Shards of Godplanes - What Happened?

[Lodrelhai]

Shard of Fear is on Test now.  We know the Shard of Hate is coming too.  Just pieces of these planes, not the whole place.  I've seen it suggested that these are pocket dimensions, used by the gods to allow a foothold on Norrath/collect power from worshipers.  But what if these are Planar Shards because that's all that's left?I'm starting to think the Rending and/or the Shattering weren't just physical, Norrath events.  I seem to remember some mention (though I can't remember which NPC or when) that these floating islands in DoF and KoS are actually pieces from the Plane of Sky.  Whether because they were unable to maintain their planes due to lack of a power base once they cut contact with their worshipers, or whether something big happened among the gods, my theory is that the cataclysms on Norrath were actually overflow/fallout/reflections of similar happenings in the god Planes.We know the droags used to have contact with Veeshan, but she went silent.  Then Kerafym stepped up.  Now he's missing too.  Even when they stepped away from it, the gods had a vested interest in Norrath - as shown by the fact that many of them didn't completely step away.  They weren't happy when Veeshan tried to claim it solely as her own; I doubt they'd be any happier with Kerafym trying to destroy it.Anyone else thinking war of the gods?

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shard of Fear is on Test now.  We know the Shard of Hate is coming too.  Just pieces of these planes, not the whole place.  I've seen it suggested that these are pocket dimensions, used by the gods to allow a foothold on Norrath/collect power from worshipers.  But what if these are Planar Shards because that's all that's left?I'm starting to think the Rending and/or the Shattering weren't just physical, Norrath events.  I seem to remember some mention (though I can't remember which NPC or when) that these floating islands in DoF and KoS are actually pieces from the Plane of Sky.  Whether because they were unable to maintain their planes due to lack of a power base once they cut contact with their worshipers, or whether something big happened among the gods, my theory is that the cataclysms on Norrath were actually overflow/fallout/reflections of similar happenings in the god Planes.We know the droags used to have contact with Veeshan, but she went silent.  Then Kerafym stepped up.  Now he's missing too.  Even when they stepped away from it, the gods had a vested interest in Norrath - as shown by the fact that many of them didn't completely step away.  They weren't happy when Veeshan tried to claim it solely as her own; I doubt they'd be any happier with Kerafym trying to destroy it.Anyone else thinking war of the gods?</blockquote><p>Nope.</p><p>They shouldn't even be giving us the Shard of Hate or Fear in the first place. The Gods swore up and down that they would never allow another Planes of Power to happen. The reason they lost so much power over thier planes is because us mortals invaded them and killed the god's physical avatar over and over.</p><p>...Besides. A plane is impossible for one mortal to completely envision. The plane is whatever that god want's it to be, and anything we see is merely a fraction of what could be. That one Aviak at Tenebrous Tangle's Antonica portal states this.</p>

[Nocturnal Aby]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That one Aviak at Tenebrous Tangle's Antonica portal states this.</p></blockquote>Jabber Longwind

