangz]

First off, please don't use comments regarding things I didn't say for a particular reply. When I initially made my reply regarding EoF AA's, they were referencing zerker vs bruiser EoF, not monk, guard, or any other random class you want to slap in there. In regards to EoF AA's, bruiser wins hands down compared to zerkers. Secondly, in regards to overall dps, yes, any BRAWLER should be able to easily out dps a zerker vs single targets. If you can't, it's either than the zerker is wearing full fabled and you are using MC/legendary gear or simply they know how to play their class better than yours. I don't need to bother going back through for parses, as replies like 'post these so called parses' can go for you as well as you telling me to. If you are a brawler getting out parsed by a zerker on single or small encounters, then read the above comments.Also, regarding your math model, you can't simply go by stated DPS rating on a weapon to determine what the average overall output is going to be, it's all over the posts already so don't bother demanding a parse regarding labeled dps of a weapon vs another not actually being accurate. Damage spread, haste/dps mods, and overall group make-up have a much larger impact than you simply plugging in numbers to a math model. The one exception to an above comment I will admit to, if your raid leader has you stuck in a non melee dps oriented group whereas the zerker is, it is very possible you may be out dps'd by them, but that is your raid leader's fault, not the class.Even regarding your math model, assuming it was totally accurate, which it's not, you have to take into the account that 2 weapons with procs can actually proc, whereas double attack only procs on the primary attack, not the secondary attack proc.  Also, seeing as I can tell some of the people ranting here about zerkers have no clue what the CA scaling is between the classes, or they would notice that a zerker's largest CA does about half the damage of a bruisers. Overall, just about every single damage oriented CA a bruiser has is anywhere from 20-50% larger than a compareably equipped zerker (don't bother comparing the CA's if you have a piddly 400 str when the fabled zerker you are complaining about has 800, use some common sense). Monks are actually a bit closer in terms of overall CA damage numbers, however the reuse timers are much shorter, as has been mentioned multiple times even here on the bruiser forums (my wife plays a 70 monk, don't bother crying 'you don't play a monk!'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Sorry, but when our guild bruiser is regularly putting out 2k+ dps vs single target names (ZW parses are crap so don't whine there either. The fact that brawlers in general do have some utility for clearing, pulling, offtanking, etc, cuts into the ZW parses) and 3k+ for large heroic groups that last 10-20 seconds(she went wis line to end), I'm not exactly going to claim that the class is so [Removed for Content]. My bruiser however is not so well geared, but still ranges from 1400-1800 dps on most names including dragging the names and offtanking when needed. I didn't go all the way down the wis line, so I don't have much AE output to comment on, nor do I care that on random occasions a zerker will outdamage my on a few AE encounters. Keep in mind, none of these are claiming that brawlers are so uber that they can put out the same numbers as consistantly as the teir 1 damage classes. This is a fighter comparision.Unlike many who were angry at my replies, I don't want a nerf for the class, and would love to have upgrades in certain areas (AE aggro for example without having to go all the way to the end WIS talent) however I can easily accept that my bruiser only falls short on tanking epics compared to warriors in general, whereas I can do so many things solo and group related that non of my plate tanks can. Heck, lately I've been helping my wife's lil swashy get through SoS claymore portion with my bruiser and rarely if every even use my heal (unless I get froggy and pull half the rooms, lol) I know my zerker would need a healer regardless of him being better equipped for some of the things we have done. Yes, I know SoS is [Removed for Content], but it simply shows how easy it is for my bruiser to do something that my 'overpowered' zerker can't.I understand some people are upset assuming the raw data regarding AA's (crit%, haste, etc) but I would suggest you learn more about the class you are complaining about, or better yet more about yours, than claiming that you are somehow putting out the same numbers up untill those AA's came into affect and made on class stronger than the next. Brawlers always have, and always will, put up better numbers unless you simply can't play your class or are wearing MC gear or junk legendary items comparing yourself to a better equipped toon.

[Anjin]

<p>Longfangz,</p><p>What do you parse as a bruiser and a zerker in the same raid zone?</p><p>EDIT: I'm not even gonna ask for similar group setup - just asking what you parse.</p>

[Anjin]

<p>"Brawlers always have, and always will, put up better numbers unless you simply can't play your class or are wearing MC gear or junk legendary items comparing yourself to a better equipped toon."</p><p>Come on Mr DPS, enlighten me as to how much brawler (i.e. YOU) dps is in an EoF zone.  I know brawlers can do great dps, but I honestly think you are talking bollocks.</p><p>I'm certainly not the best (actually VERY far from it) monk, but I am calling your bluff.  Tell me what dps you do!</p>

[PaganSaint]

My average is around 2300 ZW for FTH/MMIS, EH is too random due to which names are up and which trials are called.Have seen much higher though from others, not my primary character and don't have my timing down for all of the encounters/named like they do.But saying either you are in crap legendary/MC or don't know your class if you can't DPS well is a false-ism. If you do not actively pursue timing, equipment and group setups you will not parse well.You can take the best brawler WW(Sardonis or Xenobe imo) and give them a crap group and they will do crap DPS(for them atleast).

[Novusod]

Here is an example of a parse in tonight's raid against a weak single target mob. The top of the parse is a Zerker who was also tanking the mob. We both have similar KoS type fabled gear and weapons and both in same group. His dps is nearly twice mine. I am not here to harp on dps because I don't think that is where the problem is. Is what kills me is that I can't tank.<img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/Novuso/EverQuest/Parse.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Couching]

<cite>Longfangz wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off, please don't use comments regarding things I didn't say for a particular reply. When I initially made my reply regarding EoF AA's, they were referencing zerker vs bruiser EoF, not monk, guard, or any other random class you want to slap in there. In regards to EoF AA's, bruiser wins hands down compared to zerkers. <span style="color: #009999;">Bruisers get nice end aa utilities. Though, the overall is about the same as zerker. The monk eof tree is worst. I would rate Guardian tree > zerker=bruiser > monk.</span>Secondly, in regards to overall dps, yes, any BRAWLER should be able to easily out dps a zerker vs single targets. If you can't, it's either than the zerker is wearing full fabled and you are using MC/legendary gear or simply they know how to play their class better than yours. I don't need to bother going back through for parses, as replies like 'post these so called parses' can go for you as well as you telling me to. If you are a brawler getting out parsed by a zerker on single or small encounters, then read the above comments.<span style="color: #009999;">See, again, no reason why brawler should out damage zerker. Zerker has more critical hit, more damage from auto attack and even more damages from CA than monk. How could a monk out damage a zerker? By your logic, if a zerker can't out damage a monk, he sucks. No excuse. For comparing dps between bruiser and zerker, it depends on how many multiple encounters in the instance. For example, if a zerker can't out damage a bruiser in Lyceum, he sucks for sure since most encounters in LoA are multiple encounters. </span>Also, regarding your math model, you can't simply go by stated DPS rating on a weapon to determine what the average overall output is going to be, it's all over the posts already so don't bother demanding a parse regarding labeled dps of a weapon vs another not actually being accurate. Damage spread, haste/dps mods, and overall group make-up have a much larger impact than you simply plugging in numbers to a math model. The one exception to an above comment I will admit to, if your raid leader has you stuck in a non melee dps oriented group whereas the zerker is, it is very possible you may be out dps'd by them, but that is your raid leader's fault, not the class.<span style="color: #006699;"><span style="color: #009999;">Yes I can since it's the SAME weapon in my assumption. It shows how ridiculous buckler line is since even you have two same weapons, you did less damage than one same weapon with a buckler.DW is about 50% double attack if both weapons are the same but you can get 60% from a buckler is [I cannot control my vocabulary] idiotic design since you get more than dual wield, you get uncontested block also.</span></span>Even regarding your math model, assuming it was totally accurate, which it's not, you have to take into the account that 2 weapons with procs can actually proc, whereas double attack only procs on the primary attack, not the secondary attack proc.  Also, seeing as I can tell some of the people ranting here about zerkers have no clue what the CA scaling is between the classes, or they would notice that a zerker's largest CA does about half the damage of a bruisers. Overall, just about every single damage oriented CA a bruiser has is anywhere from 20-50% larger than a compareably equipped zerker (don't bother comparing the CA's if you have a piddly 400 str when the fabled zerker you are complaining about has 800, use some common sense). Monks are actually a bit closer in terms of overall CA damage numbers, however the reuse timers are much shorter, as has been mentioned multiple times even here on the bruiser forums (my wife plays a 70 monk, don't bother crying 'you don't play a monk!'<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /><span style="color: #009999;">Of course, you can add on proc for additional damage. Though, extra proc isn't going to be enough to compensate the 6.7% less dps on auto attack in raids. (160%-150%)/150% =6.7%.Not to say,  there are even no proc on some weapons.  <i><b>Moreover, you will never dual wield two best weapons at same time. That's why there are one hand weapons and main hand weapons in this game. </b></i><i><b>In other word, 60% double attack on best 1h weapon you can get is much superior than dual wield one and another inferior weapons.</b></i></span>Sorry, but when our guild bruiser is regularly putting out 2k+ dps vs single target names (ZW parses are crap so don't whine there either. The fact that brawlers in general do have some utility for clearing, pulling, offtanking, etc, cuts into the ZW parses) and 3k+ for large heroic groups that last 10-20 seconds(she went wis line to end), I'm not exactly going to claim that the class is so [Removed for Content]. My bruiser however is not so well geared, but still ranges from 1400-1800 dps on most names including dragging the names and offtanking when needed. I didn't go all the way down the wis line, so I don't have much AE output to comment on, nor do I care that on random occasions a zerker will outdamage my on a few AE encounters. Keep in mind, none of these are claiming that brawlers are so uber that they can put out the same numbers as consistantly as the teir 1 damage classes. This is a fighter comparision.<span style="color: #009999;">2K+ dps on single target? So what? Who can't ? Even pal can hit 2k+ on single target. Don't tell me that zerker in your guild can't. Zerker can hit even 3k+ on single target occasionally and hit 4k+ on multiple encounters.It's all about your gear and group buff you get. I will say it again, zerker can out damage than monk and about even on bruiser. We didn't have any clear advantage on dps comparing to zerker since zerker has better critical, better aoe damages and better auto attack damages but bruiser has better dps on single target mobs. The Zw should be close.</span>Unlike many who were angry at my replies, I don't want a nerf for the class, and would love to have upgrades in certain areas (AE aggro for example without having to go all the way to the end WIS talent) however I can easily accept that my bruiser only falls short on tanking epics compared to warriors in general, whereas I can do so many things solo and group related that non of my plate tanks can. Heck, lately I've been helping my wife's lil swashy get through SoS claymore portion with my bruiser and rarely if every even use my heal (unless I get froggy and pull half the rooms, lol) I know my zerker would need a healer regardless of him being better equipped for some of the things we have done. Yes, I know SoS is [Removed for Content], but it simply shows how easy it is for my bruiser to do something that my 'overpowered' zerker can't.<span style="color: #009999;">Why? I know some zerkers solo catacomb MM as well as bruisers. They solo their SoD part in catacomb. SoS? Who can't? A lot of well geared zerker can solo nest, there isn't any reason they can't solo sos. </span>I understand some people are upset assuming the raw data regarding AA's (crit%, haste, etc) but I would suggest you learn more about the class you are complaining about, or better yet more about yours, than claiming that you are somehow putting out the same numbers up untill those AA's came into affect and made on class stronger than the next. Brawlers always have, and always will, put up better numbers unless you simply can't play your class or are wearing MC gear or junk legendary items comparing yourself to a better equipped toon.<span style="color: #009999;">Your logic is totally flawed.First, </span><span style="color: #009999;"><i><b>warrior tree has more critical than brawler itself is a big mistake. It's ridiculous as something if we can get 3k mitigation permanent boost on brawler tree so that all brawlers have more mitigations than mitigation tanks.</b></i></span><span style="color: #009999;">Brawler is supposed to deal more damage than guardian and zerker. Why the [I cannot control my vocabulary] do you get more critical so that you gain more benefit from kos aa than brawler? Brawler should have 24% or 26% critical rather than 18% critical. You get more critical means the dps gap between war and brawler are closer.Same [I cannot control my vocabulary] happened on buckler line and 40% aoe attack. That's why the dps gap is closer and closer and even zerker did more dps than brawler.Before kos, brawler did more dps than zerker without a doubt but not after kos since warrior tree is overpowered or brawler tree is underpowered.For tanking, you guys get more uncontested from warrior tree is also game breaking, not to say, plate tanks have same uncontested avoidance in ANY stance.Plate tanks have clear advantages in tanking over brawler but brawler didn't get clear advantage in dps. In fact, brawler get disadvantage in brawler tree comparing to warrior and crusader tree. </span></blockquote>

[Longfangz]

I'm not even going to bother going line by line to show you wrong you are in your replies, as I can tell that you are seriously misguided to make the majority of the replies you did. You are claiming a couple raw %crit by AA's is going to completely overpower the immense difference in CA size alone. Autoattack is not what gives you the majority of your overall dps, so weapon damage actually plays a lesser part in parsing than overall skill, group makeup and overall stats and procs.To the person claiming that their tanking zerker was parsing 2k+ while he tanked, I can only assume that he must have had every single raid buff on him alone and tanking offensive with a buckler to even come close, though I seriously doubt it vs a single mob unless he is simply wearing the very best EoF gear possible. However considering you claim to be parsing only around 1k, I can truthfully say that the fault is yours alone, as I don't think I have every parsed that low even in a non melee oriented raid group in mostly group/broker/very few KoS raid drops and still parse 1400-1800 ZW on my bruiser. All in all, your comparisions are skewed and this post is stupid considering you are attempting to compare apples and oranges because you are claiming that apparently you can only put out 1k dps at 70, whether its due to lack of gear, skill, or combination of both, compared to someone who actually can and has the gear to prove it.Pick my post apart as much as you want, it just goes to prove how uninformed and ignorant you are. Play a zerker to 70 and then come back and tell me that you can solo all of MMcat or pump out 2k vs a single mob without a million raid buffs...

[Couching]

<cite>Longfangz wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not even going to bother going line by line to show you wrong you are in your replies, as I can tell that you are seriously misguided to make the majority of the replies you did. You are claiming a couple raw %crit by AA's is going to completely overpower the immense difference in CA size alone. Autoattack is not what gives you the majority of your overall dps, so weapon damage actually plays a lesser part in parsing than overall skill, group makeup and overall stats and procs.<span style="color: #009999;">LOL, of course you are not going to show where i am wrong since you can't find it. I can tell you, to hit 2k+ ZW dps, auto attack is the majority of dps rather than CA on zerker.I have a parse of a pre-guild zerker in MMIS who hit 2k+ ZW. His auto attack dps is 1121 dps and non-melee dps is 913.Give me a break, melee dps is 55% of his total dps and it's not his majority of his overall dps? Then what is it? In fact, his ZW dps should be even higher if excluding mayong. He did only 1199 dps on mayong tanking adds. Now, you better tell me again that weapon damage isn't important, critical isn't important and 60% double attack isn't important. Full of bull [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span>To the person claiming that their tanking zerker was parsing 2k+ while he tanked, I can only assume that he must have had every single raid buff on him alone and tanking offensive with a buckler to even come close, though I seriously doubt it vs a single mob unless he is simply wearing the very best EoF gear possible. However considering you claim to be parsing only around 1k, I can truthfully say that the fault is yours alone, as I don't think I have every parsed that low even in a non melee oriented raid group in mostly group/broker/very few KoS raid drops and still parse 1400-1800 ZW on my bruiser. <span style="color: #009999;">Zerker on single target? Ok, he did 2232 dps on Enynti, you better try to make up a story that Enynti isn't single target encounter.Also, He did 2481 dps on D'Lizta Viswin, 2255 on D'Lizta Ceroon, now, any noob knows it's single target or not.Oh, what about group encounter, such as V'Tekla K'Zalk, he did't do well, only 3041.92. What a loser, is he?</span>All in all, your comparisions are skewed and this post is stupid considering you are attempting to compare apples and oranges because <span class="postbody">you are claiming that apparently you can only put out 1k dps at 70, </span>whether its due to lack of gear, skill, or combination of both, compared to someone who actually can and has the gear to prove it.<span style="color: #009999;">Haha, how could it be comparing apples and oranges? Dps is dps. The only reason that zerker or guardian can hit 2k+ is because warrior tree is overpowered. It's plain and simple. As plate tank, you shouldn't have more critical than brawler. Not to say, 60% double attack and 40% frontal aoe.</span>Pick my post apart as much as you want, it just goes to prove how uninformed and ignorant you are. Play a zerker to 70 and then come back and tell me that you can solo all of MMcat or pump out 2k vs a single mob without a million raid buffs...<span style="color: #009999;">The zerker was grouping with me, dirge, 2 healers and 1 scout. Is that the group you called million raid buffs?Moreover, he told me he solo the MMCat part of SoD.  I have no reason not to trust him.</span></blockquote>

[PaganSaint]

My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.</blockquote>Yes, my dps is very similar to the zerker. I did 2k ZW dps as well.That's why this game is broken since brawler, even monk, should have <b><i>clear</i></b> dps advantage over guardian and zerkers but we didn'tor at least monk didn't. Don't forget, there are not a lot of multiple encounters in MMIS. Most monks will deal less dps than zerker, with equal gear and skill, in LoA or similar instance with full of multiple encounters.Before kos, guardian and zerker dps is no way to match brawlers, even monk. By DW mechanic, DW two identical weapons = 50% double attack but guardian and zerker can get 60% from buckler and extra uncontested avoidance is ridiculous. You get not only uncontested avoidance but 60% double attack, it's more than wielding another weapon! Give me a break, who made this design should be fired. It's really [I cannot control my vocabulary] and didn't make any sense.Not to say, warrior tree has more critical than brawler tree.It's funny. Now, zerker are [Removed for Content] off since guardian is going to match zerker dps with better survivability in RoK. That's what already happened on brawler in KoS. Guardian and zerker have clear advantage on tanking over brawler but brawler didn't have clear dps advantage over guardian and zerker due to the stupid KoS tree design. With extra 20 points on Kos and Eof tree, the unbalance is even larger.

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.</blockquote>Yes, my dps is very similar to the zerker. I did 2k ZW dps as well.That's why this game is broken since brawler, even monk, should have <b><i>clear</i></b> dps advantage over guardian and zerkers but we didn'tor at least monk didn't. Don't forget, there are not a lot of multiple encounters in MMIS. Most monks will deal less dps than zerker, with equal gear and skill, in LoA or similar instance with full of multiple encounters.Before kos, guardian and zerker dps is no way to match brawlers, even monk. By DW mechanic, DW two identical weapons = 50% double attack but guardian and zerker can get 60% from buckler and extra uncontested avoidance is ridiculous. You get not only uncontested avoidance but 60% double attack, it's more than wielding another weapon! Give me a break, who made this design should be fired. It's really [I cannot control my vocabulary] and didn't make any sense.<span style="color: #cc3300;">If this was completely true, then rogues would still be Wisdom line and not DWing. Warriors do have a bit of uncontested avoidance with a buckler out. But they are sacrificing a good bit of uncontested avoidance they could have potentially with a tower shield out. If SoE would ever fix the Strength Line like we were trying to get them to do, this would be a moot point, even if they left Str3 as empty primary/secondary Str4 needs to be changed to straight 1% per point. But thats not what we are talking about.</span>Not to say, warrior tree has more critical than brawler tree.It's funny. Now, zerker are [Removed for Content] off since guardian is going to match zerker dps with better survivability in RoK. That's what already happened on brawler in KoS. <span style="color: #cc3300;">Its not going to match, not even close, but guardians are going from nearly strict single target to being able to control AE dps much more effectively which was the playground only of Zerkers before the new 20 AAs will be added. Anyone who does say its going to be the same does not grasp the actual ability difference between the two.</span> Guardian and zerker have clear advantage on tanking over brawler but brawler didn't have clear dps advantage over guardian and zerker due to the stupid KoS tree design. With extra 20 points on Kos and Eof tree, the unbalance is even larger.<span style="color: #cc3300;">I agree with the first part, that the warriors should not be on the same level as DPS as brawlers, but as far as the unbalance growing? Sorry, but not a chance.</span></blockquote>The damage potential and gap will only grow. In favor of the brawlers.Especially on AE fights unless it is just a continous stream of AE encounters.I have 3 AA specs, with the Strength line as it is, which is worthless and untouched, that will make a much, much bigger difference than any AA spec available to warriors.Before you go off on a tangent about the Warrior AA specs, me and skel have hashed out the only Max DPS spec while tanking(buckler) possible which falls short of the max DPS spec while DWing or using a 2h.

[tt66]

When all is said and done, double attack will always be better long term than proc-based damage, simply because the double-attack will scale with better weapons whereas the procs will remain static.However, I'm not in the beta and so I have no idea as to what changes are being made, how the AA trees are being tweaked, etc. etc. So I just have to hope for the best and rely on the beta-testers!

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.</blockquote>Yes, my dps is very similar to the zerker. I did 2k ZW dps as well.That's why this game is broken since brawler, even monk, should have <b><i>clear</i></b> dps advantage over guardian and zerkers but we didn'tor at least monk didn't. Don't forget, there are not a lot of multiple encounters in MMIS. Most monks will deal less dps than zerker, with equal gear and skill, in LoA or similar instance with full of multiple encounters.Before kos, guardian and zerker dps is no way to match brawlers, even monk. By DW mechanic, DW two identical weapons = 50% double attack but guardian and zerker can get 60% from buckler and extra uncontested avoidance is ridiculous. You get not only uncontested avoidance but 60% double attack, it's more than wielding another weapon! Give me a break, who made this design should be fired. It's really [I cannot control my vocabulary] and didn't make any sense.<span style="color: #cc3300;">If this was completely true, then rogues would still be Wisdom line and not DWing. Warriors do have a bit of uncontested avoidance with a buckler out. But they are sacrificing a good bit of uncontested avoidance they could have potentially with a tower shield out. <span style="color: #009999;">Actually, most swashy ares speced to one hand weapon with double attack.In swashy forum, they did test that one hand weapon with double attack did more dps than DW.The drawback back is they lose stats for extra dps, what did guardian and zerker lose for buckler line comparing to DW? Nothing but you guys get more uncontested avoidance.Not to say, you can't DW two best weapons you can get since you can't DW two main hand weapons. 60% double attack on best weapon or dual wield another inferior weapon is worse choice.Not to say, guardian and zerker get not only double attack, they get more uncontested avoidance. That's bull [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Brawler has less auto attack damage from DW weapons without any uncontested avoidance. How could is be a balanced design?</span>If SoE would ever fix the Strength Line like we were trying to get them to do, this would be a moot point, even if they left Str3 as empty primary/secondary Str4 needs to be changed to straight 1% per point. But thats not what we are talking about.</span>Not to say, warrior tree has more critical than brawler tree.It's funny. Now, zerker are [Removed for Content] off since guardian is going to match zerker dps with better survivability in RoK. That's what already happened on brawler in KoS. <span style="color: #cc3300;">Its not going to match, not even close, but guardians are going from nearly strict single target to being able to control AE dps much more effectively which was the playground only of Zerkers before the new 20 AAs will be added. Anyone who does say its going to be the same does not grasp the actual ability difference between the two.<span style="color: #009999;">Since Guardian is going to deal more damages in aoe fight, the damage gap between guardian and zerker is smaller. That's plain and simple. Otherwise, why zerkers incluing skel are whining? </span></span> Guardian and zerker have clear advantage on tanking over brawler but brawler didn't have clear dps advantage over guardian and zerker due to the stupid KoS tree design. With extra 20 points on Kos and Eof tree, the unbalance is even larger.<span style="color: #cc3300;">I agree with the first part, that the warriors should not be on the same level as DPS as brawlers, but as far as the unbalance growing? Sorry, but not a chance.<span style="color: #009999;">Not a chance? Then you need to learn what math is. If guardian did extra damages from 40% aoe  or somone has 40% frotnal aoe already, they can get buckler line, that's extra 60% double attack. You can keep lying that their dps didn't raise and the gap between isn't smaller and smaller.In realty. guardian did 2k ZW in mmis as well as zerker or brawler. </span></span></blockquote>The damage potential and gap will only grow. <span style="color: #009999;">Lol, see, you have no idea what you are talking. Ya, damage gap will grow since brawler has less critical hit, less aoe damage and less double attack. [I cannot control my vocabulary], are you talking about?</span>In favor of the brawlers.Especially on AE fights unless it is just a continous stream of AE encounters.I have 3 AA specs, with the Strength line as it is, which is worthless and untouched, that will make a much, much bigger difference than any AA spec available to warriors.Before you go off on a tangent about the Warrior AA specs, me and skel have hashed out the only Max DPS spec while tanking(buckler) possible which falls short of the max DPS spec while DWing or using a 2h.<span style="color: #009999;">Warrior tree is broken and overpowered since you can get more critical hit, 60% double attack with uncontested avoidance and 40% frontal aoe. I still remeber that your excuse is that you can't get it all since it's not enough points. Now, with extra 20 aa, you can get them all with tank line such as  agi final ability. Don't try to fool people. It's plain and simple that anyone will deal more dps with extra critical hit, extra double attack, extra aoe damages. The dps gap between warrior and brawler is smaller and smaller since brawler get less critical, no double attack and less aoe damages. Not to say, in game parse, when both guardian and zerker did 2k ZW dps in raid, where is the dps advantage of brawler over warrior? </span></blockquote>

[Quicksilver74]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can take the best brawler WW(Sardonis or Xenobe imo) and give them a crap group and they will do crap DPS(for them atleast).</blockquote><p>I agree with your statement.  Bruisers specifically are completely reliant upon group setup to parse well.  Throw me in a crap group and I'll be parsing 1500 on EH trash.   Give me a dirge, illusionist and inquisitor or similar setup and I'm 3000-3500 almost every fight.  </p><p>We are a great tool, for taking advantage of group buffs and putting the numbers to work.  </p>

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> <blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.</blockquote>Yes, my dps is very similar to the zerker. I did 2k ZW dps as well.That's why this game is broken since brawler, even monk, should have <b><i>clear</i></b> dps advantage over guardian and zerkers but we didn'tor at least monk didn't. Don't forget, there are not a lot of multiple encounters in MMIS. Most monks will deal less dps than zerker, with equal gear and skill, in LoA or similar instance with full of multiple encounters.Before kos, guardian and zerker dps is no way to match brawlers, even monk. By DW mechanic, DW two identical weapons = 50% double attack but guardian and zerker can get 60% from buckler and extra uncontested avoidance is ridiculous. You get not only uncontested avoidance but 60% double attack, it's more than wielding another weapon! Give me a break, who made this design should be fired. It's really [I cannot control my vocabulary] and didn't make any sense.<span style="color: #cc3300;">If this was completely true, then rogues would still be Wisdom line and not DWing. Warriors do have a bit of uncontested avoidance with a buckler out. But they are sacrificing a good bit of uncontested avoidance they could have potentially with a tower shield out. <span style="color: #009999;">Actually, most swashy ares speced to one hand weapon with double attack.In swashy forum, they did test that one hand weapon with double attack did more dps than DW. <span style="color: #33cc00;">The Best rogues WW are DW spec'd. There is no arguing with that, its how it works. Its better DPS, don't believe me, look up Pantz a brigand or Sinnach a swashbuckler or hell even asking anyone who would actually know, the swashy forum here is rather... weak.</span>The drawback back is they lose stats for extra dps, what did guardian and zerker lose for buckler line comparing to DW? Nothing but you guys get more uncontested avoidance.Not to say, you can't DW two best weapons you can get since you can't DW two main hand weapons. 60% double attack on best weapon or dual wield another inferior weapon is worse choice.Not to say, guardian and zerker get not only double attack, they get more uncontested avoidance. That's bull [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Brawler has less auto attack damage from DW weapons without any uncontested avoidance. How could is be a balanced design?</span>If SoE would ever fix the Strength Line like we were trying to get them to do, this would be a moot point, even if they left Str3 as empty primary/secondary Str4 needs to be changed to straight 1% per point. But thats not what we are talking about.</span>Not to say, warrior tree has more critical than brawler tree.It's funny. Now, zerker are [Removed for Content] off since guardian is going to match zerker dps with better survivability in RoK. That's what already happened on brawler in KoS. <span style="color: #cc3300;">Its not going to match, not even close, but guardians are going from nearly strict single target to being able to control AE dps much more effectively which was the playground only of Zerkers before the new 20 AAs will be added. Anyone who does say its going to be the same does not grasp the actual ability difference between the two.<span style="color: #009999;">Since Guardian is going to deal more damages in aoe fight, the damage gap between guardian and zerker is smaller. That's plain and simple. Otherwise, why zerkers incluing skel are whining? <span style="color: #33cc00;">The AE damage gap <i>needed</i> to close, but giving both classes the same ability is going to increase both classes, Guardians just gain a 40% AE auto attack compared to a Zerker who will have 40% base then be able to spike it to 100%. Skel is not whining about Guardians getting better AE DPS, he is complaining that Guardians through their abilities will be able to hold AE aggro almost as well as Zerkers due to AE auto attack and Reinforcement plus a new ability I cannot speak of at the moment plus the better spike damage mitigation available to Guardians that has always been there.</span> </span></span> Guardian and zerker have clear advantage on tanking over brawler but brawler didn't have clear dps advantage over guardian and zerker due to the stupid KoS tree design. With extra 20 points on Kos and Eof tree, the unbalance is even larger.<span style="color: #cc3300;">I agree with the first part, that the warriors should not be on the same level as DPS as brawlers, but as far as the unbalance growing? Sorry, but not a chance.<span style="color: #009999;">Not a chance? Then you need to learn what math is. If guardian did extra damages from 40% aoe  or somone has 40% frotnal aoe already, they can get buckler line, that's extra 60% double attack. You can keep lying that their dps didn't raise and the gap between isn't smaller and smaller. <span style="color: #33cc00;">Crane Flock, faster re-use speed, melee crits, Crane Twirl and Mantis bolt are all able to be spec'd. Crane flock alone is a bigger increase than any other fighter can dream of touching with just 20 new AAs.</span>In realty. guardian did 2k ZW in mmis as well as zerker or brawler. </span> <span style="color: #33cc00;">I know a Guardian can, with my average-ish gear and a good OT group I can put out 1700-1800 ZW there on mine.</span></span></blockquote> The damage potential and gap will only grow. <span style="color: #009999;">Lol, see, you have no idea what you are talking. Ya, damage gap will grow since brawler has less critical hit, less aoe damage and less double attack. [I cannot control my vocabulary], are you talking about? <span style="color: #33cc00;">See above.</span> </span> In favor of the brawlers. Especially on AE fights unless it is just a continous stream of AE encounters. I have 3 AA specs, with the Strength line as it is, which is worthless and untouched, that will make a much, much bigger difference than any AA spec available to warriors. Before you go off on a tangent about the Warrior AA specs, me and skel have hashed out the only Max DPS spec while tanking(buckler) possible which falls short of the max DPS spec while DWing or using a 2h. <span style="color: #009999;">Warrior tree is broken and overpowered since you can get more critical hit, 60% double attack with uncontested avoidance and 40% frontal aoe. I still remeber that your excuse is that you can't get it all since it's not enough points. Now, with extra 20 aa, you can get them all with tank line such as  agi final ability. </span><span style="color: #009999;">Don't try to fool people.</span> <span style="color: #009999;"> <span style="color: #33cc00;">If they take the final Agi line their over all DPS will drop. This is not the max DPS spec we were talking about even for tanking. Not to mention that now that they have enough points, you do too to spec appropriately, now if you don't take advantage of that, that is your own problem. Max DPS for a warrior going to be using a 2h or DWing.</span> It's plain and simple that anyone will deal more dps with extra critical hit, extra double attack, extra aoe damages. The dps gap between warrior and brawler is smaller and smaller since brawler get less critical, no double attack and less aoe damages. Not to say, in game parse, when both guardian and zerker did 2k ZW dps in raid, where is the dps advantage of brawler over warrior? <span style="color: #33cc00;">Check above. There is no fooling people involved. AE damage for brawlers is going to sky rocket if spec'd properly. Which then leads to much higher over all ZWs. If you cannot figure that out, please stop arguing now. As for melee crit chance? Warriors start off with a natural advantage due to inherent AAs, a 4% melee crit advantage. Do not try and tell stories about a ridiculous gap, there isn't one. My guardian drops down to leather to gain more melee crit chance, which by the way gets me owned if I get aggro, why can a brawler not equip that same gear with much, much less of a difference in survivability going from best tanking leather to crit leather? I agree that warriors have better crit percentage, and can maintain that better crit percentage, but a brawler can take more melee crit gear and be fine due to almost every brawler is there for DPS and their raid buff while a warrior who takes it, whose primary purpose is to tank at some point, is hindered by that gear compared to his more warrior/tank appropriate gear. Hell, look at rogues, they start off with even lower crit percentage and they are doing just fine. </span></span></blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite></cite><blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote>What about 50% haste from the int line? :O Not everyone gets an illusionist in their group.....

[PaganSaint]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote>What about 50% haste from the int line? :O Not everyone gets an illusionist in their group.....</blockquote>Actually yeah, forgot about that, most who know what they are doing only take Int2 for 38 Haste with 8 points into it, better gains per point elsewhere than Int3.But I was comparing straight across for all 4 classes, Monks who are reading this wouldn't include that, while on my Warrior I would love easy access to 12% faster recast which, to me atleast, is more beneficial than more haste which is very easy to obtain.