[Ama]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shard of Fear is on Test now.  We know the Shard of Hate is coming too.  Just pieces of these planes, not the whole place.  I've seen it suggested that these are pocket dimensions, used by the gods to allow a foothold on Norrath/collect power from worshipers.  But what if these are Planar Shards because that's all that's left?I'm starting to think the Rending and/or the Shattering weren't just physical, Norrath events.  I seem to remember some mention (though I can't remember which NPC or when) that these floating islands in DoF and KoS are actually pieces from the Plane of Sky.  Whether because they were unable to maintain their planes due to lack of a power base once they cut contact with their worshipers, or whether something big happened among the gods, my theory is that the cataclysms on Norrath were actually overflow/fallout/reflections of similar happenings in the god Planes.We know the droags used to have contact with Veeshan, but she went silent.  Then Kerafym stepped up.  Now he's missing too.  Even when they stepped away from it, the gods had a vested interest in Norrath - as shown by the fact that many of them didn't completely step away.  They weren't happy when Veeshan tried to claim it solely as her own; I doubt they'd be any happier with Kerafym trying to destroy it.Anyone else thinking war of the gods?</blockquote><p>Nope.</p><p>They shouldn't even be giving us the Shard of Hate or Fear in the first place. The Gods swore up and down that they would never allow another Planes of Power to happen. The reason they lost so much power over thier planes is because us mortals invaded them and killed the god's physical avatar over and over.</p><p>...Besides. <b>A plane is impossible for one mortal to completely envision. The plane is whatever that god want's it to be, and anything we see is merely a fraction of what could be.</b> That one Aviak at Tenebrous Tangle's Antonica portal states this.</p></blockquote>Well perhaps that is why the gods invisioned these "Tiny" planes.  They are giving mortals a farse so to speak to keep us away from their true planes of existance.  As some have said it is hard to peak into the mind of a diety and i'm betting the gods maybe crazy smart but not stupid.

[Daine]

Or maybe these are accidents.  Perhaps the Shattering DID affect the planes and gods as well.  If the KoS zones are fragments of the Plane of Sky then by Cusa's same logic we should never have gotten those zones either.  If the gods didn't control these fragments, if they simply broke away, then it wouldn't matter what they WANTED because they didn't GET what they wanted.On a completely unbased but inquisitive side theory maybe Kerafyrm did cause the Shattering (as per old theories) by having a war with the gods...that's why they were afraid of him in the first place, he could upset their balance and even kill them.  If he can kill gods then why wouldn't he be able to rip open their planes?  Kill a guy and the pain is over; drive him out of his home, break it apart, or infest it with mortals and you're opening a bigger can of worms to torture him with.

[Meniphisto]

Don't you access the Shard of Fear from the Portal in Feerrott? If so, then I think CT still has some power over his shard. Wasn't it during his god quest preview that we went around gathering souls to power up the machine so that the "Fear Creatures" could come out? Maybe we powered it a bit too much so that we could enter =PAs for the shattering of the planes, I don't recall reading anywhere that the gods left their own planes, especially Inny and CT. Unless of course Inny was gone, which gave Mayong the perfect time to enter Hate and take whatever items that he wanted. But instead, I think that these shards are more of a "These mortals keep killing our avatars that we sent down to help our followers... let's show them a bit more of our true power. Then maybe they'll back off"

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite> <blockquote>...Besides. <b>A plane is impossible for one mortal to completely envision. The plane is whatever that god want's it to be, and anything we see is merely a fraction of what could be.</b> That one Aviak at Tenebrous Tangle's Antonica portal states this.</blockquote>Well perhaps that is why the gods invisioned these "Tiny" planes.  They are giving mortals a farse so to speak to keep us away from their true planes of existance.  As some have said it is hard to peak into the mind of a diety and i'm betting the gods maybe crazy smart but not stupid. </blockquote><p>If that were the case, then don't you think they'd just as well leave everything just completely sealed off and not decieve us or anything like that?</p><p>Maybe it really is a case of history repeating itself, and us mortals actually found a way back in. Maybe the gods aren't intentionally letting us back in.</p>

[teddyboy4]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>If that were the case, then don't you think they'd just as well leave everything just completely sealed off and not decieve us or anything like that?</p><p>Maybe it really is a case of history repeating itself, and us mortals actually found a way back in. Maybe the gods aren't intentionally letting us back in.</p></blockquote>I believe that this MUST be the case. The gods are gods for a reason, they are NOT stupid. The whole reason they withdrew their influence in the first place is b/c the mortals invaded their planes and were weakening them by killing their creatures, followers and avatars in those planes. I don't believe the gods would purposefully make the same mistake again. I don't believe that us gaining access to parts of the planes is the work of the pantheon.