[mr23sgte]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote>What about 50% haste from the int line? :O Not everyone gets an illusionist in their group.....</blockquote>Actually yeah, forgot about that, most who know what they are doing only take Int2 for 38 Haste with 8 points into it, better gains per point elsewhere than Int3.But I was comparing straight across for all 4 classes, Monks who are reading this wouldn't include that, while on my Warrior I would love easy access to 12% faster recast which, to me atleast, is more beneficial than more haste which is very easy to obtain.</blockquote>Don't worry you'll probaly get faster recast in ROK ...hell u already got a better skill than Tsunami, God forbid Brawlers have any skill a warrior doesn't have .....................

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> <blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.</blockquote><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;"><span style="color: #33cc00;">The Best rogues WW are DW spec'd. There is no arguing with that, its how it works. Its better DPS, don't believe me, look up Pantz a brigand or Sinnach a swashbuckler or hell even asking anyone who would actually know, the swashy forum here is rather... weak.<span style="color: #999999;">No, the reason that some high end swashy got DW is because they need to get TS. For pure dps, 1h with double attack is better.</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;">Since Guardian is going to deal more damages in aoe fight, the damage gap between guardian and zerker is smaller. That's plain and simple. Otherwise, why zerkers incluing skel are whining? <span style="color: #33cc00;">The AE damage gap <i>needed</i> to close, but giving both classes the same ability is going to increase both classes, Guardians just gain a 40% AE auto attack compared to a Zerker who will have 40% base then be able to spike it to 100%. Skel is not whining about Guardians getting better AE DPS, he is complaining that Guardians through their abilities will be able to hold AE aggro almost as well as Zerkers due to AE auto attack and Reinforcement plus a new ability I cannot speak of at the moment plus the better spike damage mitigation available to Guardians that has always been there.<span style="color: #999999;">What you said can be concluded into one stance, guardian has better survivability with almost equal aoe dps/aggro to zerker is unbalanced. When guardian has better aoe dps, won't he get better dps ZW? It's simple math, don't try to deny it.</span></span> </span></span> Guardian and zerker have clear advantage on tanking over brawler but brawler didn't have clear dps advantage over guardian and zerker due to the stupid KoS tree design. With extra 20 points on Kos and Eof tree, the unbalance is even larger.<span style="color: #cc3300;">I agree with the first part, that the warriors should not be on the same level as DPS as brawlers, but as far as the unbalance growing? Sorry, but not a chance.<span style="color: #009999;">Not a chance? Then you need to learn what math is. If guardian did extra damages from 40% aoe  or somone has 40% frotnal aoe already, they can get buckler line, that's extra 60% double attack. You can keep lying that their dps didn't raise and the gap between isn't smaller and smaller. <span style="color: #33cc00;">Crane Flock, faster re-use speed, melee crits, Crane Twirl and Mantis bolt are all able to be spec'd. Crane flock alone is a bigger increase than any other fighter can dream of touching with just 20 new AAs.<span style="color: #999999;">Mantis bolts is totally crap. It gives you about extra 30 dps. Comparing to what guardian can get extra 40% aoe dps, who get more dps increase? </span></span></span></span><span style="color: #999999;"><span><span>Not to say, how can you get get reuse speed, melee crits, crane flock and mantis bolt? You need 73 points to get it. </span></span></span><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;">In realty. guardian did 2k ZW in mmis as well as zerker or brawler. </span> <span style="color: #33cc00;">I know a Guardian can, with my average-ish gear and a good OT group I can put out 1700-1800 ZW there on mine.<span style="color: #999999;">What you said just matched my statement, brawler or at least monk didn't have any clear advantage on dps over guardian and zerker.</span></span></span></blockquote> <span style="color: #009999;">Warrior tree is broken and overpowered since you can get more critical hit, 60% double attack with uncontested avoidance and 40% frontal aoe. I still remeber that your excuse is that you can't get it all since it's not enough points. Now, with extra 20 aa, you can get them all with tank line such as  agi final ability. </span><span style="color: #009999;">Don't try to fool people.</span> <span style="color: #009999;"> <span style="color: #33cc00;">If they take the final Agi line their over all DPS will drop. This is not the max DPS spec we were talking about even for tanking. Not to mention that now that they have enough points, you do too to spec appropriately, now if you don't take advantage of that, that is your own problem. Max DPS for a warrior going to be using a 2h or DWing.</span> <span style="color: #999999;">Yes, because guardian tree is also overpowered, 9% double attack. Without extra double attack, buckler line is better. You just proved that guardian EoF tree is by far better than zerker, bruiser and monk.</span>It's plain and simple that anyone will deal more dps with extra critical hit, extra double attack, extra aoe damages. The dps gap between warrior and brawler is smaller and smaller since brawler get less critical, no double attack and less aoe damages. Not to say, in game parse, when both guardian and zerker did 2k ZW dps in raid, where is the dps advantage of brawler over warrior? <span style="color: #33cc00;">Check above. There is no fooling people involved. AE damage for brawlers is going to sky rocket if spec'd properly. Which then leads to much higher over all ZWs. If you cannot figure that out, please stop arguing now.<span style="color: #999999;">Actually it's not. Even you admitted that guardian and zerker can hit 2k+ as well as brawler. Ok, brawler might be a bit higher, 2.3-2.4k. But how about monk? You said you admitted that brawler should has clear dps advantage over warrior but it's not since monk did same or even less if there are full of aoe encounters in rainds.</span> As for melee crit chance? Warriors start off with a natural advantage due to inherent AAs, a 4% melee crit advantage. Do not try and tell stories about a ridiculous gap, there isn't one. My guardian drops down to leather to gain more melee crit chance, which by the way gets me owned if I get aggro, why can a brawler not equip that same gear with much, much less of a difference in survivability going from best tanking leather to crit leather? I agree that warriors have better crit percentage, and can maintain that better crit percentage, but a brawler can take more melee crit gear and be fine due to almost every brawler is there for DPS and their raid buff while a warrior who takes it, whose primary purpose is to tank at some point, is hindered by that gear compared to his more warrior/tank appropriate gear. <span style="color: #999999;">Again, double standard. Even you have admitted that those guardian and zerker can use those critical gears, but you said they wont since they need to tank. Hell, brawler is tank class. We have our tank suit as well. Those critical gears hurt our tanking capability as well. When I have to tank, I won't use those critical gears as well as guardian and zerker. By the same logic, zerker as guardian as OT, they don't need to tank in every sec, they can switch to those gears and deal more damages than brawler.</span> Hell, look at rogues, they start off with even lower crit percentage and they are doing just fine. </span></span></blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.<span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;"><span style="color: #33cc00;"><span style="color: #999999;">With 12% haste on CA reuse, crane flock is 2minute 40 sec rather than  2.5 minutes Not to say TC, only stupid illy will give TC to brawler since other classes can deliver more dps with TC.Not to say, why CT is 16-22%? If you count on dirge buff, then guardian and zerker have 45% aoe rather than 40%.</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #999999;">Besides, it's 20% extra proc rate from dirge, CT should be 16%-19% rather than 22%.</span>-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote>What about 50% haste from the int line? :O Not everyone gets an illusionist in their group.....</blockquote>Actually yeah, forgot about that, most who know what they are doing only take Int2 for 38 Haste with 8 points into it, better gains per point elsewhere than Int3.But I was comparing straight across for all 4 classes, Monks who are reading this wouldn't include that, while on my Warrior I would love easy access to 12% faster recast which, to me atleast, is more beneficial than more haste which is very easy to obtain.</blockquote>I'd take 38 haste and 25% casting speed +recovery speed over the recovery speed of baton flurry any day....even as a monk.  Int 2 is the most powerful 2nd line skill of all classes.  Also, you cite a lack of reuse timers, but you guys have that as an option too.  Yea its at the end of the line, but so is crane flock which you contrast with AE auto attack warriors get in the third line. Plus, once you've taken int 2, its not too much further to get the end of the int line.  In fact, its no more than the cost of the 'easy access' 12% reuse brawlers have once you've spent 8 in int2.  I wasn't necessarily endorsing int 3, but it wouldnt be a bad way to get to int 5.   I understand your desire to avoid nerfing of the warrior tree, but lets face it its just too darn good compared to others.  Luckily I think the devs play warriors themselves or have friends, because they seem completely willing to let the imbalance continue.  I've got my zerker alt almost to 70, so he'll be ready should brawlers become completely obsolete in the expansion (although i'll probably betray to guard).Regarding the earlier comment, so what if crane twirl procs on crane floc. The beserk effect will proc on all your ae autoattacks not to mention the overpowered buckler of the howler. 

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> <blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.</blockquote><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;"><span style="color: #33cc00;">The Best rogues WW are DW spec'd. There is no arguing with that, its how it works. Its better DPS, don't believe me, look up Pantz a brigand or Sinnach a swashbuckler or hell even asking anyone who would actually know, the swashy forum here is rather... weak.<span style="color: #999999;">No, the reason that some high end swashy got DW is because they need to get TS. For pure dps, 1h with double attack is better.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Nope. Better DPS. Sorry, but its the truth any way you cut it.</span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;">Since Guardian is going to deal more damages in aoe fight, the damage gap between guardian and zerker is smaller. That's plain and simple. Otherwise, why zerkers incluing skel are whining? <span style="color: #33cc00;">The AE damage gap <i>needed</i> to close, but giving both classes the same ability is going to increase both classes, Guardians just gain a 40% AE auto attack compared to a Zerker who will have 40% base then be able to spike it to 100%. Skel is not whining about Guardians getting better AE DPS, he is complaining that Guardians through their abilities will be able to hold AE aggro almost as well as Zerkers due to AE auto attack and Reinforcement plus a new ability I cannot speak of at the moment plus the better spike damage mitigation available to Guardians that has always been there.<span style="color: #999999;">What you said can be concluded into one stance, guardian has better survivability with almost equal aoe dps/aggro to zerker is unbalanced. When guardian has better aoe dps, won't he get better dps ZW? It's simple math, don't try to deny it.<span style="color: #ff9900;">It can be so concluded only if you ignore what I actually said in the entirety of that paragraph.</span></span></span> </span></span> Guardian and zerker have clear advantage on tanking over brawler but brawler didn't have clear dps advantage over guardian and zerker due to the stupid KoS tree design. With extra 20 points on Kos and Eof tree, the unbalance is even larger.<span style="color: #cc3300;">I agree with the first part, that the warriors should not be on the same level as DPS as brawlers, but as far as the unbalance growing? Sorry, but not a chance.<span style="color: #009999;">Not a chance? Then you need to learn what math is. If guardian did extra damages from 40% aoe  or somone has 40% frotnal aoe already, they can get buckler line, that's extra 60% double attack. You can keep lying that their dps didn't raise and the gap between isn't smaller and smaller. <span style="color: #33cc00;">Crane Flock, faster re-use speed, melee crits, Crane Twirl and Mantis bolt are all able to be spec'd. Crane flock alone is a bigger increase than any other fighter can dream of touching with just 20 new AAs.<span style="color: #999999;">Mantis bolts is totally crap. It gives you about extra 30 dps. Comparing to what guardian can get extra 40% aoe dps, who get more dps increase? </span></span></span></span><span style="color: #999999;"><span><span>Not to say, how can you get get reuse speed, melee crits, crane flock and mantis bolt? You need 73 points to get it. <span style="color: #ff9900;">Since you obviously aren't the best at devising specs: Agi: 448 Sta: 445 Wis: 44862 Int: 448. That nets you all of it, procable on every one of those 100% AE attacks. Any Increase in DPS is an increase, hence a max DPS spec.</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;">In realty. guardian did 2k ZW in mmis as well as zerker or brawler. </span> <span style="color: #33cc00;">I know a Guardian can, with my average-ish gear and a good OT group I can put out 1700-1800 ZW there on mine.<span style="color: #999999;">What you said just matched my statement, brawler or at least monk didn't have any clear advantage on dps over guardian and zerker.<span style="color: #ff9900;">No, what I had said was that I can parse that way with my Guardian. I also now many brawlers, monks and bruisers who do 2.5l/2.7k+ in MMIS with very similar groups as to what you had listed.</span></span></span></span></blockquote> <span style="color: #009999;">Warrior tree is broken and overpowered since you can get more critical hit, 60% double attack with uncontested avoidance and 40% frontal aoe. I still remeber that your excuse is that you can't get it all since it's not enough points. Now, with extra 20 aa, you can get them all with tank line such as  agi final ability. </span><span style="color: #009999;">Don't try to fool people.</span> <span style="color: #009999;"> <span style="color: #33cc00;">If they take the final Agi line their over all DPS will drop. This is not the max DPS spec we were talking about even for tanking. Not to mention that now that they have enough points, you do too to spec appropriately, now if you don't take advantage of that, that is your own problem. Max DPS for a warrior going to be using a 2h or DWing.</span> <span style="color: #999999;">Yes, because guardian tree is also overpowered, 9% double attack. Without extra double attack, buckler line is better. You just proved that guardian EoF tree is by far better than zerker, bruiser and monk.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Wrong yet again. Extra double attack helps close an exceptionally major gap between Guardians and Zerkers. The best DPS spec for both is going to be DW/2h, a rather good Zerker agrees. The Guardian tree is undebiably better, but Guardian abilities across the board are undeniably outclassed by Berserkers and Bruisers with the exception of Tower of Stone.</span></span>It's plain and simple that anyone will deal more dps with extra critical hit, extra double attack, extra aoe damages. The dps gap between warrior and brawler is smaller and smaller since brawler get less critical, no double attack and less aoe damages. Not to say, in game parse, when both guardian and zerker did 2k ZW dps in raid, where is the dps advantage of brawler over warrior? <span style="color: #33cc00;">Check above. There is no fooling people involved. AE damage for brawlers is going to sky rocket if spec'd properly. Which then leads to much higher over all ZWs. If you cannot figure that out, please stop arguing now.<span style="color: #999999;">Actually it's not. Even you admitted that guardian and zerker can hit 2k+ as well as brawler. Ok, brawler might be a bit higher, 2.3-2.4k. But how about monk? You said you admitted that brawler should has clear dps advantage over warrior but it's not since monk did same or even less if there are full of aoe encounters in rainds.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Maxed haste, 100% Double Attack 100% AE auto attack, ~30-35% Melee crit(atleast our monk's crit chance when buffed) and you are saying a Monk can't do well with that spec?There is nothing in the warrior lines that can compare.</span></span> As for melee crit chance? Warriors start off with a natural advantage due to inherent AAs, a 4% melee crit advantage. Do not try and tell stories about a ridiculous gap, there isn't one. My guardian drops down to leather to gain more melee crit chance, which by the way gets me owned if I get aggro, why can a brawler not equip that same gear with much, much less of a difference in survivability going from best tanking leather to crit leather? I agree that warriors have better crit percentage, and can maintain that better crit percentage, but a brawler can take more melee crit gear and be fine due to almost every brawler is there for DPS and their raid buff while a warrior who takes it, whose primary purpose is to tank at some point, is hindered by that gear compared to his more warrior/tank appropriate gear. <span style="color: #999999;">Again, double standard. Even you have admitted that those guardian and zerker can use those critical gears, but you said they wont since they need to tank. Hell, brawler is tank class. We have our tank suit as well. Those critical gears hurt our tanking capability as well. When I have to tank, I won't use those critical gears as well as guardian and zerker. By the same logic, zerker as guardian as OT, they don't need to tank in every sec, they can switch to those gears and deal more damages than brawler.<span style="color: #ff9900;">It is not a double standard, it is how the equipment works. The warriors that are concerned to that extent tank by taking hits, their most powerful over time taunt is reactive to them getting hit, while they also need to drop their defensive abilities further just to hit the mobs to hold aggro. Brawlers do not have either of those concerns, their most power taunt over time is on their own successful attack and can "drop" into a hybrid stance that increases their defensive abilities and offensive abilities. The getting hit for very slightly more damage, difference between crit leather and tanking leather is small when buffed, and the lower hit points is less of a concern. Atleast it is if your raid debuffs properly and doesn't slack and you are grouped correctly.</span></span> Hell, look at rogues, they start off with even lower crit percentage and they are doing just fine. </span></span></blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.<span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;"><span style="color: #33cc00;"><span style="color: #999999;">With 12% haste on CA reuse, crane flock is 2minute 40 sec rather than  2.5 minutes Not to say TC, only stupid illy will give TC to brawler since other classes can deliver more dps with TC. <span style="color: #ff9900;">JC =/= TC. But yeah mis calc'd the percentage, it is 2m40s</span>Not to say, why CT is 16-22%? If you count on dirge buff, then guardian and zerker have 45% aoe rather than 40%.</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #999999;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Not knowing what you are talking about is a theme I take it. AE Auto Attack is not a proc, it is not increased by Luck, Blessing, Propagation, or Ancestry.</span>Besides, it's 20% extra proc rate from dirge, CT should be 16%-19% rather than 22%.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Luck takes it to 19%, Blessing takes it to 22%. I did not say just dirge, or just Templar. I said 16-22% which covers everything from badly grouped and only with base percent values, to well grouped as you said you were with both proc increasers.</span></span>-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote></blockquote>It finally just comes down to a completely transparent lack of want and ability to see how to improve and any improvements that are on the way.Is the increase of 20 AAs per tree going to solve all of the problems? No one has said it will.Will it benefit the classes greatly and make up/expand the difference for those that know what they are doing? Yes, absolutely.

[PaganSaint]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote>What about 50% haste from the int line? :O Not everyone gets an illusionist in their group.....</blockquote>Actually yeah, forgot about that, most who know what they are doing only take Int2 for 38 Haste with 8 points into it, better gains per point elsewhere than Int3.But I was comparing straight across for all 4 classes, Monks who are reading this wouldn't include that, while on my Warrior I would love easy access to 12% faster recast which, to me atleast, is more beneficial than more haste which is very easy to obtain.</blockquote>I'd take 38 haste and 25% casting speed +recovery speed over the recovery speed of baton flurry any day....even as a monk.  Int 2 is the most powerful 2nd line skill of all classes.  Also, you cite a lack of reuse timers, but you guys have that as an option too.  Yea its at the end of the line, but so is crane flock which you contrast with AE auto attack warriors get in the third line. Plus, once you've taken int 2, its not too much further to get the end of the int line.  In fact, its no more than the cost of the 'easy access' 12% reuse brawlers have once you've spent 8 in int2.  I wasn't necessarily endorsing int 3, but it wouldnt be a bad way to get to int 5.   <span style="color: #cc6600;">Int2 is undoubtedly the most powerful Stat2 ability for any fighter. But comparing Int5 for Warriors to Wis5 for Brawlers is very laughable as a point expended versus abilities gained. Personally the only way I am spending more than 12 points in Int is for my 2h/DW spec that will not have any double attack involved, my tanking will go to crap, but DPS will jump a ton.</span>I understand your desire to avoid nerfing of the warrior tree, but lets face it its just too darn good compared to others.  Luckily I think the devs play warriors themselves or have friends, because they seem completely willing to let the imbalance continue.  I've got my zerker alt almost to 70, so he'll be ready should brawlers become completely obsolete in the expansion (although i'll probably betray to guard).<span style="color: #cc6600;">Heh, its not a desire to avoid nerfing a tree that doesn't need nerfing. Its a desire to get people out of the misconception that brawlers suck. Look at Crabbock there and argue with him. Go to eq2flames and you will see a thread where the top WW guilds are talking about how their brawlers are doing 500+ more DPS ZW than their Zerkers.</span>Regarding the earlier comment, so what if crane twirl procs on crane floc. The beserk effect will proc on all your ae autoattacks not to mention the overpowered buckler of the howler. <span style="color: #cc6600;">So will any of your other procs, DPS, haste, damage, wards, immunities. The thing is, Berserk and the DPS from buckler of the howler are up almost always just like almost any of the other effect procs like that while damage proc's like Crane Twirl(AE proc = wow when combined with AE auto attack) and Mantis Bolt can proc many times in that same time amount.</span></blockquote>^^^ Up there.

[Longfangz]

I am still laughing at how uninformed the majority of the people complaining here are. First and formost as a initial reply to the above poster, the buckler is useable by warriors and scouts alike, and I would hardly call a 25dps pdoc as 'overpowered'. If 25dps is going to make or break the difference between brawlers and warriors, then I feel sad that you can't compensate for (sadly) what used to be our 25 dps group buff prior to the LU that changed it to +CA damage.Secondly, after reviewing the previous posts, I call BS on a KoS equipped warrior putting out 2300 dps tanking a single target mob. Even with the Planar Axe (which has been parsed time and again, and is pretty much the top KoS 1hander) that he was putting out almost 1200 dps autoattack to a single target. Also, you didn't specify what the 2 healers were, as in if they were a fury and inq, they were buffing his haste and dps considerably, not to mention the dirge dps buff (assuming he had it up) and no mention of what other raid wide buffs he had on as well (seeing as many can be cast cross raid). I still can't believe that if you were even remotely close to even KoS end geared that you would put out only 1k unless you chose to find the most skewed parse result showing how poorly you parsed. You can't compare your results of claiming he was end geared(even KoS) vs you if you are not geared as well. You don't specify anything aside from what you and he parsed during a single fight and then later claim that you both parsed 2k zonewide, which doesn't make sense if you show us a parse where you only hit 1k for a single fight. Also, considering the respawn of the MMCat mobs (assuming he was actually killing vs following a group, which is more likely if actually wasn't grouped) I highly doubt that he solo'd it all wearing only relic/Doomrage/random DT peices. I can come close to soloing it on my SK due to the ability to regain hps better through taps/spells/procs, but the respawn of roamers makes it difficult to regen enough to solo all the way through (though I did take my wife's lil 56 templar through there for S&G's all the way to and including the butler. She couldn't cure me but at least she could heal, lol)Next time, you need to actually know all of which buffs were on this so called uber tank that somehow parses higher than myself and every other KoS only equipped tank that you can only manage 1k on. Buffs are everything, and if he had them all and you had none, then go figure that he beat you. What was the dirge spec'd, what were the healers classes/AA spec, etc...The only way you can have a totally unaltered parse is simply to solo the same type/level mob over and over and parse the results after a couple hundred fights. One fight is not a parse. I gaurantee you that I can easily outparse my zerker on my bruiser on solo fights with no outside buffs regardless of my zerker being better equipped and my bruiser having less STR.Also, do some homework on the warrior AA's so you don't sound stupid to anyone who actually plays one, as the int line haste is limited and requires consecutive successful attacks (which use up autoattack attempts meaning less use from the haste you are trying to obtain), so don't cry about an ability that is not a constant haste % and understand the difference between reuse vs recast. I don't care whether or not they even things out by giving brawlers the whole 4% crit that you keep crying about. In fact, I'd love it for my bruiser, but I hardly feel she is somehow overpowered by warriors that have 4% more crit and 20-50% smaller CA's. Heck, I can parse 1k solo on my bruiser without even using Knockout combo or Kidney Punch, so I still can't fathom how you parsed so badly on a post you are trying to pass off as your only proof. This isn't to say zerkers can't parse 2k, just not KoS geared only zerkers vs a single target, even using OW for the haste and Juggernaught for the crit and Destruction for the procs, unless of course it was actually only a 30 second or less fight that all these short term offensive buffs were up for.Please, do us all a favor, roll a warrior, gain the AA's and see how they actually work and what they affect so you aren't hung up on the 4% crit and making up stories of constant haste increases and reuse timers. Most likely however, you will just do another cut and paste another set of incorrect replies that will somehow attempt to show me that I'm wrong regardless of the fact that I actually can say I play both classes(and many more) whereas you go by "he told me and I have no reason to not believe him" as your only proof of your class knowledge. If warriors are so overpowering, roll one and get a clue.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>Longfangz wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am still laughing at how uninformed the majority of the people complaining here are. First and formost as a initial reply to the above poster, the buckler is useable by warriors and scouts alike, and I would hardly call a 25dps pdoc as 'overpowered'. If 25dps is going to make or break the difference between brawlers and warriors, then I feel sad that you can't compensate for (sadly) what used to be our 25 dps group buff prior to the LU that changed it to +CA damage.<b>It procs enough that it's pretty much always going to be up (it has a long duration).  How can i compensate without a similar item? The closest thing is avatar loot and guess what, it doesn't last as long as the easily obtainable buckler.  And if youre saying tha 25 dps is negligible, well, you're wrong.  It corresponds to up to 200 dps depending on what buffs youre rolling with. Or are you one of those people who thinks 25 dps =25 dps?</b>Also, do some homework on the warrior AA's so you don't sound stupid to anyone who actually plays one, as the int line haste is limited and requires consecutive successful attacks (which use up autoattack attempts meaning less use from the haste you are trying to obtain), so don't cry about an ability that is not a constant haste % and understand the difference between reuse vs recast.<b>Maybe you should do YOUR homework.  The CA do not have to be consecutive.  There's a little counter and when 3 hits have landed in any duration it goes off. It also goes off if the effect expires before you do so.  It's *almost* continuous and if you time your CA you won't lose autoattacks (unless you poorly chose a fast weapon).  It shouldn't take more than 5 -10 seconds to get it up and you can keep it up permanently from there since recast=duration.</b>Please, do us all a favor, roll a warrior, gain the AA's and see how they actually work and what they affect so you aren't hung up on the 4% crit and making up stories of constant haste increases and reuse timers. Most likely however, you will just do another cut and paste another set of incorrect replies that will somehow attempt to show me that I'm wrong regardless of the fact that I actually can say I play both classes(and many more) whereas you go by "he told me and I have no reason to not believe him" as your only proof of your class knowledge. If warriors are so overpowering, roll one and get a clue.<b>I'm not sure who you're talking to but I have one and int 2 is powerful. If you don't know that, maybe you should think about it some more.</b></blockquote>

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote>What about 50% haste from the int line? :O Not everyone gets an illusionist in their group.....</blockquote>Actually yeah, forgot about that, most who know what they are doing only take Int2 for 38 Haste with 8 points into it, better gains per point elsewhere than Int3.But I was comparing straight across for all 4 classes, Monks who are reading this wouldn't include that, while on my Warrior I would love easy access to 12% faster recast which, to me atleast, is more beneficial than more haste which is very easy to obtain.</blockquote>I'd take 38 haste and 25% casting speed +recovery speed over the recovery speed of baton flurry any day....even as a monk.  Int 2 is the most powerful 2nd line skill of all classes.  Also, you cite a lack of reuse timers, but you guys have that as an option too.  Yea its at the end of the line, but so is crane flock which you contrast with AE auto attack warriors get in the third line. Plus, once you've taken int 2, its not too much further to get the end of the int line.  In fact, its no more than the cost of the 'easy access' 12% reuse brawlers have once you've spent 8 in int2.  I wasn't necessarily endorsing int 3, but it wouldnt be a bad way to get to int 5.   <span style="color: #cc6600;">Int2 is undoubtedly the most powerful Stat2 ability for any fighter. But comparing Int5 for Warriors to Wis5 for Brawlers is very laughable as a point expended versus abilities gained. Personally the only way I am spending more than 12 points in Int is for my 2h/DW spec that will not have any double attack involved, my tanking will go to crap, but DPS will jump a ton.</span></blockquote></blockquote>I didn't compare those two.  I said you can get int5 by reallocating less points than a brawler must spend to get their 12% reuse.  To say that there are better ways to spend your points is to say that the brawler's reuse skill is not as good as whatever you're buying in the warrior tree.  In other words the warrior tree is better than the brawler tree. No one said we suck, we just said warrior tree is way better, and you support that assertion even as you try to argue against it.  Also you seem to be talking about current best builds rather than what they will be when you have 20 more AA which is the actual topic of this thread... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[PaganSaint]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I didn't compare those two.  I said you can get int5 by reallocating less points than a brawler must spend to get their 12% reuse.  To say that there are better ways to spend your points is to say that the brawler's reuse skill is not as good as whatever you're buying in the warrior tree.  In other words the warrior tree is better than the brawler tree. No one said we suck, we just said warrior tree is way better, and you support that assertion even as you try to argue against it.  Also you seem to be talking about current best builds rather than what they will be when you have 20 more AA which is the actual topic of this thread... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Sorry misunderstood the way you had presented it then.I am talking only about the builds possible, not the ones now, if it is only the ones now, no one in their right mind would ever touch Int5 for warriors while Agi3 for brawlers is one of the best possible choices.

[EQ2Luv]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I didn't compare those two.  I said you can get int5 by reallocating less points than a brawler must spend to get their 12% reuse.  To say that there are better ways to spend your points is to say that the brawler's reuse skill is not as good as whatever you're buying in the warrior tree.  In other words the warrior tree is better than the brawler tree. No one said we suck, we just said warrior tree is way better, and you support that assertion even as you try to argue against it.  Also you seem to be talking about current best builds rather than what they will be when you have 20 more AA which is the actual topic of this thread... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Sorry misunderstood the way you had presented it then.I am talking only about the builds possible, not the ones now, if it is only the ones now, no one in their right mind would ever touch Int5 for warriors while Agi3 for brawlers is one of the best possible choices.</blockquote>Meaning the 'no way' option for warriors is one of the best brawler choices.  See how this would seem to imply that warriors have better options? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[PaganSaint]

<cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I didn't compare those two.  I said you can get int5 by reallocating less points than a brawler must spend to get their 12% reuse.  To say that there are better ways to spend your points is to say that the brawler's reuse skill is not as good as whatever you're buying in the warrior tree.  In other words the warrior tree is better than the brawler tree. No one said we suck, we just said warrior tree is way better, and you support that assertion even as you try to argue against it.  Also you seem to be talking about current best builds rather than what they will be when you have 20 more AA which is the actual topic of this thread... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Sorry misunderstood the way you had presented it then.I am talking only about the builds possible, not the ones now, if it is only the ones now, no one in their right mind would ever touch Int5 for warriors while Agi3 for brawlers is one of the best possible choices.</blockquote>Meaning the 'no way' option for warriors is one of the best brawler choices.  See how this would seem to imply that warriors have better options? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>No, meaning that there is not a way to take it without gimping your build right now.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> <blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>My question is, with that group set up, what were you parsing and why wasn't it very similar to that zerker if it wasn't?Unless of course your weapons aren't comparable, then nevermind entirely with the question.</blockquote><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;"><span style="color: #33cc00;">The Best rogues WW are DW spec'd. There is no arguing with that, its how it works. Its better DPS, don't believe me, look up Pantz a brigand or Sinnach a swashbuckler or hell even asking anyone who would actually know, the swashy forum here is rather... weak.<span style="color: #999999;">No, the reason that some high end swashy got DW is because they need to get TS. For pure dps, 1h with double attack is better.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Nope. Better DPS. Sorry, but its the truth any way you cut it.<span style="color: #993399;">Nope, the true is that they get DW is for TS mainly. The 1h with double attack has more dps. Unless, you can get some serious buff from illy (25%) and 10% from dirge. Though, in most cases, swashy isn't going to get IA from illy.</span></span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;">Since Guardian is going to deal more damages in aoe fight, the damage gap between guardian and zerker is smaller. That's plain and simple. Otherwise, why zerkers incluing skel are whining? <span style="color: #33cc00;">The AE damage gap <i>needed</i> to close, but giving both classes the same ability is going to increase both classes, Guardians just gain a 40% AE auto attack compared to a Zerker who will have 40% base then be able to spike it to 100%. Skel is not whining about Guardians getting better AE DPS, he is complaining that Guardians through their abilities will be able to hold AE aggro almost as well as Zerkers due to AE auto attack and Reinforcement plus a new ability I cannot speak of at the moment plus the better spike damage mitigation available to Guardians that has always been there.<span style="color: #999999;">What you said can be concluded into one stance, guardian has better survivability with almost equal aoe dps/aggro to zerker is unbalanced. When guardian has better aoe dps, won't he get better dps ZW? It's simple math, don't try to deny it.<span style="color: #ff9900;">It can be so concluded only if you ignore what I actually said in the entirety of that paragraph.<span style="color: #993399;">Actually that's what you said that guardian is going to have more dps and it narrow the dps gap between guardian and zerker. People are not fool, it's a simple fact.</span></span></span></span> </span></span> Guardian and zerker have clear advantage on tanking over brawler but brawler didn't have clear dps advantage over guardian and zerker due to the stupid KoS tree design. With extra 20 points on Kos and Eof tree, the unbalance is even larger.<span style="color: #cc3300;">I agree with the first part, that the warriors should not be on the same level as DPS as brawlers, but as far as the unbalance growing? Sorry, but not a chance.<span style="color: #009999;">Not a chance? Then you need to learn what math is. If guardian did extra damages from 40% aoe  or somone has 40% frotnal aoe already, they can get buckler line, that's extra 60% double attack. You can keep lying that their dps didn't raise and the gap between isn't smaller and smaller. <span style="color: #33cc00;">Crane Flock, faster re-use speed, melee crits, Crane Twirl and Mantis bolt are all able to be spec'd. Crane flock alone is a bigger increase than any other fighter can dream of touching with just 20 new AAs.<span style="color: #999999;">Mantis bolts is totally crap. It gives you about extra 30 dps. Comparing to what guardian can get extra 40% aoe dps, who get more dps increase? </span></span></span></span><span style="color: #999999;"><span><span>Not to say, how can you get get reuse speed, melee crits, crane flock and mantis bolt? You need 73 points to get it. <span style="color: #ff9900;">Since you obviously aren't the best at devising specs: Agi: 448 Sta: 445 Wis: 44862 Int: 448. That nets you all of it, procable on every one of those 100% AE attacks. Any Increase in DPS is an increase, hence a max DPS spec.<span style="color: #993399;">Why do brawler to get that [Removed for Content] spec? You have another double standard again. We are tank. I am not going to spec to what you said as a crappy off tank in raid. If you think that guardian and zerker can fully spec to dps, then you can come back and discuss how to spec brawler to fully spec to dps.It's really lame that you kept comparing dps sepc brawler to tanking spec guardian. No way. </span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;">In realty. guardian did 2k ZW in mmis as well as zerker or brawler. </span> <span style="color: #33cc00;">I know a Guardian can, with my average-ish gear and a good OT group I can put out 1700-1800 ZW there on mine.<span style="color: #999999;">What you said just matched my statement, brawler or at least monk didn't have any clear advantage on dps over guardian and zerker.<span style="color: #ff9900;">No, what I had said was that I can parse that way with my Guardian. I also now many brawlers, monks and bruisers who do 2.5l/2.7k+ in MMIS with very similar groups as to what you had listed.<span style="color: #993399;">Lol, you better show any monk who did 2.5k ZW without contested weapons or critical robe. In fact, even best geared monk, it's still very hard to hit 2.5k ZW including mayong, not to say 2.7k. Heh, even you did 2.3k as bruiser without contested weapon. How can you make this statement that monk did 2.5k with equal gear as you do? Bruiser has 200-300 dps ZW ahead of monk.</span></span></span></span></span></blockquote> <span style="color: #009999;">Warrior tree is broken and overpowered since you can get more critical hit, 60% double attack with uncontested avoidance and 40% frontal aoe. I still remeber that your excuse is that you can't get it all since it's not enough points. Now, with extra 20 aa, you can get them all with tank line such as  agi final ability. </span><span style="color: #009999;">Don't try to fool people.</span> <span style="color: #009999;"> <span style="color: #33cc00;">If they take the final Agi line their over all DPS will drop. This is not the max DPS spec we were talking about even for tanking. Not to mention that now that they have enough points, you do too to spec appropriately, now if you don't take advantage of that, that is your own problem. Max DPS for a warrior going to be using a 2h or DWing.</span> <span style="color: #999999;">Yes, because guardian tree is also overpowered, 9% double attack. Without extra double attack, buckler line is better. You just proved that guardian EoF tree is by far better than zerker, bruiser and monk.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Wrong yet again. Extra double attack helps close an exceptionally major gap between Guardians and Zerkers. The best DPS spec for both is going to be DW/2h, a rather good Zerker agrees. The Guardian tree is undebiably better, but Guardian abilities across the board are undeniably outclassed by Berserkers and Bruisers with the exception of Tower of Stone.</span></span><span style="color: #993399;">Wrong? guardian tree isn't overpowered comparing to zerker or bruiser or monk tree? [Removed for Content] are you talking about? The truth that guardian get benefit more than zerker, bruiser and monk from extra 20 aa in both kos and eof. </span>It's plain and simple that anyone will deal more dps with extra critical hit, extra double attack, extra aoe damages. The dps gap between warrior and brawler is smaller and smaller since brawler get less critical, no double attack and less aoe damages. Not to say, in game parse, when both guardian and zerker did 2k ZW dps in raid, where is the dps advantage of brawler over warrior? <span style="color: #33cc00;">Check above. There is no fooling people involved. AE damage for brawlers is going to sky rocket if spec'd properly. Which then leads to much higher over all ZWs. If you cannot figure that out, please stop arguing now.<span style="color: #999999;">Actually it's not. Even you admitted that guardian and zerker can hit 2k+ as well as brawler. Ok, brawler might be a bit higher, 2.3-2.4k. But how about monk? You said you admitted that brawler should has clear dps advantage over warrior but it's not since monk did same or even less if there are full of aoe encounters in rainds.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Maxed haste, 100% Double Attack 100% AE auto attack, ~30-35% Melee crit(atleast our monk's crit chance when buffed) and you are saying a Monk can't do well with that spec?There is nothing in the warrior lines that can compare.<span style="color: #993399;">Are you kidding me? 16 sec for every 3 minutes. If you divided, it's about 11% double attack. By the same logic, maxing heaste, 60% ALL the time, 40% aoe ALL the time, `35%-40%+ criticl , are you saying that gaurdian can't dps? Not to say zerker, they can get critical up to ~50% with temp buff/CA.Morover, when I am tanking, I have only 21% critical, stop comparing tanking spec/suit guardian and zerker comparing to dps suit monk. That's so lame since you can switch to dps suit as well as brawler.And, yes, you have 4% more critical than brawler when both are in dps spec and dps suit.</span></span></span> As for melee crit chance? Warriors start off with a natural advantage due to inherent AAs, a 4% melee crit advantage. Do not try and tell stories about a ridiculous gap, there isn't one. My guardian drops down to leather to gain more melee crit chance, which by the way gets me owned if I get aggro, why can a brawler not equip that same gear with much, much less of a difference in survivability going from best tanking leather to crit leather? I agree that warriors have better crit percentage, and can maintain that better crit percentage, but a brawler can take more melee crit gear and be fine due to almost every brawler is there for DPS and their raid buff while a warrior who takes it, whose primary purpose is to tank at some point, is hindered by that gear compared to his more warrior/tank appropriate gear. <span style="color: #999999;">Again, double standard. Even you have admitted that those guardian and zerker can use those critical gears, but you said they wont since they need to tank. Hell, brawler is tank class. We have our tank suit as well. Those critical gears hurt our tanking capability as well. When I have to tank, I won't use those critical gears as well as guardian and zerker. By the same logic, zerker as guardian as OT, they don't need to tank in every sec, they can switch to those gears and deal more damages than brawler.<span style="color: #ff9900;">It is not a double standard, it is how the equipment works. The warriors that are concerned to that extent tank by taking hits, their most powerful over time taunt is reactive to them getting hit, while they also need to drop their defensive abilities further just to hit the mobs to hold aggro. Brawlers do not have either of those concerns, their most power taunt over time is on their own successful attack and can "drop" into a hybrid stance that increases their defensive abilities and offensive abilities. The getting hit for very slightly more damage, difference between crit leather and tanking leather is small when buffed, and the lower hit points is less of a concern. Atleast it is if your raid debuffs properly and doesn't slack and you are grouped correctly.<span style="color: #993399;">It is double standard. Brawler is tank.When we are off tanking, we need to switch to tank suit for better survivability. My tank suit has 1700+ more hp than my dps suit, 7% more mitigation and 5% more avoidance. Now, you better telling me that brawler didn't need tank suit to off tank. If it is true, guardian and zerker didn't need tank suit as well. </span></span></span> Hell, look at rogues, they start off with even lower crit percentage and they are doing just fine. </span></span></blockquote>There are only two real platforms of major difference:-One is 40% AE auto attack all the time, compared to a brawler who will "only" have Crane Flock every 2.5min or for an AE fight once every 1.25min (JC) if the fight lasts that long. And Crane Twirl at 16-22% proc rate, proc'able off of AE auto attacks from Crane Flock.<span style="color: #cc3300;"><span style="color: #009999;"><span style="color: #33cc00;"><span style="color: #999999;">With 12% haste on CA reuse, crane flock is 2minute 40 sec rather than  2.5 minutes Not to say TC, only stupid illy will give TC to brawler since other classes can deliver more dps with TC. <span style="color: #ff9900;">JC =/= TC. But yeah mis calc'd the percentage, it is 2m40s <span style="color: #993399;">How many troub do you have in raid? If you have 3 dirge, you will have only 1 troub. It's not going to happen to get JC.</span></span>Not to say, why CT is 16-22%? If you count on dirge buff, then guardian and zerker have 45% aoe rather than 40%.</span></span></span></span><span style="color: #999999;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Not knowing what you are talking about is a theme I take it. AE Auto Attack is not a proc, it is not increased by Luck, Blessing, Propagation, or Ancestry.</span>Besides, it's 20% extra proc rate from dirge, CT should be 16%-19% rather than 22%.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Luck takes it to 19%, Blessing takes it to 22%. I did not say just dirge, or just Templar. I said 16-22% which covers everything from badly grouped and only with base percent values, to well grouped as you said you were with both proc increasers.<span style="color: #993399;">Ok, that's the best caes and what realty is? The realty is, a lot of brawler don't even have a chance to group with a dirge, not to say with templer. You guys get 40% without any group buff. So which one is better? Oh, ya, 1.5k-2k or even 8k if you have avatar 2h damage of 40% aoe frontal is worse than 16%-22% 250-400 damage proc. LOLDude, you dare to post, but you can't convince anyone.</span></span></span>-The second is 4% base melee crit difference in favor of warriors.<cite></cite></blockquote></blockquote>It finally just comes down to a completely transparent lack of want and ability to see how to improve and any improvements that are on the way.Is the increase of 20 AAs per tree going to solve all of the problems? No one has said it will.<span style="color: #993399;">It's not going to solve anything, it's worse since kos and eof tree are imbalanced in each class.</span>Will it benefit the classes greatly and make up/expand the difference for those that know what they are doing? Yes, absolutely.<span style="color: #993399;">Ya, especially for guardian since guardian has both overpowered kos and eof tree. For brawler, we are totally [Removed for Content] again.</span></blockquote>

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EQ2Luv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I didn't compare those two.  I said you can get int5 by reallocating less points than a brawler must spend to get their 12% reuse.  To say that there are better ways to spend your points is to say that the brawler's reuse skill is not as good as whatever you're buying in the warrior tree.  In other words the warrior tree is better than the brawler tree. No one said we suck, we just said warrior tree is way better, and you support that assertion even as you try to argue against it.  Also you seem to be talking about current best builds rather than what they will be when you have 20 more AA which is the actual topic of this thread... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Sorry misunderstood the way you had presented it then.I am talking only about the builds possible, not the ones now, if it is only the ones now, no one in their right mind would ever touch Int5 for warriors while Agi3 for brawlers is one of the best possible choices.</blockquote>Meaning the 'no way' option for warriors is one of the best brawler choices.  See how this would seem to imply that warriors have better options? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>No, meaning that there is not a way to take it without gimping your build right now.</blockquote>Ok, if what you said is true, it just shows how sucks brawler tree is since the worst choice in warrior tree is a very viable choice in brawler tree. It's a simple logic and you can't understand?The reason that you dont even bother to choice int 5 is bcz it's not GOOD ENOUGH. You have more better choices than it. Haste of reuse is definitely useful. It's not a trash ability. However, it's not good enough comparing to what you can get in warrior. That's why you didn't choose it.It's plain and simple, warrior tree is overpowered bu what you have posted.

[Kaoru]

I would love to follow couching and pagansaints debate, but all the colors remind me of a bad acid trip.

[tt66]

<cite>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to follow couching and pagansaints debate, but all the colors remind me of a bad acid trip.</blockquote>Oh, I wouldn't worry about it. History suggests that they'll end up having exactly the same debate in multiple threads all across the boards for the next few days or so! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Couching]

<cite>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to follow couching and pagansaints debate, but all the colors remind me of a bad acid trip.</blockquote>I can make a summary:Pagansaints' point can be concluded into one phrase: <b></b><b><i>Double standard.</i></b>His excuses of why warrior tree is by far better over brawler tree is that guardian and zerker need to tank so that they can't get dps spec and dps suit.He kept comparing brawler with dps suit, for example, he said brawler can have 30-35%%+ critical with dps suit comparing to 25% guardian with tank suit.Or how brawler can fully spec to dps comparing to guardian and zerker to tanking spec. My point is straight. No.Why? Bcz brawler is tank as well as warrior. Most raiding brawlers have to play off tank role in raids. I am not going to tank with my dps suit. When I have my tank suit, my critical is only 21%. See, comparing to 25% guardian, we are much worse. If brawler can't off tank, then most raid leader will replace brawler by a true dps class. There is no reason to invite a 2nd rate dps who can't off tank.It's the same logic on how to spec kos and eof aa. I am not going to fully spec to dps and give up our crapy tank bonus in kos aa. Even it's crappy comparing to warrior tree, but I will still get it for extra tiny survivability. Though, it's really unfair to brawler, we need much better tanking abilities in our kos tree.Let's see why warrior tree is overpowered? For example, buckler line. It is totally game breaking ability since it gives you not only 60% double attack but also uncontested avoidance. For DW, it's only equal to 50% double attack, but warruor got 60% with uncontested avoidance. Or Acceleration strike, 25% casting speed, recovery time and 38 haste, is much better than flurry baton, not to say 40% frontal aoe.With extra 20 aa points on kos and eof tree, guardian is overpowered. Is zerker screwed? No, since zerker was already overpowered with kos tree.

[Madmoon]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote>When all is said and done, double attack will always be better long term than proc-based damage, simply because the double-attack will scale with better weapons whereas the procs will remain static.However, I'm not in the beta and so I have no idea as to what changes are being made, how the AA trees are being tweaked, etc. etc. So I just have to hope for the best and rely on the beta-testers! </blockquote>Stop trying to be reasonable here!  We're here to rant and shout, run about, and all that.  I just finished my Hooluk Hat quest, and chose the sweatband over the inverted wok which is <i>exactly</i> the wrong gear to wear when the sky is falling!

[Spark]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Stop trying to be reasonable here!  We're here to rant and shout, run about, and all that.  I just finished my Hooluk Hat quest, and chose the sweatband over the inverted wok which is <i>exactly</i> the wrong gear to wear when the sky is falling!</blockquote>Thats so true... so true...*Spark looks a little bit frightened at the sky*OOC:Ok, what do we have until now? 5 sites of mathematics, why arent we talking about the most important point?  Do you enjoy to play your class?I enjoy to play my class as a group tank, or as dps in groups. I dont enjoy to play my class as a dps class or tank in a raid.Theres no mathematic in there, it`s just how i feel and I would like to see that changed, so that I can enjoy 100% of the game. (And it seems I`m not the only one who thinks that way) How to do this, is the duty of the Devs and I think there are enough Ideas from the community without talking about "I want 1% more crit, cause he has that" and the other says "I want to have this buff, cause the man over there has in the parses 2,5374659376 dps ZW more than me".Sorry people but its ridiculous. This is a MMORPG and the MM stands for Massivily Multiplayer, means youre playing with other people. If you wanna be God and be able to solo everything, play a single player game. Balancing a game like this is utopian.Sorry for my english, isnt my mother tongue <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Greets Spark

[PaganSaint]

<p>couching, I understand what you are trying to do, that you are bitter about the lack of options and lack of ability you see in the brawler classes. That does not mean you should spout endless arguments about how this or that is overpowered in <i>those other classes'</i> AA trees or <i>that class in particular's</i> abilities when I, and others at lesser length and patience, are using examples of and concentrating on the brawler classes you are bitter about, of options and ideas of improvements, arguments for the classes that you just brush aside.</p><p><cite><a href="mailto:Couching@Crushbone" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Couching@Crushbone</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to follow couching and pagansaints debate, but all the colors remind me of a bad acid trip.</blockquote><p>I can make a summary:Pagansaints' point can be concluded into one phrase: <b><i>Double standard.</i></b></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Excepting the fact that this is a gross twisting of what I had said I will respond anyways.</span>His excuses of why warrior tree is by far better over brawler tree is that guardian and zerker need to tank so that they can't get dps spec and dps suit. <span style="color: #cc6600;">I never even approached saying this, try again, but use something credible and not a twisting of something I said to fit your bias  of the situation.</span>He kept comparing brawler with dps suit, for example, he said brawler can have 30-35%%+ critical with dps suit comparing to 25% guardian with tank suit. <span style="color: #cc6600;">Wrong again, I compared the larger survival difference between the melee crit leather pieces and the plate mail that is a large part of a warriors survivability, the difference between crit leather pieces and the tanking type leather that brawlers use, and then I compared the differences between how those previous two differences effect the disparate tanking styles of the two class types. </span>Or how brawler can fully spec to dps comparing to guardian and zerker to tanking spec. <span style="color: #cc6600;">I will hazard a guess for the first time here to say that you are referring to my knowledge of the spec's available to both class types. I never said a warrior cannot spec for DPS, I was refuting your less knowledgable claim that the best warrior DPS spec was one of the best, it gets muddled in your posts, or the best tanking spec. Which is not true now, nor will it be when another 20 AAs are able to be assigned to the KoS tree.</span> </p><p>My point is straight. No.Why? Bcz brawler is tank as well as warrior. Most raiding brawlers have to play off tank role in raids. I am not going to tank with my dps suit. When I have my tank suit, my critical is only 21%. See, comparing to 25% guardian, we are much worse. If brawler can't off tank, then most raid leader will replace brawler by a true dps class. There is no reason to invite a 2nd rate dps who can't off tank. </p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">4% Is not much worse. It is slightly worse. Especially when taken in light of your claim of the best DPS spec for rogues, a class which by your assumptions it is safe to say you do not play, does not include any innate from AAs melee crit chance.</span>It's the same logic on how to spec kos and eof aa. I am not going to fully spec to dps and give up our crapy tank bonus in kos aa. Even it's crappy comparing to warrior tree, but I will still get it for extra tiny survivability. Though, it's really unfair to brawler, we need much better tanking abilities in our kos tree.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">I had already tried at great length, which you know, to bring the horrible tanking AA options to the Dev's attention. That is not to say that you are fully correct, a full DPS spec is perfect for what you are asking for, to be a competent OT, here is a clue from the top tanks WW, DPS is aggro, without aggro, you are not tanking.</span> </p><p>Let's see why warrior tree is overpowered? For example, buckler line. It is totally game breaking ability since it gives you not only 60% double attack but also uncontested avoidance. For DW, it's only equal to 50% double attack, but warruor got 60% with uncontested avoidance. Or Acceleration strike, 25% casting speed, recovery time and 38 haste, is much better than flurry baton, not to say 40% frontal aoe.</p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">Here you are yet again crying nerf for another class when you could be trying to find ways to garner the attention needed to change a completely worthless AA line for Brawlers that could potentially include exactly what you are calling over powered because you do not have it without even a major re-work, just minimal rewording/recoding.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">But for your effort I will respond. Those AAs were developed to bring warrior DPS up to the point where they could hold aggro going from T6 to T7, this was done because the linear progression of taunts cannot keep up with the raw DPS gains the DPS classes achieve with even minimal increases to their abilities not to mention the inclusion of AAs to boost those gains further. 60% Double attack and 8% uncontested avoidance is gained by sacrificing 15% or more uncontested avoidance, and the expenditure of 24, read half of the current AAs. Then there is the choice to make, take haste/spell haste/recov haste or to take AE auto attack. Haste/spell haste/recov haste wins hands down for actual use, yet you use both like they can both be currently taken in your arguments along with taking the melee crit chance you are making such a fuss about. </span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">For the same AA point expenditure for the double attack, avoidance, unmaintainable haste(due to amount of AAs) and crits a brawler can take a short term, fast for its power recast, buff that gives 100% ae auto attack and 100% double attack both, not to mention melee crit chance and maintainable recov haste.</span>With extra 20 aa points on kos and eof tree, guardian is overpowered. Is zerker screwed? No, since zerker was already overpowered with kos tree.</p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">You cry out claims of overpowered, please nerf to make my class better by comparison yet again.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">Not please look at the options you have given us, give us more than this one cookie cutter build that will be available when the other fighter classes will have multiple choices, one(maybe two) choices for tanking and one(maybe two) choices for DPS.</span></p></blockquote><p>What you are failing to see and learn from are the people who have taken what was given, trashed the preconceptions people like you are fostering and succeed at their class to the point of being, as Skel has said, a whole teir of damage capability above him, one of, if not the best geared berserkers.</p><p>Try to keep your cool and maintain a discussion, this last post I quoted was borderline flames, twisted bias and misrepresentation of someone else's posts.</p>