[Lodrelhai]

I agree with Cusa that we shouldn't even be able to get back into the god planes -  that we can get into even these shards is part of what makes me think the gods aren't in complete control of them.  Menphisto mentioned how we went around gathering souls so the fear creatures can come out - why would Cazic need our help to get his own creatures from his plane to ours, if he's in complete control of it?So maybe this shard broke off from the main plane.  Maybe Cazic needed our help to get some of his people back.  Zerfall mentioned in the music thread that Dread and Fright both have theme music - haven't been in the Shard on Test, but maybe they were part of the reason Cazic wanted us helping out in the first place - two of his main minions were trapped in a shard from his realm he couldn't get to himself.

[zerfall]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with Cusa that we shouldn't even be able to get back into the god planes -  that we can get into even these shards is part of what makes me think the gods aren't in complete control of them.  Menphisto mentioned how we went around gathering souls so the fear creatures can come out - why would Cazic need our help to get his own creatures from his plane to ours, if he's in complete control of it?So maybe this shard broke off from the main plane.  Maybe Cazic needed our help to get some of his people back.  Zerfall mentioned in the music thread that Dread and Fright both have theme music - haven't been in the Shard on Test, but maybe they were part of the reason Cazic wanted us helping out in the first place - two of his main minions were trapped in a shard from his realm he couldn't get to himself.</blockquote>Good thinking, I haven't posted here yet because I haven't really had anything to contribute, but going along your lines, perhaps Mayong had something to do with the Shard of Hate splitting off from the main plane when he journeyed there to find some artifacts/ascend to godhood (I realize his ascension may have been after the time split, but it doesn't mean he didn't attempt it in the EQ2 timeline, certainly his aspirations existed before and after).The idea that Cazic and Inny don't have complete control of their planes, or that these shards split off from the main one do have precedent if you are open to the possibility that stuff may have occurred that we are not necessarily aware of (my possible theory of Mayong and Hate), or weren't aware of the ramifications of what we were doing at the time (gathering souls to release creatures from the Shard of Fear).You may need a grain of salt to go with it, but I'm hoping that at least some of what is going on is explained somehow when the Shards become active/available.

[Hukklebuk]

There is more going on than us just doing the whole PoP ransacking bit again.  The Gods have returned for a reason that doesn't break the lore.aNPC 72700 Avatar of Flames:Avatar of Flames/a says, "As much as you or Civean may wish to believe I saved Rathmana out in the desert for the purpose of providing an heir to act as my host, you are both misguided. I need no such body. I appear as I wish, when I wish."(1192074502)[Wed Oct 10 23:48:22 2007] aNPC 72700 Avatar of Flames:Avatar of Flames/a says, "I have long been absent from affairs here, and I do intend to remedy this, as do the others. But we have returned for another purpose, one which will be revealed in time."(1192074519)[Wed Oct 10 23:48:39 2007] aNPC 72700 Avatar of Flames:Avatar of Flames/a says, "<b>The time of a new dawn for Norrath is approaching, one where respect for the planes is much more important than the glory and power one may seek to strip from them."</b>(1192074536)[Wed Oct 10 23:48:56 2007] aNPC 72700 Avatar of Flames:Avatar of Flames/a says, "Take this symbol. Wear it with pride. Spread my thoughts to others, and be wise with the power I entrust unto you. I have other matters to attend to for now, ________________and with that, the projection takes off...My take on this, Something is happening that apparently is large enough to give the Gods of Norrath pause, and to cause them to withdraw their posture regarding Norrath.Wonder what's comin........