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>couching, I understand what you are trying to do, that you are bitter about the lack of options and lack of ability you see in the brawler classes. That does not mean you should spout endless arguments about how this or that is overpowered in <i>those other classes'</i> AA trees or <i>that class in particular's</i> abilities when I, and others at lesser length and patience, are using examples of and concentrating on the brawler classes you are bitter about, of options and ideas of improvements, arguments for the classes that you just brush aside.</p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Actually, warrior tree is overpowered. Most people agree that warrior tree is best tree all over the fighter trees. Don't try to deny it.  If you do, who care? Since you can't convince people. No matter in eq2flame or here, the common sense is that warrior tree is better than crusader and brawler tree. What you tried to fool people is useless and never work.</span></p><p><cite><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Couching@Crushbone" target="_blank">Couching@Crushbone</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to follow couching and pagansaints debate, but all the colors remind me of a bad acid trip.</blockquote><p>I can make a summary:Pagansaints' point can be concluded into one phrase: <b><i>Double standard.</i></b></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Excepting the fact that this is a gross twisting of what I had said I will respond anyways.</span>His excuses of why warrior tree is by far better over brawler tree is that guardian and zerker need to tank so that they can't get dps spec and dps suit. <span style="color: #cc6600;">I never even approached saying this, try again, but use something credible and not a twisting of something I said to fit your bias  of the situation.</span>He kept comparing brawler with dps suit, for example, he said brawler can have 30-35%%+ critical with dps suit comparing to 25% guardian with tank suit. <span style="color: #cc6600;">Wrong again, I compared the larger survival difference between the melee crit leather pieces and the plate mail that is a large part of a warriors survivability, the difference between crit leather pieces and the tanking type leather that brawlers use, and then I compared the differences between how those previous two differences effect the disparate tanking styles of the two class types. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Then? the result is that when i am on my tank suit, i have only 21% critical comparing guardian and zerker with 25% critical. I will say it again, I am not going to tank with my dps suit since I have 1700 hp and 7% mitigation less. Clear? If 1700 hp and 7% mitigation isn't large enough, how much is large enough?</span></p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Stop muttering. Most high end brawlers have dps suit and tank suit. That's the realty.</span><p>Or how brawler can fully spec to dps comparing to guardian and zerker to tanking spec. <span style="color: #cc6600;">I will hazard a guess for the first time here to say that you are referring to my knowledge of the spec's available to both class types. I never said a warrior cannot spec for DPS, I was refuting your less knowledgable claim that the best warrior DPS spec was one of the best, it gets muddled in your posts, or the best tanking spec. Which is not true now, nor will it be when another 20 AAs are able to be assigned to the KoS tree.</span> </p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Wrong, what I said is that guardian will deal more dps from 40% frontal aoe and narrow the dps gap between zerker and brawler. Though, you kept saying that guardian won't narrow the gap between zerker and brawler. Even skel disagree with you in eq2flame. You can keep muttering. No body is going to agree with you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Guardian get most benefit from the extra 20 in kos and eof is hard cold truth.</span></p><p>My point is straight. No.Why? Bcz brawler is tank as well as warrior. Most raiding brawlers have to play off tank role in raids. I am not going to tank with my dps suit. When I have my tank suit, my critical is only 21%. See, comparing to 25% guardian, we are much worse. If brawler can't off tank, then most raid leader will replace brawler by a true dps class. There is no reason to invite a 2nd rate dps who can't off tank. </p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">4% Is not much worse. It is slightly worse. Especially when taken in light of your claim of the best DPS spec for rogues, a class which by your assumptions it is safe to say you do not play, does not include any innate from AAs melee crit chance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">4% is not much worse? Hi man, that's about 20% more and it's not much? You are so wrong.</span>It's the same logic on how to spec kos and eof aa. I am not going to fully spec to dps and give up our crapy tank bonus in kos aa. Even it's crappy comparing to warrior tree, but I will still get it for extra tiny survivability. Though, it's really unfair to brawler, we need much better tanking abilities in our kos tree.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">I had already tried at great length, which you know, to bring the horrible tanking AA options to the Dev's attention. That is not to say that you are fully correct, a full DPS spec is perfect for what you are asking for, to be a competent OT, here is a clue from the top tanks WW, DPS is aggro, without aggro, you are not tanking.</span> </p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Ya, a dead brawler can be a good off tank? No. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">If your statement is true, then most guardian will fully spec to dps. What's about reality? No, most guardian didn't fully spec to dps since survivability is also important. </span></p><p>Let's see why warrior tree is overpowered? For example, buckler line. It is totally game breaking ability since it gives you not only 60% double attack but also uncontested avoidance. For DW, it's only equal to 50% double attack, but warruor got 60% with uncontested avoidance. Or Acceleration strike, 25% casting speed, recovery time and 38 haste, is much better than flurry baton, not to say 40% frontal aoe.</p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">Here you are yet again crying nerf for another class when you could be trying to find ways to garner the attention needed to change a completely worthless AA line for Brawlers that could potentially include exactly what you are calling over powered because you do not have it without even a major re-work, just minimal rewording/recoding.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">But for your effort I will respond. Those AAs were developed to bring warrior DPS up to the point where they could hold aggro going from T6 to T7, this was done because the linear progression of taunts cannot keep up with the raw DPS gains the DPS classes achieve with even minimal increases to their abilities not to mention the inclusion of AAs to boost those gains further. 60% Double attack and 8% uncontested avoidance is gained by sacrificing 15% or more uncontested avoidance, and the expenditure of 24, read half of the current AAs. Then there is the choice to make, take haste/spell haste/recov haste or to take AE auto attack. Haste/spell haste/recov haste wins hands down for actual use, yet you use both like they can both be currently taken in your arguments along with taking the melee crit chance you are making such a fuss about.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">For the same AA point expenditure for the double attack, avoidance, unmaintainable haste(due to amount of AAs) and crits a brawler can take a short term, fast for its power recast, buff that gives 100% ae auto attack and 100% double attack both, not to mention melee crit chance and maintainable recov haste.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Your logic is flawed again Why? Because you missed th main point, <b><i>guardian and zerker can DW as well as brawler.</i></b> Stop saying that they sacrifice more uncontested for better dps. No, if they want dps, they should DW as brawler rather than getting uncontested bonus. Moreover, it's not 15% since you can get 12% uncontested avoidance back from 4th ability in sta line.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">It's simple. You want more dps? Fine, go with DW or 2h as brawler and get the penalty as brawler, no extra uncontested avoidance from shield. </span></p><span style="color: #0033cc;">See, that's why stop saying that warrior are so poor since they sacrifice so much to get both 60% double attack and uncontested avoidance. No, the truth is, you get not only double attack, but also uncontested avoidance.It's so lame and can't convince people. You shouldn't get both dps and uncontested avoidance at same time. It is overpowered.</span><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">With extra 20 aa points on kos and eof tree, guardian is overpowered. Is zerker screwed? No, since zerker was already overpowered with kos tree.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">You cry out claims of overpowered, please nerf to make my class better by comparison yet again.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;"><span style="color: #0033cc;">No, it's most of people. Warrior tree is best over crusader and brawler. It's hard cold truth.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">Not please look at the options you have given us, give us more than this one cookie cutter build that will be available when the other fighter classes will have multiple choices, one(maybe two) choices for tanking and one(maybe two) choices for DPS.</span></p></blockquote><p>What you are failing to see and learn from are the people who have taken what was given, trashed the preconceptions people like you are fostering and succeed at their class to the point of being, as Skel has said, a whole teir of damage capability above him, one of, if not the best geared berserkers.</p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">I am waiting on when you can understand your logic is flawed. Being best with what you have is one thing, class balance is another.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">You should stop your double standard and face the realty, warrior tree is overpowered.</span></p><p>Try to keep your cool and maintain a discussion, this last post I quoted was borderline flames, twisted bias and misrepresentation of someone else's posts.</p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Why so many people jump on to be against you?  You are not going to convince people with double standard.</span></p></blockquote>

[Talathion]

<p>2 Words you REALLY need to learn</p><p>- Soulfire Kama</p><p>- Grim Brimstone hammer</p><p>16% Uncontested Double attack (Does work with more then just primary weapon)</p><p>4000+ DPS ZW w/ Right Group Setup,</p><p>EoF Berserkers can get Grim Brimstone Hammer, and Buckler Of the howler,</p><p>And We can do 2300 - [3500 on Area] ZW on Single Target, Compared to KoS Brawlers (Not monks using Craneflock)</p><p>I would Gladly Throw away my EoF Tree For Bruisers, And I hate people who complain when they dont know how to play there class, Ive seen Bruisers out DPS Rangers on Some Occations, but Bruisers Have Really gotten Stronger, The KoS Tree We have probably is Overpowered, But what backs that up? its all we have.. While Monks and Bruisers have alot bigger damage CA's, More Utility, and better EoF Trees, Wheres my Love? Sure! Give me a New Tree with goodies like Feign Death, Drag, and maybe I wouldnt Complain, So what if I have 7% more Mitigation then you do, that means you can have the best goodies in the game, 1000 more Single Target DPS</p><p>Monk - T1 DPS, T2 Utility, T3 Tank</p><p>Bruiser - T1 DPS, T1 Utility, T4 Tank</p><p>Berserker - T2 DPS, T2 Tank (This Class HAS no Utility)</p><p>Guardian - T2 DPS, T3 Utility, T1 Tank</p>