[quamdar]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite> <blockquote>...Besides. <b>A plane is impossible for one mortal to completely envision. The plane is whatever that god want's it to be, and anything we see is merely a fraction of what could be.</b> That one Aviak at Tenebrous Tangle's Antonica portal states this.</blockquote>Well perhaps that is why the gods invisioned these "Tiny" planes.  They are giving mortals a farse so to speak to keep us away from their true planes of existance.  As some have said it is hard to peak into the mind of a diety and i'm betting the gods maybe crazy smart but not stupid. </blockquote><p>If that were the case, then don't you think they'd just as well leave everything just completely sealed off and not decieve us or anything like that?</p><p>Maybe it really is a case of history repeating itself, and us mortals actually found a way back in. Maybe the gods aren't intentionally letting us back in.</p></blockquote>my first thought was that they have some kind of reason of their own for letting us back in but don't want to give us full access to their planes, hence the "shards" instead of the "plane of fear" itself.  the gods of the shards we are entering (hate and fear) were ones that were in favor of wiping out norrath totally (i think, been a while since i read the lore) but maybe it is a ploy to get us to pillage just parts of their planes so that they can try to convice the other gods that wiping out norrath is a good idea.who knows though, should find out when the zones are released though i would think.  or at least when RoK comes out.

[Cusashorn]

Nah that was Rallos Zek and Solusek Ro who wanted to destroy the planet. Innoruuk and CT certainly wouldn't object if the end of the world did come though.

[Trepan]

Like faeries, God's without believers die.   This has left them in a bit of a pickle.  They made a pact where they're supposedly hands off Norrath now... that makes it hard to impress people enough to make them new worshipers, even with zealous Avatars proclaiming their godhood.  (Yeah right, what god?  I can't see him.  How do I know you didn't just cook that story up on your own?  My grandparents were ignorant schmucks, and their stories simply that, etc etc).Their pact was that they wouldn't directly mess with Norrath, correct?   Wouldn't a little pocket dimension used to lure in adventurers and impress them with godly might get around that loophole?BANG, instant believers, worship or not.

[quamdar]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nah that was Rallos Zek and Solusek Ro who wanted to destroy the planet. Innoruuk and CT certainly wouldn't object if the end of the world did come though.</blockquote>oh, thought it was more than just rallos and solusek for some reason that were kind of whispering and plotting after the agreement.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>Trepan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like faeries, God's without believers die.   This has left them in a bit of a pickle.  They made a pact where they're supposedly hands off Norrath now... that makes it hard to impress people enough to make them new worshipers, even with zealous Avatars proclaiming their godhood.  (Yeah right, what god?  I can't see him.  How do I know you didn't just cook that story up on your own?  My grandparents were ignorant schmucks, and their stories simply that, etc etc).Their pact was that they wouldn't directly mess with Norrath, correct?   Wouldn't a little pocket dimension used to lure in adventurers and impress them with godly might get around that loophole?BANG, instant believers, worship or not.</blockquote>That's not true. It hasn't been proven or hinted that a god cannot exist without a worshipper.

[Coniaric]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trepan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like faeries, God's without believers die.   This has left them in a bit of a pickle.  They made a pact where they're supposedly hands off Norrath now... that makes it hard to impress people enough to make them new worshipers, even with zealous Avatars proclaiming their godhood.  (Yeah right, what god?  I can't see him.  How do I know you didn't just cook that story up on your own?  My grandparents were ignorant schmucks, and their stories simply that, etc etc).Their pact was that they wouldn't directly mess with Norrath, correct?   Wouldn't a little pocket dimension used to lure in adventurers and impress them with godly might get around that loophole?BANG, instant believers, worship or not.</blockquote>That's not true. It hasn't been proven or hinted that a god cannot exist without a worshipper.</blockquote><p>Perhaps not. One thing that is likely true ... as a god lose power, their plane (and demi-plane) weakened and faded altogether. It has been mentioned in the Tome of Destiny way back at the beginning. Also parts of the planes may collapsed into the reality like the Plane of Sky did as shown in KoS expansion.</p><p>So ... is the Shards intentional or it's an accidental leak? ... *shrug*</p>