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>couching, I understand what you are trying to do, that you are bitter about the lack of options and lack of ability you see in the brawler classes. That does not mean you should spout endless arguments about how this or that is overpowered in <i>those other classes'</i> AA trees or <i>that class in particular's</i> abilities when I, and others at lesser length and patience, are using examples of and concentrating on the brawler classes you are bitter about, of options and ideas of improvements, arguments for the classes that you just brush aside.</p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Actually, warrior tree is overpowered. Most people agree that warrior tree is best tree all over the fighter trees. Don't try to deny it.  If you do, who care? Since you can't convince people. No matter in eq2flame or here, the common sense is that warrior tree is better than crusader and brawler tree. What you tried to fool people is useless and never work.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Please start responding to what I actually write. Your over zealous, must whine about the warrior tree in every paragraph does you no good.</span></p><p><cite><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Couching@Crushbone" target="_blank">Couching@Crushbone</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to follow couching and pagansaints debate, but all the colors remind me of a bad acid trip.</blockquote><p>I can make a summary:Pagansaints' point can be concluded into one phrase: <b><i>Double standard.</i></b></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Excepting the fact that this is a gross twisting of what I had said I will respond anyways.</span>His excuses of why warrior tree is by far better over brawler tree is that guardian and zerker need to tank so that they can't get dps spec and dps suit. <span style="color: #cc6600;">I never even approached saying this, try again, but use something credible and not a twisting of something I said to fit your bias  of the situation.</span>He kept comparing brawler with dps suit, for example, he said brawler can have 30-35%%+ critical with dps suit comparing to 25% guardian with tank suit. <span style="color: #cc6600;">Wrong again, I compared the larger survival difference between the melee crit leather pieces and the plate mail that is a large part of a warriors survivability, the difference between crit leather pieces and the tanking type leather that brawlers use, and then I compared the differences between how those previous two differences effect the disparate tanking styles of the two class types. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Then? the result is that when i am on my tank suit, i have only 21% critical comparing guardian and zerker with 25% critical. I will say it again, I am not going to tank with my dps suit since I have 1700 hp and 7% mitigation less. Clear? If 1700 hp and 7% mitigation isn't large enough, how much is large enough?</span></p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Stop muttering. Most high end brawlers have dps suit and tank suit. That's the realty.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Stop muttering? Clever. Please respond to what I actually write and maintain through out my posts. I never said that brawlers do not have two suits. I did not say you would tank in the DPS suit. What I had said is plainly obvious. The difference between that melee crit suit for a brawler is exponentially smaller than the difference is for a warrior. It is a very easy concept.</span></span><p>Or how brawler can fully spec to dps comparing to guardian and zerker to tanking spec. <span style="color: #cc6600;">I will hazard a guess for the first time here to say that you are referring to my knowledge of the spec's available to both class types. I never said a warrior cannot spec for DPS, I was refuting your less knowledgable claim that the best warrior DPS spec was one of the best, it gets muddled in your posts, or the best tanking spec. Which is not true now, nor will it be when another 20 AAs are able to be assigned to the KoS tree.</span> </p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Wrong, what I said is that guardian will deal more dps from 40% frontal aoe and narrow the dps gap between zerker and brawler. Though, you kept saying that guardian won't narrow the gap between zerker and brawler. Even skel disagree with you in eq2flame. You can keep muttering. No body is going to agree with you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Except you are now twisting not only what I am saying but what skel is saying also. Skel and I disagree with neither side able to prove either's case as to what would be most effective for berserkers and what the differences would be. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">But this is not about that disagreement, please try to keep yourself focused, you are all over the place and no one with any experience is agreeing with you.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Guardian get most benefit from the extra 20 in kos and eof is hard cold truth.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">He is in full agreement with my stand on what guardian's gain, which is almost completely from the KoS tree, there is nothing to spend points into in the EoF tree that will really make any difference.</span></span></p><p>My point is straight. No.Why? Bcz brawler is tank as well as warrior. Most raiding brawlers have to play off tank role in raids. I am not going to tank with my dps suit. When I have my tank suit, my critical is only 21%. See, comparing to 25% guardian, we are much worse. If brawler can't off tank, then most raid leader will replace brawler by a true dps class. There is no reason to invite a 2nd rate dps who can't off tank. </p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">4% Is not much worse. It is slightly worse. Especially when taken in light of your claim of the best DPS spec for rogues, a class which by your assumptions it is safe to say you do not play, does not include any innate from AAs melee crit chance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">4% is not much worse? Hi man, that's about 20% more and it's not much? You are so wrong.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Or you can read what the actual difference between 4% crits is since you have little to no experience other than looking at the raw numbers and extrapolating what it <b><i>must</i></b> mean and missing the mark by far. Lets not forget, you are in full force denial that DW rogues are better DPS than 1h agi/wis rogues who have no innate melee crit chance.</span></p><p>It's the same logic on how to spec kos and eof aa. I am not going to fully spec to dps and give up our crapy tank bonus in kos aa. Even it's crappy comparing to warrior tree, but I will still get it for extra tiny survivability. Though, it's really unfair to brawler, we need much better tanking abilities in our kos tree.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">I had already tried at great length, which you know, to bring the horrible tanking AA options to the Dev's attention. That is not to say that you are fully correct, a full DPS spec is perfect for what you are asking for, to be a competent OT, here is a clue from the top tanks WW, DPS is aggro, without aggro, you are not tanking.</span> </p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Ya, a dead brawler can be a good off tank? No. </span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">If your statement is true, then most guardian will fully spec to dps. What's about reality? No, most guardian didn't fully spec to dps since survivability is also important. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">They have been spec'ing out of the defensive spec's with the only consideration being the actual buckler itself, not Gladiator's Revenge at all and relying upon their contested avoidance and their raid's debuffs to make up the difference.</span></p><p>Let's see why warrior tree is overpowered? For example, buckler line. It is totally game breaking ability since it gives you not only 60% double attack but also uncontested avoidance. For DW, it's only equal to 50% double attack, but warruor got 60% with uncontested avoidance. Or Acceleration strike, 25% casting speed, recovery time and 38 haste, is much better than flurry baton, not to say 40% frontal aoe.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Here you are yet again crying nerf for another class when you could be trying to find ways to garner the attention needed to change a completely worthless AA line for Brawlers that could potentially include exactly what you are calling over powered because you do not have it without even a major re-work, just minimal rewording/recoding.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">But for your effort I will respond. Those AAs were developed to bring warrior DPS up to the point where they could hold aggro going from T6 to T7, this was done because the linear progression of taunts cannot keep up with the raw DPS gains the DPS classes achieve with even minimal increases to their abilities not to mention the inclusion of AAs to boost those gains further. 60% Double attack and 8% uncontested avoidance is gained by sacrificing 15% or more uncontested avoidance, and the expenditure of 24, read half of the current AAs. Then there is the choice to make, take haste/spell haste/recov haste or to take AE auto attack. Haste/spell haste/recov haste wins hands down for actual use, yet you use both like they can both be currently taken in your arguments along with taking the melee crit chance you are making such a fuss about.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">For the same AA point expenditure for the double attack, avoidance, unmaintainable haste(due to amount of AAs) and crits a brawler can take a short term, fast for its power recast, buff that gives 100% ae auto attack and 100% double attack both, not to mention melee crit chance and maintainable recov haste.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Your logic is flawed again Why? Because you missed th main point, <b><i>guardian and zerker can DW as well as brawler.</i></b> Stop saying that they sacrifice more uncontested for better dps. No, if they want dps, they should DW as brawler rather than getting uncontested bonus. Moreover, it's not 15% since you can get 12% uncontested avoidance back from 4th ability in sta line.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">You seriously need to either gain better reading comprehension or if English is not your first language to spend some time with learning the nuances of the language better. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Lets see if I can say it differently so that you can understand: Warriors sacrifice 15%+ uncontested avoidance by dropping their tower shield, with a buckler spec, spending half of their current total AAs they gain 60% double attack and 8% uncontested avoidance. Sacrificing uncontested avoidance and gaining DPS by spending AA points. Also, since you seem not to know, the fourth ability in stamina is called Gladiator's Revenge, it maxes out at 8%, not 12%.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">It's simple. You want more dps? Fine, go with DW or 2h as brawler and get the penalty as brawler, no extra uncontested avoidance from shield.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">And still have that third avoidance check available while using higher DPS options. Albeit it is another contested avoidance check, that means less than you are hyping it to be when your raid debuffs properly.</span> </span></p><span style="color: #0033cc;">See, that's why stop saying that warrior are so poor since they sacrifice so much to get both 60% double attack and uncontested avoidance. No, the truth is, you get not only double attack, but also uncontested avoidance.<span style="color: #ff9900;">I never said warriors are poor. Misrepresenting what I say fools only the fools and yourself, no one of any experience.</span>It's so lame and can't convince people. You shouldn't get both dps and uncontested avoidance at same time. It is overpowered.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Oh how quickly your tune would change if the SoE Developers took what I have been pushing for months to change Str4 to for brawlers.Lets not forget the shattering effects actual application and looking at said application has upon your argument.</span></span><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">With extra 20 aa points on kos and eof tree, guardian is overpowered. Is zerker screwed? No, since zerker was already overpowered with kos tree.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">You cry out claims of overpowered, please nerf to make my class better by comparison yet again.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;"><span style="color: #0033cc;">No, it's most of people. Warrior tree is best over crusader and brawler. It's hard cold truth.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #cc9900;">Not please look at the options you have given us, give us more than this one cookie cutter build that will be available when the other fighter classes will have multiple choices, one(maybe two) choices for tanking and one(maybe two) choices for DPS.</span></p></blockquote><p>What you are failing to see and learn from are the people who have taken what was given, trashed the preconceptions people like you are fostering and succeed at their class to the point of being, as Skel has said, a whole teir of damage capability above him, one of, if not the best geared berserkers.</p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">I am waiting on when you can understand your logic is flawed. Being best with what you have is one thing, class balance is another.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">My logic is not flawed. You are perpetually and intentionally blind I have come to find out to the actual situation.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">I really want to know how you can preach all day and night to those who do not know better that brawlers suck in the face of people who are using the, as you said it, being the best with what you have to establish and show that class balance that most people fall short of.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">It is player skill that is a determining difference, be it player skill in determining group set ups or player skill in actual play of the class. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Skill with their AAs and Class Abilities is the thing that allows those brawlers to out distance and put brawlers in relation of best player of one class to best player in another on top of warriors. Claiming that it is not so when they prove their class balance time and time again is idiocy, plain and simple.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">You should stop your double standard and face the realty, warrior tree is overpowered.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">You should stop your blind ranting and respond to what was written, and quit with the over played "overpowered" card in response to what anyone says about anything.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Those who know what they are doing are putting themselves a full damage tier above warriors equally as well geared as they are. Start asking questions instead of this ranting and you may be able to raise yourself above equally geared players to yourself just as they have.</span></p><p>Try to keep your cool and maintain a discussion, this last post I quoted was borderline flames, twisted bias and misrepresentation of someone else's posts.</p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Why so many people jump on to be against you?  You are not going to convince people with double standard.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">There have been more responses of top played brawlers for me than there have been badly played brawlers in argument.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>Excuses and replying over and over again that someone else is overpowered does nothing for the purpose I know you are actually striving for, to get the brawler KoS AA tree changed, specifically making the Strength line usable for everyone, not just the idiots.I am tired of having to reply to your, I will be kind, misrepresentation of what I say and biased selective answering.You have de-railed the thread enough with your crusade to show everyone that you think the warrior AAs are overpowered, we get it, you think they are. Either be able to start a new post without quoting me, without twisting what I or the above poster said, with your thoughts and ideas for the class to get this thread back on track or stop posting.

[Novusod]

It is very clear by the direction the game is going that Zerkers and Guardians will be out dps'ing brawlers for the foreseeable future. The truth is this does not matter because at the end of the day the Bruiser is a tank class not a dps class. The Bruiser class will live and die based on how well it can tank. In this regard it is our EoF AA's that are under powered. Adding some mitigation AA as well as an uncontested avoidance AA that gives the bruiser at least a kite shield would put the bruiser back in the running as a serious raid tank. It has been said again and again about how absurd it is that the mitigation tanks get more uncontested avoidance than the avoidance tank. This can all be fixed if they just give us some AA that makes Bruisers avoidance and mitigation equal to all other tanks.

[Couching]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Actually, warrior tree is overpowered. Most people agree that warrior tree is best tree all over the fighter trees. Don't try to deny it.  If you do, who care? Since you can't convince people. No matter in eq2flame or here, the common sense is that warrior tree is better than crusader and brawler tree. What you tried to fool people is useless and never work.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Please start responding to what I actually write. Your over zealous, must whine about the warrior tree in every paragraph does you no good.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006666;">That's what you should do, stop muttering and answer my post. From the beginning of this thread, the point is that warrior and guardian tree are better than brawler tree and zerker, bruiser and monk tree. I am always on track but you are not.</span></p><p><cite><a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:Couching@Crushbone" target="_blank">Couching@Crushbone</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would love to follow couching and pagansaints debate, but all the colors remind me of a bad acid trip.</blockquote><span style="color: #0033cc;">Then? the result is that when i am on my tank suit, i have only 21% critical comparing guardian and zerker with 25% critical. I will say it again, I am not going to tank with my dps suit since I have 1700 hp and 7% mitigation less. Clear? If 1700 hp and 7% mitigation isn't large enough, how much is large enough?</span><span style="color: #0033cc;">Stop muttering. Most high end brawlers have dps suit and tank suit. That's the realty.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Stop muttering? Clever. Please respond to what I actually write and maintain through out my posts. I never said that brawlers do not have two suits. I did not say you would tank in the DPS suit. What I had said is plainly obvious. The difference between that melee crit suit for a brawler is exponentially smaller than the difference is for a warrior. It is a very easy concept.<span style="color: #006699;">You dare ask me to respond what you have said? LOLFirst, it's YOU jumped on to debate with me in the beginning with lame excuses that brawler has more critical than warrior in raid even warrior has more critical from warrior tree.I told you NO since we have to tank with tank suit. With tank suit, we have less critical than warrior. If brawler and warrior didn't need to tank, both can switch to dps suit and warrior still has more critical than brawler.Then what's your response? Your response is that the gap between leather tank suit between dps suit is less than the gap between plate tank suit and dps suit. Dude, it's none of the business of my point. Who care which one has less difference since my point is that when brawler has to tank, we have less critical, when we don't need to tank, brawler still has less critical than warrior with dps suit.Your reply didn't answer my question any bit. Your logic is totally screwed. </span></span></span><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Except you are now twisting not only what I am saying but what skel is saying also. Skel and I disagree with neither side able to prove either's case as to what would be most effective for berserkers and what the differences would be. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">But this is not about that disagreement, please try to keep yourself focused, you are all over the place and no one with any experience is agreeing with you.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #006699;">Dude, you can keep lying. Anyone can access to eq2flame and he will know if skel or other zerkers are complaining that guardian is overpowered with extra 20 points in eof and kos tree or not. Keep lying, dude.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">He is in full agreement with my stand on what guardian's gain, which is almost completely from the KoS tree, there is nothing to spend points into in the EoF tree that will really make any difference.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">4% is not much worse? Hi man, that's about 20% more and it's not much? You are so wrong.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Or you can read what the actual difference between 4% crits is since you have little to no experience other than looking at the raw numbers and extrapolating what it <b><i>must</i></b> mean and missing the mark by far. Lets not forget, you are in full force denial that DW rogues are better DPS than 1h agi/wis rogues who have no innate melee crit chance.</span></p><span style="color: #006699;">Again, you are muttering. My point is simple. Extra 4% critical helps warrior dps. That's hard cold truth. Don't tell me that warrior did less dps with extra 4% critical. Your reply is totally unrelated to what I said.</span><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">They have been spec'ing out of the defensive spec's with the only consideration being the actual buckler itself, not Gladiator's Revenge at all and relying upon their contested avoidance and their raid's debuffs to make up the difference.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">Again, your logic is flawed. You have said that 2h or DW is dps for warrior. In other word, any kind of shield, no matter tower shield or buckler, gives you extra defensive bonus. Not to say Gladiator revenge gives you 8% uncontested avoidance. </span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">You reply just perfectly matched what I said, warrior didn't fully spec in dps. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">So, stop asking brawler to fully spec to dps since brawler has to off tank in raid.</span></p><span style="color: #0033cc;">Your logic is flawed again Why? Because you missed th main point, <b><i>guardian and zerker can DW as well as brawler.</i></b> Stop saying that they sacrifice more uncontested for better dps. No, if they want dps, they should DW as brawler rather than getting uncontested bonus. Moreover, it's not 15% since you can get 12% uncontested avoidance back from 4th ability in sta line.</span><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">You seriously need to either gain better reading comprehension or if English is not your first language to spend some time with learning the nuances of the language better. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;"><span style="color: #006699;">Your problem is not just English. Your problem is that you haven't any logic comprehension. It makes almost impossible to discuss with you. </span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Lets see if I can say it differently so that you can understand: Warriors sacrifice 15%+ uncontested avoidance by dropping their tower shield, with a buckler spec, spending half of their current total AAs they gain 60% double attack and 8% uncontested avoidance. Sacrificing uncontested avoidance and gaining DPS by spending AA points. Also, since you seem not to know, the fourth ability in stamina is called Gladiator's Revenge, it maxes out at 8%, not 12%.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #006699;">Stop lying. Tower shield gives you 19% uncontested avoidance and buckler gives you 8%. Now, you have not only problem in English and Logic comprehension, you have problem in math. Not to say, with 8% uncontested avoidance from Gladiator revenge, the difference between buckler and tower shield is smaller.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">Dude, you spent aa to get 60% double attack with only 3% uncontested difference to tower shield. </span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">If your logic is true,  ya, warrior has to sacrifice to get 22% critical..lol, ya...how  poor warrior is.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #006699;">They need to sacrifice aa to get 22% critical, 60% double, and 40% aoe. Dude, can you stop sacrifice?</span></span></p></blockquote><p>What you are failing to see and learn from are the people who have taken what was given, trashed the preconceptions people like you are fostering and succeed at their class to the point of being, as Skel has said, a whole teir of damage capability above him, one of, if not the best geared berserkers.</p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;">I am waiting on when you can understand your logic is flawed. Being best with what you have is one thing, class balance is another.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">My logic is not flawed. You are perpetually and intentionally blind I have come to find out to the actual situation.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">I really want to know how you can preach all day and night to those who do not know better that brawlers suck in the face of people who are using the, as you said it, being the best with what you have to establish and show that class balance that most people fall short of.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">It is player skill that is a determining difference, be it player skill in determining group set ups or player skill in actual play of the class.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0033cc;"><span style="color: #ff9900;">Skill with their AAs and Class Abilities is the thing that allows those brawlers to out distance and put brawlers in relation of best player of one class to best player in another on top of warriors. Claiming that it is not so when they prove their class balance time and time again is idiocy, plain and simple.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">Dude, what I said is nothing related to player skill. It's game mechanics. You can keep bickering and made this discussion to be blocked. Though, you can't convince people. </span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">Even you have admitted that zerker and guardian can hit 2k+ ZW without contested weapon as well as brawler. Where is the gap between brawler and warrior? Where is the gap between guardian and zerker? </span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">Player skill? You better show me any monk hit 2.5k ZW without contested weapons. In fact, a lot of monks with contested weapon did only 2.2k-2.3k ZW, not to say monk without contested weapon.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">Oh, I can foresee your lame excuse before you even reply. Those monk suck. They don't have any skill. haha.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">You should stop your blind ranting and respond to what was written, and quit with the over played "overpowered" card in response to what anyone says about anything.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Those who know what they are doing are putting themselves a full damage tier above warriors equally as well geared as they are. Start asking questions instead of this ranting and you may be able to raise yourself above equally geared players to yourself just as they have.</span></p><span style="color: #006699;">Dude, I can understand why you are bickering since your main was guardian. However, be more reasonable and stop trying to fool people around. It's useless. It's not going to work.</span><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">There have been more responses of top played brawlers for me than there have been badly played brawlers in argument.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006699;">/yawn, that's the lamest excuse you can, huh? </span></p></blockquote></blockquote>Excuses and replying over and over again that someone else is overpowered does nothing for the purpose I know you are actually striving for, to get the brawler KoS AA tree changed, specifically making the Strength line usable for everyone, not just the idiots.I am tired of having to reply to your, I will be kind, misrepresentation of what I say and biased selective answering.You have de-railed the thread enough with your crusade to show everyone that you think the warrior AAs are overpowered, we get it, you think they are. Either be able to start a new post without quoting me, without twisting what I or the above poster said, with your thoughts and ideas for the class to get this thread back on track or stop posting.<span style="color: #006699;">What you said is perfectly what I want to tell you. Stop muttering and learn how to read, learn what logic is, and last, learn what math is.Dude, it's  YOU jumped on my post so that it's you forced me to reply your pointless posts. Stop bickering. I am really tired to reply since most of your reply is out of topic.</span></blockquote>

[[email protected]]

<cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>2 Words you REALLY need to learn</p><p>- Soulfire Kama</p><p>- Grim Brimstone hammer</p><p>16% Uncontested Double attack (Does work with more then just primary weapon)</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000;">4000+ DPS ZW w/ Right Group Setup,</span></b></p><p>EoF Berserkers can get Grim Brimstone Hammer, and Buckler Of the howler,</p><p>And We can do 2300 - [3500 on Area] ZW on Single Target, Compared to KoS Brawlers (Not monks using Craneflock)</p><p>I would Gladly Throw away my EoF Tree For Bruisers, And I hate people who complain when they dont know how to play there class, Ive seen Bruisers out DPS Rangers on Some Occations, but Bruisers Have Really gotten Stronger, The KoS Tree We have probably is Overpowered, But what backs that up? its all we have.. While Monks and Bruisers have alot bigger damage CA's, More Utility, and better EoF Trees, Wheres my Love? Sure! Give me a New Tree with goodies like Feign Death, Drag, and maybe I wouldnt Complain, So what if I have 7% more Mitigation then you do, that means you can have the best goodies in the game, 1000 more Single Target DPS</p><p>Monk - T1 DPS, T2 Utility, T3 Tank</p><p>Bruiser - T1 DPS, T1 Utility, T4 Tank</p><p>Berserker - T2 DPS, T2 Tank (This Class HAS no Utility)</p><p>Guardian - T2 DPS, T3 Utility, T1 Tank</p></blockquote><p>4000 DPS ZONE WIDE ??????</p><p>Put the crack pipe downYour post is so full of lies it is like i am reading the comics.</p>

[Talathion]

My Bad, more like 3640

[tt66]

<cite>InsaneChaosMarine wrote:</cite><blockquote>My Bad, more like 3640</blockquote>Bruisers. Do 3640 dps. Zonewide.Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and ignore everything you say from now on, but thanks for stopping by our forums!