[Sartredes]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trepan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like faeries, God's without believers die.   This has left them in a bit of a pickle.  They made a pact where they're supposedly hands off Norrath now... that makes it hard to impress people enough to make them new worshipers, even with zealous Avatars proclaiming their godhood.  (Yeah right, what god?  I can't see him.  How do I know you didn't just cook that story up on your own?  My grandparents were ignorant schmucks, and their stories simply that, etc etc).Their pact was that they wouldn't directly mess with Norrath, correct?   Wouldn't a little pocket dimension used to lure in adventurers and impress them with godly might get around that loophole?BANG, instant believers, worship or not.</blockquote>That's not true. It hasn't been proven or hinted that a god cannot exist without a worshipper.</blockquote>Actually, since the gods existed before the races, it's proof they don't need worshipers to exist. They just need the Nameless to believe they exist.

[Trepan]

Thats what they've told us, that they were around before us.  How much truth can we put into the books of the ancient times.  Vhalen is a slippery rascal.*shrug*  I like the theory  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rainmare]

I think the Tome od Destiny gives the reasons why we have 'shards' of Fear and Hate.Cazic said at the counsel that he thought the solution was to 'let his influence grow, and fear would keep the mortals at bay'.Inny said it too. he thought they should stand back, and let the mortals turn on each other, let Hate bring the mortals down.I think we're about to see a rebirth of a Child of Hate. the first time Inny opened his realm, it was to retrieve Lanys from the battle of bloody kitchor. with Neriak exposed, maybe Innoruuk has a similar idea in mind again, to bring his 'children' back fully into his service. Or the scroll in Neriak, the one that supposedly was able to bring about a direct line of communication to Inny was used, and the shard is the result. the 'audience chamber' to see Inny so to speak.Cazic's reason is probably exactly what it was before. let them see a bit of Fear, make mortals afraid to enter the planes through it. hoping that the shard of fear will work like a pandora's box for mortals.Now that you know what's in these realms...do you really want to try your luck? kind of deal.

[Nocturnal Aby]

<p>It seems like people like to think that the planes are weakening because the power of the gods is dwindling.  A very logical and probable theory, however, equally probable is the theory that the planes of the gods have grown so massive, so large, in a way, that they are beginning to reach an unmanageable size for the deities, and therefore beginning to leak into the mortal plane.  Without the threat of the mortal invasions, the power of the gods grew so much that their planes expanded beyond their control.</p><p>I'm sure it's not a theory that many would like, but, as I said, it's just as equally probable.</p><p>Another thing that was mentioned in the council of the gods that goes against them requiring mortals in order to exist is the fact that Rallos Zek and Solusek Ro wanted to simply kills us all and be done with the problem.  For some reason, I don't see that as a viable alternative if we are required for their existance.</p>

[Cusashorn]

Too large for an omnipotent being's own control?

[Nocturnal Aby]

<p>The gods are far from omnipotent, we have seen this by the Rallosian invasion of the Planes, our own invasion of the Planes, and their fear of the Ungod Zeboxxoruk.  I don't know many knowledgable people who think the gods are omnipotent.  They are, however, far more powerful than any mortal.  Another possibility is that the gods of simply lost interest in their planes, or at least the parts of their planes that mortals can interact with.  We truly know little about the nature of the planes.</p><p>  We know that how we percieve them is not how the gods percieve them, as is evident by description we have of some of the planes (I could list several quotes to support this from the Maps of Myrist, there are other sources that have similar descriptions, but I don't know where I would find them right off).</p><p>  We know that the various planes are shaped by the will of the planes reigning deity/deities.  We also know that even among the deities, there is a Heirarchy (Elemental, Influence, sub, demi), and that all of the deities were formed by the Nameless in an effort to experience existance. The only place I have heard claims of omnipotence is by foolish mortals espousing the might of their patron god.  Foolish, I say, since the such things have been proven to be untrue.</p><p>  That said, the true might of the gods is unknown.  The limits to their power have not been truly experienced.  We have crashed through the barriers they erected to seperate them from us, but that does not show the limit of their power, simply the degree they underestimated their own creations.  We've seen them wipe out almost entire races without batting an eye, and we've seen them curse several races for entire ages.  We've seen them re-erect barriers that closed off their presence from even the most talented mage, and dedicated priest.  And we've seen them rip apart the tectonic configuration of a planet.</p><p>They are not omnipotent, but the scope of their power is not entirely known to us mortals.  In my own humble opinion, this is as it should be.</p>