[Xanrn]

<p>Well atleast Warriors actually have 5 AA lines from the KoS brawlers only have 4.</p><p>The STR line needs to be fixed to be useful for end game brawlers. It not even that hard for godsake, but when the Devs tried to fix it they turned it from a line nobody with decent weapons would take to a line noone would take cause it sucked so hard.</p><p>Say it with me 5% Double Attack per point, thats 40% which is not overpowering.</p><p>The Monk EoF tree needs to be fixed, well the right side anyway the left is good. But all 3 end abilities suck, the dethreat doesn't do enough, super riposte or whatever sucks, the KO combo is something I would expect to get for a tier 5 CA.</p><p>Brawlers are not tanks, the plate classes will always be better in group or raid. We used to be good back before DoF but then they royally screwed us.</p><p>We should be moved in with the Scouts and back to our EQ1 roots.</p><p>Also am I the only one who sees Pagansaints use adornments to patch our crappy defence as utterly hillarious especially as the other Tanks classes can do it.</p><p>I wish I had the time and patience to level an Alt. So I could give up on trying to the Devs to fix Monks.</p>

[PaganSaint]

<cite>Xanrn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well atleast Warriors actually have 5 AA lines from the KoS brawlers only have 4.</p><p>The STR line needs to be fixed to be useful for end game brawlers. It not even that hard for godsake, but when the Devs tried to fix it they turned it from a line nobody with decent weapons would take to a line noone would take cause it sucked so hard.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">This is without any doubt the largest problem the vast majority can agree on. When you have people with as disparate views upon the class all agree upon one thing you would think SoE would eventually realize there is a legitimate fix needed.</span></p><p>Say it with me 5% Double Attack per point, thats 40% which is not overpowering.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Its not overpowered at only 40%, but there are ways that would extend this from 40% to ~95% with just the current gear and buffs available and that would be. The only thing to nerf without far, far reaching problems would be the AA line that gave this amount to brawlers.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">I do believe you are on the right track with this though, and have thought that 2% Double Attack per point would be more than enough to extend the edge already attainable to be, as everyone can agree, appropriate/</span></p><p>The Monk EoF tree needs to be fixed, well the right side anyway the left is good. But all 3 end abilities suck, the dethreat doesn't do enough, super riposte or whatever sucks, the KO combo is something I would expect to get for a tier 5 CA.</p><p>Brawlers are not tanks, the plate classes will always be better in group or raid. We used to be good back before DoF but then they royally screwed us.</p><p>We should be moved in with the Scouts and back to our EQ1 roots.</p><p>Also am I the only one who sees Pagansaints use adornments to patch our crappy defence as utterly hillarious especially as the other Tanks classes can do it.</p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">Except I was not specifically talking about using adornments to patch brawler avoidance(which I will assume is what you mean by defense).</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">I was asking for more weapons to be available to brawlers to be +riposte% adorned because of the amount of influence the +riposte% adornment can have upon our Retribution of Stone ability. </span></p><p><span style="color: #cc6600;">The added uncontested avoidance is just that, an added plus to improving the amount of triggered Retribution of Stone stone skin proc's.</span></p><p>I wish I had the time and patience to level an Alt. So I could give up on trying to the Devs to fix Monks.</p></blockquote>

[Xanrn]

<p>Only Bruisers have Retrubition of Stone.</p><p>Also 2% double attack per point is crap.</p><p>16% for 8 point yeah thats worth it.</p><p>Also where the hell are you getting 55% double attack from. That can't also be applied to other classes who have more than 16% double attack self buffed.</p><p>You do not use gear or buffs from other classes to balance the classes, this is flawed thinking.</p><p>You balance classes by what they can do with full mastercrafted and adept I/III.</p>

[PaganSaint]

Balancing classes only upon what they are capable of with their own buffs and no equipment? You cannot balance something by isolating it from the factors used to determine its success. If that is the case then all of these arguments of how something parses in raids is invalid, we should be measuring what needs to be balanced by how well a class can parse solo, soloing, with no outside buffs and only mastercrafted weapons.This balances the classes only for that situation, not for what happens when they are thrown into a group or raid situation when they receive outside buffs and gain equipment to improve themselves.Sneering and calling 16% Double Attack as worthless is a gross injustice to what it is, which is increasing your auto attack DPS, your largest DPS source, by 16%.How to reach 95% Double Attack with 40% Base:GBH: <b>12%</b> SoD Kama: <b>5%</b>Battlerager Hat: <b>3%</b>Fortissimo: <b>10%</b>Illusionary Arm: <b>25%</b><b>All together equals: 55%</b>Combined with that ability is <b>95%</b>That is 95% Double Attack at all times. I do not know a single person who would call that balanced. I do not know a single person who would not say it would not need to be changed. And do not have any doubts, the ability to give said class that much double attack would definitely gain the class the priority to be buffed with IA. And what are you going to change? The weapons, armor and buffs? Or the AA ability that allows such numbers to be reached?Balancing should always be done from the top down, giving ways for all levels of play to be competitive. Adding something that makes the lower end exceptionally more powerful than anything else on its level of play will just extend to a greater and greater level of power by the time it reaches the top end.

[MrFurious99]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is very clear by the direction the game is going that Zerkers and Guardians will be out dps'ing brawlers for the foreseeable future. The truth is this does not matter because at the end of the day the Bruiser is a tank class not a dps class. The Bruiser class will live and die based on how well it can tank. In this regard it is our EoF AA's that are under powered. Adding some mitigation AA as well as an uncontested avoidance AA that gives the bruiser at least a kite shield would put the bruiser back in the running as a serious raid tank. It has been said again and again about how absurd it is that the mitigation tanks get more uncontested avoidance than the avoidance tank. This can all be fixed if they just give us some AA that makes Bruisers avoidance and mitigation equal to all other tanks. </blockquote>See, I think of the class as a DPS class.. regardless though, you are right in the fact that we were a branch of the fighter tree and yet have near zero tools to tank effectively in the current raiding environment.  There are those that will say "well duh" and that's fine.  Me personally, I'd rather be DPS than tank anyway, but getting smacked upside the head by heroic adds accompanying an epic just makes me question even they even know what they're doing with the brawler classes.  Clearly the whole uncontested avoidance needs to be looked it.  Specifically, if we have 0% when we aren't in defensive stance, why should a warrior run around with 18% or so in offensive stance.

[Couching]

Exactly.For tanking, either giving us uncontested avoidance in offensive as other plate tanks or removing their uncontested avoidance when they are in offensive stance. Besides, revamp brawler tree so that we can have similar tank lines as warrior such as boosting our mitigation, uncontested avoidance and hate.For dps, removing those damage proc aa since it didn't scale with weapons. Our brawler dps lines should be scaled with weapons as other classes.

[Novusod]

<cite>MrFurious99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is very clear by the direction the game is going that Zerkers and Guardians will be out dps'ing brawlers for the foreseeable future. The truth is this does not matter because at the end of the day the Bruiser is a tank class not a dps class. The Bruiser class will live and die based on how well it can tank. In this regard it is our EoF AA's that are under powered. Adding some mitigation AA as well as an uncontested avoidance AA that gives the bruiser at least a kite shield would put the bruiser back in the running as a serious raid tank. It has been said again and again about how absurd it is that the mitigation tanks get more uncontested avoidance than the avoidance tank. This can all be fixed if they just give us some AA that makes Bruisers avoidance and mitigation equal to all other tanks. </blockquote>See, I think of the class as a DPS class.. regardless though, you are right in the fact that we were a branch of the fighter tree and yet have near zero tools to tank effectively in the current raiding environment.  There are those that will say "well duh" and that's fine.  Me personally, I'd rather be DPS than tank anyway, but getting smacked upside the head by heroic adds accompanying an epic just makes me question even they even know what they're doing with the brawler classes.  Clearly the whole uncontested avoidance needs to be looked it.  Specifically, if we have 0% when we aren't in defensive stance, why should a warrior run around with 18% or so in offensive stance.</blockquote>The bruiser is not a DPS class and it will be pertinently clear we are not a DPS class at level 80 when the gap between us and the true dps classes becomes an unbridgeable gulf. Also the rumor is that our new ability is a tanking CA called divide and conquer that pulls off adds from the main tank. The bruiser will live or die on their ability to tank and devs to fix avoidance tanking.

[MrFurious99]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrFurious99 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is very clear by the direction the game is going that Zerkers and Guardians will be out dps'ing brawlers for the foreseeable future. The truth is this does not matter because at the end of the day the Bruiser is a tank class not a dps class. The Bruiser class will live and die based on how well it can tank. In this regard it is our EoF AA's that are under powered. Adding some mitigation AA as well as an uncontested avoidance AA that gives the bruiser at least a kite shield would put the bruiser back in the running as a serious raid tank. It has been said again and again about how absurd it is that the mitigation tanks get more uncontested avoidance than the avoidance tank. This can all be fixed if they just give us some AA that makes Bruisers avoidance and mitigation equal to all other tanks. </blockquote>See, I think of the class as a DPS class.. regardless though, you are right in the fact that we were a branch of the fighter tree and yet have near zero tools to tank effectively in the current raiding environment.  There are those that will say "well duh" and that's fine.  Me personally, I'd rather be DPS than tank anyway, but getting smacked upside the head by heroic adds accompanying an epic just makes me question even they even know what they're doing with the brawler classes.  Clearly the whole uncontested avoidance needs to be looked it.  Specifically, if we have 0% when we aren't in defensive stance, why should a warrior run around with 18% or so in offensive stance.</blockquote>The bruiser is not a DPS class and it will be pertinently clear we are not a DPS class at level 80 when the gap between us and the true dps classes becomes an unbridgeable gulf. Also the rumor is that our new ability is a tanking CA called divide and conquer that pulls off adds from the main tank. The bruiser will live or die on their ability to tank and devs to fix avoidance tanking.</blockquote>Clearly you and I have very different ways of playing the same class. I'm not going to get into a lengthly debate over which one of us is right because quite frankly both of us are.  I feel that you are going by an outdated archtype system that SOE abandoned to define what Bruisers are.. but then that is just my opinion.  Also, without going into it, because I cannot, you're wrong about that tanking CA and what it does or doesn't do.  Well, not 100% wrong, but enough that you aren't understanding how craptacular it is.

[Xanrn]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>Balancing classes only upon what they are capable of with their own buffs and no equipment? You cannot balance something by isolating it from the factors used to determine its success. If that is the case then all of these arguments of how something parses in raids is invalid, we should be measuring what needs to be balanced by how well a class can parse solo, soloing, with no outside buffs and only mastercrafted weapons.This balances the classes only for that situation, not for what happens when they are thrown into a group or raid situation when they receive outside buffs and gain equipment to improve themselves.Sneering and calling 16% Double Attack as worthless is a gross injustice to what it is, which is increasing your auto attack DPS, your largest DPS source, by 16%.How to reach 95% Double Attack with 40% Base:GBH: <b>12%</b> SoD Kama: <b>5%</b>Battlerager Hat: <b>3%</b>Fortissimo: <b>10%</b>Illusionary Arm: <b>25%</b><b>All together equals: 55%</b>Combined with that ability is <b>95%</b>That is 95% Double Attack at all times. I do not know a single person who would call that balanced. I do not know a single person who would not say it would not need to be changed. And do not have any doubts, the ability to give said class that much double attack would definitely gain the class the priority to be buffed with IA. And what are you going to change? The weapons, armor and buffs? Or the AA ability that allows such numbers to be reached?Balancing should always be done from the top down, giving ways for all levels of play to be competitive. Adding something that makes the lower end exceptionally more powerful than anything else on its level of play will just extend to a greater and greater level of power by the time it reaches the top end.</blockquote><p>Well screw this for an execise is stupidity and crap logic. Got better things to do with my time.</p>

[Siatfallen]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>How to reach 95% Double Attack with 40% Base:GBH: <b>12%</b> SoD Kama: <b>5%</b>Battlerager Hat: <b>3%</b>Fortissimo: <b>10%</b>Illusionary Arm: <b>25%</b><b>All together equals: 55%</b>Combined with that ability is <b>95%</b></blockquote>So... With more or less the best gear in the game, brawlers would actually be able to reach 95% doubleattack, and you cry nerf on that? Fair enough - the 35% double attack comes from Illusionary Arm and Fortissimo, which is something all classes in the game can get. As far as I understand, double attack only affects the main hand weapon to boot.Hence, given how many other melee classes get double attack built into their AA lines, I fail to see the problem. The brawler-specific bonuses in the above would account for a grand total of 8%. How is that a game-breaking difference, again?- If you really want to argue the point, you could state that the EoF legendary set gives 2% double attack at 3 pieces... And we're at a grand total of 10%.

[mkhsu01]

It's debatable that giving brawler 40% double attack is overpowered or not.But it's pointless and ridiculous if the reason is that t brawler can get 95% DA with group buff and innate 40% DA.Why? Because warrior can get 100% DA as well from group buffs, IAs can stack on the same player.Generally speaking, brawler isn't going to get IA in most cases in raids. Illy always gives IA to ranger, assassin or brig/swashy rather than brawler.

[Beldin_]

<cite>mkhsu01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>But it's pointless and ridiculous if the reason is that t brawler can get 95% DA with group buff and innate 40% DA.Why? Because warrior can get 100% DA as well from group buffs, IAs can stack on the same player.</blockquote><p>Its also ridiculus to just think about that, because else every character has to be nerfed to oblivion just for the reason that uber-raider X with these and that items and buffs can maybe hit a cap.</p><p>Yeah ... rangers have selfbuffed 60-70 haste .. that has to be 0 because buffed and with this stuff they hit 200% </p><p>And of course monks .. they have even more haste .. </p>

[Ramius613]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. 3.5-4% dbl atk per point. which gives us 28-32% dbl atk at max. Since DA DOES affect both hands, we would effectively have 56-64% dbl atk if DW. Combined with our self haste, which will increase with the new CAs it will bring us closer to balance on the dps front. There does need to be a lot more done on tanking and AAs to have us truly balanced.

[CorpseGoddess]

And now, for something completely different...I've been playing this game for about two years now.  Let me say right off that I'm not necessarily a player that rabidly pays attention to what I'm parsing or my specs in relation to other toons in the raid/group.  I'm a fairly casual player (although my hubby might dispute that), and at the end of the day I play this game to have fun.I have a 70 bruiser, and she's my main toon.  I LOVE my bruiser.  Lovelovelove.  I am not a subtle person, so melee has always been the first choice for me.  When I started playing this game, I gave the warrior classes all a try and eventually stuck with my brawler.  Why?  First and foremost, she's a joy to play.  I love the combat abilities and the interface.  I love the way she looks fighting!  I ADORE the fact that I could solo my way to level 50 (not quickly, mind you, but speed-leveling is not a desire for me).I spend a lot of time teaming up with my fury friend and we do amazingly well.  I have tanked groups an inordinate amount of times---sometimes taking over for an "official" tank and doing (not to ring my own bell here) a better job.  I've enjoyed tanking and I've enjoyed just being the "Here, punch this until it dies" person.I honestly can't speak to all the numbers and specs being bandied about, as I'm not the kind of player who pays close attention to that sort of thing.  But as I got closer to 70, I did notice that I was being treated as a bit of the redheaded stepchild---"Well okay, we'll take the bruiser on the raid because there's nobody else we need more available".The main thing I love most about my bruiser is the flexibility, and I feel *that's* where I'd like to see improvements made.  Make me a little more valuable to the group.  Give me scout or evac.  Give me a few---even a couple!---more group buffs.  Or group invis.  I think the brawler class is the most versatile, and I'd love to see that expanded.  I don't necessarily want to be only a tank, or only dps.  I want to be a bruiser---the best all-around toon to play.  Again, I'm not an uber-player.  I'm not out to have the best gear or get the highest parse.  What I am after is the experience and enjoyment that playing my bruiser gives me, and quite honestly, SOE can't take that away from me---or give it to another player.