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Too large for an omnipotent being's own control?</blockquote>I agree with Nocturnal in this - I don't believe the gods are omnipotent, even within their own spheres of influence.  Setting aside the mere mortals invading the planes and killing the gods (or representations of them), there's still evidence for this.  Karana the Storm Lord was held prisoner within his own stronghold - hardly something that suggests he had complete and absolute control of his plane.  And what about the circumstances when their spheres of influence overlap?  Bertie released his plagues on the Karana Plains, one of which was an insect swarm (god, I loved those).  But insects are living creatures; so, for that matter, are bacteria.  Wouldn't they fall under Tunare's influence, allowing her to neutralize the insect threat, if not the illness itself?The problem with omnipotence is that it is power without limits.  Simply the fact that we have more than one god places limits on them.  The only one who comes close to omnipotence is the Nameless.  In this, I think the gods of Norrath are more like Tolkien's Ainur or Valar, beings of great power under a Being of Great Power, created by that one's will.  They, in turn, have been granted the power to create, and rule over what they create, but neither their power nor their command is absolute.Looking at this from the standpoint that the gods are not the be-all and end-all of their planes of influence, it's very easy to imagine that something happened which caused what they did control, or parts of it, to fragment and drift out of their domain.

[Cakassis]

<p>The God's don't even have full control over what they create.  The Marr Diety quest reveals that the Marr twins originally created the minotaurs, but didn't properly... maintain... them and they fell under the sway of other gods.</p><p>FWIW I think the gods in EQ are a LOT weaker than they want us mortals to believe, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that the shards of Fear and Hate are parts of their respective planes which their gods are unable to close off.</p>

[einar4]

<p>The gods are not omnipotent, hence the planes of old themselves being invaded by the powerful of Norrath. The gods are most powerful when on their home planes, and least powerful when possessing or empowering avatars. This is pretty much how polytheistic religions work. They have extreme power, beyond anything that regular material plane dwellers can conceive of, but they are far from omnipotent or omniscient. <b><i>Karana scowled. "Preposterous. It has been proven that any one of us alone can be overcome by the mortals. It is underestimating them that has brought us to this place, that has forced us to become allies in action if not in principle. But the solution must be one that we can all agree to."  </i></b></p><p>And then: </p><p><b><i>"We don't have time for that," Solusek Ro asserted. "The demi-planes are already weakened--in fact, some have simply faded from existence, as our powers have grown too thin to sustain them. We must refocus our resources and strike back while we still can." </i></b></p><p>The gods cut off Norrath from the planes because they had been weakened by the invasions into their planes and took the time to strengthen themselves again. They feared for their own existence. This is not a sign of omnipotence. The shards could be all that remains of the planes, or even just a reflection - not unlike a shadow - of the planes themselves into the material plane. </p><p><b><i>Quellious continued. "We all agree the mortals have gained too much power, but there are non-destructive ways to correct this. There is also a way for us to regain our strength, though it means removing our influence from this world for a time. But if we all agree--including those who sit upon the greater wheel of Elemental Power--it could save us all."  </i></b></p><p>One needs to try to get away from the Judeo-Christian concepts of Gods when working in the fantasy realm. However you can go to the pantheons of ancient Egypt, Greece, the Gods of the Hindu, the Viking and Celtic pantheons, etc, for a general idea of the fantasy concept of gods. These gods have their petty squabbles, vanity, pride... they are beings much like humans. While Hubris and Ate are concepts that originated in ancient Greece, the gods themselves often paid the price of hubris as well, as the stories such as the fate of Loki and that of Prometheus told. </p>